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At Large
Europe in Demographic Denial
An even bigger form of denial than about the causes of Europe’s financial collapse.
If there is one word that captures many Europeans’ response to the continent’s financial crisis, it is denial. Witness the description by the editors of France’s newspaper-of-record, Le Monde, of France’s S&P credit-downgrade on January 13 as “un non-événement financier.” The fact that this “non-event” will increase France’s borrowing-costs (not to mention those of the EU’s own bailout fund) at a time when France’s government is already struggling to contain spending apparently escaped Le Monde’s attention.
This habit of ignoring reality, however, goes beyond blinkered reactions to one-off occurrences. It’s also reflected in many Europeans’ perceptible inability to acknowledge some of the deeper dynamics driving the crisis.
Here most of us think of unaffordable welfare states and other sinking ships to which many Europeans cling like limpets. But there is one element at work in Europe’s crisis that even fewer Europeans will openly acknowledge: the economic forces set in motion by Europe’s slow-motion population implosion.
The demographic facts concerning European population-trends are clear. The replacement level for a population (what keeps it stable) is a fertility-rate of 2.1 children per woman. According to the UN, the average fertility-rate of European women was 1.53 between 2005 and 2010. The figures for Greece (1.46), Spain (1.41), Portugal (1.36), Italy (1.38), and Germany (1.36) were especially depressing. France (1.97), Britain (1.83), and Sweden (1.9) did marginally better. Ireland alone managed to attain the 2.1 threshold. All these figures represented decline from 1955-1960 rates: Greece (2.27), Spain (2.7), Portugal (3.29), Italy (2.29), Germany (2.3), France (2.7), Britain (2.49), Sweden (2.23), and Ireland (3.58).
These developments translate into more old people, fewer young people, and, eventually, shrinking populations. But it also shifts what’s called “the dependency ratio”: the ratio of retirees per member of the labor force. On some estimates, Italy, Spain and Germany will have very high dependency ratios by 2050: every two workers will be supporting one retiree. Those working will also have to pay either greater contributions or higher taxes to fund existing pension systems.
The present situation is further worsened by another ominous trend: the growing exodus of tens of thousands of young EU citizens searching for work to Latin America, North America, and Asia. Similarly, hundreds of thousands of young immigrants to the EU from developing nations are heading home. The odds that many will return to Europe in the near-future are dim.
These facts have made some Europeans willing to ponder the necessity of labor-market and welfare reform, not least because those countries that have weathered the crisis better than others (e.g., Germany and Sweden) actually implemented such changes in the 2000s. Getting Europeans to talk publicly about the continent’s population-trends and their economic consequences, however, is a different matter.
Why? One reason is that many Europeans have long been in thrall to the over-population gospel. Long before Paul Erhlich’s The Population Bomb (1968) — whose doomsday future-scenarios of a world devastated by famines, mass disease, and social unrest unleashed by overpopulation never materialized — numerous European economists had bought into this thesis.
In 1798, the Anglican vicar and one of the first modern economists, Thomas Malthus, published his Essay on the Principle of Population. This argued that growing populations would produce an increasing labor-supply. The result, Malthus insisted, would be lower wages and therefore mass poverty. “The power of population,” he claimed, “is so superior to the power of the Earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race.” Another English philosopher-economist, John Stuart Mill, was so convinced by Malthusian arguments that he actually spent time in London parks distributing birth-control pamphlets to bemused onlookers.
By the 20th century, plenty of other prominent European economists were getting into the act. Knut Wicksell, a Swede whose thought was immensely influential upon often otherwise-opposed economic schools of thought, loudly proclaimed depopulation’s economic benefits. Likewise the German economist Wilhelm Röpke conjured up visions of a world overrun by teeming masses unless birth rates radically declined. (Oddly enough, John Maynard Keynes was one of the few economists to abandon his earlier Malthusian views and argue — to the British Eugenics Society no less! — that population-growth helped create demand and thereby fuel prosperity.)
But it’s not just economists who have propagated anti-natalist positions. For decades, European governments have been pushing population-control programs upon developing nations (including trying to force them to legalize abortion) by making foreign-aid dependent upon adopting such policies. The phrase “neo-colonialism” comes to mind.
Then there’s the Swiss theologian Hans Küng who — as if locked in a 1970s time warp — avowed in 2010 that the Catholic Church’s teaching on contraception was facilitating “overpopulation.” And, as always, we have environmentalists adamantly maintaining that population growth is putting the planet’s future at risk.
The existential scale of Europe’s present economic crisis may, however, at last be providing space for those Europeans unconvinced by neo-Malthusian orthodoxies to crack the consensus on these matters. One such figure is Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, the Italian economist who heads the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (otherwise known as “the Vatican Bank”).
In article after article, Tedeschi has observed that graying and dwindling European populations imply not only reduced demand but also higher tax burdens on those who are young and working. The resulting shrinkage of disposable income discourages those of child-bearing years from having more children. This in turn gradually narrows the dependency ratio, thereby creating even greater strains on Europe’s already-tottering welfare states and over-loaded tax base.
So while deficit-reduction and welfare reform matters, perhaps the biggest long-term test for Europe is to break the vicious cycle fueled by population aging and decline that could worsen the already-bleak fiscal future for young Europeans. But this will require many Europeans to do something they find even more difficult than scaling back welfare programs. And that is to break through the politically correct taboos that presently strangle objective discussion of Europe’s population challenges, and concede their miscalculation of the economics of population.
I’m not holding my breath.
About the Author
Samuel Gregg is Research Director at the Acton Institute. He has authored several books including On Ordered Liberty, his prize-winning The Commercial Society, Wilhelm Röpke’s Political Economy, and, most recently, Becoming Europe: Economic Decline, Culture, and America’s Future.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (172) | Leave a comment
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Ted R.| 1.20.12 @ 7:08AM
The solution is straightforward, if difficult for Europeans to swallow: immigration. North Africa and the Middle East ARE overpopulated; Europe has the demand, they have the supply. European culture will be transformed by the large-scale immigration that will be called for, but it will happen - it is simply a fact of demographics.
Jack in Wi.| 1.20.12 @ 7:46AM
This is a good straght forward article. The only thing that can save Europe demographically is a return to it's Christian roots.Like the author above I am not holding my breath. The future of Europe would seem to lie with the Muslim and 3rd world Christians, who are rapidly replacing the natives.
cvrgrl| 1.20.12 @ 11:20AM
ted and jack, you are wrong and simplistic
the way to deal with the demographic problem is to "co-opt" the muslim infusion, mostly because it cannot now be stopped; the muslim culture, religion, polical system (such that it exists) is inevitably going to permanently change the region (already has)
yeah, you all are well read, know more on the subject than me, etc., but you are not appreciating the fact that the demographic change is not reversible
the demographic battle for europe (especially france) is lost-- the demographic change WILL occur, it is now inevitable; the muslim/fundamentalist islamic culture of winning the land by patient attrition (and at times a bloody terrorist reminder) is a successful strategy (playing out for 14 centuries now)
while bliblical war violent events may loom, the politicians and tacticians we seek -- let's be honest -- a different (chicken hawk) solution
the brain thrust should be to give them one, i.e. contaminate sharia law, unearth a new interpretation of the koran, plant a "poison pill" or virus that somehow acts as a distemper shot to rabid dogs...
hey tim, i'm just saying...
Pete| 1.20.12 @ 2:45PM
A simple solution is jut to become Muslim.
Skippy| 1.20.12 @ 4:24PM
Why does the name Mark Steyn keep jumping into my head?
Oh yeah, now I remember.
Antonio| 1.21.12 @ 10:27AM
You're speaking nonsense. You mention France, but contrary to what you're saying, the relatively high fertility rate is driven mostly by traditional French populations. In European countries with access to birth control, poverty does not mean necessarily higher fertility rates. On the other hand, fertility rates in North Africa are falling rapidly and approaching European levels. So, once you go to Europe, changes are that you have fewer children no matter what your ethnic background is.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:33AM
Bullshit, Antonio---the French don't separate Islamic from Non-Islamic births.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 11:25AM
I can't speak to what other countries in Europe are doing but Germany is taking very proactive steps to increase the birth rate. Don't quote me on the exact figures but, a few years ago, Germany began subsidizing woment to have more children. This was done using both tax breaks and workplace protection rules. My youngest son's employer transferred him to Germany ten years ago (for two years!). He is married to a wonderful German girl, owns a home and has recently become a father for the first time. Both he and his wife are professional people. When she gave birth to my granddaughter (and here is where my numbers may not be completely accurate) she continued to receive approximately 80% of her salary for one year (her employer was subsidized by the government) and her job was guaranteed for one year. Now, I'm not a fan of direct government subsudies for anything I can think of off-hand, but in this instance, even I think it's justified. The dilemman the European find themselves in is precisely what you alluded to in your comment. They, the Germans at least, seem to grasp that if they rely soley on immigration to achieve sustainability, they will eventually be forced to sacrifice their culture too. They have apparently awakened to that fact and are doing something to insure against it. God, Jack, it feels really strange agreeing with you on something.
dusk| 1.20.12 @ 1:06PM
Kennesaw Jack, yes, you are right. Germany has been paying out baby money and "Kinder Geld" for years already. This is not new.
Several problems. The illegals and the immigrants from Morocco, Syria, Tunesia, Turkey, and Iran also get this money for their children from taxpayers/Berlin via the German states. And they maximize payments by doing more procreating.
Not so the "traditional German."
However, paying money for a child? That is as looney as it gets. That is big government run amok. And only increasing the debt of the state.
Further, it changes nothing. The money is good, and the time off from work for the woman/mother is OVER-generous.
Almost guaranteed: This grandchild of yours will be the first and last your son and German daughter-in-law produce.
Your daughter in law has most of her peers unmarried (sure, a number have shacked up, but they are not committed in marriage) and most of her peers will, at most, have that one child --- at the age of 32 or 34, i.e. at the end of their birthing life cycles when it is too late to even consider a second child.
If your son and daughter-in-law were to have just three children, they would be an incredible anomaly.
Keep in mind: Her co-workers would hold her in mighty contempt -- even when it is a PC no-no to even hint at the venom. Just one child means long, long, long periods of work absences while still getting paid and no chance for the employer to replace.
Other than Japan, I have never been in a more one-child place than Germany.
The bigger problem is that the "Kinder Geld" does not really alter the thinking and behaviors of those who hold no genuine hopes for their world.
Patrick hits on the root of the problem below: For what exactly does the modern German/European live?
Europeans, having long since jettisoned faith, they have no moorings in life. They are wandering, empty, lonely, visionless souls. Thus their massive resistance to bringing new life into a world, as they see it, of great confusion, a world of no purpose and no guidance.
No amount of "Kinder Geld" alters this thinking. Except for some of their welfare queens. And the eager immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, and some parts of Asia who crave this money.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 2:09PM
Just a few things. My son and daughter-in-law are planning on three children and I'm certain, absent complications, they will do just that. Given their stature in the community and in the corporations for which they work, their fellow employees will be contemptuous at their peril. That being said, each of your points is well taken except the part concerning the jettison of faith. I am a devout Lutheran (what else for someone of German descent!) as is my son. I find, on my trips over there, that there is a stirring among Germans to revisit their faith. Our church sponsors a German congregation here in our community. A pastor is brought from Germany on a five year rotation and the congregation is growing. Likewise, in Germany, we are finally seeing an increase in Church attendance. Not much, to be sure, but an increase nonetheless. I'm one of the, apparently, remaining few who still believe the birthplace of Western Civilization will right its course. I simply refuse to believe that a people who produced most of the truly great minds in history will just wither away in the face of an onslaught from the east. Yes, you can read that to mean Islamic world.
W| 1.20.12 @ 4:17PM
KJack,
Europe has been fighting Islam since Islam began and it has always beaten Islam when it was necessary, such as at Lepanto and Tours. For some reason, Europe always thinks it can get along with Islam, until it is faced with no choice. I agree with you that it will win again given its history.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 4:19PM
I think it will be a very, very ugly affair this time but it will happen.
W| 1.20.12 @ 4:45PM
We have no choice but to win, and the USA is part of Europe.
Quartermaster| 1.20.12 @ 6:00PM
Kennesaw, I'm of German descent, and I ain't Lutheran. :-)
Nothing against it (unless you're with one of those libtard branches), however.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:21PM
KJ, from your mouth to G-d's ears (as usual); but Germany is already very far down the road; 16 percent of German women believe the right number of children is none.
Living in NZ, which is a European offshoot, I was amazed at the anti-child hostility.
Quartermaster| 1.20.12 @ 6:02PM
Anti-child hostility is part of the postmodern package. They have a "gospel" of sterility as the core of their ideology and it is worked out in in that fashion.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 7:25PM
So is that why the late liberal journalist, Tom Braden, had eight children with his wife? Their home life, by the way, was the source material for the TV hit series of the early 80s, "Eight Is Enough?" Truth is, most liberals I know have kids.
By the way, how come prominent conservatives like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh don't have any kids, despite being in their 50s? As they say on SNL, what's up with that?
jmulcahy| 1.20.12 @ 9:19PM
Maureen Dowd, "what's up with that?"
Stupid comment, Seek. Liberals abort their babies. All the Republican candidates have more children than the Obamas. What's up with that?
Seek| 1.23.12 @ 3:28PM
Plenty of conservatives abort as well -- they're just not as public about it. Abortion, at any rate, isn't a political act, regardless of those seeking it.
As for the Obamas having "only" two kids, presumably less than the remaining GOP candidates for president, who cares? Since when is child creation a prerequisite for holding the office? Jimmy Carter, if I recall, had quite a few kids of his own. How did that work out?
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:34AM
Seek: using individual example is not useful. Clue: what state has the more robust birth rate---Alabama or New York?
Seek| 1.23.12 @ 3:29PM
You tell me. Nothing is what it seems.
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 6:10PM
Would you F**K either ofthem without a Condom and a can of Lysol? Not even for a Bailout and a subsidy! Me neither!
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 6:12PM
Refering to why Ann Coldhard and Rush Limberger don't have sex products they can leave their fortunes to.
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 6:09PM
Not really, it's just that responsible caring human's DO NOT want to sacrifice their offspring to the TWIN RED party Reaganomic Gods of terminal debt and corporate/person warfare.
Until sanity and balance as the net product of REd party attrition (all the McConnell, McCain, Bonehead dinosaurs are extinct) , no child is safe from the grist mill of corporate labor camps and unfunded educational mandates.
PJ| 1.20.12 @ 10:30PM
I'm sorry to say this but it has been proven time & time again that economic incentives do not increase the birth rate to above the replacement rate.
Germany is still below replacement rate even with all its incentives. Russia who has also had in place huge economic incentives for women to have more than 1 child for at least 10 yrs & is still losing the population battle. And look at Japan. Even China is a little worried too (although it still has its 1 child policy). Iran is another country that has given incentives to women to have more children & they are still way below the replacement rate.
Giving away taxpayers' money is not the answer.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:18PM
The Muslims, Jack, you fool. They are the immigration problem for Europe, committing crimes, especially rape, all out of proportion to their numbers in the population.
But this, of course, you support.
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 6:13PM
You have data for your claim's of criminal excesses?
Ted| 1.20.12 @ 9:53AM
Immigration is not the only thing that can save Europe. They can renounce their self-imposed "The Children of Men" mentality and begin having children.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 10:13AM
We on this side of the pond also have to remember that our birth rate would be below replacement levels if not for immigration. The biggest reason people dont have kids? Its expensive. Kids are a luxury for for middle class people. When you look at what a child will cost from birth through college Im amazed that anyone has kids anymore. The lack of child rearing is simply the rational response to economic reality. Our birth rate has dropped quite a bit since 2007 in response to the economy. I read this somewhere but I dont remember where. Young people that have a hard time finding stable well paying employment are not going to have children. Even teenaged births are down if I remember correctly.
Petronius| 1.23.12 @ 1:41AM
Finally some substance. H.L. Mencken said over a century ago that getting a living in this country was too easy and gave rise to inferior men. This is as much true as not when weighing who reproduces and who does not. But as this administration has now made economic and social advancement impossible for the average American we will soon follow Europe into the abyss of despair. The only way it can be reversed is for the powerful statist plutocrats to quit grinding their heels into the aspirations of others and allow those who are not powerful to Make Money for themselves and Keep it! No way! They won't be distributing ice skates in Hell either. And the price of Powerball doubled too.
JP| 1.20.12 @ 12:57PM
Ted,
You need to see the birthrates of North Africa. For the last decade Algeria, Tunesia, Egypt, and Morroco have mainained TFR (Total Fertility Rates) below replacement levels. Egypt's and Algeria currently mainain birthrates around 1.6-1.8. Turkey has also been its birhrate decline from around 5 in 1970 to 2.3 today. Iran is also aging with birthrates around 1.7 . The "surplus" populations of North African young people declines with each passing year.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 2:03PM
You've just brightened my day with these numbers.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:21PM
Israel is still at 2.78.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 3:25PM
Occam you do realize you just ruined Jack and Clint's day, don't you?
Quartermaster| 1.20.12 @ 6:05PM
Somehow, Kennesaw, I doubt that. You people blow everything they say out of proportion and make bigger fools of yourselves than they do. You're just too stupid to look at yourself in the mirror and see it.
KennesawJack| 1.21.12 @ 10:09AM
Lighten up, QM. Apparently you read their posts through a different set of lenses from some of the rest of us. Knock off the personal BS. My post above is what's known as a tweak. Get over it.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:37AM
QM: did the humor removal operation come with the rectal implant?
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:35AM
Hope so, sir! :-)
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:38AM
The Hope So was addressed to KJ, the humor removal was addressed to KM, who loves Dr Paul too well. (4th in SC, 3rd or 4th predicted in FLA)
KennesawJack| 1.22.12 @ 3:01PM
Hah!
PJ| 1.20.12 @ 10:33PM
Israel & another country in Africa (I forgot which 1) are the only 2 countries that have their replacement rate way above 2.1.
Would you like to know why?
KennesawJack| 1.21.12 @ 10:10AM
OK, I'll bite. Why?
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:38PM
Demographics is about a lot more than simply population size. More importantly, it's about population composition. If Europe one day becomes majority Afro and Muslim, it will be all over for that continent. "Demographic winter" alarmism should take a back seat to reality: When it comes to nonwhites, the more is NOT the merrier.
M Pearlstein| 1.27.12 @ 3:00AM
@ Seek,
Indeed. The human capital of populations is key. Your point is well made looking at the demise of Detroit. You can see the role of demographics in that change.
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 5:54PM
(Gulping lukewarm RED Koolaid & watching vintage "Let's Make A Deal" VHS tapes) I got a win-win-win-win solution that solves everybody's problems in ONE YEAR.
1) To make the Vatican happy by promoting Catholicism, The Mandatory Pregnancy and Forced Childbirthers in America happy, provide the needed boost in births to replace the European Escapees and cut ICE and Border Security issues in the United States and Mexico... Offer SUV's (Supplimentary Urowork Visas) to the Trespassers, Freeloaders and other Illegals in America and PAY for their 7 day deluxe Cruise to The European destination behind Door #1, door #2, or door #3. ~smirks~ GAY married couples get the 241 special, 2 Visas, one bed.
Within a year, there will be no one left for the RED vilify, blame, defame and abuse so they will HAVE no other issues to deal with EXCEPT the Economy. Financial Regulation Reform and the correction of SCOTUS's corporate personhood folly. The AMerican economy will go into overdrive and pull the rest of the world's failing governments along with it. (Sips the last RED Koolaid)
I mean, wouldn't YOU as a NeoCon be happy with:
1) no Gay marriage applications
2) only enough illegals to pick crops, detail Caddy's and Lincolns, clean houses and wash dishes
3) a slump in the abortion industry
4) only the Economy left to obsfuscate, obstruct, obliterate and omnibus?
The BLUE party would be lulled back into anesthesia and since I have become the world's shepherd and savior, wouldn't you be overwhelmingly satisfied to experience worshipping your Lord in the flesh?
If you could just learn to STOP LOVING THE RHETORIC so much, you might just see the wisdom of the PLAN!
fckewe| 1.22.12 @ 5:55PM
I DIDN'T say I swallowed the RED Koolaid... I just felt like slumming for an afternoon.
c.j. acworth| 1.20.12 @ 7:19AM
Is it possible that nations could get away with declining birthrates if the tax and regulatory schemes were set up to maximise economic growth and productivity? In other words, if people knew from the outset that their "golden years" would be their own responsibility, and the fruits of their labor would not be taxed away, would they then be encouaged to save and invest which would presumably lead to increased productivity and wealth rather than stagnation ending in a downward spiral?
Patrick| 1.20.12 @ 8:05AM
That *could* help, somewhat. The problem is that much of their greater productivity and purchasing power would simply be used upon more lavish living, and not procreating.
This is far deeper than mere economics. Europe has thrown away her purpose for living. The only good is pleasure, the only evil is pain. This implosion is the result of throwing God away.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 10:23AM
Patrick Im sorry but I have to disagree with you. I know many Christians that are not having children. It doesnt have anything to do with God its all about economics. This same thing is happening in America as well. If you have to choose between saving for your retirement or having children the rational choice is to save for retirement. You are correct in that there is a lot less pressure from society to have children. To be honest Im 40 with no children no wife and I never will. This is an economic choice. If I want to save any money at all for retirement I cannot get married. If I get married and had children tomorrow I would be forced to be working until well after 70 which may or may not be possible. I didnt get married previously because I was a farmer and ran into financial difficulties in 98 when the hog market fell out of bed and spent the next 10 years working myself out of debt. I could not have gotten married then because I was in a tight financial position. Now that I have plenty of money I cannot get married because I am too old and have to save for retirement. This is an example of why people arent having children.
ella8| 1.20.12 @ 2:42PM
That is sad that you think you are too old to get married. If you don't want marriage or children that is one thing, but your reasoning is sad. Nobody ever would have children if they had to do so under the perfect circumstances. There is never a perfect time to have children. The planned parenthood zeitgeist has distorted the perception of child bearing. In the past people just had children, it was not planned or unplanned, they just had them and they had faith and figured out how to get by. It was accepted that parenthood was hard. Now because it is a "choice" everything is expected to be perfect. Life is never perfect and the best laid plans can fail. Just live.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 4:22PM
Ella8,
Its an economic decision. The type of decision making process you describe is exactly why this country is in the state that it is in today. Im not saying it has to be perfect but it has to work out economically. There will not be any social security for my generation. 401k returns have been terrible for quite some time, savings accounts do not pay anything. I have to assume that every dollar that I will need will have to come from savings and not from any sort of interest or appreciation. In order that I am able to take care of myself well into my 80s I need to have a certain amount of money saved. Hoping that things will just work out is why this country is broke. This is what caused the housing crisis. This is what has caused most of the problems that we have... Oh its ok, spend the money and then we will figure out a way later to pay for it. Im sorry but I have run the numbers using conservative figures and while I make more money than most people I cannot afford to have a wife and children at the same time that I save for retirement. It is one or the other. The rational choice is to save for retirement. More people need to make rational decisions. Yes it would be nice to have kids but if you cant afford it are you just going to let the rest of the country pay for it? Just for your own selfish happiness? I dont understand that, Im sorry.
Jeamar| 1.20.12 @ 5:00PM
THKrupp: Listen to Ella & Ocam. My grandparents never had Social Security or 401Ks either. During the Great Depression grandpa was the only one working steadily and supporting 13 people including two married sons and three grandchildren. Glad he and Gran never decided they could not afford children. Almost every life has hardship of some kind, sorrow aplenty but many blessings for those who edur.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:24PM
Mr. Krupp: find yourself a good wife and have some kids. Maybe you will live long enough for retirement; maybe not. But my father in law raises cattle and he's still working (with one good eye) at 87.
My first child was adopted by me at 41.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 3:27PM
God bless you for that, Occam. (And He will!)
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 4:11PM
Mr Occam,
That is precisely what I want to do. I want to retire and go back to the farm and raise cattle. Of course as Im sure you know that in order to make a living raising cattle one should have a second job lol.
Quartermaster| 1.20.12 @ 6:08PM
You can make a small fortune raising cattle. It's easy. First, you start with a large fortune....
I know that works.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:36AM
I hope so---and may you have manhy kids, and may they be happy and healthy...
Antonio| 1.21.12 @ 10:40AM
Still, even if the Christians you mention don't have children, in most cases it's just that they don't want to sacrifice their way of living. I have four children (I live in Portugal) and of course I had to take a couple of them out of the private Catholic school they were in because it was too expensive for us. I quit travelling around Europe during the summer, etc. But I would still have them if I could go back!
VonMisesJr| 1.20.12 @ 11:08AM
My friend c.j.;
Pat Buchanan's "Death of the West" goes into great detail on the dilemma. Patrick (below) is correct that in the short run, fiscal responsibility will help the current generation. But the reason for 2.1 being the replacement rate is to replace both parents and allow for child mortality.
Then you have the issue of exponential mathematics. If a couple has four kids and they have four kids each; you get sixteen grandkids, not eight.
The same happens in reverse when a couple has one child, who has one child. You get a geometric collapse of the population. The one grandchild may need to provide for his family, plus his both parents, plus possibly two sets of grandparents; or nine people (if he has one child and the age expectancy is rising.)
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:39PM
Don't assume kids will do as their parents do.
Pat| 1.20.12 @ 3:32PM
VonMises Jr.
Yeah, but the same problem in Japan as well, it’s not a “white person” related issue at all. But you’re correct in pointing out that anyone imagining some form of government policy will effectively deal with the mathematics of dwindling birth rates should be regarded as hopelessly naive. Europeans weren’t concerned with any mythical “Population Bomb” when making their decisions to avoid or defer children – they may rationalize it that way but it comes down to basic individual selfishness – just as it does in this country.
“Do I buy that new Mustang convertible or have this baby I didn’t plan for?”. May be a cynical outlook regarding individual behavior but people don’t give a hoot what will happen to their society after they’re long dead. And the problem is much more immediate than what will happen 50 years from now, as many commentators have pointed out.
Our American society will change at a fundamental demographic level, nothing our government can do will stop that. The vacuum left by couples having their one and only child in their forties will be filled by those eager to come here from foreign shores. The old or about to be old will grow less wealthy than their parents were in their old age. Our young workers will resent subsidizing those graybeards living on that public dole we call Social Security.
Our elected employees in Washington will make noises about how they are dealing with the “problem” but it will amount to nothing more than patting voters on the head in their normal paternalistic fashion. How do you go about replacing 50 million American babies who were never born? Maybe Congress can pass a law.
VonMisesJr| 1.21.12 @ 9:52AM
Pat,
You are absolutely correct. And it is much worse due to our fiscal profligacy.
In my state, you can work for the state government for 30 years earning $100K near the end, and retire with $50K plus pension and over $20K health plan. If a teacher and a cop retire at 55 and live to 80; they will collect $2.5M in cash disbursements and another minimum $150K in benefits until they qualify for Medicare. On top of that, they are entitled to Social Security payments. So at 65, they probably collect $30K a year for 15 years, or another half-million or so.
Wait until the OWS jackholes figure this one out?
VMJr.
fckewe| 1.23.12 @ 3:01AM
LMAO As IF there wouldn't be a once a decade 'sweep' of savings, a transfer of wealth from the hopeful majority to the scheming minority. S&L, before that Robo selloffs in '87 and '84, since then, Tech bubble... Katrina, Paulsenomics... now an obstructionist Senate and a stagnant House.
you think that ANY of the cash saved by this and then next 2 generations will be available to them when they retire? Wasn't it Newt the skin flute who STARTED raiding the SS trustfund in '94 to PAY for his 'great ideas that didn't work?
I mean he did make good on those 20 bounced checks eventually and he did manage to cough up $300K for his fines but... Where is the collateral for the IOU's in the SS trust fund?
Indy| 1.20.12 @ 8:03AM
This video illustrates what is happening in EU with the changing demographics, it's an old video, perhaps you have seen it but it is a good reminder of how demographics are changing and the tipping point of when trends cannot be reversed as is the case with Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Rev Edward Moran| 1.20.12 @ 9:10AM
While Sam Gregg does an admirable job of detailing the rates of population decline and the effects of youthful exodus on the twilight EuroZone, he fails to consider the prevailing trends of burgeoning Islamic birth rate and its cultural implications. The 'clash of civilizations' can be already felt in many of the major European cities by way of the carving out of Shiria districts that many Christian and secular Europeans are cautioned to avoid. Mosques now outnumber churches in many European cities both major and minor. The growing sign of the demographic explosion due to elevated Islamic birth rates (8.1 on average across Europe) will fundamentally change Europe in the next 25 years. The politicized attitudes that have myoptically focused on the debt issues have also been in denial from living decades of welfare and pension budgets. Add to this how Europeans as a whole are failing to notice the religious encroachment of Islam hidden by the 'mask' of cultural diversity. What we are witnessing is the end of European culture by the way their respective countries are becoming fundamentally religiously different in the timeframe of one generation. As Hispanic birthrates in the United States are changing the character of our country, the Europeans are waking up to being broke, older and increasingly Islamic.
Audace| 1.20.12 @ 9:25AM
Rev. Moran, quite correct.
I recommend to anyone who might have doubts about what you write to spend several days in and around cities like Rotterdam, Antwerp, and Brussels. Just watch your step (and your back!) There are numerous police no-go zones now in and around the Euro and Belgian capital city.
If you are a caucasian male, be careful. Stick to daylight only. If a woman and good looking, don't go.
This is not exaggeration.
The clash will be directly with the islamists. They offer this clash in a host of ways every week now, month in, month out. They are "in your face" antagonistic, pushy, and there is nothing you can do about it.
They know how to intimidate and how to cow. The police are cowed. They are the first ones (the good police) to warn visitors, tourists away.
But is it really any different in Minneapolis-St. Paul? Detroit? Toronto? NYC?
No.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 9:29AM
Its criminals nothing to do with faith.
Audace| 1.20.12 @ 10:05AM
Indy, thank you for the video clip above. I recommend it to anyone, to everyone to see. It is 6 minutes well spent. And it is all true.
Now, John, if you are saying that the root of most of these ills in Europe and now on North American shores is not islam, you are a blind man. You are deaf. You do not read. You've placed your brain somewhere not attached to the rest of you. And you haven't travelled and tasted, and smelled. You haven't felt the fear, the very real sense of your own danger for just being in a place.
This fear is real in so many places now in Europe. Places that were idyllic, harmless just 15 - 20 years ago.
Get your head right.
islam is not your friend. Those who have islam as their core thinking are your avowed enemy. And right now, judging from your ignorance or apathy, they are winning.
Take me up on this offer: Take off for just two weeks. Fly to Paris, London, Amsterdam, or Brussels. Right now. This is the cheapest time for air tickets. Rent a car. Travel to 6 cities in the Benelux with a urban popoluation of over 300,000. Park that rental. And go walkabout in that urban city. Go just 4 - 6 blocks beyond -- yes, go beyond -- the heavily touristed, better looking city centres. Do this every day for your two weeks.
I lived next to them. I was their neighbor. I worked with scores of them over several decades. In my hobbies and free time was part of athletic organizations with them, and I coached their kids and dealt with them as parents, uncles and grandparents. I was shoulder t0 shoulder with them for the last two decades. Understand?
Take this 14-day excursion as I have described it to you. Winters are mild there. You just need a sturdy jacket, good hat, durable umbrella. Go, see for yourself. Listen. Observe. Smell. Scan the newspapers. Watch clips of the nightly news. Watch how the police behave in the urban centres.
Once every three days, take that rental into a housing area. A lower income housing area. Don't leave your vehicle and only do this in daylight. Just observe.
And then tell me what you think.
And while you are at it: Contemplate why they are adamant about placing grand mosques at every locale that there is an iconic, historic, culturally significant church/cathedral. At every location of a landmark Christian church -- across Europe -- there are either already plans for a grand mosque to be raised, it is being built now, or extreme militant, weekly agitation on the part of muslims for these mosque projects to proceed is operating on overdrive.
Never mind that there are already mosques and storefront mosques aplenty. They are erecting grand mosques just as fast as they can and physically placing them to 'challenge' the existing Christian edifices.
After your flight over and 14-day discovery tour of the Low Countries/Benelux urban centres, please return here and let us know your findings. Okay?
You will be a different thinking man after this short two weeks. If you go with your eyes and ears open.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 11:34AM
No. Islam is not the root of the worlds problems. I should know I'm a Muslim. And very happy. Always happy. I'm even happy when I'm not happy.
Skippy| 1.20.12 @ 4:48PM
Sure you're not a woman?
All Muslim women are happy.
Even when their fathers kill them for dishonoring the family.
Blissfull even.
And at peace.
cvrgrl| 1.21.12 @ 12:46AM
john786
you are delusional
and it makes me happy
to say so
happy happy happy
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:40AM
And you, John786, are an evil scumbag who will not be allowed within miles of my kids, if I know of it. You are a child rape supporting scumbag, and a verminous dog.
fckewe| 1.23.12 @ 3:04AM
WOuld you even RECOGNIZE Jesus if he let you cut in front of Him @ McDonald's tomorrow morning?
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:51AM
Audace: the destruction of Western Europe by Islam makes John786 happy. He is a fundamentalist Muslim. Lying to Kaffirs is part of his evil, twisted, murderous faith.
One day, the name Muhammed will only be spoken of in a curse in the Middle east. i hope to live to see that day.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:41PM
The criminality is a direct expression of faith. And no faith is more despotic in its treatment of the nonbelievers than Islam.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:25PM
The Twin Cities are getting increasingly scary, filled with John 786 types. Vermin you want to have stay away from your kids.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 3:59PM
There's not much logic to you mr occam. Bitter to the end.
Quartermaster| 1.20.12 @ 6:11PM
Oh, I wouldn't say that. He makes a great deal of sense when he isn't making a fool of himself over Clint or Jack. And he's quite right in this case.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:44AM
Why thank you, QM. Jack and Clint are fun to punch. I gives me catharsis to punch them. So is John 786, and for much the same reasons. Islam is a horrid faith, designed by a mass murdering child rapist.
The problem with Pat Buchanan, for exapmle, is that he recognizes the evil of Islam, and yet is unwilling to do anything to it that might help Israel. That's a problem Ron Paul shares, and it leads to logical contortions among his followers. Although I don't think Paul recognizes that Islam is evil. Certainly Jack and Clint have no problem with sharia.
That is very problematic to me. The rest is just that I hate them personally.
Audace | 1.20.12 @ 9:11AM
They way to see the demographic shifts in Europe (and elsewhere) is to pay attention to names.
Yes, just names. As in first and last names.
There are two big events this coming summer that offer ample opportunity for the armchair socio-political thinker to reflect on how the world and individual countries are changing -- changing with break-neck speed.
For those who liking footballing (the version with the round ball) look to the kickoff in Poland and the Ukraine as co-hosts of the Euro 16 nations footballing contest the first week of June.
Just a month after that concludes in July we'll have the summer Olympics in London and other parts of England. This smorgasbord of sporting contests offers up even more "names." Frankly, thousands of names.
What last names come to mind when you think of a young man hailing from Sweden, France, Austria, Denmark, Germany or Switzerland?
While viewing these contests on the tube or following them in the sports pages, you'll have all your preconceived notions of what these names are altered, i.e. cultural norms.
For starters, look up the marquee name for Sweden's fooballing starting eleven side. The marquee name is a striker plying his trade now in Milan, Italy. Examine his last name and family history during his short lifetime.
His life story and the story behind it tell one all one needs to know about what will be a radically different Skandinavia and Europe within just one more generation.
Different does not necessarily spell worse or bad. However, in this case, well, it is not a case of preferences or proclivities. The Europe that is arriving now will be colder, darker, less friendly, more demanding, less productive, less bedrock decent civilization.
Please don't fool yourself. The "elements" that have encroached upon all corners of Europe are here, too. The "movement" in North America is only 12 - 15 years behind that of their "brethren" in Europe.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 9:27AM
Mr Indy,
Congratulations for being first with the islamophobia. They may be Muslims but they're 100% Europeans.
This article neglects the power of Technology . And benefit of a reduced population is lower unemployment etc..
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:42PM
Opposition to Islam is not a "phobia." It's evidence of a healthy human survival mechanism.
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:27PM
John786:
Yup. It's real safe being a Jew in Malmo, Sweden, asshole, thanks to people like you. Seek, below at 1:42 PM, is perfectly correct on this.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 4:04PM
Christains being a friend of the Jews. The pograms, holocaust must just have been a big misunderstanding. Sorry guys it wont happen again. Happy clappy one moment and then........nasty business.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 4:24PM
And therein lies the basic problem with Islam. Christianity and Judaism have evolved past the point of enmity and have learned to embrace the common parts of their faith heritage. Islam is now, and will forever be, mired in the Dark Ages.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:47AM
Well, John786, I've been in certain areas of Minneapolis and I've practiced in rural Alabama where the Baptists go to church twice weekly. Alabama is quite Jew friendly. Not so Minneapolis.
The Muslims are the reason the remaining Jews in Europe are being beaten and made to live in fear, asshole.
Indy| 1.20.12 @ 8:39PM
John786,
Aren't you quick to judge, you could not be more wrong. In the case of Europe, I have not been there in many years but in talking to my family who do travel there and listening to my co-workers, Europe has changed, as the video explains the population has been sustained not through birthrates but by immigration. Assimilation is slow if at all, in parts of Europe you see the influence of Sharia Law, you can easily verify for yourself with a quick search on the internet. I have not researched every country but definitely the UK is easy to verify.
Is the population European? Yes
Have the demographics in Europe changed? Yes
Does that mean I have the "phobia" you accuse me of just for pointing that out with facts? No.
America is a nation of immigrants, the difference I see now compared to those who first arrived at Ellis Island is that immigrants came to seek opportunity in the US and assimilated, they never forgot their roots / culture but they became Americans. Now, we see many who come here who are slow to assimilate or some refuse to learn our language which makes it difficult to embrace the American Dream. The US birthrate has declined, there were many families of 4 + children when I grew up, based on today's economics, it is very difficult to afford a big family. The US population is being sustained by immigrant, both legal and illegal immigrants.
You mention the benefits of a low population is low unemployment, but that's not the case is it? What you have is an aging population in Europe and the US with retirement promises made that cannot be paid with the current workforce, a lower birthrate cannot sustain aging retirees, it is simple math.
John786| 1.21.12 @ 10:24AM
I'm not sure what you mean by assimilation. If it means speaking the local language and feeling part of the society them most Muslims are assimilated. There are no parts of Europe under sharia thats a fact. have there been demographic changes: yes. When Europeans conquered the known world they gave their languages and in some cases religion and culture to the colonised. The vast majority of the immigrants in europe are descendents of empire. Theve been European historically for very long time.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:47AM
Britain and France3 have plent of areas under sharia de facto, if not de jure. Keep lying, scumbag.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:48AM
France---no 3.
Indy| 1.22.12 @ 1:03PM
What I mean by assimilate is to learn the language, history, civics, rule of law and culture. If you become a citizen, participate in elections.
I did not say parts of Europe are under sharia, I said "in parts of Europe you see the influence of Sharia Law" I also said a quick search and you can verify, try it for yourself
"Sharia has been operating in the UK, managed by locally-appointed councils, in parallel to the British legal system since 1982.
But the informal councils have no legal powers and they cannot impose any penalties.
They deal with civil cases alone, but many Muslims are choosing to voluntarily accept rulings made by the scholars."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16522447
"Although the courts currently have no jurisdiction in Britain, the Islamic Sharia Council makes clear that its ultimate goal is to have their laws recognised.
It says on its website: “Though the Council is not yet legally recognised by the authorities in the UK, the fact that it is already established, and is gradually gaining ground among the Muslim community… are all preparatory steps towards the final goal of gaining the confidence of the host community in the soundness of the Islamic legal system.”
Certain decisions made under Sharia are already enforceable in British courts through the 1996 Arbitration Act, which allows any form of agreement as long as both parties concur on the terms at the outset. This legal standing does not apply to the informal Sharia councils – but does apply to the Muslim arbitration tribunals that rule on commercial and civil disputes, a fact that is raising fears that they could begin to supplant the British court system."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....tself.html
Indy| 1.22.12 @ 1:08PM
“Muslims Against Crusades” (MAC), an Islamic group based in the United Kingdom, plans to wage a propaganda campaign to make a portion of London accept Sharia law. They are calling it the “Islamic Emirates Project,” and it is designed to create beachheads for sharia across the UK. ...MAC released a statement this week that said:
“As part of our Islamic Emirate Project, Waltham Forest is to be the first borough to be targeted for an intense shari’a led campaign, introducing the prospect of Islamic law for the Muslim community to abide by.”
http://www.theblaze.com/storie.....-campaign/
"The MAC appears to be affiliated with professional Islamist provocateur Anjem Choudary- formerly of al-Mujaharoun and various other radical Muslim groups. Choudary is a known associate of Omar Bakri Mohammed, who was leader of al-Mujaharoun until he was kicked out of the UK permanently for his proclamations supporting Jihad.
There's more at the link including video of Choudary, discussing the death of Osama Bin Laden, and the coming Jihad.
Bob K.| 1.20.12 @ 9:47AM
This phenomenon of genetic and cultural suicide is not just limited to Europe. It also involves the United States, the English speaking world, and the South American part of the America's inhabited by members of the white race in general where it's populations are declining.
There are changes there within the descendents of European cultures which contribute to this genetic and cultural suicide. There are low marriage rates and low birthrates among the females. And this trend is helped by the the political approval of abortion by their elected leaders.
It is not just the weather that has moved the population of North America to the south and southwest along with the political power. It is also the northward movement of the nonwhite peoples from Central and South America who continue to have many children, unlike the children of the Europeans who settled North America, and this too is changing our demographics and our politics.
Ted| 1.20.12 @ 9:56AM
Ah, yes. Our old friend Malthus. The creator of an interesting "barrier to entry," so to speak. And no matter how often disproven, his theories on overpopulation rear their little heads again and again.
Malthus's major error in his overpopulation / decreasing resources analysis is that he never accounted for technological change. The technological change that allowed farmers to grow higher yielding crops on less land or to irrigate formerly non-productive land and then farm it.
Timothy L. Pennell| 1.20.12 @ 9:58AM
Mr. John786? Your comment neglects REALITY. These ANIMALS live in Sections that have become "No Go" Zones. Even the Police, don't go there. They live by THEIR LAWS, not the Laws of their host Country. And they NEVER Assimilate. Every now and then, one of their Kids will try. And, they always end up DEAD. Killed by their own Parents.
It's not Islamophobia. We HATE them. There's a difference.
As far as Europe goes? They're finished. They will end up like Rome. In the end times, even the Emperor, was from outside of Italy. And, then they were gone.
Only White Countries have this Problem. Ya ever notice? Only White Countries have such Porous Borders. Such Weak Immigration Laws.
You don't see that in the Arab World. You don't see that in ASIA. You don't see it in Central or South America.
You only see it in the WHITE Countries.
You don't have to look at Europe, to see the end result of all of this. You don't even have to look at ancient ROME. Pick any American City, and you will see for your self, how EMPIRES FALL.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 10:23AM
There are dangerous areas in every city on the earth; nothing to do with faith. There are absolutely no 'no go' areas in Europe based on faith. As a follower of the last monotheistic faith on the earth I don't have an issue with anybody.
Also don't forget in the final analysis 'race' is a social construct with no scientific basis. We are all one race. The children of Adam & Eve. The problems in the world are one of politics not faith.
John| 1.20.12 @ 11:19AM
John, people who disagree with you are "islamophobes" and racists. You are such an understanding and wonderful person. Do you believe in unicorns? I would let my daughter walk about Singapore or any Japanese city at 3 in the morning. I would not walk alone during daylight in some parts of most U.S. cities even if armed. The difference is civilization. Civilization for some reason is tied to race and religion. "'Race' is a social construct?" It may be a social construct but it is real. Remember Jesse Jackson's comment, "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery - then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."
Timothy L. Pennell| 1.20.12 @ 12:00PM
Idiot.
They Strap Explosives to their Kids. They MURDER their 14 Year Old Daughters, for not Marrying the 75 Year old guy, with the 3 Goats to trade. And they do it, for Honour.
EVERY De-Stabilized Country, in the world, is De-Stabilized by MULIMS. ALL of the Terrorism, being done in the World, is being done by MUSLIMS. All of the Car Bombs, Roadside Bombs, and Suicide Bombs, belong to MUSLIMS.
Are you that Blind? or, do you just CHOOSE not to see.
We may be "All one Race" but we are NOT the same.
And, you are Fool.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 12:52PM
Let it all out Timothy. I know its cathartic. Better know. I will not try to reason with you.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:48AM
John786:
Stay away from my kids, scumbag.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 2:20PM
Timothy,
Actually our greatest weapon against this happening is our own popular culture. There is no culture on earth that can stand against Lady GaGa, Paris Hilton and Micheal Jackson. Every kid in the world with access to a computer or TV wants to be cool. We have the coolest pop culture on earth. I remember when I was a student ambassador to the Soviet Union. Talking with kids my own age there (I was 17) and all they were intersted in was Micheal Jackson, Madonna and whatever else was popular then. The could have cared less about communism because it didnt provide them with a cool pop culture. The same thing is happening with immigrant culture to Europe. While they do have some effect on the culture of the country they move to. The culture of the existing country Im sure has a much larger effect on them. While Rome did indeed fall in upon itself, we now have modern Europe in its place. You are making the same mistake as Malthus and assuming that everything will stay the same or that things will change at the same rate that you seem to think they are changing now.
Some advice that you can take or leave. Im not meaning to offend but just offering some constructive criticism.
You could probably convince others of your ideas much better if you used a different tact with them rather than calling them fools. Simply say that you disagree and why. Your way of doing things puts people on the defensive instantly and you wont gain many converts to your way of thinking that way.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 3:34PM
But TH, in defense of Tim, they almost always ARE fools. Tim has this thing about calling 'em like he sees 'em. Shouldn't need to find fault with that.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 4:27PM
Granted but if you want to change opinion it doesnt help to call people names. That is typically something I notice about liberals and its discouraging when I see conservative people do it.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 4:34PM
I agree but maybe it's about time we played by their rules for awhile and see how they like it. Frankly, I kind of like seeing Tim throwing political correctness in the toilet, where it belongs.
cvrgrl| 1.21.12 @ 12:59AM
hummm, tim needs no defense...
tim's got the confidence and ego of a scientist looking down at subjects
john786, he's just a lab rat
Occam's Tool| 1.20.12 @ 3:29PM
Yes, John786, but in this case it IS due to faith.
Let me put it precisely to you. I, as a Jew, move comfortably in Skokie, IL, which is Jewish. I move comfortably in Cullman, AL, which is Evangelical.
I wouldn't step foot in Malmo without a 357, because of people like you.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 4:10PM
Occam,
If you are Jewish you must have a very very shallow view of history. The christains have been exterminating Jews for two millennia. Then again what do I know about.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 4:31PM
Read my post above. Christianity, unlike Islam, is not committed to a static state. Islam is the same today as it was when Mohammed first sexually assaulted a 9 year old girl in front of her mother, doing so in the name of Allah. Your cult's treatment of women is an affront to any civilized human being. Islam will never move past its innate brutality because it can't. The tenets of its faith won't allow it to. Yours is a gutter cult, seething with hatred for your fellow man. You worship a god of hatred and death and, in no fashion, do you belong among the families of those whose faiths worship a God of love and life.
John786| 1.20.12 @ 7:09PM
When exactly did this love in between Jews and christains begin. 1945. You crack me up. The rapturers only support Jews because theyre part of the end time narrative. Jews are better of sticking with Muslims.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:52AM
The kindness of Christians has been present in the US since the start of this country. Jews in Moslem countries have ALWAYS been second class citizens. You are an idiot, John786. Further, islam is still stuck in the 600s.
John786| 1.22.12 @ 7:38AM
No doubt there have been kind people throughout history of all faiths including a great many very very many good christains. But that doesn't wipe out two millennia of extermination. What do you suppose that the rapturers have in stall for the Jewish people. You are not only demonstrably a racist based on your comments but also an idiot with no sense of history.
KennesawJack| 1.20.12 @ 3:36PM
You have obviously not spent much time in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, or the suburbs of Paris.
PolishKnight| 1.20.12 @ 10:07AM
It's not just the Europeans in denial but also many conservatives in the states and I've been pilloried for pointing it out.
For starters, the chivalrous welfare state in theory should see women having plenty of children since it's profitable for them to do so especially in super female friendly countries such as Sweden. The problem is that the expense and work (more on this later) of two parent middle class families to raise children is a burden. Having large families without severe negative impact is largely something for the lower, welfare class and unwed mothers.
Next, who needs growing populations? As societies evolve, there are less people needed to work on farms. Land is no longer tilled by hand or by oxen and machines are being developed to automate most harvesting functions. But...
In generous welfare states such as Europe and even the USA, most lower class women are not going to want to do such work including working as nannies and daycare to take care of bourgeoisie children. They get paid just to stay at home and breed future anti-western children. And the men? If they work at a low wage job, they'll see most of the money go in taxes and "child" support so better to just become a criminal. In addition, in a "free market" even menial labor will pay a decent sum if people need it, right? But "conservatives" look the other way at breaking the law because small businesses need someone to pick grapes (similar to the way they overlooked companies dumping PCB's in the water 100 years ago to provide jobs.)
And, of course, once immigrants get their citizenship papers and on welfare, that's the end of getting any useful work out of them which makes such conservatives above stupid in addition to greedy and amoral when they support amnesty (hello McCain!)
The single most useful thing to preserving a society isn't having lots of baby making women. Women and babies don't defend borders, put up drywall, work in 100 degree heat putting tar on the roads, etc. That's done by adult full time workers whom are mostly men and in a "women and children first" society, these men are considered disposable and undesirable and that's how McCain (hello again) treated that demographic and look at what it got him. How did all those women and amnesty proponents vote?
And there you go. Western men let the women and children go first and proudly let themselves drown and then the women and children without defenders also drown. Just like East Germany in 1945 facing the Soviets. With that kind of attitude, who knows? Maybe the West deserves it! Which direction faces Mecca? Got prayers coming up...
AgentRose| 1.20.12 @ 10:16AM
FINALLY! Someone is talking about the elephant in the room, soon to be charging toward the U.S. Steve Mosher has been fighting the lies of global population alarmists since 1979.
Some of the U.S.'s most illustrious population alarmists include Al Gore who advocated population control to control global warming!: “One of the things we could do about it is to change the technologies, to put out less of this pollution, to stabilize the population, and one of the principle ways of doing that is to empower and educate girls and women. You have to have ubiquitous availability of fertility management so women can choose how many children have, the spacing of the children… You have to educate girls and empower women. And that’s the most powerful leveraging factor, and when that happens, then the population begins to stabilize and societies begin to make better choices and more balanced choices.”
In Gore’s "dialectical thinking" two falsehoods make a truth!
Steve Mosher is president of Population Research Institute http://www.pop.org/
The truth comes out in dribbles....
In 1979, Steven was the first American social scientist to visit mainland China. He was invited there by the Chinese government, where he had access to government documents and actually witnessed women being forced to have abortions under the new “one-child policy.” Mr. Mosher was a pro-choice atheist at the time, but witnessing these traumatic abortions led him to reconsider his convictions and to eventually become a practicing, pro-life Roman Catholic.
Don't think that population control won't be part of Obamacare.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:47PM
The fact that any civilized person opposes forced abortions doesn't mean we in the West have an obligation to go out and produce quiverfulls of children. Small families are fine.
JohnR22| 1.20.12 @ 5:50PM
Did you read in the article that a maintenance rate of 2.1 kids per female is required to maintain the status quo? And that a birthrate of about 2.7 provides the required level of population growth?
I don't consider this a "quiver full" as you apparently do.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 12:55AM
Seek:
the first question history always asks when it goes knocking is "who's there?"
Take down and read C.M. Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons." Big Western families that support themselves are a good thing. A VERY good thing.
Seek| 1.23.12 @ 3:34PM
Suppose they don't support themselves. Suppose instead they see each new child as an opportunity to collect tax credits and welfare payments, plus private sectarian help. I don't feel like supporting those who won't support themselves.
ella8| 1.20.12 @ 10:47AM
The supporters of intergenerational wealth transfer schemes (Social security, public employee pensions) think they can have their cake and eat it too. Population decline would not be a problem if these retirement schemes did not exist. Funny though that many supporters of Planned Parenthood also support these schemes. Some people argue that without a safety net people tend to have many children in hopes that they will be taken care of in old age. It turns out the old maid down the street who aborted all of her children still depends on the next generation, she just depends on someone elses investment in the future.
ella8| 1.20.12 @ 10:51AM
Perhaps one's social security payments should be dependent on how many children they sacrified for and put in the effort to raise up (obviously excluding those who have medical reasons for not bearing children).
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 11:29AM
As a person without children I assure you I pay enough in taxes to feel like I am sacrificing for other peoples children. You are welcome. Just because someone achieves some sort of basic biological function doesnt make them some sort of hero.
ella8| 1.20.12 @ 1:09PM
I would be happy for you to keep your money and I would be happy for my family to not have to pay payroll taxes and property taxes for retired teachers. I will be happy to homeschool my kids, evventually all of our taxes will be going to pay the pensions anyways and all of the programs will have to be cut annd the number of teachers reduced.
ella8| 1.20.12 @ 1:21PM
I never said it made me a hero, I just don't think it is my children's responsibility to pay for you social security.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 2:34PM
I do very well on my own thanks. Im not counting on SS to be there when I retire anyway. Im sorry if I seemed offensive but I get tired of people with children throwing it in my face how wonderful it all is. Then in the next sentance complain about their spouse kids etc etc. All they have accoplished is a basic biological function that in all probability they have no way of affording themselves. This includes 90% of the population that have children. Some how by acting rationally to economic indicators I am flawed in my decision not to get married or to have children. I dont mind paying taxes for the education of children. I think in general it benefits our society greatly. What I dont like is people insinuating that somehow Im evil or not a man for not being married and spreading my DNA. If thats what makes you happy you are more than welcome to your happiness. At least have the curtesy to respect my choices and I will respect yours.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 1:04AM
TH, sorry, but I pay the same taxes AND pay for the upkeep of the future workers who will be paying your nursing home bills. I think you need some kids, guy. 1) because you're Conservative, and 2) because you are missing the taste of crow. After you have your 1st kid, let me know if you still feel the same way. It is not a "basic biological function," Mr. Krupp. My children are not mine "biologically" at all. But they are MINE in their thoughts, in the fact that my son responds to patriotic movies like "Red Tails,"in the fact that both my kids know they have to work hard for their living, in the fact that both think Barack Obama is a turd in a punchbowl. The passing on of "memes" is the key.
My son was born deaf in one ear, with a microtia. But his mind was GOOD. (Is good, and he holds open doors for ladies, and is patient with younger children, and is a kind boy) I knew it would be difficult to find any one else to adopt him given the factors going on in Guatemala. So I did. He is more than worth every penny spent on his medical care and adoption costs. He is MY boy.
I feel sorry for you, Mr. Krupp, if you let liberal scum deprive you of this blessing.
Claypoole| 1.22.12 @ 9:45AM
Yes, OT, children are a blessing. Not a "punishment," as Obama famously said.
All our children and grandchildren came home this past Christmas, and as we sat opening gifts on Christmas morning, the words of Psalm 86 came to me over and over, "I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart and I will praise Your name forever."
I would never criticize anyone who chose not to have children (unless, of course, they killed those children through abortion), but I do wish that somehow they could understand the great joy that parents are blessed with. Then they might change their minds.
Peppermint Tea| 1.20.12 @ 11:29AM
The demographic problem of Europe is moving to our eastern shore. 1.1 births/woman.
The underlying reason is the decay/destruction of the family. Why do European women need a husband when they have the government providing their basic needs? Socialism=decay. The first stage is the high rate of out-of-wedlock births (41% in US), then fewer and fewer children. Demographics = destiny.
contretemps| 1.20.12 @ 11:58AM
True, PT. And why does a man need a wife when he can have all the full scale of today's defined dating in one casual (no responsibilities, no commitments) relationship after another until well into his 50's. Maybe even longer.
Some of our societial/cultural biggest champions have been complete jiggolos. Start with Elvis. The Rat Pack in Hollywood. Presidents like JFK and Clinton included. Bill Clinton introducing 'oral sex' into daily parlance spoken of in the same tones as the next 5-day weather forecasts.
Every TV sitcom from Cheers to people obcessing about Charlie Sheen.
No need for a man to get married. I don't want to introduce anyone here to something, but just look in your Yellow Pages. Look under the letter "E." "E" as in Entertainment or "Escorts." Odd? Such a burgeoning line of work. Your region's/city's Yellow Pages is not averse to taking the paid monies to place these adverts.
Would this all have been so just 30 years ago?
Even at ASO there are men on staff (and contributors) who lionize Hugh Heffner.
So a male can go the solo now for.... a lifetime.
Yet, there is every need for most adult males and females to indeed be in a loving, pure, right marriage. No, it is not an imperative. However it is probably the best this life can offer nearly 90% of all of us.
We reject this life model (that has stood the test of centuries) and let an incessant Madonna-Michael Jackson-Lady GaGa noise machine (inferno) drown out the truth.
We are not shortsighted; we are so blind.
Europe's birth woes are ours as well. The newborns in your local hospital are more often than not from recent immigrant women, both legal and illegal.
THKrupp| 1.20.12 @ 12:21PM
If you think escorts and prostitution are something new you should read Benjamin Franklin's biography. I think its not a new invention and has been around since the beginning of time. As for being the best this life can offer...I disagree. The most unhappy people I know are people that are married. Married people should do a better job of selling this institution they believe so strongly in. Instead I listen to a constant stream of complaining from every married person I know about their spouse. Doesnt matter if its male or female. At least fake it like they did in the past.
PolishKnight| 1.20.12 @ 1:38PM
Actually, the concept of semi-legalized prostitution was introduced with what is now known as the "traditional" dinner date: men taking out women for a few dates until it's established that either the relationship move forward (sex) or he walks. In a modern era when women earn the same as men (or more), men simply cannot afford (literally) to just pay for women's companionship with nothing in return. Before then, courtship was done in the presence of families and no hanky panky (or bribery.)
Ironically, it was the prohibition of prostitution that caused the pressure for the current system where most women have engaged in some form of pseudo prostitution. Men such as Abraham Lincoln went to brothels and sowed their oats and then could reserve family values with normal women.
Regarding complaining about your spouse: If my wife stops complaining about me, she's probably secretly looking for a divorce or cheating (and griping about THAT guy). She annoys me a lot of the time too, but I can't imagine life without her now.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 1:49PM
Jay Leno once quipped: What do call someone who does everything wrong? Answer: A husband!
Pete| 1.20.12 @ 2:49PM
Amen, as I was just told I don't rinse out my coffee cup correctly.
Petronius| 1.23.12 @ 1:58AM
Add to it the question Rush asked.
"Who is the most persecuted minority on earth?
The Individual.
JohnR22| 1.20.12 @ 5:45PM
Sad but true. IMO the primary culprit is unrealistic expectations. 70 years of our entertainment media has created an expectation for kids that they're supposed to be wealthy, beautiful, successful, etc. And the typical romance is portrayed largely as the head-over-heals "in love" fantasy of romance novels; an objective few regular people actually achieve. IMO most young people have wildly unrealistic expectations about what's feasible in a relationship and inevitably feel cheated by what they get.
Seek| 1.20.12 @ 7:30PM
Somehow I don't think that Harlequin Romance novels and movies starring Julia Roberts can be held liable here.
Tuesday| 1.21.12 @ 12:30AM
Seek, Seek, Seek.....? How many times can one man be wrong on the same page -- all on the same day?
JohnR22, you are right. Fiction books and fiction movies and plays are just that -- fiction. But the promulgated myths about what an adult courting relationship is to be, what it ought to be, and then marriage, well, they are completely off.
One dolt posting here today suggests (above) that the implicit follow-up act for a woman who has been treated to several dinners in restaurants by a guy is then obligated to sleep with him. This under the rubric of "dating."
Really?
Several years ago I spent a week at the University of Chicago campus. An interesting place. But a completely backward, fallen and hedonistic one when it comes to interpersonal relationships. I was visiting a friend who had taken a position there to work/study. He was able to soften his expenses by agreeing to be a RD, Resident Director for the on campus living for the students.
What my friend and his wife encountered on the knowledge, habits, and deeds of the university students in their "relationships" cannot be printed on this page.
Anyone unfamiliar with the U. of Chicago should know that it is one of America's (supposedly) elite places of academia. The very greatest well-heeled of our nation (and the world) often park their offspring their to obtain their gilded degrees.
Please wipe away the U. of C. facade. View kids that are born with silver spoons in their mouths but who are too often within fractions from a second of suicide, binge drinking, escapades, mayhem or just personal self destruction through meds and drugs. Every manner of illicit activity is underway there.
As to the univeristy students' understanding of a relationship between a man and a woman?
No such understanding. No such grasp. No knowledge of how to date/court as a gentleman and remain chaste. No such concept or even hint of follow-through on the notion of fidelity.
I share this to illustrate the massive illusions and falsities that our under 30 Americans confront: Divorces everywhere. Paternity lawsuits. Failed child support. DNA testing weekly as a means to adjudicate who is "responsible." The NFL star that will make the game winning play on Sunday is a deadbeat husband and dad two times over already. Ditto for his "colleague" in the NBA or the recently crowned NCAA All-American. Have we all forgotten that even 12 and 13 year olds understand the Tiger Woods story? They grasped same when the press was obsessing on Anthony Wiener just a few months back. Or when Mark Sanford went AWOL on his wife and four boys. Oh? And the U. of C. faculty? No better at all really. Same for what these kids read in the Chicago Sun Times and Tribune.
This ongoing moral confusion does not help a young man find the right girl, court her right, win her heart, and settle down with her at 25 and 26 to start a family, now does it?
See --- We adults contribute mightily to this birthrate demise of our land. We do so every day by our lack of direct action to effectively and deliberately push back (kick back) against the MSM, leftist agenda actors' guilds, Hollywood, the record label companies, Time-Warner, even Disney.
Or? What did you do this week?
Oh, I apologize. You NFL fans have been fomenting rebellion at the NFL for having Madonna as the halftime entertainment.
Right.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 1:08AM
Tuesday---interestingly enough, there are more women than men on the college campuses. When I was in Med School this pattern was just beginning. made for interesting exploits at the University of Illinois.
Seek| 1.23.12 @ 3:39PM
A brief quip on my part was not intended as a full argument. But my point remains: What many call "cultural decay" really isn't that. Moreover, a lot of the alleged sources of decay have plenty of kids of their own - Mick Jagger, for one, has seven. Bruce Sprinsteen has four.
I reject any and all arguments that this nation needs pre-1960s shame-oriented retro-culture, a la Paul Weyrich, to set things right. We've got a pretty good country right now. Far from perfect. But still pretty good.
cicero| 1.20.12 @ 3:05PM
The demagrahics of the country demand that the next generations will be placedd in a bind. The very wealthy, who advocated the childless by choice, or one child family, will do just fine. Those who will depend on welfare will have to turn feral to survive. The middle class will be reduced to a confused huddle. Our middle class is not reproducing itself. The only thing that scews the numbers to make it look like America is not sitting on a demographic bubble is the propagation of the underclass. They will not support the aged of a few years from now. They will have to prey on them, as they will not even be able to support themselves, never having had to, thanks to our ever expanding welfare state.
As for me, early on I investedd heavily into small children. My investment has grown expnentially, and will provide me with adaquate (or better) food, clothing andd shelter in my old age. In the mean time, I cultivate the new seedlings, and continue to work as hard as I am capable of to keep the garden in reasonable shape.
Mark in LA| 1.20.12 @ 5:28PM
This is a completely ridiculous premise and only people dumb enough to assume that "the economy" is the be-all and end-all of society will fall for it. The population has to stabilize some time. Why not now? Bringing in a bunch of foreigners alien and hostile to the indigenous populace only so that some employer has a workforce is the height of stupidity for a nation and a people. If there are too many elderly, they will have to work longer and society will work out the problems.
Japan is doing everything right by keeping people out and keeping Japan Japanese. You won't have millions of low income Phillipinos rioting that they are being mistreated. You won't have them stealing from the elderly Japanese in their care because "they deserved it". Kids will have to take some time out for their elderly parents - what is so bad about that?
JohnR22| 1.20.12 @ 5:39PM
Mark, you need to re-read the article. It clearly states that a birth rate per woman of 2.1 is required to maintain the status quo (i.e. stabliziation). All the countries in europe are FAR below this.
As you have fewer workers supporting more retirees, you've got two choices; cut benefits or importing labor. Making people work longer doesn't get you much as most people are physically/mentally incapable of performaning past a certain age. Your statements about the problems with importing massive amounts of foreign labor from hostile cultures is correct; it's not a viable solution.
Mark in LA| 1.21.12 @ 11:58AM
No John I don't think you get it. You think it is a problem if some business disappears because they can't find workers. That isn't a problem as long as the basic needs of the people are being met and they are happy. Japan is using robots to do menial chores. In the same way they have tube hotels for people making quick stop-over visits, they will find a way to care for the elderly with fewer people and the elderly of Japan will accept the sacrifice for their children's well being.
The saintly businessman isn't the be-all and end-all of society.
Pat| 1.20.12 @ 6:42PM
Mark, you drew the right bead on this issue. But then how to explain those present millions of “undocumented workers”, as we euphemistically call them in California. Sounds like bringing in these foreigners is the Final Solution and the plan is already in motion and has been for the past several decades.
And someone in Washington or a wannabe presidential candidate has the actual backbone to tell Americans to work longer and do with less? They’re going to stand up on their hind legs and tell elderly voters to suck it up? Your solution is common sense, it’s not pretty but very realistic – however, I suspect you aren’t receiving millions in campaign contributions and frequent favors you don’t report on your tax return from certain unnamed constituents.
dusk| 1.20.12 @ 7:45PM
Pat, this is precisely why we'll never hear anything but empty hot air from politicians, judges, and even top law enforcement officials on ending illegal immigration or truly closing our southern border with Mexico.
Politicians long ago resigned themselves to the calculus that only immigration in large numbers (both legal and illegal) can stave off
Utlimately illegal immigrants rarely get deported home. They, over time, just become part of the fabric of the nation.
In politicians minds, this is the solution. One needs a massive 20 - 50 year old work force to prop up all the taxation social projects that big government offers.
When your own people don't produce the offspring, you open the flood gates to the Third World arrivals.
Again, this is why no politician or even DHS official who wants to rise the career greasy pole will ever do anything meaningful to terminate uncontrolled immigration into the United States.
reyn| 1.20.12 @ 8:02PM
ummm Mark, Japan is in a demographic death spiral. Are you really so cossetted and unread as to fail to realize this?
Mark in LA| 1.21.12 @ 12:05PM
This is a very stupid statement. There is no such thing as a "demographic death spiral" this nonsnsne was invented by the people who support unlimited immigration into places the indigenous people don't want it. Japan has over 100 million people on the islands the size of California. Do you mean there is absolutely nothing that can be done and in 20 years Japan will be completely depopulated. Start using you head, if Japan truely needs more peopl,e the birthrate can be goosed higher with government policy.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 1:11AM
Not after the women hit 40, Mark. Ever review the rates of Down syndrome and age?
Actually, I want the Japanese to breed more Japanese.
Occam's Tool| 1.22.12 @ 1:09AM
Mark:
Japan is having a catastrophic population decline. It will impolode their economy in the next 20 years. There is a reason they lead the world in the development of robotic grandchildren.
Mark in LA| 1.22.12 @ 5:18PM
Another stupid statement. Their economy will not "implode". Just how gullible to stupid nonsense are you people? So Japanese corporations don't have as big a footprint worldwide as they do now. The idea that this is some kind of catastrophe to be avoided at all costs including importing millions of people is ridiculous.
JohnR222| 1.20.12 @ 5:34PM
I agree with the article, but not with it's explanation of the causes of Europe's low birth rates. IMO it's primarily an issue of disposable income. With Europe's sky-high tax rates, the average citizen has disposable income that's a fraction of what we have in the US. Kids are expensive; it quickly becomes a choice of having a second child or a higher standard of living (e.g. slightly larger apartment, nicer vacation, a few more toys, etc.). Most Europeans opt not to have the child. Of course, culture likely plays a role as well; IMO europeans are more cynical and pessimistic than americans in general. Given the horror of the first half of the 20th century it's no wonder why.
dusk| 1.20.12 @ 7:30PM
JohnR, they also have no space in European 2 1/2 room apartments, no physcial space in which to live. Ever notice how tiny their homes are? Or that a 50 year old has resigned himself (he did so already two decades ago) that he'll never live in anything larger than a 6th story apartment.
The smallness of an apartment is rarely an incentive for childbearing.
And, yes, this too is economics. The Europeans have boxed themselves in mightily with just what you say, the daily, weekly, year-to-year costs of living and taxation.
The costs of their social-welfare state are a massive incentive's to having children. [And this is what is occurring in Canada and the U.S. It is the same liberal/governmental plan. They achieve the liberal utopia of no children through the expense every adult knows of just living.]
A man and woman can live a bit with a baby that cries in the night and wakes repeatedly if the baby is two doors down. Same for children that are always loudly playing at 6 a.m. on Saturdays. Even more so when that child becomes the noisy teen with even nosier friends.
When I cruise through neighborhoods and see oversized houses in the U.S. I have to think that a lot of that U.S. square foot home size (not necessarily size of the lot) is due to man's desire for his own space.
My hypothesis: We believe we can attain a measure of greater domestic tranquility through "buffer zones" built into our homes.
Space in homes serves as a buffer to soften the human-t0-human issues. Men love a basement where they can get away for a bit and just be with the tools and tinkering on various projects. Even better if it is a small work shed or efficiency away from the house itself.
These extra rooms and the extra space are extreme luxuries that the apartment owner (or lifetime apartment renter) of Europe does not know and will never know. Even free standing houses in Europe are dinky compared to what Americans have become accustomed to since the 1970's suburbia projects.
Ever see the face of a European woman visiting a real American home for the first time? Watch her face when she enters the kitchen and looks around.
This, too, in my observations of European living is a reason for their great reluctance toward children or having more than just one.
Europeans live on top of one another. Just on the other side of three walls in the average "home" is another renter or another family.
Again, just my hypothesis. They've priced child rearing out. And their tiny space in which to live offers little incentive to wish for a brood of children.
reyn| 1.20.12 @ 7:59PM
Europe's demographix are a slow-motion train wreck, unprecedented in world history, without even the Black Death and its aftermath of recovery to provide guidance. This is because Europeans have brought this suicide on themselves voluntarily, and with the same acumen about the unfolding downspiral as Spain's & Germany's laughable, hideous locked-in overinvestments in ludicrous 11% efficient solar electric. Dolts.
First Advisor| 1.20.12 @ 8:02PM
Like all such fearmonger sensationalism, the article presupposes there is something bad or wrong with a shrinking population. This presumption is based on no available avidence or facts, rather nothing but fairytale fantasy world speculation and extrapolation. As in every period of history, benign neglect and withholding of services from the medical business can easily take care of an excess population in some age cohorts. That is probably unofficial, tacit policy in many Western hospitals right now, including the USA. Only fools would try and deny that those in the USA who can afford their own medical treatments get far better service than those who can't.
In a time when robotics and genetics are just reaching their practical and useful beginnings, fearmongering over falling populations must be the epitomy of brainless stupidity and delusion. If Americans want to accuse others of living in a state of acute denial, they should start their own honest dialogue on the facts that blacks and latinos are genetically stupid, and make up 30 percent of the American population. The rest of the planet feels that it's about time Americans stopping making those subjects taboo and verboten.
ALO| 1.20.12 @ 11:28PM
First Advisor, you've missed the point of the article completely and that of most posters. No, there would not necessarily be something bad about a very significantly declining population, fewer new births, and simultaneous longer life expectancy for your seniors now living well into their 70's and 80's.
That isn't necessarily a bad scenario --
Except:
1. Having no children is the loudest "vote" in life. No offspring is your society's lack of belief in itself and its own future. This is a psyche, soul, and moral judgement and it speaks to man's discontent, his absence of hope. His uncertainties. Frankly, his lack of convictions and confidence.
Having no babies is Europeans loudly voting "no confidence."
2. Having no children that start work at 18 imperils all of our tax and spend societies.
The only thing that props our societies up right now is those in the work force working at least 40 paid hours per week AND paying into our myriad of taxes and social infrastructure.
You do get this, right? Ever been to Europe? From Helsinki to Lisbon the whole thing topples the moment you have a lopsided number of retirees + those retiring in the next 10 years versus nobody entering the work force (either because that person does not exist or there is no job available).
They don't just have a lack of jobs; they have a deficit of children/teens.
That spells societal collapse. That's real. That's eminent. That is not fearmongering. A big reason that Greece will never climb out of its mess is that its demographic for citizens aged 15 - 40 is much smaller than Greeks aged 50 - 75. And the generation younger than 15 is smaller still.
This is easy math.
Additionally, please explain your comment about robotics. Not sure how this would help; no robot can boost a nation's tax revenues to pay for the state's mammoth infrastructure.
Mark in LA| 1.21.12 @ 12:23PM
ALO - maybe I just can't help myself and maybe I should have let Firstadvisor ream you but when you state this:
1. Having no children is the loudest "vote" in life. No offspring is your society's lack of belief in itself and its own future. This is a psyche, soul, and moral judgement and it speaks to man's discontent, his absence of hope. His uncertainties. Frankly, his lack of convictions and confidence.
It is obvious you didn't bother to read his hirst paragraph because he points out that the premise is put forward on noting more than speculation. How do you know why Europeans are not having more children? Maybe it is because they have small places when they live in cities and realize that their childhoods were so much less richer than their chidren due to the extra space each child has and they have more time to invest in and nurture their child and make for a richer period of parentage. I make just as many assumptions as you with just as much proof and we can argue it all day but mine sounds more realistic.
ALO| 1.21.12 @ 11:35PM
To Mark:
Except this: I believe -- could be wrong -- that you are an American. LA? Is probably Los Angeles, yes? As in, you live in California. I doubt you've done more than just visit even for a few weeks in your entire lifetime Europe. Otherwise you would know the truth I write.
European men, in particular, are not wishing children for a whole variety of issues. But it is summed up in their lack of faith and lack of hope and confidence in their local, national, and regional future. This would rarely be mentioned because it is a cry of "no confidence" for all that Europe has become.
And no one likes to show this truth in the collective mirror, to face this truth.
I lived there, in Europe, until very recently and lived there for over 45 years of my life.
Except for parts of Eastern Europe further east of Poland and Hungary, I know every part of Europe. There is no big city or famous place I have not seen, often several times in my life.
That is why I can write these words. It is not, as you say, speculation.
I could be wrong about you, Mark. Maybe you live in Greece? Or in Portugal? Or in Spain? Do you?
Please let us here know.
I have met and worked with all strata of Europeans, all my life. When I write that the decisions made by men to marry late, never marry, delay marrying and to so often avoid children at all costs whether married or not, I am writing from what I know and observe. This is as true in half of Italy as it is in the mainstream that inhabits Paris.
This is not "speculation." It is the decisions and consequences of the very people I have lived with all my life.
I know of friends, acquaintance, former work colleagues, all with what one would call famous family names. Well, for some of these my peers, now a man in his fifth decade of life, due to having no wife or no offspring, he will be the last with this family name. The family name stops with him and will ultimately stop with his death. This is very stunning when you think about it.
This is not speculation.
Tony in Central PA| 1.20.12 @ 8:04PM
In the last century, more people have died over ideas than ever before in human history. I suppose it can be argued that this is because there are more people. But I'd be willing to bet that a larger proportion of people than ever before died over ideas.
Since the Enlightenment, Europe increasingly turned its back on its Christian cultural identity. We have had a series of -isms ever since that have visited one horror after another upon Europe. The worst of which will probably be called individualism. The secular humanist proponents continue their steadfast refusal to acknowledge this as any sort of empirical outcome of their worldview.
More recently something has changed. People aren't just dying as a result of bad ideas, they aren't being born in the first place. The culture of individualism that has firmly taken hold makes every person the moral architect of his own universe. The fundamental cell of the organism of society isn't the family, its the individual. Children are inconveniences, a barrier to self - fulfillment and autonomy. Not only that, they're bad for the planet. That's right. If you choose to have children you're a selfish, inconsiderate fool.
I recently read a book about the history of the Middle Ages that covered the Albigensian or Cathar society of 12th and 13th century France. The striking similarities between the beliefs of this society and what has come to dominate Western European society has convinced me they will suffer the same fate.
POST American| 1.20.12 @ 9:44PM
---------------------FINAL WORD-----------------------
"Any foreigner travelling America
quickly realizes Americans NEVER
loved the land the way Europeans did.
NEVER."
-D H Lawrence
(letters)
And a more recent traveller
"Everywhere you go, you see the buildings
and houses are thrown up, provisional,
not built to last. I really get the feeling the
long term agenda is calling for there to
be NO people there. REALLY.
Remember, the psychopaths at the
top deal in centuries."
----And so are 'dealing' with you.
----------------HUAC/ Nuremberg 2012---------------
Nemo| 1.21.12 @ 4:02AM
Australia under the Howard Government and Treasurer Peter Costello managed to turn the population implosion round by tax incentives. Any country can do it.
Mike Hawk| 1.21.12 @ 9:45AM
Marriage and child custody laws in the US (anyway) are not father friendly. Why would any young man want to be a father when the environment is so hostile. Fathers in custody cases are largely the losers. The ex gets the kids and his money and he in many cases never gets to see his kids and be a father to them. Often, the mothers hostility is destructive. Parental Alienation is not conducive to kids growing up and wanting the same for their kids.
ALO| 1.21.12 @ 11:48PM
Yes, Mike. Divorce is the biggest killer of the family. It destroys both the current family and the families that may or could yet be.
No boy of 17 simmering and smoldering from a divorce will do well in dating and relationships with women in his 20's and he will a) delay marrying, b) if he marries, be twice as likely to also divorce when the marriage hits a rocky patch. The same for the girl.
Divorce is the avalanche that gains speed and mass.
If one stands before any group of university students today, one cannot be sure. But most likely over half are from broken homes. (with some of these students their "brokenness" is worn louder on their clothing and gear than any designer label) In six months of working with a student, it is very obvious which ones come from loving, stable homes.
Divorce as a cultural norm means a broken society. And it imperils our future.
Seek| 1.23.12 @ 3:42PM
Baloney. My parents divorcing when I was 12 was probably the best thing that ever happened to me as a kid -- aside from discovering the Rolling Stones and the Who.
POST American| 1.21.12 @ 9:15PM
"--Of course you could end the
problem of promiscuity and abortion
overnight by simply introducing
the most natural of laws ---that the
father of the child, inside of wedlock
or out, ----is financially and morally
responsible for it. But, alas, Rockefeller
EUGENICS won't hear ot it."
-----------ALAS. . .
AS EVER
----------------HUAC-Nuremberg 2012----------------
Supertradmum | 1.22.12 @ 8:18AM
Even Malta, supposedly the most Catholic nation in the world, which it is not, has one of the lowest birthrates of 1.5 children per woman, yet all the time I have spent there, I have heard nothing of this huge problem. The only reason for growth is immigration, which will change the culture even more. The West is committing suicide.
Mark in LA| 1.22.12 @ 5:24PM
That is because the globalist leaders are telling the native people it is unjust to keep people out and forcing immigration on them. The west is not committing suicide - the leadership is committing genocide.
POST American| 1.22.12 @ 9:43PM
"Understand folks, when you have a news
item like the nearing 90% infertility of
males across the west getting just a
cute smile button cover on Time
---and NO in depth discussion,
let alone ALARM ---you KNOW
it's 'part of the plan'."
AGAIN folks,
---BOTTOMLESS EUGENICS
------------------------is out ------for ----YOU.
---------------HUAC/ Nuremberg 2012----------------
The Obama Timeline | 1.26.12 @ 6:40PM
Don't worry... the gap will be filled by Muslim babies. Europe will be Eurabia. (Well, it already is in some areas, like Paris, France and Malmo, Sweden.)
M Pearlstein| 1.26.12 @ 7:03PM
The key is to increase the birth rates of productive populations, while ensuring stability in largely dependent populations.
In this respect Mr Gregg's advice about political correctness is warranted - people need to recognise the research on population IQ & economic productivity by Heiner Rindermann, Garrett Jones, Joel Schneider & Richard Lynn.
Group or human biodiversity is a result of different geographic and cultural environments favouring selection for different physical and mental traits. Books like "The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution" discuss this.
1389AD | 1.26.12 @ 8:55PM
Nobody wants to reproduce under a socialist system. Moreover, socialist systems promote abortion.
Even after the socialist totalitarian system collapses, the evil heritage remains.
http://1389blog.com/2012/01/26.....in-serbia/
Lgbpop| 1.26.12 @ 10:40PM
What I find interesting is the understatement behind this statement, if you will, in the article quoted:
"Les Etats-Unis ont perdu leurs trois A en août - ils continuent à emprunter à très bon marché. La première puissance économique mondiale bénéficie, il est vrai, avec le dollar, d'avantages que la France n'a pas."
While the main thrust of the article is about the graying of France, there is also the comparison (here) of the lowered credit rating of the French economy versus the lowering of the credit rating of that of the USA. We heard about our credit downgrade just long enough last August to be aware of it before our Obamacentric newsmedia busily started burying the story; the French, ever jealous of the USA, still make note of it and grumble that we can absorb the affect simply because we are the USA. While true to a point, even the mighty USA has been affected and if we continue to emulate Eurosocialism as Obama desires us to do, we will eventually be there ourselves. We have the attention span of a five-year-old, economically - and Obama is taking advantage of that.
We shouldn't be so short-sighted.
M Pearlstein| 1.27.12 @ 3:02AM
***For decades, European governments have been pushing population-control programs upon developing nations (including trying to force them to legalize abortion) by making foreign-aid dependent upon adopting such policies. ***
Actually, this is a good move. These populations are dependent on the shrinking western aid budget. In 1900 the population of sub-saharan Africa was 100 million. In 2005 it was 770 million. By 2050 it could be over 2 billion. That is unsustainable (also a disaster for whatever wildlife is left).
Mistral| 3.4.12 @ 2:36AM
I have been stating this since I was in my teen years - the more Europe and the UN push demographic control the increasing difficulty the developed world will get into and then pull the developing world down with it since it will force others to make the same stupid mistake as they.
So, the EU and UN as well as the USA have not only legislated the morality (and normality supposed) of sterile relationships and mass-government sponsored assault on the sanctity of the womb but they have also blackmailed developing countries into the same myopic suicidal procedures. This is all linked by finance & political manouevring.
And the consequences we can now see before us. More schools and more universities and more education but increased stupidity and an ultimate death-wish for developed society - policies that are designed to destroy life and fruitful relationships. Ones that the last pope rightly called "the culture of death".