The American Spectator

Teflon93| 7.12.09 @ 4:06PM

Schori is only the latest in a long line of heretics, the culmination of this generation's turn away from Christ and his Church and toward pale replacements for Christ's authority.

One cannot serve God and Mammon both---and she doesn't.

Doris Schoenleber| 7.12.09 @ 5:00PM

This bishop will lead the Episcopal Church into apostacy, if they aren't already there.

Mark J. Goluskin| 7.12.09 @ 7:22PM

I am afraid we are already in apostacy, Doris. As a Christian Episcopalian, I went to the convention, participated in the service and went to the convention hall. It was like I was at a Democrat political gathering. Only one sane, traditionalist group was there. The American Anglican Coucil. They were put in a corner of the exhibition hall. I stay in the Church because some one, even if there are fewer and fewer with the intestinal fortitude, has to stand up for Jesus, the Holy Bible and the authentic Christian faith.

Prescott Arizona| 5.14.10 @ 10:22PM

I recently resigned from the vestry and the church after they rejected a purpose statement written for the Christian Formation Commission which would have steered the church away from New Age Gnosticism back to orthodoxy. They said it was "too limiting". That is the definition of "liberal" isn't it? Lots of wiggle room so you can drag anything you want into the church. I finally realized that as an evangelical Christian I did not belong in a secular liberal country club that wears a religious mask. I have come to believe that the best thing conservative Christians within the Episcopal Church can do is to stop financially supporting the liberal takeover of the church and find a traditional conservative Anglican church in their area to support. Stop watering the weeds.

Pedro| 8.30.10 @ 5:47AM

The notions we express denote an ignorance of the historical critical method used in all mainline seminaries. It's not your fault. Concepts like Original Sin, first based on the Hebrew legend of Adam and Eve and now explained away as man's supposedly evil nature, are absurd.

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BD57| 7.12.09 @ 10:07PM

Being as charitable as I can be, the only aspect of the quote that comes close to making any sense is the notion that salvation does not depend on reciting a specific verbal formula. Salvation is a gift from God; we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Our words don't make it happen, at most they evidence that it has happened.

As for the rest of it - it's crap. And that is being kind. Christ didn't die for "the community" - He laid down His life for each and every one of us; He came so that NONE need perish.

MLG| 7.12.09 @ 10:09PM

Go Mark! Be the voice in the wilderness, be the light that shines against the dark. Know that you are not alone, for if God is for you who can prevail against you... No One!

robroy| 7.12.09 @ 10:30PM

Read Schori and some Unitarian blather and you will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Her "sermons" usually have no scripture references, usually only mention Jesus in passing (if at all), but rather talk about this vague god thingy and trying to build heaven on earth through improving relationships.

At General Convention, there are more resolutions about homosexuality than any other topic - this at a time of the denomination's greatest crisis. The liberals that have taken control of the denomination, simply will not let the topic be turned from the secular liberal agenda. In this regard, the answer is that the once former Christian denomination is nothing more than a liberal not for profit.

But I would say there are islands of church within the organization. If you check out Bishop Mark Lawrence of South Carolina, you will find someone grounded in Scripture and dedicated to the Gospel. Incidentally, South Carolina is the only diocese that has shown growth in the past decade. For this South Carolina, rather than being held up, is treated as a pariah.

All very sad and certainly warning to other denominations.

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MattSwartz| 7.13.09 @ 12:36AM

Like all heresies, this one has a kernel of truth. The Church is the place for Christians to be saved, and American Christians, especially my fellow theologically conservative ones, have often de-emphasized this point.

factis| 7.13.09 @ 7:39AM

Gospel of John, 4th chapter: Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that once he'd finished his first sweep of this earthly field there would be no worship in the Temple or any other geographical place. For the past 2000 years the God-ordained pattern is: "worship in spirit and in truth." All God, no man. "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit says the LORD of hosts." (zech4) Old habits die hard.

Andrew B| 7.13.09 @ 7:59AM

As a former Episcopalian, I cannot say that any of this surprises me. There are so many times that one could say "Here is where the Episcopal Church went wrong" that it is hard to choose just one. I will, however, venture a guess and say that the final, fatal blow was when Bishop Pike was not removed from his seat when he announced that he was, in essence, an atheist.

A church that cannot ask atheists to step down (or pagan/deists like Spong) is no longer functioning as a Christian body.

syn| 7.13.09 @ 8:00AM

Social Justice, the serpent's political venom which is poisoning America's religious institutions by preaching to the faithful to lie to God (supporting abortion), cheat Justice (illegal immigration), steal from one's neighbor (redistribution of wealth), celebrate Pride (parades and preening) and motivate anger (class warfare).

I do not believe in the gospel of Social Justice, it is the evil word from the book of Marxism.

Paul| 7.13.09 @ 8:01AM

Sorry Matt. Both my wife and I were saved at home. God can not be placed in a box. How many examples are there in the Bible of people being saved. There was no church at the time.

Tregonsee| 7.13.09 @ 8:05AM

The majority of TEC, with the exception of a few scattered faithful remnants, are now Liturgical Unitarians. Possible nice people, but not Christians by any recognized standard.

Teflon93| 7.13.09 @ 8:20AM

Mark-

God bless you for standing up for Christ!

However, Schori being utterly mistaken (and apparently not having read Matthew's account of individual judgment), salvation is personal, not collective---you should look after your own spiritual well-being first and foremost. If you find that being a lone voice of Christ in the wilderness that is the Episcopal community today leads you toward despair or heresy or uncharity (and you are far stronger than I am if you can take the outrages perpetuated daily by Schori and her ilk without such), be very careful indeed.

I grew up Episcopalian but crossed the Tiber in 2007 and am now on my parish council. It is wonderful to be in a place where I can grow in Christ without having to fight tooth-and-nail with secularists in robes.

Kitty| 7.13.09 @ 8:32AM

I left the Episcopal Church years ago when the Church left me. The minster preached from the pulpit that gays should be able to marry in the Church and that women should be ordained as priests. That was the day I got up and walked out during his rant. And I never returned.
...

Eric Damon| 7.13.09 @ 8:37AM

MattSwartz:

What you are saying about people only being saved in a church has no biblical foundation at all. Peter and John preached the gospel at Solomon's portico and about 5,000 were saved (Acts 3:11-4:4). Philip preached the gospel in Samaria and many heeded his call (Acts 8:4-8); Philip also converted and baptized the Ethiopian eunuch on the road from Jerusalem to Gaza (Acts 8:26-39), and Saul was coverted on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-18). And all of these conversions occured outside the confines of a church!

The church is not essential for salvation, but is primarily a place for instruction and fellowship with the other saints. There is nothing about being in a church that contributes to, or is necessary for the salvation of the individual. Salvation is between man and his God, not man-priest-God, nor man-church-God. Christ is the way to salvation, the only intermidiary between man and God, and salvation relies upon acceptance of Christ as personal Savior and Lord. There is no instruction in the Bible that we must be any particular place to be saved, including a church. Salvation is individual in nature, not a collective experience; it is about the individual submitting himself to acceptance that Jesus is the Christ, that He is our Savior, and installing Him as Lord over our lives. There is nothing heretical about such a fundamental Christian belief, especially one that is so openly preached and exemplified in the Bible.

Caron| 7.13.09 @ 8:52AM

syn - I had to send your comment to several friends.
Andrew and Paul and other biblical believers - great comments too. It's sad to see the falling away of the last days. My sister is with a good pastor, many are not. The Africans are pulling out I hear.

What's with the commercials for business pages?

Terri| 7.13.09 @ 9:23AM

It's becoming clear that trying to appeal to everyone leaves you with nothing to stand on...and no I don't take credit for that I just can't remember the exact quote or source, ha.

jonathon| 7.13.09 @ 9:27AM

Kitty You have discovered two of the main satanic cornerstones of the modern church, along with polygamy and peace a loud warning bell for any christian.
ERIC Jesus established a Church a group of like minded believers so nomatter the location the newly baptised people thy joined Jesus' s Church . As aposty is happening every day we need to be open to the holly spirit for when Christ cleans the church once again. In Australia the Anglicans are spliting over the same issues that are effecting the u. s. a. church .

Glen| 7.13.09 @ 9:42AM

Great comments.

You can follow the goings on at this (and last) week's 2009 General Convention of the Episcopal Church (held every three years), as well as the day in and day out machinations of the Episcopal Church at this site:

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/

ted| 7.13.09 @ 11:06AM

hmmmmmmmm..........
are we christian?

well, yesterday our parish of over 1,000 had THREE celebrations of the holy eucharist and then about 50 folks went off to do volunteer work at the food bank

we have one white married male, one married female adnone BLACK, single priest on staff in a growing and flourishing parish in the mid-south!!

sorry to read all the stories of the folks above, who were not challenged to grow in faith and love, but rather retreated to spiritiual and intellectual laziness in their lives!

please take note, there have been, are now and will be gay lay and clergy, NOT ONLY in the EPISCOPAL CHURCH, but in each and every traditions...we simply dont lie to oursleves and others about it

would you rather be in some racist, fundamentalist, misogynistc tradition?
if so, there are plenty waiting for ya!

be careful, tho....if you dont agree with each and every crazy thing they "believe"
they will run you out on a rail...IN JAY-SUS' NAME, of course!!

Tim| 7.13.09 @ 11:54AM

Sophistry.

ted| 7.13.09 @ 11:54AM

on further reflection, you are welcome to the DIVISIVE "gospels" of iker, duncan, akniola and the rest of that pack of liars and frauds.

they and their "disciples" will have vanished within a decade or two, consumed by their own fear and hatred of anything different and the inabilty to work and pray well with others who dont see the world EXACTLY as they.!

already the "dissidents" are quarelling because some have no problem with women in priestly and episcopal orders, while other declare that "anathema"; others want to go back to 1928 bcp and 1940 hymnal; some the anglican missal; others think the " movement" is too anglo-catholic, others too evangelical, THE bitching, bickering , name-calling and finger-pointing are just beginning!!

tee-hee!

did i mention, they will certainly LOOSE all of their property disputes, save perhaps in virginia?!

jesus gave two commandments...love god and love each other....interestingly, i dont see any evidince of that LOVE with those jokers!

i do see a lot of lying, power-grabbing and vindictiveness!!

anyone out there familiar with the
"reformed episcopal church"?
didnt think so.....................

"they will know we are christians by our love...."
pshaw!!

buhy-buhy!

Mark J| 7.13.09 @ 3:10PM

The second they use an African word ("Ubuntu") they lose me. That is an infallible sign that liberal bullshit is about to follow.

Mark J| 7.13.09 @ 3:15PM

In fact someone should find out the Swahili word for "bullshit" and throw it right back at them when they come up with that stuff.

"Bishop Schori? In the spirit of using African words to give an exotic patina to a concept that can be expressed more clearly in plain English, I'd like to suggest that your screed, er, sermon today embodies the African concept of 'cowploppu', which means "someone who advocates weary liberal bullshit in the guise of christianity."

SJ Reidhead| 7.13.09 @ 8:42PM

As an Episcopalian and a Christian, the constant harping on the possibility that we can't possibly be Christian is well - unChristian. We live, day by day, gritting our teeth over the liberal take-over, but unwilling to submit to the Anglican version of the church promoted by the various African bishops. These are men who have no moral character, allow the rape of young girls to cure AIDS, allow the enslavement of women, and do not consider women very worth-while and not capable of serving Christ in any official capacity.

I do not approve of our presiding bishop, but she is the apex of what I've been told was a well-planned take-over of the Episcopal Church by the liberal faction.

It will take time and patience to take it back. I'm not quitting and am not deserting my church.

SJR
The Pink Flamingo

Palmettoman| 7.14.09 @ 9:40AM

Mark: The loose translation, since you asked, is: ng'ombe dume choo

Ted: The Reformed Episcopal Church in South Carolina is overwhelmingly black -- hardly sounds racist to me.

I know that I can just sense the love dripping from your posts!

Jim| 7.16.09 @ 1:52AM

No, the Episcopal "Church" is no longer Christian by any stretch of the imagination. I was born and raised an Episcopalian. At 43 years of age, I walked out 10 years ago when the pushing of homosexuality, leftwing political rants, and New Age / Wiccan religious practices such as worshipping the Labyrinth and Gaia got too much for me. There are a lot of completely screwed up people in that organization, and Satan is just having a field day.

I belong to a Bible-believing evangelical church now, and am happy that I don't have to deal with all the nonsense in the Episcopal Church but can just worship God. The only that scares me is that God will not be mocked. There is some big time reckoning coming spiritually; you can already hear Satan speaking directly out of the mouths of their leaders and they are going to lead them into greater and greater spiritual condemnation.

susan riegler| 7.16.09 @ 3:29AM

I cannot believe that the episcopal church can still itself a Christian church anymore. Bishop Schori is an evil woman and I think alot of the nonsense she comes up with is to get herself some attention. Talk about a heretic!

Fr. Joe| 7.17.09 @ 12:29PM

Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori is not a Bible scholar or a theologian she is a marine biologist! I would not trust her to speak on behalf of the Almighty on any subject. I really don't understand how the other Bishops decided she was fit for this job!

Eve Nash| 7.17.09 @ 12:58PM

Ted, Your comments are so sad, and so revealing....You are part of why the Episcopal church has become what it is: a Unitarian social concerns agency. It should no longer be considered a church of any kind.

Douglas| 7.17.09 @ 1:31PM

This woman is evil ,bottom line. She has already gotten the church in financial trouble. She will be starved out of office. She can't do crap if she has no money. It is about to hit the fan.

Patrick Bridges| 7.17.09 @ 1:39PM

What defines "Christian" has been well established for over a millenia, and it's succinctly stated in the Nicene Creed. Lots of arguments outside of that, but the Nicene Creed is AFAIK generally accepted as the "sufficient statement of Christian faith" by mainline Churches.

Have the people that claim that the Episcopal Church (TEC) isn't Christian been to a TEC service recently, because the Nicene Creed is recited in every weekly Episcopal service I've ever been to and every weekly service in the Church's Book of Common Prayer. You know, the one that starts:

"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God..."

From what I can tell, the people who claim that TEC isn't Christian don't mean "they don't follow Christ or the profess core Christian doctrine", because if you actually listen to a service, they do. What they really mean, as far as I can tell, is "They don't interpret Leviticus and the letters of Paul like *I* do!" That's a pretty strange definition of Christian, though...

Ally| 7.17.09 @ 1:43PM

The Episcopal Diocese of Dallas has also been thriving in many ways, and should for the most part not be confused with the national church drivel. MANY of us are still serving the church and praying for her to hold fast to Word and Sacrament in these times of the takeover by the Arrogant Ones. I have been called by God to be a full-time priest for these last 25 years and Satan is not going to push me out now.

Bill C| 7.17.09 @ 1:45PM

I live in NH far from any Anglican church and attended a local Episcopal church for a while until I couldn't I realized that there was no worship of a living Lord Jesus but a commitment to exploring and engaging in pagan worship. I also left because I didn't want my daughter exposed to the hypocrisy within this church. Ultimately Jesus meant little to them. Liturgy was recital of words which many of the congregation didn't believe.
People do not have to become Christians in a church.

However, I hugely admire the Christian missionaries who have been called by the Lord to remain in TEC to be a witness to the Living Christ and His saving grace which PB Schori has said to be heresy.

RE: "DIVISIVE "gospels" of iker, duncan, akniola and the rest of that pack of liars and frauds.

Ted: This 'divisive' gospel you refer to is the gospel that Jesus gave us when He told us to go out into the world to spread the Good News of our salvation through His atonement for our sins through His crucifixion and His Resurrection. This is what the disciples and the apostles taught and the early church as it grew taught and this is the gospel we are told to spread.

We are told to love another, to bear each other's burdens, feed the poor -in the name of Jesus. This is an example of the spirit-filled life. These are some of the fruits of His Holy Spirit.

I don't know how you know that '++Duncan , +Iker and ++Akinola are a 'pack of liars and frauds'. You are just ranting and I am sorry for you. You sound very angry and sarcastic. I hope that you realize that you need prayer to overcome this attitude.

robroy| 7.17.09 @ 2:08PM

One can read the liveblogs of the discussion taking place at the General Convention. About 90% is related to gay rights and 9% to the budget crisis (hmmm, think this is unrelated? Can't be!). Is it a Christian church or a gay rights organization? That's an easy one.

And we have the ugliness of liberal racism rearing its head. I might remind the hateful SJ Reid that bearing false witness is one of the top 10 no-no's.

I had the pleasure attending the Anglican Men's Weekend this past May with ABp Orombi. How much discussion of homosexuality? Other than a few questions - essentially zero. Rather we learned and prayed and fellowshiped, equipping us to be better Christian leaders in our communities.

Episcochick| 7.17.09 @ 4:33PM

Ted,

Great Post!!! The conservative Bishop from West Dallas wrote a really nice article on how Conservative Bishops felt included in the process and how others from the HOB reached out to them. 15 other conservative bishops signed it. I think that is a good indicator of how things are going. I agree with you that Bishop Duncan was the wrong choice for the newly formed Anglican group. How could anyone that immoral be chosen for a leadership role in any church. That man thought it was ok to recommend his own brother after he had raped and molested a 14 year old girl. We did listen in the dialogue at Lambeth while Gene Robinson was treated like a leper and the Presiding bishop was not treated much better. The Old Boys club dies hard. We did not ordained one gay bishop but the other side did not not honor the moratorium which specifically stated that other bishops in the communion would not give oversight to parishes during this time.

Karen| 7.17.09 @ 9:59PM

TEC appropriates terms like ubuntu & indaba, but Africans have reported that what TEC is doing is not ubuntu or indaba, because there is no actually honest dialogue, no sharing. It's all one sided. They can natter on about 'love', but what they call love isn't recognizable. They are bitter and angry people, who will never understand what love means, what Christ did for us, that is the sorrowful truth. They can steal buildings and call themselves whatever they wish, but it doesn't mean anything in the end.

michael okeefe| 7.21.09 @ 1:41PM

schori's a fraud ...thats all. let the dead bury the dead.

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Mike Lockaby| 11.23.09 @ 12:05PM

I'm trying very hard to decide whether to laugh or cry at the borderline illiterate comments about Bishop Schorri's sermon. The Episcopal Church, for good or ill, is perhaps the only church today that takes Trinitarian theology and the Patristic heritage seriously—undoubtedly this discomforts a lot of people. But it's hard when you see today as not being fundamentally different from 2,000 years ago, and see the world from "behind the cross," as it were, rather than through a borderline-Talmudic understanding of Christianity, as so many of these posters seem to. The point of Her Grace's sermon was this: that in order for God to be present, two or three of us must be gathered in His Name. Any other understanding of the Gospel is fundamentally Unitarian, or at least non-Trinitarian, and eminently non-Scriptural. It certainly isn't the faith of the Apostles.