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Loose Canons
The Blood-Smeared Glass Ceiling
For cowardice beyond the call of duty, Leon Panetta has shamed himself and his country.
In one of his last acts as Secretary of Defense, Leon Panetta today will revoke the last of the policies that prevent women from serving in combat arms.
Make no mistake about it: this action isn’t about civil rights, equal opportunity, or any of the laudable things America has done in the past fifty years to remove false barriers within the military. This is different. It’s a purely political act that will make our military — and the military families liberals claim to venerate — much weaker than they are today.
Panetta is acting in response to feminists’ demands that women be able to serve in any capacity men do because they will be denied promotion to the higher ranks if they lack combat experience. It’s true that there is a huge number of women of flag rank among the services, some at the top four-star rank. But there surely is a “glass ceiling” in the combat arms that women haven’t broken through.
The problem with this statement of the issue is that the military “glass ceiling” is streaked with blood. If women are to be warriors — and thus earn the right to command other warriors — they have to train like men, live like men, and be able to survive the intense dangers of the modern battlefield as many men do. If they don’t, they cannot gain the respect and admiration that commanders of warriors must have to be effective. Should they be permitted to do that?
There are two components to the question. First and foremost is whether the presence of women will add to or detract from the readiness and capability of the unit to perform its mission. The second is a moral question: Will having women serve in harm’s way benefit our military and society at large?
The question of benefit to society has been mooted politically. To even suggest that women are different from men in important ways — such as the instincts for motherhood and nurturing — is to be outside the realm of permissible political thought. To ask whether those natural instincts should be subordinated to the skills of war is unthinkable, at least to those who want to “gender neutralize” the military.
So we are left with the first question, which has to be answered with a resounding “no.”
Even the Clinton administration had sense enough to keep women out of most of the combat arms. In 1991, legislation lifted the historic ban on American women serving in combat. Congress, under pressure from feminists, declared that women should be able to serve on combat ships and in combat aircraft and told the Defense Department to come up with a scheme to implement it and other criteria for women in combat.
In 1993, Clinton Defense Secretary Les Aspin promulgated DoD policy that allowed women to serve in all but a few categories. First, from assignments at lower than brigade level in units whose principal purpose was combat. Next, where the cost of providing women privacy (in berthing on ships, for example) was prohibitive. In addition, they could be prohibited from serving in units co-located with combat units.
Women were barred, under Aspin’s policy, from long-range reconnaissance and special forces and where job-related physical requirements would necessarily exclude the vast majority of women. Note that all women were barred: there was no exception made for those few who could meet the tough physical and mental standards it takes to qualify for spec ops.
Over the intervening twenty years, women have served in more and more combat roles. They serve as fighter pilots in the Navy and Air Force, and were aboard every Navy warship except submarines until, just a little over a year ago, they were allowed to serve on subs as well. The Army has gradually — and in contravention of Aspin’s directives — allowed women into more and more combat roles.
Panetta’s action will probably complete the destruction of the warrior culture on which the success of our military depends. That culture, developed over the past two thousand years or so, is not uniquely American but our brand of it is. Our warriors take pride in what they do because they do it for America and because they do it better than anyone else. Thus, one of the most important parts of that culture is the objective standards someone has to meet to qualify to join the combat arms.
Every Marine in a rifle platoon, every pilot in a squadron, every special operator has had to meet the standards set for all the others. At least they did until the services began to cave under political pressure to enable women to join combat units.
Perhaps the worst example is what happened to the Navy after the 1990 “Tailhook Convention” scandal in which naval aviators acted like, well, every fighter pilot who ever lived. They drank too much and did dumb things such as publicly shaving the legs of some too-willing ladies they’d invited. It was a frat party worthy of Animal House, but no worse.
Liberals — led by California’s Babsy Boxer and a few others — raised a media feeding frenzy and the Navy’s pusillanimous leaders caved in to their demands. The result was that the Navy let its standards slip in order to shove women into combat roles. Lt. Kara Hultgreen was pushed through training and certified for combat, the first female naval aviator to reach that qualification. But she was certified despite the fact that her superiors knew she wasn’t ready. Hultgreen was killed when she lost control of her aircraft attempting to land on the USS Abraham Lincoln in 1994. The Navy learned its lesson, and its standards were restored.
About the Author
Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (173) | Leave a comment
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Jack in Wi| 1.24.13 @ 6:21AM
Everytime I see a woman in uniform leave her children behnd to go to war, I want to puke. Babbin hits a home run here. I agree with every word. The Republicans had better grow some, or else be replaced.
Stephie| 1.24.13 @ 7:58AM
The Republicans cannot grow a pair Jack. They have been neutered by the left and they are being made irrelevant as we speak.
Bob K| 1.24.13 @ 8:49AM
This won't happen I'm afraid.
The official government policy of Affirmative Action demands no less!
The Republican leadership, led by "Bawlin' " Boehner, has become a parliament of Eunuchs.
mzk| 4.8.13 @ 11:35AM
Yes, everytime I hear a military recruitment commercial aimed at women, I realize this. Even if we make it even, we should not be actively recruiting women, because the percentage that can meet the standards is lower.
Rhoetus| 1.24.13 @ 11:12PM
"The female of the species is more deadly than the male." --Rudyard Kipling
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html
Darin| 1.24.13 @ 6:35AM
Does anyone seriously think America is ready to see an American woman captured and gang-raped for days, all broadcast live (including audio)? The terrorists we're fighting haven proven their evil natures (ask the family of Daniel Pearl), and they also show no qualms about raping women.
When, not if, this happens, the press conference at the Pentagon is not going to be pleasant. Perhaps Leon Panetta can be required to answer questions.
Gary B| 1.24.13 @ 7:09AM
Not to mention the men who will die attempting to rescue such prisoners. Ain't political correctness just great?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 7:47AM
I am.
I prepared to see them Captured, Raped, Gang Raped, Mutilated, and Dragged through the streets so the Mob can Piss on'em.
Maybe they can tape the Rapes, and everyone can watch them on the Internet. Maybe they'll force them to have Sex with Animals, or with each other.
Bring it on! The Sooner it happens the better. The more the Merrier.
Please God, show us, once the Awful Truth of yet another Liberal/Progressive Tenent gone horribly wrong.
From the Great Depression, to the Great Society, to the Great Evil we're witnessing, now. They were gonna FIX things. A Chicken in every Pot. All we got was the Legalized Pot.
LBJ would FIX things for the Black Family, with Welfare. Is the Black Family FIXED? Do I need to run through all the Stats? The number of Out of Wedlock Births. The number of Two Parent Household. The number of Blacks that Drop outta School, haven't had a job in their life, are Rotting in Prison.
Sex education was gonna STOP teenage Pregnancies. They're 10 times what they were.
Birth Control was gonna reduce Pregnancies and the need for Abortion. 1.5 Million Murdered Babies a year.
Unions, like the Tide, would float everyone's boat. They're a Plague on our Cities and States, Run by the Mob, and Protected by the Democrats.
And, now they want a REAL War on Women.
I look forward to those Videos.
Russel| 1.24.13 @ 9:29AM
You have quite the imaginative mind Tim , but those scenarios most likely are likely . Sick , disgusting and savage are the hallmarks of Islam . Look at the coverage the little reporter got after her encounter with the camel jockey's . What I can't wait for are the socialist feminist ' journalist's ' responses . The men will be dumbfounded , way pissed and quiet .
CrackerHound| 1.24.13 @ 10:18AM
It will be blamed on Republicans and the Republican response will be...(crickets)
Russel| 1.24.13 @ 10:32AM
Yeah , something like " You cut the defense spending so far back , women were FORCED into that duty " . They'll come up something along those lines .
Von Mises Jr| 1.24.13 @ 10:51AM
I think that you need to draw the line somewhere. If we let women join the combat ranks, the next thing you know metro-sexual liberal men will want their turn.
It would bad enough to have to compensate for a butch chick, but would our brave men have to save effete little girly men?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 1:36PM
They already do.
"Gays in the Military".
They're performing Gay Marriages on Military Bases, as we speak.
Von Mises Jr| 1.24.13 @ 3:07PM
How scary is that when I try to make a wise ass crack and I am well behind the curve on reality?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 3:49PM
It's very scary.
Maybe if you Sweared More?
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:21PM
And that's why the Iranians have difficulty telling what is real and what is a "The Onion" story.
Tim, have you gotten ahold of "The Marching Morons" yet? By the way, Ken has NOT yet responded to me.
CJW| 1.24.13 @ 8:32AM
Panetta is a clerk following ther orders of emperor Obama.
PJ| 1.24.13 @ 8:40AM
The Muslim terrorists raped & did unspeakable things to Israeli female soldiers during 1 of their many wars with them. Israel got smart & keeps their female soldiers away from the frontlines, the last I heard.
What will happen in the USA, there will be female soldiers who will be "....Captured, Raped, Gang Raped, Mutilated, and Dragged through the streets so the Mob can Piss on'em" as TLP so nicely states.
Then hopefully those in authority & most women will insist that the frontline is male terrority only.
Stormy| 1.24.13 @ 2:01PM
I can see it now. Terrorists kidnap a couple of female soldiers and force them to do a hostage tape. The terrorists will demand all sorts of things, such as the release of prisoners in Gitmo, etc. And, with pressure from horrified Americans, whoever is president will be forced to comply. We will be at the mercy of the terrorists. And, we now have Al Jezzera America to willingly broadcast the hostage tapes to America.
mzk| 4.8.13 @ 11:39AM
You mean 1948, the war of attempted extermination of the Jewish people. They also tortured the men.
I think we're putting them closer to the lines in Israel too, at least those who volunteer. And I am ashamed that we are the only country in the world that has a universal military draft for girls. (Although a LOT take a rleigious exemption.)
Of course, Muslims rape men also.
C. Vernon Crisler | 1.24.13 @ 9:32AM
Well, as I keep saying, people deserve what they vote for. Some people don't seem to understand that they aren't just voting for the man; they're also voting for his policiies, and for the policies of his lackies.
KyMouse| 1.24.13 @ 5:44PM
At the start of my almost 12 years in the Army Reserve, I was in the Women's Army Corps and proudly wore the Pallas Athene insignia (which some of the gals called "Palace of Athene"). We provided support to M*A*S*H units, but mostly through office work (I loved the weapons training, however).
If I remember correctly, back in WWII, people worried about whether fathers of young children should go off to war. Some years back, our nation decided that not only fathers of young children but also mothers of young children should go off to war. Now we are willing to send young women into combat. "Boots on the ground," and all that the phrase implies, will bring its up-close-and-personal dangers to them, and more and more kids will lose their moms.
Our Muslim enemies, who seem to hate unsubmissive women and American women in particular, may have special rage toward American woman in uniform. I wonder if extra pay and promotions will be worth what these young women will face.
By the way, are we going to start requiring 18-year-old girls to register with Selective Service, as their male counterparts must do?
mzk| 4.8.13 @ 11:41AM
Carter wanted to do this, but the Congress stood up and told him no, point blank.
I was in Israel at the time and appreciated the irony; I wish we had the same policy.
MelvinNC| 1.24.13 @ 6:38AM
You think what General Petraus did and allegedly other generals did was a scandal, you ain't seen nothing yet. In fact the DoD is covering it up.
Today's military is a venerable Sodom and Gomorrah. Its a fornication factory that as long as it stays within the base confines, it's s don't ask don't tell policy that effects all ranks.
Later in my career the command discovered that I had a knack for cleaning up messes, especially when women were first coming to Camp Geiger to train. One of my first jobs was tasked in keeping these hormonal crazy boys and girls separated. Needless to say I wasn't very successful in that regard. It wasn't so much that I was trying to keep the trainees separated but the hardest part was keeping the permanent personnel hands off these new influx of fresh meat. Some of these old boys of senior enlisted rank apparently wanted to see if they still had it.
The term of, "Dirty old men, didn't even come close to describe this buck fever.
It all boils down to biology people. You have kids still in their teens, you have twenty somethings discovering what that special purpose between their legs is for. Then the thirty to forty somethings getting a little sweet pie on the side. What the hell does society expect when we put them together in close proximity.
One single female can destroy a FMF line company. Because this one female is going to discover one thing right off. "!!I've got the power!!"
Gary B| 1.24.13 @ 7:11AM
Liberal solutions always, always, always have huge unintended consequences. But, hey! So what? Right? Getting political credit is all that counts to these bastards.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 7:43AM
"Today's military"?
I was in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait 22 years ago. The mixed gender headquarters units were a disaster back then. All kinds of fraternization and prostitution charges, women being shipped home for being pregnant (some married and not deployed with their husbands). Our scouts even caught a male and female Marine having sex while they were supposed to be guarding our perimeter near the border. (Both were court-martialed).
The military kept it all quite and hushed up the stories. No news agency ever reported on what a mess we made of things.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 7:57AM
Exactly.
I was in the Air Force 37 years ago, in New Jersey, and we had Coed Dorms, then.
The Liberals think that they can Cotrol Everything with just a wave of their Halfrican's hand. They can't.
When we're Cut, we still bleed. When we're Hurt, we still cry. When Boys and Girls get together, they wanna "Get Together".
And, when people get Pushed Around enough, they Push Back. They push back hard.
Bob K| 1.24.13 @ 8:30AM
Visit Annapolis on a fine summer's weekend and take in the scenery, including the Midshipwomen walking around the town in their white, form fitting, tailored, uniform slacks showing off their well formed sterns!
If war tactics were decided by democratic vote this would be the first place an enemy would invade the USA!
Just think of the Booty!
Stephie| 1.24.13 @ 11:35AM
You sir, are a misogynistic ass.
Otis, my man!| 1.24.13 @ 2:49PM
Misogynistic? He sounds very appreciative to me.
Perhaps the term you were looking for was "boorish." But that's a term from a bygone era of manliness that I'm sure today's feminists have never heard of.
Bob K| 1.24.13 @ 7:15PM
I gotta be me!
PJ| 1.24.13 @ 8:47AM
Melvin,
I guess you never saw the movie, Alien 2, where the lone butch Marine chick, got along platonically well with her fellow male Marines. And don't forget that Demi Moore movie where she trains & succeeds to become a Navy SEAL.
It seems to me that DOD is taking its marching orders from Hollywood.
ncatty| 1.24.13 @ 9:55AM
You are correct.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 11:44PM
Hicks: Hey Velasquez! You ever been mistaken for a man?
Velasquez: No, Have you?
drudge ette obama| 1.24.13 @ 6:46AM
Melvin, I am going to take your word on this. I see this in everyday life - so it's not unique to the military. Frankly, Petreaus is the poster child for thinking he was in control when in fact it was the woman who had him by the nose.
Apart from all that, women in combat should a measure of last resort - when the enemy is in the neighborhood and at the babies' schools. Do we have the stomach to hear of the physical torture and sexual depravity that will befall these women soldiers? Could they have handled Vietnam's jungles? It is wrong to the core and unnatural in all respects.
MelvinNC| 1.24.13 @ 6:57AM
Drudge ette I have no reason to exaggerate, I grew up with two sisters that could work a man half to death, unfortunately they paid for this hard work later in life with arthritis and joint degeneration form hell.
I forgot and don't want to get sidetracked but while it is in my grape I have to get it out.
I was friends of a doctor on base this woman was a wonderful MD and had a bedside manner perfect for dealing with Marines.
One day in exasperation she flung a medical record accross her desk and side and she said, "Melvin the modern female body is not designed to be a beast of burden or an infantryman. Mind you this is eons before today.
She told me that every one of the young women who came to see her all had the same thing wrong with them. Stress fractures of the hips. That already was causing severe pain in these poor girls hips, and I cannot even begin to imagine what it will be like later in life during child bearing and after menopause.
To put it simply a womans hips are wider than a mans, when equipment and packs are put on these girls the weight is not transfered like a mans straight down to the muscular parts of the legs but rather the weight all sits on the hips causing them to deteriorate.
Uncle Leon didn't tell these girls that did he. Have anyone ever seen a feminist with pain in their hips so bad that they couldn't walk?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 8:15AM
You two sound like a coupla women, yourselves.
I say Ship'em out, Today.
Find the worst place to put'em, and put'em there.
Let the whole World see the Greatness of our Halfrican Prince, as the Mutilated Bodies of our Mothers and Sisters and Wives and Daughters are flown in to Dover AFB for Identification.
Obviously, Detroit and Newark and Cleveland and Gary and Flint and Oakland and Philly and Chicago and California, Illinois, and every other Deep Blue Town, City and State aren't enough PROOF of the Dysfunctional Mental Disorder that is Liberal/Progressive Dogma, and its End Result every time it's tried.
Now we're gonna send GIRLS to the Front Lines in the name of Fairness, and Equality, and Progress.
And, he's just getting started.
I wonder what those 3,000,000 "Principled" White Voters who sat on there hands in Novenber, see when they look in the Mirror, now?
Here's hoping Their Kid is the first one called up.
Maxwell| 1.24.13 @ 8:33AM
TLP, I think both you & Mevlin NC have covered all of the points I could ever make & better too. I just had one thought to add. As I was driving home from welding class last night one of my thoughts was, oh baby, the Muzzies are going to have a field day with this one! Can you see lady in charge of a bunch of Muzzies & not dressed in a head scarf?
Lastly I thought of the sniper on the Russian side during WWII who was female. Don't remember the name but when she thought 'send it' the counter went up by 1.
PJ| 1.24.13 @ 8:55AM
Maxwell,
The woman you are refering to is Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko. She is credited with 309 kills. ------How do I know this? Don't ask.
Maxwell| 1.24.13 @ 9:04AM
PJ, thank you very much! Appreciate it.
PJ| 1.24.13 @ 9:14AM
Your very welcome! (Hubby gave me a WWII Russian sniper scope as a Xmas present a few yrs back.: a very unexpected present, to put it mildly, which led him to do some online research & eventually led him to her name.)
Maxwell| 1.24.13 @ 9:48AM
PJ, you are BOTH very lucky! Good taste in presents & a lady to shoot with, all is truly well!
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:34PM
Yes, and the lady suffered horribly for her skills.
In addition, three points regarding the Russkies: 1) they had 20-30 MILLION casualties in WWII and the Enemy was literally, LITERALLY at the Gates, and 2) their population is shrinking, Russian men have an average life expectancy of 58 years of age (because, among other reasons, their women don't give a damn about them) and 3) Hepatitis C and HIV rates are quite high, although, unlike Egypt, it is not wide-spread among the general population from what I can find. So is the rate of alcoholism and drug abuse. The overall Russian population is aging and declining.
Further,
KyMouse| 1.24.13 @ 5:56PM
Women have risen to the occasion in many countries when the enemy was at the door. There have been many Molly Pitchers.
But, as someone put it, men don't want to follow women into combat. And if romance blossoms in the ranks, will lovers care more about saving their beloved than about saving other members of their units? When pregnancies in combat units occur (no contraceptives are 100% effective), will the expectant mothers need, and get, safe transportation to safer places? Will taxpayers have to pay for aborting their babies?
So much of the wisdom that has developed over millions of years of civilization has been overturned: George Takei (Sulu) was on TV this morning, talking about his "husband"; people are being told that they have no right to defend themselves (with guns); and we want young women to fight in vicious combat.
How can we be so sure that earlier generations we wrong about these issues? Looking at what we're doing, they would probably ask, "Haven't you learned anything from us?"
Albert Constantine Jr.| 1.24.13 @ 7:22AM
Perhaps, Melvin, you are on to the real reason behind this: revenue. Now that Obamacare has a medical device tax, perhaps there is a hope that all of the hip replacement joints and Hoverrounds sold will generate enough in taxes to balance the budget (of course, since they are being sold to the VA, maybe that's not it).
Doctor_X| 1.24.13 @ 7:27AM
Why not lower the standards so women can be in combat and command roles. The private sector has been doing the same thing for years, promoting women who are not ready or not qualified in the name of political correctness.
How bad can it be? Okay so the CIO of G.E. had to step down for “personal reasons” before the board made her leave, and female CEO’s have worked out just great for HP. So what if a few women will literally crash and burn we must keep moving FORWARD!
Indy| 1.24.13 @ 7:32AM
Ah, there are plenty of males failing in the private sector. Can you say you have no issue with any male CEO?
Let's stay on topic, the issue is women in all combat roles.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 8:03AM
Why not? Because it will breed resentment and worse.
I'm supposed to follow a woman on a combat patrol who can't carry her own gear? Does she just sit in a bunker and send me out to die? Or do I haul her crap up the hill as well as my own?
And yes, there are still large engagements taking place on foot.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 8:28AM
"OP. I want you to take Cindy and Kathy and Susan on a Reconnoiter Mission into Sector 6, up along that Ridge. Belay that order. I've just been informed that two of the girls have just gotten their period, and the other one is "late" and probably Pregnant."
"Take privates Jones, and Riley, and that really cute private from G Squad. You know the one? The one with the dimples?"
"Now, run along and reconnoiter. But, before you do, would you be a dear, and hand me my Box of Pads and Tampons? Can't be too careful, ya know. You know us girls. We all get our 'Friend over' at the same time."
"Dismissed."
PJ| 1.24.13 @ 9:07AM
What could happen with your 2 pregnant soldiers, esp during wartime, is receiving orders from their commanders to have abortions(the pill kind if it's early enough) to keep them on the frontlines.
Any president who views pregnancy as an inconvenience & who's all for partial birth abortion, would have no problem issuing orders for forced abortions on pregnant volunteer military personnel.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 9:40AM
What happens know is they are put on the next flight home. Somebody else has to do her work for the rest of her deployment while she collects her pay at Fort Know or wherever.
squalis| 1.24.13 @ 10:07AM
Didn't you guys see "Courage Under Fire"? What's the beef?
Cobalt| 1.24.13 @ 8:58AM
And what will happen when you are wounded, and a women isn't physically strong enough to move you out of the line of fire?
In combat, how many deaths will result from women being physically inferior to men, strictly from a standpoint of physical strength?
CrackerHound| 1.24.13 @ 10:44AM
Not to worry OP4...we just require less gear when on patrol or fighting behind enemy lines. Instead of M2 50- cals or M60's we can make lighter weapons. It's not fair to have weapons only men can carry along with the weight of the rest of gear.
...and I guess once a month when their blood volume is lower making them weaker...we have "special gear" they can carry for 3-days to a week.
This is insane.
I know of NO WOMAN that can carry a 180 lb soldier or marine over her shoulders to saftey for a couple of miles at least. I guess the "no man left behind" moto will have to be scrapped.
Stephie| 1.24.13 @ 11:42AM
I remember my fighter pilot father's outrage when that gal crashed on the deck of the carrier in CA. She had no business flying that jet and was sacrificed for political correctness.
When they show the women troops kissing their crying children goodby it makes me wonder what kind of nation we have become. It just ain't normal.
Indy| 1.24.13 @ 7:29AM
The House GOP has to stop this, to quote a lefty "are you serious" if the GOP attempts to stop this what will we hear from now to 2014 - the "War on Women"
Physical requirements cannot be lowered, same number of pushups, pullups, situps, running times, etc. Lives are at stake, wars are now primarily fought in urban settings, there is no defined front line. We cannot allow the lowering of standards.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 7:48AM
It's all been tried before with horrible results.
http://www.heretical.com/miscella/frcombat.html
Ten years in between the Marines and the Army and I never met an enlisted woman who had any interest in serving in the Infantry. Here is a Woman Marine writing about what a dumb idea it is:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gaz.....ated-equal
I think sometimes the feminists and left are just worried that there are men somewhere not being properly supervised.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 8:33AM
When I was in the Air Force, in the 70's, a lot of the Girls would make sure that they got Pregnant before Winter came. That way they wouldn't have to be on Flightline in the Bitter Cold.
It's as old as The Garden of Evil.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 9:43AM
Had a Staff Sergeant who got pregnant the night after Saddam invaded Kuwait. She was starting to show when she waved us goodbye a few months later.
JP| 1.24.13 @ 11:39AM
And then there was the "Tuna Boat". I forget the name of the ship. But, during the Gulf War, the USN Navy thought it was high time to have a coed ship commanded by a female skipper. It was strictly a support/supply ship operating in the Persian Gult. Nearly half (40%) of the women came up pregnant before their cruise was complete. It was so bad that the Navy had to pull petty officers from other ships to fill the ranks.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 11:52AM
Hell JP, I remeber taking some of my Marines on the USNS Comfort. On the way back off we noticed a case of condoms under the watchstanders podium. And I am not talkin a single carton, closer to 500. I asked the watch why they were there. It was for the shipboard personnel to take for shore leave. I mentioned the size of the carton and the fact it was a mixed crew and he just smiled and said "No comment".
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 11:53AM
The Eisenhower became the first combat ship with women on board. It was renamed the Love Boat when 15 women had to be reassigned due to pregnancy.
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 1:34PM
When I was in Viet Nam, the only women in uniform I ever saw were some nurses. I remember one (fondly) in particular. She wasn't a knock-out but (especially over there) not too shabby. She went home a very wealthy women. With this new regulation, an enterprising young women who's is even a little bit easy on the eyes will look at forward deployment as a profit center. No matter what the lefties say, that's the way it is. Always was. Always will be. Not all the young women, mind you, but some of them. There will be some of a different sexual proclivity, after all.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 1:43PM
Exactly. Knew a Navy officer that was kicked out for just the same. She pulled out a bankroll big enough to choke a horse and told the board she will do just fine.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 3:58PM
I remember having "Not too shabby" sex.
The sex was O.K.
It was all of the time I spent avoiding her after that, that was a pain in the @ss.
CrackerHound| 1.24.13 @ 10:48AM
I think it's all just a ploy to get Republicans to go on record again against women. The left is sticking with it's game plan of destroying the Republican Party and the media is all in.
Indy| 1.24.13 @ 7:52AM
Pressure will be on the trainers to do the job of weeding out those who cannot meet the standards, both mental and physical, without appearing to be bias against women. The already have to weed out the men who cannot meet the standards but you know what's coming when some women fail tests and are not promoted...
Virtue| 1.24.13 @ 7:56AM
Sheer madness. Reminded of C.S. Lewis description of "men without chests." Appears as if were devoted to creating "men without balls."
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:04PM
This is different.
This is Men without Balls, sending Girls to do a Man's Job.
But then, that's because THEY have never done A MAN'S JOB, in their pathetic lives.
JimH| 1.24.13 @ 7:57AM
Damn few, if any of the wimmen agitating for females to be allowed in combat will be volunteering. The standard combat load as it is now is more than it ought to be, even for a strong man. Infantry and many support jobs demand considerable core and upper body strength. I have read that women might make better pilots as their bodies seem to handle high-Gs better than men. While there have been exceptions, I seem to recall some African kingdom having units of unmarried women as part of their army and women have been part of guerrilla forces, having women in frontline combat, particularly as part of mixed units goes against millions of years of evolution and experience. I suspect this change is mostly to allow female officers to get the necessary ticket punches to get to higher ranks. If they insist on going ahead with this idiocy, they ought not reduce the physical requirements ( as was done to allow female firefighters), and while they won’t do this, it would be best if these woman warriors where part of all female units.
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 8:07AM
Israel has put all their Infantry woman into one unit of glorified border guards. It shut up the feminists and the rot is limited to one battalion.
JP| 1.24.13 @ 11:35AM
You obviously never served in combat. There are probably fewer than .05% of the female population that could survive simple combat training. There is no glory as a grunt. Hump 40 miles under 90 deg temps carry at least 80lbs of gear (more if you're in heavy weapons) on half water rations. In Fallujah, the Marines fought in 115 deg temps with at least 100lbs of gear and were expected to execute their op-plans without error- one house at a time, one gun pit at a time. No sleep, constant threat of violent death, dehydration, crotch rot, blisters from hell, and senior NCOs who have no tolerance for weakness.
Keep your fantasies of African princess warriors, and other Hollywood BS to yourself. This isn't Reality TV, or the Iron Man competition.You haven't a clue what war is actually like, or you wouldn't have posted such crap.
JimH| 1.24.13 @ 1:55PM
What part of I'm against women in combat units, in part for some of the reasons you cite did you fail to understand? The examples referred to were to show how unusual it is. OP4 understood, so it was clear to at least some readers.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:01PM
Tell him you're sorry, JP.
Joellen| 1.24.13 @ 8:05AM
It is simply part of their plan, decimate the military, and at this juncture they are succeeding.
Pecos Pete| 1.24.13 @ 8:14AM
Population explosion!
Divorce explosion!
Morale explosion!
Defeat explosion!
Louis Jenkins| 1.24.13 @ 8:32AM
Go ahead Panetta, send the ladies in. When the 337th PMS brigade hits the Moslems it will be all over. Not really, but it sounds good.
Russel| 1.24.13 @ 9:40AM
That one just came to mind too , Louis . Rush and his PMS brigade or whatever . Any bets he'll revisit that one soon . The Amazons too perhaps .
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:06PM
I nominate Hillary, for Battalion Commander.
Do I hear a Second?
Jim Adcox| 1.24.13 @ 9:02AM
Leon Panetta is what Milhouse from the Simpson would look like as an adult. Also, Milhouse has more integrity; he knows when he is outmatched by life.
Jim Adcox| 1.24.13 @ 9:03AM
"Simpsons", not Simpson, in my previous post.
Albertus Magnus| 1.24.13 @ 9:07AM
Politics trumps everything. Especially human life. This is the lesson of History. Politicians will say and do anything to get votes, even put women in combat. Politicians do not care about combat readiness, or any moral reservation the People may have about putting women in combat. Politicians do not care that women will consequently die in combat. Just as politicians do not care that people die at the hands of violent criminals, and even exploit deaths for political advantage, so too politicians do not care about combat deaths and will exploit their deaths for politics. All politicians care about is themselves and how many votes they can get. As soon as one may think that politicians could not get any lower in their egotistical quests for votes, voila! they go even lower. There is no bottom when it comes to how low a politician will go to get votes and celebrate his own ego. Politics trumps everything. Leon Panetta is dirt.
c. j. acworth| 1.24.13 @ 9:14AM
Does anyone here know how much a hand grenade weighs? How far can the average male toss one? Can the average girl throw one outside it's blast radius?
OP4| 1.24.13 @ 9:44AM
From memory - they are smaller than a baseball but about twice as heavy.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 10:49AM
The M67 I think weighs roughly 14 ounces.
Hardcard| 1.24.13 @ 9:20AM
It's the transformation stupid.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:07PM
WINNER!
Anthony| 1.24.13 @ 9:24AM
Panetta, the professional bottom feeder and Washington hanger on, has done one last act of perfidity before he retreats under his rock for good.
Remember the crap Bush took in the invasion of Iraq, when several women support drivers were taken prisoner, when they went down the wrong street?
These leftist Ds are true pieces of crap. They are dismantling our culture piece by piece.
These bastards need to go.
Cat Shot| 1.24.13 @ 9:28AM
Sending women into combat is Wrong. Anyone here remember Right and Wrong?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:08PM
Yeah.
You're Right. It's Wrong.
sickofit5| 1.24.13 @ 9:37AM
Wellll, we all had to see this cumming. What's been going on in the military is Fabianism at it's best. A mirror image of what has been going on in our country in general with the high water mark being the gay pride parade in the pentagon this past year. It will be fun to watch when or if the selective service system (draft) in the future. Glad I don't have a daughter.
squalis| 1.24.13 @ 10:01AM
We are going right to women in combat, skipping a don't ask, don't tell intermediate policy?
CrackerHound| 1.24.13 @ 10:08AM
Babbin: "Panetta’s decision has to be stopped by House Republicans. They can do it if they bar the use of any authorized or appropriated funds for DoD to implement the Panetta policy"
__________________________________
LOL..Hahaha....Jed, if you're counting on Republicans to stand up for what's right AGAINST the prevailing politically correct winds and to once again step in to the lions den with the trap that they have laid for Republicans (showing how they hate women,gays, minorities, transgendered poodles, etc.) you are dreaming.
The division of society by class, gender, race, income and political affiliation continues. It's only a matter of time until total control is complete. The will of Republicans is broken. Many conservatives (as demonstrated in the last election when they didn't show up to vote) have also given up. Let the Marxists have their way.
Get ready to give up your guns.
rjh| 1.24.13 @ 10:21AM
Great article and totally correct on all counts. This is nothing more than another attempt to weaken or destroy our military capability. It is another form of affirmative action...and that has worked out well for us so far, right? In a rational country, it would be seen for what it is: treason.
Von Mises Jr| 1.24.13 @ 10:58AM
I think we could solve a big problem by tying long-term unemployment, welfare and EBT card recipients to sign up for the military. They could sign up as Reservist.
If Obama needs them in Sudan, Pok-E-Stan, Mali or Syria, they will be shipped off to serve the nation that is feeding their sorry asses.
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:10PM
We could call it: The Dream Act.
Mike W| 1.24.13 @ 11:06AM
The House Republicans won't stop this. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, a bunch of beta boys, made this recommendation.
The late General David Hackworth was certainly right about the modern military. He called the top dogs "perfumed princes" and was contemptuous of them. This recommendation shows that they care little about the military and only of their careers.
Once again, I feel sorry for the men who invested their lives and well being into being career military men who believe in the warrior culture. It is now a farce.
rjh| 1.24.13 @ 11:56AM
Having been in the military, I can tell you that the "warrior culture" part of the military is weeded out shortly after attaining the rank of 0-6, if not sooner. With very few exceptions (and there are some) anyone who progresses above that grade is merely a politician in a uniform.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 12:38PM
Or an outcast and doomed to rise no higher regardless of their ability.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 6:56PM
I can tell you that the "warrior culture" part of the military is weeded out shortly after attaining the rank of 0-6,
Not in all cases.
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 7:44PM
Mike, I agree. I have known many O6's and higher who were truly, truly bad-ass. I'm not going to mention names but a certain SF 3 Star who recently retired was as tough as they get. Anybody out there really think Schwarzkopf was not a warrior?
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 7:49PM
You and I need to get together for 1 or 9 beers or so. As soon as Uncle Sam finishes up with me. I'll be spending more time at home. I live right down the street from you (Dallas).
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 8:55PM
Mike, anytime. Might want to throw a Jaeger or two in there, as well.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 9:52PM
Hua!
rjh| 1.26.13 @ 11:12AM
Did you miss the part that said "with very few exceptions"?
KennesawJack| 1.26.13 @ 7:17PM
I be lieve there are a great many more than just a "very few" who still possess the warrior ethos.
Mike W| 1.24.13 @ 11:06AM
The House Republicans won't stop this. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, a bunch of beta boys, made this recommendation.
The late General David Hackworth was certainly right about the modern military. He called the top dogs "perfumed princes" and was contemptuous of them. This recommendation shows that they care little about the military and only of their careers.
Once again, I feel sorry for the men who invested their lives and well being into being career military men who believe in the warrior culture. It is now a farce.
Mike W| 1.24.13 @ 11:06AM
The House Republicans won't stop this. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, a bunch of beta boys, made this recommendation.
The late General David Hackworth was certainly right about the modern military. He called the top dogs "perfumed princes" and was contemptuous of them. This recommendation shows that they care little about the military and only of their careers.
Once again, I feel sorry for the men who invested their lives and well being into being career military men who believe in the warrior culture. It is now a farce.
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:39PM
Mike, I seem to recall a colonel telling me that promotion to Flag rank required a Lobotomy. Certainly our current crop have become like "Poor Mr. Luebner, born without a spine."
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 8:23PM
Actually...that's to get promoted to O6. I'm still recovering from mine...but the scotch helps.
Mike W| 1.24.13 @ 11:08AM
I sincerely apologize for the multiple posts.
JP| 1.24.13 @ 11:25AM
The tried, by God they did. Last year the Army opened up Ranger training to women in the hopes of finding a few amazons. They took female volunteers and 3 actually females actually did show up. The last one dropped out after the 2nd or 3rd day. Then nothing. And Ranger training is about as intense as Marine combate training (minus the airborne componen for the Marines).
So here's out this will end: one day an Amry Bridage Combat Team will be deployed somewhere dangerous. It will be commanded by a female, who will add plenty of other "promotable" female officers to her staff and company ranks. The rank file enlisted will be a combination of homosexuals, amazons, and Roadies (Retired on Active Duty NCOs). This BCT will meet the enemy in combat and get anihilated in combat in much the same way that 2 regiments of the 106th were wiped out during the Battle of the Bulge. The female brigade commander, however will survive, receive the CMH and get fast tracked to be the Army's next Chief of Staff.
RABart| 1.24.13 @ 11:50AM
Maybe this isn't such a bad idea afterall. I believe we should send over a "trial" platoon at first just to see how it works out. Lead by example - that's what I say. In light of that, the platoon will consists of Moochelle, Feinstein, Boxer, Hillary, DW Schultz, and of course the platoon leader has to be Jane Fonda. She does have prior experience in anti-aircraft guns. A natural.
obadiah| 1.24.13 @ 11:58AM
Looks like actual facts are coming up. Actual facts will validate some opinions and invalidate other opinions.
Indy| 1.24.13 @ 12:00PM
Excellent piece today in the WSJ from boots on the ground
http://tinyurl.com/am4dmkg
"Ryan Smith: The Reality That Awaits Women in Combat
A Pentagon push to mix the sexes ignores how awful cheek-by-jowl life is on the battlefield."
Tom Kyba| 1.24.13 @ 12:01PM
Another part of this Jed, revolves around the two paragraphs on page 2. "The club's membership has been 100% men" and "force them to break with their ancient traditions, customs and beliefs". This is grist for the mill for liberals, and champagne feminists especially. The opportunity to spit on such male traditions is their driving force. The terrible results of such a policy means nothing to them since the first rule of liberalism is to blame others for their failures, as evidenced by Shrillary's response to one tough question at the so-called hearing. So much easier than tackling things like the treatment of women in Muslim societies et al.
Slacker| 1.24.13 @ 12:03PM
Snicker in delight boys. The gov. just annihilated chivalry. Feminism is a gift that keeps on giving.
Who Knows?| 1.24.13 @ 12:07PM
What’s the big deal? What difference does it make?
The future wars look to me like they will be radically different from the one’s today’s generals are preparing for, so who cares about letting female humans join the infantry? Fighting the last war, and a woman’s a woman, and a man’s a man, for all that.
The key word is—future.
I hope you saw the PBS NOVA show last night on drones.
We ain’t seen nothing yet. As someone put it, it’s like when the Wright brothers first flew, and biplanes were cutting edge---wrt drones, that’s where we are.
Yes, the grunts will always be the tip of the spear, but who can fail to notice how a rich America is growing robotic “balls”, in gangbuster fashion? My guess is that the decision makers will be unable to miss the simplest human truth---staying alive is good!
That is, for all the “glory” heretofore gained by warriors who happily put themselves in harms way, maybe even with the egoic desire to either die, be wounded, and/or survive---picture Churchill’s whole life, predicated on his time as a young fighter, with bullets whizzing by him, that proved his worthiness---it’s better to avoid body bags, and Gold Stars, and glory in the long and productive life of each of us—if it’s possible.
Imagine a world with the USA able to wipe out enemies, with NO CASUALTIES.
Don’t mess with America!
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 12:21PM
When all is said and done, the women will excel in every combat ready metric used to measure them. The reason? The metrics will be reduced to their ability to handle them. Lighter packs, less weaponry carried, less ammo to reduce weight, fewer grenades, less distance required for forced marches, etc., etc. , etc. We'll "dumb down" our combat readiness in the same way we "dumbed down" education. The gals will end up being scored higher than the men. You can bet on it.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 12:49PM
KJ,
You just summed up my greatest fear. Especially since both my boys want to join the military.
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 1:25PM
Sailor, my oldest boy is a Special Forces light bird. I haven't spoken with him about this yet but I KNOW what he'll have to say. Encourage your boys. At the end of the day, no matter what the Kumbaya crowd does, your boys will be good soldiers simply because they're your sons . No doubt in my mind your boys are being raised right. The Country will need them.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 1:46PM
Thanks, they both have good heads on their shoulders. Even though the youngest wants to joing the Air Force (just kidding). My oldest is looking at Army. Apparently neither thought to follow the old man's footsteps and go Navy. Then again I spent all my time with the Marines so what do I know. I have family members in everything but the Coast Guard and I am proud of every one of them.
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 1:56PM
I as an Air Force guy. Spent EVERY day in 'Nam with the Army. Not what I signed up for but, wouldn't change a thing. It DID change the way some of the grunts thought about us "zoomies".
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:43PM
DS & KJ: thank you,thank you, thank you. For the men you are, and the kids you raised.
ChinookJockey| 1.24.13 @ 2:09PM
Have any of my military brothers in here ever witnessed a female service member having problems getting promoted?
KennesawJack| 1.24.13 @ 2:22PM
No. And neither has anyone else.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 2:29PM
Only due to incompetence or the fact she tried to wiggle out of every little field op that came along.
As for the ones that pull their weight and then some? Nope, not a one and I was proud to serve with them.
jarhead sapper-retired| 1.24.13 @ 2:52PM
Never. I do remember my retirement briefing-a round woman Marine Colonel telling a roomful of male LtCols and Majors that we had no potential for further service.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 7:54PM
Nope...if anything...there were a couple year groups of BG's that had significantly more females than the overall Army/OfficerCorps percentage. This is gonna get exacerbated now. When Congress looks at the military, it's all about the numbers when it comes to "victim" compliance. Having said that, I have served alongside some stellar females...officers and enlisted....and would do so again.
Pecos Pete| 1.25.13 @ 7:12AM
One of my COs for 2 years was a Commander who was a woman. Damn she was good! And this was back in 1960/61.
John II| 1.24.13 @ 2:45PM
So far I've noticed only one comment that touches lightly on what I'm really worried about.
One of the key policy desires of the statist Left is to bring back the military draft. The Professor was only 12 years old when the draft ended, but his older acolytes such as the bottom-feeder Panetta and the pygmy Reid and the manic Biden all long for the days when America's military effectiveness was almost destroyed by the practice of stuffing the Army with unwilling conscripts and thus packing the other services with uninterested recruits seeking to avoid the Army. Drafted out of graduate school in 1969, and I saw all this creepiness up close.
The constant "anti-war" street protests and disorder of those years ended suddenly in 1973, when the draft ended, two full years before the final American abandonment of Vietnam. So the Left got what it wanted, thanks to the military draft--and the intermittent proposals for reinstating the draft all come from the Left.
The long-term goal of the Left in pushing for women in combat is to make certain that, when the draft finally is reinstated, women will be subject to the draft--a move that will obliterate American morale generally as well as American military effectiveness.
Panetta himself, of course, is merely an enabling stooge of a degenerate era. But he is serving ends that are objectively treasonous.
snipelee25| 1.24.13 @ 3:03PM
Simply look at our current police and fire departments to see what happens when standards are lowered for women.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 7:57PM
That's why in most mid to large EMS agencies, when an ambulance is dispatched, a fire truck goes with it...for the extra manpower to pick up the gurney if necessary.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 3:36PM
Back 20+ years when "women in combat" was a raging topic among the Ferni-Nazis I pointed
out the obvious to no avail. No amount of wishful thinking is going to overcome the genetic
differences between men and women in regard to upper and lower body strengths. The deficit
woman have in this area makes the bulk of women unfit for the same infantry tasks as the
average man. The fantasy some have with this is only affordable in a peace time military that
has the luxury of being very selective with it recruitments. In a real war the cost of finding
about 3% of women that can meet the same standards as the average man will be fatal to our
needs. What percentage of men that meet average standards in infantry units and try out for
"special forces" make it?
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 3:38PM
In WWII, about 9% of our population served in the Armed forces at one time. Most of those
positions were non-combat. 10% is a threshold that most societies cannot go beyond with able
bodied men fit for military service. The Germans went beyond that level and were filling their
ranks with Hitler Youth and teenagers in general at the end. With a military today sized to
about half a percent of our population the "need" to go to extremes (and cost) to find women
suitable for infantry combat is simply not justified. The shear cost of recruitment differences
between men and women will detract from the overall mission of the military. The likely end
result will end up looking like our feminized police and fireman services. Standards will be
lowered, embarrassments will be covered up or placed in functions where they do the least
harm to the mission and the men will have to pull extra duty to fill in the gaps left by the ersatz
warrioriets’ inability to pull their own weight let alone being able to do what having 50% more
upper body strength and 20% more lower body strength per pound of body weight provides.
What's the saying, you can dress them up but at the end of the day its being able to carry the
load the average man can, move like that average man can with that load and lift a wounded
average man up and moving away from harm's way that counts.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 3:39PM
Just as happened with
Police and Fireman, the standards will fall or be separate and not equal and people will die
because of this. The Israelis tried this under war time conditions and suffered for it.
As Babbin correctly points out this is all about getting the required merit badges for
promotions not actually serving in combat. The thrust of this will be directed towards the
"officer" ranks not the enlisted. Why? Because that is where the power over men is at. If an
objective tests were performed between a men's infantry combat unit and a women's the results
would be eye opening but don't hold your breath on that. The obvious differences between men
and women physical performances in a civilian society don't hold water in the political correct
fantasyland of the Femi-Nazis mindset. Ask yourself why there is no female baseball, football,
basketball, rugby, soccer leagues playing against men? Because they will lose ... Now put the
average combat load on the tiny percentage of women who can meet the average male standards
and see how that works against our enemy’s men… In every physical fitness test women and men are required to meet in the military with women having lower standards women fail at the lower standards several times the men’s rate. When women are actually asked to meet the same standards the bulk of them will fail it making the whole exercise about politics not about meeting what the military needs.
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:46PM
Again, one should avoid things that REDUCE women's value down to that of a man.
King, if you have never served in combat, you might learn something. I have treated many combat soldiers, sailors, zoomis, and Marines myself.
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 3:42PM
The thing you Neanderthals are missing is a women justs has to be able to do the job, she is not competing against men in the Olympics. If she is a sniper and needs to hit a target 1000 meters away, than I'd imagine the enemy couldn't care less that they were killed by a women or not, nor should you. Not all men are Rambo either.
C. Vernon Crisler | 1.24.13 @ 4:08PM
I don't think you understand how difficult it is to be a sniper.
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:15PM
Is women's vision or fine motor skills worse then a man?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:19PM
Can they drag a 200lb. wounded man to safety?
Can she?
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:49PM
can you?
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 8:00PM
I can...and have...while wearing full body armor, brain bucket, basic load of ammo, plus my weapon....with the same on the casualty. Have you?
TLP| 1.24.13 @ 4:18PM
He doesn't understand ANYTHING.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 4:23PM
Of they load they have to carry, nor the speed that they at times need to move, or basically reality in general.
See the closest King comes to military reality is playing "Black Ops" in his mom's basement.
Then again he probably gets his ass whipped by women all the time so he doesn't see the problem. Believing women have the same physical standards is his only defensive mechanism to avoid the reality that he is a puss.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 4:45PM
Hey King, just so you don't make a bigger ass of yourself. A Marine has to be able to score a 1st class Physical fitness test and a second class swimmer test to even get into sniper school
If memory serves
First class PFT for a young stud would be
3 mile run in 18 min
20 pulls (not times)
100 crunches
Swim quals are much more fun.
Develop skill level to be able to assist a wounded Marine to safety as in a river crossing. Must have completed CWS3.
- Uniform will be full combat gear and contents of pack will be waterproofed.
- With full combat gear minus pack, swim 50 meters in deep water, with weapon slung across back (muzzle down).
- Wearing full combat gear, perform 25 meter collar-tow on passive "victim" similarly dressed, simultaneously towing two packs and two weapons (secured to packs). Packs my be used for floatation devices for "victim".
Now if you know any women that can do that to even qualify to get in the class let me know. Then we can take bets on them finishing the class. Dropout/failure rate is roughly 50%
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:53PM
What does that have to do with the job?
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 4:56PM
OK retard. I tried to save you from embarasement. Those are the requirements to even get into the school to be trained for the job.
Here is a clue, those requirements are set up as the minimum standard deemed neccessary to do that job. If they can't do this, they aint getting the job.
Not to mention it is considered a special force, which isn't being opend to them anyway. Have you even come closer to the military than a video game? Maybe a movie even? You're so clueless you don't even know how lost you are.
Occam's Tool| 1.24.13 @ 4:47PM
King: Combat makes the Olympics look like puss camp, fool. Evaluate a few combat men medically sometime.
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:51PM
Yeah, that's to get in then they get fat, you ever see even the vaunted Seal Team 6, half the guys are WAY over 40
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 4:58PM
You mean the actors who played the seals? Please do tell how and when you saw actual members currently serving.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 1.24.13 @ 4:26PM
In societies where a given war is existential, mobilizing every warm body to fight for survival is sometimes the best, if not only choice. To the extent that Operation Barbarossa had unleashed a Nazi killing machine on a population already thinned out by the Stalin killing machine, the choices for the Soviets and Red Army in the Second World War were rather limited, particularly in light of how their tactics and strategies were not crafted to limit their own casualties.
In societies that have the capacity to plan well and budget ahead, by protecting women from combat you do not only indulge your chivalrous notions, or take note of the harsh demanding physical requirements of the combat arms, but you also protect those people who are essential in replacing your population losses, i.e. young women at the peak of the child bearing years. As such, the prohibition against women serving in combat has been much more utilitarian than chauvinistic.
It does not take nearly as many men to create a post war baby boom replacement of those killed as it does women with fully-functioning lady parts.
Regarding those (usually mythical) cultures who did not recognize this and sent their finest young women to war as a choice of first resort, I would ask, have you met anyone from Amazonia lately?
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:49PM
I'd rather have two good female soldiers watching my back then one man, and if you wouldn't then your an idiot who can't count.
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 4:59PM
No, I am the guy alive why you are dead with your foxhole fantasies. You really try hard to be a moron don't you.
Congratulations, you're a overachiever.
cicero| 1.24.13 @ 4:52PM
We are not a martial society. We are more Athens than Sparta. We are more Carthage than Rome. However, when called upn, we fight with a ferocity that is a wonder to behold. We try to limit our fights to causes worth fighting for, and stop fighting when the necessity passes. We do not need, nor do the sane among us want, our women in combat. To speak the obvious, this latest directive is insane.
The Progressive Left has always hated America and all it stands for. It robs them of the ability to tell everyone else how to live. It robs them of their wish for an elitist society, with them as the elites - of course. In order to destrroy America they needed to dumb down the population, robbing it of its history; bankrupt the country in order to weaken it; and destroy its military. The idiots of this society have been told that, and then have elected - twice - the cabal who has promised to do its best to accomplish the destruction.
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 4:56PM
You fools are talking like for every female to join the front line ranks, a man has to go home. More of ANYTHING is good, repeat after me, IT'S NOT A ZERO SUM GAME!
Drunken Sailor| 1.24.13 @ 5:01PM
Once again your mental inabilities shine. Yes, it is a zero sum game. Their are force restrictions and max force sizes in our military. Troop strenght levels are set. For a woman to be in that role, a guy has to be left out.
nikalseyn| 1.24.13 @ 5:14PM
Thank you. My number one son sent me an email from FOB Pasab. To paraphrase: boy, am I glad I only have 6 more years to go until I can get the hell out of this ......army.
I don't think I would hold out too much hope for the Republicans. John Boehner will have a good cry over it and then do nothing.
Skippy| 1.25.13 @ 6:15PM
My-kid-the-soldier was just at Pasab for a while last year.
SHE led 20 ugly grunts for 6 months running security in Panj'wai.(AKA The Heart Of Darkness)
Her BSM and the undying loyalty of her "boys" to their SFC says all I need to hear about women in uniform.
Marc Jeric| 1.24.13 @ 5:39PM
What's to wonder about? After all, Paneta was a ranking member of the Institute for Policy Studies, a think tank under KGB direction, working for 30 years on the US unilateral disarmament.
Kingofthenet| 1.24.13 @ 7:31PM
I get the problem, see they are ALSO letting in gays, so you NeoCons can avoid the Ladies 'with a Wide Stance', me on the otherhand LIKE hanging with them.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 1.24.13 @ 8:00PM
Your majesty is being even more of an insufferable jackass today. Since your personal military experience appears to be the equivalent of the war counsel/ lover of his son defenestrated by Longshanks as depicted in the film Braveheart (making him briefly England’s first airborne trooper), please allow me to (futilely) make the following point: Warriors are supposed to fight the enemy, not have sex with one another. The more they engage in the latter, the less they are prepared for the former.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 11:57PM
Big Al,
defenestrated by Longshanks
Showoff...You been readin' books agin ain't ya?
Albert Constantine Jr.| 1.25.13 @ 1:23PM
The first time I saw the word was in Mills' book "The Underground Empire" about 25 years ago, and greatly looked forward to an occasion I could use it.
The Airborne reference was in your honor, sir, since you seemed to enjoy the last time I used it (and by the way, I see you've got the bold working for you).
Skippy| 1.25.13 @ 6:19PM
"The Defenestration of Ermintrude Inch"
Arthur C. Clarke 1953
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 9:24PM
Kingfish,
You’ve amply demonstrated you know nothing about combat. Being a sniper is about 10% pulling off that long range shot which a 12 year old girl can be trained to do and 90% humping or crawling over the worst terrain possible to get into a position to possibly make that shot and then evading captured or being killed by forces several times your own. Outside of what I think is your Hollywood understanding of real combat I would suspect you have zero understanding of it beyond what you’ve seen in video games. Try a little math game here.
The average female is almost a foot shorter than that average man, weights in their prime years (20s) 40-50 lbs less, and has 50% of the upper body strength where the bulk of their combat load is located and only about 80% of the lower body strength per pound. Your average woman has a considerably shorter stride and has to work even harder to keep up with the average height man and going to ground and getting up quickly is a life and death exercise in combat that requires upper body strength specifically. Nothing is going to change the basic genetic differences here.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 9:26PM
Now add the standard combat load of a helmet, class 111A body armor with class 1V plates, seven loaded 30 round mags for the 10+ lb lightweight carbine M4 with all the do dads attached, radio, two grenades, knife of some sort and a 3 liter hydration bladder which weighs in at 7 lbs and some level of food and first aid. The bear minimum load for the Army units with all their “kit” will approach 40 lbs or more to start. The SF guys will hit 60 lbs. All of this weight is located above the waist where women have the least amount of strength. Your best trained 98 lb Olympian gymnast will have to carry more than half her weight into combat for routine infantry work whereas the average man will only be carrying about 25% and is naturally able to handle the upper body weight better. You can eliminate the bulk of the women who can match the average man simply based on their height and weight in their 20s. Every day all across this nation young women can be seen pulling their purse and laptop behind them in a wheeled travel bags because they can’t lift just that much weight for long periods of time.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 9:27PM
As someone who backpacks carrying 30-50 lb loads over rough terrain at 60 years old I routinely encounter women who can’t carry the required load for such trips and either stay home or try to off load part of their load to a “guy”. Those that make the effort with lighter loads routinely slow the group down because they have to work harder to deliver the same “miles” for a given time. For every woman that can match the average man in such activities there are better than 9 who simply can’t. Backpacking is not combat but it requires some of the same strengths at a much less tempo. The standard weight standard of men for backpacking is 35% of body weight; 25% for women. This is based on scientific studies not some pie in the sky figure.
During the train up and deployment for Desert Storm in 1990 there was a considerable spike in unavailability among women in all the services but specifically the Marines which had the highest % of woman in uniform at 11%. Do I have spell it out to you what their disability was and who had to take their place in the desert? It takes years to become combat proficient thus every voluntary disability robs the service of value of its efforts and considerable money spent on recruitment and training.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 9:27PM
As for doing the “job”, well the bulk of doing the job in infantry combat is being part of a team of people and that means pulling your own weight both literally and figuratively. Not being available for combat due to voluntary disabilities is a dereliction of duty. I could have been Court Marshaled in the Navy for being sun burned and not being able to perform my “duties” which includes a lot more than you have any understanding of. Infantry combat is not a video game where the virtual soldiers are all like some super hero that never sleeps, get tired or can’t keep up with the rest of the group because they don’t have the goods. The Goods involve more than just physical strength too which is why women have several times the attrition rate of men doing just the lessor physical screening/training tasks required for each MOS. If your mindset isn’t in it the rest will follow and everywhere women have tried to make the grade in bulk of those that try fail because they quit. When the military conducts real world combat operations vs. the dog and phony shows so often shown on the Boob Tube real soldiers die and don’t come back with the next start of the game. Jessica Lynch was made out to be a “hero” by people of your mindset before the truth was finally released about what actually went on with the 407L. Extraordinary measures by many men were undertaken to rescue one woman.
Thom| 1.24.13 @ 9:28PM
Real men have been doing this task for thousands of years and among the whole population of men there will always be a percentage who can’t measure up. The standards are set by those that can to weed these men out without spending undo time and money that we won’t have in a real war. Trying to accommodate a second class standard for political reasons and wasting valuable training money on a group of people who have a small chance of meeting the entry standards does both a disservice to those granted admission at a lower standard and those they will have to serve with and depend on. Infantry combat is not about how you play the game or number of merit badges you get for promotions up the ranks; it is about winning and living or losing and dying. Your ignorance is blazing.
mike 3/505| 1.24.13 @ 10:01PM
Thom,
As one of those grunts who have been humping a rucksack (mind out of the gutter Tim!) for nigh on 36 years in the Infantry, Thanks! Thanks for a well written, cogent rebuttal to all the political correctness being spewed about.
Regards,
Mike
Pecos Pete| 1.25.13 @ 7:01AM
Thom: Well done!
delahaya| 1.25.13 @ 12:05AM
We just need to split the country in two and be done with it. Liberals are literally another species of human beings now. They cannot "co-exist", they can only ruin and run over other people. We have a society right now in which the tail wags in the dog in almost every situation. Enough!