The American Spectator

Motown Mike| 10.21.09 @ 7:58AM

This is a classic case of rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. I believe in kindness to the alien in the land. That’s one reason I’m learning Spanish – because I’ve been in situations where people have needed assistance and the language barrier has complicated my efforts to help them. And, for the cause of ministry, I have had illegal aliens in my home. These things, to me, are rendering unto God. Yet, there is the Caesar issue. No nation can survive without controlling its borders. To my knowledge, we are the only country in the world that doesn’t. I oppose amnesty for the millions of people illegally in this country. We did that during the Reagan administration when there were far fewer illegal immigrants here. What happened? Many more came. What will happen if we grant amnesty again? Many more will come. Most are from Mexico and a recent survey indicated that most of them retain allegiance to Mexico. This is insane. We need immigrants, to be sure, especially young people since like in other developed countries our population is aging. And better they come from Latin countries with more Western traditions than from Islamic nations (ask the Europeans about that). But people who immigrate here must follow procedures which educate and motivate them to become Americans, true Americans with a knowledge and appreciation of the foundations and structure of this nation. Also, we have skilled jobs going begging in this country – perhaps an immigration point system like Canada’s based upon education, skills, and language will bring people here who are immediately able to economically support themselves and contribute to the commonwealth rather than overburden the social support system. Except for true political refugees, we need a strictly enforced temporary freeze on immigration. Then we need to reform immigration based upon the needs of the nation: young people with a knowledge of English who have skills that are in demand who are willing to immerse themselves in the concept that is America. Regarding those currently here illegally, I’m not going to comment – this post has gotten long enough. Regarding the National Association of Evangelicals and evangelicalism in general, I’m seeing an increasing leftward drift and wonder how much longer I will call myself an evangelical. In truth I’m really a fundamentalist but that term has been grossly distorted and become a caricature and certainly doesn’t reflect who I am.

S.L. Toddard| 10.21.09 @ 1:10PM

The only people who care about illegal immigration are the people who matter least to the elite Beltway class that runs this country: American citizens who find value in their own culture and tradition, and wish to preserve them. There are a number of things we can do to help conserve our way of life, starting with:

A) A well-guarded border wall with Mexico. This is the first and most important measure. What use is conquering wide swaths of the Middle East if terrorists can still waltz across the southern border any time of day or night? And what use is protecting America abroad if we are going to allow it to turn into Mexico anyway?

B) Decrease legal immigration to a trickle, and favor Anglosphere nations first. Our immigration policy should reflect an effort to preserve and enrich our own culture, and as such should favor first those peoples who are the most like us. We should branch out from there according to how close the immigrants are to us culturally: first Anglosphere nations (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa etc), then a lesser number from non-Anglo Western Europe, then from Eastern Europe, radiating outwards and decreasing in numbers from there. The percentage of immigrants allowed in from a country should be directly proportionate to how culturally similar they are to us.

Ryan| 10.21.09 @ 8:08AM

As a reformed (ie Calvinistic) Baptist who attends a PCA church (whose churches are almost as autonomous as the Southern Baptists), I think that the position was ill-advised.

While I support the idea of CIR, I don't think that what was proffered in 2007 was the right way. We CAN offer illegal immigrants a path to either legalization or citizenship, and it does require a radical change in some immigration policies. However, it has to be done while respecting the rule of law AND realizing the intent of people who did not set out to break the law, but to make life better for themselves and their families.

To simply reject immigration reform IS short-sighted and goes against why America was founded; however, there DOES need to be change.

First, border control. No one in or out except those authorized.

Second, re-work the green card system so more people CAN come in and out.

There are other parts that I'm not thinking of, but the above two are essential.

George| 10.21.09 @ 7:46PM

"Second, re-work the green card system so more people CAN come in and out. "

What makes you think that this will work. A large number of illegal aliens are people who were here on visas but failed to honor their promise to leave when they expired. What makes you think that giving more visas to Latin Americans, a group that is already in the top 5 visa holders, will result in their honoring their promises? Latino advocates have already undermined our immigration laws by ridiculing and in so doing undermining respect for them. CIR will not result in making a secure America, as much as the lying advocates say it will, as few criminals will come forward to present themselves for inspection, nor will it make Mexicans respect our borders. A recent Zogby poll shows that if an amnesty were implimented, much of Mexico would migrate north illegally, apparently with expectations that another amnesty would ultimately follow. And they're right, as ultimately the number of vote enfranchised Latinos would increase to the point where our will to enforce the laws declined over time.

As long as Latin American countries are poorly governed they will be sources of illegal immigrants, CIR or no CIR.

Eric Cartman| 10.21.09 @ 8:46AM

Well, seems to me a tax should be levied on any institution that supports illegal immigration. $3,000 a year per member for medical support for illegals, and oh, say $2,000 per member for jailing gang members of illegal immigrants, and another $5,000 - $7,000 per member for education expenses for our schools. That only $12,000 or so a year per member for any church who wished to support illegals. Oh, and they have to build housing for them on church property and give them anything they want while they're alive. There ya go! A plan I can live with.!

KyMouse| 10.21.09 @ 10:03AM

People all around the world wait patiently for their applications to come to this country legally to be approved; they follow our laws. Others push to the head of the line, so to speak, and come here illegally, often stealing Americans' identities once they arrive. I see nothing in the Bible that condones stealing or what amounts to cutting in ahead of others.

Faith McDonnell| 10.21.09 @ 5:09PM

Amen! That is my biggest problem with immigration reform. It is injustice to those who have followed the law and taken their turn.

Norski| 10.21.09 @ 11:27AM

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Unemployment Report released on October 2, 2009:

Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations – Unemployment Rate = 14.3%
Construction and extraction occupations – Unemployment Rate = 17.7%
Production occupations – Unemployment Rate = 14.1%
Transportation, material moving occupations – Unemployment Rate = 12.1%
Service occupations – Unemployment Rate = 9.4%

Total Unemployed Citizens and Legal Residents of the USA = 15,142,000

In addition:

Persons who currently want a job but are not included in the unemployment figures because they have not looked for a job in the last month = 5,922,000

Estimated number of Illegal Immigrants working in the USA = 7,500,000

Meanwhile:

Management, professional, and related occupations – Unemployment Rate = 5.2%

The truth is that Illegal Immigrants compete directly with U.S. Citizens and Legal Residents for jobs. There are no jobs that Americans won’t do because they are doing them. Unless they are one of the 7.5 million Citizens and Legal Residents who could be working but are not at a cost to the Taxpayer of over $100 billion per year thanks to Illegal Immigration. And even when unemployment was at the lowest point of this decade in 2007 the USBLS listed following data:

Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations – Unemployment Rate = 8.5%
Construction and extraction occupations – Unemployment Rate = 7.6%
Production occupations – Unemployment Rate = 5.7%
Transportation, material moving occupations – Unemployment Rate = 6.0%
Service occupations – Unemployment Rate = 5.9%

Meanwhile:
Management, professional, and related occupations – Unemployment Rate = 2.1%

During 2007 we only reached full employment in the Management, professional, and related occupations, while the occupations that attract Illegal Immigrant workers still suffered significant unemployment. And we saw the number of people earning below poverty line wages raise to above 12%. Proof positive of how badly Illegal Immigration has hurt the low income American Citizen and Legal Resident.

But I guess impoverishing millions of American Citizens does not matter when you have Illegal Immigrants to defend. There is a passage in the Bible that talks about no good tree producing bad fruit nor a bad tree producing good fruit. Illegal Immigration is law breaking behavior that includes Illegal Entry, Illegal Presence, Identity Fraud, Identity Theft, coveting what one’s neighbor owns, and bearing false witness. And there is the falsehood often repeated that Illegal Immigrants do jobs that Americans will not do. So much that is wrong cannot lead to good just as the bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Jeffrey| 10.22.09 @ 1:46AM

Excellent work!
We don't need illegals, never did because there has always been a legal path to immigrate to the U.S. The government could have upped the quota to meet real demand.
Having illegals work illegally has always been a form of slavery. It would always have been better to force our neighbors to take care of their own and fix their own problems of corruption. We gave our money to Mexico, we started businesses there but never demanded fair treatment for their citizens in exchange for our dollars. Yes our orchardists have been greedy as well as certain political parties who have sought to exploit the illegals to create a voting block dependant on government largess. Our food prices may have been a little higher but I guarantee you that farmers inovation would have brought forth better harvesting equipment much more quickly if they had the incentive of higher production costs and market price pressure.

George| 10.30.09 @ 7:02PM

"Our food prices may have been a little higher but I guarantee you that farmers inovation would have brought forth better harvesting equipment much more quickly if they had the incentive of higher production costs and market price pressure."

Absolutely! The availability of slave labor has undermined the inclination of our country to mechanize. We've abandoned hand picking cotton, and digging ditches with shovels, but we'll never escape picking vegetables if we continue to rely on third world nation labor.

Anneke| 10.21.09 @ 11:52AM

I have no sympathy left for illegal immigrants. My husband has been unemployed for 3 years. The company he worked for--citing the high cost of doing business in California--closed all of its offices and plants and moved to Colorado. Jim has only been able to find a few short-term, contract jobs.

I have no doubt that the Obama administration and Congress will move to legalize all of the illegals immigrants currently here. Then, all of the illegals will be employed but my husband won't be.

Jim| 10.21.09 @ 12:22PM

As an Evangelical, let me state categorically that the NAE does not speak for me. I was involved in ministry in San Diego I saw the ravages of illegal immigration first hand. The NAE is getting into areas where they have no clue about what they are doing!

cary loos| 10.21.09 @ 12:24PM

Our Christian churches have become the apologists for our welfare state. Every moral
stance from the Gospels has become unhinged from the obligation to pay for it. In the name of morality, our Churches demand that property be taken from all to fund the expanding "few." Nowhere in Christs teachings can you find an exhortation to steal from your neighbors to show how much you love God. Only Christians, giving freely of their own property, come close to a vision of God's kingdom.

Tricia| 10.21.09 @ 2:43PM

Since when did evangelical Christian leaders assume the role of the Vatican and government-influenced religion? It's time for the NEA to focus on spreading the message of Jesus Christ and His abundant glory. Period.

They do not speak for me.

Joe| 10.21.09 @ 4:51PM

Well this resolution does not sit well with me or many of the Christians I know who are part of the NAE, my wife included and legal Latina. Encouraging people to brake the law by butting in from of others who would like to come here is not Biblical no matter how they dress it up. We are never to brake the law of the land which God has set up (Romans 13) unless it goes against God's law. And deciding who is allow to live in the US is not.

Joe| 10.21.09 @ 4:54PM

And by the way Tricia, the Vatican does not speak for us and therefore we do not have to worry about speaking for ourselves. They are not the final word on what Christains should or should not do. Remember Martin Luther?

jr| 10.21.09 @ 5:14PM

"'we're in favor of comprehensive immigration reform.'" Is that a Biblical expression or it is it the liberal church turning the other cheek, the other cheek, the other cheek? That is precisely why I left the organized church several years ago. It continues failing to apply the old story about teaching a kid to fish and he will never go hungry.

Margie| 10.21.09 @ 5:26PM

Typical Liberal Leftist stance to refer to their opponents as "simplistic." Anytime you want to be immoral that's a great way to reproach the one wanting to do what's right. God will separate the sheep from the goats in the end. Mt. 25:32. In the meantime I would separate myself from any church or organization who practices this sort of "religion." Rev. 18:4.

Sam| 10.22.09 @ 1:51AM

I'm disappointed by some of the viewpoints I've read here. One of you wants to restrict immigration to " protect our culture." What is our culture? Our culture is SHAPED by the immigrants who have been coming to this country since its inception.

Now obviously that doesn't mean we should open the borders and let the world in, but preserving our 'culture'? Being 'American' is all about perservering through adversity, working hard, taking opportunities where you can get them, and trying to make a good life for your family. THAT's American culture. Most Mexican immigrants who come here try to do just that so I don't know how they would harm our culture.

Some of you are just jealous that Mexican workers are beating you (isn't competition a conservative value?) Others of you are letting fear of the unknown govern you. You should talk to a Mexican-American immigrant so that you can see firsthand that they are no less American in their values than you or I.

Norski| 10.22.09 @ 10:16AM

Here we go again! The old song and dance about how if you lost your job to an Illegal Immigrant it must be because you are somehow less of a human being. Never have I seen such a systematic lack of compassion for a whole class of people. This attitude refuses to recognize the fact that Illegal Immigrants can be hired at pay rates that a Citizen of the USA cannot begin to compete with due to some very specific economic facts. And it refuses to recognize the craven nature of those who hire them. I think Samuel Gompers, Founder and President of the American Federation of Labor said it best in a 1924 letter to Congress when he wrote: "Every effort to enact immigration legislation must expect to meet a number of hostile forces and, in particular, two hostile forces of considerable strength. One of these is composed of corporation employers who desire to employ physical strength (broad backs) at the lowest possible wage and who prefer a rapidly revolving labor supply at low wages to a regular supply of American wage earners at fair wages. The other is composed of racial groups in the United States who oppose all restrictive legislation because they want the doors left open for an influx of their countrymen regardless of the menace to the people of their adopted country." So which of these two groups engaged in the exploitation of the Illegal Immigration situation do you fall into?

Margie| 10.22.09 @ 12:27PM

Sam,
We're talking ILLEGAL immigration here. You know, breaking the law?

Elaine| 10.22.09 @ 9:35PM

Illegal immigrants directly effect my job. I work at a school office and if I were to apply for my job today I would have to be bilingual. My husband is in construction and that industry is definitely affected. Schools celebrate Cinco de Mayo.....if we don't carefully and systematically draw immigrants into our language and culture, we will divide and then fight for resources, just look at world history. People don't share, they conquer.

victor| 10.23.09 @ 1:46AM

"You should talk to a Mexican-American immigrant so that you can see firsthand that they are no less American in their values than you or I."
As long as they came here legally and applied for and took the oath of Citizenship, I have no problem with them.
Now, if they came across the border iin th emiddle of the night and are therefore here ILLEGALLY, then I have no use for them.
My parents came here after putting their names on a list and waiting their turn to come here.
Stop conflating ILLEGAL immigration with LEGAL immigration. They are not the same and never will be the same.

Sean| 11.14.09 @ 3:29AM

Illegal immigration and legal immigration are two very broad categories of immigration. There is a gray area. My grandfather came to the US illegally, after living here for awhile immigration arrested him and gave him the option of being deported or jail time for a year. He chose jail and was able to get his residency after doing his time. My grandfather was a very giving, hardworking and God-fearing man.
This is the richest nation in the world we will always have illegal immigrants, just like we have always had. People who are opposed to giving them redemption, a path to citizenship (not handing it to them but making them earn it) are not God fearing people, based on these posts. They are scared, ignorant, faithless and selfish people who accuse people of supporting such a plan as having some secret agenda that will benefit themselves. I have nothing to gain if they had a path for legalization, I don't even have relatives in Italy anymore. I feel it is morally right. These are people who want to work and support their families just like any immigrant. Hispanics have been coming over here in record numbers for decades the government did nothing and there was no opposition, now everyone is crying? Why now? Because they speak with an accent, because they speak spanish better than english, because your kid stood beside a brown kid in their class photo, because they are different than YOU. You selfish, ignorant people must have been born with your american citizenship, you don't deserve it; its this selfish, paranoia and ignorant mindset that will drive this country to hell not the illegal immigrants!
After securing our borders it is inhuman not to give them an option of gaining residency. Looking the other way for decades while millions came over and built our schools and houses and built their families and then denying them the freedom to drive, to work, for due process now, is sinful.

Jeffrey| 10.22.09 @ 2:04AM

My message to the NAE is; Put up or shut up. Take your damn money and support the illegals yourselves. Encouraging the government to force charity from the taxpayers is hardly charity at all, it's Robim Hood, stealing from those who earn it and giving it to those who did not.
If you want to walk in Gods Word ye servants of the Lord give of yourselves and don't hold back, do it in secret and don't make a public show of it. Then you will have your blessing back ten fold. This is Gods natural law which He upholds faithfully forever. Thieves also trigger another of Gods wonderful natural laws. They will repay all of it and then some more. Those who encourage thievery shall reap the same.
You evangelicals should take note of the ignorance of your leadership and do something about it.

Larry | 10.22.09 @ 5:13AM

There is an excellent Zogby poll out which is most relevant to this exact issue. One of the smoke screens that open borders cheerleaders, in and outside of the Congress, is that -- again -- they claim they will secure the borders and perhaps enforce employers' sanctions laws. Since the IRCA of 1986, all can see how well adequate laws on the books have been enforced.

So I give you the following Zogby poll of Oct. 2009. Some startling findings of Mexican public opinion regarding mass amnesty of 12 - 20+ millions illegal aliens.

Among the findings:

A clear majority of people in Mexico, 56 percent, thought giving legal status to illegal immigrants in the United States would make it more likely that people they know would go to the United States illegally. Just 17 percent thought it would make Mexicans less likely to go illegally. The rest were unsure or thought it would make no difference.

Of Mexicans with a member of their immediate household in the United States, 65 percent said a legalization program would make people they know more likely to go to America illegally.

Two-thirds of Mexicans know someone living in the United States; one-third said an immediate member of their household was living in the United States.

Interest in going to the United States remains strong even in the current recession, with 36 percent of Mexicans (39 million people) saying they would move to the United States if they could. At present, 12 to 13 million Mexico-born people live in the United States.

A new Pew Research Center poll also found that about one-third of Mexicans would go to the United States if they could.

An overwhelming majority (69 percent) of people in Mexico thought that the primary loyalty of Mexican-Americans (Mexico- and U.S.-born) should be to Mexico. Just 20 percent said it should be to the United States. The rest were unsure.

Also, 69 percent of people in Mexico felt that the Mexican government should represent the interests of Mexican-Americans (Mexico- and U.S.-born) in the United States.

A plurality, 39 percent, of Mexicans thought that in the last year fewer people they know had gone to the United States as illegal immigrants compared to previous years. Only 27 percent thought more had gone. The rest thought it had stayed the same or were unsure.

Besides breaking the laws of the United States, the accurate rate of unemployment is 22%, affecting some 25 million Americans without full employment. See http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data This is a depression, and it will take YEARS, very likely a decade or longer, for most of the 25 million Americans to be re-employed.

Furthermore, a very detailed study from the Center for Immigration Studies [CIS] finally debunks the Big Lie of the "jobs that Americans will not do." The study and the Zogby poll couldn't have come at a more opportune time.

http://cis.org/illegalImmigration-employment ~~ Jobs Americans Won't Do? A Detailed Look at Immigrant Employment by Occupation

This analysis tests the often-made argument that immigrants only do jobs Americans don’t want. If the argument is correct, there should be occupations comprised entirely or almost entirely of immigrants. But Census Bureau data collected from 2005 to 2007, which allow for very detailed analysis, show that even before the recession there were only a tiny number of majority-immigrant occupations. (Click here to see detailed table.)
Among the findings:

Of the 465 civilian occupations, only four are majority immigrant. These four occupations account for less than 1 percent of the total U.S. workforce. Moreover, native-born Americans comprise 47 percent of workers in these occupations.

Many jobs often thought to be overwhelmingly immigrant are in fact majority native-born:
Maids and housekeepers: 55 percent native-born
Taxi drivers and chauffeurs: 58 percent native-born
Butchers and meat processors: 63 percent native-born
Grounds maintenance workers: 65 percent native-born
Construction laborers: 65 percent native-born
Porters, bellhops, and concierges: 71 percent native-born
Janitors: 75 percent native-born

Sam| 10.22.09 @ 12:56PM

We're talking ILLEGAL immigration here. You know, breaking the law?- Margie

I agree with this idea, Margie. I really do. But that's not the general opinion of most people posting comments. They take issue with culture. Like you, I believe they are breaking the law and that illegal immigration is wrong.

But the illegals who come here are only doing what any reasonable person would do in their situation. If anyone is to blame, it is us for offering them jobs and opportunities that they can't get it Mexico.

But I think you'll agree that saying our culture is under attack doesn't mean we're talking about just illegal immigration. It means ALL immigration.
That's what I take issue with. If a guest worker program were instituted to make these immigrants legal as you reasonably want, many of the people here would still be upset that their culture is under attack.

Margie| 10.22.09 @ 11:24PM

I didn't say anything about wanting a program as you refer to.

And I believe you are trying to paint others in a poor light in a sneaky kind of way with that last half of your last sentence. Sorry but I've got eagle's eyes. It's a talent on loan from... guess Who?

victor| 10.23.09 @ 1:51AM

"it is us for offering them jobs and opportunities that they can't get it Mexico."
Who offers them jobs and opportunities?
If they do, then they are breaking the law by encouraging other law breakers and both need to be punished. One with deportation and the other with incarceration.
I don't want to make illegals legal. That's the point
You come here legally and there is no point of contention. Period!

Brittanicus| 10.22.09 @ 6:51PM

Another condemnation by faith groups is Sen. Chuck Schumer's attempt to claim overwhelming evangelical Christian support for his pending amnesty legislation has crumbled. His master plan was to use the staff and leadership of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) to give the impression of near unanimity.

The NAE tried. But after the members in the pew erupted, only 11 of the 40 NAE member denominations have been willing to sign on to endorse amnesty and Schumer's "comprehensive immigration reform" agenda.

Call and blast your Senators and Representative at 202-224-3121 in Washington. Overwhelming the switchboard with your calls, as it is having an outstanding effect of--MILLIONS of angry voters. INFORM THEM DO YOUR DUTY OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES ON RE-ELECTION DAY? Tell them you want a PERMANENT E-Verify for--EVERY WORKER, a secure double layer fence and--REAL--enforcement against sanctuary state policies. Read undisclosed facts at NUMBERSUSA. UNEARTH the corruption at JUDICIAL WATCH. Your voice is needed to halt OVERPOPULATION and American Worker survival. Demand NO-MORE-AMNESTIES. Go home and come through the front door, like millions of legal immigrants?

DAD77| 10.23.09 @ 12:53PM

NAE President: "It is also because so many Hispanic, African and Asian immigrants are evangelical Christians who are in our denominations and churches by the millions. "

Doesn't this just smack of GREED? Because they are in their churches and filling their coffers it is ok? Whatever happen to seeking spirituality instead of material things by the churches?

If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law,
even his prayers are detestable.

DAD77| 10.23.09 @ 12:57PM

Shame on these church leaders for advocating corruption. Justice and mercy are biblical principals.

Scriptures clearly designate government authorities to make laws and enforce order. Christians are obligated to submit to these authorities not only out of fear but out of conscience. (Romans 13) Hence the authorities are charged not only with making the laws but enforcing them. Standards of justice are not fully moral if they are not accompanied by judgment and punishment.

A study by the Pew Center stated 85% of those who entered the US illegally had jobs in Mexico. They come here for more pay and better secular education for their kids. Laws only matter when they work in your favor? The church supports this? How does this help the immigrants spiritually? How does this help spiritually the children of immigrants? The church is just promoting corruption by their disregard for of government laws.

Richard Baker| 10.23.09 @ 10:30PM

Send the damned illegal Mexicans back to their pesthole of a country. Let them fix their own screwed-up country and stop destroying mine. Git!

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shoey| 10.25.09 @ 9:29PM

the Churches are being infiltrated and taken over by liberalism.

I believe in God, but i longer have a Church to go to.

masher| 11.27.09 @ 1:48AM

Evangelicals are leftist hippies. Who knew? This is really amazing. The American people just can't get a break. Every organization seems to be against us.

Now its the right wing pushing for open borders. Of course they never require that other countries grant the same to US citizens.

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