The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time

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It’s Way Past Tea Party Time

By Andrew Cline on 4.15.09 @ 6:09AM

How did it become “fair” for an American family to give government upwards of 50 percent of its income?

Of all the outrages that led to Americans organizing “tea parties” today to protest high taxes and unprecedented federal spending, the most serious and consequential has gone on the longest — and has been almost entirely unnoticed.

It is best explained by a Gallup poll released yesterday. According to the poll, 48 percent of Americans said their tax rates were “about right,” 46 percent said they were “too high,” and 3 percent said they were “too low.” On the income tax alone, 61 percent called the amount they had to pay this year “fair.”

The average state and local tax burden in the United States was 9.7 percent in 2008, according to the Tax Foundation. That means that on average every American paid 9.7 percent of his income in state and local taxes alone last year. On top of that, Americans paid federal income tax rates of between 10 percent and 35 percent. On top of that, many paid federal capital gains taxes, estate taxes, cigarette taxes, etc.

What so many Americans are calling “fair” is often between 20 percent and 45 percent of their income — not including taxes on capital gains, interest and other incidentals. President Obama wants to raise the highest federal bracket to 39 percent. If that happens, Americans earning more than about $373,000 a year will give to government roughly 50 percent of all they earn. In states such as New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, and California, where such an income is not all that unusual for a dual-income couple, that already happens when all taxes are accounted for.

How did it become “fair” for an American family to give to government a third of its income? How did it become “fair” for an American family to give to government half of its income?

When Parliament passed the Stamp Act in 1765, Americans had never before experienced direct taxation. They rebelled. In 1767, Parliament passed the Townshend Acts, which levied taxes on an array of British goods. The colonists responded by boycotting British imports. Parliament repealed most of the Townshend Acts in 1770 (except the tax on tea), and in 1773 passed the Tea Act, which essentially told Americans they had to buy their tea from the East India Company through government-approved merchants. Though the act actually lowered the cost of British tea, Americans were so outraged at Britain’s assertion of authority that they forbade tea-bearing ships from docking. And, of course, in Boston they threw 342 chests of tea into the harbor.

All of these taxes, by the way, were passed to finance the British Army. The newly independent United States taxed its people directly to pay off the war and ongoing conflicts with France, but in 1802, under President Jefferson, all direct taxation upon the American people was ended. That lasted for a decade, until we had to finance the War of 1812. That war was paid off by 1817, and Americans experienced no direct taxation from their federal government until 1861.

That means that “Manifest Destiny,” including James K. Polk’s war with Mexico, and the expansion of the country from coast to coast, was financed without a single direct federal tax being levied upon the American people.

The federal income tax imposed to finance the Civil War had two tax brackets — 3 percent and 5 percent — and was repealed in 1872. It remained off the books until 1913, when the 16th Amendment was ratified. The federal income tax rates in 1913 ranged from 1 percent to 7 percent. That highest rate applied to people earning $500,000 a year or more. Today, a married couple earning that much would pay a federal income tax rate of 35 percent, and with all taxes combined could pay more than half their income in taxes.

The greatest tax outrage in American history is Washington’s gradual convincing of the American people that giving so much of their income to the government is just and fair.

Our forefathers rebelled over taxes that amounted to pennies per item, and two centuries later we fork over 40 percent of our income and call it “fair.” The excise taxes and import duties that financed Washington for more than a century were not sustainable. A new tax system was needed. But in the century that followed its adoption, it changed the American people themselves.

Americans today are taxed at levels most of our forebears would have considered unthinkable. By our own nation’s historical standards, we are outrageously, insanely overtaxed. And yet we shrug our shoulders and say, well, at least we’re not France.

By the way, France’s top marginal tax rate is 40 percent. President Obama plans to raise our top marginal rate to 39 percent.

As Samuel Adams, organizer of the Boston Tea Party, said in his famous speech in Philadelphia in August of 1776, “When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny.”

About the Author

Andrew Cline is editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union Leader. His Twitter ID is @Drewhampshire.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (305) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Aaron| 4.15.09 @ 6:50AM

"48 percent of Americans said their tax rates were "about right," . WOW!

jack| 4.15.09 @ 7:16AM

40% of Ameicans pay no Fed Inc Tax

david reich| 4.15.09 @ 7:19AM

Let's not forget: Almost 50% of Americans pay no or nearly no income tax. If I paid no income tax, I would probably not be unhappy with the current system. It would be helpful to know exactly who was polled.

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 7:31AM

My fellow Americans for the first time in my working career I had to write a check to the Federal Task Masters.
I'm 51 and began working even before I could reach the peddles on my father's tractor and truck.
I always made sure I had enough withholding taken out so I wouldn't have to pay extra at the end of the tax year.
I cannot justify the white hot seething rage I feel right now toward this government right now. When I began filling out my 1040a on the line that we are supposed to put our occupation I entered, "Economic Slave." My wife was none to happy about it, but I had to do something to vent the anger after seeing parasites show up at the local market in a Hummer and pay for their items with food stamps.
I still drive a 1996 Buick Century and thanks to Bill Clinton's environmental rules the clear coat is peeling making the car look like is has a case of the mange.
Dammit people, I like many of you are tired of being slaves to our government working day and day out forcing ourselves to get out of bed even when we are not feeling well and going to work because we have the responsibility of taking care of our families before our personal needs and when I read in the local newspaper that there is a new federal program that gives cell phones to the poor, that is the match that has lit the fuse.
I sincerely hope that this Tea Party is not just a flash in the pan event and after that everybody goes home and nothing else happens.
Our federal government is not the only ones who are corrupt and out of control but so is the sates and local governments whose use tax dollars to fund workshops and retreats to explore ways to increase the revenue stream.
We need to march on City Halls across this Country and corner the bureacrats and threatened them with eviction if they don't exercise fiscal responsibility and stop funding every feel good program that comes down the pike.
Hell, I'm starting to ramble now, I do that when I am so angry that it has to go somewhere.
I'm going to our local tea party and I'm going to voice things that they organizer may not want to hear.
The time for negotiating and reason is over and the only thing government bureaucrats understand is when they see millions upon millions of angry Americans outside those gilded government glass doors with fire and anger in their eyes, then maybe just maybe they'll get the message.
I unfortunately I doubt it because the Homeland Security Chief already has classified us as Extreme Right Wing Domestic Terrorists.

Steve| 4.15.09 @ 7:32AM

If people object to paying high taxes they have an alternative, albeit an unpalatable one: cease working and become a dope-smoking parasite like your typical democrat. Woo-hoo!!! Bad gummint -- no tax dollars for you.

Don't bogart that joint, my friend........

JamesD| 4.15.09 @ 7:33AM

Perhaps, public education at its finest?
What better way to stifle creative thinking than to teach it, poorly?

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 8:07AM

Hey David,
It's not just one party or the other, they're both complicit in their economic rape. This may sound like a contradictory statement, but I don't mind paying taxes that I have control over.
David! we have no control over our money. If it isn't taxes, its the ridiculous fees that we have to pay and have a bureaucrats look us in the eyes and tell us that the fee isn't really a tax.
David, you posted sometime ago that you are waiting for your inheritance. Brother, the government is going to beat you with a hose until you say, "No mass!, just take the damn house and leave me alone."
Corporate welfare, farm subsidies, and unneeded social programs like free cell phones need to end and end now.

WRTolkas| 4.15.09 @ 8:08AM

Dear Melvin,

I fully agree with your comments except my car was a Toyota 4X4 I purchased in 1986 that finally broke last year. I just don't understand why citizens complain about government and vote the same rascals back into office. For myself, I plan to wear a teabag on my I.D. badge today as there are no "Tea Parties" in my vicinity.

Regards,

WRTolkas

GHWalker| 4.15.09 @ 8:19AM

Teabags are for sissies! If only 10% of those who make estimated payments held them up for two weeks, that would send a message. If the government doesn't get the message, don't send the June 15 payments at all. The IRS depends on voluntary compliance with the Tax Code. Let's just stop volunteering!

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 8:20AM

The negative federal tax rates that have been legislated are probably a good reason why so many feel their taxes are just about right.

Not only do they not pay federal taxes, but through Obama's "middle class tax cut" they are granted the fruits of other's labors.

If Obama can get them more dependent upon the government Opiates they'll give up the promise that was once the American dream for cheap mediocrity.

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 8:24AM

Notice the "" marks around "tax cut". If you pay no taxes it is impossible to cut them.

I understand this is difficult for liberals to understand but sometimes so are shiny objects.

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 8:24AM

Thats the thing GH, the government keeps us at each others throats and keeps us separated so we don't do exactly what you suggest. My idea is a bit more radical, National Strike.
There are two things that strike the fear into a politician, not getting reelected, and the loss of tax revenue.
No body shops, no body works the entire Country shuts down for x-amount of time. The streets of America would look like a ghost town, what is the government task masters going to do, come into our homes and force us back to work?

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 8:29AM

Stop crying you say about paying taxes David, will you still tell me that when you start paying taxes like property taxes on your inheritance.

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 8:36AM

I think with all of Dave Mathews "wisdom" he is an excellent mouth piece for the moronic left, but he could also have a somewhat reasonably productive career selling "Street Wise" in Chicago.

He has the intellect for that.

otto| 4.15.09 @ 8:37AM

The public comprehends that all those schools, roads, healthcare, military, police, environmental protection et al have to be paid for. These sort of fulminations about 1776 and so forth are basically rather silly. In fact the overall tax burden in the US is amongst the lowest in the western world despite Cline's claims to the contrary. He makes a lot of apples with oranges comparisons to claim otherwise but that's the reality. The notion that the overall tax rate in this country is higher than in France which he implies but doesn't actually say is totally ludicrous, and I know this because I've worked there. He essentially seems to be complaining that there is going to be a tax shift with the top marginal rate going up from the mid to high thirties and in some way this will mean a disproportionate share of money being taken from high earners. What he doesn't address is that this is largely a factor of distribution of income in the US which enjoys greater income inequality than any other country in the west. If you want to get the true facts Bruce Bartlett has a good oped up at Fortune I think which tells it how it is.

Big J| 4.15.09 @ 8:39AM

Melvin,

You are right to be outraged. Having been self-employed for almost 7 years now, we have had our fare share of taxation (without representation). I believe if witholding was done away with, the rest of the country would have been outraged long ago. Corporations have to pay quarterly based on last year's tax bill, then pay the rest on April 15th. I won't go into the numbers, but this year IT HURT! Taxes are the number 1 reason that 4 out of 5 businesses fail. Sad to treat employers and potential employers that way.

It's fantastic that your going to a Tea Party. I am sad to see the apathy amongst my friends and fellow contractors, even in todays bloated government and out of control spending. Remember: What happens after the Tea Party is completely up to you. Stay active and informed. Keep calling your elected losers (I mean officials) and make them listen. When the next election rolls around, find candidates that represent your views and support them. Volunteer, donate, tell others, etc. Americans have been asleep for a very long time, which has led us to where we are.

As a Japanese commander once said: "I am afraid they have awaken a sleeping giant."

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 8:39AM

A little history around the 16th ammendment.

At the time of its passage the people wanted to put a 15% cap on the income tax, written into the ammendment.

It was abandoned because most could not believe that taxes would ever get so high, and thought the 15% would encourage congress to raise taxes to that rate.

Michael Tomlinson| 4.15.09 @ 8:39AM

Not only are Barack Obama and the neo-fascists of his party destroying freedom by spending more than all previous Presidents in a few months, but they are planning to use tax increases to destroy our standard of living to increase their power.

Of course, if we speak out against the growing tyranny of Obama the "jacket booted" thugs now leading DHS and his administration will use this to condemn us and hysterically claim we're a threat to the country. How perverse -- Obama is eager to reach out to crazed Muslim killers while he condemns patriotic Americans who exercize their Constitutional rights. What a uniter?

Republicans need to steer a different course calling for a flat 10% tax on income and a flat 2 1/2 % FICA & Medicare tax for everyone making under a million dollars. For rich "Democrats" the income tax should go up by 5-10% on income and 2 1/2% for FICA & Medicare.

Curly Smith| 4.15.09 @ 8:39AM

Didn't you leave out the combined Social Security/Medicare tax rate of 15.3%? You know, the tax that even those who don't pay income taxes get to pay?

Bobbi| 4.15.09 @ 8:41AM

I can't believe David Axelrod has so much time on his hands that he can troll AS. Amazing!

Bram| 4.15.09 @ 8:54AM

Thank you for the historical perspective. We really are a bunch of frogs in the boiling pot.

I pay far too much in taxes. That's not why I'll be at a Tea Party today. I'll be there for my kids. I don't want them to be victims of a socialist tyranny.

I want them to enjoy the same freedoms Americans have always been entitled to - including economic freedom. I don't want them to inherit a second rate socialist mess of a country.

Stefan Kristen| 4.15.09 @ 9:01AM

David Mathews:
You are very good at hurling sarcastic vitriol at those of us who simply want to offer a comment. I don't know what the point of your silly remarks is, but if your intent is to create animus toward you, congratulations, you have suceeded. An enthusiastically argued point of view is enjoyable and enlightening, but your bitter frothing is disturbing in the same way as an encounter with paranoid scizophrenia. Since this is an open forum, you must be tolerated, but a civil tongue and rational argument would be greatly appreciated.

Brad| 4.15.09 @ 9:02AM

I'm am pleased the name is printed above the comments, so when I see "David Matthews" I can just skip to the next, for I know there will not be reason or intelligence behind his remarks. And I do not wish diminish my own reason and intelligence for having read them.

chuck| 4.15.09 @ 9:12AM

All money that you EARN represents a portion of your life that you used. When this money(your time and effort) is taken from you involuntarily in the form of an income tax, it is slavery. Pure and simple. It is wrong that half the people in this so called free country are economic slaves to the other half.
If you haven't already, please read Atlas Shrugged, easily the best book ever written. It is an eye-opener, and will change your life.
What this country needs is an "Atlas Shrugged" year, where none of the "producers" of this country earn more than the bare minimum they need to survive, then shut down their businesses for the rest of the year. The economic impact would be devastating, and it would show everyone just how important a relatively few people are to the economy of this country. Plus, it would starve the Imperial Federal Government of tax dollars these formerly "rich" people would have had to pay.

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 9:18AM

RedPlanetCartoons » Tax Day links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…— but the remainder would certainly come home. How long would it take for that to happen? he was asked. Years? Decades? “Months,” the chairman responded. Andrew Cline: It’s Way Past Tea Party Time. The federal income tax imposed to finance the Civil War had two tax brackets — 3 percent and 5 percent — and was repealed in 1872. It remained off the books until 1913, when…

mredder4| 4.15.09 @ 9:18AM

Can't forget to mention France as the boogeyman! "Woooooooo, France has high tax rates. We're gonna be just like France. The horror!!!"

The irony is that if you have a heart attack in France over high tax rates, those taxes pay for the free health care that will save your life.

Dorothy. TN| 4.15.09 @ 9:29AM

Citizens have been calling and writing to our "representatives" complaining about the poor government for the past 8 years and longer. The government ignores the citizens. What is left to us to get our voices heard but to take to the streets in protest.

dajhilton| 4.15.09 @ 9:33AM

A very good article so far as it goes . . but the claim that many Americans will pay 50% or more of their income to the US government significantly understates the problem. As many as 10 million Americans who are paid in foreign currencies or for work abroad will pay far more than 50% of their income in taxes because of the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax (which disallows the deduction of foreign taxes paid). In recent years I have regularly paid between 75% and 80% of my total income in taxes because of the AMT and various currency fluxuations. Until the AMT is repealed - not just reduced - the US taxation system will continue to be a laughingstock around the world.

sb| 4.15.09 @ 9:34AM

Ya know... during the Revolution, they had a name for people like David Mathews and others here who find it necessary to defend oppressive government: loyalists. I guess he would have supported King George if this were 1776.

Jack | 4.15.09 @ 9:37AM

Melvin,
The mistake many make is that they feel we all accept this amount of social service as a requirement of life. Then services are used to make slaves of those who would give in to weakness. They re-elect their gift givers because they have become so reliant on the gifts they cannot do without. They need MORE from you not less. If you think this year was bad just wait. I too will make my small protest and look forward to being a speed bump in any way I can.

Who loves this country more, those who defend and support it with their dollars or those with their hands out. We both love it, just for different reasons.

don| 4.15.09 @ 9:38AM

Yeah, France is great, the old folks die during rampant episodes of global warming while their spoiled children are on holiday to escape the rampant inner city Muslim riots against multiculturalism. Ah, the discrete charm of the bourgeoise.

wes| 4.15.09 @ 9:50AM

Why do we mention France and high taxes when we could be talking about Canada and high taxes.
If you have a heart attack in either of these hight tax countries, chances are very good you will be waiting a long time for the "free" health care that libtards so desperately want here.

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 10:11AM

True Jack, but what does one do when one decides not to feed the parasites any more. The parasites move off to find another host. This is what we need to do, Stop willingly feeding the parasites.

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 10:12AM

What’s Fair About 50% | links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…for an American family to give to government a third of its income? How did it become “fair” for an American family to give to government half of its income? Read the whole thing here. Leave a Reply You must be logged in to post a comment. laprang2c WPtheme by

mark in wv| 4.15.09 @ 10:21AM

What no one is saying (shame on us, conservatives) is that

Jon Do| 4.15.09 @ 10:25AM

When 50% of the people pay 97% of all Fed taxes, why would you be surprised?

Dee| 4.15.09 @ 10:26AM

For many middle class Americans like myself, if I didn't have to pay taxes I would have more money to pay bills. It would be nice. However, I believe I am taxed pretty fairly. No, I can't save as much as I would like, but that's life.

I am sorry, but unlike you, I can't muster up too much sympathy for people making 300k+ a year. And I would bet that most Americans feel the same way. I live in the northeast, and the cost of living is off the charts. But trust me when I say that even in the northeast, if you make over 250k you will still be able to get your McMansion. I worked for a new home builder during the housing boom when prices were out of this world, and I was privy to income info for the buyers so I have seen it for myself. Sorry if Bob and Sue can only take 2 vacations this year instead of 3.

I am not an economic expert, but I know we have programs in this country that need to be paid for somehow. The right is always screaming about welfare, but ask them if they are willing to give up their government run Medicare or Social Security and they become curiously silent. People scream about social programs until they need one.

mark in wv| 4.15.09 @ 10:31AM

What no one is saying is that GOVERNMENT DOES NOT EXIST TO REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH!!! And, like most Americans, I don't mind paying for basic government services and a strong national defense, but Obama's tax plans sound so convoluted, not to mention the fact that its NONE OF THE GOVERNMENTS DAMN BUSINESS how much someone makes nor is it their job to "spread it around."

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 10:35AM

Unfortunately for many that are products of government run education in this country that are totally incapable of independent thought.
They do not have the concept of working, paying taxes of all kinds, the plethora of fees that are heaped upon the productive of this Country.
I use the term, "Parasites" quite often because the parasite class is totally dependent on the government. This is why we see so many of the instant mobs pop up across this Country with ACORN as the wranglers. ACORN will post a message at the closest college that they are providing free transportation and meals to go to whatever protest that is scheduled for that day. So the majority of the college students that show up have not a clue in why they are collected in a large group for the photo op. They just got on the bus for the free stuff.
This technique was used during the immigration reform protests a number of years back. The reporter asked a number of college students why they were at the protest and they kids were so naive that they said, " Dunno, we just came for the free lunch."
This is why the, "Free Lunch attitude is so prevalent in our society, "Don't care who pays just as long as it's free."
We the productive class, have the power to stop the parasite class. Conduct a National Strike, Conservatives by nature are individualists, but in this case we need to band together and force the leeches of the parasite class off our backs.

mark in wv| 4.15.09 @ 10:38AM

What about social security? As a concept I think its a good idea. So if, by law, I have to set aside so much money, fine, but let ME decide how to invest the money and let the market compete for it.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 10:38AM

I love how conservaties love to portray France as this bastion of lazy, morally corrupt liberals who don't know they've somehow already engineered the inevitable (and fast approaching) downfall of their own country from high taxes and government programs. Here's a few points the plutocrat who wrote this article should be reminded of. First, Obama's tax plan only increases taxes on the wealthy. If any single american makes more than 100 grand a year after taxes then you are RICH. It might not feel like it to you since someone gave you a paycheck worth 100grand you natrually now feel that you deserve to make that much money while you tell yourself that people who make less than you just aren't trying hard enough. 100 grand a year means that you personally take home more money per year than any 3 average americans. Stop whining about your taxes being too high you pathetic loser! Trade in your BMW and downsize to a 5 bedroom house. You'll be fine. No one cares about Richy Rich's taxes going up 3%.

Second: France's tax code includes 100% free health care, 5 weeks paid vacation per year for ALL citizens who work full time regardless of their job (Even fast food flingers get their 5 weeks a year) VASTLY cheaper higher education and, of course, 100% free healthcare.

Last: Obama isnt increasing taxes. He's repealing W's retarded tax cut that caused a significant portion of our now astronomically high national debt. The rest came from the Iraq war and the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security. Oh hey what party was Bush from? He was one of those...what are they called? The really irresponsible party that always ruins our country with wasteful programs and frivilous spending? The party that seems to keep making poor diplomatic moves all the time that make the world a less safe place for America and democracy everywhere? Oh yeah the Republicans.

The only outrage here is that our government could be giving every single american free healthcare and a free undergraduate education for the amount of money we currently pay in taxes. Where is all that extra money going? Corruption. End of story. It's not about liberals or conservatives you stupid morons. It's about the rich and the poor. The HAVES and the HAVE NOTS. 95% of us are in the latter category. How much money per year do you think the leaders (the leaders...not the slack jawed yokels who attend) this "tea party" movement make per year? I bet every single one of them will be affected by Obama's repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 10:42AM

Well this Conservative Moron has lived in various countries around the world and had the opportunity to circle the glove twice. And Moron you are as ignorant as your post.
People in Canada and England are dying because of their sub-standard health care. I'm not talking about going down to the local health Center and getting your free weekly condoms, I'm talking about women who have advanced breast Cancer who are told to go home and die because it isn' cost effect to try and save them.
I'm talking about the aged being denied health care because they are old and not productive any more so the state will not spend the allocated health care to make their lives more bearable.
So don't give me or anyone else that socialised crap that Canada's Health Care is better. Apparently your not old enough to had you Colostomy yet because your head is so far up your nether region you can't see the truth with socialised health care.

Anthony| 4.15.09 @ 10:44AM

Well friends, how does it feel knowing that the DHS has deemed us right wing fanatics, subversives that need to be watched!! For a guy whose worst crime in 57 years on this planet has been a speeding ticket, I kinda feel like a rebel with a cause; saving America from these radicals.
I hope Ms. Napolitano is taking notice of TAS today. Let me be the first to tell my fellow Italian-American what an absolute disgrace she is. Janet, do you stand in front of your full length mirror in your tax payer plush office admiring yourself in your jackboots the way Benito used to do, with jaw jutted? There is a slight resemblance, now that I think about it, don't you agree?
Obama and you are right to be concerned. The radical left is pushing the envelope faster than even you fanatics hoped for. Americans will not stand for this, and your intimidation will not deter us. Now why don't you do something constructive today and apologize to our returning veterans whom you libeled worse than Kerry, Reid, Clinton and Durban ever did.
And Janet, I presume DHS is also monitoring Obama's buddies, you know, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, his fire bombing wifey and the rest of the ACORN, CODE PINK, assembly of leftist idiots. Right Janet?

Adam| 4.15.09 @ 10:45AM

And whoever said it isn't the government's job to redistribute wealth:

Yes that is true. However as the gap between the wealthy and the poor becomes increasingly wide (and it is frighteningly fast) the country is becoming unstable. If the government doesnt redistribute your wealth then someone else is going to do it for you. Guns are easy to come by here in the US yaknow.

Jose Padilla| 4.15.09 @ 10:56AM

Did anyone else notice that the justification for most of the US Federal taxes has been war fighting? The "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" cost the American tax payer both money and opportunity to use tax revenue for government programs that help Americans. Why do we pay taxes to "spread freedom" in Iraq when our country is the only Western nation without national health care? Why do we send our tax dollars to fat cat bankers on Wall Street when old folks who were swindled by mortgage brokers are going to their beaten and broke?

If we Americans aren't unhappy about how much they pay in taxes they should at least be livid and outraged about how our money is wasted by corrupt politicians doing the bidding of corporate Kings.

Skep41 | 4.15.09 @ 11:00AM

50% in your dreams! In my beloved home state of Gollyvornia (using the Governator's pronounciation) the Obamunist 39% tax on high incomes is topped by a 13% state income tax. Those of us who work for ourselves are slapped with all 13% of the Social Security tax on the first hundred thou and the Obamunists are talking about eliminating the cap on that so it would apply to all income. Add to that the 'self employment tax' which goes to Medicare. The City Of los Angeles sees fit to treat every free-lancer as though they were a corporation like Chevron and adds a nice little bite to the mix.The state tax on purchases is 10%. Property taxes were fixed at 1% of the last purchase price but bonds have added another two-thirds of a percent and remember that a run-down shack around here sold for $750k up to a couple of years ago. There are extra taxes on phones, garbage collection and a raft of other necessary services. We are at the taxation levels of serfs in the middle ages. Capital is fleeing, investment is at zero in this state. Now the Obamunists are calculating how much of a carbon tax they need to fix the weather...sounds expensive. This adding on to a state scheme at Climate Control. With phony Fed-created money flooding into the system $500k salaries will be earned by greeters at Wal-Mart, if the New Economy allows Wal-Mart to continue to exist. All the government pensions and transfer payments are indexed for inflation; tax brackets are not. The people who voted for taxing the rich are in for a BIG surprise very soon...

Adam| 4.15.09 @ 11:00AM

Hey Melvin. There's another country where women die of advanced breast cancer and old people are sent home to die. Except in the country I'm thinking of, these sick people are not treated not because there isn't enough resources available to treat them, but simply because they can't AFFORD the treatment. Most of us here in the USA would glad, wholeheartedly accept socialized medicine because it's the only way we can get treated. You tell me whats worse: Turning an elderly sick person away because there are limited resources and it's more important to save a 40 year old man with young children than a 75 year old who lives alone? Or turning away that same 75 year old man because he can't pay for the treatment?

Oh yeah socialized medicine...terrible. Our system is so much better. Especially in terms of morality.

2Anglico| 4.15.09 @ 11:05AM

If only "households" earning above $100,000 (that would include 2 teachers, not "rich" by any stretch of the imagination) were polled, the results would be far, far different. A random sample of "Americans" includes a whole bunch of people who pay ZERO Federal Income Tax.
Income tax is also immoral. Not that it matters.

Melvin | 4.15.09 @ 11:05AM

No one in this Country is denied medical treatment whatsoever. Go to an Emergency Room you will not be turned away, you will be seen.
Your argument doesn't wash junior try again.

Jack | 4.15.09 @ 11:06AM

Melvin,

I can't put my company on my back and move to the mountains of Montana. Who would buy my labels? Someone needs to educate us folks on how best to minimize income to avoid being in the target class. Minimize and obstruct transfer payments whenever and wherever we can.
I do want to pay for my country's defense. That is what I ask of my government.

ARealisit| 4.15.09 @ 11:07AM

The problem with the income tax is that is encourages profligacy and waste.
The USA sends billions of dollars overseas in foreign aid; this includes places like Pakistan, Egypt, etc.
Foreign aid has not garnered the USA one bit of good will, or, when really needed, real assistance.
As for domestic programs, I will just speculate that if you pick any spending program that you really do like, about 30% of that is just wasted.
We have military bases and troops all over the world that we cannot afford to have.
We have a navy plying the seas all over the world we cannot afford.
We have defended Europe - at out expense - for over 50 years; courtesy of the American taxpayer.
Why the hell can't they defend themselves ??
And worse of all we have citizens of this country who, through mere jealousy and resentment have no qualms about taxing the "rich."
(By the way, I am not rich).
When the income tax system was instituted in 1913, it was no coincidence that we the USA soon found ourselves in WWI and II; Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I and II, and about 20 or so "minor but savage wars of peace."
If you actually look at the real results - not merely good intentions - of MOST of the federal programs that cost billions, almost NONE of them have achieved their objective or solved the problem they were intended to solve.
Of course, when the problem remains unsolved after billions of dollars, the hue and cry begins that "well, we just need to spend more money."
It NEVER ENDS.
As for DEE, who has no problem with taxing OTHER people, whom she defines as rich, you need to ask yourself why is the cost of living so expensive in the NE ??
Is it because state/city/county workers can all retire after 20 years with inflation adjusted retirement benefits and medical insurance; courtesy of the taxpayers WHO HAVE TO WORK FOR 40 YEARS TO PAY THE BENEFITS OF THOSE WHO, BY UNION COERCION, ARE SO DAMN GREEDY THAT THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM FORCING OTHERS TO PAY FOR THEIR RETIREMENT.
Yep, I know a municipal union employee who will retire - at age 45 !!! - and the rest of his life receive INFLATION ADJUSTED benefits COURTESY OF EVERYONE ELSE WHO MUST CONTINUE WORKING. (a relative of mine).
Dee, once you accept that 300K incomes should be heavily taxed, the day WILL COME when someone else decides that 50K incomes should be heavily taxed.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the power to tax is the power to control.
Economic freedom cannot be separated from individual freedom.
At least rich folks spend money which creates jobs for many other people. The govt. creates and produces nothing. They are a parasites and the money they confiscate from hard working Americans is mostly wasted and used to support the re-election campaigns of our mostly dishonest, corrupt, crooked, thieving politicians.
Dee, you need to ask yourself WHY are things so expensive in the NE, why are medical costs so expensive, why do so many things cost so much, why do 1 in 10 working Americans work For the govt. , whose salaries and benefits are paid for by the rest of us.
As for Social Security it is the largest Ponzi scam in the world and everybody knows it. There has not been a SS "trust fund" in about 50 years, by the way.
So much for our politicians "taking care of things."
Politicians only take care of themselves at taxpayer expense, and they screw EVERYBODY else.
Folks like DEE have no problem giving these thieves and crooks her tax dollars.

I do.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 11:09AM

Melvin you think an emergency room visit is gonna cure cancer? Of course no one can be turned away in an emergency room. Everybody knows that.

EyesWideOpen| 4.15.09 @ 11:13AM

<
I think that as bad as the tax burden is, the real focus should be on the out-of-control spending that is done at all government levels.
America needs to rethink what responsibilities the government should have. Too much control requires too much spending.
>

Melvin| 4.15.09 @ 11:16AM

The emergency room doctor if he or she determines that they suspect cancer, they refer the patient up the medical chain to a specialist in the many University Hospitals as in North Carolina where I live where they give what they call "charity care" where is the patient is treated for the malady.
Also their are many free hospitals such as the Shriners and denominational hospitals that give free care to those chronic cases of cancer, and other advanced life threatening diseases to those who are unable to pay.
My point is valid junior no one is denied health care even for cancer in this Country.

Skep41 | 4.15.09 @ 11:17AM

NOTE TO ADAM
"France's tax code includes 100% free health care, 5 weeks paid vacation per year for ALL citizens who work full time regardless of their job (Even fast food flingers get their 5 weeks a year) VASTLY cheaper higher education and, of course, 100% free healthcare."

France has a twenty percent unemployment rate. Their economy is shrinking. New investment is non-existent. Their birthrate is at half the rate needed for replacement and the country is being flooded with immigrants with a much higher birthrate and total contempt for the French nation. The entire Euro zone is collapsing because of the same policies you enlightened social engineers are in the process of installing here. There was a heat wave in France three years ago. 15,000 people died because the people who worked for the 'totally free healthcare' system you so admire were on vacation and the skeleton crews left behind couldnt be bothered. The same heat wave killed thousands in Britain and the Netherlands BTW. No one lost their jobs, there were no consequences. Socialism. Keep spouting your anti-wealth rhetoric and enjoy the wave of hyper-inflation you Obamunists are generating because it will put you into the category of the truly wealthy (for taxation purposes). And stop talking about the 'Bush Deficit'. That piddly little $250 billion was ONE TENTH of the deficit the Obamunists have managed to pile up in three months, and they havent even begun to appropriate.

I Bleed Obama Blue| 4.15.09 @ 11:21AM

It is because they feel they are getting good value for their money that 51% of Americans say their tax burden is "fair" or "too low". This value proposition includes good quality, timely public services, protection of person & property, safe (for the most part) food, clean air & water, workplace & product safety, etc.

wado| 4.15.09 @ 11:23AM

To the posters who think it's great to live in France, because as one said at least if you had a heart attack because of high tax rates the free health care could save your life. To that two points 1. There is no such thing as free, someone has to pay. 2. Who would want to wake up and live in a quasi socialist country. I'd rather just die

Joe| 4.15.09 @ 11:26AM

Your slightly wrong. The people rebellion over 27 items of which taxation was only #17. Yes they were upset but by other times more. Please read the declaration of Independence again. As for fair taxes, you are right, we are over taxed to keep them in office. However, I think Dave Matthews, Obama and Biden are under taxed.

Adam| 4.15.09 @ 11:26AM

Ok Melvin...I'll bite I guess. If there is all this free healthcare readily available and easy to get then....wait for it....waaaaaaaiiiit fooooor iiiiiitttttt...Why does anyone pay for insurance then? If everything is totally free and we dont HAVE to pay then why do we? Ohh that's right...because there's 47 million americans who can't afford insurance clogging up all these mystical free health clinics in your fantasy world.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 11:34AM

The tax rates corporate media giant Fox News and a handful of their viewers are protesting were passed under George W. Bush and a Congress with significant Republican representation. (At least it's fair to say there's representation with the taxation.)

Whom are these protest targeting? Obama? Obama's policies are not yet in place. The most significant changes in tax rates are for those earning more than 250,000 a year. These changes leave tax rates LOWER than they were under Ronald Reagan.

Please remind me.... What's all the fuss?

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 11:51AM

If you think "health care" is expensive now, wait until it's free.

Skep41 | 4.15.09 @ 11:53AM

TRUTH HURTS
The fuss is about the trillion-dollar doondoggle giveaway that got passed labeled 'stimulus' that was just a giveaway to political cronies. The fuss is about the enemic Bush tax cuts which are now being replaced with outright confiscation of income, the fuss is about the Fed flooding the market with money lent to banks at zero percent interest which will devalue the currency, the fuss is about forbidding the extraction of fossil fuels while the government spends hundreds of billions subsidizing worthless green technology, the fuss is from those of us who have lived in Europe and watched the disaster of 'free' health care kill thousands, the fuss is about laying heavy 'carbon taxes' on an already overtaxed country to fix the non-existent problem of global warming, the fuss is about forcing people to belong to unions which spend our dues to support the democratic party, the fuss is about public employee unions with pension plans that pay them eighty percent of their salaries at age 50 and are indexed for inflation. I could go on but you obviously are one of the employees that the Obamunists assign to heckle conservative comment threads o I wont bother.

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 11:53AM

Hey Truth,

If Obama agrees to lower the top rate to 28%, we'd be much happier.

15%, and we'd be happy.

The idea is to allow people to keep more of what they earn, but Obama isn't interested in that. He thinks everyone would be better off if we "spread the wealth around", which means those that earn it give it to those that don't.

Adam| 4.15.09 @ 11:55AM

Hey Skept41,

"France has a twenty percent unemployment rate. Their economy is shrinking. New investment is non-existent. "
You might have noticed the global recession going on right now.

"Their birthrate is at half the rate needed for replacement and the country is being flooded with immigrants with a much higher birthrate and total contempt for the French nation."

The country is being flooded by muslims with total contempt for non-muslims you mean. I'm pretty sure our country is being flooded with mexicans who have no respect for American and wish to abuse it's plutocratic policies by providing cheap labor for the wealthy. So we and France have that same problem there.

"Keep spouting your anti-wealth rhetoric and enjoy the wave of hyper-inflation you Obamunists are generating because it will put you into the category of the truly wealthy (for taxation purposes). And stop talking about the 'Bush Deficit'. That piddly little $250 billion was ONE TENTH of the deficit the Obamunists have managed to pile up in three months, and they havent even begun to appropriate."

Hyper inflation couldn't possibly make my salary be considered rich for tax purposes or any other. You don't understand how that works. Rich people love to say stuff like that. "oh someday they wont be able to tax us anymore and they'll have to tax you more!" Umm no they won't. Because if it got to that point things would be so bad that taxes wouldn't be able to solve it. That's how little money the other 90% of americans make. 50% of 30 grand is 15k. 50% of 300k is 150k. So you can tax 1 person half his money and still leave him with 10 times the money as an average person or you can tax 10 average people to the point where they can't feed thier kids anymore? What do you think would happen if our government did that? Look up the French Revolution. Which part of the guillotine do you think you'll be seeing with your "save the wealthy" attitude and your Nobama sticker on your Lexus?

Lastly the Obama spending, as horrible as it is, is a direct result of 8 years of Bush's Republican policies. This is apparently the only way pull our country of the ditch Bush and congress and whoever else was in charge over the last 8 years drove it into.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 11:55AM

Blue Bleeder says, "It is because they feel they are getting good value for their money that 51% of Americans say their tax burden is "fair" or "too low"." Of course, 40% of Americans pay ZERO income tax. If I paid zero, I'd think it was fair or too low, also.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 12:00PM

On the wall of the small clinic in our town is a sign. It says if you cannot pay for health care you are still entitled to receive it. The same LAW applies to all hospitals in the state, and in every state I've ever lived in. Over a quarter of patients in our town are illegal aliens. They receive the same care as everyone else for nothing. If you can pay for care and just can't be bothered to get medical insurance, you will definitely pay. Yet Adam says, "...mystical free health clinics in your fantasy world. .."

I'm on the board. Don't bother to argue that this isn't true.

Louis Jenkins| 4.15.09 @ 12:00PM

If we were paid in cash by our employers, then went to the next window and paid our Federal taxes (in cash), then to the next window and paid our State taxes (in cash), then paid all the additional subtractions (in cash) at yet another window, all workers would be mad as Hell to physically hand over almost half of their income to governmental agencies prior to buying groceries. But we are not allowed to handle the cash, in fact, most payrolls are directly deposited to personal banking accounts. We never see the cash!! What a brilliant scam!! April 15th-‘bend over and grab your ankles day’ so that your wealth may be shared. KY is an additional 1%.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 12:04PM

Can some conservative define the word "earn" for me?

For example take the case of two men. One man is mechanic and another man is an investment banker. Both men are hard workers each putting in over 50 hours a week. Both men are considered to be among the best in their field within their home state and are well respected at thier companies. Yet the investment banker makes a million dollars a year after taxes and the mechanic pulls in about 50k a year. Why doesn one guy make 20 times more money than the other person, yet they both put in the exact same amount of effort each day?

This is not a flip question. I'm really interested in hearing the answer because it's an important question we all need to ask ourselves in today's society.

Shotgunplanet| 4.15.09 @ 12:10PM

I am so mad right now... why did I read this? I knew it would upset me but...I feel a sense of awakening outrage and that gives me comfort. But nothing like the feeling of comfort when the political class are answering to us again not DICTATING!

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 12:13PM

Tax Day Tea Party Roundup | The Smoking Argus/ links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…I might add, insists that 6 in 10 people feel they are fairly taxed. Andrew Cline of The American Spectator justifiably points out the absurdity of fair taxation in his article claiming It’s Way Past Tea Party Time. What so many Americans are calling “fair” is often between 20 percent and 45 percent of their income — not including taxes on capital gains, interest and other…

shotgunplanet| 4.15.09 @ 12:14PM

Adam, who is to stop the mechanic from becoming the banker if he wants to "earn" that million? Your logic is socialists and I think you know it... That political system is a proven failure... if you don't think so... look at the USSR & Cuba.

chuck| 4.15.09 @ 12:15PM

Adam, simple, some jobs require more education, skill, and knowledge then others. Would you expect someone digging a ditch to make the same amount as a heart surgeon? If so, when your bleeding heart needs work on it, go ask the ditch digger to do it for minimum wage.

Skep41 | 4.15.09 @ 12:18PM

ADAM
The mechanic cut school and flunked his courses. The investment banker got straight A's and spent a lot of time doing unpaid extra work that increased his skill level. A mechanic has to look in the classified ads to get his job which he will keep for a long time. An investment banker has to go through university and grad school and then work his way up through a competitive corporate structure which eliminates 95% of its aspirants. An investment banker has very little job security. Once you fairness freaks eliminate all investment (unearned income, dont you know) and strip the investment banker of his livelihood the mechanic will lose his job as well.

Jarad| 4.15.09 @ 12:26PM

It's absolutely amazing to me how people are so easily duped into wealth envy and class warfare.

If someone makes 300k a year, 50k a year, or 1 million a year, it's NONE OF YOUR or the GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS! Unless a law has been broken of course. . . but that's not what those on the left are really concerned about. If it were up to them, there would be laws on the books making it illegal for someone to make more than x amount of dollars a year.

Al | 4.15.09 @ 12:27PM

Hi Adam,
What one earns is not determined only by how "hard" or long one works. In a free market, it is mostly determined by supply and demand. There is a smaller supply of people who have the skills to be a good investment banker. There is a greater number of people who are good mechanics, and a far greater number of people who can sweep floors and flip burgers. No type of work is inherently demeaning if it is voluntary; its just that some types have more people who can do them. In many areas, sanitation workers who collect the garbage earn higher wages than those doing similarly unskilled labor, because fewer people are willing to get up that early and do that job. People can demand greater pay according to the supply of their skill, and the demand for it. There is varying demand for certain goods, services, or skills, which determines the price or salary. This is why sports stars and movie stars, and good investment bankers, can demand such high pay.
In a free market, you don't have to pay anyone or work for anyone; people find that balance between what they are willing to do or pay for, at what price or salary.

The alternative is to have central planners ("elites" be they feudal lords, corporatists, or communists) tell us what they think things should cost, etc.

Free markets will always be crippled by those who seek to manipulate, cheat, steal, etc, so what is described above is how it's supposed to work, but not how it always does. That does not discredit the system. It simply shows that capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the other systems ever tried.

shotgunplanet| 4.15.09 @ 12:32PM

Adam... So because Bush spent way too much of OUR money... Obamanot should spend 3 times as much? Like saying... if the boat is sinking add more water to the hold... what government school did you attend?

ge205| 4.15.09 @ 12:33PM

What gets me is why are you people complaining NOW?
Government and deficit spending was increasing every year under George Bush. Yet, Republicans were not complaining.
Hey, I asked my Republican friends if they were worried about the deficits. They shrugged their shoulders and said no.
I argued with them that sooner or later, taxes will have to go up to pay for the deficits, and for the growing entitlements such as social security and medicaid. And I also warned them that someday, the US will be in another recession, and that will make the taxes even worse.
But Republicans did not care. Everything was going great before 2006. Republicans were chatting "Four More Years" for Bush's re-election.
Yeah, taxes will be going up. I won't like it. I don't like paying all the taxes that I have to pay. But the US had bad policies for eight years, and now it is time to face the music.
Sorry, but all of you should have seen this coming years ago.

One other thing...when REAL FISCAL CONSERVATIVES form their own political party, let me know. I'll probably support it.

Warrior | 4.15.09 @ 12:35PM

Adam:

I generally do not post, but read comments all the time. Your posts interest me.

If the mechanic would like to make a million, he should open his own business and use his skills to find success. Bill Gates is a college dropout. Jobs if I remember right built his first computer in his garage. The FedEx business plan received an "F" in a college business course because the professor found it be an unrealistic business model, the first McDonald's, Starbucks, etc. and so forth. But I digress. Let's assume the mechanic opened his own garage and was a stunning success. Now he hires three other mechanics and a receptionist. Shouldn't the other mechanics and receptionist make as much as the business owner? I'm trying to see it your way with great difficulty. Should the other employees become a millionaire off the risk and efforts of the business owner?

Work with me here.

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 12:39PM

To Adam,

How many guys can be mechanics vs. how many guys can be investment managers? If they both make the same salary, who would want to put in the 100 hour weeks for 8-10 years to become an investment banker. In the real world, we don't all get to follow our dreams and become poets. We balance our talents, willingness to pay dues, wants, needs, responsibilities, and yes even greed, and sell ourselves to the highest bidder. You have made your decision and are paid according to what your employer thinks you are worth. In America, doctors are not "better" than cab drivers, but you can't honestly think their skills equally valuable. And even if you do, are you so important that you should be the one to set all prices?

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 12:41PM

Wow! Everybody had that one covered.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 12:44PM

"Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 12:00PM
On the wall of the small clinic in our town is a sign. It says if you cannot pay for health care you are still entitled to receive it. The same LAW applies to all hospitals in the state, and in every state I've ever lived in. Over a quarter of patients in our town are illegal aliens. They receive the same care as everyone else for nothing. If you can pay for care and just can't be bothered to get medical insurance, you will definitely pay. Yet Adam says, "...mystical free health clinics in your fantasy world. .."

I'm on the board. Don't bother to argue that this isn't true. "

Everyone has seen those signs. Those signs are if you have to go to the hospital. That means if you collapse because you are dying and are taken to the emergency room they are legally obligated to do everything possible to save your life regardless of age, sex, financial status, religion ect, ect. Once you are stabilized then they politely tell you to get the f out unless you have insurance. They might send you home with a couple pain pills and a prescription for more and that's where the legal obligation ends. Pharmacies dispense medication, not hospitals. Pharmacies only take cash, checks or credit cards. There's not foodstamps for prescriptions. When you need 500 dollars a month in medications to be able to even feel well enough to work are you telling me that your little clinic is happy to pay that expense for anyone? Please.

Which board do you work for? Harvard Pilgrim? lol

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 12:51PM

No foodstamps. I guess we'll have to call it something else. Should probably have Medic in it somewhere and maybe Aide as well.

Indiana Alex| 4.15.09 @ 1:00PM

The biggest difference between the wall street investment banker and the mechanic is that now Obama controls the income of the investment banker while the mechanic is free to earn whatever the market will bear.

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 1:26PM

The Quantum Conservative » Blog Archive » Tax Day Tea Party Stuf links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…like that is the right amount. * Tax Receipts Plummet as Americans “Go Galt”, by Tom Blumer. * They Did It For You, Now Do It For Them, by Bill Whittle * Revolution Rekindled, by Jeff Emanuel * It’s Way Past Tea Party Time, by Andrew Cline For what it’s worth, I’m not usually a protest-attending sort of guy. Most of the time I’m too busy working, writing, or spending time with my lovely bride-to-be…

Gabe| 4.15.09 @ 1:36PM

40% of people in this country don't pay taxes. The middle class and the rich are the ones that are squeezed to death to pay for entitlments, and welfare, not to mention the soaring debt. Politcians may talk of fairness, but they can vote themselves a raise every year. They can vote tax raises on whoever they want and disregard the Constitution. This goes way beyond parties and to the heart of what we want America to be.

NavyBrat| 4.15.09 @ 1:44PM

Yes, I'm a 30 year old young conservative who will, for a time, benefit from this supposed tax cut, because I have no tax liability. I WILL, however, be making considerably more this next year, as I've gotten an executive chef job after 10 years of blood, sweat, & toil in fine dinning kitchens as a galley slave. Now, because I will have "arrived" at the top of my career (minus OWNING my own place), I can look forward to being bled dry for all of my hard work because this government subscribes to the Marx theory of "From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs."

I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKING MONEY!!! I WANT TO MAKE MY OWN & FOR YOU PUKES TO LET ME KEEP MORE OF IT!!! These fools in Congress wouldn't last a SINGLE dinner service in my restaurant. They don't know the meaning of hard work. Anyone who doubts how tough it is, read Kitchen Confiedntial by Anthony Bourdain. As for these confiscatory taxes to support societal leeches, & the increase in those taxes to support an increase in the welfare state, to hell with them. The reckoning is coming, Congress. You fools better listen up before you suddenly find yourselves on the golf course & writing your idiotic memoirs.

"To tax the community for the advantage of a class is not protection, it is plunder."...Benjamin Disraeli

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessarries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds... [we will] have no time to think, no means for calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for [another]... til the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."...Thomas Jefferson

adam| 4.15.09 @ 1:45PM

Most of you didnt answer the question.

Al gave the best response. I happen to agree with many of his points in fact, especially the famous qoute about capitalism. I prefer " The problem with Capitalism is it's the best economic system humans have come up with so far."

Al also correctly identified my point. He correctly pointed out that the word "earn" in our society is often used in place of the word "got" or "recieved" when discussing a person's wage. I would point out that aquiring the skills and education which make an individual a "good investment banker" are vastly easier to aquire for those who are wealthy already and can actually afford it. Perhaps our mechanic friend has the skills to be an investment banker but his daddy died when he was 11 and his mom didnt have a college education so he couldnt afford to go to college.

Many investment bankers, much as we have seen lately, feel that they not only earned the enormous bonuses they were being given, but that they in fact DESERVED them and, even more astonishingly, deserve MORE!

The main problem with capitalism is, and you don't wanna hear it but here goes: it is not a wealth distribution system. Capitalism is a wealth concentration system. In a capitalist system, money attacts more money. The more you have, the more you CAN potentially have. The less you have, the less you can potentially make. There are always the wonderful stories Americans like to tell about "opportunity" and how "anyone can make it." If that were the case then Obama becoming the first black president should have been a rather pedestrian accomplishment eh? No we tell these stories because , well because our teachers told us about them in school. And our parents told us we could be anything we wanted when we grew up but now we all know that just isn't the case is it? In this country the rich have always been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer. Modern technology has allowed us to feel as if we are in some way wealthy, but we are just as poor to the top 5% wealthiest people in this country as are most sub-saharan african people are compared to us. We look at countries like Ethiopia and Somalia and shake our heads at the corrution and abuse in thier political system but the reality is the that our leaders are just as bad but they use corporate tax loopholes, free markets and the two party political system to make people believe that aything but than the rampant abuse of our tax dollars for personal gain is thier goal. Our political system is being corrupted and used for the personal gain of those within it and those in charge of the wealthy corporations that finance thier election campaigns. Money and political power are being passed down in our capitalist society just as surely as in the old feudal systems that Al described. recent elections have shown neopotism at it's finest aka, Caroline Kennedy and Bo Biden and of course the kind retard of them all, W. Then it was God and Blood that chose a king. Today it is dollars and favors.

The "free market" should be changed to the "probation market" for a good long time. It claims to be reformed but every time we look away it seems to steal a whole bunch of money from tons of average americans and then set fire the house.

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 1:55PM

83% of Americans Want Tax Cuts Now - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…up my feelings on this tax issue - how we have become so willing to accept this ever increasing cumberson tax burden to feed the inept and wasteful machinery that is government: The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Sponsored links Remove advertisements US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum Advertisement Lower Navigation US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US…

adam| 4.15.09 @ 1:55PM

Hey Brian. This is from medicaid's official website.

Medicaid does not provide medical assistance for all people with limited incomes and resources. Even under the broadest provisions of the Federal statute (except for emergency services for certain persons), the Medicaid program does not provide health care services for everyone. You must qualify for Medicaid. Low-income is only one test for Medicaid eligibility; assets and resources are also tested against established thresholds.

Some estimates have the amount of uninsured americans ineligible for medicaid at half. So your medicaid comment has forced me to, at best, concede 23.5 million out of 47 million uninsured people. Still what? 8% of the population with no healthcare whatsoever though.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 1:58PM

Your original post was about women with breast cancer being sent home to die and old people turned away because they can't pay for treatment. Then when this was untenable, you switched to someone who wasn't able to get a prescription. Did your first examples no longer work in the light of what really happens in America's hospitals and clinics?

If you want a perfect system, you certainly won't find it in the US-- or anywhere else. The realities of the Canadian and British systems would be unacceptable to most Americans on Medicaid, let alone ones with private insurance. That's the reality. If you want to improve our system, fine-- but private enterprise is more likely to fix it than government bureaucrats. Bureaucrats have a very poor track record in fixing anything.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 2:02PM

Why is an investment banker paid twenty times what a mechanic is paid for the same hours and degree of dedication? Because of the rarity of the skills and abilities of a good investment banker. Or do you think it's some kind of conspiracy that only investment bankers are in on? Sports figures make enormous multiples of the average wage, yet they are not noticeably harder working or brighter than the average mechanic. They can, however, throw that ball so much better that people will pay them for the privilege of watching them do it. It's called the free market.

My own profession doesn't pay that well, although it requires a Master's degree. I have a doctorate besides, and make about what a very good mechanic makes. Am I ignorant? no. Am I exploited? No. Could I have become an investment banker? Probably. But I CHOSE to do something I loved to do, knowing that it was not going to make me rich. That's what our system is about.

Steve| 4.15.09 @ 2:07PM

Adam, your view that all deserve equal results is terribly simple. Please use your time to rethink your positions on life and the fairness you believe is owed to all.
What makes you think one man's needs allow the taking of another man's property?

libertyville| 4.15.09 @ 2:11PM

I reject government of the government, by the government and for the government.

Think First| 4.15.09 @ 2:14PM

Adam,

Any system has good and bad points. Capitalism is the best so far but the problem is you're not seeing capitalism right now. We are much closer to socialism and the victim mentality it generates than anything resembling free markets. The original intent of a free market is to guarantee everyone the equal opportunity to succeed.

Yes someone from a rich family may have a leg up at first by having his pick of schools and training to have a chance to be one. However what is not addressed by that answer is all that schooling will not guarantee his success. If he does not clearly demonstrate his abilities, he will be gone. The worst part of most of the irritation people feel right now is a lot of these CEO's and other leaders of companies are not being called on the carpet for putting their companies at risk, losing money or outright incompetence.

It happens in a free society. However if all as you say is true then someone like Bill Gates would not exist. Or Steve Jobs. What you are saying is merely the generalized idea that the wealthy have an unfair advantage. That's true because someone earlier in their families history worked their butts off to give their family that advantage. In a socialist society that could not happen unless you were one of the elite.

It's easy to say life is unfair, the odds are stacked against you, whine, whine, whine. It's much harder to take responsibility and do something about it. I work in a convenience store. How do these down and out people work to improve their lives? By buying lottery tickets, drinking beer and buying junk food. Then complaining loudly they have no money for a decent car, new TV, or better place to stay. Saving money, trimming expenses or any other readily available ways to improve themselves doesn't enter the picture. I am taking classes to improve myself and get out. They only complain they don't get more benefits.

WSJ, universities and many other studies have shown that 93% of today's millionaires came from humble beginnings. Started their own companies and succeeded. I also see many complaints of business people but none of actors, professional athletes or politicians. Howard Raines and Jamie Gorelick received over 120 miliion dollars in bonuses for running Fannie and Freddie into the dirt and are responsible for perpetrating fraud by cooking the books. Yet they are celebrated. Dodd and Frank resisted any and all investigations into their shady dealings.

Can you name a George Lucas from Russia? Would Industrial Light and Magic even exist in Cuba?

Didn't think so.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 2:14PM

Skep41 --

Again, what were wrong with the tax rates for the wealthy that prevailed under Reagan and Clinton?

Were you wealthy during those years? Were the rates so confiscatory they merit the epithet "socialist"?

Under Eisenhower, the top rates were close to 90%. They're considerably lower than that now.

What is it exactly that you want? No taxes at all?

The Democrats are indeed the "tax and spend" party. But at least there's some integrity in that. Republicans, who honk and bray about taxes all the livelong day, are content to be the "borrow and spend" party, never having once reduced the size of government in modern history.

Look: I appreciate a strong conservative critique of government and tax policy. We need it. It's a fundamentally healthy thing to have around.

But these "tea parties" seem to me somewhat disingenuous. They're target are policies that were signed into law by a Republican president, yet they only name Obama as responsible for the policies of which they disapprove.

I'm not accusing anyone of being evil or wrong. But I don't see the principle at stake.

When Republicans were borrowing money from China and spending it like drunken sailors, greatly adding to the debt, where were you?

Back then, it was considered seditious treason to utter a word of criticism against Bush.

As of now, 40% of the national debt (that's FORTY, almost half) accrued since the beginning of our history was acquired during the administrations of Reagan and the two Bushes.

It seems to me Democrats have become more responsible than they once were about spending, and when they took over Congress they reinstated the "pay as you go" rules the Republicans trashed when they took over.

Once it was the Republicans who could lecture us about fiscal responsibility. After the last eight years, those days are over. That is, until you come up with something other than wild, stupid claims about Democrats being communists.

JMJ| 4.15.09 @ 2:16PM

Well today there are supposed to be many teabag rallies across the country. They are getting together to protest reckless government spending or the large deficits the Obama administration is racking up implementing their policy. My only question is this: where were these people 8 years ago? More importantly, where were these people 30 years ago?

Under Reagan, the budget was never balanced and debt ballooned. In fact, under Reagan the total debt/GDP ratio increased from a little over 30% to a little over 60%. Yet there were no protests. And the fact the budget was never balanced didn't seem to bother anybody. Of course, you could argue that the current teabaggers weren't around then so this doesn't count.

But when Bush took office the exact same thing happened. According to the Cato Institute, the Republican Party became the "Grand Old Spending Party." Bush was the biggest spender since LBJ. Here is what the Cato Institute wrote:

President Bush has presided over the largest overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon B. Johnson. Even after excluding spending on defense and homeland security, Bush is still the biggest-spending president in 30 years. His 2006 budget doesn't cut enough spending to change his place in history, either.

Total government spending grew by 33 percent during Bush's first term. The federal budget as a share of the economy grew from 18.5 percent of GDP on Clinton's last day in office to 20.3 percent by the end of Bush's first term.

The Republican Congress has enthusiastically assisted the budget bloat. Inflation-adjusted spending on the combined budgets of the 101 largest programs they vowed to eliminate in 1995 has grown by 27 percent.

Yet there were no protests. And here is a report from the Bureau of Public Debt of the annual federal debt outstanding at the end of the last 8 federal fiscal years:

09/30/2008 $10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 $9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86

To anyone with an ounce of common sense, it's obvious what's going on. Republican/conservative rank and file are protesting because they are out of power and their leadership is terrible. But they aren't protesting spending; they are protesting the Democratic Party's governance. And that is fine. But please, don't tell me it's about spending or debt. If that were the case, you guys should have taken to the streets years ago.

Pingback| 4.15.09 @ 2:17PM

“Fairness” of Taxes Is and Should be An Issue « Peace and Freedom Global Future links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…is Washington’s gradual convincing of the American people that giving so much of their income to the government is just and fair. By Andrew Cline American Spectator http://spectator.org/archives/200 9/04/15/its-way-past-tea-party-time Michelle Malkin: http://michellemalkin.com/2009/0 4/15/a-tax-day-tea-party-cheat-sh eet-how-it-all-started/ This entry was posted on April 15, 2009 at 6:17 pm and is filed…

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 2:24PM

Ok, wind this back a little bit. Adam, you were right in the first place, but your acquiesence to Melvin's blank arguments turned this thread into something it shouldn't have been. No one dies from want of coverage in England or Canada. 75 year olds are not asked to give up their beds for want of space, cancer patient are not refused treatment when their illnesses are too far gone, it doesn't happen that's a lie. Their wait times are shorter, their drugs are cheaper, their services are more immediate and available to everyone. If you want to see my NHS card I still have it from the two years I spent in the UK. It's a lie, stop parroting it.

The reason that so many died in that heat wave was a lack of air conditioning. The homes in Europe are old and cannot be fitted with central air, many people do not use individual AC units simply because it isn't in their culture. Most of the people who died were elderly and were not found until they were dead; I remember I was in Italy that summer Florence was 100 degrees. It had nothing to do with the health care systems.

France's! Ah that arrogant bastion of socialism that fueled this country's indepdence, Proudhon and the like. It might interest you to know that the French unemployment rate is lower than that of the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate , the numbers are from the CIA world Factbook 2008. Not that unemployment rates are necessarily indicative of a higher quality of life, development, or freedom. The idea that Western Europe is being overrun by muslims and Africans and south Asians because of lax immigration laws is also wide of the mark, only 4% of the French population is Muslim and the birth rate is 2.02, as of now.

This is the country where you have to choose between bankruptcy and health care. I distribute medicaid at the county assistance office in West Philadelphia, it doesn't pay well and it sucks, but hey it's a job and unemployment is higher than it is in France so, anyway. I've denied people with liver failure and cut the insurance of people with heart disease, all because they were receiving 800 unemployment monthly or wanted to work and earned 600 dollars monthly. The income thresholds are murderously low. And yeah, you can walk into an ER wihout insurance and get a broken leg set and run away, but you can't go to your local pharmacy and run away with the Lipitor that you need, or get an MRI when that back pain becomes another animal.

Lastly, to Melvin: You must be one of the stupidest people to ever string a sentence together, your only argumentative basis is heresay and conjecture without the slightest bit of investigation, critical thought, or self-reflection. Go to your tea party, I sincerely hope that you're from Southeastern PA and will be attending the one at Independence Hall on Saturday, cause I'll be there counter protesting.

You are apologists for your own oppressors.

Warrior | 4.15.09 @ 2:27PM

Adam, you cherry pick your arguments. How much money did Bill Gates start with? For that matter, how about Famous Amos, William Jefferson Clinton, Stephen King, Mark Cuban, George Soros, and Warren Buffett to start a list.

JeffW| 4.15.09 @ 2:32PM

Adam,
Please show me the source of your info that said life was fair? Or that you are owed something simply because some lucky sperm made it to fertilize that egg and you were born? Life is a struggle, the goverment is not the answer, they are a neccessary evil. I help my fellow man whenever I can, so should you. Not the goverment. And by the way, there are programs out there people can qualify for for reduced or even free prescriptions.

Tom| 4.15.09 @ 2:36PM

Adam;

Actually, part of the high cost of health care is that most people with breast cancer (to use the current example) are NOT turned away. They are treated, and treated well. When they don't pay, the health care providers in question raise their prices.

The corollary to "free health care" is that health care and associated service providers MUST provide their services absolutely free of charge. How many folks do you know who will spend the quarter of a million it costs to get the education required to excel in a specialty?

In your thirst for parity, ask yourself whether you'd do all that for free.

Why does "fair" always equate to "pay what I tell you"? Why is it not "fair", since you are so concerned, to set up a 501c with like-minded contributors and start a health-care "cartel" to provide care for those who can't afford it? Why do you insist that it's only "fair" if you force EVERYONE to do it?

Gumption up and do it yourself. Be a leader. You won't, though.

It's far easier to tell others what to do.

Jack | 4.15.09 @ 2:43PM

Adam, I teach a Junior Acheivement class to 1st graders. You would not believe how intuitive their concept of fairplay is. Part of our series covers "Our families Jobs" where we discuss jobs,(work that needs to be done). These first graders understand and see it as fair that if you want to be a nurse and make $80,000/year you need to go to school for 16 years and make good grades. If you want to work as a mechanic, you really do need to complete 12 years of school but you also understand that the Nurse will earn more. They see this as imminently fair. YOU GET WHAT YOU WORK FOR. What happens to people between 1st grade and adulthood. The mechanic doesn't want to study and make good grades but he should be paid what the nurse earns? The nurse should be taxed at a higher rate because she is more "fortunate"?

Tom Devine| 4.15.09 @ 2:45PM

Folks,
I think my taxes are too high (yes, I'm one of the 50% who actually pay taxes).

But, I'll make the governments structure a deal (fed, state, local). Invert the pyramid so that the majority of my taxes are paid to the local government, the next slice to the state and the smallest to the feds and I'll stop complaining and keep working. At least I'll see where my dollars are being spent rather than watch them disappear into the coffers of federal pet projects.

To coin an old phrase, "throw the bums out."

Warrior | 4.15.09 @ 2:47PM

Truth Hurts:

I would like to add that Mr. Obama will exceed the cumulative total of all presidents combined at his current pace. This of course with a complicit congress and senate of both parties, which has been complicit for many years. There are too many Republicans and not enough true conservatives. I would also argue that there are too many Democrats (Progressives) and not enough true liberals. Elected officials are power drunk and we the people need to take the government back from special interests and lobbyists. Unfortunately, these are nice platitudes and serve no real purpose. Kind of like many of the postings on these blogs.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 2:49PM

Quick question, conservatives.

When you say only "50% pay taxes," are you joking?

Income tax is not the only tax. The poor and middle class people pay a great deal of tax -- sales tax, fees, property taxes, etc.

The sob story rich people are telling us -- how strapped they are, how terrible life is because they have to pay for government services they benefit from everyday -- is really low and pathetic, and frankly, I'm sick of it.

Hank Rearden| 4.15.09 @ 2:50PM

Melvin:

I love the way you think, but why just a day, why not a week. If every productive person took a week off some attention would surely be garnered. Combine that with people just refusing to pay their taxes and ZANG you would scare the daylights out of all the moochers and looters put together.

Think First| 4.15.09 @ 2:54PM

Look, Reagan tried many times to cut spending and was overridden at every turn by a democratic congress. Clinton's spending was curtailed only partially by a republican congress. Gingrich was elected and a lot of republicans by their contract with America they later broke many times.

That said I agree with both of you in the sense republicans have shamed themselves and their party by spending more in the last few decades. Their spending however is minute compared to what Obama, Pelosi and Reid are trying to ram down everyone's throat. And most importantly here, it's not just the spending, it's the attempted forcing of socialist policies buried underneath that irks so many and is what has caused the most uproar.

Yes many republicans are as angry at their own party as anyone because none of the current crop of politicians has shown the slightest bit of backbone until it became popular to do so. And that's why so many like me are so angry. We are trying to make it clear to ALL the people in congress and the White House to stop ignoring the people and doing what you want to because you think you know better than we do.

How these people keep getting elected is beyond me and I have no fear of voting them all out and starting over.

And let's be clear here. When Bush and others tried to regulate the housing loans at Fannie and Freddie, to force them to follow accepted standards for mortgages, they were turned away by democrats. The mortgage crisis sits squarely in the laps of those democrats who started the whole thing under Clinton with the community reinvestment act and continued unabated because those republicans didn't have the guts to stand up and call them out publicly. If you watched the hearings, you'll note the major protests against the investigation were all buried under claims of racism and any attempt to regulate and open the books for verification would be admitting you were.

There are no clean hands here. And until we elect people willing to stand up and make a difference, it will not change.

Turth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 2:55PM

Warrior --

I suppose I agree with part of what you say. But if you tune in to these demented rallies, you hear their primary problem is with Obama. Not the president or his policies, but the man, Barack Obama.

I think we all know what's going on here.

Lower middle class and middle class people are hurting, stressed, resentful and fearful.

Traditionally, when white people have felt anxious or fearful about the future, they've been able to say, "Well, at least I've got it better than the black man."

Now here they are, faced with a man who, unlike George W Bush, had no father to put him through school and bail him out of every tight spot he got in, who got himself into the best schools in the country, taught at a top tier law school, got himself elected to state and national office, wrote two best selling books (that made him a multi-millionaire), -- and guess what? He's black. There's no uppity negro more uppity than B. Obama, and I think the Tea Party people know it and can't stand it.

They're protesting policies that BUSH had everything to do with establishing, but they're targeting Obama.

Put simply, folks. I just don't believe you. I think you're saying you're opposed on principle and have a political philosophy, but I just don't believe it. I think you want the uppity negro back in his place.

A Liberatarian Adam| 4.15.09 @ 2:59PM

Adam,

Keep this in mind:

There are 2 types of assests one brings into the job market; Physical and/or Mental assets.

The investment banker primarily uses mental assets (i.e. charts, graphs, economics etc.)

The Mechanic primarily uses physical assets (i.e. tightening screws, replacing carborators etc.)

Bottom line:
Mental assets are simply worth more than physical assets.

Why?
While everyone with an able mind and body are capible of, both, amassing the knowledge to become an investment banker, and learning the trade of the auto mechanic, it simply takes more work over a longer period of time to accumulate the knowledge necessary to become a successful investment banker. This is also work that, one would argue, is harder to do, since it requires using more usage of your brain. Example: An investment banker must use a greater degree of problem solving skills, that are different in any given situation, based on thier extensive knowledge of the ins an outs of economics, whereas the mechanic learns how to change out parts in a car that are basically the same in every instance (side note: I understand all car models and makes are different in thier own right, but a spark plug is always a spark plug). In the end, the mechanic learns one physical set of skills where the banker learns a set of practices and proceedures that apply to a number of different situations.

All in all, The banker makes more because less people have gumption to aquire the knowledge it takes to be successful in that field, therefore, that knowledge is worth more, as it is in all fields that require the use of mental assets.

Brain > Brawn.

The end.

Tom| 4.15.09 @ 2:59PM

Republicans or Conservatives?

Those pointing to the free spending Republicans will get no squabble from me. I used to identify myself as a Republican but burned that card during the W years. I plugged my nose and voted for W over Kerry.

But, don't mistake us Conservatives for Republicans. I live in the South and many Southern Democrats are more Conservative than many Republicans. The issue we have isn't party but rather the role we believe the Federal Government should play in our lives (and for that matter, the lives of others around the globe).

You Dem's shouldn't be blinded by Obama and his media machine as much as we Conservatives should be able to concede the point that the Republicans don't represent us anymore.

The Republicans don't deserve the vote of Conservatives. They held the keys to the kingdom for 8 years and ran up a shameful debt and bloated the federal government. Shame on them.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 2:59PM

Turth hurts, your name is perfect. I had a very painful turth removed just last week.

Your remarks about racism are out and out evil. I doubt there's a single person here who wouldn't vote for a conservative person of whatever race. Why it's racist to oppose the most radical president in the history of the nation is a mystery best known to the leftist moonbat, of which you are one.

Anybody want Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, or Condaleeza Rice for Prez? I thought so.

true american| 4.15.09 @ 3:10PM

If paying 100% in taxes is pure Socialism then why can't we acknowledge that paying 25% in taxes is 25% Socialism?

For the love of god and clarity, why not concede this fact?

I want to belong to a 3'rd party - A CAPITALIST party; one that advocates the principle that the money I earn is 100% my PROPERTY and should be PROTECTED by Government. A party that defends the principle that THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE OF A CAPITALIST GOVERNMENT IS TO PROTECT THE PROPERTY RIGHTS OF ITS CITIZENS. PERIOD. (Taxes go towards the military only.)

Jerry| 4.15.09 @ 3:12PM

The best counterexample to the argument that capitalism stacks the deck against people without access to capital is, of course, the President himself, who seems to have done all right financially without being born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Maybe writing comes easily to him; thus, perhaps its "unfair" that he became rich by writing "Dreams of My Father" - but there it is. It's the darn capitalist way that individualists earn what the market is willing to pay.

My son is in grad school in England this year and he has found long waits for an appointment and, from his perspective, he feels that the NHS is considerably behind the US in terms of quality of care. Having said that, he's never been on Medicaid, so perhaps by comparison to Medicaid and/or indigent care in the US, the NHS is ok.

I am in total agreement with the criticism of the Bush budget deficits of the last 8 years, but I think the response we are seeing today in the form of the tax protests is caused by the very reasonable concern that things (i.e., deficits and tax rates) are only going to go higher now that there is one-party control of government. If Democrats would step up and advocate fiscal discipline, I'd be all for it, but I don't really think that's going to happen.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 3:23PM

Big Leo --

My post is "evil"? Seems to me you guys overuse that word. Will it be worn out when you're confronted with the real thing?

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 3:25PM

True American --

What is a "capitalist government"?

I don't recall that phrase in the Constitution, and I don't believe I know what it means.

Lightduty | 4.15.09 @ 3:26PM

Of course, now almost half of Americans ARE paying nothing in taxes. For them, April 15th is just another day of checking the mailbox for their check from Uncle Sam.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 3:30PM

The claim that all taxes are paid by 50% of the people is FALSE.

It is untrue, false, incredible, and wrong.

If you pay sales taxes, property taxes, Social Security and Medicare taxes, license fees or any other tax, then I'd say you pay taxes.

When Limbaugh or any other rich person tells you that only the rich pay taxes, ask yourself why you should fall for their deceptions.

The rich are trying to FOOL you into believing that these economic hard times are hardest on them, that your problems don't matter.

I say, to hell with all that.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 3:33PM

Eugene Hauber,

Why, I think that's the most intelligent thing I've ever heard anyone say. I can't imagine why anyone would think you're a racist.

Assuming that Obama is a terrorist is reasonable, rational, and easily backed up by evidence.

You're a true philosopher, Gene. A wing-ding sage.

Ever think of getting your own talk radio show? You'd fit right in.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 3:35PM

"Adam, you cherry pick your arguments. How much money did Bill Gates start with? For that matter, how about Famous Amos, William Jefferson Clinton, Stephen King, Mark Cuban, George Soros, and Warren Buffett to start a list."

I dunno about most of those people but lets take bill gates. Here's a paragraph from his wiki Bio:

Gates was born in Seattle, Washington, to William H. Gates, Sr. and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was upper middle class; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president. Gates has one elder sister, Kristi (Kristianne), and one younger sister, Libby. He was the fourth of his name in his family, but was known as William Gates III or "Trey" because his father had dropped his own "III" suffix.[8] Early on in his life, Gates's parents had a law career in mind for him.[9]

At 13 he enrolled in the Lakeside School, an exclusive preparatory school.

Sounds humble to me. Granted he was brilliant but we all know gates stole DOS from some other guy and his parents actually got him the interview with IBM by using thier connections. He'd be some dorky engineer making a low 6 figure salary right now without his parents and his fancy prep schools.

Dark-Star| 4.15.09 @ 3:38PM

"Our forefathers rebelled over taxes that amounted to pennies per item..."

Our forefathers weren't skilled farmers/woodsmen facing a British army fighting on their home turf and equipped with uncountable kinds of lethal instruments versus their hunting rifles.

If the redcoats had possessed such communication and firepower advantages, the revolution would have been smashed like a bug and the budding Congress would have all 'danced the hempen jig'. Barring an armed uprising by a vast majority of our nation's population (which isn't going to happen) the American Revolution II wind up as little more than an oversized replay of Waco.

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 3:41PM

Adam,

Truth Hurts,

I don't think rich people are sobbing because they have to pay for services they use; it's probably more to do with the services other people are using. I probably would feel better about the 60k I contributed to the cause this year if I at least got my name on a mail truck or something. And if you want to call me heartless, I can take it. If I give to charity I don't expect the recognition b/c the tingle running up my leg is enough. However, when my government forces me to buy a mailtruck, galldarnit I want to show it to my friends at the weekly country club cross burnin.

JeffW| 4.15.09 @ 3:43PM

Truth,
Surely you see, that in that particular argument people are referring to the Federal income tax. Your earlier post show you have the power of insight so maybe you are ignoring the obvious because it doesn't fit in your argument? Everyone pays some tax of some form. However the wealthy (I leave it to you to define wealthy) pay prortionately more. Sense you want it to be fair why not a flat % tax? And before you give me the argument that people on welfare would be paying tax on a check backed by tax you should know that that has been done to the military paycheck for decades.

And to pull the race card is just desperate and pathetic.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 3:45PM

Yes, Truthie, when you accuse other people of a disgusting belief that all decent people reject, you are being evil. The real thing has shown up. True, you're not Pol Pot evil or Hitler evil, but evil nonetheless.

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 3:48PM

If you're looking for a return to fiscal discipline, I would think that you'd be all for this budget and the policies of the Obama administration.

What alternative is there really, this restraint that you'd like to see implemented what would that do. The only year the the deficit is larger than the last Bush administration budget (without the fuzzy math around the war on terror and Iraq funding) is the first where the current administration juices up spending in order to resucitate the economy. We've seen what happened when you cut spending in the middle of a bad economic climate, it's called 1929 and 1936, the unemployment that comes from the loss of government jobs (including mine, eek) would push unemployment in other sectors of discretionary personal spending, the restaurant industry, retail industry, and construction industry (someone builds those eyesore box stores and eyesore cookie cutter homes).
Obama has no choice but to continue funding overseas military operations until they can be successfully unwound, would you rather leave our military personell in Fallujah without gas or a plane ticket home? His budget carefully winds down spending and increases taxes on those whom taxes should be increased upon (although not nearly enough) and plans for future industries that will drive the private industry of the future. Our infrastructure is embarassing, our dependence on oil threatens our security and our land usage is as inefficient as possible, our financial sector (which is simply selling nothing for nothing nowhere) is 12% of GDP, and our Heath care industry swallows up another 14%, wages haven't risen since the 1970's but the income gap between base employees and CEO's has risen 11 times. Ok so some of those were off topic.

The point is that government spending on infrastructure which can only be made and maintained by the government fosters private industries. A bridge to new york allows more trucks to get to new york with goods, allows more businesses to deliver more goods to more businesses more in the nick of time which promotes efficency and combats waste in the production chain. A better broadband infrastructure produces more internet commerce as more people access more pages more quickly and more sales are made to people who have more disposable income because the green energy grid is more efficient and runs on renewable energies which prices are not spiking as fossil fuels become more scarce and more in demand from emerging markets, so as China is crushed under the price of oil, America goes about it's merry way with it's wind, water, and solar power passed along through more efficient power lines from futher out areas, creating a better trade balance and more affluence.

And all this while continually working toward cutting deficits so that the deficit is half of what it was in the last year of GWB in ten years. If I walked into a room and saw a table on top of which the previous inhabitant had piled a precarious pile of feces, I would not immediately pick it up and attempt to carry it outside at the risk of spilling the poo all over the floor! I would take the pyramid apart with a little shovel bit by bit until it was gone. That's what the budget is doing.

Jerry, I suppose I had a different experience with the NHS than your son. Sometimes we see what we want to see when we look at a program we either want to villify or glorify. I think the NHS is a good thing because it was a good thing for me.

Jeff, "Please show me the source of your info that said life was fair?" I think that it's the general purpose of civilization to impose what we can deduce is fair upon life, which is essentially chaos. When Hobbes said that life in the state of nature is "nasty, brutish and short" what he really means is unfair. That's why we don't live in the state of nature, and we should be continually striving to improve the fairness of our society lest we fall to the fallacies of primitavism, and paleo-conservativism.

Pat| 4.15.09 @ 3:59PM

Of total jobs in America, 23% are jobs in state, local and federal governments. Of all the jobs lost during this current recession, government jobs had the fewest terminations. Without increasing taxes, what would these folks do for a living - they might even be laid off.

There is a vague theory among government types that everyone shouldn't work for the government. It would be nice if they did of course, but their intuition tells them it wouldn't be a good thing overall and would somehow affect their personal well-being in some mysterious fashion.

So, among the unfortunate few and increasingly fewer, a govt. job just isn't in your future. Don't go all postal about that, simply consider it your patriotic duty not to work for the govt. but rather to labor in the private sector.

Once, not too long ago, many Americans worked on farms, now it's only 3%, yet we still eat well, almost too well in fact. So, why couldn't we all take turns working for the govt.? At least until only 3% of us need to work in the private sector?

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 4:01PM

Dan,

Too many comments, so let me pick one at random. Civilization imposes fairness. Care to state a principal of fairness, or do we just keep walking towards your undefined goal with our eyes closed. Why don't we all put our money on your ridiculous poo table and split it. I'll take from the top of the pile as long as you're already carrying loads for the Prez. Wait, what does the table represent again?

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 4:05PM

I realize you're being sarcastic, Pat, but that is precisely what I would like to see. Any job where your employer is profiting means that your employer and potentially shareholders is appropriating your labour as his and their own simply from their existing capital. This is a stupid and counterproductive way to run an economy, if we all worked in the public sector (not necessarily the government, which is such a bogeyman of a word) we wouldn't have to worry about our labour being appropriated by people who contributed nothing concrete to production.

JeffW| 4.15.09 @ 4:05PM

Dan,
Nice try. As for Obama's plan cutting the deficit in future years perhaps you should read the non partisian Congressional Budget Report. They didn't back this plan either and I seem to recall the Obama team doing a little math juggling but inflating the figures. Counting the Iraq war budget going on well past our dates of withdrawal and then saying we saved it is fuzzy math.

Civilizations purpose is to impose order on Chaos. I agree with you on that. But no one said it was a level playing field. Just one with rules to live by and let live by. We should continue to improve our societies values. Taking from the successfully a undue portion to give to the unsuccessful (many through their own lack of ambition) is an odd sense of fair. Primativism and Paleo-conservativsim? Call me a Neandrathal if you want but I believe you get what you earn and should pay your fair share. Not a extra share so some one else can sit on their ass. I help my fellow man but I do not expect the goverment to demand it of me. They serve us, not the other way around.

ACynic| 4.15.09 @ 4:10PM

ADAM;

You hit it on the head !!

I want to play professional baseball. I cannot hit or field or even run very fast. But, I want to earn, say, 5 million bucks a year.
This is pocket change. After all, Alex Rodriguez makes much more than that.
But, the Yankees will not even let me try out. And if they did, they would not select me to even be the bat boy.
THIS IS NOT FAIR !!!!
BOO HOO BOO HOO BOO HOO!!!

I know, I want to earn what Tom Cruise earns. I cannot act, sing nor dance, and I am not very good looking.
I can't even get an audition for a movie or TV show.
Tom Cruise gets about 20 million per movie.
I can't even get an audition.

That is NOT FAIR !!!!!
BOO HOO BOO HOO BOO HOO.

BUT WAIT, I do not have the same talents they have, you say.
But, so what; as long as I spend the same amount of time performing the same - or nearly the same - task - or, frankly, ANY TASK, I should earn what they earn.
After all, as humans, we are all equal and OUR TIME IS ALL EQUALLY VALUABLE, irrespective of our output or worth to society. Why that is only fair, is it not ??

I know, I will move to CUBA where (almost) everyone is equal. I will earn and eat and drive (OK, walk) and have the same level job as (almost) everybody else.
Then I will be happy because EVERYBODY will be treated and earn the same; you know, like S^^T.
Oh wait I forgot.
Some pigs are more equal than other pigs.

Castro and his cronies drive nice cars (OK , they are driven by chauffeurs), eat anything they want (no rationing for them !!), have cell phones, access the internet, travel anywhere in the world, have nice western european clothing, and, even, oh my god !! have job OPPORTUNITIES (as long as they tow the company line).
It's only EVERYBODY else that is not free to have these liberties.
I know, it's because they are still "developing" their society , it's still a work in progress, as they strive for a truly equitable society in which EVERYBODY is really , really equal.
Well, just give them another 50 years, I am sure the will get there.
Don't you agree , ADAM ?

ADAM, you are SO CORRECT.

SOCIALISM / COMMUNISM IS BEST !!!

For proof, lets go back to 1917 and witness the development of the formerly oppressive Czarist Russia as it developed its progressive, utopian, heaven-on-earth, Bolshevik system.
Yep, 70 years beyond 1917 , Soviet Russia had the most advanced, equal, prosperous, wealthy and highest standard of living of any country the world has ever seen.
Ditto for Cuba (OK, its only been 50 years for them, but they are loving it. Have you noticed all the problems the Cubans are having with illegals sneaking into Cuba. My god. Must be lovely there).
Ditto for N. Korea (many vacation right across the Yalu River in China you know).
Ditto for China (they can't keep out all those sneaking in from Taiwan and Vietnam.
Ditto for the former East Germany. (a beautiful place. I visited there in 1977. Gorgeous. Did you know everybody was equal there too ??. I never saw such masterful workmanship for merely a wall and barbed wire. Beautiful. )

ADAM. YOU ARE A GENIUS.

THANK GOD YOU READ AMERICAN SPECTATOR TO KEEP ALL OF US IGNORANT, CAPITALIST PIG MORONS ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

I was going to end this by saying God Bless You, but, as an all knowing , intellectual aristocrat, you are must be an atheist.
Did you know, ADAM, that socialists, communists , intellectuals and other types of aristocrats are atheists.
Ergo, you must be an intellectual.
Darn, wish I was as smart as you.

ADAM, one question.
If you are so smart, and I am sure you are, why don't you move to say, CUBA, where the society and economic system is what you seek.
It's only 90 miles from Miami.
But you knew that, didn't you.

ACynic| 4.15.09 @ 4:10PM

ADAM;

You hit it on the head !!

That is NOT FAIR !!!!!
BOO HOO BOO HOO BOO HOO.

ADAM, you are SO CORRECT.

SOCIALISM / COMMUNISM IS BEST !!!

ADAM. YOU ARE A GENIUS.

THANK GOD YOU READ AMERICAN SPECTATOR TO KEEP ALL OF US IGNORANT, CAPITALIST PIG MORONS ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

Mo| 4.15.09 @ 4:11PM

Let's see Gallup do a poll of those same people next year when the Bush tax cuts expire. I doubt they will feel the same about what they are paying-if they are paying any taxes at all!!!

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 4:12PM

To clarify the metaphor: the poo is the deficit and the table, well the table is hard to describe. If you were to pick the table up and throw it outside, it would be like cutting spending or raising taxes a hell of a lot to balance the budget. The resulting economic catastrafu.. would result in a loss of revenue which would cause a whole new deficit cycle, ie poo on the floor from dropping the table by trying to get rid of it all at once. In order to safely remove the poo you have to get rid of it little by little. Better example, someone stole your identity and ran up a whole mess of debt on your credit card (and you lost the court battle), do you pay it off immediately and go into forclosure and bankruptcy, or continue on paying your bills and chip away at the credit card when you can despite interest.

Fairness, in politics we call it democracy, one voice per person and we're governed by the people the majority appoints, that's political suffrage/emancipation. To emancipate ourselves economically we need the same sort of suffrage. Fairness, the end goal is all capital held in common, so that no man's labour may be taken to enrich another man materially which is the jist of markets.

Warrior | 4.15.09 @ 4:18PM

Truth:

Blaming it all on the president is myopic and popular. I have not done that. I have openly stated that the congress has been complicit. I could argue my points on Obama, but I would start with the premise that W was a socialist and never ever should he be categorized as a conservative. I would then assess Obama is a Marxist and not a liberal. You sir, may be neither a conservative or a liberal, which may put you a step ahead of most.

Sheryl| 4.15.09 @ 4:28PM

Bingo! The only surprise is it took until 2:55 PM for the inevitable post wherein we are all informed that (in hushed tones) "we all know what is going on here" and that all criticisms of The One are actually veiled expressions of racism. What a shock, and such a new and novel idea!

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 4:28PM

Sorry for all the comments, but this is honestly fun. My government job is kinda dreary, if only there were windows and I wasn't dealing with people at levels of poverty you've never even imagined.

JeffW, I've looked at the CBO findings, I think they're projections are rather pessimistic in terms of growth and revenue, and they're not taking into account enough of the growth that will develop as a result of infrastructure improvements, plus I'm hoping that after his reelection Obama will come to his senses and make the top income bracket more like 45% for millionaires and over at least. Either way they say 800 billion in ten years and Obama's budget proposal says 600 billion, which is half of the 2008 deficit. But we'll just agree to disagree and see what happens.

Live and let live includes legislating against usury and abuse of the poorest and least educated among us, or else those who abuse will be treated to the sharp end of a stick sooner rather than later, I think we've learned that a few times.

Warrior, Obama is not a Marxist. I'm a Marxist. Obama is not a Marxist, reapeat after me. If he were he'd do what I would do if I was president. Abolish the financial sector. Instead he's keeping the same people in power who should be vivisected or hung. If Obama was a Marxist AIG would not exist, every bank in the country would be nationalized, we wouldn't be going into Afghanistan, the EFCA would be passed by now (I can't wait!), and the personal assets of the people who made their money on the financial services boom would be confiscated and turned back to useful production of fuel efficient cars and more infrastructure spending.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 4:31PM

Random thoughts to follow....

I hear a lotta talk about education and time spent learning, ect being touted as the reason for wage disparity in the USA. Lets try some more discussion. In my investment banker vs. mechanic arguement for instance: No one has yet addressed these points:

1. Banker, though he makes more money, actually depends more upon the mechanic than the mechanic does the Banker. Without the mechanic the banker isn't getting to work in the morning once his car eventually breaks down. Without a banker, the mechanic can just put his money in a safe. No big deal. In fact he could even take a whack at investing his own money, which he might not do very well at but investing is just gambling other peoples money without the casino anyway. Who is more important to society? If you think about it, the people on the highest wage brackets in our country are actually like the pharohs of ancient egypt or the Feudal Lords of Middle Age Europe. They depend on the work of tens of thousands of others so they can live the life of luxury that they enjoy all the while believing deep in thier hearts that they truly deserve it. Meanwhile the people who make thier lives actually happen are stepped on daily like bugs.

2. You all are working backwards in the arguement because it works better for you to do so. You're looking at the results and making inferrences about the individual based on the final outcome. You see an investment banker and a mechanic and you naturally ASSUME that the Banker is more intelligent because he is a Banker whereas the mechanic, being a mechanic, means that he obviously couldn't cut it as an investment banker and therefore was forced to settle for being a mechanic.

I assume that starting off they are of equal intelligence, equal work ethic and equal ability. This is what's known as the Nature vs Nurture arguement. Some of our traits are inborn, but the vast majority of our traits, skills and abilities are learned at a young age.

3. History is written by the victors. What I mean by that is that those in charge frame all discussions in a way that is positive for them. The wealthy, who control everything in our country, claim that capitalism makes everyone equal as long as they are willing to work hard. They then point to the infintesimally small number of examples of someone coming up from nothing to become the first black president of the United States. That way when others fail to succeed the wealthy can just shrug it off and say "Eh, they were just lazy. That's why they haven't made a bajillion dollars by age 33. They just didn't WANT it bad enough." It reminds me of what europeans used to call "the White Man's Burden". See back in colonial days white people didn't impose thier governments and colonies throughout the world only because they felt like it and they wanted to steal resources. No no no. They felt they were obligated by God to civilize the lesser races of humans for thier own good. See they were born white and white people, being white, where obviously smarter than non-whites and therefore deserved to have the most stuff. Just like capitalists like to say that Investment Bankers are smarter than mechanics because they are mechanics and therefore deserve to be paid more. So Bankers are bankers and mechanics are mechanics. That's the way of the world boys and girls. And just like in the old colonial days, the bankers tell thier children, that "sure once in a while, if he's really super smart, a mechanic CAN become a banker, but on the whole mechanics just aren't smart enough to be bankers. It's all ok though, son. They are perfectly happy just the way they are."

3. Anyone can be trained to do anything. I could train any kid from any country to be an investment banker if you get to them early enough. Wage disparty allows wealth to be concentrated among the wealthy. The more money you make, the better the life you can give your children, the better education you can give them, the better connections you can make in order to get them jobs with other wealthy friends. I mean it musta been nice for Bill Gates to know he could just drop out of Harvard in his sophomore year to take a crack at software sales. I wonder if he had to work the overnight shift at Star Market in Cambridge 6 nights a week to pay his rent while he was working on all his fancy computer programs?

I know this is mostly a rant that has no real beginning or end. lol

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 4:32PM

Dan,

Labor is bought not taken. You think it is worth more than the current buyers are paying, but that does not mean the difference is therefore taken. Nobody is forced to work for a company, so any one company can create a hierarchy within the democracy or republic. Any company can be a coop too. However, everyone is forced to work for the government through taxes. By not limiting a government's power, voting will devolve into politicians promising an ever increasing list of entitlements paid for by others. Unless 51% of voters agree that a good or service is only worth what another is willing to pay for it and your preferences should not be thrust upon others. I guess that's what I wanted America to be. If you don't, let's say we rock paper scissors for her. Winner buys the next round.

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 4:36PM

All mechanics are as smart as all bankers. The only way to be rich is to start off rich; the exceptions aren't nearly as numerous as the number of mechanics who couldn't be bankers. Average intelligence is capable of anything. Any other assumptions while we're constructing a new reality?

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 4:48PM

I reject the notion that because some claims of racism are silly and unfounded all claims of racism are silly and unfounded.

If you believe that 400 years of slavery and apartheid have no consequences and simply have evaporated into thin air, you're crazy.

There is racism and there is racism at these retarded rallies on Fox in which people are claiming -- on video -- that Obama is an illegitimate president, a terrorist, a Kenyan citizen, an illegal immigrant, or whatever. That is dog-whistle politics, my friends.

I'm not saying YOU are racist, necessarily, but I think there is an element of racism in the hateful tenor of some criticism, in the rage and bile and sweat and frothing of it all. It sounds like the wounding pain of lost supremacy.

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 4:48PM

Brian,

I'd take that offer. I go out with my friend who is a tax accountant with PWC and we get drunk and yell at each other about this kind of stuff all the time. If you're from the Philadelphia area you can come along.

I think you're making alot of assumptions as well, voters will make decisions based on who will promise them more entitlements? Sometimes, sometimes voters also vote for the guy who has the cutest dog, that'd democracy. Yes, we're forced to pool our wealth in order to create more opportunity through infrastrucure, employment, and social services. This gives us a better world to live in, and if the qualm with the idea of force is your issue, well suck it up.

No, no one is forced to work for a specific company, but we are all forced to compete in a labour market for survival and trade ourselves, our labour-power for wages which alienates us from the fruits of our labour and forces wages to conform to the laws of supply and demand which while the population grows will always produce a glut of workers and a dearth of jobs as full employment is impossible. Thus regardless of what one employs himself with as a wage job, he will always take in less than his productive output. The difference will be passed on to the salary of the shareholders including the owner who obtain this profit by means of capital. In this case, risk is often worth more than work. When an abstract concept is worth more productive power than production itself something is out of whack. Go ahead, quit your job, what is the difference between the alternatives, poverty for refusing to participate in the demeaning world of labour-power trading, or prison for failing to remit to the public what allows commerce to follow? If you've seen real poverty this is actually quite a head scratcher.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 4:56PM

Adam says, "Anyone can be trained to do anything. I could train any kid from any country to be an investment banker if you get to them early enough." The overwhelming evidence is that intelligence is largely inherited, and is not a product of the environment. Given that, the abilities most people have can be trained and encouraged to accomplish much, but if investment banking were just something you could train for, people would do it. The foster children I raised and the child I adopted at birth did not do as well as my blood children. I didn't treat them any differently, and they had the same environment. The idea that nurture trumps nature is without rational proof.

Denise-Mary| 4.15.09 @ 5:20PM

This one's for Dee, w-a-y up in the thread somewhere. With regard to social security, and the right "would be screaming" were that taken away -- uhm, last time I looked at my paycheck, and the one before that, and actually, all 800 of them going back over my working lifetime, money was taken out of each and every paycheck towards the day when I would retire. Never mind that, in this economy, retirement no longer seems an option. The fact remains the government took MY money to pay for MY retirement. I earned the funds, and they are supposed to come back to me. What part of MY money don't you perhaps understand?

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 5:23PM

Dan,

I'd take you up on that, but I'm not even close to Philly. True story, I refuse to order a cheese steak until I have made the trip. My 20's are moving fast and I've never had a cheese steak. Anyway, yes, there is a spread between what an employee is willing to work for and what the company is willing to pay. With unskilled labor that difference goes to the employer, but with skilled labor the worker takes an increasing share of same. If we invert the bargaining we can have labor take the same share, leaving companies on equal footing, just less profitable. Assuming each is of equal natural fairness , I just ask, what is the mechanism for the inversion and which system produces the more output/higher standard of living. I am not an economist, but it seems the only way to get the job done is for the government to assign wages and counter cheaper imports with tariffs. I like the risk/reward system. I think, falsely or not, that it is a fundamental part of America, thus to change it would be a move away from concept of America. Not trying to waive the flag, but you grow up to hold it up on a pedestal and you can't help but give all ties to runner/reigning champ/etc. Will stick around long enough to give you final word.

Pat| 4.15.09 @ 5:36PM

"The peasants are revolting" is a scary thought to our government employees, at least those hired through our quaint executive search process called an election. Privately, most politicians believe us peasants are personally revolting, but this time around the peasants won't even let them have a turn at the microphone during the Tea Parties being conducted around the nation today.

So, the politicians are denied the chance to hurry to the front of the parade and pretend to lead us. Will anything come out of this so-called "tax revolt" - probably not. Folks get it off their chests and then go home for a brew and a night of sitcoms. For those who don't pay taxes or work for the government, the Tea Parties are silly and unnecessary. It should be increasingly interesting to live within these "interesting times".

mary conclin| 4.15.09 @ 5:43PM

I can't believe all the tax revolt parties going on today. people really are making their voices heard, I just saw a ton of pictures from parties and ralleys going on nationwide here:

http://tinyurl.com/taxrevoltpics

pretty interesting!

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 5:52PM

Just got back from work, had to take the el to the subway and walk a mile.
Thanks, I would say that appropriating the existing infrastructure to produce what they're already producing in the public realm wouldn't necessitate any tariffs. If you took the executives and the stockholders out of the situation and replaced them with highly trained civil servants and the capital was simply provided by other government agencies, I think you'd find that moral would be higher, wages would increase due to no profit, less pay for those at the top, less cost of raw materials etc, the price of goods would decrease for that same reason, and more people would be employed to make more money at shorter hours. I don't know whose quality of life that would hurt, hmm, maybe Richard Fuld, but he should be hung.

It's a good choice. When you're here go to Pat's not Geno's never Geno's.

To Pat, I think that the rich would have much more to worry about than the elected officials, there are as many people who are poor and angry at the rich in one area of a major city as there are people who are poor and angry at the government in the whole US.

Interesting times though, good luck to you Brian. I don't know how this got started I was just rooting around on realclearpolitics.

Brian| 4.15.09 @ 6:00PM

Dan,

And good luck to you. I too enjoy the comments sections from rcp links. I don't comment much but Adam was too much to resist today. And Pat's it is. Thanks for the tip.

adam| 4.15.09 @ 6:02PM

Oh and who said that 90% of millionares come from "humble" beginnings? lmao. Here's the real math behind those statistics people: the average american makes ~40k per year lets say. After taxes at 28% you take home 28.8k. Do that for 34.73 years and you are now technically a millionare. Congratulations. I'm rich bitch!

Diane| 4.15.09 @ 6:39PM

US citizens pay the lowest taxes in the world. Obama just passed the largest tax cut for the middle class in American history. Why are you all up in arms about people making over 250,000.00 having to pay more taxes? You are getting extra funds back in your paychecks (I noticed a 48.00 increase on my last pay stub). Even the conservative economist for Forbes doesn't understand why you are all upset. http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/09/tea-party-taxes-opinions-columnists-bartlett.html. This is from a conservative economist who has been conservative for years. I think you hate the fact that Democrats won, you don't want to admit you're mad because a brown person got into office, and are picking so-called "higher" taxes to throw a temper tantrum with. You are paying LESS taxes than under Bush, who ran the economy into the dirt sending trillions of YOUR tax money to Iraq. Unbelievable. This is what happens when Americans fail to educate themselves about how the government works, and listen to conservative racist talk radio for years on end. Kills the brain cells.

ThinkTank| 4.15.09 @ 6:40PM

The free lunches are over.
Deficits are at historical levels, and will only get higher.
Cutting spending to zero will not stop the bleeding. Americans will need to step up to the plate, and start paying off the debt - their own and their country's

John A. Bailo| 4.15.09 @ 6:45PM

The way that they get you is that many Americans only count federal income tax. They don't add in all the other taxes.

But even Federal tax is egregiously high especially for those making under $100K a year. I don't see any reason why people making under $100K should pay any more than 1 percent of income, flat rate. Get rid of all the special deductions and make it like a sales tax. You earn a dollar, you give the Government a penny. The should be able to make due with that.

Mark Yannone | 4.15.09 @ 6:49PM

How did it become "fair" for an American family to give to government a third of its income?

Let me word the question correctly.

What makes us think government can take so much as a penny?

Jim| 4.15.09 @ 6:56PM

Adam,
Get a job and stop excepting America to support your lazy, liberal ass. No one owes you a living.

Big Leo| 4.15.09 @ 7:19PM

The problem is that half the people pay less than 5% of the Federal Income Tax. I say this, and I am in that 5%. I have no personal stake in tax reduction for the rich. The nugatory amount I pay isn't significant to me, much less to the government.
However, I know that if the successful are taxed heavily, that will have a serious impact on the way I live, and the way my children live. There will be fewer jobs, since there will be less investment. My son is graduating next year, and he will need a job. There will be less money for charities, which means it will cost more to to to museums, concerts, and parks. There will be fewer profits for shareholders, which not only means less investment but less retirement income for me, and I depend on what I put into investments to live.
If you are getting some sort of benefit from the government, it gets worse. You don't pay taxes, so you have no restraint on voting yourself any kind of benefit that a politician is unscrupulous enough to promise you. It endangers democracy because of that sole fact alone. It is a maxim of all times that democracy can only last until the majority learn that they can vote themselves benefits at the expense of the rich minority.
Last but not least, it is unfair. Taking half of what a person earns by superior skills, hard work, and public service is unjust. And that may be the worst of all.

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 7:22PM

Wasn't that 90% rate for people who were too dumb to hire a tax accountant/tax shelter specialist? IIRC, the more you earned, the more you could spend to hide it.

Nick| 4.15.09 @ 7:22PM

Oh look, it's past 6pm, dinner is over and bleeding heart liberal parents have let their twit children loose on the computer to spout marxism at conservative blogs.

Diane's, Adam's, and Dan's parents should have their computers taken away. They might hurt themselves.

And when in Philly, always go to Geno's, home of the America First cheese steak.

Len| 4.15.09 @ 7:26PM

Adam you are correct in your post about it being a rant. Let me point out some of your errors. You make a rather silly assumption about the banker and mechanic being equal in intelligence. Intelligence is something developed over time by continuous application. This is a manifestation of character, not necessarily noble, but nonetheless an inner drive and willingness to make the effort to develop one's ability. It is this that really is the defining difference. One sees this all the time in athletes who may surpass others in performance not because of physical giftedness, but hard, hard work and drive.
You say the banker is more dependent on the mechanic than vice a versa. What's to stop the banker from learning to work on his car? He has an option for convenience and pays what is considered a fair exchange so that he may go on about his business. It's a silly argument you put forth, and really there are too many examples of people starting from nothing and becoming at least well off. I hear from you an unexamined logic, and petty envy.

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 7:34PM

Changing "investment banker" in the compensation discussions to, say, Navy SEAL or Firefighter or Law Enforcement Officer makes a different kind of sense.

George S| 4.15.09 @ 7:43PM

The answer to Adam's question is easy: a mechanic can, in fact, earn a million dollars a year. All he has to do is charge $1,000 for an oil change. Do four of those a day and he racks up a million at the end of the year. So why can't he? Well, if YOU needed an oil change, would you pay a $1,000 or would you pay $29.99 at Jiffy Lube?

It's all about what you are willing to pay someone else. That's why it's called "earning" a living.
Nobody is assigned a wage; there are people who will settle for thirty bucks an oil change. Others who charge more will find out that they have no customers. There's where your wage disparity comes in.

God Bless our public school system...

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 7:53PM

George S

Isn't that why jobs are shipped off to low-wage countries?

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 8:05PM

Denise-Mary

Social Security tax was paying for your parent's retirement.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 8:13PM

We just watched Fox News Tea Parties in action.

Dudes, conservatives just don't know how to have a protest.

Let's face it. Liberals can't do talk radio. Conservatives can't do grass roots protests. They're too authoritarian. You have to know how to get a little wild, and frankly, you all just aren't good at that.

We had Martin Luther King; you have Ted Nuggent and Glenn Beck.

Good fortune to you, comrades.

ben| 4.15.09 @ 8:18PM

I keep seeing the Dems claim that Obambi is only raising taxes on the rich, and why wouldn't a poor person accept that. - Because it's wrong. I make $30,000 a year is all but I don't support a progressive tax system. I think everyone should pay the same share of their income in taxes. The more you make the more you pay but the percentage or share of your income stays the same. Punishing people for doing well will not encourage others to want to do well.
It's like these damn teachers who say they don't make enought money. Well I'm 37 years old and have been hearing how "unfair" teacher wages are since I was 5. Friends of mine became teachers and now complain about not making enough. I always remind them that they knew that going in and still chose that career. They must've chosen it for some other reason than money and if money was important to them they could've spent their time at college getting a degree that would earn them more.
We make choices in our lives and it is we that must live with the choices we make. It took me 12 years to graduate from college because my parents couldn't afford to send me and I kept having to drop out to make and save more money so that I could go back. I mowed lawns, waited tables, cooked etc just to get my degree.
It would've been much easier for me if my parents were rich and could've paid for my school for me but they couldn't and I've worked for everything I have. Eventually my career path could take me up to and past $250,000 a year. If I make it I will have worked for it, and earned it so why should I be forced to share it with someone who chose to drop out of HS, sold drugs for years, spent time in jail and now has no education, no skills and no experience. Giving the poor money just cus they're poor only reinforces the mindset of why work for it when I don't have to. Giving money to the poor does NOT pull them out of poverty, it only pulls the money sources closer to it, making everyone poorer.
Oh and there are NOT 47 million americans without health insurance, there are 47 million people in Amerca without health insurance - roughly 10 million of them are illegals who don't pay taxes and should not benefit from them. Also, the average American without health insurance makes more money than the average American. over 20 million of the uninsured Americans make more than $75,000 a year - most of those are under 34 and have access to employer provided insurance but have chosen not to take it.

Buzz| 4.15.09 @ 8:20PM

What a strange place to stop the tax history lesson. You left out the the 1920's, where the top marginal tax rate was between 46 and 73%. Or 1940-1963, where the top rate ranged from 81 to 94% (on incomes over $200k to $400k, depending on the year). Or 1975-1990, when the top tax rate was 70% on incomes over $200k. Historically, today's rates are actually quite low.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 8:46PM

My dear Buzz, you mistake your audience.

They aren't interested in math or history. They're interested in venting their absurd resentments and insecurity.

Fact is, most people posting here are probably either going to get a tax break or their rates will remain the same under Obama.

The very wealthy have convinced these poor souls to feel sorry for them. And they'll laugh about it all the way to the bank.

Truth Hurts| 4.15.09 @ 8:49PM

When it comes right down to it, Republicans just aren't cool.

Let's see.... should I choose the party of Ted Nuggent, or the party of Bruce Springsteen.

Oh yeah. That's a tough one.

Tea parties! Come to think of it, there's something kind of faggy about it all.

Like I said, it's against the authoritarian soul of the reactionary to know how to have a good protest. You need to be a bit of a libertine to have a good demonstration.

Stick to your radios, my friends. Don't touch that dial. Instructions are forthcoming.

Anthony | 4.15.09 @ 9:00PM

Our taxes is way to high I was just wandering why we wait until now to protest. Government spending was high for a long time ago. The money that we just pumped into the economy was needed because with out a stimulus package we probably be in a economic depression. We learned our lesson in 1929 during the great depression when President Herbert Hoover decided to let the economy fix itself without the government help which worsen the economy. The economy did not get better until President Roosevelt did a lot of government spending to recover the economy.

Buzz| 4.15.09 @ 9:08PM

Where were the end-the-deficit tea parties protesting a $1 trillion unnecessary war? Where were the and-the-deficit tea parties when Bush squandered the surplus with a $1.5 trillion tax cut (that went mostly to the wealthy) ... money that could have been used to pay down the debt the ditto-heads are now so concerned about? Where were the tea parties when a GOP President signed budget after budget from a GOP Congress stuffed with pork spending?

I'm worried about the debt. Have been for many years. I think it undermines the real economy in ways we don't even realize. But economists on both sides recognized the need for stimulus spending. The bail outs? Well, that's another story. But that too began under Bush.

Want to cut spending? Defense seems like a logical place to start since we spend 10 times as much (as a percentage of GDP) as any other peace-loving, democratic, industrialized country.

Nick| 4.15.09 @ 9:30PM

Buzz,

And where were whiners like you when democrats like San Fran Nan and Dusty Reid wanted to spend twice as much as GWB did?

The war was very necessary, by the way.

Neal| 4.15.09 @ 9:38PM

As for Adam's assertion that high wage earners actually didn't earn it but were born into their situation, I can whole heartedly disagree. After growing up relatively poor, working through school, borrowing $75k for grad school (which took ten years to pay off), and borrowing $700k for a small business that is on the verge of paying me a nice salary, I am not at all happy with the prospective increased taxes not only on my income but on my business as well. Living in a county where the largest income is disability I have long since lost my respect for those who refuse to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps (disability is the new welfare). This life has never been, nor will it ever be, fair. In my line of work I find that those who share Adam's approach are those who refuse to work. They whine and cry about not ever having any money (been listening to them for 15 years now) but they've never held down a job for any significant amount of time nor do they attempt to find or sustain gainful employment. Risk offers reward. I could just as easily have failed in my business but now, just when I'm on the verge of paying off my bank note, the government is going to punish me on so many levels for attempting to attain the American dream by hard work and persistence. The redistribution of wealth is wrong. It seems that there are two types of people in this country, those who work hard trying to figure out how to make a living and those who work hard trying to figure out how to take it away from us.

Mark Yannone | 4.15.09 @ 10:06PM

For those who aspire to become millionaires, the Zimbabweans can prepare you for your certain future.

Michael| 4.15.09 @ 10:09PM

What happens to the 40% that don't pay taxes but only receive hand-outs from the government when the other 60% go on strike? When they disappear to some island somewhere and do their own thing? They will starve maybe? .... read "Atlas Shrugged", to get a nice picture of socialism when it's allowed to continue on it's course.

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 10:16PM

Nick
"The war was very necessary, by the way."

Please share your research (anecdotes are for the ignorant, cites only please). I have a hunch we agree on this point, possibly for very different reasons.

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 10:30PM

Michael
"What happens to the 40% that don't pay taxes but only receive hand-outs from the government when the other 60% go on strike?"

Like this bum?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s

concerned| 4.15.09 @ 10:30PM

Michael
"What happens to the 40% that don't pay taxes but only receive hand-outs from the government when the other 60% go on strike?"

Like this bum?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s

Dan| 4.15.09 @ 10:49PM

Nick,

Ah, insult the last refuge of those without an argument. Who I am is unimportant and, as this form allows, somewhat anonymous. I suppose your derisive comment was meant to imply that my arguments were infantile. When I was in high school I was enamored of Ayn Rand, and would have loved the disconnected logic of this specific article; but then I began doing this thing called studying, reading, thinking, analyzing. The really infantile thing is your position that there is immutable good and immutable bad, the economic elect and the rest of us. But what can we expect from a philosophy that rests on a parrotlike repetition of our first dearest word, "mine".

Seriously, Geno's, you're no Philadelphian. Style over substance, the conservative mantra.

Jarad| 4.15.09 @ 10:54PM

@concerned

"Isn't that why jobs are shipped off to low-wage countries? "

No, actually jobs are shipped off to low-wage countries because our punishing tax codes (which fund, at least here in NC, things such as a "Tea Pot Museum" at the tune of half a mil) make doing business here, well, punishing!

PS Believe me, I see the irony in the state government giving money to a "Tea Pot Museum" today.

Jarad | 4.15.09 @ 10:57PM

Although, I have to say of the people posting in this specific thread, whether on the left or right side, I really appreciate the (mostly) civil and (mostly) intelligent posts. The trolls I have read on here that will not be named could never actually make a valid point or be remotely civil and I appreciate the open debate on both sides.

Falcon46| 4.15.09 @ 11:17PM

Mr Cline’s article understates the level of taxation significantly and misses part of what people are really mad about at the TEA Parties.

He leaves out the fact that people also pay a payroll tax and that there are on average 22% of embedded taxes on everything one buys. That $25,000 car has about $6,000.00 of embedded taxes and then you get to pay sales tax on the $6,000.00 tax. The car would cost ~$19,000 without them. These embedded taxes also raise the cost of exports. In addition, the United States has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. These factors make it hard for our products to compete. More good jobs leave America.

Our income tax code is a mess and results in $4.00 of expense for each $1.00 of services based on OMB and CBO reports.

Just as bad is the fact that we see our politicians committing political extortion by often bringing forth legislation they don’t really expect to pass just to extort contributions from parties that will be hurt by it if it passes.

Then there is the Federal Reserve (FED), a private banking cartel, except for the small Federal Open Market Committee in DC (stands for District of Corruption). Just as the NIRA was declared unconstitutional in 1935 (by a 9-0 vote) for trying to turn all other businesses into private cartels, so to is the FED unconstitutional. By taking interest rates close to zero, the FED is destroying enormous amounts of capital in this country (both personal and business). Many companies have wage funds whose interest income is no longer sufficient to cover cash outlays in this down business cycle. They thus have to diminish the wage fund principle just to meet payroll or cut more jobs.

Then there are the 30 year bonds coming due from 1979 and 1980 when interest rates were high. The US will have to recapitalize each billion in bonds at about 25:1 or more now that interest rates are near zero, so each billion becomes 25 billion or more. The US can’t pay these off, nor the 20 year or 10 bonds that also must be recapitalized at much higher value. In a few years, this process will create a quadrillion dollars (1,000 trillions) or more in new debt.

Worse, still, the FED actions may be causing even greater problems that people are just beginning to recognize. The significant ratio to watch is not debt to GDP as many media pundits claim but additional debt to additional GDP, or the amount of GDP contributed by the creation of $1 in new debt. It is this ratio that determines the quality of debt. In the 1950's when the dollar was still redeemable in the sense that foreign governments and central banks could convert their short-term dollar balances into gold at the fixed statutory rate of $35 per ounce, the marginal productivity of debt was 3 or higher, meaning that the addition of $1 in new debt caused the GDP to increase by at least $3. Many experts claim it is now at about $0.12, so that it takes $8 of debt to add $1 to GDP. And some even claim it has gone negative, which means each dollar of debt is causing the GDP to shrink. The FED may be risking something worse than a depression?

The truth is the FED is not independent and doesn’t fight inflation. It uses its unchecked and unconstitutional power to make money for the people who own it, offers cover for the political elites that are in power, creates inflation, is destroying capital in this country in a way that means we produce less and less of anything the rest of the world wants, and acts as a total monopolistic power over our money and financial system from which there is currently no escape.

The Politicians in DC and the FED have wrecked our country. There is plenty to be mad about besides just taxes.

Paul| 4.15.09 @ 11:26PM

Could anyone please tell me which economic system does not have rich and poor and where the rich don't get richer and the poor get poorer? Even in Europe and Russia and Cuba and Somalia there are the haves and have nots. The only difference is that America used to be a republic founded in the Constitution and the law that protected any citizen's right to pursue "happiness". Not anymore. Now, even exercising your first amendment right can get you on a DHS list as a homegrown terrorist. Guess it's finally 1984 on the Animal Farm.

Jarad| 4.15.09 @ 11:40PM

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm all of a sudden flooding this particular thread with my posts, but
@paul
you hit the nail on the head.
My wife and I are not in the least bit "rich." I work in metal shop and she works with developmentally disabled people and goes to school part time trying to get her nursing degree, which is a lifelong pursuit of hers.
We make less than 60k a year. We do not come from money, although my parents are fairly "well-off", but I would not accept money from them if they served it to me on a silver platter.
We save, and we hope to get rich from the work that we do and the random opportunities that come our way.
What needs to be reinforced, and I think it has been by the numerous demonstrations today, is that it's not about left, right, independent, or what-have-you, it's about our rightful money that we (and I mean ALL of us, even the "filthy stinking rich") earn and that the federal imperialist government takes away to spend on absolute garbage. National defense is one thing that I gladly pay for, because it translates to safety and security for my yet-to-be-conceived children. But most tax money is spent on garbage, we all know it, and anyone who has an actual argument against it please post it, because i can't think of one rational person who would defend the kind of spending that our current administration has/already has put in place.

Nick| 4.15.09 @ 11:42PM

Concerned,

For me, the war was necessary for the only reason wars are ever necessary: Self Defense. All the other reasons used to defend the war were illegitimate. The following facts are common knowledge:

>On February 28th, 1991 Saddam agreed to a cease-fire and subsequently to U.N. resolutions.
>He repeatedly violated those resolutions over the next 12 years.
>He launched SAM's at our airmen for 12 years.
>He was a sadist.
>He PUBLICLY paid the families of terrorists to pay for their destroyed homes.
>Saddam was capable of any evil act.
>He was unfit to lead a nation.
>After the 9/11 attacks and 12 years of thumbing his nose at us, President Bush gave Saddam 6 months to comply with the U.N. resolutions or we would make him comply with force.
>Operation Iraqi Freedom WAS a war of CHOICE, and it was Saddam who made it.
>Today, all Americans do not have to worry about Saddam covertly attacking us.

And that is a good thing.

Jarad| 4.15.09 @ 11:42PM

*just to put this in context, our current administration, our last administration, the one before that, etc.

Todd| 4.15.09 @ 11:46PM

Buzz,
Who exactly do you think is holding the barbarians at the gate with our so-called "unnecessary defense" spending? Do you think we can trust those "peace loving" Europeans to do anything about countries like Iran and Russia? Obama apologizing to those Euro free-riding bastards (they don't spend anything on military hardly because it is our job to protect them apparently) for our arrogance is an absolute disgrace. You should probably study some 20th century history because you sound appallingly ignorant like most Democrat voters.

Bill Clinton| 4.15.09 @ 11:57PM

I can not recall reading so many stupid liberal comments on one subject.
Help me Help me, I can't provide for myself cause I quit high school and smoked dope with the bro's at the hoops. Now I have no education or a trade.
I f you think that your tax dollar is being used wisely NOW, you need serious counseling.

Bill Clinton| 4.16.09 @ 12:03AM

Let's say just for the sake of argument that Bahama gives all the katrina "victims" $100,000.00 dollars, what do you think would happen? invest in some business? No but there would be a run on bigger and better ice chest to sit on and drink more beer. People are poor because they choose to be for the better part. Everyone can't be rich and some just choose to be lazy. That's the way it is. PERIOD

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 12:19AM

"… way past tea party time …" links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

… Recent Comments "… way past tea party time …" April 16th, 2009 by admin Comments Feed Here is a good commentary by Andrew Cline, about taxation in modern America: It’s way past tea party time The Democrats, of course, are ridiculing the whole concept of the Tea Party movement. They’re calling it a ‘fad’. Maybe. We’ll see. Meanwhile, the economy seems to…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 12:28AM

Wednesday’s Daily News links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Work If We Let It - Sen. Jim DeMint, The Greenville News Specter Inquiry Rebuffed by CFG’s New President - Jed Babbin, Human Events Tax Day Becomes Protest Day - Glenn Reynolds, WSJ It’s Way Past Tea Party Time - Andrew Cline, American Spectator Obama’s Tax Reckoning - Walter Alarkon & Ian Swanson, The Hill Keynes at the Border? - Alan Viard, American.com Help Thailand With Free Trade - IBD…

Nick| 4.16.09 @ 12:54AM

Dan,

Marxism deserves only insult and ridicule. Anyone who still spouts marxist beliefs is either a liar or a dupe. Which one are you? With all that studying and reading, you should've learned what a fraud and failure socialism truly is. My comment was humorous, something you commies don't appreciate.

Do you spell "labour" with a "u" because you're a marxist? Or are you a marxist because you spell labor with a "u"? That is a joke, for you humor impaired pinkos, and those in Rio Linda. Or maybe you are Canadian, British, or Australian?

I think you're confusing my comments with someone else's. I'm not sure what you meant about your anonymity or your inference of my "position" about "immutable" good and bad.

You did get one thing right, I've never been to Philly. But if I ever do, I'll be sure to visit Geno's for the singular reason he has a sign that asks customers to "ORDER IN ENGLISH" and fought your marxist PC police buddies to keep it up.

Darryl| 4.16.09 @ 5:13AM

I have immensely enjoyed the to and fro of the comments. I got stuck this year paying as my withholding did not quite cover it. Not liking writing a check to the IRS, I went back to tweak my withholding. Check out the new W4 on the IRS homepage and tell me how our tax code is "fair" and "simple". What a maze.

Buzz| 4.16.09 @ 7:41AM

Todd -- Our military spending 10 times as much as Russia. Ten times as much as China. Ten times as much as any other country. We spend more on our military than the rest of the world COMBINED!!! Now, I didn't say defense spending was unnecessary (I said the Iraq war was unnecessary). I agree with you that Europe is getting a free ride ... it would be a big help if we could pay $100 billion less and the EU could pay $100 billion more. What I don't get is why those who are protesting the stimulus spending are not mad about our military spending.

Nick, we all appreciate that Saddam was a very bad man. So bad that I was happy he was dead. But you know that's not why we CHOSE to start the war, nor is it sufficient reason to start a war ever. A bad guy doing bad things that does not amount to an imminent threat to our interests has NEVER been enough to justify our starting a war. It's not about who Saddam was, it's about who we are. Before 2003, we were not a country that started wars unless we or our allies were attacked, or there was an imminent threat to our national nterests.

Obviously, we'll never agree on the war, and that's OK. But you can't be mad at the Dem/Obama spending, and you certainly can't blame them for the debt, without at least looking at the spending under Bush (he inherited a prosperous economy that was generating a surplus, and instead of paying for a $1 trillion war, he gave the wealthy a $1.5 trillion tax cut, while the Congressional GOP was porking the tax payer to death).

I just wish everything hadn't become so divisive and partisan ... I'm with folks who want to reduce the debt, but I get defensive when they follow the lead of the radio talking heads and start calling Dems names and/or placing sole blame on Obama and the Dems. It's just false.

Obama is driving the extreme right crazy. The extreme right is alienating the moderate right. And the GOP is on the verge of a generation of irrelevance. And that's too bad, because I (a Dem) want the GOP constructively at the table. They can be a much-needed check. But they need some new ideas; they need to stop marginalizing themselves with destructive rhetoric.

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 8:19AM

“Fairness” of Taxes Is and Should be An Issue | tax deadline links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…is Washington’s gradual convincing of the American people that giving so much of their income to the government is just and fair. By Andrew Cline American Spectator http://spectator.org/archives/200 9/04/15/its-way-past-tea-party-time Michelle Malkin: http://michellemalkin.com/2009/0 4/15/a-tax-day-tea-party-cheat-sh eet-how-it-all-started/ admin Uncategorized Comments (0) Leave a comment No comments…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 9:27AM

Car Cheap Insurance - It’s Way Past Tea Party Time - Spectator.org « Car Cheap Insura links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Cheap Insurance - How Consumers Can Take Smart Advantage of Falling Prices - U.S. News & World Report Car Cheap Insurance - It’s Way Past Tea Party Time - Spectator.org It’s Way Past Tea Party Time - Spectator.org Of all the outrages that led to Americans organizing “tea parties” today to protest high taxes and unprecedented federal spending, the most serious and consequential has…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 9:39AM

Lots of economic news to digest; plus the VIX is falling - Steve Cook on Disciplined links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…http://econompicdata.blogspot.com/2009/04/eurozone-industrial-production-collapse.html Politics The tea parties were long overdue: http://spectator.org/archives/2009/04/15/its-way-past-tea-party-time This should be of interest to anyone watching CNBC: http://dealbreaker.com/2009/04/nbc-cracking-down-on-cnbc-obam.php I’ll let…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 10:26AM

(Italian)Tea Party Round-Up & Open Trackback links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Chicago Breaking News, Gateway Pundit, Tax Day Tea Party, Blue Crab Boulevard, Wizbang, Right Wing Nut House, The Politico, The Sundries Shack, Protein Wisdom, Riehl World View, Donklephant, American Spectator, Patterico’s Pontifications, Neo-neocon, NewsBusters.org Crosspost: The Right Nation Categorie: Generale | RSS Comments feed | Commenta | Trackback. Lascia un commento: Nome Mail (will…

dan ferry| 4.16.09 @ 11:26AM

check out this crazy pictures from tea parties all over the us! talk about coming together!!

http://tinyurl.com/taxrevoltpics

Perri| 4.16.09 @ 11:34AM

My high school daughter was absolutely shocked at the results of a school project in which they were to choose a career and then come up with a budget for that income. The result was that after paying taxes, putting aside 10% for savings and 10% tithe, they would have to live on HALF of their gross income. A $40,000 job doesn't seem so great when you're living off of $20,000 for 4 people.

Nick| 4.16.09 @ 12:04PM

Buzz,

What about my first question about San Fran Nan and Dusty Reid wanting to spend twice as much as the GOP congress? A convenient omission on your part. The democrat party has no moral standing on fiscal responsibility.

As far as the war goes, it was Saddam's CHOICE to go to war or not. All he had to do was let us inspect where and when we wanted to.

And you totally ignored my point, probably on purpose. It wasn't the fact that Saddam was a bad man, the world is full of bad men. It was the fact he was a certifiable sadistic bad man that had attacked us repeatedly over 12 years and wouldn't abide by international law which sealed his fate.

"Before 2003, we were not a country that started wars unless we or our allies were attacked, or there was an imminent threat to our national nterests (sic)." Have you ever heard of the Tonkin Gulf Incident? LBJ, DEMOCRAT president, cost the lives of 58,000 Americans based on an attack by a handful of North Viet Nam's patrol boats, that were dispatched easily and never posed a threat, just to win an election.

concerned| 4.16.09 @ 12:46PM

Jarrad
Although we disagree on the cause of job flight, I have to thank you for pointing out the irony of the protest. I hadnt seen it that way, made me smile, so good on you!

Bilwick| 4.16.09 @ 12:54PM

Truth Hurts seems to accuse people supporting the tea parties as "authoritarian." So--let me see if I got this right-- in his mind, being anti-statist equals "authortiarianism"? What color is the subn on Bizarro Planet, "Truth"?

concerned| 4.16.09 @ 1:34PM

Nick
Thanks for the effort and explanation.
As I suspected, we agree on necessity for action, not root cause. For me, (I really don't want to start any flame wars) as poorly planned as Iraqi Freedom was, Desert Storm was worse in so many respects (easy, I mean from a geopolitical, long-term viewpoint, not military mission success). I believe that the entire job should have been completed in 1991. Thought all the way through before we advanced on Baghdad. Force regime change and most importantly, the break in succession. From everything I've read so far, as crazy as Saddam was, his sons were FAR worse. Would Saddam have attacked the US with WMD directly or by proxy? Maybe, but IMO unlikely. He could have done far more harm had he LEGALLY sold all of his nation's oil rights to China.

Dan| 4.16.09 @ 2:28PM

Nick,

Hahaha, we don't get humor, ha ha. Your comments were humorous, I don't find stuidity humorous unless it's in a Robert Plant falsetto.

So far you haven't shown anything but ignorance, so here goes. We won't even get into how phenomenally stupid your post on the Iraq war was. So here goes, your position about unchanging good and bad or good is typical of a right wing position, combining facile economics with slavish patriotism. America is good, capitalism is good, socialism is always bad, Europe is bad and that'll never change regardless of reality, which, it is well known, has a liberal bias.

To be a conservative you must be either a charlatan or an idiot. Anyone defending the rights of the rich to extract their wealth from his labour is an idiot. If you are rich, you're just defending what's in your economic interest and in the interest of the means of production which has given you your position.

I spell labour with a U because I did my degree in the UK, it became habit.

For christ sake, you hate Mexicans too. Is Fox news controlling your mind, do you have any capacity for critical thinking. The irony in the Geno's sign is that his parents came from Italy unable to speak a lick of English, and there aren't any Hispanics in Philadelphia. Plus, their sandwiches are inferior.

If you post back please raise material objections to Marxism so that I may demonstrate your misconceptions.

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 2:49PM

(Italian)Tea Party Round-Up & Open Trackback « mondopiccolo links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Breaking News , Gateway Pundit , Tax Day Tea Party , Blue Crab Boulevard , Wizbang, Right Wing Nut House , The Politico , The Sundries Shack , Protein Wisdom , Riehl World View , Donklephant, American Spectator , Patterico’s Pontifications , Neo-neocon , NewsBusters.org, Gateway Pundit , Michelle Malkin , Founding Bloggers , Wizbang, Protein Wisdom , Big Hollywood Crosspost: The Right Nation Trackbacked…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 3:01PM

“Fairness” of Taxes Is and Should be An Issue | tenth amendment links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…is Washington’s gradual convincing of the American people that giving so much of their income to the government is just and fair. By Andrew Cline American Spectator http://spectator.org/archives/200 9/04/15/its-way-past-tea-party-time Michelle Malkin: http://michellemalkin.com/2009/0 4/15/a-tax-day-tea-party-cheat-sh eet-how-it-all-started/ admin Uncategorized Comments (0) Leave a comment No comments…

Crusader| 4.16.09 @ 3:18PM

Where's Adam go? I want a check equal to one of LeBron James' game checks. I just spent 2 hours playing b-ball with some friends. You can't tell me LeBron works any harder or sweats any more than I just did. Gimme my damn check!!!!!

Dan| 4.16.09 @ 4:25PM

Crusader,

No one is saying that. We are however saying that LeBron's salary is absurd and should be limited. We have a serious imbalance in society when people are permitted to accrue so much of a country's capital while the productive force behind the capital is left to subsist on scraps. Yeah, LeBron and ARod have impressive skills that inspire some to beauty and give joy to many people, but that doesn't justify the allocation of so much of our society's productive output.

Simply, it's not that YOU should make HIS salary, it's that HE should make an amount more comparable to YOUR salary. The same goes with everyone.

ds80| 4.16.09 @ 6:00PM

Truth Hurts said: "Quick question, conservatives. ... When you say only "50% pay taxes," are you joking?" etc etc.

This sounds like someone who pays no taxes and is afraid his gravy train is about to end.

ds80| 4.16.09 @ 6:06PM

Dan said: "America is good, capitalism is good, socialism is always bad."

Hey, thanks, Dan. You can come out of the closet now. But you got something wrong: conservatives *recognize* charlatans and sanctimonious moochers.

And neo-Marxist Obama butt-kissers.

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 9:07PM

“Fairness” of Taxes Is and Should be An Issue | texas sovereignty links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…is Washington’s gradual convincing of the American people that giving so much of their income to the government is just and fair. By Andrew Cline American Spectator http://spectator.org/archives/200 9/04/15/its-way-past-tea-party-time Michelle Malkin: http://michellemalkin.com/2009/0 4/15/a-tax-day-tea-party-cheat-sh eet-how-it-all-started/ admin Uncategorized Comments (0) Leave a comment No comments…

Pingback| 4.16.09 @ 9:59PM

Let’s hear it for the Party… « Wrangler Dani links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

onally Speaking… Wrangler Dani The ramblings of a small-town girl in a big-city life. Feeds: Posts Comments Let’s hear it for the Party… April 16, 2009 by wranglerdani The Tea Party, that is. In the spirit of disclaimers/full disclosure/unbiased journalism, I have to admit that I did not go to a Tea Party yesterday. I wanted to, but got called into work, then called out of work and…

Nick| 4.17.09 @ 9:22AM

Concerned,

"Would Saddam have attacked the US with WMD directly or by proxy? Maybe, but IMO unlikely."

So you were willing to bet all our lives on your uninformed opinion? And if you were wrong, I guess you would have been really, really sorry, huh?

Luckily we had a president who wasn't as much of a gambler as you.

Nick| 4.17.09 @ 9:46AM

Dan,

It is a proven fact the bleeding heart liberals/leftists have no sense of humor. You guys are the nimrods who think the Marx Brothers and Woody Allen are funny, but find no humor in watching the Stooges or Abbott & Costello.

My objections to marxism are the 70+ years of marxist rule in Mexico and the Soviet Union. And all the others: Cuba, N. Korea, et al.

Pingback| 4.17.09 @ 10:59AM

The Hidden Cost of Bank Fees | The Money Saving Fifty (50) links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…commercial banks Banks, investment firms trim borrowing from Fed | ObamaGab Why the Banks Aren’t Making Many Commercial Loans? | Helen … Related Blogs on ridiculous fees The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Black Teddi Hicks » Blog Archive » Indian Stock Market Principles … Related Blogs on teller fees Related Blogs on u s treasury Manufacture This » Blog Archive » Reaction…

Pingback| 4.17.09 @ 11:00AM

The Hidden Cost of Bank Fees | The Money Saving Fifty (50) links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…commercial banks Banks, investment firms trim borrowing from Fed | ObamaGab Why the Banks Aren’t Making Many Commercial Loans? | Helen … Related Blogs on ridiculous fees The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Black Teddi Hicks » Blog Archive » Indian Stock Market Principles … Related Blogs on teller fees Related Blogs on u s treasury Manufacture This » Blog Archive » Reaction…

Pingback| 4.17.09 @ 11:06AM

Als de Democratie goed is en kwaad is het Communisme waarom is Amerika in schuld aan links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…« Migrant Tales Shot in the Dark » Blog Archive » All You Angry Veterans Related Blogs on Time America It’s Time To Play America’s Favorite Game, “Did Your TV Show Live … The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time SeretHD - English » Blog Archive » Once Upon A Time In America Obama to Latin America: Time for a ‘new direction’ | Presidential … There is a world outside North America «…

Pingback| 4.18.09 @ 1:45AM

And the [News] Beat Goes On: Another Sampling of Media Coverage From a Busy Tax Week links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…News op-ed calling for a repeal of the state’s income tax. Andrew Cline, editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union-Leader, cites our State-Local Tax Burden report in a Tea Party column in the American Spectator . The Arizona Republic features our data on state tax burdens. The editorial board at the Wall Street Journal cites our tax counsel, Joseph Henchman, in a column on beer…

NH| 4.19.09 @ 4:16AM

This is the real problem, the purposeful bankrupting of our country on behalf of the bankers. It's a created crisis!
Obama Endorses Soros Plan to Loot America
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9902

M| 4.19.09 @ 5:53PM

It's time for Protestants in America to make their peace with the roman catholic church and unite behind the banner of the holy roman empire to defeat these animals. White men are in their cross hairs they want to demoralize us pushing diversity. Which will eventually destroy our bloodline and break all bonds of fellowship. Right now it's white males next its asianmen until there is a mongrelized/negro world filled with people who can be controlled by withholding food, natural resources and legalizing drugs we are seeing the push but who is behind it ? Stoners! Why would they even consider listening to idiots like that? A: They are "useful idiot's" for the drug companies who want to finish the theft of the American peoples money. White IQ levels have been dropping due to miscegenation and schools filled with so many undesirable races. People don't trust each other it's not Asian whites fighting it's blacks and non-white Hispanics. The NWO is conquering us using Communist tactics like going after our women just like what they are doing in Afghanistan those women were living fine until the westernized feminists started filling their minds with poison. We are on the brink of defeat the majority of white women are lost to liberalism feminism communism and pure stupidity thinking it would be cool to give birth to a diversity baby. Octomom demonstrated we don't need the women who are lost to replenish our ranks. We can pay Indian women to be implanted with the fertilized eggs and carry our children to term. We need to stop getting all those vaccines they are the cause of autism this is in their greedy grand plan of dumbing us down. The clock is ticking

Pingback| 4.20.09 @ 12:00AM

MIAMI TEA PARTY - April 19, 2009 « FactReal links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…4/15/09) MIAMI TEA PARTY - April 15, 2009 The Million Taxpayer March Another Republican booed by Tea Party protesters The Janeane Garofalo of academia Tea Parties about far more than taxes It’s Way Past Tea Party Time Possibly related posts: (automatically generated) MIAMI TEA PARTY - April 15, 2009 National Tax Day Tea Parties A “Virtual Tea Party” … Tea Party at Jax Landing This entry was…

Virginia| 4.21.09 @ 9:53AM

Let's not forget personal property taxes, utility taxes, gas taxes, payroll taxes aside from income tax (FICA), junk food, cigarette, alcohol and other "sin" taxes, cellphone taxes, other "fees" government assesses which are taxes as they are not voluntary.

Look at the explosion of federal payrolls as evidenced by the growth in ever larger bureaucracies (see today's news item on expansion in Americorps program to triple its size). Federal government is the only segment "growing" jobs. Federal job compensation now exceeds private sector compensation: a clearly unsustainable trend. I suspect the only reason current tax levels don't actually spur people to action or provoke violence is that they are still earning an income - any income - presumably working for the government. After all, the government giveth - the government taketh away!

The real pain is yet to come. Trillions in unfunded obligations and annual deficits exceeding the $1.2 trillion mark have YET to be reflected in your tax bills.

We cannot sustain a democratic form of government when more than half the population is dependent on government for its survival and sustenance. What happens in the future when that number dependent on government increases? It will be too late.

Pingback| 4.21.09 @ 6:08PM

Freedom and Liberty Episode 3 | Freedom and Liberty links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…enjoy. Please leave comments or send us an email at freedomlibertyshow at gmail.com Show Notes: (click on links to see the article we reference) Segment 1 - Pirates Segment 2 - Income Taxes Segment 3 - Tea Party ( this link also mentioned) Segment 4 - Homeland Security dubs you as an extremist. Segment 5 - Iran and Israel Segment 6 - Blago hits reality TV, People ok with Big Government (but only for now) and…

Pingback| 4.23.09 @ 7:27AM

Greened to Death links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Hot lead leaves Seal; now there are two. Perhaps the end is evident. Pirates to hell will be Seal-sent. — David Govett Davis, California BECAUSE THEY HAVE GUNS Re: Andrew Cline’s It’s Way Past Tea Party Time: How did it become “fair” for an American family to give to government a third of its income? Let me word the question correctly. What makes us think government can take so much…

Pingback| 5.21.09 @ 4:03PM

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site Home Business News Entertainment News Health News Odd News Political News Sports News Top Stories US News World News Posts Comments

Pingback| 5.22.09 @ 1:55AM

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site Home Business News Entertainment News Health News Odd News Political News Sports News Top Stories US News World News Posts Comments

Pingback| 5.22.09 @ 4:01AM

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site Home Business News Entertainment News Health News Odd News Political News Sports News Top Stories US News World News Posts Comments

Pingback| 5.22.09 @ 7:11AM

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site Home Business News Entertainment News Health News Odd News Political News Sports News Top Stories US News World News Posts Comments

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Homeowner Insurance, on Homeowner Insurance, links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

New homeowners insurance provides you with financial protection in case of disaster and a standard homeowners insurance policy will insure both your home and possessions from a wide range of events including fire, theft and storms.

Pingback| 10.14.09 @ 6:52PM

Investment Banking Bruce Wasserstein, Lazard Chief, Dies | the Bezaleel links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…News Digest » Lazard CEO Bruce Wasserstein dies (Reuters) Related posts on the Wall Street investment banker Whats Happening On Yahoo Buzz Right Now? | Begin SEO with SEO Begin The American Spectator : It’s Way Past Tea Party Time VN:F [1.7.0_948] please wait... Rating: 0.0/ 10 (0 votes cast) VN:F [1.7.0_948] Rating: 0 (from 0 votes) Related Articles No Related Post Leave a Reply Click here to cancel…

Pingback| 10.31.09 @ 8:16PM

Boehner: GOP Has Answers on Health Care Reform | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…three legged dog canine cancer amputation news advice … Freelancers Union Blog » Blog Archive » Freelancers Insurance … One year later …. Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Morning Bell: The Tea Party Movement » The Foundry Related Blogs on Politics Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Women and Politics « Clinton: Israel Making Concessions Add A…

Kimme| 4.24.10 @ 11:46AM

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Pingback| 2.8.10 @ 6:12AM

Book Review: Fired! Tales of the Canned, Canceled, Downsized, & Dismissed links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…review: fired! tales of the canned, canceled, downsized ... Oh NO Ingraham you've done it again! This time to the people of ... The American Spectator : Obama the Destroyer The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time

Trackback| 2.13.10 @ 4:32PM

Know Asian Women, on Know Asian Women, links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Li Han- Hsiang is, along with Chang Cheh, one of the most important and defining directors at Shaw Brothers studio. It was Li who convinced the Shaws to try costumed drama, and Huangmei opera, to great success. If he hadn\'t, the studio might not have become as famous as it is today. Run Run Shaw eventually also put him in charge of props and costumes, a logical choice to anyone having seen his films. He is, if nothing else, a master of art direction. When his films fail to completely engage…

Pingback| 2.16.10 @ 3:29PM

Prepare for Opportunity - From Galley Slave to Multi-Millionaire links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…is to share the universal principles of success so that others can achieve prosperity and the fulfillment of their dreams. Website: Building A Successful Life Related blog posts The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time

Pingback| 2.19.10 @ 10:07PM

Editorial: Nation needs politicians with backbone, willing public to fix national deb links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…about Washington’s spendthrift ways, however, there is little appetite to face the inevitable realities of this circumstance. Read more on The Grand Rapids Press More info: The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time For further information: National Autism Association Invites Facebook Users to ‘Chase the Hope’ for $1,000,000 Medicaid Cuts Put Children with Special Needs, Public…

Pingback| 3.27.10 @ 7:41AM

Obama Hails ‘Real And Major Reform’ In Weekly Address | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Obama hails contributions of 'daring' women | Presidency News … Lawmakers Recess and Prepare to Defend Health Votes – New York … Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on real Real Zaragoza Valencia Live Stream Article: Lyon Nips Real Madrid In Champions League Play | Ahdaq.com | Related Blogs on security Security, Compliance and…

Pingback| 4.1.10 @ 5:54PM

Health Care Law Has Lobbyists Living Large- Shirt Celebrating Health Law Features Bid links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…FAIR Blog » Blog Archive » Seeing Cracks in Big Media's Pro-Israel … OPINION: India Its states and its people « The Himalayan Beacon Health Blog Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on Politics Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Women and Politics Related Blogs on street Commentary » Blog Archive » J Street Loses a Congressional Recruit New Music…

Pingback| 4.7.10 @ 1:27AM

Black Tea Partiers Labeled ‘Traitors’ | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Conservatives « Giovanni's World CWA-NJ Conservatives with Attitude! » Blog Archive » Marketing … Related Blogs on health Related Blogs on obama Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on republican Fabulous Republican Women | THE TYGRRRR EXPRESS Related Blogs on tea-party FAIR Blog » Blog Archive » Distorting the Polling on Tea Party … FOX…

Pingback| 4.7.10 @ 4:54AM

GOP Worried RNC Lacks Funds for Nov. Elections | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…This Week's Most- Read Stories » Car News Articles Blogging On Interest Rates, Economics & Business in New Zealand Related Blogs on obama Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on Politics Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Women and Politics Related Blogs on rnc « Toyota’s Latest Flat Tire Add A Comment Name (required) Mail (will

Pingback| 4.15.10 @ 11:54AM

Tempest in a Tea Party Teacher Probed | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…in a Tea Party Teacher Probed Related Blogs Related Blogs on Business Related Blogs on congress Related Blogs on obama Free Songs Related Blogs on oregon Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on personal The 5 Worst Twenty Something Personal Finance Blunders … Related Blogs on Politics Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Women and Politics Related Blogs…

Pingback| 4.16.10 @ 5:40PM

Police Search for Jindal Campaign Aide Attackers | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…on opinion FAIR Blog » Blog Archive » Seeing Cracks in Big Media's Pro-Israel … OPINION: India Its states and its people « The Himalayan Beacon Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on Politics Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Women and Politics Related Blogs on story Related Blogs on supreme-court Free Lyrics « Critics Say Palin Probe Just…

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Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Daily News Report | The Worlds #1 News Video Site Home Business News Entertainment News Health News Odd News Political News Sports News Top Stories US News World News Posts Comments

Pingback| 5.1.10 @ 9:55AM

Wild Scenarios Emerge in U.K.’s Chaotic Election | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…The American Catholic Liberty's Apothecary » Blog Archive » Liberal Lunacy on Parade This New Climate Report Might Explain Liberal Moonbattery … Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on video Home Security Systems « Illegals Suspected in Deputy Shooting Add A Comment Name (required) Mail (will not be published) (required) Website Blue

Pingback| 5.10.10 @ 8:53AM

What’s the Matter with Utah? | TodaysNews links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…t matter the clothes look at that cupboard – ditted Your Decisions When You Trade On Forex Matter A Lot « From … Matter of time for Frye | Trendy Related Blogs on party The American Spectator : It's Way Past Tea Party Time Related Blogs on senate Related Blogs on video « ‘Iron Man 2′ Blasts Box Office Add A Comment Name (required) Mail (will not be published) (required) Website

philips 5605 | 10.4.10 @ 6:50AM

I think that as bad as the tax burden is, the real focus should be on the out-of-control spending that is done at all government levels.
America needs to rethink what responsibilities the government should have. Too much control requires too much spending.

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