The American Spectator

frost| 3.3.09 @ 7:00AM

Oh, if only that were plausible, but I fear that we're simply outnumbered, by the ill-educated, unmotivated, "Something-for-Nothing" crowd...
What's so unsettling about this conjecture -- I'm the proverbial "eternal optimist" and normally see the Bright Side (not delusional, I hope, but with a degree of reason it's hoped).
No, with the Illegal Aliens, pending "Amnesty" and the pandering give-aways, sorry, but I fear that our once-great country is toast.
God, I hope I'm wrong!

drudge ette obama| 3.3.09 @ 7:22AM

We have met the Ideologue. And he ain't us. I warned and warned my co-workers, friends,
everyone this last year that Obama was trouble. Some just looked at me, some agreed. Now they cry about their 401(k) accounts. Even the Move-on.orgers in the office are less vocal than before. Wait until the boss has to close shop.

What price are we going to pay to show we were right? A big one.

Obama had to act fast, and by god, he has. Who gives a damn about his wife's bare arms? All I see are purple lips and blah blah blah.

Frost: I don't think he'll get the crowds out like last time. Ill-educated and unmotivated people. But will the damage be so immense that recovery seems too far out of reach?

Email www.whitehouse.gov today and give the over-voweled Bastarde a piece of your mind.

Economic Melt Down| 3.3.09 @ 7:43AM

It's odd, that no one realised that the problems was there long before Obama. It was Paulson and Bernanki who started the Bailout. Most people in their right mind knows it's not going to work.

First of all this is the con, it's not a RECESSION it's a DEPRESSION, the Bailout keeps it a recession. But all it's doing is stoking up debt for the future, and America was already in huge debts.

Fannie & Freddie should have been allowed to fail. AIG should be allowed to collapse. AIG will continue to lose mone simply because they insure businesses, and businesses are closing down world wide, they also insure homes and they are in foreclosure, so the revenue is not coming in. Most commerical properties will never re -open.

More and more people shop on line, they dont need retail out lets. Gordon Brown is the last person to listen to he has made a shambles of the British economy.

Jack| 3.3.09 @ 8:09AM

The bailouts are actually prolonging and making the recession worse.
The market began to tank before the bailouts. The real cracks in mkt started to show when the Dem congress announced they would not renew the Bush tax cuts. Check the charts.
We really don't know yet if Obama is an imbecile or a socialist tyrant bent on destroying capitalism. He really has no experience or exposure to capitalism,he has never held a real job,his background is in facilitating handouts to people who will vote for his party and trading smokes for votes, so maybe he just doesnt know any better. On the other hand he did spend over 20 years at the knee of Rev Wright and in his first book called him a great influence on his life. To me his policies seem more borne of Rev Wright than ignorance and I dont know which is scarier. Was his idiotic comment on Las Vegas intentional or the gaffe of a lifetime. Someone tell this rockhead Las Vegas employs more people than auto industry in Detroit that manufactures junk. Someone tell him Las Vegas is the most economical place for companies to have meetings. Do we have any numbers yet on how man people lost their jobs in vegas because of his comments? I am sure the mainstream media will have them any day now.
He has packed his cabinet with people who have no experience in private business but tons of expertise in gaming our political system,avoiding taxes,lobbying,and enriching themselves at mysterious jobs(emanuel). Their only experience is in government, a government that is broken and cause of most of economic problems.
Where is the opposition party? The every gutless Republicans are again doing their best to go along to get along,so they wont be called racists or lampooned by national media.
Its time the republican party purge their ranks of moderates like Snow,Collins,McCain,and Spector. We need people of principle not those looking for TV face time or pork. One of the reasons the Democrat party is so far to the left today and W and Republicans pushed them there by taking up many of the old Dem party themes. The only way to bring the country and Dem party back from the edge of tyranny is for the Republican Party to become fiscally responsible again.

Ryan| 3.3.09 @ 8:26AM

EMD, there were plenty of us who weren't buying Paulson and Bernanke's panic drivel, and had been continually disappointed in Bush's push to "do something" (which, btw, he was essentially letting Obama call the shots at that point).

The bailout is going to make things worse in the long run, and I wonder if we would be better off now if it hadn't had gone through.

frost| 3.3.09 @ 8:56AM

Poor Dubya! Never could understand the "defenders" of Bush, like Limbaugh and Ann Coulter (to name but two), as he was an absolute disaster except in lowering a few taxes (but sure failing to make 'em permanent!!) and naming a couple judges; his conduct of the war was lousy -- the McLellans of the Pentagon should've been replaced with a Petraeus type much, much earlier, not after 3-4 years of total futility...
Yeah, I know, rehashing his past ills aren't fun, but perhaps some future candidate can learn from him what NOT to do -- the wide-open borders and economic idiocy, no discipline over "earmarks" and his multitude of other sins/omitions/dumb moves. He was an awful president, certainly in the "lower 30's" but slightly ahead of LBJ and Jimmy Carter, for sure - - yet, I still feel very much betrayed. And while he stunk-up-the-joint, I remain semi-thrilled that neither AlGore or John Kerry got in.
But, hey, I'm 74 (going on 26 today), and this present fiasco, Obama, won't adversely effect me, at least too much, but our kids? And their children?
God, I wish there were another guy (or woman) with the cojones/principle of Barry Goldwater... around

Mike M| 3.3.09 @ 9:05AM

Like the frog in the frying pan scenario, the american people will respond too late to save themselves. Our Messiah president is allready ending our missle defense in Europe. He wil then kill our economym lickety -split.

frost| 3.3.09 @ 9:07AM

Going to say one thing and say another -- not proofreading -- yes, I really do know how to spell "omission" --
A final word on cynicism -- Costa Rica and Brazil are looking better'n'better every day...

Steele| 3.3.09 @ 9:19AM

Romney 2012? Anyone?

JP| 3.3.09 @ 9:33AM

Jack's comments were correct. The Markets are always forward looking. Since Obama won in November, and since the time Pelosi and Obama promised a "stimulus", the markets have lost nearly 50% of thier value. And I think too many commenters here under estimate the electorate. One should consider the tens of millions of baby-boomers who have seen thier retirement portfolios go up in flames. For a while there was hope that Obama's actions would return at least a portion of thier pre-crash value. These people are within 2-5 years of retirement and there is no way they can do so with the loses they suffered. When this fact and other facts sink in, Obama and the Dems will be in serious trouble.

Ryan| 3.3.09 @ 9:47AM

Romney? Argh. Yankee, Mormon (it's not the religion, it's the intellectual dishonesty of their faith), and not a great conservative record. The SC or LA governors, or maybe even Huckabee (whose book is a pretty good apologetic).

Anthony| 3.3.09 @ 9:48AM

Jack, Obama is an economic illiterate as well as a Marxist ideologue. As his past has proven, he despises the free markets out of his knee jerk ideology, while he has no understanding of how they work. Same with capitalism and limited government. He and his leftist allies in Congress are hell bent on transforming America. Yesterday's climate change march on Washington was a farce, as it followed a major snow storm. These trolls will soon feel the impact of what they have hoped for. May they all freeze in peace. The next march, OUR MARCH, when it finally comes, won't be a pleasant sight for the political elites. We have observed, taken names, and know who you all are. That includes you enablers in the MSM.

Anthony| 3.3.09 @ 10:00AM

Frost, Happy birthday pal. Stick around, Costa Rica and Brazil might be warm, but things are going to heat up here real soon, and it won't be because of arthropogenic global warming, either.

BHO| 3.3.09 @ 10:05AM

People like Marsh make me laugh. He is fast asleep, and as he and the American people sleep their self-assurances that the imperialist Constitution of criminal white European America cannot be tossed asside are entirely in error. It is done already, with nearly full cooperation from both parties, as well as the previous president. We are now entering a new era what my predecessor and his father envisioned in the "New World Order", a global government.
There is NO ONE, even me, even if I wanted to, that can stop it now, as we are bound to everyone else by debt. Keep telling yourself it isn't happening, cover eyes and ears and chant, but it is a done deal.

Nick| 3.3.09 @ 10:31AM

Welcome to the B.O. economy!!!

The spender-in-chief has already taken us back to 1997, but he won't be satisfied until he takes us all the way back to 1929. And he's trying to out-spend commie lovin' FDR in the first 4 months.

And to the bleeding hearts who will retort: "Republicans spent alot too!" Yeah, so what? Who's defending them?

This is like Hitler admonishing Castro about how many people the latter has murdered. As bad as the GOP has been in the past, the democrat party has no equal when it comes to throwing our money down the drain.

Obama Rules| 3.3.09 @ 10:51AM

Nick, it's the DEMOCRATIC party, not DEMOCRAT. If you were edumacated, like liberals are, you'd know this.

Dustoff| 3.3.09 @ 11:00AM

Did anyone notice, another Obama team member has tax problems.
(what's with dems and not paying taxes)

where is the LA times, NYT, NYP and so on....

frost| 3.3.09 @ 11:02AM

To the sage calling itself "BHO," a brief invitation to cast aside your place in these (occasionally) United States, please.
Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia or Ecuador might be most hospitable; Cuba most certainly!

Tim| 3.3.09 @ 11:03AM

Consider this,

We are in difficult times and the Dems have as their leader a very young and gifted politician who Sal Alinsky, if he were alive would be very proud of.

Then you throw in the fact that until very recently non African Americans were cowed into believing that saying anything negative about the big O would declare them racist.

It worked for a long time....two years to be exact.

But what has happened is that the old saying has come to be true once again.

A tiger by any other name is still a tiger.
and more people each day are seeing Mr. Obama for what he really is.

Hence, there should be no surprise at all that Obama's rhetoric doesn't match his actions.

He is a politician.......a very bright one....but still just a plain old everyday politician.....a political hack in the greatest tradition of Chicago Politics.

The only surprise for me is how fast he has let the whole world in on who he really is.

I really thought the mask would have stayed on for a few more months.

I think if you are of a true socialist believer.....it has to be very hard to pretend that you actually love the USA or salute the flag or the generals when deep in your heart you hate everything about them. I mean really, the man had to be shamed into wearing the American Flag pin on his sport coat.

But hey, he was smart and was able to capitalize on current events and got elected.

Unions run their organizing campaigns much in the same fashion. They will promise people anything until they have voted the union in and then reality sinks in and the workers get very little bang for their dues buck but a few Union leaders get to live the good life.
One reason why the Unions are now pushing Card Check because more people are onto their scam...same reason why some Dems want the fairness doctrine....because the last thing you need if your Obama and the Dems is for the masses being educated by some radio truth tellers.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 11:17AM

Ryan,
Explain to me what you mean when you say it is not the religion, but the intellectual dishonesty of their faith? You may disagree strongly with Mormon doctrine but I do not see anything intellectually dishonest about it. I can think for myself just fine and so can Romney who is a very smart logical person. Don't give me this crap about Huckabee, we have him to thank for getting McLame as our worthless candidate by his dirty double team on Romney. Don't think we will forget his slander against Mormons and Romney in attempting to turn southern Christians against him. I think the best ticket for us would be a Romney/Jindal ticket in 2012 and it is time to put religious bigotry behind us in picking our candidates.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 11:22AM

I should also mention Ryan that Limbaugh called Huckabee out on his slander along with others like Mark Levin. Huckabee has never apologized and until he does, I will consider him just another slick talking Governor from Arkansas that should never see the inside of the White House.

MX| 3.3.09 @ 11:30AM

Obama rules?? that is on oxymoron if there ever was one. the only thing Obama will end up ruling will be the smoldering ruins of nation he destroyed. Him and his other "democtatics."

Nick| 3.3.09 @ 11:45AM

B.O. Rules,

I covered this yesterday in the Rush thread. In case you're a tipical liberal leach on welfare and are too lazy to look it up, here is that post:
3.2.09 @ 5:15PM
"Calling it the democrat party really, really bugs you bleeding heart libs, doesn't it? I 've seen Chris Matth-spews almost come to tears when a conservative calls it the democrat party. The same hypocrite refuses to use the label Pro-Lifer'.

"As Rush [asked] years ago, does this mean we have to call you twits democratics?"

stefie| 3.3.09 @ 11:54AM

Our only hope is the congressional elections next year. I pray for a huge backlash against the dim-o-crats and make NObama a lameduck. Purple lips and all.

Nick| 3.3.09 @ 11:56AM

Todd,

I agree with you about Mr. Huckabee. He panders to the MSM as much as McLame does. Which is a shame, I liked him for years. When he lost all that weight, some of it was from his brain. Also, his show is unwatchable.

I disagree about Mr. Romney. He can't be trusted on the life issue. And the universal health care plan he implemented in the Soviet Socialist Republik of Massachusetts is not conservative. I just don't trust the man.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 12:57PM

Nick,
I think at heart Romney is conservative and does not support abortion in any way though some try to paint him as pro-choice as he did not take a strong pro-life stance in Massachusetts. Massachusetts is a very liberal State and running as a conservative would render him virtually unelectable so he had to be more moderate than he would be on a national stage. I don't think it is a fair charge to call him a flip flopper, as a national candidate outside of Massachusetts it is only natural he would take more conservative views because this country is much more conservative than Massachusetts.

The reason he implemented the health care plan in Massachusetts is to try to retain some form of private health insurance because the people in the State demanded universal care so he did the best he could I believe. It has not been very successful from what I see but it would have happened with or without him and would certainly be worse if the current Governor came up with the plan. I think some of the criticism about the plan is fair and your point that it is not conservative is true but you have to take it in context for the situation. Is it reasonable to expect that he could enact a conservative agenda in Massachusetts?

My point is that without the shackles of representing the socialist Massachusetts, he can be a true conservative now and I do believe that is his true self. Now I am not completely set on Romney and thinking he is the only option, I am very favorable towards Jindal if he were to decide to run in 12. Fact is I would be very happy if Jindal won and Romeny was made Treasurer where I think he could do an outstanding job and reverse the damage from the likes of Paulson and Geithner.

If I may share part of an article from his late great Father Marion Romney that I find very relevant for today.

I clipped the following article from the Reader’s Digest some time ago. It reads:

“In our friendly neighbor city of St. Augustine great flocks of sea gulls are starving amid plenty. Fishing is still good, but the gulls don’t know how to fish. For generations they have depended on the shrimp fleet to toss them scraps from the nets. Now the fleet has moved. …

“The shrimpers had created a Welfare State for the … sea gulls. The big birds never bothered to learn how to fish for themselves and they never taught their children to fish. Instead they led their little ones to the shrimp nets.

“Now the sea gulls, the fine free birds that almost symbolize liberty itself, are starving to death because they gave in to the ‘something for nothing’ lure! They sacrificed their independence for a handout.

“A lot of people are like that, too. They see nothing wrong in picking delectable scraps from the tax nets of the U.S. Government’s ‘shrimp fleet.’ But what will happen when the Government runs out of goods? What about our children of generations to come?

“Let’s not be gullible gulls. We … must preserve our talents of self-sufficiency, our genius for creating things for ourselves, our sense of thrift and our true love of independence.”2

The practice of coveting and receiving unearned benefits has now become so fixed in our society that even men of wealth, possessing the means to produce more wealth, are expecting the government to guarantee them a profit. Elections often turn on what the candidates promise to do for voters from government funds. This practice, if universally accepted and implemented in any society, will make slaves of its citizens.

The TAX TRICK| 3.3.09 @ 1:27PM

The biggest question can China continue to buy American debts. China has between 28-30 Million people unemployed and rising. The Bailouts is causing too much debt which is why the economy in in grave problems, to add to it will make the situation worse, not better long or short term.

Tax will have to rise, and that is direct and indirect tax. What they don't tell the people is what they can't tell the people is that you move tax from one place to another, so the poor will be taxed on what they buy which is sales tax, which does nothing to economic recovery. If people are too poor to shop companies close down.

World Rescue Needed| 3.3.09 @ 2:02PM

If America and the world is to survive, they don't have a choice, but to form a new government away from the corrupt system they have now before its too late. The rest of the world will follow.

What we have here is a plot to bring down world governments, using an economic stratergy, to Bankrupt the entire world.

America will see a total collapse in 12 months time of the dollar failure, because id China can no longer buy American debts due to 28-30 Million people unemployed which will create economic instability.

Dubai the oil rich country is bankrupt and is now a goast town. Japan is on her knees, and China will not be able to supply Walmart soon, due to no demand for foreign manufactured goods in imports. Oil prices is set to keep falling to the point there is no point in paying anyone to take it out of the ground, in other words cost is more to take it out of the ground no profits for the oil producers. The idea is to bankrupt Opec countries one has gone, and there is several to go.
What is the point of this, it to ensure when the demand goes up there is only a few in business and the price will be high, its about control of the most important market in the world.

America has its own supplies but can't touch it because of the agreements signed in the 60's and 70's legal and binding America buys oil from the Arabs, and the Arabs buys American debts. If these people are not producing they can't buy American debts they would bankrupt them selves trying to buy them, and what for?.

The result of these problems is every one goes bankrupt at roughly the same time. Congress men and women are aware of these things but are unable to tell the public. So the Bailouts will continue till America becomes so indebted that the global economic collapses.

The people who are behind this are are like the Bankers, but the master mind behind them and the Government are 100 times worse. This is not a Recession or a Depression this is a plot to bring down the entire world.

They are taking away your guns and amo for a reason and the military on the streets is to inforce martial law to control the masses. This is not a recession it's a global take over, economically militarily and politically. Each person in America is in debt at 60'000 each for money you never borrowed. We are headding to global collapse, and Eastern Europe is asking to be bailed out by Germany and Germany says no. The whole of the Eastern Block of Europe is set to become the new Iceland bankrupt. Britain and America will Go down together. If it's not stopped it's over we become slaves to pay back the money borowed and trapped into slavery.

Howard| 3.3.09 @ 2:05PM

I've read on this page where some of my allies are claiming the Rev. Wright is the intellectual force behind Obama. I respectfully disagree. I believe Obama was trained by Saul Alinsky. Alinsky was a leftist agitator in Chicago. He was the Godfather of the "Community Organization" racket. Also Obama was influenced by Bill Ayers. During the campaign, Obama and his minions were making this relationship seem obscure, as if they met on line at the Post office or something,the deli counter. Not a chance. Obama is a leftist, who would like to see a Euro Socialist form of system, if not an outright Cuban style system.

Marc Jeric| 3.3.09 @ 2:16PM

Howard here has touched the crux of our problem with Abu Hussein from Kenya - that $9 billion in the porkulus bill destined for ACORN browshirts and similar "community organizations". The translation of the "soviet" in the name of the defunct USSR is "community organization".

WB| 3.3.09 @ 2:25PM

To BHO:

Have to agree with Frost on this one -- if the US is so criminal, please hop the next flight out.

Oh, and while you're at it, please get some new material -- "the imperialist Constitution of criminal white European America"? Gag!! Get some new material, dude, that stuff's straight out of the Sixties ....

Pat| 3.3.09 @ 2:50PM

Typical sermon to the choir, the author first notes that polls show Americans are majority conservative, particularly economic conservatives. Then the author asks the logical question of how those numbers can possibly reconcile to Obama's support among 80% of American voters. But his answer is Obama is lying, he's slick and fooling these simple-minded Americans.

When will Conservatives face up to the fact that Americans aren't conservatives at "heart", they like and respond to the Democrats' message. But what about the polls - yeah, what about them? If Americans as a group are that stupid, claiming they're uniformly Conservative in their politics is no great prize. Rather, the real answer is they're not Conservative in the majority, the polls are giving a false impression.

Check out the Democratic bastions, the smoke stack towns of the Midwest. Voters there are overwhelmingly blaming Republicans for opposing Obama. Despite Obama holding the White House and supported by his party's majority in both houses of Congress, the voters of Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, etc. are still convinced the Republicans are somehow stopping forward progress. And with the Republican Party as feeble as it is, that amount of self-delusion is incredible.

If Obama sees an eventual end to the recession, he gets all the credit. If his plans don't work, the Republicans will be blamed. Conservatives should take no comfort in absurd polls, you're outnumbered and out-maneuvered, in fact you're just plain "out". Gathering around the Conservative campfire and singing songs may be all that's left us for now - and we can certainly count on the majority of voters to whine when they don't get enough free handouts but that doesn't make them Conservatives.

Note on Romney| 3.3.09 @ 2:59PM

A person who worked for him for several years told me,not only is Romney the smartest guy in every room but he is an inspirational leader.
Instead we run John McCain. You know the guy who did campaign finance reform to cover up his role in the Keating 5. That reminds me,what ever happened to the Countrywide 6,you know the 6 dems including Dodd who took bribes from the Tan Man in the form of sweetheart loans? McCain is also the moron who agreed with Obama on proper tire inflation as a way to solve the world energy crisis.
Biden didnt get the nomination because the same media who doesnt think its a big deal that Obama spent 20 years in the church of hate mongering racist nazi, does not approve of Mormons, and either do our forgiving right wing christian brethern. So we got stuck with two horrible candidates and the guy with style won.

frost| 3.3.09 @ 3:05PM

To clarify, so that BHO, any neo-Marxist and associated Terminal Bed Wetters have a more complete picture, this "criminal white European" has a son (also a person-of-pallor) who will marry a black person of the female persuasion -- he's a mighty fortunate guy, getting the better part of the deal, believe me.
And, sure, I invite him to depart these shores(with alacrity even).
We Also may leave -- but only if Obama/Pelosi/etc's tax increases drive us out.
You see, I have paid my UNfair share of IRS taxes (in excess of 50% prior to Reagan's tax-cut of '82), and if we actually do become the new Socialist Soviet as proposed/designated by the present Marxist inhabitant of the White House, we will depart for the Quepos or Jaco' area of CostaRica, or possibly the Urca neighborhood of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil; Florianopolis maybe...
To wrap this up -- as a Deist and Libertarian-leaning Independent (and veteran) married to a college professor, you betcha, I'm mighty serious.
Thus, to BHO and his fellow-travelers, kindly get lost.

Cerulean| 3.3.09 @ 3:33PM

@ WNR...Your comments are truly the distilled essence of Republicanism. All the moderating influences have been cooked off. Any sense of responsibility to the country which might leaven the party is gone. The GOP are free to be themselves, and this is what we see.

The conservatives have painted the Republican party into an extremist corner, and as long as El Rushbo sits on his throne in that corner it's going to get pretty uncomfortable for any Republican not safely ensconced in a deep-red House district.

This is the logical conclusion of a "play to the base" strategy, which Karl Rove in his architecting days may not have foreseen. The base gets baser, and everybody else runs for their lives.

By all means take your band of Rushpo delusional hypnotized lemmings and move to Arkansas, or any other backward red state, and sucede from the Union. Oh and take that psycho witch Ann Coulter with you and she and the Dalai Ruspo can be king and queen of your little deluded little country.

Just one last question, where was all this vitrilolic outrage when the last leader of the free world, Dubya, was steering this country with both hands on the wheel in this direction and got us into this mess in the first place? This didn't happen in 4 weeks you pathetic bunch of whiners.

BTW I hear Jet Blue is having a special to AR. Adious.

frost| 3.3.09 @ 3:35PM

Lest there be any misunderstanding, I was suggesting that BHO and his BedWetting contingency to leave for those Marxist countries........
NOT my son and his fiancé, though I have cautioned them to think of other options as their economic potential comes to fruition. Having been to those aforementioned countries, I know the areas -- and the tax advantages could be extraordinary.

frost| 3.3.09 @ 3:42PM

Cerulean -- hope you'll join BTO. Or, if you're as smart as it appears you Think you are, by all means stick around and pay those hideous tax-increases that the Saul Alinsky student (and the anti-American "Reverend" Wright, terrorist Bill Ayres and even Frank Marshall Davis, his earliest Communist mentor), neo-Marxist Obama seek.
I sure won't argue that Dubya was a lousy president, but it appears that Obama has possibly already outspent all the previous presidents, combined!?! Lenin, Trotsky and even Joe Stalin would be proud of him.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 3:49PM

Just to make a correction, Marion is actually Mitt's Uncle and not his Father like I mistakenly said. His Father is George, the former Governor of Michigan and candidate for President in 1968 as many of you are doubtless aware.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 4:11PM

Cerulean,
You got us, we are extremist because we believe in a free market system and don't think it is wise to run up trillion plus deficits that Obama is planning and raise taxes in the middle of a recession all in the name of "fiscal responsibility". Me thinks that you are looking for your government handout and take from those that actually produce something. Like your ideologically twisted socialist loving comrade jharp, I have no doubt you are gleeful as Obama continually assaults free enterprise and the stock market.

This paragraph by the author cuts to the chase of what Obama is really all about : "Clearly, President Obama understands he can't achieve his radical reorganization of America's economy by telling people that's what he actually intends. Rather he hides his real policy agenda behind a screen of dense rhetorical smoke." Like any good Marxist believes, the end always justifies the means.

Ryan| 3.3.09 @ 4:50PM

My "intellectual dishonesty" line toward Mormonism comes mostly from my MA in history....and how Mormonism has practically been disproven in many aspects on its historical claims (wheels, horses, etc). Part of the issue is theological, but mostly I cannot completely trust someone who doesn't look into his faith completely enough to know those things. Most people who don't understand their theology and historical claims don't get the objections of those of us who do.

My main fear for both Romney and Huckabee is that they would wind up with more of the "compassionate Conservatism" that winds up being big-government Republicanism.

Cerulean, I'm going to echo here what Todd stated, and it's something that I feel that you need to seriously answer - what is extreme about wanting low taxation, small government, individual freedom combined with responsibility, and living babies?

Cerulean| 3.3.09 @ 5:10PM

@ Todd| 3.3.09 @ 4:11PM

"...don't think it is wise to run up trillion plus deficits..."

Hey Todd

You and your band of FP's just don't happpen to have any numbers say approx. 'trillion$$$$$'s that the Co-Meander in Chief W spent on proving Iraq had weapons of mass D-stuk-zhun do ya?...speaking of rhetorical smoke. Seems to me 8 years ago we had a budget surplus, remeber that you fiscal conservatives? Not to mention to toll of lives and on the families which is far beyond a monetary cost.
also...
"Me thinks that you are looking for your government handout and take from those that actually produce something"

Wrong again Todd.
I'm a successful entrepreneur who owns a manufacturing company. Just on this side of the fence trying to understand how you people think. I would be far more comfortable of course over at the dKos but I haven't needed my cholesteral meds since I found you all.

MA2CA...btw you should ask Mass Regubs what they think of Mittens.

Miss ya JHARP or are you just out getting vacinated? fyi...Tetnus is a good one to get around this neck of the woods.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 5:35PM

Ryan,
Forgive me if your MA in history doesn't impress me, plenty of MA history people out there would deny the existence of Jesus Christ or just about anything that is in the Old Testament. Faith cannot be proved by history but by prayer and experience. Those that call Mormonism a cult are either liars or do not know what they are talking about as self examination of our beliefs is always encouraged. As it says it the New Testament, by their fruits you shall know them. Romney has a career in excellence in whatever he has done though there is only so much much he can do for a very liberal Mass, he is too good to waste on the leftist rabble who have controlled that state for decades.

While it is true we make the claim that we are the only Church led by a true Prophet, we do not put down other Christian sects that have an honest belief in the divinity of Jesus and strive to build upon common beliefs. Our common cause is much greater than to squabble endklessly about the differences in doctrine. I certainly have no problem with Jindal's Catholicism or would question his "intellectual dishonesty" for Catholic beliefs that I disagree with. We need to band together to defeat the likes of Cerulean and get the best candidates that can represent our cause unlike McCain. I doubt you will get much of an answer from him as we know his type and how they think. He probably owns a Che t-shirt and proudly displays his solidarity for the mass murderer.

I don't think Romney can be categorized in the "compassionate Conservatism" camp and certainly did not campaign as such. Huckabee is much closer to that kind of Republican from what I am able to tell.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 5:47PM

So what do you manufacture Cerulean other than lies and leftist propaganda?

Nick| 3.3.09 @ 5:56PM

Todd,

That was great defense of Romney, but after 8 years of President Bush I'm a little gun-shy. Actions speak louder than words to me. When I looked into Romney 18 months ago, I kept saying to myself, "why didn't he run for gov. here in Michigan in '02?" He could've run as a Pro-Life conservative without any caveats whatsoever. If life was as important as he said it was to him, this was the logical choice. It will take alot to convince me he is not more politician than conservative.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 6:16PM

Nick,
Maybe Mitt thought he could do something to help Mass and considered it his home. Sure he could have moved back to Michigan but Mass was his home and who wouldn't prefer Boston to Detroit? We will see how things play out and what Romney does in the next few years but I do not think there is anything to fear from him from a conservative point of view.

Obama Drools| 3.3.09 @ 6:46PM

That a droll troll would attempt to clarify something that needs no clarification is humorous.

But of course, it's the democratic party and then we have the republicanic party. Makes sense.

Go away and get your emperor some new clothes.

Obama Drools| 3.3.09 @ 6:48PM

Cerulean---blue pigment.

Take out the --ment and you have ----

Somnolence| 3.3.09 @ 6:53PM

All of the above comments solidify my position that Palin is the only candidate I can support in 2012.

Cerulean| 3.3.09 @ 6:55PM

Still waiting Todd for you and your FP's to answer my question. Anyone have the balls to put up the $$$$ numbers on the cost of that war?

Speaking of 'lies and propoganda'...it's the GOP's mandra, so you should feel very comfortable recognizing it there, Todd my man.

What I will enjoy most of all is seeing how you bunch of desperado-do's figure out who will run in 2012. The party is so farcifully fractured (as seen in above comments as an example) you guys/gals will never be able to be on the same page to figure out who's on first. With Dalai Limpo calling the shots otta be a good show. Sort of like a nice pit-bull fight, with and without libstick.

All us Dems will be buying Orville Redenbacker stock that's for sure. Let the games begin.

Cerulean | 3.3.09 @ 7:12PM

@ Somnolence| 3.3.09 @ 6:53PM

"All of the above comments solidify my position that Palin is the only candidate I can support in 2012."

Yeeesssssssss (as in Harry met Sally Yeeesssssss) Please make it Palin.

Ryan| 3.3.09 @ 7:38PM

Todd,

I thought you may be Mormon.
The problem with any conversation here is that we have different definitions of "Jesus," "God," "Holy Spirit," and other Biblical terms. I agree, an MA isn't the hardest thing out there to get.

Here's the rub - if there are any historians out there who aren't Mormons, yet hold any of the historical claims of the book of Mormon as true, I have yet to hear of one. You find some who may uphold some historical claims of the Bible...but you don't with the Book of Mormon.

Faith can absolutely be proven by history - the entire BIBLE - if taken at its word, and even sometimes not - is about how history backs the faith of those who follow God.

I have examined the beliefs of the Mormon faith, and, as a Christian, find it wanting. I find the tales of chariots and horses in the New World without any historical and archaeological evidence. I find salvation by works a wanting theology. I find the consistently changing nature of what Mormonism teaches - many times since its inception, from ideas on Africans to plural marriage - disturbing.

I do not call Mormonism in error blindly. I only wish that Mormons would deeply look into the claims of its critics, instead of dismissing them as persecution.

Politically, we are allies. I will shake the hand of a man who votes as I do, and seek political common ground. I cannot initially support one for President.

Poetic Justice| 3.3.09 @ 7:42PM

NBC/WSJ Poll: Americans Prefer Democrats To Fix The Economy

Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:52:03 PM PST
The new NBC/WSJ poll is out and it ain't pretty if you're a Republican. 60% approve of Obama's performance including the economy. 84% of the public thinks Barack Obama inherited the economic mess. And conservative attempts at linking Obama with yesterday's Dow aren't working. Bottom line:

President Barack Obama enjoys widespread backing from a frightened American public for his ambitious, front-loaded agenda, a new poll shows.

He is more popular than ever, Americans are hopeful about his leadership, and opposition Republicans are getting drubbed in public opinion, the new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll finds.

An important number from the new poll is that 51% want the government to do more, and 40% want the government to do less. No surprise there, if you remember the exit polls.

Handkies anyone.

jack| 3.3.09 @ 8:01PM

I am a Christian but I will support a Mormon,an Atheist,a Moslem,or Jew for president as long as he is conservative and fiscally responsible.
Never forget that 40lb bible old Willy used to tote around every Sunday. I would support Obama in a heartbeat if he was conservative or fiscally responsible even though he spent 20 years in a Church run by a hatemongering nazi.
One reason we are all miserable right now is because many on our side did not like Mr.Romneys religion and we got stuck with a loser of a candidate,a candidate who did everything in his power to destroy the W administration.

Ryan| 3.3.09 @ 9:11PM

It wasn't just Romney's Mormonism - it was his lack of conservative credentials. He was the governor of Taxachusetts, and may have talked a good game on the campaign, but really didn't have a conservative governance. Two flaws that wound up both being fatal.

He may BE a conservative, but never really proved it.

Todd| 3.3.09 @ 11:48PM

Ryan,
Paul himself said faith without works is dead and it is our belief that only through Jesus Christ we are saved but it takes effort on our part. Nothing inconsistent about that. I don't really want to get into the different issues but poligamy has been practiced by God's chosen people in different times when commanded like the great Prophet Abraham among others. We are a law abiding people though and it has not been practiced for well over a century within the Church itself.

Now maybe there are some questions regarding his conservatism from his time as Governor of Mass but if he ran as a full fledged Conservative, he would have had no chance whatsoever. Whatever his flaws, I think we can agree he was much better than McCain though he may well have lost anyway with things being the way they were. I think he will show over the next few years that he is a reliable conservative and will work hard to promote the cause. I certainly would haved liked to see him debate Obama on economic issues as I think he could tear him to shreds if allowed by the moderator. Instead we got McCain babbling nonsense because he didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

Carl| 3.4.09 @ 6:13AM

I love reading the comments on conservative websites. You people don't realize how far out of the mainstream you are. I say keep up the good work of marginalizing your party for the next 2 decades.

Mike Kuyel| 3.4.09 @ 6:49AM

The DEMOCRAT party has ruined this country.

O-Zero is leading us right over the cliff. And to those who voted for him? I hope you are the first to lose your jobs, your cars, your houses...you deserve.

The DEMOCRAT party and Dear Leader have ruined us.

Mike Kuyel| 3.4.09 @ 6:51AM

p.s. PLEASE NO MORE ROMNEY.

We need a real conservative, not some slick plastic banana. No Huckabee either.

TE| 3.4.09 @ 6:54AM

It ironic that Obama’s proposed redistribution of income is labeled as socialist.
In fact, over the last decade income was redistributed from the bottom 95% to the top and it was done by collaborating with actual communists in China. The Wal-Mart fortune is based on collaborating with communists in China.

angellight| 3.4.09 @ 7:44AM

Although there was hardly any reporting done on this by the Republican main stream media, it was George Bush who pushed for minority home buying.... not Clinton as they love to distort about and gave Speculators the go ahead to get minorities to buy homes in the hundreds of thousands.

Source: Dateline: 06/18/02

"Calling a home the "foundation for families and a source of stability for communities," President Bush has proposed three new initiatives designed to enhance existing federal home buyer assistance programs by helping African- and Hispanic-Americans buy homes. According to the White House, fewer than half of all African and Hispanic Americans currently own their homes, compared to nearly three-fourths of white Americans. "We must begin to close this homeownership gap by dismantling the barriers that prevent minorities from owning a piece of the American dream," said the President in a nationwide radio address. To close the homeownership gap, President Bush proposed legislation funding the following new initiatives:

American Dream Down Payment Fund
This program would provide money to qualified low-income families to assist in making the down payment on a home. "The single greatest hurdle to first time homeownership is a high down payment requirement that can put a home out of reach," said President Bush. White House analysts estimate that the American Dream Fund will assist some 40,000 low-income families annually in making down payments on homes.

Tax Credits to Create Affordable Housing
This proposed initiative would provide home-builders and developers with nearly $2.4 billion in tax credits for building affordable single-family housing in distressed areas. The tax credits would help make 200,000 new affordable homes available to low-income buyers over the next five years.

Home Buyer Education
To assist home buyers deal with the complexity and difficulty of the purchasing process, this program would provide funds to agencies working to better educated first-time home buyers. Consumers would be advised of their rights and responsibilities as home buyers, and trained to recognize and avoid abusive and unscrupulous lending practices. "Financial education and housing counseling can help protect home buyers against abuses, greatly improve the loan terms they are offered, and help families get through tough times with their homes intact," said President Bush "Owning a home lies at the heart of the American dream," Bush said. "My approach to broadening home ownership focuses on empowering people to help themselves and to help one another."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa061902a.htm

And because there were no Regulations to protect said homebuyers who had a balloon interest at the end, well we see what has happened, and they still want to blame the homebuyers instead of the scam perpetrated by lenders who first lowered interest rates to put people into homes then raised their interest rates so they could no longer afford their homes. Someone should go to jail for this!

Andrew P| 3.4.09 @ 8:07AM

The deeper we sink into the Depression, the more the public will support Democrats. The more dependent everyone is on the government for their very survival, the more they will be compelled to vote for Team Obama and his party - even if Team Obama gets the blame for making the Depression worse. I think most people expect that Great Depression levels of unemployment and market collapse are inevitable and unstoppable. No matter what actually happens in the near term, Obama wins. The only way Obama can lose is he IS successful in inflating away the Depression. Hyperinflation will be Jimmy Carter redux, and will get his party unelected.

Ryan| 3.4.09 @ 8:43AM

Angellight - Bush also tried to push for reforms in fannie and freddie, as well as other republicans, but were rebuffed by Dodd and Barney Frank. The CRA is older than most people think.

Ryan| 3.4.09 @ 8:51AM

Todd - you're right about the first part for Paul, but wrong about the second - "For by grace are you saved through faith, not by works, so that no man can boast." Works are a result of true faith - I do good because I believe, not because it gives me favor with God. Christ already does that "work" for me.

If I can do something to work my way to heaven, what do I need God for?

The other part is this - there has NEVER been a condoned action of polygamy in scripture. It has NEVER had good result in scripture - look at all the trouble that any plural marriage or relationship caused in scripture and you'll see.

And it doesn't matter that the Mormon church got away from it only after outside pressure. It's a drastic enough change because it was a core belief of the theology, particularly at the time.

Again, PLEASE look into the critical claims with an open mind. There's plenty there to raise some questions.

Peter| 3.4.09 @ 10:22AM

Obama and the Democrats will succeed in pursuing their agenda because our problems are so massive the public at-large will accept that the blame should be put on Republicans for the next four years. Even if problems fester they will, in my opinion, be able to buy time by suggesting simply that more time is needed due to their ambitious goals that will serve the country well in the long-run. I have heard and spoken with many people I would normally think would see things differently but they have bought into this idea.

They will succeed further by creating new constiuencies or expanding old ones (unions) who will become dependent on government largesse and will vote in huge numbers for Democrats.

Additional success will result from the very poor spokesmen among the Republican ranks whose utterances about socialism and bland statements about tax cuts no longer resonate. While what they say may be true it must be articulated much better with examples in the real world that demonstrate the validity of their statements.

The failure to gain leverage from the widespread corruption and hyporcrisy already amply seen from Democrats alone is an indication of how weak the GOP has become in developing, honing and getting out a coherent message. Everything they have to say has become little more than cliches, including what is coming from the mouth of Rush and co.

So the only thing that now seems able to revive the opposition in a real way is for Obama and the Democrats to fail, something that will hurt us all but is nevertheless likely to occur, by which time the damage done may be so deep and longlasting that conservatives may wish not to take on the task of dealing with them.

Norman| 3.4.09 @ 10:27AM

Obama did go through the budget line by line.He just doesn't think that funding to study pig odors and for Hawaiian rowing clubs is wasteful spending. What's the problem here?

Todd| 3.4.09 @ 11:51AM

Ryan,
We believe exactly the same thing about being saved through the grace of Christ so lets not get into semantics over wording. You have to accept Christ and be baptized and try to keep the commandments and repent when we mess up. You are wrong about polygamy never being condoned in scripture, Abraham was expressly commanded by God to do so and I do not think you can say the results were not good unless you refute scripture. For someone with a MA in history, you really missed the boat with that statement.

Believe me Ryan, I have heard it all and I fully understand our history, just not the slanderous history some people make it out to be by distorting facts. Fact is whatever you may disagree with about Mormons, we are a very reliable conservative community and overwhelmingly support conservative causes. And for those who call Romney a slick plastic banana or whatever, people that know him and have worked with him will disagree with you completely. He is as far from the typical politician as you can get, he doesn't need any money and could live a wonderful life of ease but is working hard to help the Republican Party in every way he can.

Howard Ino| 3.4.09 @ 12:20PM

Mr. Obama believes that he has a mandate to turn America into a Fascist state.

He has no clue of the anger simmering in the homes of small business owners... those targeted for his MASSIVE TAX and SPEND POLICY!

I recently told my employees (we are a very small company) that the Cap and Trade legislation along with massive spending and a pending huge health tax on small businesses will financially cripple our family business so much, that we will probably be forced to scale our business back to just our family. They are friends and I told them that if something else comes along, I would not blame them for accepting another job and will give them glowing endorsements.

Small Business owners MUST coalesce or this President will destroy our economy as we know it... We will be working for Big Government in the not too distant future that man and Congress have their way!

megapotamus| 3.4.09 @ 12:45PM

The simple fact is that socialist policies have no hope, none, of achieving their stated purpose and they are certain to produce adverse effects that outweigh even their bloated price tag. Cap and trade is not the wrong solution to any problem. Neither were the home lending policies that, although created by Carter and turned militant under Clinton absolutely were practiced and enlarged under Bush. Sure, he came up with some reforms that might have put off the current crisis had they been adopted but he had already admitted the Commie premise in the 2000 election. "When people are hurting government has got to move.... " This is from the supposed conservative party. The Democrats made plenty of headway with objections to spending and corruption electorally but anyone who has been awake for more than ten minutes knows that curing spending and corruption with Democrats is like curing lung cancer with Pall Malls. That is the hard lesson all citizens are learning right now. Fear not that Obama will succeed. This crap never does. And those hoping for handouts will find there is nothing to hand out. Necessity is a mother but it will come. It will get tough out there but we are talking months, not years.

Cerulean, for someone so convinced of your own genius your spelling and grammar are hilarious! This is a parody of the amalgamation of confidence and incompetence that typifies the left, right? Gotta be.

Ryan| 3.4.09 @ 12:49PM

Tom,

Actually, it IS a difference over semantics. There is a lot of terminology that Mormons have changed the definition of within their religion.

"Grace" is unmerited favor. I cannot do anything to earn it - including being baptized. My salvation is dependant on Christ's work on the cross, not on something I attempt to do. HE leads me to Himself, and everything that results is through His grace, not by my efforts. Scipture is pretty clear that I am COMPLETELY unable to work toward God - by grace, through faith, not by works.

Your definition of "Christ" is separate from mine as well. Per scripture, Jesus is neither the "brother" of Satan nor completely separate from the Father. Neither is the Father the product of another union with other "wives," but the Creator of all REALITY, who exists in and of Himself (hence the term "I AM," which implies self-existence.

If polygamy was condoned, you have to point it out. Abraham - in Gen 16 and 21 - has no explicit command from God - just Sarai - to marry Hagar, and the result of that union was Ishmael, whose children have ALWAYS been at odds with Israel.

In the Bible, polygamous unions have NEVER come to a good end, and have typically brought bad results. David, Jacob, and Solomon are 3 other examples.

Todd| 3.4.09 @ 1:44PM

It is Todd actually Ryan. Are you a born-again? I remember being virtually assaulted by born-agains serving my Mission and telling me all you have to do is say you accept Jesus to be saved and our works do not matter one bit. That is falsehood of the philosophy of man mingled with scripture, a careful reading of the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus makes it very clear that obedience and repentance are necessary after we accept Jesus for the grace of the atonement to be effective for us. Those who proclaim they accept Jesus but feel free to live their lives however they please will not be saved because God cannot save those in their sins.

There you go using the Huckabee tactic he used so slanderously against Romney saying we believe Satan is the brother of Jesus. Satan was cast out of heaven along with the 1/3 host of heaven. If he had not rebelled, he would have come to Earth just like the rest of us. They were not brothers in the sense we have brothers here but they knew each other before the Earth's creation so you could say they were spirit brothers of a sort (as everyone on earth is) with Jesus being the first born. That is scriptural however some choose to twist it. Satan was the original authoritarian who wanted complete power and all glory for himself. Jesus on the other hand wanted God to have all the glory and would sacrifice himself for us and give us freewill to make the choice to accept his sacrifice or not.

As conservatives, I find the War in Heaven to be very instructive and how we must be willing to fight against the authoritarian's like Obama who tell us they need all power so they can make life fair and safe. Just like Satan, it is a lie for their own lust for power and glory. Conservatism is all about preserving our rights to live our lives how we so choose and to take the consequences for our own decisions whether good or bad. No doubt The Declaration of Independence was inspired of God to inspire us of our God given potential and the freewill we possess for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Ryan| 3.4.09 @ 2:39PM

Todd (not Tom, sorry),

Sadly, you state something that many Christians DO get wrong, and is also somewhat commonly misinterpreted from several ends.

It is true - scripturally - that our works DON'T matter for salvation - as Paul says in Ephesians, "by grace, through faith, not by works." Our sin is SO awful that no amount of working can get rid of it.

However, it does NOT give us license to continue sinning and to not do good works. True faith and repentance PRODUCES the desire for good works to glorify God. Works are not a means toward gaining salvation, but the RESULT of salvation.

Without the grace of God, I am completely unable to turn to Him - scripture is pretty clear on the utter inability of man to come to God (there is none righteous, not even one...) that makes anything that I do to strive toward salvation meaningless (the righteousness of man is as filthy rags).

Notice that I put "brother" in regards to Satan in quotations - I know the supposed relationship that Mormons have between Christ and Satan, and find it entirely wanting. Christ could not have been perfect and able to fulfill the law, nor able to take my place on that Cross - nor able to rise from the grave - without being both fully God and fully man. To lift Satan to that level - or to bring Christ down to Satan's - is one of the great separations between our faiths. There is NO equality inherent in scripture that allows Satan to equate himself with Christ - Christ practically invokes His own Divinity in rebuking Satan (you shall not put the LORD your God to the test).

It is Christ's atonement which allows God to shower me in His grace - even to bring me to Himself.

I don't WANT a God that I can reach through my own efforts. It's too easy, because it means I don't need Him all the more. I WANT a God, who is Pure and Holy, beyond me that abhors my sin so much that the ONLY way it can be removed is through death - not by "balancing the scales." Sin cannot be balanced, because sin is STILL THERE if it's "balanced." Sin must be dealt with.

Sandy| 3.4.09 @ 3:06PM

Tim Geithner doesn't know how to do his own taxes and he's going to pull us out of this fiscal morass? Rahm Emmanuel was wrong: This IS amateur hour.

Todd| 3.4.09 @ 3:24PM

Ryan,
I challenge you to read this link in the Book of Mormon 2Nephi ch9 to help clarify how we view the Atonement and how only through Jesus we are saved. I am in agreement in every word in you 2-4th paragraphs and if you read that chapter, you will see that is what we believe.
Here is the link:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/9

I think that chapter very eloquently details how sin is dealt with and how we would be forever lost without the Atonement. You might want to consider how it was possible that an unlearned farmboy like Joseph Smith could have just made up something like that chapter among many others. I am not trying to convert you but I find it impossible to believe myself whatever historical evidence you seem to think disproves it.

Now you had nothing to disprove the War in Heaven is an actuality of scripture. Of course Jesus was both God and man being the literal Son of God, I don't really understand how Satan being cast out of Heaven has anything to do with that. We don't equate Satan in any way with Jesus, Satan is the Son of Perdition after all and the lowest form of life there is. How exactly did Satan come into being if you reject that he had been cast out of Heaven first? Using this argument against Mormonism about Satan being Jesus's brother is a red herring Ryan since the War in Heaven is based in scripture. Was not Lucifer the Morning Star cast out of heaven?

Ryan| 3.4.09 @ 3:36PM

Todd,

If you're going to make an argument about atonement, you're going to have to use something that we have some common ground on - the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. The Bible is VERY clear on Christ's substitutionary atonement.

Unless I'm mistaken, Mormons consider Satan the "son" of God in a similar fashion that Jesus is considered the "son" of God - hence their equation.

Satan was created (not begotten) by God as an angel. Christ was begotten (which means He has the same essence as His Father, and was with Him at the creation of all things).

I know this may rankle you to some aspect, but Joseph Smith was a rather unique individual. Mohammed "made up" the Koran in a similar fashion (visions and such). Whether they had over-active imaginations or some ungodly influences is open to debate on this side of the aisle.

Honestly, HAVE you ever considered the claims of the critics of the Mormon church? I touched on several of them - from archaeology to Biblical interpretation - and there are some far more knowledgeable than I who were convinced that Mormonism has some issues. I personally know someone who walked away from it.

Todd| 3.4.09 @ 4:14PM

Ryan,
If you are going to be critical on what you think we believe, maybe you should actually read it before reaching your predetermined conclusion. The fact you can't even bother reading a chapter shows your mind is closed to any argument. You are mistaken, Jesus is the Son of God not the son of God. We are all spiritually children of God but only Jesus is the literal physical Son of God. There is no equating Satan with God, he could have been like us and come to Earth and accept the sacrifice of Jesus but him and 1/3 of the spirits choose not to unfortunately for them.

Lots of people walk away from it Ryan because it is not easy to live the strict word of God in today's wicked world. I have made my mistakes and know sin brings nothing but misery and will never again travel on the broad road to destruction. Plenty of excuses to use for sure but I doubt the person you know is all that happy with their life, just a hunch. One thing I do know is that the people I know in my Church that live it to the best of their abilities are much happier than those that don't and I know it for myself. Alot of these critics who are former members tend to be very bitter and angry people who have their unresolved issues, why would I listen to people like that?

As a point of historical fact for you, none of the witnesses of the gold plates ever denied seeing them even though many of them fell away from the Church. You might want to look up the history of Oliver Cowdery, he would have had every reason to deny it if it was not true but never did no matter what was offered to him to do so.

Used2bdemocrat| 3.4.09 @ 9:45PM

The democrat party has become a party of class warfare. They will loose this war and any other war that will come along in this country as a result of their dividing the people. I am happy that I have left a party of losers. It is funny how I used to disagree with Rush Limbaugh, but now stand behind him 100%. Their are millions that the party has drove away. The democrat party is known as the party of the immoral, the free loaders those who always want something for nothing, even if it means taking from others to complete their agenda. Enjoy your political power now because I have a feeling that it will be short lived. Used2bdemocrat

Ryan| 3.5.09 @ 8:41AM

Todd,

When you brought up Abraham being commanded by God, I went STRAIGHT to an NASB translation (possibly the BEST word-for-word Biblical translation to date), and looked it up. I didn't find what you were talking about.

I brought up several issues, and never found you to really put forward an answer or rebuttal to them. My examples on archaeology and history were ignored.

Here's a question that more or less requires a yes-or-no answer - do you consider Jesus to be the (not a) Holy and righteous God, creator of everything everywhere, of any and all realities - the only uncreated being?

Todd| 3.5.09 @ 11:11AM

Ryan,
We use the King James version of the Bible. You might want to read over Genesis 16 and 17 to get clarification. It is clear that God approved of his having more than one wife and that is was no sin. You are incorrect to state polygamy was a core tenet of our Church and it was only practiced by a very small percentage of people, usually to take care of the widows and unmarried by men of the very highest integrity. I will leave it at that.

The only example of archaeology and history I recall from you is your mention of wheels and horses. I don't even know what source you are using for that really and what you are referring to so I didn't bother responding.

Obviously a source of contention against us from other Christians has to do with our belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages. Frankly I think that belief is much more scriptural and makes a heck of alot more sense than to believe that they are the same being. To put it simply, we believe Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God and is a perfect resurrected being as he showed himself to his believers after his death on the cross. When Jesus prayed to his Father, he was praying to an actual separate personage. I can point to dozens of scriptures to support that believe. They are one in purpose and perfection, not in being. We believe that Jesus Christ created this Earth under the direction of his Father. We will always be subject to our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ throughout all eternity.

The one in three, three in one trinity I believe is an invention of scholars of the Nicene Creed as ordered by Constantinople. These were not inspired prophets of God and the original Christian Church had fallen into apostasy far before this Council. I believe 100% in Joseph Smith's First Vision where he saw for himself that they are indeed separate glorious beings.

I think it you were honest about it, you would have to admit it is rather powerful than none of the Three Witnesses or the Eight Witnesses ever denied their testimony of the Gold Plates no matter how far estranged from the Church a number of them become. They were offered money to deny it but their conscience would never allow it because they feared God to deny the truth.

Ryan| 3.5.09 @ 12:32PM

Todd,

You use the Mormon interpretation of the KJV - difference due to some re-wording and re-interpretation by Smith ("other sheep" was spoken by Christ when He was talking to the Jews, and He was referencing the Gentiles).
You also have to deal with the Book of Abraham, which was supposedly interpreted from some Egyption papyri - which were later found and seen to be burial documents with nothing related to what Smith interpreted.
Also, if the book of Mormon was so inspired at its beginning, why the thousands of changes? The Bible, as it is written, has hardly undergone ANY substantial changes (the Dead Sea Scrolls were a major development in how little it changed).

If you can, point out to me the verses in the KJV that have God condoning and directing Abraham to have a plural marriage...because I don't see it. Also, do you believe that the result of that marriage was positive or negative?

I looked through your suggestion of 2 Nephi, and found a couple things wanting:
1. - Smith's declaration that those who don't have the law atoned for. It directly contradicts Paul in Romans 1:20 - "20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." I don't completely presume to state that those who don't hear about Christ are condemned, but the Bible leans in that direction. I trust God to do what is right, because He is perfect and His judgment is always right.

2. - Smith states the necessity of Baptism. It's long been debated, but there's a pretty good case to be made that baptism is a work, and not leaning on God's grace. On endurance to the end, our argument is that 1) Christ's redemptive work in our hearts produces endurance, because I am NOT capable of enduring under my own strength, and 2) Christ keeps me to the end.

Here's a question - what is "atonement?" It may be helpful if we know what each others' definition is. For me, it is Christ's substitutionary death on the Cross that satisfies the wrath of God in my place. I have no ability because my sin is so abhorrent to God to come near His holiness, so He had to make a path for me to get to Him.

My statement on archaeology is that there has been little - if any - archaeological evidence to back any of the claims of the book of Mormon, and one of the most successful central American archaeologists is a Mormon himself searching for proof. As to horses and wheels - there weren't ANY in the Americas until AFTER the arrival of the Europeans - entire civilizations spawned here without their development. The book of Mormon talks of chariots and battles fought with them in the New World.

The idea for the Trinity is derived, and though not completely explicit, has a pretty good argument going for it.

One of which is that it's the only way that Christ could pay for our sins AND be sinless Himself. If He wasn't God, He couldn't have done what He did, nor could He have made the claim "I AM" before the Sanhedrin just before His death.

We claim they are BOTH separate AND together, one of those situations where something works only with God.

On the three and eight witnesses, there's a peculiar instance - such as their claim that they were visited by an angel, and didn't physically handle the plates. There's quite a bit there that bears the possibility of demonic influence to lead men astray.

Todd| 3.5.09 @ 1:43PM

Ryan,
The KJV text we use is exactly the same as used by anyone else. How do you know exactly who Christ is referring to as the other sheep? Do you think he does not care at all about the people living in the America's? Who are you to say he could not have visited them? And name we one change in the Book of Mormon that was not grammatical in nature? We never said Joseph Smith was infallible and so the fact he made spelling errors in his translation shows nothing except he was not a great speller. And when was the Bible written Ryan? A very long time after Christ and his Church had disappeared from the Earth. To say that it was correctly translated in all respects would be a real stretch to believe, translating anything from a foreign language is not a cut and dry process and mistakes or misunderstandings are very easy to happen.

You seem to indicate that God would condemn those who had no law given to them or any knowledge of Jesus Christ. Does that sound like a fair and just God to you? I don't believe in a God like that because God is perfectly just and merciful. The Gospel is preached to those in spirit prison for those to accept it, that is right out of 1st Peter.

As for Baptism, it is hard to see how you could get that wrong when Jesus himself taught Nicodemus that no one can enter Heaven without being baptized first. I don't see him saying there are any exceptions to that law. How that relates to those who had no opportunity in this life is that God has made it possible for those living here to be baptized in their place. They still have to accept it of their own accord but everyone has their opportunity. God would not be fair and merciful otherwise.

Atonement means the process that we can become one with God again and that was made possible by the perfect sinless sacrifice of Jesus. I don't think there is any difference in our definitions.

Let me ask you a question yourself when it comes to claims of archaeology. Do you accept the historian view that people have inhabited the America's for tens of thousands of years? Now I think you being a true Christian accepts the view that Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth and according to the Bible, they lived 6,000 years ago. I am sure you struggled with this being an MA in history and I am sure many people have mocked your beliefs because of "historical evidence". So you must see the contradictions you bring when you use "historical evidence" like this to disprove The Book of Mormon which would also disprove the Bible in like manner. Should I also accept so-called historical evidence that man is a product of evolution and not the creation of God? I am not ducking the questions Ryan but I think getting into all the historical evidence is an endless quagmire when Faith is what is required to know the truths of God.

Jesus Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament, that is very clear. That does not mean he does not have a Father himself or who is speaking when he was baptized saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased"? I don't believe there is any reason to believe this is some great mystery we cannot understand. Why would God want to confuse us on this matter? It is man confusing himself.

I won't get into your suggestion about demonic influence. What I will say is by their fruits you shall know them and anything that is evil cannot bring forth anything that is good. If you know any Mormons, you would know them to be good members of their community and people with good values. Like I said before, I am not trying to convert you but I will stand by my beliefs and the beliefs of others like Mitt Romney. To refer to us as a group as being intellectually dishonest I find offensive as you would if someone referred to your faith as such. Politically we are in agreement so I consider you an ally in the cause but I just ask you to give respect to those of our faith whether you agree with it or not. You will not find a group of people that will support the Conservative cause more then us Harry Reid excluded. I think he is a phony in all aspects of his life and a power hungry fool.

Todd| 3.5.09 @ 1:52PM

I thought it was funny Ryan I made a dumb grammatical error in the sentence discussing grammatical errors in The Book of Mormon. It should be me, not we.

Ryan| 3.5.09 @ 4:16PM

I know Christ is referring to Gentiles as "other sheep" because of the context - He was talking to a Jewish audience who was pretty vehemently opposed to him at the time. There are several other parallels in His ministry at the time - that the Gentiles would be welcomed in.

The Bible WASN'T written a long time after Christ's death and resurrection and ascencion - it was written BY the people who knew Him and witnessed events firsthand, or interviewed those who did. It was pretty much flawlessly copied (if you study how manuscripts were copied, you may see this), and we have copies that are about as old as the original manuscripts would have been. It takes a LONG time for corruption to settle in to such documents, far longer than can be asserted for errors to creep in.

Reread about what I wrote, and the scripture I quoted. Paul said it himself that we are without excuse. Also, I wrote that God, Being Who He is, does the right thing, whether it be condemnation or salvation to those who never hear the message and accept Him. Joseph Smith wrote something that has no real basis in the Bible - he stretches something without real Biblical precedent. If there is, you need to point it out. Also, I'd like to see the verses that assert God both condoned and commanded Abraham to have more than one wife.

Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus and "being born of water and the Spirit" wasn't about Baptism. It's a reference to Ezekial 36:25 - something that Joseph Smith didn't understand, but that Nicodemus - a Pharisee learned in the Old Testament - would have.

For the claims of Mormonism to be true about the Americas, it really doesn't matter what occurred more than 10,000 years ago. It matters if the supposed lost tribes actually came over, which would have been far less than 6,000 years ago. If they did, we would have wheels and horses all throughout Native American development - they're just too useful as tools to do without if they're available - PARTICULARLY where there are resources to make wheels and raise horses.

If you aren't looking into these matters, how are you being intellectually honest? Don't just take my arguments on them - search them out yourself.

There's plenty of Biblical issues that are difficult to understand, the Trinity being one of them. Go look at the arguments for it, however (but you may have to look into the standard perspective on Jesus and the Holy Spirit to understand it better).

I once worked for a good Mormon man - and I wish I would have brought these matters up myself. I've heard the bad side of things as well, of families and stakes over-controlling. One could say the same about my fellow evangelicals and Protestants of all stripes.

Todd| 3.5.09 @ 4:18PM

Btw Ryan, I appreciate your effort in reading through 2 Nephi and seeing first hand what it says. The Book of Mormon is much different from what it is portrayed to be by some others and does nothing but preach the necessity of the atonement for everyone and is another Testament of Jesus Christ along with the Bible. It's purpose is not to replace the Bible in anyway. Good luck to you and it was an interesting, thoughtful discussion.

Todd| 3.5.09 @ 5:35PM

Ryan,
Last comment I promise because I think we have reached our logical endpoint before we are just wasting our time. What I mean when I say the Bible was written long from Christ was when it was first put together in an English translation that we know today. 99% of it is pretty much correctly translated though some things were lost over time and for difficult translations. Overall, I say they did an outstanding job though I don't consider the translation infallible in all respects. If you looked through our version of the KJ version, you will see that we have maintained it as is with footnotes on the bottom of the page for clarification purposes.

Now for Abraham, did not the angel appear unto Abraham's second wife and tell her to return? Now sure what else you want there, seems rather plain to me that it had God's approval as angles speak for him.

Jesus himself was baptized so I do not understand your reluctance to accept baptism as a necessary ordinance for salvation. The apostles were taught to go forth and baptize in his name and everyone that accepted the gospel from them was baptized. John the Baptist himself baptized for a remission of sins before the advent of the Ministry of Christ. The 4 leading principles of the Gospel in our beliefs are 1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2) Repentance, 3) Baptism by immersion for a remission of sins, 4) Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

Now if the people in the Book of Mormon came from Israel (which you will dispute no doubt), they would have brought their knowledge from the Old World to the New World with them and their terminology as well. As their was no set names on what to call animals that were new to them, it is really hard to know what is being referred to. Horses were certainly not prominent in their society and were not used in warfare. This is what I mean when you want to get into a discussion of this sort, the Book of Mormon is not written to clarify such matters on geography, animal life and society in general so reading too much into that only leads to confusion. And as a further point of clarification, we do not claim that all natives in the America's descended from those people in the Book of Mormon. They were just a society of several different societies formed throughout that time period so Mormon scholars make no particular claim to any Indian tribe being descended from Jews. It is true some have in the past speculated but they are just guessing and it is not a doctrine.

I am not an expert in these matters but I do not fear to learn more from various sources that adds to my knowledge and I do consider myself intellectually honest. But I will not take one piece of a puzzle that does not seem to fit and make a determination it must be false. Like I said, you could easily do the same thing from various experts and conclude Adam and Eve must have never existed and the Earth was created accidentally from chaos with no God. Should I reject the whole Gospel because Dinosaur bones have been found from millions of years ago and I really have no certain answer to that? Like you, I know from the Spirit that Jesus is the Savior so none of these findings or theories of men can persuade me otherwise.

I think your last paragraph shows you are thoughtful and not a prejudiced man. Most of us LDS members are able to discuss religion in a thoughtful manner and show respect for those who worship differently and willing to answer any questions others may have. The main thing is to avoid contention in doing so because that is the spirit of the Devil. We certainly have our personal flaws and don't claim to be better than others though we do believe strongly in our beliefs. I find it sad that there would be enmity among good honest Christians. Doesn't mean I think anyone who doesn't like Mitt Romney is prejudiced against Mormons, there are legitimate reasons to think he is not the best candidate and I respect that. Just not the intellectually dishonest part due to his faith.

Shaun R| 3.9.09 @ 1:22AM

The author wrote: After all, just the spending he's committed in his first four weeks will cost each of them the equivalent of 10 Caribbean vacations over the course of their lives -- or 50 new laptops and 500 new i-pods."

My response: That's just about equal to the amount of money I'll spend on my daughter's college education 16 years from now, or a fraction of the cost of healthcare if anyone in my family become seriously ill, or the price of heating my house or driving a car if we don't come up with some good fossil fuel alternatives. Thankfully, instead of an idiot Republican in office who thinks we can keep living life as usual and ignore the changes in the world around us, we have a thoughtful, intelligent, world-class leader in Barack Obama. Thank GOD. I don't think I could have stood another 4-8 years with a leader to old (McCain?), religious (Bush?) or stupid (Palin?) to understand the true nature of the difficulties the USA is and will be facing.

Here's what it comes down to. The author of this article probably believes we can return to the 'feel' of the Reagan era, if only we had the right kind of leader. We can't. Those days are over. The 1980's and early 90's are gone, in the same way that the Civil War era, the Roaring Twenties, or the Atomic Age is gone. Bush was proof that it doesn't work in the world anymore.

Get over it, and try to welcome the new guy.

mike| 3.20.09 @ 12:18AM

the big government take on the problem is a response to the source of the recesssion- deregulatory practices and policies. do not compare poor economies and their solutions without comparing the problems that caused them.

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