The American Spectator

Bram| 2.24.09 @ 7:28AM

I must have witnessed a different election last November. Immigration was a non-issue with the McCain campaign. I'm convinced that a stronger position on immigration would have helped him.

By the way, great timing on the article - just as we find out that Chandra Levy was probably murdered by an illegal who was released because of D.C.'s idiotic rules on not hassling foreigners who flout our laws. We also discovered that Phoenix is the American kidnapping capital as Mexico’s drug war spills over our under-protected border.

As Mexico collapses and the economy struggles, there is going to be less and less enthusiasm for comprehensive (amnesty) immigration reform – and more demand for real enforcement.

Chris| 2.24.09 @ 8:13AM

Great article. Two options and this goes to Bram's comment (with all due respect).

Option 1. Hardline even further on immigration. Get candidates that discuss massive deportation as an option or at least in strict hardening of our enforcement. Let the stream of videos of children being torn from their parents be splashed on the Internet, make the Bram's of the world happy. The only problem is that Bram voted Republican anyway. Suffer another mass defeat in 2010 and 2012 and begin to learn your lesson.
or
Option 2. As as Richard Nadler so eloquently states, be pragmatic. Become a true conservative party, which relies on free labor, controlled border, free trade with Mexico and Canada, provides corporations with a decent labor supply, assists Christian churches (who overwhelmingly support immigration reform) and build its base. The would have to deal with the Democrats on immigration reform to actually get what it wants.

The reality is that immigration reform is coming whether you like it or not. The Republicans will run the risk of having no input as to what goes into the bill if they don't sit down in a meaningful debate. They will continue to lose elections and b/c of the growing Latino population will continue to isolate a huge voting block.

Eric| 2.24.09 @ 8:36AM

Again with the straw-man argument: anyone who wants reasonable immigration enforcement first is an extremist who wants to slam the door and "deport 12 million" productive, pro-life, law-abiding people in a “deportation project”.

That is a false characterization of the argument. We don’t demand mass deportation of all illegals. We want enforcement first because the government has a history of tricking us, promising “comprehensive immigration reform” only to cravenly sacrifice the rule of law to provide cheap labor for corporate interests.

We’d like to see a serious effort to deport the violent gang criminals among the illegals, which would by the way be of great benefit to the “law-abiding” illegals. We’d like to set the immigration rate at a reasonable level that allows assimilation, instead of creating vast Spanish-only ghettos that provide more vote plantations for Democrats.

We’d like to moderate the flood so the dwindling proportion of working net taxpayers among us don’t drown trying to rescue over-burdened and collapsing schools and emergency rooms.

We’d like to reform multi-culti education first so that our young immigrants become proud English-speaking Americans instead of bitter crippled America-bashing Democrat cannon fodder. We’d like to see welfare reform first so that we don’t greet our new immigrants by pushing them into dependency. We’d like to see clean elections first so we don’t pick Presidents based on fraudulent ballots cast by people not yet entitled to vote.

All of the above would be easy an easy political sell to existing “law-abiding” illegal immigrants, because they understand the hard facts of life better than anybody. But if all you’re going to do is treat illegal immigrants as potential client-voters then they may as well go live on the Democrat plantation.

Ryan| 2.24.09 @ 8:38AM

The Dems, I think, wanted some sort of reform but weren't going to let the Republicans do it and take any sort of credit for it. My own position is somewhere in-between the hard-line enforcement-only types and the current situation. We need to BOTH properly regulate and control the border AND reform the green card/worker card system. There were some pretty good proposals on this line that never really got any press. There does need to be some sort of punitive measure for those who broke the laws in coming here, but a fine and full disclosure instead of deportation - which is too costly - wouldn't cover it.

We also need to do something to force Mexico to clean up its act. If we actually had a neighbor worth something to the south, we wouldn't be having this problem.

Alan Brooks| 2.24.09 @ 8:41AM

stop writing about America, there is no longer an America, but rather an Amerimexico-- Jose has his hooks so far into us we'll almost certainly never pull them out.
He is bold now; it used to be "we pick your lettuce and build cheaper houses". now it is
"we vote for OUR enablers"
game over.

Anchorbabies away.

Red Phillips| 2.24.09 @ 9:01AM

What a bunch of revisionist nonsense. Marcus Epstein has conclusively demonstrated that being hard-line on immigration did not cost the GOP. The grassroots opposition to amnesty was so effective that it essentially took the issue off the table.

The demographic change being brought about by massive illegal and legal immigration is sealing the GOP's and conservatism's doom forever. This is manifestly obvious and indisputable. Any supposed supporter of the GOP who chooses to overlook this is either willfully disingenuous or foolish.

Support of amnesty and anything other than serious reductions in legal and illegal immigration should be called the GOP Disempowerment and Empowering Democrats into Perpetuity Act. This is not seriously disputable by any honest person.

That is why immigration is THE issue. All other conservative issues rise or fall on immigration. With massive demographic change, conservatives can forget limited government, balanced budgets, ending welfare, saving babies, or whatever else they are concerned with. Their conservative ideas will be a nonfactor in this new world. Conservatism will be ghettoized to isolated suburban and rural outposts, numerically drowned out.

Again, this is not seriously disputable. Wake up.

Apostate Democrat| 2.24.09 @ 9:10AM

Nobody did more groveling for the "hispanic vote" than Juan McCain. What good did it do him? Yet the overclass both Republican and Democrat seems to think that is the only way to win elections. When are the Republicans going to learn that they we will never be able to out pander the Democrats?

MatthewK| 2.24.09 @ 9:23AM

Illegal immigrants drive down wages - particularly those at the bottom end of the spectrum, and take jobs from Americans. Sure, Americans might not be willing to go pick lettuce, but you know what? American will be janitors, cooks, construction workers, meat packers, waiters and other restaurant staff.

You want to know how the GOP recovers? It starts caring about the industrial and manufacturing sectors - start cracking down on nations that don't participate in free trade, like Japan. We let Toyota come into the US, sell millions of cars, and probably kill a few thousand American jobs in the process. Yet Japan is overwealmingly protectionist. Same with Korea. Same with China, same with some areas of Europe.

I'm a Republican, a strong Conservative, but the global market, and America's failure to take action against other countries has created a ridiculous one-sided free trade.

If the GOP wants to recover, it should keep its strong immigration position - and point out to industrial and manufacturing workers that illegals lower wages and take jobs. It should point out that environmentalism kills industrial jobs.

Thats how the GOP becomes strong again.

Jeff Seyfert| 2.24.09 @ 9:45AM

John McCain was the worst candidate that the GOP has offered in my lifetime with the possible exception of Bob Dole.
John McCain's problem was not immigration. His first problem was John McCain.His second problem was the complete collapse of principle in the GOP. I'll bet that if the GOP president had stuck to principle and not offered to bailout the financial institutions they would have found a way to muddle through.
The FACT that John McBackstabber had no clue what to do about the financial meltdown did not help either. The GOP is the party that knows how to handle economics and McCain's most famous statement during the campaign was that economics was not his strong suit.
Between Bush, McCain, Larry Craig, Mark Foley and Dennis Haster the GOP doesn't have ONE principle left.

otto| 2.24.09 @ 9:47AM

At the moment let's face it conservatives/Republicans are largely in the business of packaging defeats as victories. Immigration reform is just one of them, and if Nadler has illusions of how big the problem is he can just read some of these postings. The list also includes healthcare reform, proper regulation of the business and financial systems, abortion choice, to name but a few. The country basically wants all this stuff and except in a few communities is looking for a pragmatic solution to the immigration problem. Basically movement conservatives aren't really prepared to accept any of this and have clearly decided on a policy of more or less total obstruction for the new admin which is essentially posited on the belief (hope?) that their economic policies will end in disaster. It sounds like an approach that will result in marginalization to me because given the amount of eggs being thrown at the wall plus the natural resilience of the US economy I'd put the odds on a recovery at least starting by spring 2010. We're heading into a canyon on immigration as Nadler points out but it's only one of many.

Randy| 2.24.09 @ 9:51AM

Brilliant! Take one non-issue and blame the GOP loss on that. Brilliant! FYI: McCain supported "Comprehensive Immigration Reform." What election were you watching?

Nezzie| 2.24.09 @ 9:56AM

Perhaps we should stop talking about the GOP as though they did not have a constitutent base. We must not forget, it was not the GOP but the taxpaying citizens that stopped illegal immigration and amnesty. We are Independents, Democrats and Republican's. We are American Citizens and we are tired of our tax dollars being spent on people who don't deserve it. Why are there two sets of standards? If an American citizen breaks the law, I don't care what it is, we get punished for it. If we go to the emergency room, we get a bill. We send our kids to school, we pay with our property and sales taxes, if they go to college we get loans (that have to be paid back). Why should we support illegal immigrant's and their children with our tax dollars. If we give them amnesty, they will not make enough money to support themselves, they will continue to be a drain on society.

We were just getting somewhere with the welfare to work reform enacted by Clinton geared towards the lower income blacks and white's in America. The 1986 amnesty enacted by Regan and the same old people in Congress and the Senate hit us with a low blow and it was done in the dark, only now coming to light in America, it was done in a backdoor kind of way.

Well we gave them amnesty, and what did that get us but more illegal aliens from Mexico and now from every country around the world! We cannot afford to be the world's welfare country any longer. We are the welfare country now folks. No, the GOP did not loose because of a hard stance against illegal immigration, they lost because of George Bush, John McCain, and dear lord, Sarah Palin as a possible VP was unthinkable. Illegal immigration never even received coverage in the MSM, just as now illegal immigrants are referred to as "immigrants."

American people want to save our country, our generosity is truly being tested. Maryland's new name will be Marylandfornia if we don't wake up, I don't care what your political affiliation is, our country is far more important than the left or the right, we are talking about we the people!

urbanleftbehind| 2.24.09 @ 10:03AM

I woudnt worry.

In 2004, 8 out of 100 voters representing the greater American electorate were "hispanic". In 2008, 9 out of 100 voters representing the greater American electorate were "hispanic".

In 2004 those 8 voters broke out 5 D/ 3 R (or 37.5% R, more likely the real number than the 44% or 40% cited-many theories: misunderstood questions, trained response).

In 2008, those 9 voters broke out 6 D/ 3R (33% R, lower (31%) in polling perhaps due to pressure not to appear "racista contra Obama".

In short I think a lot of the scared Republicans focus too much worry about the "9th Hispanic" who is likely a recently naturalized immigrant or an exquisitely falsified personage. If you get the 4th and 5th Hispanic of the 9 who maybe one of many people: a besieged resident of a gang-laden community, a productive and vital California state worker that isnt going to sacrifice his pension in favor of his illegal cousins remaining eligible for benefits, or someone incredibly self-conscious about the negative impacts on unchecked immigration that they are convinced that it might be better to let blacks have the biggest minority status back to themselves, you will get the results. Enough with the Univision crowd, think Mun2.

Drew| 2.24.09 @ 10:15AM

With all due respect to Chris

Option 3: Focus immigration reform efforts not on the illegal immigrants themeselves but on enforcement of employment laws. In other words, go after employers of illegal immigrant with harsh penalties (i.e. $10,000 a day per illegal employee fines, jail time for owners, CEO's, etc) and make the raids on employers VERY public (orange jumpuits and perp walks before the cameras). The "marketing" of this would be like the steroid scandals. You would focus on the fact that these employers who are using illegal labor are "cheating" the competition and driving down the cost of labot fo ALL Americans. At the same time, the GOP could be expressing great sympathy for the illegals and saying how sad that it is that a country like Mexico, with all of its great natural resources and beauty, has a political system that is so corrupt and filled with dishonest politicians that it cannot support its own people. Folks, this is all about perception. The GOP could easily change the perception as being anti-immigrant by focusing on the cheating employers who are exploiting these poor illegal immigrants and STILL have the net effect of sharply reducing the numbers of illegals. If the employers have to stop hiring illegals, most of the illegals will self deport. However, the biggest problem for the GOP is that MANY of them and lobbyist groups like the US Chamber of Commerce, who funnel money to the GOP, don't want to shut off the flow of cheap and illegal labor. Like the Democrats, many in the GOP are bought and paid for.

ame| 2.24.09 @ 10:17AM

Nadler’s article on immigration is poorly argued because Nadler’s premise for the argument is NOT THE POINT!
Republicans should never stand for something because it is expedient!
That is why Republicans have lost our way and this presidential election!
Republicans must stand on principle, Mr. Nadler, not expediency to garner votes.
THAT is the way Democrats work.
Republicans are NOT Democrats and maybe we are FINALLY learning that lesson.

Nadler’s article sounds like Senator Thomas Corwin’s letter to Abraham Lincoln in which Corwin wrings his hands over the Republican Party’s incessant focus on slavery, perhaps dooming their chance to win in 1860. Lincoln believed otherwise and declared so, insisting Republicans should NOT try to attract Democrats to their ranks by emphasizing irrelevancies because the issue of slavery offered moral and political RIGHTNESS – TRUTH. Standing against slavery was a MORAL ABSOLUTE because slavery is against all that the USA and her principles, defined and stated in her Bill of Rights and her Constitution decree ABSOLUTELY: Slavery is/was/will ever be morally and legally WRONG.

As Lincoln placed slavery “on the course of ultimate extinction,” so Republicans today must also place ILLEGAL immigration on the course to extinction because ILLEGAL immigration is against all that the USA and her principles, defined and stated in her Bill of Rights and her Constitution decree ABSOLUTELY: ILLEGAL immigration is/was/will ever be morally and legally WRONG.

PRINCIPLES, Mr. Nadler, and LAW that defines and protects them.

The United States of America is a nation of law, although members of Congress and members of the Obama Administration appear to be above it. LAW is the ONE and perhaps the ONLY absolute that binds our Union and all Americans. When we fail to follow the LAW or we do what Obama insists and offer a dissembling interpretation of our Constitution as “a list of negative rights,” then we are on our way to surrendering our national sovereignty, which is exactly what the left Democrats and Mr. Nadler promote.

Republicans stand against ILLEGAL immigration, not immigrants, Mr. Nadler.
Get the argument right and stop with the emotional hyperbole that undermines any and all rational discussion of what is best for American citizens and immigrants and what is determined by our LAW, Mr. Nadler. The left works from the position of emotional exaggeration, name calling, class warfare politics, elitist multi-cultural, anti-American shinola in order to dismiss WHY, on rational, legal, and moral grounds, ILLEGAL immigration is wrong.

ILLEGAL immigrants break the laws of the United States. For that reason alone, ILLEGAL immigrants must be deported. American LAW PROTECTS and encourages legal immigration and allows legal immigration to our country and Republicans welcome legal immigrants! Our laws protect legal immigrants from slavery, Mr. Nadler, and that is one reason why Republicans fight against ILLEGAL immigration. ILLEGALS are subjected to slavery: sexual, labor, and criminal. Americans must do everything NOT TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

Do you not remember the blood soaked grounds of Gettysburg, Mr. Nadler!
The United States has paid in full in the blood of its people to end slavery, and you and many on the left wish to subject people to it for votes!!! Immigrants MUST BE legal to protect their rights to decent pay for labor, while you would have ILLEGAL immigrants working for low pay and long hours and inhumane conditions in the name of garnering votes, Mr. Nadler!!! You must be a Democrat. Only they can be that cold and politically calculating.

The LAW of the United States DEMANDS that the president MUST preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States and it is the job, it is the duty of the Federal Government to protect “against foreign invaders.”

Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code "Improper Entry by Alien" states that
any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place
other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.

ILLEGAL immigration is not about prejudice or the poverty of other people.
ILLEGAL immigration IS about BREAKING the laws of the United States.

It is against American law for a foreign national to cross our borders or overstay a visa. That foreign national is a lawbreaker; in fact, an ILLEGAL alien. The issue of ILLEGAL immigration is one of law enforcement. The President takes an OATH OF OFFICE to uphold, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States and by NOT securing our borders, arresting and deporting ILLEGALS in our country, breaks that oath and subjects the citizens of the United States he has sworn to protect to danger and death.

The United States is a sovereign nation with both the right AND the duty to protect its citizens. The failure of the Government of the United States to enforce EXISTING immigration laws is THE cause of ILLEGAL immigration. Any president’s refusal or failure to enforce our laws and to appoint lawbreakers to his cabinet makes a mockery of our Constitution and betrays American citizens. When we condone the breaking of laws by our own government, we then declare that all law is breakable for certain people in certain positions and that is elitist demagoguery. That is a slippery slope to socialism and a direct challenge to our democratic-republic government as defined by our Constitution.
That little piece of paper seems to be so much trouble for those in charge that they discard it whenever necessary. It seems you have caught that elitist illness, too.

The immigration laws of the United States honor the cry etched on the statue of liberty to "give us your huddled, tired masses, yearning to be free." The United States has generous immigration laws, which Republicans respect and support, that grant immigrants legal entry to our country in order to pursue happiness by living a life of their own, full of promise under the FREEDOM OF THE RULE OF LAW.

The sovereign nation of Mexico deports ILLEGAL immigrants who try to enter its sovereign borders yet expects the USA to do otherwise? The sovereign nation of Mexico DEMANDS that ONLY its CITIZENS get government social aid program help and government rights yet expects the USA to do otherwise? That is WHY Mexicans returning to Mexico whose child was born in the USA have that child’s citizenship changed before they leave for Mexico. Mexico does NOT support ILLEGAL immigrants. Mexico must be held responsible for its own citizens and should be harassed and embarrassed by other countries about using its own citizens as fodder, reducing its own citizens to slavery in order to support the Mexican economy.

ILLEGAL immigrants should be protesting in the streets of their own countries, demanding their rights as human beings instead of demanding that American tax payers foot the bill for privileges their own governments deny them.

GET THE ARGUMENT RIGHT, MR. NADLER!
ILLEGAL immigration is WRONG, legally and morally.

Perhaps you, Mr. Nadler, and certain members of the government need courses in Ethics. Grabbing votes through equivocation and using people for their own means is the plan of the Democrats, NOT the Republicans.
Republicans should NEVER bow to illegality, never bow to immorality much less to get votes!
Republicans must stand for the rule of law, for moral and ethical principles, for the rights of the citizens of the United States and citizens of the United States should revolt against our government when it does not and will not uphold the Constitution of the United States.
Indeed, the Constitution gives us that very right and I, for one, am ready to exercise that right as soon as I throw your ridiculously morally challenged article in the trash!

With weak argument, law challenged “journalists” such as you, Mr. Nadler, the Republican Party does not need enemies.

ILLEGAL immigration is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG on every level.
ILLEGAL, Mr. Nadler - that little word EVERYONE omits – ILLEGAL.
ILLEGAL - AGAINST THE LAW.
ILLEGAL - A TRANSGRESSION OF, VIOLATION OF, INJUSTICE OF
OUR LAW!

You must have been swimming in Democrat imprudent, inappropriate, unprincipled, unscrupulous, shameless, debased, perverted, shady, sleazy, opportunistic water, Mr. Nadler. Some Republicans tried that also and drowned their souls, Mr. Nadler, and lost elections and respect. You cannot buy honor, Mr. Nadler, and you cannot swim in a sewer without being infected.

Enforce our laws or change them, but do not make them cartoons of corruption, perversion, and expediency through a speciously flawed assumption that leads to a pathetic, uneducated plague of untruth. Republicans should NEVER be about buying votes! Besides, Democrats and RINOs have that cornered: hence, the “Stimulus” Bill.

What Republicans need – desperately – is for our leaders to make the case for Republican principles loudly, clearly, logically, and not fall into the moral, liberal abyss of misplaced sentimental victim hood Democrat equivocation. Republicans need to remember and emulate the greatest Republican ever: Abraham Lincoln, who warned us to “Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others.”

Our Constitution is already at risk by a president, a reported Constitutional “scholar” who deems the Constitution nothing more than “ a list of negative rights.” Lincoln would slay that obscene opinion along with your ridiculous insanity of an unconstitutional unethical premise as to why Republicans should sell their souls to get votes. Members of our government and “journalists” such as you must have graduated Fischer-Price Kiddy Care for Constitutional Morons. Your class song - Ever which way but the right way, any means to any ends – is destroying the sovereignty of the United States, the freedom of her citizens, her stated principles, the rights of those who want to enter her borders legally, and the laws of her Constitution that bind us as one Union. Lincoln fought a civil war to secure that Union and American citizens brought Congress down when they tried to break that Union through their deceitful and unconscionable backdoor ramming of Amnesty for ILLEGALS down our throats.

You misjudge Americans badly, Mr. Nadler, when you assume their stupidity and offer them the knife by which to slit their own freedoms and rights. If I didn’t know better, I’d say you must be participating in the daily surreptitious phone conversations of ABC, other media, and the Obama Administration, plotting how to sucker American citizens into giving away their blood-soaked rights to socialism. You do so at your own failure, Mr. Nadler, as does our government.

Americans are not perfect, Mr. Nadler, but we are fired by freedom and will protect our “inalienable” Constitutional rights and that is also the duty of Republicans. To do right is the duty of Republicans. Your suggestion to do otherwise is Constitutional suicide as is your apparent drinking of the Collins, Snowe, Specter “let Socialism ring” kool-aid.

I am so sick and tired of suffering fools, political correctness, utilitarian ideology, empty arguments, and people who have no moral or ethical center trying to infect the rest of us.

At What Cost freedom and our Constitution, Mr. Nadler? Whatever it takes.
Lincoln refused to allow the Union to be broken and so will the American people.
Doubt it to your own peril.

Number Six| 2.24.09 @ 10:21AM

I love how the author and the liberal posters call this immigration reformrather than what it ireally is, illegal immigration reform. You see, these people are law breakers and that is what the GOP is taking a hard line against.

If you don't want to tear the kids from their illegal parents, either send the kid packing with them or change the anchor baby parts of the constitution.

William R| 2.24.09 @ 10:21AM

Ohhh brother!!! Mass immigration with a welfare state only grows government. It is the Viagra of the State. Poor people with not very much education vote Democrat. This isn't Rocket Science. There is a real war on our border and what do people like Nadler want to do, import millions of new participants. Enforce the laws on the books and illegals will self deport. We don't need mass roundups. Just enforce the law.

Havoc| 2.24.09 @ 10:23AM

Without enforced borders, we do not have a country - we have Somalia.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 10:23AM

To the “we can’t deport millions of people-it’s mean! We’ll loose elections! We must feed and protect the little crime makers! The Democrats will call us bad names!” Okay, let’s say you eunuchs have a point. Take some advice from my granny, then: stop feeding the stray kitties and they go away!

Enforce our laws! Put employers who hire these people in jail! Send the criminals back. Stop the free medical, education, food, etc. They will go away. No round up necessary.

thomas| 2.24.09 @ 10:30AM

Look, it is time for the GOP to wise up. Immigration law enforcement did not sink the GOP candidates in 2008. They were sunk by twelve years of decaying GOP moral and ethical values in government, eight years of uncontrolled character assassination of G.W. Bush and the ultimate October surprise, the announcement of the impending 2nd Great Depression which was attributed by the media to a Republican President and Congress.

When asked if they favor enforcement of existing laws, American citizens overwhelmingly say YES. Why would any political party go against the will of the people? If the GOP wants to become Democrat Lite, then they are doomed to an increasingly shrinking role in national politics. Why buy the watered down version of liberalism, when you can have the full bodied richness of true liberalism provided by the Democrat Party?

Ed| 2.24.09 @ 10:39AM

The "anchor baby" sindrome* is only an issue because of a total lack of understanding of the constitution, thanks to publik* education. Any baby born must have parents that are subject to the jurisdiction of the US. This mean the parents must be here LEGALLY before the "baby" is granted automatic citizenship. An ILLEGAL ALIEN is not SUBJECT to the jurisdiction of the US!! Not that anyone cares.
*(mispellings intentional)

Doctor Right| 2.24.09 @ 10:41AM

Sorry, but immigration reform that is NOT "comprehensive" (meaning stricter controls, an enforced border, and deportations of detained illegals) is NOT reform - it's a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

And as another post-er already stated, I don't recall immigration even being really discussed during the '08 election. In fact, McCain ran as fast as he could from any hard-hitting issue that Conservatives support so that he could impress "the vital center"...And they rewarded him by voting for Obama.

The '08 election was effectively over when McCain chastised the South Carolina GOP for their adverts linking Obama to racist, anti-American preacher Jeremiah Wright. SO the idea that McCain 's loss was due to a fictitious hard-line on immigration is absurd.

JP| 2.24.09 @ 10:51AM

Illegals didn't take up President Reagan's amnesty bill in 1986. Why would they do it now? Nadler, like many Republican's wish to score short term, vague political points by giving up on a key requiremet of any democratic nation -namely, who can enter and live in this nation.

Business in many industries hired illegals in order to reap very nice profit margins. The immorality of this is practice is obvious. What has occured during the last decade was an alliance of Democratic Actvisits and Captialists. The former wished to enlarge thier own political rolls, while the later wished to increase profits. Caught in the middle is the one group that gets no respect form anybody -the unskilled white low income laborer.

Ryan| 2.24.09 @ 10:51AM

Wow. Some rather one-sided arguments here. I'll address a couple who didn't seem to read what I wrote.

ame - I wholeheartedly agree with most of your rant, except you offer little to no real solutions. Deportation may be the right way to go, but it's TOO expensive and TOO costly politically.

You rant about the need for the rule of law to be honored - and I agree. However, has it EVEN crossed your mind that some of the laws may be unjust or unfair in regards to immigration? A LARGE majority of Mexicans who cross the border are NOT violent criminals and have little intent to do much harm - they're simply looking for work. We need to streamline the process so they can come over legally, and we know who and where they are, and tax them appropriately. That's it.

I see NO REASON why many of the immigrants shouldn't be here if they can pay taxes and cover any costs to America (which, contrary to many opinions, they do) - we just need to make some sort of adjustment so that they can come legally.

I also hold that there WERE solutions along the secure-the-border line that were being offered and probably would have passed before 2006 when the Democrats practically blocked any resolution for their political gain (we DID get one wall out of it), but it's yet another one of the moderate Republican failures of that period.

Avi| 2.24.09 @ 10:54AM

I don't understand what Obama is waiting for to propose the bill (that he promised) to reclassify spouses and minor children of LPRs as immediate relatives so that can come live with their family without waiting 5 years. Obama promised that he would do this or renew the V visa, much earlier than CIR. Then what's the deal? Doesn't anyone else see how grave this situation is? Even H1B's can bring their spouses/children into the country, but LPRs cannot! FIX THIS PLEASE IT IS TEARING MY FAMILY APART AND I CANNOT LEAVE THE U.S. BECAUSE I NEED A MEDICAL TREATMENT THAT I CAN ONLY GET HERE!

Havoc| 2.24.09 @ 11:03AM

President Bush was not 'assassinated'. It was suicide through thousands of self-inflicted wounds. He was the very definition of 'pathetic'.

Nick| 2.24.09 @ 11:10AM

Mr. Nadler,

Why stop with shamnesty? Why not be totally pragmatic?

Why not drop the Pro-Life issue to get the surgically addicted "Housewives of Orange County" vote? Why not drop opposition to pornography and prostitution to get the Bill Clinton pervert vote? How about offering free vaseline to the "gay" community?

Lets try to out-democrat the democrats. Lets be the Conservative Party of the UK. That's a winning strategy!

Dane R.| 2.24.09 @ 11:25AM

Without garnering at least 40% of the hispanic vote, the GOP cannot hope to win New Mexico, Nevada or Colorado (about 20 electoral votes as of 2012). The GOP must at least take one of these staes to have a chance of victory.
Also, many people here misunderstand that the pro-enforcement crowd allowed persons with racist agendas (inside the GOP and out) to hijack their very sound argument. Persons like Sen. Ensign(R-NV) are now endangered because of such demographic shifts. The GOP must realise that it will get nowhere unless he appeals to bothe Hispanics and African-Americans.

Nick| 2.24.09 @ 11:26AM

If the Republicans want to win this issue, they need to frame it in the context of "line jumping/cutting".

Americans hate people that cut in line.
Frame it thus: All the hard working, honest people waiting in line, for years, around world had 12 million illegal aliens jump to the head of the line. Why should the line jumpers be rewarded, while the ones who played by the rules are punished?

GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE, JERKS!

Kathy| 2.24.09 @ 11:43AM

Most Hispanics vote Democratic for economic issues. That isn't going to change. The Republicans have been pandering and bowing and scraping for decades and it hasn't worked.
Look at McCain a main panderer.
We have had 8 amnesties for illegals. We have sent the word out that we will never enforce our borders. So we can take the whole world. This is a sick, fatal fantasy. APPRARENTLY DENIAL IS A RIVER IN EGYPT.

Scratcher| 2.24.09 @ 11:43AM

If we're to understand this article, a nation which is deep within the throes of a multi-cultural rapture, and accompanied by a steaming hot side dish of diversity, isn't presently interested in strong immigration reform. Who would have imagined that?

For Conservatives, selective law enforcement is nothing new of course, so why the indignation over our failure to enforce those laws controlling immigration, legal or illegal? Yesterday, we worried about bailing out mortgagees who couldn't afford their own mortgages, today it's immigration reform, tomorrow it will be another topic. An endless karmic wheel of topics, thoroughly discussed, soon to be quickly dismissed to make room for the next topic.

That's what a multi-cultural society does - every viewpoint must be heard, all sides acknowledged, each separate cultural "truth" must be examined and debated. It may look like decision paralysis we're told, it often looks like nothing is getting done, but it is our slow, deliberate process to please all cultures, honor all those unique and seperate truths within our Big Tent American culture.

And a nation that recently elected its first African American president with a quasi-religious outpouring of multi-culturalism and love of diversity isn't terribly concerned about legal or illegal immigrants - can you say "it figures"? Our next arriving "undocumented worker" could be the new busboy at your favorite Mexican restaurant - or he could be terrorist on a mission. Who can say - but as New York and Washington D. C. seem to be the cities of choice for aspiring terrorists, if a lack of immigration control doesn't bother their citizens, then I guess it doesn't bother me.

Gregory Dittman| 2.24.09 @ 11:51AM

It has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with bribery with one's own money. In the case of immigration, the Democrats are allowing illegal immigrants to use taxpayer's money for housing and medical aid and education among other things. Other Democrats don't care because they are getting hand outs too. The handouts stop when Republicans are elected so they have no incentive to vote Republican.

Wanda G.B.| 2.24.09 @ 11:55AM

Hilarious article. Let's create more new Democratic voters by more amnesties and illegal immigration. Duh!
Everything you need to know about immigration and what to do about it humorously told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBw1nUlf38I

NumbersUSA is the hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

Jon | 2.24.09 @ 11:55AM

Big surprise, amnesty opponents lost seats in a year that was terrible for the GOP in general, due to the economy (and in which amnesty was a non-issue in the presidential campaign, since the GOP had nominated an amnesty supporter).

Of course, the relevant question with respect to whether the GOP was hurt by an anti-amnesty stance, isn't whether amnesty opponents lost seats, it's whether they did worse than GOP candidates in general (they did better).

And since Nadler is basing his stance on the most recent electoral results, will that stance change if the GOP and amnesty opponents should gain seats in 2010 (as is historically likely)?

The bottom line is that Nadler's appeasement strategy has already been tried, and it doesn't work. In the 1986 elections, after the Reagan amnesty, the GOP got less than 30% of the Hispanic vote. McCain's support for amnesty didn't help him with Hispanics at all, while hurting GOP base turnout.

Trying to out-Hispander the Dems is a fool's errand. If the GOP is inevitably going to lose 2/3rds of the Hispanic vote no matter what they do, they might as well stick to principle.

CyKick| 2.24.09 @ 12:03PM

Republicans should just lie to Mexicans and promise them anything they want, then when elected, pass border security measures and pass registration policies.

In other words lie to get elected and then do whatever you want- JUST AS THE DEMS DO!

Alan Brooks| 2.24.09 @ 12:04PM

anchorbabies away.

far away.

Brad S| 2.24.09 @ 12:09PM

"If the GOP is inevitably going to lose 2/3rds of the Hispanic vote no matter what they do, they might as well stick to principle. "

January 20, 2021:

Jon is sitting at his home, watching the second inauguration of President Deval Patrick, with his daughter and her Hispanic Baby-Daddy boyfriend. Jon proudly and patiently explains to daughter, Baby Daddy, and grandchild that it is always important to stick to principles. After all, if you stick to principles, you're likely more right than wrong. Jon then gets into a tirade about how everything went wrong in this country under President Obama and President Patrick (who replaced VP Biden before the '12 election), and how he predicted EVERYTHING that would happen. He yells at his daughter "I'm right about the direction of this country, and nothing can change that!"

At which point, the Hispanic Baby Daddy pipes up: "Sure, Grandpa Jon, you're right as always. But you and your always-right Republicans STILL LOST!"

The future lessons will be self-evident.

Hercules| 2.24.09 @ 12:10PM

My country is ruined. There is no way to fix it. Bush and the Republicans failed us in a way that America will be unrecognizable in 5 years .

Only on bright spot in this sea of troubles: After the Carter Presidency, America came back STRONGER. The same will happen after the Obama Presidency.

I'm not going to go on a rant and say the things that democrats said of Bush, such as: "He's not my President." But I will say this one thing......I will never see my country in ruin, for I will have died trying to save it.

THX1138| 2.24.09 @ 12:14PM

As long as we let our illegal immigrants determine our immigration policy we are screwed. Which means we're screwed because we've been letting just that happen for far too long now.

Glwelder| 2.24.09 @ 12:19PM

Ryan , You obviously aren't in the building trades, or landscaping etc.. Because if you were you wouldn't be so casual about millions of illegals coming across the border and stealing wages from you and your family. I don't blame the Mexicans as much as our coward politicians who refuse to enforce our laws. And don't give the crap about these people doing work Americans won't; with 10% unemployment that is just nonsense pushed by the Dem's who want millions of new voters and the chamber of commerce Repub's who want cheap labor.
Also your "too costly to deport" is another straw man; these people will self deport if the job market drys up.

Maybe even more important then the wage and job issue illegals present is the cost they impose on our social system. Even if they are employed and paying taxes, they are a net drain on the system. Illegals also compose a disproportionate share of inmates in our prisons, costing more billions.

If we can't control our borders, determine who we want and need to immigrate, then are culture, freedom and prosperity soon will be gone.

I say we put Sheriff Joe in charge of the border, that wall would be built and the border secured within 2 years.

SpaceCat| 2.24.09 @ 12:24PM

I'm stunned to learn that the GOP's hard-right, xenophobic, bigoted immigration stance didn't pay electoral dividends!

STG| 2.24.09 @ 12:24PM

They mean 'Hardline on ILLEGAL immigration", right?
You wouldn't get it from the title.
Hmmmmm...

UR Right Mr. Nagler| 2.24.09 @ 12:26PM

As a native-born citizen and Hispanic Republican, I totally agree with Mr. Nagler. McCain lost the Hispanic vote, not because of his stand on immigration, but because Hispanics, both Democrats and Republicans, are sick and tired of the nasty rhetoric emanating from mostly Republicans on this issue. I can tell you for a fact that every Hispanic I spoke to, whether citizen or immigrant , Democrat or Republican, is mad at the Republicans and will not vote for them specifically because of their enforcement-only or enforcement-first stand.

I know, I know, you say Republicans are against illegal immigrants, not immigrants, but that's not how the whole issue has played out. Their first mistake was when Republicans in Congress sought to make them felons. Then local Republican legislators tried to do the same in their respective states, and it all went downhill from there. I can assure you, that if anyone but McCain had been the presidential candidate, he would have gotten even fewer Hispanic votes.

The point Nagler makes is this. Hispanics are naturally conservative, and toning down the anti-immigrant rhetoric and focusing on the points where we agree is essential. The Hispanic voting bloc will only continue to grow, and if Republicans can't win their votes, then there is no way to win the presidency ever again. We are not looking for amnesty, just comprehensive immigration reform that takes care of the whole problem, not just enforcement.

RSSG| 2.24.09 @ 12:46PM

Total rubbish. This clown Nadler was BBQ'd in National Review among other places. Numbers matter, whether immigrants are legal or illegal, numbers matter.

GOP needs to stand up against the "immigrant invasion", otherwise, why even have another party, other than the government party of the Democrats?

Nick| 2.24.09 @ 12:47PM

UR AMNESTY MR. NAGLER,

Nice try. Answer this question I posted above: "Why should the line jumpers be rewarded, while the [people] who played by the rules are punished?"

Paul| 2.24.09 @ 12:48PM

Losing elections? Losing public support?

It's the media, stupid!

It's not a candidate's stand on illegal immigration.

Mr. Nagler, your headline explains it all. Just like the liberal mainstream media, you try to mislead the audience by using the term, 'Immigration' instead of 'Illegal Immigation.'

Legal immigrants are welcome.

Illegal immigrants are not welcome and must be returned to their home country. When they fill out the paperwork and get approved to become an American citizen, they are then welcome.

Mr. Nagler, the key word is 'illegal.'

Sometimes I wonder why anyone would obey our laws these days....

megapotamus| 2.24.09 @ 12:52PM

If the Mexicans would be men instead of cowards and take action to improve their own country from the hellhole it is they wouldn't have to crawl up here to devour the wealth of Americans. Throw back every damn illegal. Every one. Every single one, eight to eighty, blind crippled or crazy.

Red Phillips| 2.24.09 @ 12:57PM

"Persons like Sen. Ensign(R-NV) are now endangered because of such demographic shifts."

Exactly DaneR. Thanks for making my point for me. That is why we must stop the hemorrhaging before it gets worse. (This is why we should have stopped it in the past.) This is really very elementary. Anyone who doesn’t see it is willfully blind.

And I hate to break it to the careful to not be too politically incorrect crowd, but the issue is not just illegal immigration. It is massive immigration in general. Look at the exit polling. Recent immigrants of all varieties vote very disproportionately for Democrats. Large scale legal immigration empowers Democrats and disempowers Republicans the same as amnestied illegals would. Those who think that recent immigrants are fertile ground for Republicans and conservatives recruitment are engaging in delusional wishful thinking.

Thomas| 2.24.09 @ 1:02PM

UR,

So your point is that Hispanics in America overwhelmingly believed the propaganda broadcast by the mainstream media and did not take the time to examine the actual stance and arguments made by the pro-enforcement people. That puts them in good company with those who believed the propaganda spouted by the mainstream media with regard to the current President. Got it.

Actually, with some minor modification to existing rules with regard to streamlining the naturalization process and reducing some family restrictions on certain existing visitor classifications, enforcement would solve most of the problems brought about by illegal immigration.

PolishKnight| 2.24.09 @ 1:14PM

Richard's premise is flawed in, and of, itself in that Republican embracing illegals with amnesty will somehow save the party. It won't since entitlement voters and special interest groups will always vote Democrat in larger numbers because that party will win the goodie giveaway everytime.

The premise that immigration laws can't be enforced, the "no we can't!" argument, appears disingenuous and is. It's quite easy actually: 1) Set a bounty for illegals who turn in other illegals: They get a temporary amnesty and back-of-the-line privilege as proposed, but only if they turn in another 10 illegals that are subsequently deported. For those who worry that this is a 10% amnesty, relax. Word will soon get out that there's a bounty on their heads and most will leave voluntarily. That's where the stick comes in: illegals caught and turned in get a $20,000 fine. Can't pay it? Then you get a bus ride back to your country of origin with the clothes on your back and permanent banishment.

Regarding the anchor babies: The constitution already says that this only applies to those born into the country legally. You could write, for example, the "right of the people to be armed" in the 2nd amendment and a liberal will argue against it. Proposition 187 was thrown out in court in California.

Finally, the notion of appealing to the "Latino" base is racist. Why not appeal to the white male base? Republicans would get that base out if they proposed to end IMBRA and allow men to date foreign women if they choose, reformed the divorce courts that reward throwing hard working fathers out into the streets, and attacked racist reverse discrimination affirmative-action and contracts that prohibit hiring based upon merit. That would bring out white males in droves, along with their wives and children who love them and would probably also appeal to other voters with a higher minded agenda too. Black men, for example, are trashed by the welfare and family court system.

Joe B| 2.24.09 @ 1:15PM

There are two stealth movements to destroy the Republican Party. One is attempting to make the party more diverse: for our troubles we have Michael Steele, a total doof for Party Chairman, and Bobby Jindal, a stealth Indiann ational as governor of Louisiana (ever wonder what his opinion about offshoring jobs to Mother India?) The other movement is trying to get the RNC to support amnesty for illegal hispanics. It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that the majority of Hispanics will never, ever support the Republican party. Nor will they ever become majority middle class. In some ways, in regard to levels of education, fifth generation US hispanics are in worse shape than first generation ones. On average fewer than 10% have completed SOME college. 50% of Hispanic males drop out of high school. Levels of welfare and Medicaid use are sky high. They will forever be poor in America. The reason they come to America is that because of social welfare giveaway programs and section 8 housing, their standard of living is astronomically higher than it is in corrupt Mexico where all the mestizos who pass the paper bag test hold the high government offices which they use to divert milions of pesos into private bank accounts. So why would a Latino in the US want to support a political candidate who wants to reduce government spending and empower people to accumulate wealth for themselves. The average hispanic family has assets totaling no more than $9K -- usually, that's the 90's vintage family truck with the "Viva Mexico!" air freshener handing on the rear view mirror.

Delmar Jackson| 2.24.09 @ 1:15PM

I guess being an immigration conservative is how six term Chris cannon of Utah lost? Oh, wait- he was the pro immigration candidate!
Amnesty will give 20 million illegals a chance to bring in 80 million of their relatives dooming the republicans who deserve it for their lack of leadership and dooming the democrats that think they will continue to be in power after Latino candidates start running for office.
Make E verify mandatory! End Chain migration and anchor babies. Jail fraudulent Visa employees and employers and their loophole loving laywers that sell their country down the river at any opportunity.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 1:23PM

The pro-illegal alien/amnesty crow on this board uses the same scaremongering “you’ll lose the Hispanic vote and you cannot win without it” BS that Bush/McCain spewed as they begged and groveled at the feet of the disgusting LaRAZA mobs as they marched for more freebies from the tax payer - and no, they don’t pay enough taxes to pay for themselves or their breeding hordes. So, even as they groveled, they gained no votes and lost supporters. So here is the lessen of the day for the putrid little politicians, especially the Republicans: You suck up to the illegal alien/plop over the fence and shoot out a baby crowd, and you will certainly lose the Republican base. I didn’t vote for McCain because of his never ending lip wrap to these people. Bush lost my support and admiration because of his gutless approach. So listen to Nadler and MAYBE get a few votes from the illegal ingrate crowd; but you will lose half your base FOR CERTAIN! Don’t hold you breath for the gutless Republicans to do the right thing, however. They should have been telling Bush to stuff his paean to the Mexican Mafia for years, but just stood there grinning.

Jim Swoben| 2.24.09 @ 1:29PM

The Mexican immigrants are affraid that the El
Salvadoran immigrants will work for half.
Why we need more H1 B software engineers when american's are out of work defies understanding except that the government exists for the banks and not the people loosing their jobs and houses.
The Elites in Washington are just looking to accumulate power not serve the electorate.

Ryan| 2.24.09 @ 1:31PM

GWelder, my father-in-law is a general contractor. He often had problems with white, poorer, skilled workers who wanted to work half as hard for twice the pay of their Mexican counterparts. He's a small businessman and NEEDS the labor competition to stay in business so that he doesn't overpay for poor work. To put food on HIS table, he needs cheaper labor than many of the good-for-nothings he has to deal with are willing to provide.

Thomas, I think that we're on the same level here. Changing - and enforcing - the proper laws and regulations will go a long way toward dealing with the problem.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 1:31PM

I think we should jail a couple of elected or enforcement officials for not enforcing the laws.

24AheadDotCom| 2.24.09 @ 1:39PM

1. According to Pew, when they weren't given a series of choices, only 6% of Hispanics named immigration as influencing their vote.

2. It would seem to be a losing position for the GOP to give even more power to far-left and racial power groups, yet that's what Nadler would do. "Reform" would give groups like the NCLR a terrible amount of power, and they'd use that to push for more immigration and more power.

3. "Reform" would also give even more power inside the U.S. to the Mexicangovernment, and they'd do the same thing the NCLR would do.

Opposing "reform" isn't just the best solution for the GOP, it's the American choice.

Subscribe to my feed if you want to find out all the other things a hack like Nadler will never discuss.

carolinem| 2.24.09 @ 1:46PM

The cynical Republican attempt at bribing illegal aliens to vote for them by giving them amnesty based on their race will never work. The legally mandated gravy train for the 12-20 million illegal aliens of free housing, education, healthcare and welfare continues no matter who gets elected, and attempting to further steal money from law-abiding taxpayers will not endear the Republicans to their base. Insulting the Republican base for protesting the bankruptcy of their cities, prisons, healthcare and education systems because of the strain of illegal aliens, who drove California to bankruptcy, will not assist the rubber-chicken circuit, East Coast Republican elites. They never had their social security number stolen by an illegal, got into a car accident with an unlicenesed, uninsured illegal, couldn't get treated in an emergency room (because they are closing at an alarming rate due to the costs of providing mandated free care to illegals), got behind one in line in a grocery store with their five anchor-baby children and pull out food stamps, or had theirAmerican children in classes where no one spoke English. Republican elites have destroyed their party base, and if they think stealing from taxpayers to finance their fantasy of a great return will work, they are crazy.

24AheadDotCom| 2.24.09 @ 1:50PM

Ryan writes: "GWelder, my father-in-law is a general contractor. He often had problems with white, poorer, skilled workers who wanted to work half as hard for twice the pay of their Mexican counterparts."

Ryan might actually be telling the truth. However, oddly enough, there seem to be a lot of Ryans about, those who promote the superiority of Hispanic - especially illegal - labor and talk down "American" labor, sometimes identified by race, sometimes that's just "understood". I've seen dozens of examples of that, and I think most of them are plants.

See this for a plant being found out: peekURL.com/z83ohx3

As for the solution to this problem, no bounties are needed. All we need to do is to get our politicians to start enforcing the laws. And, they way to do that is to show them that if they don't enforce our laws their careers will suffer. You can help them see that by asking a question like this:

http://24ahead.com/ask-stimulus-bill-question-illegal-aliens-taking-jobs-us-cit

Ask a stimulus bill supporter that question, get their response on video, and upload it to Youtube. That will send a very clear message to them and to their colleagues that enforcing our laws is in their own interest.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 1:51PM

Based on all of the KKK recruits who are commenting, I am not surprised by the anti-hispanic tone of all these posts.
I am sure, that if the Mexicans were white and in the same scenario, the GOP would be totally silent.
This coming from a party with 214 white members in congress out of a 219-member caucus in the house and senate. If Obama gets 90% of the hispanic vote in 2012 and cruises to victory, its all on the bigots who comprise the GOP.

2 Guns| 2.24.09 @ 1:54PM

Just a note, here in Arizona, whenever there is a Ballot Proposition concerning Illegal Immigration, it usually passes with 75-80% of the vote. The vote from the Hispanics is usually 60% in favor. So, explain to me, how being tough on Illegal Immigration, will alienate large numbers of voting Hispanics?

McCain lost because the economy tanked and he didn't get the base out. Pretty simple. The Hispanic vote was directed at pocketbook issues.

Kishore Jethanandani| 2.24.09 @ 1:57PM

Immigration law in the USA is a piece of the third world--capricious, byzantine and dysfunctional. Illegal immigration is an outcome of this problem and not the problem. A legal channel for immigration to meet labor needs is what we need. More on my Blog: http://kishorejets.typepad.com/us_election_2008_controve/2008/05/conservative-ob.html

Drew | 2.24.09 @ 1:58PM

What a hell hole, POS country Mexico must be whose chief export is their own poor. If the US is forced to act as the welfare state for Mexico, then why don't we just send our troops in and get rid of the corrupt politicians and drug lords that the people of Mexico are too weak and cowardly to deal with themselves? Mexico could be the 51st state. I mean, having this country on our southern border is a danger in itself, beyond having to support their underclass while the politicians and the drug lords enrich themselves. Just think what might happen if the 12-20 MILLION illegal immigrants in our country (most from Mexico) would take up arms and march on Mexico City? Viva La Revolucian!! Of course, it won't happen because most Mexicans have come to passively accept that corruption is simply a part of their culture. What a shame for such a once promising country.

Jason| 2.24.09 @ 2:00PM

Nadler, I beg to differ!
Opening up the floodgates for immigration from Mexico and granting amnesty for illegal immigrants will NOT help conservatives. The immigrant vote will always go to democrats because democrats will continue to lead the way on the wreckless spending on social programs that immigrants benefit from.

We need immigration policies that favor assimilation, that promote an orderly and fair process, that filter out criminals, that filter out communicable diseases like TB and that ensure that our entitlement programs are not bankrupted.

Immigration "reform" as defined by G. W. Bush and most of the Democrats will not be good for Republicans and will not be good for America.
http://www.rightklik.net/

ReggieMay| 2.24.09 @ 2:03PM

McCain lost my vote because of Juan Hernandez and his Hispandering - plain and simply. There was no difference on the issue of immigration between McCain and Obama so I did what so many other independents did - voted third party. It may have been a "wasted" vote but my conscience is clear.

Dave| 2.24.09 @ 2:05PM

Mr. Nadler,

Our nation is defined by its laws and its borders. Do away with these, and the nation ceases to exist. I’m not willing to surrender the sovereignty of the United States to get votes. As a sovereign nation, do we have the right to say who can and can’t enter our country?
Then there is the economic factor. Through mass immigration, legal and illegal, we are importing poverty from the third world. There is no way that a poor peasant working for slave wages in this country can possibly pay enough in taxes to pay for his children’s education and his entire family’s health care and other social services. Guess who gets stuck paying the expenses. I do. If the companies that hire illegal aliens agree to pay all of their families’ living expenses, maybe we can talk.

Think First| 2.24.09 @ 2:14PM

I happen to work at a place where I see between 300 and 400 people a day. In a neighborhood where it is pretty even between Hispanic and White. To this day roughly 95% of the Hispanics go for a hard line on immigration for a very simple reason. Their parents or they themselves did it the right way and if they can, anyone can.

They feel insulted by republicans trying to pander to them because while they expect it of Democrats, they don't of Republicans. They expect a true conservative to be one like Reagan who will stand up, name names and call them out on every lie, hypocrisy and that includes the press.

These people lament and long for a reason to believe in someone willing to stand up and speak for anyone who's willing to make a difference and give big government an enema starting with all the wasted departments like Education that have managed to dumb down our schools.

The other side is the growing black population in the 'hood is currently running 80% pissed by Obama because he has proven their worst nightmare. Instead of understanding and helping them to succeed by getting rid of deficits and excessive spending, he is treating them like idiots.

Now consider also I live in Southern Arizona and you get the idea.

Consider also they resent like H*ll the groveling both Clinton and Bush to the Mexican presidents because one of the reasons they come here is to get out from under the criminals in charge of their country. When our leaders bend over and take it in the butt for these people, they see them as cowards and useless.

If Republicans want to win the hearts of the people it thinks it needs, then they will return to their conservative roots, take strong stands on principles important to all free people and promise to get BIG govt on a crash diet. What McCain said originally to get in and then ignored.

Now if these people see this so clearly, why are the supposed leaders of the Republican party so out of touch? Why an article like this here when it's premise is so obviously wrong?

The only time Conservativism loses is when it compromises. Sarah Palin was a huge winner here with the people. Too bad she was saddled with so much baggage in McCain. What a lot of folks also don't realize is she was muzzled big time because it was obvious she was way more popular than McCain and his ego wouldn't allow him to accept it.

She wanted to attack Obama on every issue as she knew he was an easy mark on almost every issue. Yet McCain was in full surrender mode and ignored her as much as possible.

There is so much opportunity here for anyone who is willing to do so to take a stand and the grassfire revolt ready to spring forth will be far larger and stronger than even the MSM can ignore. It starts with us. What are you doing to help fan the flames?

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 2:18PM

Liberal fools, like Scott, always spew KKK nonsense when they don't have an argument. This is not about race, it's about our sovreignty.

rambo B| 2.24.09 @ 2:21PM

First, Scott F. this is an adult thread, and if you cannot debate in an adult manner stick to Kos or HP.
I am sick of GOP apologists like Nader who think we must compete for the hispanic vote by offering them our nation. I think the Dems have the hispanic vote wrapped up by virture of the lure of entitlements, no pressure to become American citizens, a blind eye toward dual citizenship, and free health care and education for their young. I see the GOP targeting the 70 million or so voters who have not vote din the last few elections. Most of these voters are traditional and white Americans who when the Dems step way over the line, will vote in the next election or two. They will vote for a GOP candidate who will secure the borders, restrain entitlements for illegals, advocate citizenship for those illegals who have been here for over five years and have a clean record and a job, and who will deport criminal illegals after serving their time in prison.

PolishKnight| 2.24.09 @ 2:24PM

24aheaddotcom, I second the motion that Ryan is a plant. Note the use of his language that the white workers are inferior because they're "more poor" than the Mexicans. That's leftist code for "trailer trash." One reason the Americans demand more is simply because they have taxes to pay. I wonder if the nice general contractor cutting costs is breaking tax laws... (assuming it's not a total plant.)

That brings us to Scott's argument that opposing illegal latino immigrants is racist and that we would be welcoming the illegals with open arms if they were white. Aside from this argument being disingenuous (the left welcomes such illegals precisely because they aren't white and therefore likely to vote Democrat for racist spoils), it's also untrue. Poles and Irish immigrants were subject to discrimination simply for wanting to come to work and without special entitlements or invasion goals such as La Raza.

I chuckle at how the left doesn't know history anymore but that explains why their newspapers are going broke. Tee hee.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:28PM

Brovo, Rambo! I would change one thing, however. Make the residency requirement 10-years w/clean record. Also, no citizen status for 10 years after that - at the least.

Scratcher| 2.24.09 @ 2:34PM

Unemployment is high, Democrat working class voters are losing their jobs and their homes in unprecedented numbers. Is now a good time to talk about amnesty for illegals? Not really, the Dems will shove this whole amnesty thing to the back burner - they're saving the economy at the moment and, besides, it isn't a good idea to irritate your non-immigrant base.

But Conservatives have long memories and want to discuss the lack of enforcement - it's just that no one else wants to discuss it, the Republicans are still determined to snag a share of the Hispanic vote without totally alienating their base. We can file that quaint and rather silly notion along with all the other futile gestures the Republicans constantly pursue.

But, the GOP contends, they must do something, the Democrats are getting all the minority voters and, coincidentally, the minority vote is growing as a percent of the electorate - funny how that works. The core of the Democrat's message is "we'll give you something for nothing" - that doesn't require much translation, even recent immigrants habla that English.

So, the Republicans trot out an Uncle Jose and stand him next to their black Uncle Tom to show the nation that first and foremost they are politically correct and, second, they believe their message appeals to members of all minorities. Why their message would do that, no one actually knows.

The Democrats just smile and wonder why Republicans won't enroll in remedial arithmetic. Obama got 95% of the black vote, over 60% of the Hispanic vote, same for the Asian vote - they, the Dem cattle barons, have a solution for any Republican rustlers that try to poach from their livestock - we'll hang you sheep herders if you don't stay away from what's ours.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Conservatives are still mumbling about the law, the need to control our borders, fairness to legal immigrants - yadda, yadda. If Republicans are math impaired, Conservatives are common sense impaired - as their numbers and influence rapidly dwindles, they still firmly believe in the American Way - good luck with that.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:35PM

America's future? http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/ci_11770841

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 2:35PM

I dont know where in Arizona Think First is living, clearly its a place where reality is in retreat. Also, I again will reiterate, if the migrants from Mexico were white, there would be no arguments on this post.
Moreover, the GOP supporters constantly insult minorities by saying - they vote for entitlements.
NO!! Why would they vote for racists and confederate-flag waving loons (who also have that flag currently over 2 statehouses in the south - the Palin crowd).
By looking at the results of 2008 in Arizona, where McCain only took his home state by 9 points, will Obama will take it by 2012, like Clinton did in 1996? Youbetcha!

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 2:43PM

Scott is a liberal traitor who is willing to sell his country out in order to get votes. Liberals will do anything to acquire power. Whoremonger.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 2:48PM

And you Ruth, are a KKK sympathiser like the rest of the GOP. I am yet to hear any of you rebuff the well known fact that the GOP has remodelled itself as the new Confederate Party - Its right, only if its white. Hispanics etal are mudpeople.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:50PM

So Scott, are you saying that Hispanics prefer to live under your Rainbow Flag? I don’t think so – they voted for Prop 8

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:50PM

So Scott, are you saying that Hispanics prefer to live under your Rainbow Flag? I don’t think so – they voted for Prop 8

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:50PM

So Scott, are you saying that Hispanics prefer to live under your Rainbow Flag? I don’t think so – they voted for Prop 8

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 2:50PM

So Scott, are you saying that Hispanics prefer to live under your Rainbow Flag? I don’t think so – they voted for Prop 8

Ryan| 2.24.09 @ 2:55PM

Not a plant. Check out most other posts in other areas under the name "Ryan" (mostly on religious topics), and you'll find that I'm anything but a liberal plant.

They're not this smart. They typically try and bear it down to a racist rant.

I'm only commenting on what I have personally seen and experienced. Talk to ANY general contractor and you'll get similar stories.

Do I like illegal immigration? No. I oppose amnesty, support strengthening the border, enforcing the laws on the books, AND changing the laws so that Mexican workers can come here if they want and compete on a level playing field. Those that are here illegally should go home.

Frankly, I really wish there was some policy that we could take that would force the Mexican government - the real, corrupt problem - to clean up its act and deal with the drug cartels.

I'm still convinced that the leftists in congress blocked a more real solution to the problem, and would have voted for the amnesty "solution" if the credit wouldn't have gone to Bush and the Republicans.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 2:55PM

Mudpeople? Never heard of that one--you must have made that up. Freak.

Argon| 2.24.09 @ 3:02PM

IS now very clear that the statistically insignificant but extremely vocal pool of anti-immigrant population is still doing what it does best. Since loosing majority of Americans on its cause as well as all sense of rationality and logic, it has swarmed electronic media especially the internet.

Once it sees any rational and thoughtful article like the one above on immigration it will quickly swing to action and begin to attack immediately often without even reading it in its entirety.
Its arsenal normally includes talking points and phrases designed for it by some illiterate and semi-literate and often drug addicted psychotic talk-show hosts and columnists.
The good news is that the American people have for years now relegated this fringe group to irrelevance. Comprehensive Immigration Reform is coming soon and when it does this time Mr Virgil Goode and Others like him will no longer have any meaningful influence.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 3:06PM

Some of my best friends are Latinos and I've come to love them like family. Liberals like you are the people I truly detest, though, because you are destroyers. You won't be happy until you have ruined our country.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 3:11PM

IS now very clear that the statistically insignificant but extremely vocal pool of anti-immigrant population is still doing what it does best. Since loosing majority of Americans on its cause as well as all sense of rationality and logic, it has swarmed electronic media especially the internet.
------------------------------------------------------------
For the thousandth time: not anti-immigrant, anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant. Sheesh!!

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 3:20PM

Frankly, I really wish there was some policy that we could take that would force the Mexican government - the real, corrupt problem - to clean up its act and deal with the drug cartels.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is truly the problem. Mexico’s crapulence and corruption is the major cause of this problem. But both political parties have ignored the 1000 lb Mexican in the kitchen with her 18 kids looking in the fridge for so long that now drastic measures must be employed. It’s a given Mexicans must fix their country but the U.S. has to seal its borders and enforce its laws to apply the pressure needed just to move the problem out of the Galactically Crappy range and into the Gigantically Crappy range. Until the problem is under control all talk of “comprehensive” (read amnesty) is a non-starter. Mexico is the epicenter of this problem and should be the target of our efforts.

David J| 2.24.09 @ 3:23PM

So - laws are to be ignored? Can I assume we are discussing ILLEGAL immigration, NOT immigration? This is one of the most ignorant articles I have ever read on a website which is supposed to be pro-USA

carter| 2.24.09 @ 3:36PM

WOW! as a Democrat I love seeing all this racism from GOPers. Their calls for "purity" sounds very familiar and the obvious hatred in their posts harks back to a dark past. Soon they'll be the WPP and wear armbands. WPP = whitepeoplesparty, go for it.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 3:36PM

Liberals know we aren't bigots, it's just their way to buy votes. They have to lie and use hate in order to win because their ideology stinks.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 3:37PM

Yes ruth, the common defense - my best friends are latino/black - whatever, everytime I hear the right-wing, its always about how the "complexion" of america will change. If you right wingers just admit your racist tendencies, we can all move on.
Also, if the GOP cant even capitalize on the issue of gay marriage, where blacks defeated prop 8 in CA 70-30, and hispanics 54-46, they are totally irrelevant.

Argon| 2.24.09 @ 3:37PM

Republicans lost the November 4 2008 elections hugely but not entirely due to its stance on IMMIGRATION this is due to the fact that overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians and realists. They are not ATTRITIONISTS.
Go take a look at the ELECTORAL MAP once more.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 3:38PM

Carter, the troglodyte, proves my point.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 3:40PM

Okay, 'mudpeople Scott', you can go crawl back under your Soros' rock now. LOL

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 3:54PM

Ruth, stop watching and listening to too much right-wing hate. You have yet to rebuff my arguments. Just read Brad S. above - he represents the GOP's finest.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 3:58PM

Scott - if the GOP cant even capitalize on the issue of gay marriage, where blacks defeated prop 8 in CA 70-30, and hispanics 54-46, they are totally irrelevant.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Um, defeated Prop 8? Check again, Sparky! Interesting choice of words, tho. In the mean time, let’s see how many Democrats vote for the next amnesty bill.

Michigan-Matt| 2.24.09 @ 4:02PM

Mr Nadler hits the nail on the head with this one: "Because in the moment that conservatives realize that their opposition to comprehensive immigration reform is unnecessary, they will understand that it is undesirable. "

The soc-con knuckle-draggers hurt the GOP immeasurably. They, once again, took positions that alienated one of the largest growing segments of GOP voters --a segment that Bush 43 worked hard to bring into the Party-- and turned them against the Party.

For what? A little chest-thumping good ol' Nativist bigotry without the white sheets.

Gotta love those soc-cons. They're killing the GOP. Frankly, they deserve anything pro-illegal alien policy advocates in the Democrat-controlled House, Senate or WH can toss at 'em. And I hope it is consequential, stinging reform for mandatory health care and free drivers licenses and unlimited work permits and access to housing and social services and ANYthing else illegal aliens want from Uncle Sam. Maybe even mass transit to and from Mexican towns? Now that would be sweet revenge on the soc-cons tantrum-like betrayal of the GOP in 2008.

Hey Nativist Bigots? Like ol' Ronnie used to say: Tear down that wall.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 4:11PM

Better keep your eye on national security, liberal stooges. If we get hit by terroists on your Obamassiah's watch, your commie party is toast.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 4:17PM

The GOP is already a party of the south and parts of the mid-west, and even there they're losing - Obama winninf VA and NC, as well as getting an electoral vote in NE of all places. People see bigots for who they are.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 4:26PM

The only "bigots" in US are liberals, and only 22% of them, and mostly in CA, NY, NJ,IL and New England. So I wouldn't really be talking about the regional party if I were you.

All it takes is to sway 10% of independent votes to win an election, and Obambi's support among Independents had fallen by 8% in the last week. So keep talking.. We like it.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 4:28PM

Yeah, you're looking at yourself in the mirror. Liberals will be punished for their stupidity in 2010.

tru american patriot| 2.24.09 @ 4:29PM

87% of american people for Amnesty!!

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 4:31PM

Gallup has Obama at 59% approval today, first time it's been below 60%, and the clown hasn't even filled his cabinet yet. Too much democrat corruption. The only direction for Obama's approval ratings now-- is down.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 4:32PM

tru american patriot| 2.24.09 @ 4:29PM
87% of american people for Amnesty!!
------------------------------------------------------

Yeap, 87% of the mental hospital!!!

Louis Jenkins| 2.24.09 @ 4:40PM

“Because in the moment that conservatives realize that their opposition to comprehensive immigration reform is unnecessary, they will understand that it is undesirable.”

So what part of law does this author not understand? A party or group of individuals who adhere to the law, nay, desire for it be enforced, are looked upon as though they have two heads. They are lumped as malcontents? That being the case why do any of us obey the laws of this nation? After all, we’re just looking for better times, a better education for our kids, less crime, and a decent home. So let’s ignore some or all of the laws. Or are the illegal immigrants just plain “cowards” because they refuse to associate with their former fellow citizens south of the border.

Interloper| 2.24.09 @ 4:40PM

Someone needs to post the true demographic statistics for the outcome of the 2008 presidential election, so I'm doing so. Among Hispanic voters, President Barack Obama defeated Sen. John McCain by a margin of 67 to 31 percent. There are several commenters who are misstated the differential because they don't know the actual figure or because they want to make it appear McCain did better than he did. But, to grasp this issue at all, you need the real data. Again, 67 to 31 percent.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 4:41PM

The GOP was punished for their stupidity over the last 8 years. And STG, I dont think most minorities would agree that NY is more bigoted than MS and AL. The GOP is OVER, white male pandering seems to be losing its touch. Good riddance!
Obama won NC, VA, and IN. He lost MO and MT by a couple thousand votes, and the Dems got a seat in Idaho! Its clear that the racist GOP is over. Neither Steele norr Jindal has a chance in any GOP primary for president - the first non-white president came from the Dem. Party - The GOP had a field of 10 white male candidates. Why cant you people just slide into irrelevance? Because you clearly are not feigning ignorance.

Obama Rules| 2.24.09 @ 4:43PM

Why not concentrate on cracking down on U.S. EMPLOYERS who knowingly hire illegal immigrants? They're the ones to blame, not people looking for a better life.

Obama Rules| 2.24.09 @ 4:45PM

ruth, you'd like a terrorist hit on U.S. soil right about now, wouldn't you? Anything to get a Republican in office, eh?

Go back to what you do best: sucking.

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 4:47PM

Michigan Matt is back from his pizza delivery job and huffing and puffing about his wishes for trains full of poor, illiterate Mexicans invading the US! Safely ensconced in his parent’s basement, he gets to work getting back all those people who didn't tip him! He walked that pizza to the door through the snow and they gave him nothing! Nada! Bupkus! I'll write nasty things about them, says Michigan Matt! That will show 'em, says Matt! Oooooooooo, I'll call them names like knuckle-draggers and bigots! Oooooooooooo - I'm Michigan Matt! I'll show 'em!
LOL. Take a pill and tighten the tin foil, dude. No one listens to an unhinged idiot! LOL It was a hilarious post, though. Tell your Mom I say hi!

OR| 2.24.09 @ 4:47PM

megapotamus: Compassionate conservative, true and true!

OR| 2.24.09 @ 4:48PM

JTS, you're an idiot.

Regards,
OR.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 4:54PM

The GOP was punished for not having a backbone. The GOP (McCain) was punished for not laying the blame where it belongs, as in Barney Frank and Dodd.
Obama did not win, McCain lost.
And even with all that, the margin is still only 6%.
As I said, keep talking. I hear independents all over the place saying "we voted incorrectly", or "too bad I didn't go vote AGAINST Obama".
And I live in Illinois.
YOU should be scared, not us.
Your so called "change" will be over quickly.
I see the change: tax cheats, liars, "not allowed" lobbyists, Blago, Burris, transparency, Billions in IOUs.
And the Middle class - we are getting a grand total of $13 a week more. WOW. Talk about a 12 pack FOR FREE.
Xa-Xa-Xa

JTS| 2.24.09 @ 4:54PM

OR - I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you! :-p

Regards,
JTS :-)

El Cid| 2.24.09 @ 5:07PM

Trancredo, Santorum, Guiliani and Romney killed the GOP brand among Hispanic Americans.

Every year, 1 million Hispanic Americans turn 18 and can register to vote. This demographic tsuanami is concentrated in the major electoral college states. So no White House for the GOP unless they choose Jeb Bush and even then it may be too late.

It is pay back time. Just like the Jews hunted down the Nazi, Hispanic Americans will do the same over the next 20 years.

God bless and keep America

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 5:10PM

STG are you stupid or something? If McCain lost, then Obama won. I think its time for your KKK meeting, hurry, you'll be late!

GB| 2.24.09 @ 5:11PM

Mr. McCain, yes THE Mr. McCain of the infamous McCain-Kennedy comprehensive immigration reform bill went down in flames in November, he was the most pro-illegal of all the Republicans. Sorry, not buying the story but nice try.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 5:13PM

Scott.. I'd knock your teeth in for a statement like this to my face. But then again, you are only brave on the internet. Count your blessings you are sitting on the blog site, you dumm libturd.

Jim| 2.24.09 @ 5:14PM

More pandering to liberals and illegal aliens. Strong enforcment works.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 5:16PM

Gallup Obama approvals: 59% and sinking fast. Now that's change I can believe in!

GB| 2.24.09 @ 5:19PM

Jason, nice post.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 5:19PM

STG, don't waste your time; Scott's probably a girl or wants to be one. I really can't tell the difference among liberals.

GB| 2.24.09 @ 5:20PM

Romney 2012

STG| 2.24.09 @ 5:29PM

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 5:19PM
STG, don't waste your time; Scott's probably a girl or wants to be one. I really can't tell the difference among liberals.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I know what you mean :-)
Thanks

Texas Minuteman| 2.24.09 @ 5:30PM

Simple Texas 2-step solution to the illegal alien crisis that won't cost tax payers one cent;

1) Revoke birthright citizenship for all US born children of illegal aliens-RETROACTIVELY-to about 1970.

2) Authorize Americans to execute CITIZENS ARREST of illegal alien CRIMINALS. After all, an illegal alien is a CRIMINAL by definition.

These 2 steps would then allow Americans to TAKE BACK our country from the illegal alien scourge. Heck, Minutemen across America would round them up for free! Then, they could ALL be bussed, or put on rail cars, back to MEXICO-where they belong!

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 5:30PM

Yes, STG, your violent threats explain the dilema of your party. You know, these same threats were used in the south in the 1960s........usually against MLK Jr. and those who agitated for civil and voting rights. Nothing much has changed, you, like ruth just now transfering your lost hate battle againts blacks to latinos. What a shame!
Neither you nor ruth can counter my argument on the blatant racial hatred your party has for minorities. too bad.

Lindy| 2.24.09 @ 5:39PM

What we really should be mad about is the fact that the Democrats removed from the stimulus bill, the part where people recieving stimulus funds had to use E-verify. Now an estimated 300,000-500,000 of new jobs will go to illegals. All this while Americans are losing their jobs everywhere.....

STG| 2.24.09 @ 5:39PM

For your information:
1. I have nothing against blacks or latinos
2. I am an immigrant myself, a long time ago and LEGAL
3. I am not a registered Republican. Common sense is not partisan.
4. In order to avoid threats", do not call people names, it's not nice, first of all.
5. Argue the points presented in the discussion. If you don't have anything to counter with, walk away.
6. Racism is a made up liberal word that can be used every time you are loosing an argument. Same with KKK. Soviets called it propaganda.

Have fun mulling it over.

Argon| 2.24.09 @ 5:40PM

STG, I know that you people don't care about telling the truth but people like me with integrity care.
The difference between Obama and McCain is not 6% but 7.3% see RCP(realclearpolitics.com).Poll Date Sample MoE Obama (D) McCain (R) Spread
Final Results -- -- -- 52.9 45.6 Obama +7.3

''Obama did not win, McCain lost.''
Is another lame refrain that I come across on extremist blogs and websites, one of many that are absolutely meaningless.
People are leaving the republican party in droves and is amazing you people can't figure it out yet all you do is sit there and come up with series of silly reasons why the GOP lost. If you people don't shape up there will be no more GOP by 2010.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 5:46PM

Scott, you made the accusation, libtard. Prove it.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 5:48PM

Acorn skewed the 2008 election results, Obama probably lost.

Red Phillips| 2.24.09 @ 5:50PM

Michigan-Matt are you trying to compete with Interloper for the most bigoted anti-bigot? Heaven forbid an American be tinged by that dreaded thing called “nativism” which is really just an entirely understandable human emotion that has been around as long as there have been humans, but it is perfectly fine to call people who disagree with your PC rantings “knuckle-draggers.” You hypocrite.

Have you ever looked into how difficult it is to immigrate to Japan for example? I guess all those Japanese people are just vile nativists who failed, unlike you and Interloper, to graduate summa cum laude from the Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxist ethnic self loathing and self flagellation. They really should be happy if a bunch of foreigners poured into their country at unprecedented and unassailable rates.

Your kind of PC grandstanding and preening poisons every conversation it touches, and the immigration debate is a prime example. Look at how even many immigration restrictionists fall all over themselves to emphasize that they only have a problem with illegal immigration less some PC thought cop like yourself call them a bad name. When it comes to conserving America as we know it, which is incidentally what conservatives are supposed to do, the issue is not primarily legality or illegality, it is numbers and rate. The current numbers and rate of immigration, legal and illegal, is unprecedented in American history despite nation of immigrants mythology. And this is the result of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act which should be repealed.

Go hang out with your buddy Morris Dees or catch up on your Marcuse and Adorno and leave the rest of us alone.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 5:51PM

STG, as an immigrant, I'm sure as I have pointed out before, but if the persons crossing the Mexican border were white and not latino, you would have shut up and said nothing - probably even supported it.
The GOP as it exists has slid into total irrelevance. Moreover, based on your cooments on this article, I am convinced that you're either a bigot (since you dont like the term racist) or just living in denial.

P.S - An afro-american was elected, please accept reality, the US has changed - the new wave of immigrants is only a natural process in demographic changes.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 5:57PM

How could ACORN skew the results ruth? I'm sure Strom Thurmond would have been proud of you.

Truth Teller| 2.24.09 @ 6:16PM

What this thread needs is some sanity - Bob Whitaker's Mantra.

"Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to "assimilate," i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realize I'm not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn't object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white."

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 6:16PM

You're just a thief and a thug, Scott, like all liberal losers. I'm sure Stalin is proud of you.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 6:24PM

White liberals are the worst. Their self hatred is what is destroying this country. They need intensive professional therapy--STAT!

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 6:26PM

Thief and thug? No need to stereotype ruth. What am I angry about, you call all minorities that! I can only imagine if one day your child weds a latino or black person - I think we'll see the true confederate.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 6:33PM

She already did, moron, and I love him. Like most minorities in California, I would object to you marrying your male lover, though.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 6:35PM

A GOP that supports open borders (by any name, comprehensive "reform" etc.) deserves to be electorally massacred. This article is profoundly irrational and stupid in that it assumes the only purpose of conservative American voters is to rubber stamp GOP candidates - regardless of the actual political positions they advocate.

Enough with this idiocy. This line of "reason" advocated by Mr. Nadler is only interesting or of use to GOP members/employees that depend on that worthless party for a paycheck - the rest of us that hold some sort of ideological integrity couldn't care less if another GOP Pol was elected to anything higher than city dog catcher if they cave in as a party to the rabble of muti-culturalists, (racist) latino activists and leftist political opportunists that advocate an open border policy.

A GOP that makes peace with it's own demise as a party that (at least) pays lip service to actual limitations on government isn't worth one conservative vote.

While unrestrained mass demographic upheaval and replacement of the native born population serves some political interests it definitely isn't first on my list of pet political causes as someone that actually favors "limited government" - a quaint position to have I'm sure as we idiotically attempt to absorb what amounts to be a small third world nation of (mostly illegal) immigrants with little education and less incentive to assimilate thanks to our "friends" on the left end of our political spectrum.

Get it yet open borders advocates? Given the choice between two completely equal ideological big government and open borders advocating political parties, most conservatives will stay home. Can the GOP win on the strength of the "I'm too lazy to mow my own lawn so I hire an illegal to do it" vote? Guess we'll find out.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 6:38PM

Afro-American? Dude, you're stuck in the sixties. Must have been all that 'purple haze' you inhaled that trashed your brain. Put the tie-dye t-shirts away and join the 21st century.

Nick| 2.24.09 @ 6:38PM

Michigan Matt,

Hey, why don't you and Joe Schwarz get together with the other mushy moderates in '12 and nominate a pro-amnesty Republican who is well known for stickin' it to his fellow Republicans, if that's such a winning formula?

Oh, wait a minute... You just did. And got your hats handed to you. And gave us B.O. to boot. Way to go, nimrods.

Kat| 2.24.09 @ 6:41PM

Mushy=braindead.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 6:51PM

Yes, ruth - play the gay-bashing card, another example of backward GOP voters. Please state your talkingpoints somewhere else, may I suggest a neo-nazi site?

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 6:56PM

The immigration debate is nearing its end. By the way ruth, name one Afro-american member of the GOP house and senate caucus. OOPS, there aren't any.

P.S - Afro-american is short for African-american, in the 60s, i believe the term 'negro' was used - the GOP still uses that term.

Quartermaster| 2.24.09 @ 6:59PM

Nadler is is either insane, or a liar. The election we saw last Novermber, certainly wasn't the election that took place in his head.

McCain sttod for everything Nadler stands for in this issue. He lost. He lost by an electoral landslide even after pandering. Other Republicans lost, but immigration had nothing to do with it, unless you accept the fact that many illegal immigrants have managed to vote. But, Nadler isn't much on the facts, unless of course, they fit his theory, and if they don't, just ignore them, they'll go away.

A version of this article was posted at National Review Online, and he had a number of good responses, which Ramesh Ponuru said, were little more than the raising of straw men (Ponuru really needs to get out and learn what a straw man is before he embarrasses himself again). Nadler then proceeded to show how little he knows about the issue and push his own brand of lawlessness to boot.

Yes, Mr. Nadler, you support lawlessness, because what you wish to do is reward violation of the law. If enforcing the law mean mass deportation to you, then fine we believe in mass deportation. Better that than the lawlessness you support. The Democrats already give us enough of it.

Roy| 2.24.09 @ 7:01PM

re:Nick on "line jumpers"

Yeah, that is a sore spot for me, too. Reform of the crazily overcomplicated LEGAL immigration bureaucracy would make it much more credible to say that you are not against immigration, just illegal immigration.

I work with a lot of Indians who would be an asset to this country. Granted, they can't all immigrate(or at least, I can understand arguments against that) but we should at least work to give them an up or down answer based on clear criteria within 2-3 years at most. I know people who have been in limbo for 10.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 7:03PM

"name one Afro-american member of the GOP house and senate caucus. OOPS, there aren't any."

So the GOP should cave on "affirmative action" to attract voters as well as simply caving to the open borders rabble?

Your vision of a two party system looks an awfully lot like a one party system. Can we have just a little bit of ideological integrity here or will that not be allowed in your brave new world?

Phil Jones| 2.24.09 @ 7:04PM

If Nadler’s argument is correct then he should agree that an experiment of implementing his policy of open borders in a smaller country first would make sense.

Therefore, Nadler should argue that his policy be first adopted in Israel. They could tear down the wall built between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They could allow all Palestinian Arabs to “return” to Israel proper, by modifying the “Law of Return.” In addition of course, a wide ranging policy of affirmative action or “positive discrimination” would be adopted to apply to favor all of the new Arab immigrants over native born Israelis. After all, over 90 percent of the immigrants to America are eligible for affirmative action benefits over native born Americans of European ancestry.

Well, one wonders if Nadler would consider making the argument that other countries, and in particular Israel, adopt the policies he advocates for “America.”

sleestak| 2.24.09 @ 7:05PM

The USA should threat illegal mexicans just like the mexicans threat there illegals.

"Enter Mexico illegally and you're treated as a felon. If you're caught by the Federal Police, you'll be fortunate if you're only deported immediately. The unfortunate are robbed, abused, raped, or even murdered by corrupt police officers."

all this doesnt matter anyway. The USA is done for and we are headed for another civil war

It's LONG OVER DUE .

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 7:11PM

Churchill, at least one member out of 219 is affirmative action? Looks like the Grand Old Confederate Party supporters are again in limbo

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 7:21PM

Scott, you are calling most minorities in California Nazis, too, you know. Tsk, tsk, do I detect division among the mighty liberal juggernaut? Shame on you for hating minorities, but you don't give a damn about them anyway, it's just a cowardly way for liberals to get votes. It's all about power, all of the time with you democrats. Lincoln was a republican, by the way; now he did do something of value for minorities.

otto| 2.24.09 @ 7:21PM

Apropos my comments earlier......Sanford is already in full retreat from taking stimulus funds VIZ:

"After weeks of criticizing the federal economic stimulus package, Gov. Mark Sanford has accepted the first offering to come from the plan.

He has agreed to a component that will pay an extra $25 a week to the state’s unemployed workers. Each state had to notify the federal government by Saturday if it was accepting the benefit, and Sanford made his decision then, said Joel Sawyer, the governor’s spokesman.

"It was something, literally, that every other governor had asked for," Sawyer said. "We could not find a compelling reason not to."

As I predicted this makes us look like jackasses. SC has the third highest unemployment rate in the nation for godsake.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 7:25PM

Scott F.

Learn some basic reading comprehension skills.

My point is that the GOP shouldn't mirror every (asinine and unconstitutional in this case) policy the Democrats advocate simply for political expediency.

Get it yet? Try to re-read.

Joe B| 2.24.09 @ 7:27PM

Hispanic is a garbage can designation meaning anyone from Latin America. As such it is uninformative. Some Hispanics, like Cubans, Uruguayans, Argentinians, and Chileans, tend to assimilate better (the educated ones, anyway) once in the US than Mexicans or Central Americans. Right now the 30% of Hispanics breaking for Republicans tend to be the educated, assimilated, entrepreneurial i.e. not schoolteachers, postal clerks, or city bus drivers. Republicans should just ignore the designation of hispanic, clearly enunciate their philosophy, and stop trying to market themselves to the welfare aristocracy (poor immigrants and public employees). The best thing they can do is speak clearly, intelligently, and repeatedly about what they stand for: small government, free markets, the dignity of reaping what you sow, law and order, school and medical choice, originalism in the Supreme Court, and an end to abortion.
Regarding immigration, Republicans should advocate a policy that is beneficial and fair to the taxpaying citizenry; frankly, I don't care if its humane. We should only bring into the national family people with talent, intelligence, good morals, and education, who are willing to assimilate -- that means, master English before taking the oath of citizenship. If taking in asylum seekers means importing poverty and crime (the Hmong and Somalis, for instance), well forget it. Let such people suffer adversity in their homeland -- they are victims of their own culture. Let it be. I also like the idea that no immigrant should receive welfare benefits of any kind, not even for their children: that way, if they fail in the United States, they will go home.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 7:27PM

Ruth, the party of Lincoln no longer exists, its now the party of Jefferson Davis. Don't call liberals bigots - It was conservatives who wanted - slavery, segregation, no immigration, no voting or civil rights - in fact, conservatives have been on the wrong side of social issues since the birth of the nation.
Besides, the examples of racism are to blatant and too many to mention - a 98% white congressional caucus is a good place to start. I think Wallace's Alabama had more diversity.

P.S - Do you really think the GOP would elect Jindal to be a Pres. candidate? - they tear him apart, just rwad Brad S. comments above - he's where your party is currently.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 7:36PM

Maybe racist nazis like you called African Americans negros in the sixties, but Afro-American was preferred. What cave did you grow up in anyway? What a throwback you are. Republicans ended slavery, democrats ruled the south and perpetuated discrimination. You don't care about anything but power, anyway. Your vaunted tolerance is a self-serving lie. You are thieves and thugs as evidenced by your enforcement wing, ACORN.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 7:43PM

Where were you living Ruth! Look at MLK and both Kennedys speeches - 'negro' was the term of the 60s. It only became African-Americans in the late 70s.
Again I will reiterate, the GOP today is not the party of Lincoln - your demonization of ACORN is only a ruse to attack blacks and minorities as this group serves the urban populations.
ACORN! ACORN! ACORN! Thats all I hear from you - where's the GOP activists in the urban areas - oops, I forgot, in the GOP's view, only sub-humans live there.
Minorities who cast ballots for the GOP simply have no self-esteem - why would you vote for someone who hates you?
Hey, David Duke aint a registered member of my party, but he is of yours.

Eagle| 2.24.09 @ 7:46PM

Perhaps if we ignore Scott F. he will go away.

Real American| 2.24.09 @ 7:49PM

the GOP ran the biggest pro-Amnesty politician, the FACE OF AMNESTY, in the country for President and he got spanked, largely because of his position on immigration kept the GOP voters AWAY FROM THE POLLS. The lesson to be learned from this isn't that the GOP needs to embrace amnesty.

And, the GOP isn't insisting on enforcement only, but it is insisting on enforcement FIRST. enforcement works and makes a long term solution much more possible because there would be less illegals to deport or keep. In any event, if the GOP doesn't stand up for the rule of law, who will? The Democrats? Don't make me laugh.

Brad S| 2.24.09 @ 7:52PM

Scott F,

While I'm flattered that you'd approvingly comment on my comment, I must warn you that you are starting to get the same "no way they can come back" arrogance that has inflicted way too many people that align themselves with the winning team. Just because I'm having a little fun with a principled, if lazy, paleocon, doesn't mean you should assume I've chucked my beloved Republican Party aside.

After all, my party has been declared dead quite a few times in recent history, while the Dem Party has been seen as the cool kids on the varsity football team. Usually, after a period of time, those same cool kids wonder how a Dick Nixon that they thought they didn't have to kick around anymore, gets back in the driver's seat. Not to mention, those same cool kids are dumbfounded that an old B-movie actor could win after getting beaten by a clumsy oaf just 4 years earlier. And those same pizza-party kids were really downcast when a Georgia cracker led the revenge of the nerds, two years after everyone said the nerds were nothing if they didn't have the White House.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 7:53PM

Your're right Eagle, I think I've made my point - the GOP is packed with bigots and frauds - Enjoy the changing complexion of the US. I'll sit back and laugh as the last remnants of this countries racist past now embodied in the GOP slowly fizzle out.

P.S - I figure to be a 'Real American' on the right, you gotta be white.....hmmm, youbetcha!

STG| 2.24.09 @ 7:57PM

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 5:51PM
STG, as an immigrant, I'm sure as I have pointed out before, but if the persons crossing the Mexican border were white and not latino, you would have shut up and said nothing - probably even supported it.
The GOP as it exists has slid into total irrelevance. Moreover, based on your cooments on this article, I am convinced that you're either a bigot (since you dont like the term racist) or just living in denial.

P.S - An afro-american was elected, please accept reality, the US has changed - the new wave of immigrants is only a natural process in demographic changes.
-------------------------------------------------

You must have heard what "assumtion" is, right?
The problem with people like you is that you don't respect anyone, not even yourselves.
You don't know history, you don't know how the world works, you only know 5 or 6 labels that are interchangable depending on the situation. Sometimes all are involved in regards to the same subject.

You just suggested to someone to marry interracially? How about you try it?
There are ethnic wars around the globe, Jews do not like arabs and vise versa, Pakistan and India hate each other, tribes in Africa kill each other every day. North and South Korea are the same people, and they would nuke one another, all with the scream of "for the people!!!!".
And you think US has the racism issue? The year that a black man was elected president? And a black Attorney General played the race card not even a month into office?
I bet 99% of the world would love to be in your poor, suffering under years of burden, little shoes.
There are millions of illegal immigrants from all over the world, not just latinos, and you know, I kinda oppose all of them, not just latinos.
I hope for all your troubles, the job you currently MIGHT have is contructed in favor of an illegal alien OR an H1B visa holder. You know, just because "they are cheaper".
We, the middle class, are already tired of giving our money away for the idea of your "great society". It's what they call utopia, if you know the term. And the only society that came close to that is in the sci fi books.
Ah, whatever, there is no point to even discuss this things with you. You would never understand anyway. It's just easier to ignore you people and build for the future. Our future.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 7:58PM

Scott F. is doing a mighty nice job of trolling notice how he is attempting to swing the "conversation" into the standard libtard "make them defend themselves against the charge of racism" talking point.

I'll take a pass on that all day. Call me racist all you want and I'll gladly be one of those - whatever "racist" really means - if that means standing firm on constitutional principles that prevent discrimination on the basis of race (affirmative action being one egregious example of race based discrimination popular amongst you Democrats.)

Try to twist and turn the language all you like vile troll, people that are disgusted by both parties won't be intimidated by cheap internet thuggery.

How much of the overall population would you like to see as foreign born? What's the end game here? How does it benefit blacks to import a new hispanic undereducated ,unassimilated, underclass to compete with blacks who lag behind asians and whites with regards to the rates at which they graduate college?

Try answering that one.

I suppose if you're a fire breathing partisan Democrat, anything that benefits the party (brand new underclass of semi-literates to preach victimization to) takes precedence over all, but you know what they say about the law of unintended consequences right?

Brad S| 2.24.09 @ 8:03PM

"How does it benefit blacks to import a new hispanic undereducated ,unassimilated, underclass to compete with blacks who lag behind asians and whites "

I sure hope you're not getting into the attitude that the sole purpose of African-Americans is to be the USA's permanent "underclass." If so, get the hell out of the GOP and off my property. You're the big reason why no African-American (much less a Latino) would trust anything the Conservative Movement says about immigration limitation being beneficial to them.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 8:06PM

Yes, Churchill, blacks therefore by virtue of keeping out hispanics, themselves are - "undereducated ,unassimilated, underclass to compete with blacks who lag behind asians and whites with regards to the rates at which they graduate college"
Do you people listen to yourselves?

STG - I'm well aware of history, probably even more than yourself.

Alan Brooks| 2.24.09 @ 8:16PM

Texas Minuteman is correct. NOW is the time to take vigorous action-- not in 2015 or 2020,
but in 2009 or 2010.

soon.

Truth Teller| 2.24.09 @ 8:18PM

"Some Hispanics, like Cubans, Uruguayans, Argentinians, and Chileans, tend to assimilate better (the educated ones, anyway) once in the US than Mexicans or Central Americans."

You are absolutely correct Joe B. And what do these people have in common? They are mostly of European descent. They are not primarily AmerIndian or Mestizos. (Look up the demographics of each country on Wiki.)

Wake up conservatives. The liberals on here get it. Read their posts. Read Scott F.'s gloat above. They know demographic dissolution of the Anglo-American core spells the end of America as we know it and conservatism. Why don't conservatives equally understand what this is really all about? It is genocide by another name and we are supposed to like it. Count me out.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 8:26PM

After reading Truth Teller's (among others) post - I think that that the GOP will remain a permanent minority for quite a while in its current form.
They seem to be advocating some form of genocide to preserve the white race - wow! who let david duke's supporters in here!

Chris C| 2.24.09 @ 8:28PM

Thanks, but no thanks Dick. The GOP stance on immigration is RIGHT ON. When we run on it, we win. When we run away from it (McCain), we lose.

STG| 2.24.09 @ 8:31PM

It's all really simple:
What's the percentage of Americans that opposed McCain's amnesty plan?
Does anyone remember?

Truth Teller| 2.24.09 @ 8:40PM

Scott F, you are a deceitful liar and you know it. I have never and would never advocate genocide of others to preserve the white race and I never said anything close to that. I am opposing the genocide of my own by the conservative measure of opposing the demographic dissolution of my country.

Liberal white haters aren't used to having someone attack them back on their own terms so they resort to blatant distortions.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 8:49PM

Really Truth Teller! You're clearly attending to many Klan meetings. Preservation of the white race? Where are you living in Hitler's Germany? So America is a country for whites only eh? OK, Pres. Obama, Michael Steele and B. Jindal - over to you.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 8:51PM

Since Obama's in office, I think the US that you dream about is long gone. We have civil and voting rights now.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 8:52PM

Brad S.

You GOP trolls are as bad as the Democratic trolls.

Fact: Blacks lag behind whites and asians with regard to college graduation rates. Therefore they are competing for jobs with (non-college graduate) whites and a large and speedily growing crop of hispanic immigrants.

This is absolute irrefutable fact so quit the "racist" blathering.

Knowing the fact that these new immigrants are competing with blacks and lower class whites for jobs, I simply ask how it benefits blacks - who are disproportionally affected by this immigration idiocy, to have a much larger pool of people to compete against for the same jobs.

How about an answer idiot? I guess everything in this forum will be turned into moronic charges of racism but here's hoping there's at least one intellectually honest liberal in here.

Scott F.

My hats off to you as a widly successful troll. You're right, everyone is a closet confederate with a poster of Gov. Wallace in their secret "Klan Kloset"

Idiot.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:03PM

Churchill, Truth Teller etal: you're exactly whats wrong with the GOP. And you really expect minorities to vote for you - I predict Obama gets 85% of the latino vote by 2012 and take the entire southwest corridor of CO, NM, NV and AZ.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:09PM

I guess we know the modus operandi of the pro open borders crowd. Drown out any legitimate discussion on the actual drawbacks of having open borders and importing a vast new underclass of spanish speaking individuals that won't be expected to learn english and otherwise assimilate into our society by calling them "racists."

It's tired and old. My recommendation for everyone that refuses to go along with the Democrats and Republicans on this asinine scheme is to completely ignore trolls like Scott F. and Brad S.

They have an agenda and we have ours. Make your voice heard to your elected officials and regardless of the inane prattling of the Richard Nadlers of the world, we will continue to have our way.

The killing of the amnesty bill proves just how repulsed the American public is with open borders immigration and perpetual follow-on amnesties. We want enforcement of our existing laws not asinine and lawless "look the other way" policies from the government charged with enforcing these laws. We want employers severely penalized for hiring illegals regardless of how much these labor exploiting capitalists and lazy white men that refuse to mow their own lawn whine and we want immigrants to ASSIMILATE, learn the language and follow our laws or face immediate deportation.

They can rant, stamp their feet and squeal their magic word "racist" all they want, but we as (hopefully mostly ex) GOP and Democratic voters had registered our collective distaste with this idiocy - and the political class felt the fire and backed off their amnesty.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty after all...

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:14PM

Whatever, I'm off to watch MY President address Congress.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:14PM

Scott F.

You're an idiot.

I refuse to vote for the amnesty trolling tools of wall street (GOP.)

How many times should I type that? The GOP is the me-too party...always just slightly right of the Democrats and always (without fail) the OTHER party of big government.

Rant at and hate the GOP all day while I sit back and laugh. I could care less (once again) if any GOP Pol ever gets elected - to anything.

If it takes us 15 solid years of majority Democrat rule to achieve European social-democratic utopia, it would take us only about 20 to reach the same exact point with the worthless GOP.

Granted, there may be a little less money in the NEA budget for crucifixes dangling in jars of human urine, but the end results look awfully similar.

Who cares about the GOP?

Scurry back to your hole, race baiting troll nobody is buying what you're trying to sell.

Joe B| 2.24.09 @ 9:14PM

If the Republicans adopt the diversity platform, founding stock Americans, overwhelmingly white, will lose all access to political power. America doesn't need minorities -- we are stuck with them because Democrats took a ginormous dump on our great nation in the form of the Immigration and Naturalization Act 0f 1965. Once whites become a minority they will become unified in protecting their own interests, much like blacks came together to vote for Hopey. Today's conservatives have a better grasp on history. Multi-ethnic nations can be held together only by totalitarianism, the kind Democrats appear to be striving toward. It really doesn't matter that their governing style is silly, chaotic, oppressive, corrupt, and ineffectual, because it is truly representative of the people who voted them into power. And the confederacy of diverse dunces will perpetually return them to power from now on.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:16PM

I hope you all notice how Scott F. and Brad S. bugged out after I called them out on the "how does unfettered immigration benefit lower class whites and blacks" question.

They are all blather and no substance.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:22PM

Check my post churchill, i think i answered that. The GOP is a worthless party: irrelevant and ignorant.
America doesn't need minorites - Joe B. Looks like there are KKK members who can use the internet, congratulations! By the way, I think the confederacy lost.

Just admit that you're all a bunch of racists (nationally) and political confusion will end - the battle lines would have been drawn and everyone will know where they stand.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:24PM

May I advise that you form the David Duke party or a national nazi party Joe B? You'll have sound support from churchill etal.

davelnaf| 2.24.09 @ 9:30PM

Well, we're still talking about people that are here illegally. No amount of political alchemy will change that fact. What the GOP might have in mind is the fact that illegals--from Mexico in particular--have been given and have given themselves the option of never assimilating to US society. The process of asimilation is brutal to people deeply rooted to their culture and the soft PC culture here may always extend to them the exemption of never assimilating to US society. PC may have waned somewhat but it still has the capacity to harm, if not cripple, US society and people unable to make the hard choices about illegal immigration will always turn to it for 'solutions.'

Truth Teller| 2.24.09 @ 9:36PM

Scott F., America is historically a Western, Christian, Euro (originally primarily Anglo/Celtic) country with primarily Western, Christian, and British institutions and culture. If you deny this you are historically illiterate. Even honest moderates and liberals like Fischer and Huntington concede this. The fact that Obama, Steele, and Jindal have succeeded here is precisely because of the Western Christian Anglo nature of the country. A conservative wants to conserve what he has been handed down. A liberal like you will want to trash it. No amount of dropping Hitler, Klan or Germany like some brain-dead robot will change the fact that you are an ungrateful twit who hates your country.

If you love diversity so much and hate your own then why not move?

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:39PM

Scott F.

No. I checked your post and you failed to answer my original question.

Once again SPECIFICALLY answer the following:

How do lower class whites and non college educated blacks benefit from unfettered immigration.

Go ahead and answer that one dishonest troll.

Call the GOP confederates, closet racists or whatever asinine argument dodge you want to use but at least answer questions directed to you.

Until then, you're just another working part of the "RACIST!" noise machine.

At least we agree on the worthlessness of the GOP, "racist" or not.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:42PM

This country was orginally inhabited by millions of Native Americans who 'your people' stripped of their lands and almost forced them into extinction. What a proud Anglo-American legacy. No wonder Jindal will never win his party's nomination, with people like you around Truth Teller.
You are the ones who're ungrateful as you spurn fellow americans who look different than you, and you all call yourselves christian, all the time being hypocrites.
Hitler must be dancing in hell right now, and not because of the heat.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:42PM

Isn't it amazing that people who call for the enforcement of EXISTING immigration laws are somehow (in this bizarro 1984-ish debate) extremists?

Don't be fooled by this idiocy, let me underline the uncomfortable to Brad S and Scott F. fact that a huge population of native born Democrats, Republicans and independent voters rejected the last asinine amnesty program the political establishment tried to slip by - and we will do so again.

Don't be cowed by their ignorant and oft-repeated charge of racism - it's simply crass talking point politics.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:43PM

Everyone continue to enjoy race-baiter Scott F.'s dodge of my question.

Just keeping you all updated.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 9:45PM

Churchill, since you're not with the GOP - may I suggest the KKK - if you're not already a prominent menber.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 9:48PM

"Churchill, since you're not with the GOP - may I suggest the KKK - if you're not already a prominent menber. "

Case closed. This is a troll, and not a very skillful one at that he broke down at the end and went too overboard with the rhetoric thereby exposing his trolling too obviously.

Fail.

Now on the one-in-a-billion chance you're not trolling and are simply stupid, please share with the class why you believe lower class blacks and whites (without college degrees) benefit from mass illegal immigration.

Waiting.....

Red Phillips| 2.24.09 @ 9:59PM

"I predict Obama gets 85% of the latino vote by 2012 and take the entire southwest corridor of CO, NM, NV and AZ."

Scott, thanks for making the point for me that I made in post #6. While I doubt 85%, continued mass immigration spells the demographic doom of the Republican Party. It could not be more plain. You get it. Why can't GOP boosters like Nadler? Republicans must oppose immigration if for no other reason that self preservation. As I said above, immigration is THE issue because all other issues rise and fall on it. If we don't get a handle on immigration, we can forget saving babies or anything else. It is that simple.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 10:01PM

What are you talking about Fuhrer Churchill? I still am in the dark as to how this affects your permanent lower class of blacks - i'm yet to see the negative effects of illegals on any sector - except the KKK message.

Loulou| 2.24.09 @ 10:05PM

Ignore the trolls.

Nadler is as good as a troll. Conservatives do not need his loser advice. I'll show you how to deport millions of illegal aliens. Just start.

Alice Moore| 2.24.09 @ 10:14PM

Immigration reform has to include Employer penalties. A round up is not a practical solution. With an employer raid, however, there should be automatic deportation of the illegals in their employ. Many illegals would self deport.

The Anchor Baby clause has to be revisited in that citizenship should only be granted to those babies whose parents are here on a legal basis. If the baby has a right to citizenship, then the baby would immediately be put up for a closed adoption and separated from the illegal parents. After all the parents are felons.

I am not anti-Latino BTW. A fleet of yuppies in Volvos probably helped Obama win NC and VA than an illegal day laborer and probably did more to destroy the local culture.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 10:15PM

Scott F.

Thank you for your confirmation. You are only half troll - and half stupid.

How would a massive influx of workers from another country competing for jobs with native born whites and blacks benefit those blacks and whites?

The answer is - it doesn't benefit them. You are too stupid and dishonest of course to acknowledge or refute this irrefutable fac,t so you keep spitting out KKK and Hitler nonsense.

You fail at trolling and you fail at logical thought. Please continue to drop R bombs in this forum though as it's somewhat entertaining considering at this point you've lost all credibility anyway.

I'm generous though...

I'll give you one more shot....

How do you think this massive influx of low skill workers benefits lower class whites and blacks again?

Still waiting.

jaywhite| 2.24.09 @ 10:20PM

Richard Nadler is the typical shill for big business. He seems to forget how McCain who INTRODUCED the "comprehensive reform" i.e. reward law breakers bill, was rewarded by winning a lower percentage of the hispanic vote than Bush. McCain could not have plandered to hispanics more than he did. He toned down his pandering a bit before the election, especially during the primaries but his support of rewarding home invaders (invading our home) was obvious to anyone who considered the issue important. The election result should be interpreted exactly the opposite of how the shill Nadler does. The take home message is hispanics except for some exceptions such as Cubans, consider Republicans as their enemies. The insanity and stupidity of Nadler's argument is further evident by considering how the more hispanics lawbreakers , who tend to be poorly educated, are legalized, the higher the percentage of yellow dog democrats in the electorate.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 10:25PM

Scott is the Nazi and ACORN are the brownshirts of the democrat party. Another liberal loser (pleonasm). He is the face of the democrat party today, the party of corruption.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 10:35PM

Nadler is a detestable shill we can all agree on that I think.

He bases his entire ethical worldview on what will "sell" to the american public, rather than what's objectively right.

The GOP is absolutely chock full of these fools and they would do well to dump them and start standing on principle.

Why would I as an ideological proponent of small government - and above all, the US being a nation of "laws not men" vote for either of these parties? They are both equally useless and deserve to fall by the wayside.

The political elites love to circumvent the political process. They purposely fail to enforce the immigration laws on the books to ensure a steady flow of low skilled labor, then call for an amnesty every twenty years or so.

It really couldn't be more obvious to anyone really paying attention.

They will of course try to push another amnesty, and they will be met with the same response from a concerned electorate of Democrat, Republican and independent voters who laughingly shake off the media (and various forum trolls) offensive caricature of them as being not-so-closeted racists.

Public opinion is on the side of the law abiding citizens who will gladly allow some level of lawful immigration to the country so don't be told otherwise by morons like Nadler and these forum trolls.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 10:38PM

We won big ruth, and most neo-nazis vote for the GOP! Churchill, you're the one whose totally inept for phrasing the immigration issue as a 2-sided one. Thats why I'm so brilliant, I see thing a bit better than you, neo-nazi.
Oh, and liberals are trolls now, hmm, thank God for Obama.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 10:39PM

...as a random observation...

Don't you really love how the Nadlers of the world are too cowardly to mix it up in these online forums after posting such an obviously stupid piece of open borders propaganda?

Free speech sucks right?

I'm sure Nadler is hating it right now.

That's all.

karen| 2.24.09 @ 10:45PM

This is the kind of hate on both sides that we dont need. I think its time that -
1) We all realise that the US is changing with immigration/integration
2) Perhaps there can be consensus with minorities on social issues - they're generally conservative
3) Cut out the race talk!! I don't think anyone here knows the black/latino etc. experience
4) Evaluate all illegal immigrants on a case-by-case basis - Mass deportations will cause endless upheaval.
5) Secure the borders - BOTH OF THEM!

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 10:48PM

Obama's approvals are at only 59% today and his negatives are skyrocketing. Incompetent liberals will screw things up yet again, they always do.

jaywhite| 2.24.09 @ 10:51PM

Scott , your use of the KKK card as a variant of the R card just shows you are a stalinist prostitute.
For El Cid, you need to be confined to a mental hospital or prison. How dare you compare what happened to Jews in the holocaust to the preferential treatment hispanics receive in the USA. I have met many "professional" hispanics who use their hispanic heritage to obtain jobs ahead of more qualified whites. Did the Nazis have affirmative action for Jews? Maybe you should have stayed in school past the 4th grade then you wouldn't sound like such an idiot.

ruth| 2.24.09 @ 10:53PM

Republicans shun their extremists (Duke) while Democrats celebrate theirs' (Sharpton). Scott is a pretty typical liberal.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 11:02PM

Jaywhite and ruth - don't cover up your racism - better qualified whites? Duke uses that argument every time. In fact, thats a pillar of his movement.
Whats wrong with Sharpton - because he wants blacks not to be discriminated against? Geez, thats free speech for you - all of the klansmen come out of the nuthouse!! Keep waving your cofederate flags like those over 2 southern statehouses - its done wonders for you.

That will be all.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 11:14PM

Scott F.

Still hanging around, still avoiding the question:

"how does unfettered immigration benefit working class whites and blacks"

or to put it another way

"how does increased competition for non college grad labor benefit working class blacks and whites"

Maybe if I keep asking he will break down and answer.

...or, more likely, he has recognized the limits of his knowledge and argumentation skills and will continue avoiding a battle he can't win.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 11:19PM

Scott F.

Coward.

Scott F.| 2.24.09 @ 11:24PM

Churchill,

Relax.....no need tobe upset because myself and Brad S. scolded you for your bigotry. Good night, at least I will go to sleep not afraid of immigrants, illegal or not as well as other minorities.
When you're ready for ethnic cleansing, call some of the others above.

Good night sir.

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 11:30PM

We all note your absolute failure to answer my (very) basic question.

Go on to bed moron, the internet won't miss you.

Scott, Interloper, Jeremiah,OR| 2.24.09 @ 11:33PM

We are the liberal trolls who infest your wonderful, Conservative site. Please forgive us for being the flaming A-Hole liberals that we are. We wear knee-pads for George Soros and have to earn that paycheck!

Churchill, Joe B, Ruth etal.| 2.24.09 @ 11:40PM

We're currently building gas chambers for blacks, latinos,asians and jews. we'll also finish off the native americans, invade Mexico, and enslave their population to compensate for our loss of slaves and jim crow society. We'll soon be an all-white society.
I just love being conservative!

Churchill| 2.24.09 @ 11:41PM

I'm not sure how "conservative" AmSpec is....they would probably be more rightly (pun intended) called "establishment GOP" than true red blooded conservatives.

The fact that they post screeds by Nadler here, - an obvious hack who lacks any ethical system not based on voting popularity - proves this point.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just one of those troglodyte small government, founding father advocating "real" conservatives.

I'm sure R. Emmet Tyrell will be in here soon to chastise us unsophisticated non beltway dwellers for our quaint insistence on the federal government enforcing their own laws.

TexasTruBlu| 2.24.09 @ 11:46PM

The problem is that while some immigrants contribute to our economy, just as many do not. Witness our schools in Texas funded by property taxes. The idea of one family "paying" for their children's education through mortgages or rent flies in the face of reality where even in suburban areas, rental homes sometimes have three families and many children. How is that fair to the students or the other families who sacrifice to send their kids to school? And don't say it doesn't happen, because the house at the end of my street was just such a house. Then what about public hospitals? Because they are "free" to illegals, they use them as regular medical care. Parkland Hospital has the highest live birth rate in the nation and an estimated 70% of those are to illegal aliens. And if they don't have or don't give real documentation, who gets stuck paying the bills? Answer: taxpayers. If you look at the stats, public hospitals along the border states are bleeding red ink. And then there's public services-emergency services, water, sewage, electricity and more all based on a specific population which balloons because whenever landlords or towns try to implement reasonable occupation limits, the illegals under the auspices of LULAC and MALDEF protest. And this doesn't even touch on the lack of car insurance which drives legal drivers rates through the roof and criminals who pass among us unknown because they don't have criminal records in this country. A scary example of that is service companies that serve schools. They are supposed to check identities, but recently a district found out that 45% of their custodial staff were using false identities and were here illegally. This not only is identity theft which causes grief to someone trying to legally retire, but could place a child or helpless hospitalize individual in harm's way. So the illegal alien problem is more than just a little nuisance, it's a serious question which is going to have to be addressed. And frankly, legalizing them isn't going to do any good because then they will go underground and work off the books. They don't WANT to be legal, they don't WANT to pay taxes.

SCOTT F.| 2.24.09 @ 11:49PM

I can't answer your basic question, Churchill, because I am a liberal and therefore, stupid. You will learn to love your new marxist masters, trust me.

No. 1 Klansan | 2.24.09 @ 11:56PM

Thanks you guys for your support!! Illegals should be exterminated ASAP! Thank God we still have a base in this country - especially you, Churchill.

No. 1 Klansman | 2.24.09 @ 11:59PM

I feel safe in America already!!

Chucky| 2.25.09 @ 12:01AM

I voted Dem for most of my life, and now have voted Republican for the past 2 elections except that I voted Independent for president in 2008 because I would not vote for Amnesty McCain. The only hope the Republican party has of getting my vote is to take a hard line on immigration.

Bingo Live| 2.25.09 @ 12:05AM

n Latino Voting in the 2008 Election, he uses the gigantic Edison-Mitofsky exit polls of 2004 and 2008 to make two principle points: first, that Latino voting patterns do not differ noticeably from national trends; and second, that the immigration issue played a negligible role in the election.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 12:06AM

Hi.

I'm a racist because I want the federal government to enforce laws they created and put on the books.

Thanks!
Churchill

Scott F.| 2.25.09 @ 12:11AM

Finally you admit it Churchill! Geez! Now I can I can officially retire for the night. Now that the truth's out, you'll feel much better.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 12:22AM

Hi!

I'm a democrat politician that helped write the immigration laws currently on the books. I'm a racist as well for wanting to see them enforced!

Even a mouth-breather like Scott F. can surely see the asinine nature of statements like these.

If you hate the laws - remove them. Create new laws. Expand the number of legal immigrants or whatever else your heart desires just do it above the table and take the political heat for it.

Quit passing the buck and allowing unchecked illegal immigration to continue between periodic amnesties. While this makes race baiters in the Democratic party and various wall street execs absolutely orgasmic, this really does nothing to enhance the quality of the lives of the various other non radical or capitalist types that pay the bills for this idiocy and want to see a sane immigration system in this country - defined as a system where laws are made and follow on enforcement occurs.

Enforce the laws or remove them.

Pancho Villa| 2.25.09 @ 12:34AM

I live right in the middle of illegal alien hell. I say deport every last damned one of them, and their fat boy apologist Nadler as well.

DEMOCRAT PARTY| 2.25.09 @ 12:41AM

It's payback time, Whitey, and payback's a bitch!

jaywhite| 2.25.09 @ 2:00AM

To Scott the Stalinist Troll; I'm sorry you accept the truth. I lived in Mexico, which is poorly run compared with the USA. So as much as it will cause you to have an R-word tantrum, countries run by those of European genealogy, are better run. Truth can't be racist. But I know you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome and can't control what comes out of the sewer just below your nose. Are you serious Dhimmi-Rat Party?? Obama is only in the WH because white men put him there. He wouldn't have raised 2 cents without his fundraisers from Silicon Valley who were , (the horror) , white males. His campaign was managed by (again, the horror) David Axelrod, a white male. The first thing BO did , when he put his administration together was beg Rahm Emmanuel , to be his chief of Staff . Rahm is , yes, a white male. So although the incompetent , empty suit fool Obama is the De Jure President, who doesn't have a prayer of remaining in the WH, without white men. So Demo-Rat Party take your medication, and let the adults discuss politics.

Patrick Riley| 2.25.09 @ 5:01AM

GEORGE W. BUSH is the reason the dems won the election.

HomelessLeRhino| 2.25.09 @ 5:56AM

Only Alan Brooks seems to realize that America in 1964 is not America in 2009. In 1064 Mary Poppins and My Fair Lady duked it out for best picture. Leader of the Pack and Under the Boardwalk were top 10 hits. However, we had some precursors of things to come. Dr. Strangelove was a top 5 movie. The anti military. anti USA attitude it promoted dominates today. And, Billy J . Kramer's Little Children describes the mentality and behavior of the majority today. We Rhinos see this clearly and are alarmed as anyone else about these realities. We only ask you conservatives join us so the good and mighty middle along with the good and mighty right can form a sensible second party that can win and restore
America to some degree.

Joe B| 2.25.09 @ 8:03AM

I leave to you all with a link to an amusing story in the SF Chronicle:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL&hw=veliz&sn=001&sc=1000
It's amusing on so many levels. Perhaps the title of the article should be "Plucky Son of Immigrant Takes Night Work to Save for College."

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:16AM

Summary:

The political elites of both parties have little to no incentive to condone enforcement of our existing immigration laws. They are corrupt and will only enact periodic amnesties to ensure we get some of these new "citizens" paying taxes - damn the social consequences.

They WILL attempt to force another amnesty down our collective throat, and they WILL fail again as it's not just angry GOP voters opposing it - its Democrats and independents as well. NOBODY except the race baiting latino activists, college diversity cultists and big money labor exploiters love the idea of transplanting an entire third world nation of spanish speakers into the middle of our country. It's unprecedented in human history and an obviously stupid idea to everyone except the aforementioned cretins and the AmSpec of course (because as well all know, this vast new nation-within-a-nation is chomping at the bit to vote for low taxes and will roundly reject increases in the size of government - am I right?)

End this stupidity once and for all. Demand enforcement first and severely penalize employers for hiring illegals and we will start to see some change.

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 9:20AM

OR offers our resident troll JTS this line: "JTS, you're an idiot. Regards, OR"

Of course he is, OR. And that's pretty typical of JTS and his crew of bomb-throwing, angry white men cynics who have faked being a Republican and cost the Party loss of the House, loss of the Senate, loss of the WhiteHouse and --I'm sure-- loss of 6-7 normally GOP-held governships this year. It's all about scapegoats and bigots for them; 24x7.

Afterall, JTS is part of that "chattering class" of classless idiots who would rather pray for an attack on America by jihadists instead of looking in the mirror and seeing the true face of terror and the greatest threat to America: their collective ignorance.

JTS proves the point: the GOP's worst enemy is hiding in the darkened recesses of society. Neo-Nativist bigots.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:26AM

Richard Nadler!

Who's paying you to shill for this America annhilating cause? How does it benefit (properly defined) conservatism to import a massive third world population right into the heart of our nation?

What end game do you forsee from all this that justifies this counter-intuitive policy of open borders immigration?

Is it all about big money interests benefiting from a steady re-supply of cheap labor streaming in from the various third world sewers to our south? Is that really what America is worth to you? I guess you can pick up and move if it gets too bad here right? You made your money after all...

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 9:32AM

And not to be outdone by a fellow-knuckle dragger, Nick tries to out-bigot JTS with this Nativist refrain: "Oh, wait a minute... You just did. And got your hats handed to you. And gave us B.O. to boot. Way to go, nimrods."

Sorry to burst that foggy bubble you're in, Nick, but the only ones that can be tagged with handing us Obama is KarlRove's now famous 4.1m soc-cons who sat on their collective Election Day couch in a sniting pout like 3rd graders and gave the election to Obama. Specifically, nimrods like you.

GOPers didn't walk away from their responsibility on Election Day. It was soc-con crybabies -still angered over McCain's and Bush's attempt to forge some reform on immigration. Exit polling underscores it was the #1 issue for Rove's 4.1m soc-con voters... and no amount of sandbagging, name-calling or disingenious twaddle from your end of the cry-baby room will change the role your team played in the ascension of Messiah-Obama.

Next time you want to debate, my suggestion is you to stick to the shallow end of the pool with JTS. It suits you better.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:38AM

"JTS proves the point: the GOP's worst enemy is hiding in the darkened recesses of society. Neo-Nativist bigots. "

Hi!

I'm a "nativist" bigot due to my desire to have the federal government actually enforce laws on the books regarding illegal immigration.

Does that statement sound stupid to you? It should, because the whole idea that you're a cross-burner simply because you recognize the costs of unhindered illegal immigration is asinine. "Asinine" of course sums up your line of troll wisdom pretty well though so keep firing off your idiotic comments here.

Here's something from one fellow michigander to another - I don't care about your worthless political party.

Your party (the GOP) is only a tool to enact a system of conservative governance and nothing more. This means, that if the GOP strays too far from ideological purity and ratchets up the spending like Democrats, dumps those that oppose Roe v Wade by accepting it as "settled law" or otherwise mimics the cretins in the Democratic party for cheap votes, I (and many others) stay home on election day and we get Pres. Obama.

Your job security as a GOP employee means nothing to me.

The GOP is worth supporting only as long as they show up with something worth supporting - get it? Single party rule split into two differently named parties doesn't appeal to me.

Scurry back to your hole now GOP troll nobody cares about your employer.

Wal-Mart's hiring I hear...

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:50AM

"GOPers didn't walk away from their responsibility on Election Day. It was soc-con crybabies -still angered over McCain's and Bush's attempt to forge some reform on immigration."

A GOP that perpetually supports periodic amnesties between long periods of un-enforced third world illegal immigration isn't worth supporting.

They will (the GOP) of course find ways to try to appeal to the brand new nation-within-a-nation which will of course drag them far further left as they try to compete with the Democrats to see how much welfare they can shower on our new "countrymen" and this will remove any further reason for any conservative to vote for them.

Who identifies themselves as a GOP voter? Why do you think anyone cares about the label "GOP?"

They either support sane, rational and traditional notions of governance of the type the founders espoused, as well as actually attempting to roll back the extreme excesses of the Democrats - (and not merely slow them down) or they become a me-too party unworthy of support.

Is any of this sinking in?

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:52AM

"GOPers didn't walk away from their responsibility on Election Day. It was soc-con crybabies -still angered over McCain's and Bush's attempt to forge some reform on immigration."

I'm not a "GOPer" when I happen to vote for a GOP candidate. I am an independent conservative voter who happened to find a gem in the pile of dung we all lovingly refer to as the "GOP."

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 10:04AM

"GOPers didn't walk away from their responsibility on Election Day. It was soc-con crybabies -still angered over McCain's and Bush's attempt to forge some reform on immigration."

Sooooo much idiocy wrapped up into these few words.

What "responsibility" did a conservative have to vote for open borders McCain?

Right, that would be "none." There was no way I was ever going to vote for the likes of him after the amnesty fiasco (as well as that other cretin Lindsey Graham should he ever pop his face up on the national scene) so it really doesn't matter what scary lib-tard they dig up to run against the GOP candidate. The GOPer has conservative street cred or not - if not, and I'm limited to voting for liberal candidates A and B, I'll stay home again (and again etc.)

Nick| 2.25.09 @ 11:51AM

Michigan Matt,

You and putz Schwarz and the rest of you mushy moderates don't seem to understand how elections work. It's not enough to be against the other guy. You have give the people something to vote FOR. McShamnesty had at least 5 strikes against him right from the start.

I held my nose and voted for him, like I did with Dole. But for every vote like mine, there were probably 2 or 3 that stayed home or didn't vote for Juan, like Churchill. And I would never blame them, like a dope. I blame the candidate for not givng them enough reasons to vote for him.

But keep on attacking social conservatives, Matt. Maybe in '12 you can get Linc Chafee nominated. As another Michigander, tell me, is Schwarz going to run for gov. in '10?

PolishKnight| 2.25.09 @ 12:07PM

Apparently, Ryan claims to not be a "plant" with his stories about better qualified and harder working latino labor for the money. Let's take his word at face value: the reason for this seemingly great bargain is precisely because these workers are not in a position to negotiate for better pay due to their illegality. What happens after amnesty? Think about it: Where are all those great, cheap workers from the last amnesty during the 80's? The answer is obvious: They're on welfare or other social entitlement programs sucking more money away from us in taxes then they ever provided for us in cost savings on shoddy construction.

Speaking of that: I know a number of people looking at buying homes but are either holding off since prices are falling and also reconsidering whether they want to buy homes made recently by illegal immigrant labor and the shortcuts they took. I heard a story that some cheap chinese materials apparently caused a weak hydrochloric acid gas to erode wiring and plumbing in the walls. They only want to look at homes made in the 70's and early 80's.

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 2:10PM

Churchill, the drive-by conservative, offers: "Here's something from one fellow michigander to another - I don't care about your worthless political party."

Proving my point that guys like you, the knee-jerk reactionary bigots, have hurt a Party that you don't care about... but then you cry, scream, pout and taunt all that McCain was the worst pick ever and the Party got what it deserved by running an "illegal amnesty" candidate.

Newsflash for you and the drive-by conservatives, McCain lost because of voter blowback to the farRightward 12-yr tilt of the GOP in Congress pushed on it by the vocal, extremist, reactionary RightWing soc-cons like you, Tom Delay, Duke Cunningham and lots of others.

Immigration, for those voters who SHOWED up on election day and acted responsibly in a civil society, was ranked as issue #17 by '08 voters in an IU-Midwest PoliSci Assn study. You know who really, really cared about the soc-cons harsh bigoted rhetoric laeding up to the 08 election? Hispanic and Latino voters Reagan-Bush-Bush had been working on attracting to the Party... you guys blew it for the GOP with your hatefilled, angry white-boi rantings.

The real problem, Churchill, is that guys like you continue to want to be "taken seriously" within the GOP, have the Party dance to your bigoted litmus tests and purity tests on extreme policy positions... while reducing your bigotry to something like "protecting America's safety" or "saving American jobs for Americans" or "just enforcing the laws"... all trite, assine smoke screens to cover for your hatred of anyone who is non-white... or, in your case, superior to your garden-type of trailer trash.

Sorry, but it aint working anymore for you, Churchill, or the other drive-by so-called "conservatives" who post here and use that great movement as an excuse to engage in hate.

Save your hate for the next Pride Parade... it's really where your type likes to party and protest, no?

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 2:19PM

Churchill, our resident drive-by conservative, again offers: "Sooooo much idiocy wrapped up into these few words. What "responsibility" did a conservative have to vote for open borders McCain?"

I agree Churchill, your question is pure idiocy.

What part of McCain's comments before the last CPAC mtg: "On immigration reform, my friends, I get it. We got it wrong. We need to put more effort into enforcement, securing the borders, tough sanctions on employers who hire illegals and pressure Mexico to cut down on the movement of illegal workers before they get to our border... before addressing the issue of immigration reform."

You were saying? Yeah, like shooting fish in a barrel bigot-boi.

And Nick offers: "I held my nose and voted for him, like I did with Dole." Good job, Mr Principles before Party Allegiance... I guess you blew that argument out the door, too?

BTW, JS won't run for MiGov in '12; nice try at diversion. You pushing a bigot like McCotter? Or is he your choice for derFuhrer?

Texas Tommy| 2.25.09 @ 2:23PM

Michigan Matt is another marxist whore infesting this thread. Loser liberal.

Texas Tommy| 2.25.09 @ 2:25PM

M-Matt, your Obama kneepads must be worn out by now. Time for a new pair.

Red Phillips| 2.25.09 @ 2:34PM

Michigan-Matt, you probably missed my comment (at 5:50) to you above because the comments were pouring in hot and heavy there for a while. So I'll repeat part of it.

There are few people more pathetically farcical than the anti-bigot bigot. So bigotry is bad, but it is perfectly fine to call people knuckle-draggers and display foaming at the mouth contempt for so-cons? Real nice. There is a word for that. It is called hypocrisy. Or do anti-bigots get a pass for their bigotry based on their own self-anointed moral superiority?

Read this, and then get over yourself.

http://www.etherzone.com/2009/phil021109.shtml

Nick| 2.25.09 @ 3:07PM

Michigan-Matt,

Why can't you understand McLame was lying at CPAC? He hired Juan Hernandez. He kowtowed to the National Council of the Racists (La Raza for those of you in Rio Linda). You were saying?

In your incoherent rant I didn't see any refutation of my point, so you agree McShamnesty didn't give anyone a reason to vote for him.

The gov. race is in '10, Did you work yourself into such a furor you couldn't think straight? Not that you ever could in the first place.

Ah yes... The nazi slur. The last refuge of the liberal winnie who has nothing of substance to offer.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 3:11PM

Michigan Matt:

"Proving my point that guys like you, the knee-jerk reactionary bigots, have hurt a Party that you don't care about... but then you cry, scream, pout and taunt all that McCain was the worst pick ever and the Party got what it deserved by running an "illegal amnesty" candidate."

You seriously lack the ability to formulate any rational argument worth replying to, but I'm bored so lets go...

Your definition of "knee-jerk reactionary bigot" basically means "someone wanting to see immigration laws enforced." It means nothing less, as that's what I want to see happen. Do you really and truly believe the idiocy you spew?

Try answering these questions if you have even a shred of non-troll intellectual integrity:

1. Do you really think the millions of Republicans, Democrats and independent voters out there that opposed the amnesty are ALL "knee jerk reactionary bigots?"

2. How am I a bigot for wanting to see laws enforced?

3. What's the purpose of even having laws if they are selectively (or not) enforced?

You, like many GOP kool-aid drinkers, fail to see the difference between an ideological vision of government (conservatism, liberalism etc.) and the political parties by which these visions are enacted in the political system.

Parties can drift back and forth on the spectrum for a variety of reasons, but the interests of self-described CONSERVATIVES do not change. The degree to which the GOP supports conservative ideals is directly proportional to the degree to which conservatives support the GOP.

This is not rocket science.

In this sense, nobody (worthwhile) "cares" about the GOP as a political party. They are simply a means to an end. If they respond to our wishes, they are rewarded with support. If they spit in our collective face with amnesty idiocy and continually prostrate themselves in front of the wall street money men, they are rewarded with me staying home on election night and popping the cork in celebration of yet another electoral defeat sustained by our glorious "right wing" party.

Figure it out, you seem to be a bit hazy on these concepts.

"The real problem, Churchill, is that guys like you continue to want to be "taken seriously" within the GOP, have the Party dance to your bigoted litmus tests and purity tests on extreme policy positions"

This is truly a gem of internet idiocy.

Your definition of a "bigoted litmus test" means EXACTLY:

"the desire to see immigration laws passed in our democratic system of governance enforced as all laws should be."

You are truly stupid. Please, please, please explain how the desire to see laws (created by Democrats and Republicans mind you) enforced makes ANYONE a bigot?

Yelling RACIST and BIGOT only gets you so far. Those of us with above room temperature IQ's need a little more than the idiotic spamming of your magic argument-avoidance mantra to close the intellectual deal.

I - having well developed notions of what a political conservative actually means - am not a "drive by conservative" I am an ACTUAL conservative, while you are a sycophantic tool of a worthless set of would-be government employees.

The GOP can go DIAF (in the internet lingo) if they refuse to toe the line. If they want to appeal to that section of the American electorate that self identifies as "conservatives" they better show something tangible to us to deserve that support.

Care to respond?

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 3:22PM

"What part of McCain's comments before the last CPAC mtg: "On immigration reform, my friends, I get it. We got it wrong. We need to put more effort into enforcement, securing the borders, tough sanctions on employers who hire illegals and pressure Mexico to cut down on the movement of illegal workers before they get to our border... before addressing the issue of immigration reform.""

What part of "he's a liar and not worth trusting on immigration issues" do you not understand?

You are really and truly stupid if you buy anything pols sell at face value RIGHT BEFORE AN ELECTION. Are you the type of idiot that actually believes campaign rhetoric? Are you serious?

I put a lot more into what McCains record shows in terms of votes and positions advocated over the long haul than some last minute blathering before an election.

He fails the ideological litmus test. He is a tool of the money interests that want a steady stream of illiterate, low skilled labor and not worth any exertion in any voting booth - for any elective office, let alone POTUS.

Do you see a pattern here?

I actually use my brain when deciding on whether or not to support any candidate for office and refuse to buy into your moronic rah-rah win one for the gipper GOP mentality.

Once again: They toe the conservative line and receive my vote, or the spit in my face and receive no support.

Get it yet?

You and Nadler both seem to feel an asinine sense of entitlement when it comes to conservative votes. The GOP doesn't own me the same way it apparently owns you so I reserve the right to not cast a vote for any of that motley crew of "right wing" socialists.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 3:39PM

Where are you Mich-Matt?

Fantasizing of living in a one party social democratic state?

Sacha| 2.25.09 @ 3:56PM

It was the economy, stupid. Republican candidates had almost recovered from the Iraq quagmire due to the success of surge, but then the financial crisis hit in mid-September, and almost all GOP candidates took a heavy hit in the polls. Add to this that Obama drew out many people who usually did not vote, so that that participation rate in this election was dramatically up compared to other elections, and you have a Dem victory. Also, McCain said during the financial crisis that "The Fundamentals of the economy are strong." And he was fundamentally wrong and it indicated he would be a poor president for managing the economy, so he deserved to lose. Nadler, you sure are stupid.

Nadler thinks we are going to give up the sovereignty country because Hispanics want open borders? We have perfectly reasonable and duly enacted immigration laws. A nation has the right to control its borders. First, show me that Hispanics really want illegals to stay. Second, explain to them that the reason this country is not like the countries south-of-the-border is due to the rule of law. These people intentionally broke the law. There are 1 billion other people around the world who could replace them. I do not consider illegals worthy of being a part of this country and would be willing to fight in a civil war over it.

whiterb| 2.25.09 @ 4:46PM

El Cid, you so scary. I remind you that before Nazis could be hunted a bunch of white guys had to kick the crap out of the mighty third Reich. The same white guys who kicked the crap outa Mexico once upon a time. Like that Japenese Admiral said after Pearl Harbor , " we've awakened a sleeping giant ". Let's take it to the streets you lefty ahole,where once and for all the day that has to come will come. That is why I keep myself in good shape at sixty. I want a piece of guys like you while can still deliver some hurt. Snicker all you want, just please come for me and my fellow Americans. Another words, go ahead, make my day.

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 5:24PM

I fully realize that bigots hate having the proverbial white sheet pulled off their heads, but several of you have already admitted that you aren't GOPers, don't care about the Party, probably aren't even real Americans or patriots so then, why should we care what you think? Let alone, respond to a set of questions when you don't even take the civil responsibility of voting seriously? How dense can it be for you to learn what "loyalty" means to a Party? I know, I know; you just want to bitch, vent your angry white man cynical spleens and feel good at the end of the day that you denied someone a chance at the American Dream. "America for Americans" firsters, is it? I just call 'em Neo-Nativists wearing an old white sheet.

Here's the deal: you abide by the choices made within the GOP on policy and candidates, practice voting in at least two subsequent federal elections on a straight GOP ballot, work in at least one campaign where you think the candidate it too liberal for your special little racist litmus test and then you can bark questions at me. 'til then, YOU don't matter beyond being made a point of illustration about what's wrong with America and her new Nativist yapping dawgs.

I don't respond to junk yard dog trailer trash bigots hiding under white sheets. And I sure don't worry about winning debates with trolls like Churchill, Nick, Texas Tommy and RedPhilips.

We call you guys "drive-by conservatives" because you wouldn't know what true conservatism is if it could walk up to you, yank off those white sheets and pay your taxi fare back to the Klan meetings. And that's Nadler's central point.

Nadler has it right. The GOP doesn't need knuckle-dragging, knee jerk soc-cons who destroy political alliances built over a generation of hard work and outreach.

You just need to find a JohnBirchSociety meeting and get with the Hate Program to feel "all complete".

It's a shame we even allow trolls to offer opinions here --but, I guess, maybe that's ok, as long as responsible people unmask your hatred, bigotry and destructive impulses.

My advice to you: 1) find rock, 2) lift rock, 3) crawl back under and stay til racism and hatred drives out reason in the conservative movement. Because until then, you guys stick out like a sore thumb on a blind carpenter's hand.

And you sure an heck have no place in the GOP... please see Duncan Hunter's failed bid for the nomination and his 13th place finish.

With all due respect, of course.

Wisconsin-Wally| 2.25.09 @ 5:24PM

Where are you, Mich-Matty, did you soil yourself again?

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 5:28PM

Our "drive-by-conservative" offers: "I put a lot more into what McCains record shows in terms of votes and positions advocated over the long haul than some last minute blathering before an election. He fails the ideological litmus test. He is a tool of the money interests that want a steady stream of illiterate, low skilled labor and not worth any exertion in any voting booth - for any elective office, let alone POTUS."

Actually, as far as "... illiterate, low skilled labor and not worth any exertion in any voting booth..." goes, I submit your name and self-avowed claim that you didn't vote in the election.

Low skilled, illiterate you might be, Churchill. I'd suggest you get out of the trailer park and take some GED courses, no?

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 5:29PM

Wisconsin Willy (LOL), read much, dude?

Wow, that is even more dense than Churchill and the other drive-by trolls.

Michigan-Matty| 2.25.09 @ 5:42PM

I told you Whitey Conservatives that payback is coming and payback's a bitch, like me!

WW| 2.25.09 @ 5:44PM

That's Wisconsin-WALLY, stupid libturd.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 6:00PM

Mich-Matt

You are about as worthless as the party you are so enamored with.

Your asinine "argument" consists only "KKK racists!" chanting and ignoring any counter arguments that actually have substance.

I believe you and Scott are one and the same. Good job trolling though, you had me fooled. I actually thought you were serious.

I'll try to re-phrase my argument for you in a simple, easy to understand format that you will hopefully answer (on the chance you aren't simply trolling us.)

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a political conservative agenda?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct?

"I don't respond to junk yard dog trailer trash bigots hiding under white sheets. And I sure don't worry about winning debates with trolls like Churchill, Nick, Texas Tommy and RedPhilips."

You don't directly respond to my questions because you have no legitimate answers. You fail at intelligent argumentation, and offer only asinine and mindlessly repeated charges of RACIST RACIST RACIST.

This is why I think you're a troll (albeit a somewhat successful one as you have me responding to you.)

If you're not, how about actually answering my questions.

Be specific.

I wish Nadler would jump in here to take the same b-tch slapping you're taking. He would leave the same way....whimpering, sputtering and grasping for new ways to re-phrase "racist."

Scurry back to your hole now vermin. Return when you're ready to be intellectually honest.

Pennsylvania Pepe| 2.25.09 @ 6:09PM

Mushy Michigan-Matt Marxist does not speak for me. He is a brain-dead libturd.

Conservative Triumph| 2.25.09 @ 6:25PM

Michigan-Matty tucked tail and ran. What else would we expect from a yellow-bellied liberal loser?

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 8:27PM

I guess Mich-Matt bugged off in estrogen soaked fright.

I thereby conclude that I am the winner of our online argument as all he had to offer in response to any of my posts was a few hundred variations of "white trash KKK member neo-nazi blah blah"

Now if Nadler would show up to defend his column to those that (pretty easily) refuted his logic, this column and attached opinion forum would be complete.

Mysterious Conservative| 2.25.09 @ 8:34PM

Churchill, don't take all of the credit, you had some help, son. ;)

R. Solis| 2.25.09 @ 9:29PM

As a latino, I voted for the GOP in 2000, '02 and '04. Though I agree with the fundamentals of enforcing the law, the argument devolved into a latino-bashing event by most on the right, culminating with me being spat on (Central Texas) by some zealots who yelled "go back south of the border spic!"
Sorry, I am never voting for the GOP again as long as its hijacked by a bunch of haters.

Frosty| 2.25.09 @ 9:54PM

Too bad you voted marxists in because of a couple of racist yahoos. Short sighted--you won't have any freedom under their socialist takeover. I've been called names before, but I didn't run to liberals to protect me; they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 9:55PM

R. Solis

Where was this "latino bashing" you speak of? Are you referring only to that small group of idiots that assaulted you? Do you really think that's representative of the vast majority of people that support enforcement of our immigration laws rather than unfettered illegal access mixed with periodic amnesties?

Above all, do why would you blame Republicans for this "latino bashing" when people across the political spectrum and voters of both parties objected to the amnesty?

Like you I am never voting for the GOP again, though my reasons have more to do with their complete and total lack of philosophical integrity and not just a single, uncomfortable encounter with a small pack of drunken idiots.

Go with God though, as there are far worse fates then those which await people who reject the right wing socialist party. "Fate" in that case being "increased sanity and self-respect coming from the refusal to be propagandized and taken advantage of."

whiterb| 2.25.09 @ 10:06PM

R.Solis, what happened was wrong and no responsible republican, VAST MAJORITY, approves. But, before you go 100 per cent democrat go to San Fransisco and proclaim you believe marriage is for a man and a women, or that you support the military's right to have a recruiting office. Then compare notes on each experience. See what you think then.

Frosty| 2.25.09 @ 10:11PM

The worst bigots I've ever known were liberals. Their 'tolerance' is BS. Look at the vicious liberal haters on this thread alone. Pro aborts are the worst.

R. Solis| 2.25.09 @ 10:12PM

Sorry guys above, you weren't there when these idiots asaulted me, and I don't think you know the feeling - that these fools could've strung me up at any time. I am just no longer comfortable with the GOP at the current time.
Point taken Churchill, but regardless of who's in power, the US will carry on. I totally reject the fearmongering on both sides - there'll be an election in 2010, '12, '14 etc. I don't believe that Obama's a marxist and that the GOP is a totally racist entity.
Liberals vs. Conservatives - please people lets get over this, its becoming a broken records - we're all Americans regardless of race, ideology and the rest - New Hampshire is no more american than New Mexico.

Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 10:21PM

My God!! So this is where all the minority-bashers live! Wow, I think that if many of you check the date, its 2009, not 1955!! I think I can vote without people in white sheets riding and burning down my house - may I suggest what many of you want to see happen to hispanics and other minorities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
http://www.emmetttillmurder.com/

Good Day to All.

ruth| 2.25.09 @ 10:26PM

Mr. Solis, my sincere apology for the actions of these jerks, but please, don't think they speak for me or any of my conservative friends. If I had been there I would have stood with you. And I wish you were right about Obama, but he is a marxist. ACORN permanently changes the election process--look how the demos are trying to steal the senate seat in Minnesota. I am very worried.

Frosty| 2.25.09 @ 10:28PM

Look at the liberal haters like Valdez. We will never have peace because liberals like this clown don't want it.

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 10:40PM

R Solis,

"Conservative" and "liberal" aren't going away because they identify two very well developed lines of ideological thought with regards to the proper size and scope of the Federal government and a great many other political questions.

Go through the positions, check the boxes on any number of issues and you will find yourself falling on one side or the other unless you (like a great many voters probably) are so irrational as to take ideologically conflicting positions into the voting booth.

Everything will ultimately hum along to the tune of social democratic political theory as that's the desired end point for the Republican and Democratic parties. The GOP in control from the Clinton era onward pretty much proved that point through their incessant and asinine enlargement of the federal government - even as their rhetoric drifted in the other direction.

Contentious elections with ideological stakes are a bit too scary for the political elites, they like these elections "Lawrence Welk" bland and totally devoid of any real possibility of divergence from their accepted political theories and aforementioned desired end point.

They prefer the zombified, unthinking masses of Michigan-Matts, mindlessly shambling into the voting booth to perpetually rubber stamp for Team A or Team B - again, with nothing other than the politicians resume at stake.

Am I wrong? What then did the GOP do to prove me wrong in their time in power?

Churchill| 2.25.09 @ 10:45PM

Valdez

You're stupid. Go read through some of my posts and then come back and answer the questions I posed to the other lefty trolls if you have any intellectual integrity.

Or you can mindlessly drop your R bombs - and you'll be right at the intellectual level of most of these GOP apologists/public employees.

Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 10:55PM

Troll? Anger will get you nowhere Churchill. Being a public servant is a bad thing? Where are you people living - in Mississippi in the 1950s? Please, quit being an anarchist - after watching pics of that murder (Till), I'm trembling at what far-right ideologues like you have in mind for minorities.
And to Solis - what you experienced is what the GOP has in store for you should they ever regain power - take a look at some of the posts above, including ruth's.

Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:08PM

I'm back with a new name. Just call me: Scott, Michigan Matt, Interloper, Jeremiah. I am just too much of a libturd to admt it. I am a coward.

Scott F./Mich-Matt/Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:13PM

Mr. Churchill, please forgive me for my nasty liberal bigotry toward you. In a million years I'll never be half the man you are. In fact, I am not a man at all, I am a liberal.

The Real Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:17PM

Who the hell are those people? Don't tell me that I'm other commentators. Again I repeat - take al look at the future of all minorities in the US - Do you people enjoy hating - must be a pastime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
http://www.emmetttillmurder.com/

Later!

The Real Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:18PM

Hey Churchill, perhaps I should list more sites for you to get more ideas on how to deal with the influx of latinos. Just say the word.

The Real Real Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:22PM

I am Interloper the idiot or Obama Rules the A-Hole. Take your pick, either way I'm a loser liberal.

Michigan-Matt| 2.25.09 @ 11:25PM

Hey, Valdez, are you that guy who sells coffee on commercials? Juan Valdez, right? What are you doing here, you must be an illegal.

Obama Rules| 2.25.09 @ 11:31PM

Sorry, folks, my tourettes-tic has been actin' up real bad tonight. Gotta go take my meds, too bad they don't work. Please pray for me.

The Real Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:31PM

I'm shaking in my boots - as Solis said above - you might kill me Emmett Till style. Afterall, its what conservatives are good at.

The Real Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:38PM

I lied. That shaking in my boots is actually a tourettes-tic attack like Obama Rules. Pray for me, good, holy Conservatives, because I am a Godless atheist--unless my Obama fetish counts. I'm into feet, you know.

Valdez| 2.25.09 @ 11:44PM

Nice stealing of names! I best retire before I'm lynched - I think thats a pastime of the right - and like Till, you usually gouge eyes out to after the hangings. It must be great to be (and feel) racially superior.
Later Churchill - dont be late for your Klan-inspired lynching tomorrow!!

Valdez/Scott/Obama Rules| 2.25.09 @ 11:49PM

Help me! I'm drowning in my own liberal bile. I love you, Conservatives. Night, night. How about a kiss, kiss? No? Why ever not? Sorry I'm such an A-Hole.

Nick| 2.25.09 @ 11:56PM

Valdez,

Actually, lynching was a pastime of democrats!

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:00AM

It was a pastime of conservatives who WERE democrats - they're all on your side now.

Conservative| 2.26.09 @ 12:01AM

Turd.

Obama Rules| 2.26.09 @ 12:05AM

Nick, go easy on Juan Valdez; he has to get up early in the morning to get that burro up the mountain. Colombian coffee, you know.

Interloper| 2.26.09 @ 12:14AM

Well, at least he claimed it was Colombian coffee, but considering the fact he's a liberal, it's probably that other (you know, wink wink) Colombian crop. It does little to help his tourettes attacks, though: Must be spittle all over his computer screen. Ewwww.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:17AM

My job of proving all of you are racists is done. I think if any minority takes a look at your language, 99% of them will vote for Obama by 2012. I just love it when the right destroy themselves because of their hatred of non-whites. For the next 4 years, I'm going to relax, as you become a deep south (VA and NC dont count anymore) bunch of idiots as America changes for the better - even the mid-west is moving towards a tolerant America.

Happy lynching (blacks preferred I think) guys!!!

Viki Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:20AM

You sexist liberal pig. What about the gals? Bigot.

Jeremiah| 2.26.09 @ 12:23AM

2012? Forget it, you stupid liberals will be run out of town on a rail in 2010 when your stupid marxist policies have Americans starving in the streets.

Nick| 2.26.09 @ 12:24AM

Valdez,

I thought you were retiring? Stinking liberals just can't tell the truth.

That's right, you bleeding hearts just want to lynch unborn babies (fetus in latin).
Not on my side, pal. I don't know anybody who wants to lynch anyone. We religious conservatives believe in God, unlike you libs.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:25AM

Sorry Viki, I thought the women cheered it on! If you want to take part - go ahead. I'll scan the news to see if your lynchings made it on prime-time.
Oh, Viki, don't forget the swastikas and confederate flags: makes it more impressionable.

Later! Happy Lynching - don't forget to take out the eyes (see Till's body)!

Valdez is Obama Rules| 2.26.09 @ 12:26AM

I'm a little loser trust fund baby.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:28AM

You believe in God, yet you segregate your churches, and I'm speaking from experience. I'm sure God appreciates you - the Klan were the most religeous zealots in America. I see no difference.

Viki Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:29AM

Yeah, see, you bigot liberals always subjugate women. Pig. I'd kick you somewhere if there was anything there to kick.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:31AM

I did the segregating because I can't stand getting too close to minorities. You know, NIMBY.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:34AM

I want my women in burkas, and with Obama's stupid national security policies, I'll get my wish. Sharia Law for all!! Ahhh, the ankle.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:35AM

Identity theft gone wild! Have fun hunting down and lynching minorities! May I suggest you hide the weapons in your churches? Don't worry, right-wingers won't see it as a crime - but a favor.

That's all - see you around the burning cross!

Later!

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 12:37AM

Take care of your burro.

Nick| 2.26.09 @ 12:39AM

Valdez,

Actually, the klan would've lynched me. I'm Roman Catholic. No segregation at our parish. And I live in Michigan.

But thanks for showing us all prejudice in action, appreciate it.

Viki| 2.26.09 @ 12:47AM

But don't take TOO good care of your burro, you little liberal pervert.

Valdez| 2.26.09 @ 12:56AM

But my burro is the only woman who understands me. Any port in a storm, as they say.

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 7:22AM

Well, let's recap last night's church-burnings, minority lynchings and pure hateful, bigoted Nativist, knuckle-bragging from Churchill, Nick and the other idiots who parade themselves as "conservatives" but couldn't even drive-by a conservative if would save their sorry butts.

We have the trolls for hire like Nick, Churchill and half-dozen others using other people's names to fake postings and engage in low-brow, 3rd grade tactics...

We have idiot bigots who want to jump on board that train before it leaves the station, all high-fives and whoop-whoops for the boys in under the white sheets...

And then we have the garden variety and not too creative "bully-your -intellectual-superiors" to silence 'em by calling 'em sissies or alternately trying a fake claim that it's Churchill, Nick and the other knuckle-draggers who are the real men.

Gotta love those farRight trolls! They never learn new techniques, continue to shoot themselves in their collective butts and still think the South will beat Sherman one day... if they just wait long enough and make up enough white sheeted hoods.

What pathetic boobs. And you guys pass for "conservatives" in your neck of the woods?

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 7:26AM

BTW GrandKnightNick, if you are indeed a practicing Roman Catholic --which I honestly doubt in a most fundamental way... no inveterate liar and hate mongering could make in 5 minutes in the pew these days-- you'd better make certain everyone down here is praying for your sorry soul when it hits Pergie-land... you've got a few generations' worth of sin, hate, racism, lying and immoral conduct to atone for.

Just saying, is all.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 9:22AM

Mich-Matt rears his ugly head to take a look around long after bugging out. humiliated, beaten and afraid to answer just a few simple questions. I'll try again though, as I think his lack of spine amuses most of us.

" I'll try to re-phrase my argument for you in a simple, easy to understand format that you will hopefully answer (on the chance you aren't simply trolling us.)"

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Answer those or confirm yourself a troll. If you're a troll, please return and dump a few thousand more variations of "racist" and avoid any attempts at seeming smart.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 9:26AM

"Gotta love those farRight trolls!"

Trolling knows no political allegiance - you should know that....troll.

It's really too bad these forums aren't moderated as you would be getting swept out the door along with your other lefty personas (various Valdez's, Scott F, Richard Nadler etc. etc. etc.)

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 9:51AM

Churchill, what part of reading comprehension class did you miss in 4th grade? See the above post at 2/25/ 5:24 PM. You've been answered already --not that anyone thinks it could penetrate that thick-walled stone you call your brain.

I already told you, when you barked your junkyard dog questions at me earlier in this post that "I fully realize that bigots hate having the proverbial white sheet pulled off their heads, but several of you have already admitted that you aren't GOPers, don't care about the Party, probably aren't even real Americans or patriots so then, why should we care what you think? Let alone, respond to a set of questions when you don't even take the civil responsibility of voting seriously? How dense can it be for you to learn what "loyalty" means to a Party? I know, I know; you just want to bitch, vent your angry white man cynical spleens and feel good at the end of the day that you denied someone a chance at the American Dream. "America for Americans" firsters, is it? I just call 'em Neo-Nativists wearing an old white sheet. "

There's only one set of trolls on this website... it's the Neo-Nativist hatemongering set you represent as its poster-boi.

You need to spend some time learning about real conservative patriots --not your variety of fake conservatives using the movement to masquerade their hate and venom toward the real American Dream.

The South lost, Churchill. Lincoln freed the slaves. Progress has bypassed your redneck, trailer-park livin' sorry ass. Go peddle that hate in another forum.

As Nadler points out: you and your ilk are irrelevant and your positions promoting hate toward wanna-be Americans is counter-productive. You lost the GOP one race; you gave us Obama. Stop so Americans and GOPers can correct all your mistakes, ok?

And get some lessons in reading comprehension. You're as big a failure in that skill and you are in promoting a logical argument without hate as a core, family value.

No one is hiding from you, Churchill. But there are lots who ignore your trolling and taunts.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 10:09AM

Mich-Matt

You again prove you are too gutless to answer those very basic questions. What are you afraid of? Having to bash out some non troll thought for a few paragraphs?

"but several of you have already admitted that you aren't GOPers,"

You (and nobody else mind you) is a GOPer unless you get paychecks from the GOP. The rest of us are independent voters with political inclinations widely identified as "conservative."

How are you a GOPer exactly? Do you work for a state or federal level rep/sentator or for the RNC? I doubt that - even the GOP has some standards and you have catastropically failed to bring any intelligent counter arguments other than blathering racist in a thousand different variations.

"when you don't even take the civil responsibility of voting seriously?"

According to your line of (idiots) logic, I would be shirking my civic duties as an american should I bug out on election day and not vote in a Stalin vs Mao contest. You tell me how voting in a lib-candidate A vs lib-candidate B contest in any way advances a conservative political agenda.

"How dense can it be for you to learn what "loyalty" means to a Party?"

How "loyal" are you to the Home Depot? If they have something worth purchasing, you show up and make an informed decision after judging the merits of the purchase to spend money or not - then you go home NOT labeled a "Home Depot-er" just a consumer that found a product that served his interests and at the right price. Party loyalty is for idiots (like you evidently) that can't differentiate between political philosophies. "I vote Democrat/Republican because my dad/mom always voted Democrat/Republican." Idiocy.

"You need to spend some time learning about real conservative patriots --not your variety of fake conservatives using the movement to masquerade their hate and venom toward the real American Dream. "

This is pure trolling no further comment necessary.

"As Nadler points out: you and your ilk are irrelevant and your positions promoting hate toward wanna-be Americans is counter-productive. "

You still haven't pointed out how exactly why the desire to see immigration laws enforced makes someone a racist. Why not take a stab at defining that exactly. Until then you're spewing rank idiocy - all troll style and no substance.

And because I am so generous, I will give you another shot at answering these basic questions which you seem so afraid of.

" I'll try to re-phrase my argument for you in a simple, easy to understand format that you will hopefully answer (on the chance you aren't simply trolling us.)"

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Answer those or confirm yourself a troll. If you're a troll, please return and dump a few thousand

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 12:09PM

Churchill, our resident drive-by "conservative", continues to fail any recognition of what "reading comprehension" means to even a poorly educated, hopelessly angry, bigoted and cynical white guy begging for attention. And this last post proves he's still a beggar for attention. Pathetic.

Repeating for Churchill, the drive-by NeoNativist troll, I said earlier in this discussion, "I fully realize that bigots hate having the proverbial white sheet pulled off their heads, but several of you have already admitted that you aren't GOPers, don't care about the Party, probably aren't even real Americans or patriots so then, why should we care what you think? Let alone, respond to a set of questions when you don't even take the civil responsibility of voting seriously?"

I guessing you still won't get it, Churchill. Or Nick. Or Wisconsin Willy. Or whatever name you'll be going by this evening after the hit of McDonalds and 12 pack of Bud Light.

Let's see, what's next for Churchill?

If his conduct of the past is any indicator, we'll have some anonymous postings agreeing with his perspicacious insights and ragging on all others who disagree as sissies, fag lovers, marxists or --worst epithet around his knuckle-dragging thugs--
"liberal", complete with some scare quotes around the label.

Sorry, you're still a hate-monger and bigot, Churchill. And, given your admission of failure to participate in the last natl election, you're also someone who even Ronald Reagan would find repulsive. Pathetic and repulsive.

Gheesh, you don't even exercise the vote franchise? You're clearly uninformed on the issues of immigration, immigration reform, border security and the role of illegal labor in our economy. Let alone, conversant with what candidate McCain said about the former issues at CPAC. Your response to date: "He lied. They all do. Can't trust 'em." But we can trust your bigoted, hatefilled views? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Right, just like we can believe you are now suddenly interested in constructive dialogue about immigration reform, illegal labor, natl security or even the price of eggs.

The simple facts are, by your admission, you don't vote. You don't care about the GOP. You think the GOP not listening to you and your fellow knuckle-dragging soc-con bigots was the reason for so many defeats in the elections... and on and on and on and on with the flat-out freaky delusional mis-justifications of a marginalized bigot. Newsflash, bigot-boi, the soc-con corruption of the GOP Congress is what led to the last series of electoral defeats... that, and the knuckle-draggers hijacking a Party intended on helping America rather than making Americans fit one-size-for-all.

I don't do questions from a snapping, yapping, junkyard dawg like you. Your disloyalty to the conservative movement in the last election --and the ascendancy of Obama as a direct result of that disloyalty-- makes you beyond irrelevant.

Now, it's more like pathetic. Pathetic loser who is self-made carbon copy of 4.1 million soc-cons who sat out the last election and gave America, gave our troops, gave our future over to Obama. And you still don't get "it".

Yep, pathetic it is.

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 12:16PM

By the way, Churchill, the web masters here confirm that you posted under at least 15 fake names between your post at 10:45 and when you had finally succeeded in driving everyone from this forum at 12:56.

Pathetic in your desire to taunt others you'd actually make up names and postings?

Gheesh, you gotta get out of your Mom's basement, find a sheep and start living.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 12:25PM

Mich-Matt reaches a new low...

You are pathetic. The webmasters here will easily and quickly confirm that I post only under one email address fool and from one single IP address - so in addition to failing catastrophically at political philosophy, you fail miserably at technology.

Now you resort to lying in a pathetic attempt to tar me as the troll you are? No. Any webmaster/site admin can easily verify where and when I post and from what IP address so if what you say were actually true, they would do so and be justified in deleting any of those troll comments. And really, while they're at it, they could easily delete all of your troll comments due to an absolute lack of any substantial intellectual value.

Lets sum up again because you fail at reading as badly as you do technology:

Nobody (worthwhile) "cares" about the GOP. If they nominate another open borders advocating tool like John McCain that candidate will enjoy a large lack of support from conservatives which make up the base of the party. - Is this hard to understand? Voting isn't intended to keep low level GOP hacks like you in jobs, its intent is to register the will of a large portion of the electorate that favor conservative political ideas over the competing statist model offered by all Democrats and many of not most of the GOP.

Your entire argument consists of repeating "racist" and "knuckle dragging soc-con" go learn some new buzzwords and freshen up your debate terminology.

You utterly fail if you're actually attempting to make a point. You are spectacularly successful as a troll though so my advice to you is to continue blathering racist in as many variations as possible while ignoring the following questions:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 12:29PM

Consider yourself reported to the site admins for making those idiotic accusations regarding me trolling with aliases.

If you can't win an argument legitimately, don't ignorantly try to lie about what the site admins here monitor and find about poster aliases/IP addresses.

If you do again try to lie, at least learn enough about internet technology to make it sound plausible.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 12:33PM

Tell me Michigan-Matt, you think that we should have supported McCain based up on that deathbed conversion to "enforcement first" right? Didn't you label that political position as overtly racist in your 300 previous posts?

Right.

Fail.

Now go away and never post here again as you have thoroughly discredited yourself through illogical arguments (vote for McCain the racist!) and false accusations of trolling.

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 1:31PM

Churchill, maybe it'd better for all of us here still interested in having a constructive, earnest dialogue about immigration and the adverse impact of pseudo-conservative like you who drive-by and taint the movement, while taunting all IF --and it's a big if, I know-- you started first debating yourself in the mirror and polish up that skill set of your's that is in pathetic state of affairs.

You've got the perfect excuse: no one is listening to your bigoted, Neo-Nativist hate-filled rants anymore.

You've been thoroughly discredited.

You've been outed as a troll of the worst sort... bully, liar, fraudulent poster and imposter.

I think it best for all here if you just got a mirror for your room in your Mom's basement and practice those skill sets a little before coming up into the daylight again.

Honest, a little self-restraint will help you and all the rest of us immensely.

Declare whatever you are so inclined to pitch and spin. At the end of the day you have only your angry white man cynic act to play and that's the real definition of pathetic.

Troll & drive-by "conservative", heal thyself, please!

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 1:36PM

And Churchill, Nick, Wisconsin Willy, Viki, et al... a suggestion for you: be sure to spend some time on reading for comprehension.

The community has been tolerant of you, but how many times does it take for you to hear "We don't answer to snapping, yipping, cry-baby junk yard dawgs?" for you to comprehend re-posting the silliness won't advance any discussion.

Reading for comprehension, Churchill-Nick-Viki-Wisconsin Willy et al.

Texas Tommy& Pennsylvania Pepe| 2.26.09 @ 1:58PM

But what about us, Mich-Mitty? You forgot about us. Slipping, old boy--must be the drugs. Nothing funnier than a stupid liberal troll outraged because someone is messing with him. Clown.

Michigan-Mitty| 2.26.09 @ 2:04PM

I got up on the wrong side of my nazi bed today, Mr. Churchill. So sorry for my bed-wetting, churlish behavior. But a liberal's got to make a living, right? Some of us actually work, even though it's hard to believe.

Michigan-Matty| 2.26.09 @ 2:07PM

By the way, I share that burro with Valdez. She's a looker.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 2:18PM

"Churchill, maybe it'd better for all of us here still interested in having a constructive, earnest dialogue about immigration and the adverse impact of pseudo-conservative like you who drive-by and taint the movement, while taunting all IF --and it's a big if, I know-- you started first debating yourself in the mirror and polish up that skill set of your's that is in pathetic state of affairs. "

You're an idiot AND a liar.

Do you really think that labeling everyone that supports the enforcement of immigration laws as "knuckle dragging soc-cons" and "KKK members" really promotes earnest, intellectually honest dialogue?

You have failed to make any rational case for open border immigration policy and you have failed to answer any of my oft-posted questions and to top it all off, you have failed at internet technology by accusing me of trolling under various names when the site admins could easily check to see what IP addres I post from to verify that moronic claim.

Fail. Fail. Fail.

If your intention was to make the GOP kool-aid drinking crowd look even more moronic to political conservatives that may randomly stumble into this thread you have succeeded. If your intention was to just crassly troll the enforcement first advocates here you have done a pretty sterling job - but at the same time, allowed people like me to post why the Nadlers of this world are exactly wrong and why they should be drummed out of the GOP to (potentially) make it a party worth supporting at some distant point in the future.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 2:19PM

Here you go again Mich-Matt!

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 3:05PM

Are you kidding? Barney Frank is my hero, who do you think bought me my burro?

Michigan-Matt| 2.26.09 @ 4:40PM

Wow and now, not to be outdone in his earlier stupidity, Churchill the drive-by conservative troll (you got called that first, Churchill) elects to play more schoolyard bully moves from that great Klan Primer: "Teachin' us sum libbrals how to be respectiating us and stuff".

BTW, the ploy of using fraudulent postings, posting fake comments like their mine or others and generally continuing a well worn pattern of lying and deceit only undercuts your points, Churchill --weak as they may be.

Rep Frank isn't my hero. He's the epitome of what's wrong with America, Congress and the Democrats.

But don't let that common ground get in the way of a little gay-bashing taunt by indirection, now will you... Mr Slick White Sheeted Boi. Bigots who hate latino, who hate Mexicans, who hate gays... you got a real class act there going for you.

Churchill| 2.26.09 @ 5:20PM

Mich-Matt

Quit posting until you show everyone a little intellectual honesty and answer these questions....this feels like the 100th time I've posted these for you, what are you so scared of?

Answer or shut up and move on.

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Jeremiah| 2.26.09 @ 5:25PM

Michigan-Matt, you little butt-boy you, hope I didn't hurt your feelings about Barney. It's okay by me if you have a thing for the congressman. More power to ya, bro.

Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 5:32PM

Oh, Matty, by the way--correct usage is; they're mine, not their mine. Just a little refresher course for you.

Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 6:15PM

Why are people faking identities? DON'T BE RIGHT-WING COWARDS, just identify yourselves.

The Real Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 6:32PM

Stop whining, faker Scott F. Argue your stupid liberal points, man, and stop stealing my name. You're a crying liberal weenie just like your fat-mouthed fellow liberal troll Michigan-Matty.

Nick| 2.26.09 @ 7:10PM

WOW!

I see I missed alot today. Matty-boy seems to be out of thorazine! And he's bigoted against Catholics, what a shock.

No wonder the Michigan GOP is in the shape it's in, when it has incompetents like Matt working for it. I'm no expert in grammar, I was indoctrinated by ex-hippies in public schools. But I learned the difference between "THEY'RE" and "THEIR" in 4th grade. What a moron.

Conservative Zinger| 2.26.09 @ 8:29PM

Matty got knocked off his obnoxious liberal game, Nick. Wasn't tough to do, he's a liberal weenie, after all. I don't bother to answer abusive marxists like him, it's ridicule all the way baby! Conservatives like Nick have got way too much class to bother with losers like MM. Who wants to hang with garbage?

Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 9:39PM

Oops, I must have been high (again). Liberals own the moniker, coward. Conservative men are the bomb!

Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 9:57PM

Oops, I think some people are cranky because they missed their KKK meetings today - may I suggest a late night neo-nazi meeting for any of you? Then again, as Valdez states above, most of you may opt for the lynching of a black/latino instead.

Scott F.| 2.26.09 @ 11:05PM

Silly me! Valdez is a latino, why would he call for the lynching of his fellow latinos? That's my job!! Gotta get me a burro, man, just like the frisky little minx Barney gave Michigan-Matty.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 7:05AM

Nick, another drive-by "conservative" bigot and alter ego of Churchill offers: "And he's bigoted against Catholics, what a shock."

Bzzzzt. Wrong again, Nick. My parish priest of 35 yrs, my parents, my godparents, my sons who are altar boys and the people in the pew I sit next on a DAILY BASIS (you dolt) would be surprised to learn that a Catholic who attends daily Mass is a Catholic bigot.

What a dolt you and Churchillhave become once we yanked the white sheets off your heads and exposed you for the Neo-Nativist you really are... spread that uninformed hate of yours Nick while continuing to pledge you're a real "conservative".

What a dolt.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 7:07AM

Churchill pleads for intellectual honesty from all but his little, lonesome self.

Wow and now, not to be outdone in his earlier stupidity, Churchill the drive-by conservative troll (you got called that first, Churchill) elects to play more schoolyard bully moves from that great Klan Primer: "Teachin' us sum libbrals how to be respectiating us and stuff".

BTW, the ploy of using fraudulent postings, posting fake comments like their mine or others and generally continuing a well worn pattern of lying and deceit only undercuts your points, Churchill --weak as they may be.

Glad to see you never, ever change your spots.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 7:53AM

Churchill offers: "... this feels like the 100th time I've posted these for you, what are you so scared of? Answer or shut up and move on."

Ummm, no, Churchill it's the 3rd time and each time I've answered you that I don't do the bidding of yapping, yipping junkyard dawgs who bark questions at people.

What part of that don't YOU understand, bigot boi and forum bully? Wow, you are collecting a lot of demerit points in this thread.

I know you're mad that we pulled that white sheet off your head, plus exposed you for a frauding poster using other names to project "support" for your hatefilled bigotry and dismissed your nonsense demands for being taken seriously when you don't even exercise the voting franchise --one of the most fundamental privileges of our Republic.

I get you're mad, drama boi. That's why you'd like to claim you've asked your fake questions "100 times" and sigh with great pleading and consternation. And toss in a little bully-boi time, to boot.

I'm beginning to think it's all about the drama and attention for a soc-con bigot bully-boi like you.

My further advice to you: shut off the computer, go upstairs and have Mommie heat up a can of your favorite Chefboyarde. Life always seems a bit better for juveniles when they're stuffing their mouths with something other than hate.

And follow through on my suggestion that you can start complaining about elections when you start voting. Until then, you share the burden of blame for helping to elect Obama --along with 4.1m of your breathren soc-con bigots who stayed home on Election Day.

Churchill| 2.27.09 @ 10:24AM

Mich-Matt

You're discredited due to your earlier false accusations of me trolling on multiple accounts - while at the same time exposing your total and complete lack of knowledge about the internet by the way - and now you return with your tired schtick and utter lack of any intellectual substance, repeating "white sheet wearing racist" a few hundred more times.

Get some new material.

Oh, and if you actually have any sort of reasoning ability I'll post these questions again for you to answer and you can demonstrate to everyone still here that you aren't as stupid as you seem.

Don't be scared:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Nick| 2.27.09 @ 11:15AM

Michigan-Matt,

I called you bigot because you called Purgatory "Pergie-land", or is that a term of endearment? Sounds like you don't believe this doctrine. You sound like a San Fran Nan Pelosi, "claim to be" a Catholic to me.

Your parish priest is doing a poor job, if you're representative of his flock. Or does he instruct you to brand everyone who you disagree with as racists or other calumnies?

I know you're to much of a coward to answer Churchills questions, but maybe you could answer this: Do you agree that abortion and contraception are all intrinsically evil, and that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered?

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 1:53PM

Nick (or Churchill) or whatever group of posters you now go by here, you're the guy who needs to hit the kneelers and pray for atonement --and I'm not sure your hatred and bigotry will get you past Pergie-land, "Nick". When you and your pseudo-poster pals hang up the little schoolyard games of mulitple postings under fake names, I'll take the request for intellectual honesty in earnest.

'til then, though, you're just another voice in the usual yipping, yappin' junkyard dawg of the Churchill litter. In our neighborhood, we keep dogs on short leashes; sort of what the GOP needs to do with soc-cons right now.

The short leash.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 1:57PM

Churchill or Nick deposits: "I know you're to (sic)much of a coward to answer Churchills (sic)questions..."

Now there's the perfect example of a 3rd grader's mental midget trying to practice reverse psychology on his intellectual superior.

BZZZZZZZT. Wrong tack, pseudo-poster pal but funny as hell. Churchill/Nick/Viki/Michigan-Matty you are a crack up... but still see someone about those multiple personalities, ok?

Nick| 2.27.09 @ 3:14PM

Michigan-Matt,

Now you're an expert in grammar, or is someone helping you press the keys? Why are you so convinced I'm posting under different names? Tinfoil hat on too tight?

So I'll take your silence/cowardice in not aswering as big, fat NO. You don't agree with the Church's teaching on abortion, contraception, and homosexuality; do you mister daily Communicant? Which explains your lack of charity towards others on this site.

Dave Lincoln| 2.27.09 @ 3:30PM

Churchill and Nick. give it up - some people just can't be reached. I tried to bring up a valid point about the war on drugs a while ago. This Commie from Michigan cannot answer you because you cannot even comprehend your questions (Churchill).

People from the government schools should not be trying to post intelligent comments. It is beyond their abilities.

Dave Lincoln| 2.27.09 @ 3:31PM

oops, I mean "because HE cannot even comprehend your questons."

carry on.

Dave Lincoln| 2.27.09 @ 4:05PM

Oh, and to the author, Mr. Nadler, I hope you just wrote this piece because you were bored and/or needed the cash (who doesn't, in these trying, socialist times we live in?) Can't blame ya.

However, if you truly believe your what you wrote, I'm gonna have to resort to a little name-calling myself, albeit, having been influenced by a flurry of posters. You, sir, are not only an idiot; you are the King of the Idiots. Mr. Tyrell, did you see what this idiot Nadler wrote? Emmett, where are you? Get this idiot off of your nominally-conservative publication, prontomundo! Emmitt, get over here, dammit!

Michigan--Matt| 2.27.09 @ 4:31PM

I'm just another loser fallen-away Catholic pissed off at my few prospects in life and my lousy future. Mommy's basement is getting cramped and Obama's totally screwed the economy, what am I to do?

Dave Lincoln| 2.27.09 @ 4:37PM

Don't worry so much, Matt, Obama's got some hope and change coming for you. You are to report to your government-assigned doctor right away, Dr. Al Ben Dova.

Michigan--Matt| 2.27.09 @ 6:55PM

Sounds like the doc's right up my alley. Thanks for the tip, dude.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 6:59PM

Nick or Dave or Churchill or whatever added names you come up with this thread... you offered: "So I'll take your silence/cowardice in not aswering as big, fat NO".

Well, there you again.

Just like the other yapping, yipping junkyard dawg barking out questions and demanding answers... you prove my point about fake posters using multiple names but not being too sharp a tool to appreciate their "tactics" give away their commonality.

I get that you'd like to bark questions and demand answers in that classic three-snap manner, but I've already dismissed you by saying you need to take some steps toward consturctive, honest dialogue before I'll submit to your grade schoolish bullying.

It really is that simple, bigot boi 2.

No cowards in my camp --you have that little patch of inferiority all to your lonesome self.

Nick| 2.27.09 @ 7:23PM

Michigan-Matt,

All you have shown on this thread is how to insult people instead of debate them. And that you're delusional.

Churchill| 2.27.09 @ 7:32PM

"Just like the other yapping, yipping junkyard dawg barking out questions and demanding answers... you prove my point about fake posters using multiple names but not being too sharp a tool to appreciate their "tactics" give away their commonality."

Know anything about the internet? Think the site admins could easily find out if I or anyone else was posting (regardless of name used) from the same IP address?

Would I drive to Idaho to reply to one of our idiotic posts from Michigan?

Unlikely.

You're an idiot. You've underlined it over and over by making foolish, tech-ignorant accusations and repeating moronic charges of racism over and over - and by avoiding some simple questions I posed to you.

Go away and let the smart people discuss public policy - it's beyond the limits of your IQ.

Don't be scared:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Churchill| 2.27.09 @ 7:36PM

"Nick (or Churchill) or whatever group of posters you now go by here, you're the guy who needs to hit the kneelers and pray for atonement"

It occurs to me that even if someone were to ask you a question from six different aliases, you are still intellectually incapable of answering it anyway - so why whine about it?

You have no intellectual honesty. You aren't quite a troll, but you aren't someone with a valid point of view, willing to argue without spewing the word "racist" over and over.

Why do you still hang out in this thread? If you can't summon up the intellectual effort to examine those questions and answer them truthfully, you're worthless.

Lets start a real debate (assuming you aren't scared)

Don't be scared:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Massa2shits--Barney| 2.27.09 @ 7:49PM

Michigan--Matt is my hero.

Michigan-Matt| 2.27.09 @ 10:26PM

Churchill contends, with a str8 bigot face, no less: "It occurs to me that even if someone were to ask you a question from six different aliases, you are still intellectually incapable of answering it anyway - so why whine about it?"

Well, there ya go trailer trash bigot boi and Neo-Nativist hatemonger, you finally got it.

You can play all the bully games. Play all the fraudulent and fake postings games. You can yap and yip like a junkyard dawg. You can bark questions and demand answers and direct the obedience of all to the Great One (please see your Mom's bathroom mirror for an image of the Great One)... but at the end of the day you still don't see yourself, your hatred, your incapacity to even act in the basic civil practice of voting as being intellectually dishonest? All you want is to foam, spit and vent your bigotry on a Party that ought to reject it full force.

Right. And then you want to tell the rest of the world that McCain was wrong, the GOP is wrong, the answer for the Party is to act more like you, export hatred at every turn toward every wanna-be American who isn't a fellow white angry male cynic... turn farther to a gospel of hate and intolerance --and for you and your ilk, it's not just toward Latino, not just toward Hispanic... but toward gays, blacks, the disabled, the poor, the disenfranchised too. Immigration reform bashing was nothing but a cover for your hatred and bigotry.

Sorry, bubba with the white sheets on, but it just don't sell anymore.

The GOP doesn't need to examine its life and soul and find it wanting of not enough hatred and bile in its positions and public policy. The GOP needs to turn away from the soc-con corruption that led us to Delay, Cunningham and the others who ruined the Party.

Churchill or Nick or Wisconsin Willy or whatever multiple names you're posting under in this thread and elsewhere... the point is your are a fraud and your continued intellectual dishonesty and the disloyalty to the Party (clearly exhibited here) puts you outside the realm of even legitimate bitching about the Party or its path or its Presidential selection process.

So rather than keep yipping, yapping and barking questions... or acting like some cry-baby whose advice hasn't been heeded by the Party leadership... get some balls and admit that your strategy places you outside the pale of political discourse. The politics of hate and self-interest drove and fueled the soc-cons inside the Party; not anymore.

It's really very simple. And for knuckle-draggers like you, that simplicity is sometimes the hardest thing to grasp. Over a 100+ postings in this forum and you're just now getting it.

Dense wouldn't even begin to capture your skill set. What a pathetic loser.

Obama Rules| 2.27.09 @ 10:38PM

Wisconsin Willy really tickled your fancy, Mich-Mutt. Probably because you wished with all your heart that you had one. You're also a ball less wonder, little liberal puke.

Michigan-Matt| 2.28.09 @ 9:29AM

I'd have expected, at some point, Nick-Churchill-Wisconsin Willy-Viki-MichiganMatty-ObamaRules or whatever fake name you'll fradulently post under in these threads, that your baseless hatred toward those of us who pull the white sheets off your bigoted, narrow-minded head would fade with time and consistent opposition. We've shown you the door out of the GOP and, frankly, we don't want and we don't NEED you anymore.

See, my hunch is that your ilk doesn't have the stomach for a real debate and the hard labor needed to win elections. All that you disloyal, sit-on-the-couch ElectionDay cry babies care about is being able to bitch... bitch about anything... like in this thread with Churchill --bitching about not being able to be an out & proud bigot.

At the end of the day, sitting in your Mom's basement, you're just a bunch of angry white guys and cynics who want to be heard complaining.

Go cry in your beer. Your 15 minutes of fame are over.

Churchill| 2.28.09 @ 9:41AM

"Well, there ya go trailer trash bigot boi and Neo-Nativist hatemonger, you finally got it. "

This is the limit of your intellectual argumentation skill.

Moronic name calling.

How about starting a legitimate debate?

Let's start here:

Don't be scared:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Churchill| 2.28.09 @ 9:45AM

Mich-Matt

Yeah, we get it....

Everyone that wants to see immigration law enforced, including all of those off-white democrat voters that opposed the amnesty are all NEO-NATIVIST BIGOTS and WHITE SHEET WEARING KLANNERS!

INTERNET RAAAAGE!

Don't be scared to engage in legitimate debate. It's pretty obvious you are due to your not answering questions I've been posting for 3 days now.

Why not take a stab at lowering the volume a bit and acting like an adult?

Or you can always type RACIST in a few oft-used and repeated variations which you evidently consider an "arguement."

Most that would read this thread would see your ad-hominem attacks for what they are - someone without the ability to debate copy and pasting the same insults over and over in a bald-faced attempt at exposing his aforementioned lack of debating skills.

Does your priest condone your debating style?

Here you go:

Don't be scared:

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Churchill| 2.28.09 @ 9:49AM

Mich-Matt

See any contradiction in this?

"turn farther to a gospel of hate and intolerance "

Sounds like your "debating style" to me.

Neo-nativist bigot? Trailer trash? Bullying junkyard dog?

Hypocrisy of course, but if you had any ability to reason this stuff out that would have been obvious.

Dial down the volume a bit, take some midol and return to the thread when you can be rational.

Nick| 2.28.09 @ 1:24PM

Michigan-Matt,

If Michael Boomberg turns back into a "Republican" and buys the nomination in '12, will you support him?

Michigan-Mutt| 2.28.09 @ 1:54PM

Hell no, I'd never vote for a Jew!

Willy| 2.28.09 @ 2:17PM

Trust us, Mutt, no 'baseless' hatred for you here.

Nick| 2.28.09 @ 5:45PM

Hey Matt,

Are you watching Rush address the nation?
You could learn something.

Michigan-Mutt| 2.28.09 @ 6:51PM

Rush be da man!

Michigan-Matt| 2.28.09 @ 7:24PM

Churchill offers the advice, not as tongue in cheek tho': "but if you had any ability to reason this stuff out that would have been obvious."

Sorry to deflate your spare tire sized ego, bigot boi. Rational isn't a problem for me. I know how keenly important GOP outeach to the Hispanic community is... you don't. I understand politics is about winning elections, not about "purity tests to winnow out the brown or black skinned devils". I vote on Election Day -you can't even do that basic task but think your still have the right to bitch endlessly and peddle that special corrosive hate of yours. I'm loyal to the Party I support. You can't belong to anything because it'd mean getting outside your self and working toward a constructive end... instead of being a keyboard cynic down in Mommie's basement.

And frankly, Obama's election owes more to you sitting on the couch in front of the TV than it does in McCain's Campaign. 4.1m soc-con voters stayed home because McCain was farRight enough for them... because he was soft on "treating them brownies the way they deserve".

I know, rational just like Karl Rove, that the GOP can't win by baiting Hispanics and Latino voters with "you're probably an illegal and you don't belong here". And we really can't win elections when we let you bigots rule the roost and spread your hate unchecked.

I know, like pollster Bob Teeter, that the GOP needs that growing Hispanic base far more than it needs the angry white cynic bigot vote... which, thankfully, is shrinking in size as you guys finally take your one pony racist show and head to the margins of society... or the Libertarian Party.

I'm not the irrational hatemonger with the white sheet on my head and "Stop Immigration Reform Now" printed on it --you are.

Rational isn't hard for me. Reality is real hard for you, though.

And we can add to your reality-challenged nature, dishonesty in the fraud of using multiple posters to appear others support your anti-American rhetoric. When it really is all about you, alone, forgotten in the basement, resigned to spreading that special gospel of hate called Neo-Nativism.

And we can add to dishonest and unrealistic and bigoted and bitterly cyncial the fifth item... a certified troll.

Wow, that's a lot for your little skinny shoulders, bigot boi. Next time you think you can debate an issue... help us all, stop and don't try it. Or do it and be sure to inform the forum that a) you aren't really a conservative... just a bigot; b) you don't vote GOP in elections... in fact, you don't vote; and c) you're still steamed that America went off the Gold Standard, turned over the Canal and no one has exposed the lies in Area 51. Bigots and Neo-Nativists are almost always conspiracy freaks, too. I bet you have a box of clippings on the Grassy Knoll theory, don't you bigot boi?

BTW, the only hypocrisy on the thread comes from you in attesting you didn't vote for McCain, don't support the GOP but think you're entitled to endlessly bitch about both and demand the Party listen to you or else.

Hypocrite and bully to add to your troll label, dishonesty, unrealistic, cynical and bigoted. Gheesh, you are quite a model citizen and commenter, no?

Nick| 2.28.09 @ 10:41PM

Michigan Matt,

Talk about a grassy knoll theory! There can't possibly be 4 or 5 or 6 different people in the world that disagree with you, Matt, oh no. No, it has to be just one guy who wants it to look like 6.

Please get back on your lithium before you hurt yourself or others.

Interloper| 2.28.09 @ 11:08PM

Mutt, you need to get a life. Go join the demoncrats because there's no future for you in the republican party. We Social Conservatives own the republican party, boi toi, so get used to it. Get out, you're not welcome and we won't miss you. No repub would ever be as big an A-Hole as you anyway; you're a libturd, stop lying.

Churchill| 3.1.09 @ 11:34AM

Guess we have an answer then to the question to Mich-Matt on whether he would feel compelled to vote for Barney Frank should he ever run for POTUS as the GOP candidate, and that would be yes.

You're stupid and irrational.

You fail to address the fact that there were just as many democrats and independent voters opposing the amnesty as republicans.

You fail to explain how voting for liberal candidates with the GOP tag furthers the cause of conservatism.

You are spectacularly successful at blasting straw men with a flame thrower though as here:

"I know, rational just like Karl Rove, that the GOP can't win by baiting Hispanics and Latino voters with "you're probably an illegal and you don't belong here"

Here's a helpful link for you to (hopefully) understand logical fallacies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Your entire schtick is endlessly repeating "bigot boi" and vigorously torching various straw men - and of course avoiding answering the most BASIC logical question of all:

"Why am I a bigot for wanting to see illegal immigration laws enforces - when these laws apply to any/all races/nationalities?"

Take a stab at that one troll - or just keep returning to burn more straw men.

I originally thought you were just trolling, but it seems to be more obvious that you are simply unable to form a coherent argument and really can't see the massive irrationality of your own posts.

Try to take up needlepoint or something and leave political philosophy to the smart(er) set.

Oh, and for the 1000th time, you need to get off the GOP kool-aid.

You don't work for the RNC or for any GOP Pol, so therefore you are a private citizen NOT a "republican" and therefore as an independent voter you can use that thing I like to call "rationality" to determine if the self annointed "conservative" party actually lives up to their rhetoric, and are worthy of support.

You're the type of idiot that believes car salesmen too right? I know you're type.

Mich-Matt: "THE GOP IS THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY AND THEREFORE ANYTHING THEY DO IS "CONSERVATIVE" EVEN UP TO AND INCLUDING MASSIVE SPENDING INCREASES AND ADVOCATING OPEN BORDERS IMMIGRATION POLICIES."

You're smart. No, really I think you really are.

Churchill| 3.1.09 @ 12:08PM

MICH-MATT: "I know how keenly important GOP outeach to the Hispanic community is"

Supporting lawless open borders policies and perpetual follow-on periodic amnesties doesn't win the support of hispanic voters and this was wonderfully proven by amnesty poster-grandpa McCain

"67 percent of Hispanic voters rejected McCain. Only 31 percent voted for him"

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29615

MICH-MATT: "I understand politics is about winning elections, not about "purity tests to winnow out the brown or black skinned devils"

Straw man argument: "To argue against a straw man is to interpret someone's position in an unfairly weak way, and so argue against a position that nobody holds, or is likely to hold."

MICH-MATT: "I vote on Election Day -you can't even do that basic task but think your still have the right to bitch endlessly and peddle that special corrosive hate of yours. "

Did you get an "I Voted" sticker? Congratulations. You thought McCain was worthy of support so therefore you voted. Why any self described conservative would vote for McCain is open to debate, but it's understandable in your case as you conflate being a conservative with being a republican (however laughably stupid the rest of us think that is but more power to you.)

MICH-MATT: "I know, rational just like Karl Rove, that the GOP can't win by baiting Hispanics and Latino voters with "you're probably an illegal and you don't belong here". And we really can't win elections when we let you bigots rule the roost and spread your hate unchecked. "

Another straw man argument. You still fail to explain how the desire to see laws related to illegal immigration enforced makes anyone black, white or brown a "bigot." Guess it makes sense that you haven't answered it, because its impossible to make that statement with a straight face.

MICH-MATT: "I know, like pollster Bob Teeter, that the GOP needs that growing Hispanic base far more than it needs the angry white cynic bigot vote... which, thankfully, is shrinking in size as you guys finally take your one pony racist show and head to the margins of society... or the Libertarian Party. "

That "growing hispanic vote" went to Obama by a huge margin. This is after McCain became THE poster-grandpa for lawless open borders and follow on amnesties. Let's hear your expert analysis on that one. Oh, and before you start railing on the republican voters that inundated their representatives offices with phone calls, emails and letters lets hear you acknowledge the great many democrats and independents that opposed (and will continue to oppose) amnesty for illegals.

MICH-MATT: "And we can add to your reality-challenged nature, dishonesty in the fraud of using multiple posters to appear others support your anti-American rhetoric. When it really is all about you, alone, forgotten in the basement, resigned to spreading that special gospel of hate called Neo-Nativism. "

Tired. Old. Wasn't smart the first 100 times you spewed "neo-nativism" and it gets dumber each follow-on. Keep torching those straw men if it makes you feel like you can actually formulate an intelligent pro open borders argument though.

MICH-MATT: "a) you aren't really a conservative... just a bigot; b) you don't vote GOP in elections"

Your stupidity is starting to annoy me now. Let me say this in caps you ignorant mongoloid so it might sink in:

CONSERVATIVE =/= REPUBLICAN PARTY

Get it? Voting for a conservative candidate isn't the same as voting for a republican candidate. You have to use your intellectual abilities (good luck on that one) and your research on the individual candidate to determine of that GOP tool is really a CONSERVATIVE or just another big government liberal spewing the "right" rhetoric to the mouth breathers like you who will lap it up and take it as the gospel truth every single time based on his GOP name tag.

Idiot.

I'm done with you, you fail to answer any of the most basic logic check questions and can only formulate foaming-at-the-mouth, straw man torching idiocy in response to any of my posts.

Learn to think, take some midol and come back to argue like an intelligent (unlikely) person or shut up and moveon.org somewhere else.

Here's the questions COWARD.

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

Michigan-Matt| 3.1.09 @ 2:32PM

Let's see, yet another thread of postings from our resident troll of multiple names... and it's the same set of posters (or imposters) with the same grammar and syntax... Nick cum Churchill cum Interloper cum... let's see, it could be Wisconsin Willy next or Viki next or Michigan-Matty (eww, the troll is so clever, yes he is)...

I guess we'll have to wait and see. Bully, troll, fraud, disloyal whining cynical anti-social cry baby and that's just from this thread. Stunning and pathetic at the same time.

Churchill| 3.1.09 @ 3:01PM

MICH-MATT: "Blah blah blah blah multiple posts blah blah blah neo-nativist bigot-boi blah."

Answer the questions or get out of here.

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

You have no credibility. You have no idea how the internet works and you have no ability to argue a point using facts and logic.

What are you bringing to this thread again?

Nothing.

Does it shock you to find multiple people here believing you're an idiot? It doesn't shock me. Oh, and a site admin can verify which IP address they're posting from so shut up about that until you learn basic TCP/IP concepts.

Fool.

Shut up and go away or find the testosterone and 40 more IQ points to answer the simple questions being directed to you.

Or just keep on spewing your juvenile accusations at me and continue looking like a fool.

Don't forget to burn a few straw men in your next post too.

Nick| 3.1.09 @ 4:20PM

Churchill,

It has become a waste of time trying to argue with Michigan Matt. He's obviously out of it and is convinced this is the RNC's site, not a site where conservative thoughts are presented and debated. The liberals who come here being the exception.

But let him rant. Maybe his ravings act like a pressure relief valve, keeping him from going postal and taking out his family. In fact, I'm going to start calling Matty-boy Cliff Clavin.

Prophet| 3.1.09 @ 5:03PM

I try to persuade conservatives that's it's pointless to attempt to debate liberal trolls on AmSpec: They are here to sew dissension among us and are on some liberal's payroll. Axelrod was known for his 'astroturfing', which was a disinformation campaign used against Hillary during the Demo Primary. Her supporters blogged about it constantly. These trolls are not acting in good faith, can't you see ? Read the garbage from Mutt, Scott., Interloper, Jeremiah, etc.: All vicious accusations, lies and slander, it's all the same, and they know it's all baloney. Ridicule is the best reply: I won't dignify the losers' BS with answers. Look how pissed the little weenie, Mutt, becomes when he's insulted. Thin-skinned little tool, ain't he? LOL

Churchill| 3.1.09 @ 5:24PM

I can't help counter-trolling trolls.

It's in my nature.

As for Mich-Matt being a planted, paid troll...

With the amount of money sloshing around the left end of the political spectrum, I'm sure they could afford to purchase at least semi-rational argumentation skills and someone with an IQ above 40.

So (obviously) I think Mich-Matt is genuine.

Brian| 3.1.09 @ 7:15PM

No offense, but I think Michigan Matt has pegged you accurately as either racists or bigots and certainly as hatemongers.

From the comments, the only troll is Churchill-Nick-Interloper and so forth. You might not like it that Michigan Matt is calling a spade a spade but it doesn't change the truth of your natures and characters.

What I don't get is why he thinks it's worthy to stand up to bigots, bullies, racists and trolls?

Jeremiah| 3.1.09 @ 7:31PM

Michigan-Mutt/Brian: Look, a troll twofer! Loser.

Brian| 3.1.09 @ 7:36PM

He's paid, Churchill, and you're wasting your time. Maybe you've got time to burn, but what was the point of the 'dialogue' between you two? What did it solve? How can you argue against a lie? It's the Alinsky strategy; all the Chicago political thugs use it (All the Demo party are Chicago thugs now--ACORN is national).

Loper| 3.2.09 @ 2:22AM

I agree, Brian, Mutt should stand up to you. No offense.

Michigan-Matt| 3.3.09 @ 7:44AM

Brian, it's a truism that when every one pulls a white sheet of bigotry off some knee jerk knuckle dragging soc-con, the first words are "It's everyone else's fault" because, to them, they didn't do anything but be themselves.

And then the taunts begin. It might be that your a RINO. Or a pinko. Or a Marxist.

Then it devolves to masculinity taunts about being a wimp or gay, etc.

And it always ends in the same exact place, the bigots put back on their white sheets and go hell-raising on some illegals or blacks or gay-bashing or Jew-baiting or (you fill in the blank).

Nick cum Churchill cum Interloper cum Viki cum Michiganmatty cum fake-Jeremiah cum (you fill in the blank, sigh, again) do their usual dance and think it oooh so clever.

Tiny actions by tiny minds gets them nailed.

But thanks for the joining in and not letting the bigots go without account.

Nick| 3.3.09 @ 8:54AM

Wow, deja vu! I just read this same garbage.

Oh no, it's just Cliff Clavin to lazy to write individual posts. Just copy and spam. Better than going postal, though. You keep it up Cliff, it might be good therapy!

Brian da Bruin| 3.3.09 @ 2:08PM

Nick, I think you missed the key point addressed to you in Michigan Matt's response:

>>Tiny actions by tiny minds gets them nailed

CH| 3.3.09 @ 6:19PM

Libturds. You need girlfriends, losers.

Michigan-Matt| 3.4.09 @ 7:36AM

CH (could that be one of Nick's infamous fake-posters like ChurCHill?) calls anyone who disagrees with him (or is it "them"?) libturds.

Guess what, CH-Nick-Churchill-Viki-WisconsinWilly et al, the playground level cut down doesn't work with adults.

You and Nick have to get a new act, dude. Seriously lame.

Willy CH Pepe| 3.4.09 @ 8:34PM

Thanks for the advice, stupid libturd. But you still need a girlfriend, loser. Of course you're probably hot for boys, boi-toi. Sissy libturd.

Churchill| 3.10.09 @ 4:01PM

Hey Mich-Matt!

Still trolling I see.

Here you go coward.

MICH-MATT: "Blah blah blah blah multiple posts blah blah blah neo-nativist bigot-boi blah."

Answer the questions or get out of here.

1. Do you not agree that the reason for a self described political conservative to cast a vote is to advance a politically conservative agenda - and not just to see someone from TEAM GOP employed?

2. Do you think that the GOP as a mirror image of the Democratic party is worth the support of conservatives?

3. Do you think everyone in America, black, white, and other that wants to see our immigration laws enforced are really all KKK members? Does the KKK even let in non-whites these days?

4. According to your line of reasoning, if Barney Frank were to switch parties and run as the GOP candidate for POTUS, I would be "selling out" conservatism by not voting for him - after all, he's the GOP nominee right? Is this correct? Why wouldn't YOU vote for Frank in this scenario?

You have no credibility. You have no idea how the internet works and you have no ability to argue a point using facts and logic.

What are you bringing to this thread again?

Nothing.

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