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The Spectacle Blog
As virtually everybody in America now knows, former Alaska governor Sarah Palin posted the following on her FaceBook page:
The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
Naturally, she was roundly reviled for these comments. One person quoted by the New York Times replied, “One problem: None of the bills emerging from various committees includes the kind of ‘death panel’ that Ms. Palin says would be rationing care.”
I guess that’s that, eh? Mrs. Palin should go back to shooting elk and stop irritating the New York Times.
Well, not so fast.
It’s true the bills don’t explicitly identify a “death panel,” but there is plenty that would lead to exactly that outcome. Some of it is already law, in fact.
First, Congress already enacted, as part of the stimulus package, $20 billion for Health Information Technology, or HIT. This is designed to get every doctor and every patient wired up to a national database of health information. Every disease, diagnosis, prescription, and treatment will be submitted to this national database and made accessible to researchers, payers, and law enforcement. This is not speculation; it’s the law.
Next, the stimulus package also appropriated money to create a “comparative effectiveness research” program. Its proponents claim this will only be “research” to determine what treatments work best for large populations, using the health information database to make their determinations.
This is based on Britain’s “NICE” (National Institute for Clinical Effectiveness) program. NICE determines the dollar value of a “quality adjusted life year” (QALY) and allows payment for drugs and treatments that are lower than that number and disallows those that cost more. NICE has already disallowed cancer drugs and treatments such as hip replacements for elderly people and stopped allowing injections of steroids for people with severe back pain.
Of course, just doing research doesn’t sound threatening. Research is good, isn’t it? We all love research.
This is where the current bills come in. To hold down the costs of Obama’s health care program, the administration has come up with a whole menu of activities—chronic disease management, pay-for-performance, wellness incentives, and so on.
I know, I know, the eyes glaze over at this kind of bureaucratic gobbledygook. Who really knows what any of it means? That’s why Sarah Palin is so dangerous. Her controversial statement cut through all the fog and made people sit up and take notice.
In fact, these are the kind of programs that take benign “comparative effectiveness research” and put some teeth into it. Suddenly it isn’t just research. Suddenly we are using that research to decide how much to pay doctors. That is the whole purpose of pay-for-performance (or P4P among policy wonks.)
Physicians will be paid more if they follow the guidelines established by the yet-to-be-named research group. (My suggestion for a name is Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission of the United States, or CERCUS.) The HIT will be able to alert the CERCUS as soon as any doctor tries to violate the P4P guidelines. Uh-oh! A warning will pop up on the doctor’s computer: YOU ARE TRYING TO VIOLATE THE GUIDELINES! EXPLAIN YOUSELF!!
Your doctor may be able to fill out all the paperwork to get an exception, and appeal any denial, but it will be an uphill slog. More likely, the doctor will go with the flow and accept the higher level of payment for being obedient.
That’s where Mrs. Palin comes in. She would like her son Trig to live. She will need to appeal the decision to … whom? Very likely a panel much like what she describes.
Only it won’t be called a Death Panel. It may be called the LIFETIME Panel: “Listening to Irritating Families Explain Their Insistence on a Medical Examination.”
Greg Scandlen is director of Consumers for Health Care Choices at The Heartland Institute.
View all comments (291) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by Greg Scandlen
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/08/13/palin-is-not-wrong
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Greg| 8.13.09 @ 9:42AM
I agree with Palin. What frustrates me most is the blind acceptance of what our government officials say by weak minded American citizens. I don't exactly know who/what to blame...there are so many factors that go into what American society has become today from what it was years ago. Patriotism is questioned; Ethical hard work is looked down upon. Is it the education system that has been so liberalized? Is it our family sturcture that has changed over the years? Is it the dimenishment of core values: God, Family, Country? The state of the American society today makes we wonder what it will be like when my daughter (3 months old) will be my age. I'm keeping up the good fight, trying to at least; I talk to friends/family/neighbors. My social group feels like I do. I wonder how many people realize what this country is really all about?
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 9:44AM
Mr Scandlen,
Perhaps facebook is not the best place to do research on health care reform bills working their way through Congress.
Just a thought.
In fact, no such "death panels" are proposed.
There IS a provision to fund counseling by DOCTORS on living wills. It is a VOLUNTARY measure that a person could OPT for. The counseling is done by that person's OWN chosen doctor.
The provision was put into the legislation by a REPUBLICAN.
Too bad there is not a provision to fund surgery that might remove your HEAD from your ASS.
Louis Tully| 8.13.09 @ 9:58AM
Leftist Reader, don't believe Palin? Listen to Dear Socialist Leader himself, from an interview earlier this year:
"THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
DAVID LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now."
Now of course, Dear Socialist Leader doesn't use the words "death panel," he calls them "independent groups" consisting of doctors scientists and ethicists. No mention of patients, families or rabbis/pastors/priests.
Sean| 8.13.09 @ 10:20AM
I have looked at some of these so called nonpartisan fact check sites on the web. One thing I have found is they will bend over backwards to clear a lefty. One example is a coauthor to a book does not necessarily endorse what is written in his book.
Rich Berger| 8.13.09 @ 10:57AM
Another important thing to keep in mind is that the law is only a starting point. Regulations and agencies will be needed to administer the law, and no one can be sure how they will rule. I think it is likely that nationalized health care will cost far more than estimated, costs will have to be contained and decisions about end of life care will be driven by the need to cut costs (unless you are politically connected.
I would like to ask Obama or any of his supporters: if it doesn't work, what is the exit strategy? I think I know the answer - there is none - we're SOL.
Basil Plumley| 8.13.09 @ 10:59AM
Dear Liberal Reader,
Perhaps you missed this part of the article:
It’s true the bills don’t explicitly identify a “death panel,” but there is plenty that would lead to exactly that outcome. Some of it is already law, in fact. .....
Perhaps, you had a difficult time understanding what the article said because ...... you had your head up your own ass.
I normally would tell someone to remove their cranium from their posterior.
However, in your case, from the body of your posts, I can tell you enjoy the view.
Tim| 8.13.09 @ 10:59AM
Liberal Raider:
Two months ago I spent some time in the hospital with sick elders. When the news turned to healthcare they all reacted right away, and they were all convinced that Obama wanted to pull the plug. Hysteria? They all knew some version of what he had said about his grandmother and they all took it personally.
Do they support government health insurance? Sure, they LOVE medicare.
This does not stop them from believing that once everyone is "in" they will be left out. On a sled. On the ice.
Health rationing is a reality in Europe and they know damn well that statistic about how the last year of life costs more than the proceeding 65 or 85.
You can blame Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh if you like but the biggest single hit this campaign took was when Obama did his grandma ramble.
Basil Plumley| 8.13.09 @ 11:02AM
@ Rich Berger
Correct!!
I have a bad feeling that when/if this gets passed the banners will say "Mission Accomplished".
Tim| 8.13.09 @ 11:03AM
Used to be: as an uninsured person you'd be terrified of getting sick with an illness you can't afford.
Soon to be: as an insured person you're terrified of getting sick with an illness the government can't afford.
ben| 8.13.09 @ 11:16AM
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 9:44AM
Perhaps facebook is not the best place to do research on health care reform bills working their way through Congress.
---------------------------------------------
Who ever said research was being done on Facebook? No one ever claimed Facebook as the source of research. The statement was made on Facebook, not researched on it. This is an obviously feeble attempt to discredit the statement.
---------------------------------
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 9:44AM
In fact, no such "death panels" are proposed.
---------------------------------
True. There is no specific panel for end of life care called for in any of the bills. There is however, a Comparative Effectiveness Research Panel that decides all approved medical practices and procedures, which includes end of life care.
-----------------------------
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 9:44AM
There IS a provision to fund counseling by DOCTORS on living wills. It is a VOLUNTARY measure that a person could OPT for. The counseling is done by that person's OWN chosen doctor.
-----------------------------
This is done by a person's OWN chosen doctor. However it is mandatory for every five years (more frequent if health deteriorates), and is to be instigated by the doctors NOT the patients. Doctors are also paid for these consultations providing the incentive for Doctors to instigate them.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 11:29AM
Ben,
No, it's not mandatory. The REPUBLICAN who suggested this provision was pretty clear: every five years the patient must be given the OPTION to have this counseling.
What about this is so difficult for you people to understand.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 11:32AM
Tim --
I'm sorry to aggrevate the ideological membranes that protect you from information.
Western European democracies ALL have longer life expectancy than the United States and ALL spend far less per capita on health care.
You cannot maintain that social medicine executes the elderly when they become too expensive. It's just not so.
I've BEEN to Europe. I KNOW people there. They would cut the throats of politicians in the streets before the exchanged their system for ours.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 11:59AM
On display in this entire debate is not "conservative" skepticism of or resistance to a government role in the health system.
Rather, it is an over idealization of government, neurotically covered up by loud declamations of how untrustworthy and inefficient it is.
"Conservatives" seem -- at some level -- to believe that government should be allowed to cure old age and death. Since government has failed to do this, "conservatives" respond like jilted lovers, that government was never worthy of love in the first place.
But government is not for these internal psychodramas; it is not a screen on which demented fantasies are projected. It cannot replace your wife or your family -- ironically a substitution "conservatives" are constantly attributing to government programs.
It is true. One day, you will die. I will die. Everyone will. Government cannot cure death.
This reality is what provokes conservatives to cry out that the government is constituting "death panels," for an inadequate solution is easily read as a problem.
In the end, NO REPUBLICAN has campaigned or will campaign against Medicare or Social Security or the VA or Medicaid.
The reason is that, by and large, these programs are HUGELY popular and HUGELY successful. If they weren't, those who ostensibly resent and loathe government would hotly contest them.
They don't, and they won't, because these programs actually work.
So too will a public option; so too will firmer regulation of private health insurance; so too will an insurance exchange.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 11:59AM
On display in this entire debate is not "conservative" skepticism of or resistance to a government role in the health system.
Rather, it is an over idealization of government, neurotically covered up by loud declamations of how untrustworthy and inefficient it is.
"Conservatives" seem -- at some level -- to believe that government should be allowed to cure old age and death. Since government has failed to do this, "conservatives" respond like jilted lovers, that government was never worthy of love in the first place.
But government is not for these internal psychodramas; it is not a screen on which demented fantasies are projected. It cannot replace your wife or your family -- ironically a substitution "conservatives" are constantly attributing to government programs.
It is true. One day, you will die. I will die. Everyone will. Government cannot cure death.
This reality is what provokes conservatives to cry out that the government is constituting "death panels," for an inadequate solution is easily read as a problem.
In the end, NO REPUBLICAN has campaigned or will campaign against Medicare or Social Security or the VA or Medicaid.
The reason is that, by and large, these programs are HUGELY popular and HUGELY successful. If they weren't, those who ostensibly resent and loathe government would hotly contest them.
They don't, and they won't, because these programs actually work.
So too will a public option; so too will firmer regulation of private health insurance; so too will an insurance exchange.
Ken (Old Texican)| 8.13.09 @ 12:24PM
Illiterate Liberal who cannot read.
One simple question: Why do you trust civil service bureaucrats more than you trust competitive busnesses subject to earning our business?
Answer that without dithering around, and I will get off your case on this issue.
Ken (Old Texican)| 8.13.09 @ 12:24PM
Illiterate Liberal who cannot read.
One simple question: Why do you trust civil service bureaucrats more than you trust competitive busnesses subject to earning our business?
Answer that without dithering around, and I will get off your case on this issue.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 12:29PM
There is no Death panel it is just a Scare Tactic by the Right
The reason is
The ones so against Universal health care for everyone Know that it is good and not bad like they claim
It will prove That the republican party is wrong in its stance and Universal health care will be good for American's
They Rightly fear that they will be proven to be a bunch of liars and idiots...........Sarah Palin is proof of how stupid and idiotic the republican Party has Become.
The last good Republican was Barry Goldwater. He is the one they need to shape themself after. Not Ronald Reagan ...........he has played a great part in not only ruining the Republican party but also is responsible for our current economic mess
The "Ignorant Barbarians" on Cons for palin and palins facebook page are further proof.
American needs to learn the new rules when it comes to Logic and Common Sense.
Rule number 1
If Rush, Beck, Sarah Hannity coulter, and their ilk are Against it then it is good for American's
Rule Number 2
If Rush, Beck, Sarah Hannity coulter, and their ilk are For it then it is Bad for American's
Rule number 3
Refer to rule number 1 if in doubt
Porkchop| 8.13.09 @ 12:31PM
Liberal Reader - Go Off Yourself Douschbag!
Janie (proud Texan)| 8.13.09 @ 12:32PM
One only has to listen carefully to what Obama says to understand death panels are exactly what he is referring to; end of life counseling is code for death panels. Come on liberals, you understand code words; you know, those words you're always accusing the conservatives of using.
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 12:37PM
Here is something for everyone to think about in this discussion. Who can really place a value on a human life "by the numbers"? I was considered terminal in the early 90's with cancer. My Doctor and I did not give up and here I am - 18 years later with a grown daughter and grandchildren. By the standards proposed in the Health reform bill, I would have died back then and missed some of the best years of my life. This is NOT a Democrat or Republican issue. It is an American issue that is stepping on our freedoms.
Jennifer Kim| 8.13.09 @ 12:40PM
Liberal Reader: Western European democracies ALL have longer life expectancy than the United States...
Me: Not when it comes to people who die of natural causes, Liberal.
When we leave out people who die in accidents or murders, Americans outlive people in every other Western country.
Admittedly, in the US we have relatively high rates of death by murder or accident. But that has nothing to do with nationalized healthcare or a lack of it.
When we consider people who die of natural causes -- and in every country, that includes most people -- the USA has the highest life expectancy in the Western world.
And our survival rates for all types of cancer easily beat every nationalized healthcare Utopia country out there.
DoubleL| 8.13.09 @ 12:41PM
The people who defend this socialized medicine are those who have not read the bill! Read the bill and then say something! Obama admitted that he hasn’t read the bill in its entirety. How can Obama (in good conscious) make his country change the current healthcare system and life as we know it when he doesn’t even know the details of what it is?
Justin Credible| 8.13.09 @ 12:42PM
Soylent Green is PEOPLE!@@!@@
ontheright| 8.13.09 @ 12:42PM
Hello? Has anyone Really Really read this bill? No? Neither have a good portion of the elected officials. Not sure Obama has. When elected officials will stand at Town Hall meetings with a slide show of all 1000 pages of the bill and it's attached rider(s), and will - without trepidation - go thru the bill, page by page (even ad nauseum), until EVERY attendee of said Town Hall meeting has asked every question they have, then maybe I'll support this. When elected representatives tell the media "are you kidding? You want me to read a 1000 page bill? I'd need weeks and a bunch of lawyers to decifer this", you know few have actually read it or understand it's far-reaching consequences. How can they vote for a bill just because Obama says they should?
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 12:42PM
Sharon
You totally miss what the bill is about on this Issue
It only gives the person the option if they "So Choose" of their own free will to make the decision to pull the plug.....you have Total Control of the issue.
You would not have died back then if this was in place then and u would still be with your Grandkids.
Marsha| 8.13.09 @ 12:43PM
In some places this is not hearsay - it is actually happening, below is an example...
oregon health plan: woman denied cancer drug but offered assisted suicide
The wonders of socialized medicine revealed in Oregon...
Barbara Wagner, who is covered through the state of Oregon's government health care plan, was denied an important cancer drug she requested and instead was offered a drug for assisted suicide. Below is an excerpt from the KATU.com article:
Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.
Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.
"I told them, I said, 'Who do you guys think you are?' You know, to say that you'll pay for my dying, but you won't pay to help me possibly live longer?' " Wagner said.
Teresa| 8.13.09 @ 12:43PM
Too bad "Liberal Reader" is so elite in their controlled response, that they are soooo much better than the rest of us. Plain speaking is absurd to people like this. They prefer speech that obfiscates, and politicians who tell them anything they want to hear. Plain truth, plain speaking...basic good communication. Sarah Palin knows how to deliver a strong, but simple message. Most politicians learn to dance with words...we are so used to this rich diet of "what we want to hear", that the simply presented truth is offensive and unpalatable. Liberal Reader...you are what we are frustrated with in basic America. Too politically correct to be of any earthly good.
Gabby Gail| 8.13.09 @ 12:43PM
You can bet your life "O" has read the bill and understands every part of what it means too!
sick and tired| 8.13.09 @ 12:44PM
For those that want a government run health care system so badly....move to Canada or Great Britain! Let the USA get back to her roots! Most of Washington DC people have forgotten all about our consitution.
Ditto| 8.13.09 @ 12:44PM
Liberal Reader what you seem to be unable to grasp is that it no longer matters whether it was a Republican or a Democrat proposed the legislation you obviously haven't read yet. Don't you get it yet? The same old party rhetoric is no longer relevant. The current sound-byte administration has pissed off both sides of the aisle and we've finally woken up to the fact that our Republic is being turned into EuroRedeaux by the fascists in Washington (blue and red). They keep pushing bills through on late Friday afternoons (see the so-called Livable Communities Act) and ramming trillion-dollar spending sprees down the throats of American citizens without understanding -- there is an entire nation of people who were never politically active before... and now are.
Because we DON'T WANT THEIR BRAND OF GOVERNMENT.
Period.
Tom| 8.13.09 @ 12:48PM
Those of you that think such things as death panels are not in the Bill really should read the Bill...Stop making comments without reading the Bill, because it really makes you look silly...it's really embarrassing for you !!!!!
Dave C| 8.13.09 @ 12:49PM
Liberal Reader.. May you be the first to get your pain pill in the rationing line. Go in peace.
Molly| 8.13.09 @ 12:51PM
The road to Hell is always paved with good intentions. UK and Canada's systems are failing. Both are close to bankruptcy, and YES they do too ration care. People are probably "healthier" because they don't want the system to interviene and believe they can take better care of themselves than a buearacracy. Also, what is it that the Europeans hate so much about our system? Last time I heard from a European or a Canadian they couldn't understand or fathom why the land of the free would allow such an imposition into their personal, individual, free lives? I say PERSONALIZE healthcare, don't governize it. Put it back in charge of ME, the individual. Reform our private insurance sector by making it MY choice of who I want to go with, see, and how I want to be treated. I will not allow some buearocrate telling me that I will either; recieve the treatment above somebody else who is terminally ill, or will not receive it because I'm too terminally ill. That is exactly where Ezekiel Emanuel stands, the very person who helped create HR 3200 and who will be in charge of it. Don't believe me? Here is the very article in which he co-wrote about how to "morally" ration healthcare.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60137-9/fulltext#article_upsell
You may have to sign up to read the full thing, I had to and I did. I read the whole article. Sounds logical, rational, however with him in charge of the "public option", this is how he will choose to ration goodness forbid we are in a state of "emergency." Wait, aren't we in one NOW?!
Im a Linda too| 8.13.09 @ 12:51PM
Tom Daschle, Obama's chief Health Care Adviser. You know, major lobbyist that was going to get another one of those "waivers" from Obama, to work in his administration...and was SUPPOSED to be Health and Humans Services secretary, stated and proposed these very things. In his book he writes.
Doctors have to join the federal community here in dolling out treatment so that it’s fair and equitable. “Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity,” Betsy McCaughey writes, “goes too far. Hospitals and doctors that are not ‘meaningful users’ of the new system will face penalties. ‘Meaningful user’ isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose ‘more stringent measures of meaningful use over time’ (511, 518, 540-541). What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the ‘tough’ decisions elected politicians won’t make. The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs.
“He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept ‘hopeless diagnoses’ and ‘forgo experimental treatments,’ and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.” Now, the page numbers that I’m giving you here refer to the PDF inversion of HR1EH, the stimulus bill, not Daschle’s book but the actual stimulus bill. Betsy McCaughey just read it and she’s reporting what’s in it. So Daschle says we need to become more like Europe. People need to accept catastrophic diagnosis and forget it. If you’re told it’s over, it’s over. We can’t keep spending money on people who want experimental treatments! We just can’t do this. Now, “Daschle says health-care reform ‘will not be pain free.’ Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.” You read that right.
Daschle says senior citizens “should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age,” instead of trying to have them treated. “
Two important points in his book.
1. “Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the ‘tough’ decisions elected politicians won’t make. The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs.
2.”Daschle says health-care reform ‘will not be pain free.’ Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.”
Of course, Obama can try to spin this, but we've already heard from him how health care insurance to pay for a broken hip on a person diagnosed with Cancer was silly.
Another point going missed. Now claiming the age of unproductive to society, 66? My, Obama wants to start cutting back health care and giving end of life council at age 66. 66? They now consider 66 old and not giving to society, when we are living to 78 84 100 105. I'm sure people like Robert Redford at 70 likes the idea of that. Or...of course, Kennedy himself. Uh yes, but his care is "protected".
But, here now 66 is old ... yet, not old enough to even be collecting on Social Security? hmmmmm Is this his answer to not pay Social Security benefits?
P.S.| 8.13.09 @ 12:54PM
You know what, "LIBERAL READER"...
You are just another example of utter disrespect, one of the biggest problems in America today. You might want to take your foul mouth and narrow minded ideas to another media; we are talking about serious stuff here. Grow up, there's more to life than just your opinions and rude remarks.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 12:54PM
There IS NO "BILL" to read, folks.
I know, I know. There I go with those pesky facts again.
A little civics lesson.
In this country, bills are written in the Congress and signed into law by the president. (Sometimes the president writes legislation and sends it to Congress, but then they rewrite it.)
Right now, Congress is writing legislation on health care reform.
There are several bills -- BILLS -- being considered by different committees.
When the committees approve the bills, they'll be brought together (and submitted -- in the House -- to a rules committee). Then a single bill will be presented each house; then those TWO bills will be reconciled in another committee. The single resulting bill will then be sent to the president for signature (or returned to the separate houses for revision).
Random912-R| 8.13.09 @ 12:55PM
Government run healthcare is not going to function well. Period. It may look fabulous on paper but I can tell you with certainty that it will be 1. underfunded, 2.understaffed, and worst of all 3. unreliable. Dont believe me? Do the research on any other "Government Run Institute" find one that is Nationwide that is successful and thriving. . .
I would not suggest getting into a peeing match with the "I know people in Europe so I can speak for them" speech. There is no way for us to prove or disprove that statement and I hardly doubt that your panel of "contacts" in Europe share any other view of the world but your own.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I saw nowhere above anyone saying we want the government to stop death from happening. That's a pretty wharped way to look at the other side of the argument there Lefty. What is being said is... we dont want some panel deciding if we get treatment and how much we get based on a nationwide statistic formulated by some committee.
As for your insistant referral to the idea being a Republican's idea... well whoop-de-doo. There is more that one RINO out there genius. So you cant throw the party card to try to justify your own agenda. Some Republicans make bad choices just like Some Democrats and Some Liberals and even Some Independants. My point is, regardless of where the bad idea came from... it's still a bad idea.
Anyhow I'm sure you have some hate ridden comment to say to me now about my observation. Probably something "wordy" . Just remember that some day you may need something life saving that just isnt in the budget. They may not say no.... but there could be a waiting list long enough to die on in the process. I'm not sure I'm ok with that.
Darlene | 8.13.09 @ 12:56PM
Democrats keep saying that seniors don't want the government to run healthcare, but government already runs Medicare and seniors don't want it taken away. Many seniors have paid into this system for 44 years. It was required. Now we are asking to have that money returned to us in the form of healthcare. It WAS our money. Only trouble the government spent it on other things instead of saving it for us . Now that they have spent our money irresponsibly, they want to change the rules. Give us back all the money we have paid into the system with the interest it SHOULD have earned - and trust me - the government would have NO PART in our healthcare now. In private industry, they would be in jail for fraud. And that would include most of congress on both sides of the aisle!
Christian Conservative| 8.13.09 @ 12:57PM
To "Liberal Reader" - It's amazing to me while reading through this thread how opinionated you are w/out seeming to know the real facts. I too know MANY Europeans who constantly speak against Socialistic-Government-run Health Care! Yes, SOME may have a longer life span, than your average American, but NOT because of Government-run Health care, but despite it. It's mostly because of a healthier, preservative-free, fresh diet they consume. Are you listening to all those Europeans who have to wait 6 months or longer to receive vital medical care, and even die while waiting!? Are you listening to all those who choose to come to America for their important, needed surgeries, etc?
You also state that "they" love Medicare. I know NO ONE who "loves" Medicare, but have to put up with it, AND IT IS A GOVERNMENT-RUN SYSTEM THAT IS GOING BANKRUPT! The Government can't even run Medicare! How are we supposed to trust them with something bigger, more costly, more invasive into our personal decisions and business! Are you the one facing reality, or are you determined to be right about something that is soooo wrong!?
Debbie Dingler| 8.13.09 @ 12:57PM
This kind of scrutiny has been imposed on hospitals for some time now. The federal payors have already been denying payment on hospital stays for diagnosis of Congestive Heart Failure, Acute Myocardial Infarction and Pneumonia that do not meet certain criteria for best practices. Unfortunately the hospitals do not have control on the treatment plans of the physicians on their staffs in all cases. It would be nice if the physician reimbursement would also be affected. The hospitals would get better cooperation from the physicians. We have all anticipated the private insurers to jump on the bandwagon of these programs. There is nothing objectionable in these "best practices", but they do not account for non compliance on the part of the patient and as far as I can tell, have made little impact on the patient outcomes. They have merely created a huge pile of paperwork that is required to prove compliance with these guidelines. I shudder to think what would happen if there were similar requirements for 1000's of diagnoses.
Kathy| 8.13.09 @ 12:57PM
I too have traveled to Europe--not everyone loves their health care. If they did and it was so wonderful, Europeans and Canadians and South Americans... would not be coming to the USA for treatment. Oh, and I know that there are some from the USA that travel to other countries for some treatments, so no need to go there. I know that what is stated is not always what will be practiced--the bottom line is money (or whatever may be used as money--in some Eastern European countries in times past, money has been in the form of coffee, tea, chocolates and cigarettes--too bad if you cannot afford to buy these items on the black market); we only know that we do not want to open a pandora's box we cannot close!!
either orr| 8.13.09 @ 12:59PM
I have come to one conclusion... Liberal Reader is neither a reader nor a liberal in the classic sense. LR is a statist drone.
Offended| 8.13.09 @ 1:01PM
Liberal Reader, why do you have to be so rude? Can't you make your point without the namecalling? I would listen to your arguments without prejudice if you were courteous. We can disagree without being mean.
Lin| 8.13.09 @ 1:03PM
The Republican who is said to have suggested the passage you all are arguing about has denied having any input in the bill at all. No Republicans have, just as AARP has not backed the proposals, contrary to what the President has said. Ditto is correct, it doesn't matter. We are not Europe and we don't want to be.
The death rate here is higher because of traffic deaths and military deaths, not cancer and other natural causes. People from all over the world come here for treatment. We do not ever go there. WHO is not really a good source of unbiased numbers!
Leila Crist| 8.13.09 @ 1:03PM
I think the major problem is one of "trust." We just can't trust the government and what they say. The President sounds so convincing, but I just don't believe him. He surrounds himself with too many questionable people with an idealogy different than mine. I guess they mean well, but it is not my way of thinking and I believe change is not always for the better. Socialism is not for America! Big Government, high taxes, a Godless society, a welfare state - all Liberal policies.
Garrett| 8.13.09 @ 1:04PM
People who say no "death panels" exist or will exist are all too naive. They already exist, they’re in place in HMO’s. SSI is no more than a death panel as far as I am concerned. For me my medical problems began at age 17, when a dr. told me not to bother trying to work that I should be put on SSI immediately. I ignored his advice and figured, I’d find a way to survive. I managed to hold down some jobs, some for as long as 9 months but the toll on me as hard. Finally at age 30, things ground to a complete halt. My Dr. had warned me of this. We all pay in to Social Security so if we have worked long enough and well enough we’ll be taken care of with SDI if we get disabled, and SSI if we can’t work long enough or well enough to get SDI. I had worked but not long enough to get SDI and so I had to apply for SSI, and to get public assistance while I wait on that. My insurance coverage has been cut back to the point my Dr. does not want to see me and will not run tests. I have hepatitis but he won’t say what form, lest it be a diagnosis and he be required to treat it, possibly with a liver transplant, which is too expensive and will cut out any profit he would have, from me as a patient. I never had the privilege of “normal health”, I was born with a deceased twin inside my chest and have been susceptible to respiratory infections my whole life, at age 30 other systems were possibly involved but it could be due to other things. No one will know, unless an autopsy is performed post mortem. I have tried to a lawyer to help so I could get on SSI and thereby obtain better medical coverage. Only SSI is not likely to be given unless you hire a lawyer, lawyers want $5,000 to take on a case, they are limited by law to 25% of what you get. The amount of pay/back pay is determined by how long you’re in a cycle for the SSI “process”. Once you apply the clock begins to tick, once denied you have a reconsideration, once that has been denied you can then sue, you have 60 days. Then all the money goes away and is never available again. From start to finished the process takes about 24 months, 24month x $550 a month benefit = $13,200 is what you’ll get if you win the suit. 25% of the $13,200 is $3,300 not enough for a lawyer. The person hearing the case has to use a set of numbers provided for them. Things such as age, are determining factors, as in life expectancy is 70 years and you’re 47. I was born into a family of 7, all are dead but 1 brother who lives in a rest home, half of his brain was destroyed by a stroke, he’s fed through tubes, at 47 I am the oldest living member of my family who has not had a massive stroke. I am a Native American, life expectancy for us is age 45. SSI is hoping I will die before they are required to pay any benefits, as has happened to the rest of my family. I have presented documents from friends, and family detailing my problems they have all been ignored, I have produced documentation from medical devices I have been prescribed, those have been ignored. I have been told the people might be lying to get me benefits and the devices could be faulty, or I could have discovered a way to tamper with them, doctors have told them my symptoms are in the parameters of my conditions, and that has been ignored as well. This is what each and every person in the USA will have to go through one day if you sign over your will to the government now. For me it would be poetic justice, but I’m pretty sure those who support the system will have a different system for them, much like the insurance those who deny me medical care have now.
Tony Ponceti| 8.13.09 @ 1:06PM
Some are so blind that they refuse to see. This president has always hated America, JUST READ HIS BOOKS. He is doping everything in his power to destroy every area of our economy and our social system. National Health Control is something that every liberal should fear much more than somebody listening in on your telephone call to a terrorist. Yet my liberal friend see no problem with the government knowing all of your health information and making decisions on your behalf and that of your loved one. How foolish to follow so blindly.
Glenna | 8.13.09 @ 1:08PM
It looks like some many people in this country wants a handful of government people deciding our future and for the generations to come. What a pity that we are taking away their freedoms before they can speak for themselves. This country was founded because people didn't want to be told what they could do and not do, when and how to do. It was call "Freedom" how soon we have forgotten. When people from other countries are say this is a stupid idea, it hasn't worked for them. What makes the leaders here think they can go down the same road and not fall in the same hole as they did. Wake up America, learn from others mistakes, don't destory this country by saying we can do it and make it work.
Talk about slavery, we will all be slaves to the federal gov, it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
So what will we all tell the generations coming up? Sorry we sold you out because we didn't want to stand up for your rights? We were confinced that the few people in Washington knew what was best for us? Lets have the people in Washington be the trial run for this, if it works for them then pass it on the people.
I am really interested to know who Obama would allow to make his medical decision for him. Is he really wanting someone in a office all the way across the country making the decision whether he is productive enough to continuing to live?
I think that he should have to live under the same mandate that he expects everyone else to live under. So how about it.
Do a trial run, let the people who want it sign up and stay there, but give everyone else the freedoms we are intitled to. We was given a brain as well as the people in Washington, but it seems they are the ones that has forgotten that.
Be Careful what we ask for, we just might get it.
HELLO| 8.13.09 @ 1:10PM
Jennifer Kim
Do you even research the bullshit you post?
The natural life expectancy of the US is 75.3 years, compared to:
Australia 76.8
Austria 75.3
Belgium 75.7
Canada 77.3
Denmark 75.1
France 76.6
Germany 75.4
Iceland 78.0
Italy 76.6
Japan 78.7
Netherlands 77.0
Norway 77.0
Sweden 77.7
Switzerland 77.6
United Kingdom 75.6
Lin| 8.13.09 @ 1:12PM
Thanks so much for the civics lesson. I don't believe you have informed a single person on this forum, my friend, but since you want to nit pick, let's stipulate to 111 HR 3200 shall be known as "The Bill" in these discussions. It is the most spoken of by Democrats an Republicans alike and we all know that when a bill is final none of us will have a chance to read it before it is voted on.
Eric Van Camp| 8.13.09 @ 1:13PM
I can't believe what I am reading. Is Barack Obama really going to split the country in 2 camps. I do believe that the republican camp is doing ANYTHING and I say explicitely ANYTHING to damage the Democratic camp with their eye on the next elections. This is so sad. Several parties are just throwing in some things they heard, or so...This is just sad for America, sad for the world, that even in times of perill people don't understand they have to unite and work together as opposed to working against eachother in order to understand one another and to work for a better common future. I understand this is not what politicians are doing nowadays!
LH| 8.13.09 @ 1:14PM
I know for a fact that the UK rations care. I also know that to have a simple tonsilectomy can take 6 months to 6 years. I also know that to get an appt. with your Dr. can take weeks and months. I lived there for numerous years, this is on the BBC, people complaining about the system. The politicians can say what they want, but the PEOPLE speak volums!!!
Tim| 8.13.09 @ 1:15PM
These sorts of debates are useless when those involved are so entrenched in their own ideology that no rational examination of the facts will convince them otherwise. These discussions also inevitably lead to name-calling and such, and are a waste of time. Liberals AND Conservatives.
Now, I don't claim any party. However, I am conservative in moral, managerial (smaller government), and fiscal aspects. I also try to look at issues objectively, and I make my own decisions and form my own opinions.
Ultimately, the health care reform being proposed is the absolute wrong way to accomplish it. The politicians always try to address symptoms and not causes. You have to start from the bottom to figure out the problems. To start with, medical lawsuits would have to be restricted, because people today are greedy and sue at the drop of a hat. This is a reason health care costs rise. Doctors are being charged out the wazoo for malpractice insurance. Now, look at how health care would be provided on a cash basis. A Band-Aid would cost a few cents instead of five dollars, a physical would cost thirty dollars, and so on. Then, add health INSURANCE plans to the mix (just like auto and home insurance). INSURANCE would be used for the unexpected large things, like surgery, broken limbs, hospitalization. After you meet the deductible, the insurance company covers the cost. Other things you would pay cash for. An INSURANCE plan would be what the average American would have. Additionally, you could chose a HEALTH CARE plan, which is what many insurance plans today masquerade as. A HEALTH CARE plan would be more expensive, and would not generally be something an individual would pay for, but would get through their employer.
This is just a brief, general idea of how health care reform SHOULD be handled. Leave government out of it, and run away quickly from the currently-proposed Obama-care!
Terry| 8.13.09 @ 1:15PM
As I read thru all of the comments. . .why can't the discussions take place without snide remarks, name calling etc. . . Nothing should be passed until the VOTING MEMBERS have actually read and been tested on ALL of the bill.
Those who are holding towne hall meetings, should do so only when they can answer all of the questions asked of them. I know we vote these folks into office. . this is where we need to start. Are they in office for us or for the $$, benefits and themselves?
We the people, should be able to vote and let Washington know, if and what kind of Health Care/Insurance Reform we want/need.
Why is this being shoved at/on us???
Young Conservative| 8.13.09 @ 1:17PM
I don't want to argue about the party lines. I work in healthcare and am aware that we need reform but I don't believe a bureaucratic-ran govt program is going to do that. Just because the government is promoting "reform" doesn't make it better than what we have now.
We need to see the whole issue as objectively as we can, but both sides are so stubborn. Liberal Reader-you are exactly what your name states-blinded by your democratic liberal beliefs. You believe everyone is an idiot but you and your other believers, but that's just narrow-minded. Republicans-we are turning into the "anti" machine. We can't resist just to resist. We need to educate ourselves and have something constructive to say. We need to love this country and love the people in it. We need to find the best solution for everyone, whether we be poor, rich, health, sick, old, unborn or disabled. This isn't about laws and politics-this is about PEOPLE.
Oregongirl| 8.13.09 @ 1:20PM
All this discussion about healthcare and healthcare reform, when what America really needs is a change in diet and a course in nutrition. MANY of the most common diseases can be traced back to our food sources. Fast food, genetically modified, preservatives, chemicals, the list goes on and on and gets scarier and scarier. Ask yourself how much the US Gov't subsidizes food production....corn, wheat, etc.
At the end of the day I don't want ANYONE to tell me how to manage my health or my illness. More Americans need to stop arguing about politics and get to the core issues that face our families, our communities and our nation.
Lin| 8.13.09 @ 1:21PM
Eric, this is not about feeling, this is about our way of life. We don't want more government in our lives. We want less. Many people who are not rising up were not prepared for the kind of change the President had in mind, though he certainly did tell us.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 1:21PM
@ Hello
Facts along with logic and common Sense are not the "New Republicans Strong points.
They have to distort and twist the truth and lie.
The Facts are that Universal health care is good For America and Americans
Free market in terms of Health care does not work hence why we need to change what we have now.
The so called Death panel is already in place but its put there by the insurance companies and Big pharma.
pmkuckhahn| 8.13.09 @ 1:23PM
Liberal Reader,
I cannot speak for all conservatives, but I don't know where these conservatives are who think that the government should be allowed (or expected) to cure old age and death. The basic conservative view is just the opposite. We neither expect nor desire the governement to do this. At best, the government should foster a climate in which the people can strive for this. At worst, the government should simple get out of the way of the people. (note: As a Christian, I believe that death will never be conquered by man on this side of heaven.)
Concerning your comment on Republicans campaining against Medicare, etc., you have a point. There is an element of self-preservation here. But if nothing else, it demonstrates the difficulty that exists in removing a benefit once you offer it.
(Here's an extreme example, but it illustrates the point.)
Imagine the government decided that since people weren't eating well enough, they would build giant kitchens in every city and provide 3 square meals for everyone. People would flock to it. Much like "Cash for Clunkers" the government would trump its success simply by it's utilization. Soon, many or most restaurants would close, as would supermarkets. Home builders would build new homes without kitchens. Old kitchens would be remodeled out of existence.
Someone might argue, you still have a choice, you are still free to eat what you choose. But do you really? Instead of a society where some, admittedly, cannot eat as well as they would like, but most are free to eat as well (or poorly) as they choose. (or not eat at all if they want) Instead, everyone except the very wealthy is forced to rely on the government for his food without any real choice. In addition, the government (even if they are republicans) have no real choice to remove the program. To do so would be to condmemn millions of kitchen-less, supermarket-less Americans to starvation. This is where we currently are with senior health care. This is what many Republicans are sensibly trying to ease away from when it comes to privatizing social security. This is exactly where we will be if the government offers its own form of health insurance. (even if it is "optional")
Actongue,
If liberals and conservatives are going to have any sort of dialogue, we have to learn to trust one another. Not that we trust one another's policies as the best ones or trust each others priorities, but that we at least trust that the other side thinks it is doing the right thing.
The statement that conservatives are against universal health care because it is good for America is absolutely ludicrous. We are against it because it will raise taxes, remove real competition, limit freedom of choice, lower the quality of health care to a least common denominator, and create more dependance on the government. All these are things I consider "bad" for America.
Porkchop,
Liberal Reader may be wrong, but don't lower yourself or the argument. It removes all credibility.
Biggcatt| 8.13.09 @ 1:25PM
Fact: medical care, like everything else in this world of value, is "scarce" -- there simply is not enough of it to supply everybody at the level we would all like to see everybody have in a perfect world.
So, how do we deal with that. Well, under the current system of [mostly] private health insurance coverage, decisions as to who gets what care are made on the basis of the INDIVIDUAL'S ability or willingness to pay -- either the premiums for a cadillac coverage plan, or the actual costs for something that is not covered by the private plan.
Under a purely government [i.e. taxpayer funded] system, those decisions will for the most part be made on the basis of what THE GOVERNMENT feels it can afford for various types of health care, taking into account the likely effectiveness of the care based on -- among other things -- a person's age and consequent life expectancy.
Under any kind of legislation that has a hope of passing the Congress, as I understand it, we would have a PUBLIC PLAN featuring a minimum level of care for everyone, mostly benefitting those who could otherwise afford no coverage at all -- and freedom for wealthier folks to supplement that coverage with private insurance to whatever extent they are willing or able to pay -- in other words, just about what we have now, for that group of people.
So why all the fuss?
I don't pretend to understand the politics of all this, but it does appear to me that the emotional reactions stem from the simple fact that very, very few people really want to die, all of us fear death to some extent at least, and anything that remotely smacks of a suggestion that the government might have an ability to influence the circumstances of our death, is anathema to most people. That to me is quite understandable -- but what saddens me is that so many politicians are so ready to play on those fears and whip them into a frenzy, to serve their own political ends. Mrs. Palin did exactly that, of course, with her "death panel" comment, but there are many, many others doing the same thing.
And it appears to be working. Health care [or health insurance] reform looks to be a completely lost cause now -- the victim of appeals to emotion at precisely the time when reasoned discourse is absolutely essential. The present system is on an unsustainable foundation, of course, and without major reform it is just a matter of time before it comes crashing down. And then what?
Solo| 8.13.09 @ 1:26PM
The entire United States Constitution- the document that establishes and describes the TOTAL and COMPLETE plan for organizing our Republic is stated on 6 pages.
SIX PAGES!
Since its ratification, how many pages of text, how many Court decisions, how much time, effort and even blood has been expended to determine what those 6 pages mean?
If you can form an entire nation on 6 pages, perhaps we should re-think any legislation that would require 1080 pages just to describe it- from the outset.
The bottom line is that the Federal government shouldn't be involved in this aspect of our society in the first place. No way...no how!
Read Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution which deals with enumerated powers of the Congress. Health care ain't in it!
This wasn't an oversight on behalf of the Framers. It was done deliberately. The entire point...the entire object.. of the establishment of our republic was to divest power away from a central authority. This wasn't done to protect "conservatives". It was done to protect everybody!
Be careful what you wish for, lefties. Because as surely as you believe that you can imprint YOUR own values on the nation by this tactic, others will one day use this tactic to imprint THEIR values on you!
Our nation is about personal freedom. That comes with a price...but...it has always been considered worth the price. Once lost, it will require blood and fire to get it back.
Be careful.
Solo| 8.13.09 @ 1:27PM
The entire United States Constitution- the document that establishes and describes the TOTAL and COMPLETE plan for organizing our Republic is stated on 6 pages.
SIX PAGES!
Since its ratification, how many pages of text, how many Court decisions, how much time, effort and even blood has been expended to determine what those 6 pages mean?
If you can form an entire nation on 6 pages, perhaps we should re-think any legislation that would require 1080 pages just to describe it- from the outset.
The bottom line is that the Federal government shouldn't be involved in this aspect of our society in the first place. No way...no how!
Read Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution which deals with enumerated powers of the Congress. Health care ain't in it!
This wasn't an oversight on behalf of the Framers. It was done deliberately. The entire point...the entire object.. of the establishment of our republic was to divest power away from a central authority. This wasn't done to protect "conservatives". It was done to protect everybody!
Be careful what you wish for, lefties. Because as surely as you believe that you can imprint YOUR own values on the nation by this tactic, others will one day use this tactic to imprint THEIR values on you!
Our nation is about personal freedom. That comes with a price...but...it has always been considered worth the price. Once lost, it will require blood and fire to get it back.
Be careful.
NOBAMA| 8.13.09 @ 1:28PM
Don't be too mean to LibReader/Jeremiah or he'll throw an F-Bomb at you: I speak from personal experience. Poor widdle LibReader/Jeremiah, you've failed Astroturfing 101; all you've done is pi$$ed off Conservatives with your snotty arrogance and foul language. Now go back under your slimy rock with Axelrod and Emanuel, parasite.
The Axelrod astroturf troll sounds more shrill every day--we must be doing something right! Keep it up.
Another Tim| 8.13.09 @ 1:29PM
Lib Raider:
You owe me an apology I did not:
Tim --
"You cannot maintain that social medicine executes the elderly when they become too expensive. It's just not so. "
What I said was that the seniors I have talked too are completely freaked out by Obama's "Grandma" comments- to the extent that although they support Medicare and should be a natural constituency, they are against it.
"I've BEEN to Europe. I KNOW people there. They would cut the throats of politicians in the streets before the exchanged their system for ours. "
So have I you condescending bastard. ;)
C4P| 8.13.09 @ 1:30PM
Solo--We must remain vigilant!
Old Cynic| 8.13.09 @ 1:30PM
They have killed our "trust". We simply do not trust our own government anymore!
The return to "trust" will require all new people and all new procedures with "verify" before buying built in!
Tobias002| 8.13.09 @ 1:30PM
If you want to do something about our health care, fix it first. Put a cap on what doctors, clinics, hospitals and pharmacies can charge. Put a cap on the amount you can sue a doctor for malpractice unless that malpractice results in a death.
Put a cap on how much insurance companies can charge on premiums and/or how often the premiums can be raised and then they can't go up anything higher then 2 percent say like every 5 to 10 years.
Fix Medicare/Medicaid. The government screwed it up, now fix it. Any illegals are to be removed from all assistance. No food stamps, to health assistance, no low income housing. Cut them off from everything until they become legal citizens. Anyone collecting full welfare benefits or just food stamps, must pass random drug tests and there will be at least 6 random drug tests per year. If there are any illegal drugs in their systems, no more food stamps or welfare benefits for life. NO second chances.
Those who are on assistance can be on it for 2 years only. In those 2 years, they are to obtain their GED if they don't have a diploma or GED, go to trade school and get a job. If they fail to do so in those 2 years, they will no longer receive any benefits. If they keep having babies because they think they can still remain on it past those 2 years, think again. It won't matter how many more kids you pop out before or after the 2 year mark.
Yes, you will be forced to get off your fat butt, move away from the XBOX, WII, and what ever game station you have and get a J O B.
For those without insurance, why not take a little more responsibilty and get a second job and buy your own. There is affordable insurance out there. You just have to be consumer savvy and shop around instead expecting the rest of us to take care of your bills. I have my own bills I have to worry about.
Would ya look at that? I just fixed our health care problem without putting the burden on the tax payers.
Tim| 8.13.09 @ 1:31PM
Actually, on second thought, the only people getting their throats cut on the street in Europe are film makers who criticize Islam. But I digress.
sickofit| 8.13.09 @ 1:31PM
I like the way you think, Darlene. It really is all about the money. Seriously, you think they care about our illnessness'?. I totally agree w. Palin and think it is hilarious how some people are so terrified of her. You go on Sarah, terrifying these highly educated (liberal grads)!!
Lin| 8.13.09 @ 1:31PM
Actongue, I see how well you are prepared to defend your position! Saying something doesn't make it so. Have you seen the seniors going to the town halls and quoting "the bill" to the congress people. The representatives don't have a clue what they are talking about, but the seniors have read the bill and they can use inductive and deductive reasoning. NICE is actually a death panel in GB, they just don't call it that. HR3200 contains provisions for a similar panel, and money has already been provided for it in previous legislation.
Richard McElroy| 8.13.09 @ 1:33PM
My heart and pryers go out to you Garrett.
What happen to all men are created equal, it just doesn't exist. I'm on SSD and went through allot to get there. I have Hep C, and the medication thats available doesn't work for me. They say I'll need a liver transplant soon, because it's turned into cirrhosis now, but if I don't get rid of the Hep C, they won't want to give me a new liver. I guess that put's me on the death list?
It took me a year to get on SSD, but in Calif. the lawyers are only allowed 15%, and only get payed after settling.
(I got only penny's because of Arnold)
But you hang in there, I don't know you but your a fellow human being , and my Love goes out to you.
Middle class conservative| 8.13.09 @ 1:37PM
Dear Liberal reader, can you really believe we would be against Universal government health insurance if we thought it would work? It is uncomprensible to me that people who would not trust President Bush with their information will now simply turn it over to the current administration. What about when Pres. Obama leaves office and a new administer (like Pres. Bush) comes in. Will you be happy with that administration making these decision? remember that the HR 3200 has everything under the control of the Executive office. Only the "Commissioner" needs to be approved by the Senate.
ExSr Life & Disability Ins Rep| 8.13.09 @ 1:39PM
Excuse me, don't you know private insurance is way ahead of you already? Ever hear of the MIB. It's a bureau that reports medical info for insurance companies to share. A doctor's wife actually informed me of it cause I could not process he application for reinstament of her insurance policy because her husband had not checked the box agreeing to let him information be access through the bureau...read your fine print...your health is already being profiled for profit...how do you think you get rated or declined?
Richard| 8.13.09 @ 1:40PM
Liberal reader You should go to Noinjury.com an read what Dr.Dave Janda has to say about what hide in the stimulus bill on nonhealthcare there Death Panel just like Sarah Palin said.No I didn't get my informaition from facebook I got it from the only place you can get the truth talk radio and Fox new
Rick| 8.13.09 @ 1:40PM
I had a very ill grandmother who died last November. Her husband (my grandfather) died more than 25 years ago from a heart attack on November 22, 1983. My grandmother had been told then that her health was not good and that she was not going to live while my grandfather was alive more than 25 years ago. In 1996, my grandmother had cancer in her cheekbone and had surgery that year. She also took radiation and chemo treatments and many thought she wouldn't make it long after this. The chemo and radiation deteriorated her cheek bones and gave her radiation poisoning. She lived many years with this condition and was on between twenty to thirty pills every day until last November. She was told by every doctor that she wouldn't live long every time she saw them, but she kept going to each specialist for the many things she had. She had the 5 worst types of an.rthritus including rheumatoid. She was in pain all the time until she took her pain medication. She was also known to have low blood pressure. Sometimes when she went to the doctors they would give her cumidin which lowers your blood pressure. Yes, they tried to lower her blood pressure even lower so that she would die quietly without them being accused of euphanasia which was not something my grandmother said she wanted. My mother would stop the doctors from giving her cumidin and this went on for around 5 years so that my grandmother would die when God wanted her, not when the doctors wanted to give her to God. She lived until November 22, 2008 which was the 25th anniversary of my grandfather's death. Now if you think this is coincidince, fine, but my mother knows that she was waiting until that time of my grandfather's anniversary of his death to die. She defied all doctors, pharmacists, and basically everyone that knew her. She lived so bravely and dealt with a ton of pain in the last 12 years of her life and more. She is a hero to all that knew her and her condition. Now Obama wants to tell people when they can die and that they shouldn't wait for God to say when it's time to die. I say never. I don't think I could live in the conditions my grandmother did as long as she did, but I also won't be told when to die. We must stop this immoral and wreckless bill from passing. It isn't right and will only cause more disasters. I thought people were beginning to live longer and more are going over 100 than they have any many decades, but now we want to limit life. Give me a break. If that is the case then let's stop all cancer research and many other diseases like parkinson's, alzheimers, and aids. Let's just let people die of disease at a young age. Is thirty, twenty, ten too young for you to let someone die? Wake up to what we are doing and what the Democrats want, and stop letting these snobs shut up the Republicans and others against their plan so that we don't create a health care state where only the fit live and the unfit are allowed or murdered in the name of euphanasia. This would be a tragedy and end democracy in the United States of America. God Bless my grandmother and all those living in an enormous amount of pain at the end of their lives.
Pingback| 8.13.09 @ 1:41PM
Palin puts another nail in her political coffin - "Death Panel" - Page 17 - Politica links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 1:41PM
Lin
It is not a death panel
IT is nothing more then making a living will and deciding on ones own free will if a person wants too end their life or continue on with it.
It is all right here
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:1:./temp/~c111InbOE1:e513253:
There is nothing about a Death panel nor has there ever been.
The doctor can not say pull the plug it is up to the individual and their family
Julie| 8.13.09 @ 1:44PM
Liberal Reader said, "I've BEEN to Europe. I KNOW people there. They would cut the throats of politicians in the streets before the exchanged their system for ours."
Really? Why don't you talk to my friend's mom from London who, when she was in her early 60s, had her her uterus literally fall partly outside her body. Their wonderful government-run health care system put her on a wait list and she didn't get treatment (surgery) for nearly a YEAR. They told her she'd just have to live like that and wait her turn.
I would recommend people stop name-calling, etc. and actually sit down and spend time READING the proposed legislation. It will require you to think, but I don't suppose thinking ever killed anyone.
Richard| 8.13.09 @ 1:48PM
Liberal reader You should go to Noinjury.com an read what Dr.Dave Janda has to say about what hide in the stimulus bill on nonhealthcare there Death Panel just like Sarah Palin said.No I didn't get my informaition from facebook I got it from the only place you can get the truth talk radio and Fox new
miriam| 8.13.09 @ 1:49PM
Wake--up We are the light of the world so shine the light sarah so we will wake up---- We are the sleeping giant who is beginning to awaken from the slumber we have been druged by ,because of the pleasures and cares of this world..WAKE-UP AND SEE that when the life of the unborn is thrown away the discard of the elderly and week is the next step--we are witness to the next step.WAKE-UP
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 1:50PM
@ pmkuckhahn
The Current system is the problem.
Free market in terms of Health Insurance does not work and is a large part of why we are in this mess.
You are right in that we need good civil discourse on both sides of the issue
Rush and the rest though are totally against any form of Universal Health Care.
My friend pays 108 dollars a month in Canada for herself and her two kids and is based on her income. She is very happy with it and has NEVER had any issues with getting seen for herself of her Children.
She works with Disable childred and Everything that Palin and Rush along with Beck and some of the others say is Absolutely False.
I am correct though in Rules of Thumb in regards to Palin Rush and the rest.
The problem is that the Republican party has lost its way since Reagan was President.
The True Republican that people need to look towards is Barry Goldwater he is what the Republican party is about.
Conservative Medical Worker| 8.13.09 @ 1:51PM
As a healthcare worker, I can tell you P4P is already being utilized by insurance companies and "begging" to treat our patients IS already a reality - especially in the area of rehabilitation. Most of healthcare is already being dictated by the Medicare system rules and the average person just does not know it. Many large insurance companies adhere to "CMS Guidelines" for reimbursements, allowed treatments, etc. Everyone DOES deserve healthcare, lets just be careful what we approve just to achieve this goal as it may come back to bite us if it is not carefully thought out.
Biggcatt| 8.13.09 @ 1:51PM
Rick, I am truly moved by the story of your grandmother's courage and will to live. Would you mind very much if I asked you:
1. Who paid for the various treatments, drugs, etc. she received during her last years?
2. Why do you believe that Obama would disapprove of your grandmother's tenacious struggle to hold onto life until God called her home in his time?
3. Perhaps even more importantly -- do you think that any kind of legislation the Congress might pass, would prevent others like your grandmother from pursuing the course she did? If you do believe that, I am really curious as to why you believe it.
JeffH| 8.13.09 @ 1:52PM
I'm an independent and I make an effort to see both sides of an issue before making a judgment call, but I just can't help speaking up.
It's amazing to me that modern liberals are:
1) bothering to read a conservative publication somehow thinking that their insulting posts will do anything but convince the regulars that they're nothing more than hate mongers (something they routinely accuse conservatives of being),
2) are so misinformed that they are completely unable to defend their position with facts backed up by objective references, and
3) can feel completely secure in citing personal opinion as a valid argument while holding conservatives to a higher standard.
If you're a self professed liberal: go back and read the article. No, I mean READ it. Check the references. Read Palin's Facebook page. Read everything you're cutting down. Until you understand what they're saying. I'm serious, because it's obvious you're not really getting the point. Most of the above liberal posts are red herrings or emotional rants base on... what?
The upside of this is that liberal flailing is forcing more and more conservatives to check the facts. Real facts, not propaganda (ooh, there's a word liberals will hate having thrown back in their faces). You don't need to visit conservative sources to see the issue right side up, but you almost certainly won't see it properly by toeing the line.
There's a reason that this bill is failing publicly and blaming conservatives for shaping public opinion (talk about the pot and the kettle) just doesn't hold water. It failed under Clinton and has been losing popularity steadily since it was presented.
Perhaps that's why this bill only has 16% support on govt' trackers like OpenCongress.org. Either those against H.R. 3200 are in the vast majority (liberal or not) or conservatives are the only ones bothering to do their own research, while liberals let their lawmakers tell them what to think.
concerned| 8.13.09 @ 1:55PM
If the elderly are included on this legislation, then why is it that if my 87 year old grandfather (who just cut back on the number of onions he planted in his two acre garden to 3,000) would need a pacemaker, he would be bumped to the bottom of the list or denied because he's too old??
Also please note that when Obama was asked if he would use his health care plan for his family, he responded that he would want the best care available (end of response). He never said he would use the plan he's promoting. That being the case, why would anyone in their right mind want this plan?
William Henley| 8.13.09 @ 1:55PM
Liberal Idiot/reader... If you are going to lie outright... At least, try to lie about something you know a tiny bit about... Dumb f,,,, oops, almost called you what you, obama, pelosi, etc. really are...
LONDON (AFP) — About 5,000 injured British troops are not able to join military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are on the British health service's waiting lists for treatment, a newspaper reported. Citing military doctors, The Daily Telegraph newspaper reported that one particular military hospital -- the Royal Hospital Haslar -- on the southern English coast was being under-used, and a consultant physician there, Peter Golding, said he was being sent soldiers referred from as far as Scotland and Germany because their local hospitals "could not cope".
A spokeswoman for the defence ministry, while declining to comment on the number quoted by the Telegraph report, told AFP that it was "committed to ensuring our personnel receive the best possible healthcare..
Patriot and Veteran| 8.13.09 @ 1:55PM
Wow, Liberal and Hello. I find it ironic that libs cannot have an actual debate without bringing out the harsh language. In my experience it has always been the libs who loved to debate. I was willing to read through all of your posts. I just don't have time for this rudeness. If you think for one moment that the conservatives of this great nation are the small-minded ones, read your own replies and see how small-minded they are. I find much ignorance in your replies.
YaImAlaskan| 8.13.09 @ 1:56PM
They Rightly fear that they will be proven to be a bunch of liars and idiots...........Sarah Palin is proof of how stupid and idiotic the republican Party has Become.
---------------------------------------------
Wow... and you think you can do better? Lets imagine here for a second that YOU had a child with disabilities- wouldn't you fight for the life of your baby? What if the government cut them off, what would Rush, Beck, Sarah Hannity Coulter, and their ilk- do to help your child LIVE?
As I see it- and Ive been an Alaskan now for many years, Palin has a clear view of what needs to happen to "clean house" We need to stop screamin about lefty/righty, dem/rep and get on America's side! We're all in this together and we will all FAIL together if all we care about is what political party our neighbor is.
-----------------------------------------------------------
American needs to learn the new rules when it comes to Logic and Common Sense.
------------------------------------------------------
ACTOUNGE good luck with that brilliant set of rules you've made for yourself. I hope for your sake when your on your way out, that you don't go over your tab the government set for you, and get your CHOICE .
"What will you be having this evening- our specials are physician aid in dying or all natural."
Sammie| 8.13.09 @ 1:58PM
Oregongirl said:
All this discussion about health care and health care reform, when what America really needs is a change in diet and a course in nutrition. MANY of the most common diseases can be traced back to our food sources.
What right do you or any government have the right to tell us how to live, how to eat etc, etc. It isn't up to YOU or the GOVERNMENT to force Americans to live in the way you think we should live. The great thing about America is that we have the freedom of CHOICE. When you work 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet, you don't have the time to cook healthy. You stop and grab what ever takes the less amount of time and if that means stopping off at a fast food joint or making hamburger helper, then that is what you do.
Yes, people have become lazy when game consoles came out, VCR'S and computers, however, no one has the right to tell me how I should be eating or how often I should exercise. We have only one life to live and by golly, I plan to enjoy it by deciding how I want to live my own life.
paula| 8.13.09 @ 1:59PM
I wonder how "Liberal Reader" would take it if the "independant group" looked at his case and decided that, since he is nearer to the end of his life than the 30 year old in the next hospital bed, and that the life saving operation or drugs would only give him a chance at 10 or 20 years of life, that the other guy should get the funding. After all if you have nothing left to contribute to society what use are you? Maybe if you agreed to sign a document saying that you will work towards the betterment of society.......???
DaMav| 8.13.09 @ 2:02PM
Sarah Palin is a Godsend. She has thrown the entire ObamaCare sales job out of kilter. Instead of lying to us about how it is going to save money and trying to silence the objective voices at the CBO, they have had to respond to charges that it sets up a systematic means by which care can be denied to groups deemed too expensive to treat.
The mistake the ObamaCare sales force has fortunately made is that instead of dealing with the issue in a straightforward way, they have been demanding that Palin and others stop asking the question. This is like ridiculing your wife who is concerned that you are having an affair by telling her, "what a dumb question, y0u have no right to ask it! Didn't I take a vow? That should settle it!"
Sarah Palin has put the entire machine on the defensive. Whether you like Palin or not, she ought to get credit for making a brilliant political move.
becky| 8.13.09 @ 2:03PM
president kavorkian
Janice| 8.13.09 @ 2:03PM
Quoting:
Tim
8.13.09 @ 1:15PM
These sorts of debates are useless when those involved are so entrenched in their own ideology that no rational examination of the facts will convince them otherwise. These discussions also inevitably lead to name-calling and such, and are a waste of time. Liberals AND Conservatives.
Now, I don't claim any party. However, I am conservative in moral, managerial (smaller government), and fiscal aspects. I also try to look at issues objectively, and I make my own decisions and form my own opinions.
----
EXACTLY!
Now if we could all just do that, things might get accomplished. Unfortunately, most sheeple (oops, there I go with the name-calling) CAN'T make their own decisions nor would they know an original opinion if it bit them in the arse. They must wait on their daily talking points to arrive before they open their mouths.
This whole debate is based on ideology, therefore ANYTHING that is actually good for our Country/Health Care/etc. is never taken at face value. It becomes good or bad based on the D or the R behind the proponents name.
Sad, but true.
I also enjoyed the rest of your post. If we could actually get TRUE REFORM, the American public would be jumping for joy instead of screaming with angst.
The way this "bill" is now, there's absolutely nothing about reform in it, only gov't. take over, mandates, extra taxes and debt, and much much more bureaucratic bullsh!t.
I would love to see TRUE reform. You see, I'm one of those who doesn't have health insurance, nor does my employer provide it. I can't afford to get it on my own, nor can I afford to be covered by my husbands. Covering him costs $12 a week. Adding me and my son costs $130 a week. We can't afford it, so if I get sick....well, who knows what we'll do, but I KNOW that what this "bill" is proposing is NOT the answer to my problems.
I'd rather having nothing than this.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 2:05PM
@ Ya I am Alaskan
How can you defend somone as stupid and ignorant as Palin? She lacks Common Sense and the brains to think on her feet.
She does not base her comment on Death Panels on Facts. Anyone can take snippets from different parts of any bill or whatever and Create falsehoods.
She is not what America is About
Being stupid should never be embraced and in the words of Sarah to prove her ignorance and lackof Common sense.
here is a portion of how stupid she is.
Six minutes long of pure brainlessness .........
not a 3 word gaffe or even a 20 second blunder that we all have done at some point
Sponsored Links
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Proud Member "Angry Mob"
Say it with t-shirts from GaffeCzar Something's "fishy" at Obama's
www.GaffeCzar.com
Humor Ads
Sarah Palin Bikini
Political Issues
Political Forum
Prank Phone Call
Political News
A transcript of a prank phone call between Quebec comedy duo "The Masked Avengers" and Alaska governor and Republican vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin.
(Listen to the Palin Prank Call)
Sarah Palin: This is Sarah.
Masked Avengers: Ah, yeah, Gov. Palin.
Palin: Hello.
Avengers: Just hold on for President Sarkozy, one moment.
Palin: Oh, it's not him yet, they're saying. I always do that.
Avengers: Yes, hello, Gov. Palin.
Palin: Hello, this is Sarah, how are you?
AVENGERS: Fine, and you? This is Nicolas Sarkozy speaking, how are you?
PALIN: Oh, it's so good to hear you. Thank you for calling us.
AVENGERS: Oh, it's a pleasure.
PALIN: Thank you sir, we have such great respect for you, John McCain and I. We love you and thank you for taking a few minutes to talk to me.
AVENGERS: I follow your campaigns closely with my special American adviser Johnny Hallyday, you know?
PALIN: Yes, good.
AVENGERS: Excellent. Are you confident?
PALIN: Very confident and we're thankful that polls are showing that the race is tightening and...
AVENGERS: Well I know very well that the campaign can be exhausting. How do you feel right now, my dear?
PALIN: I feel so good. I feel like we're in a marathon and at the very end of the marathon you get your second wind and you plow to the finish.
AVENGERS: You see, I got elected in France because I'm real and you seem to be someone who's real, as well.
PALIN: Yes, yeah. Nico, we so appreciate this opportunity.
AVENGERS: You know I see you as a president one day, too.
PALIN: Maybe in eight years.
AVENGERS: Well, I hope for you. You know, we have a lot in common because personally one of my favourite activities is to hunt, too.
PALIN: Oh, very good. We should go hunting together.
AVENGERS: Exactly, we could try go hunting by helicopter like you did. I never did that. Like we say in French, on pourrait tuer des bebe phoque s, aussi [translation: we can kill baby seals also].
PALIN: Well, I think we could have a lot of fun together while we're getting work done. We can kill two birds with one stone that way.
AVENGERS: I just love killing those animals. Mmm, mmm, take away life, that is so fun. I'd really love to go, so long as we don't bring along Vice-President Cheney.
PALIN: No, I'll be a careful shot, yes.
AVENGERS: Yes, you know we have a lot in common also, because except from my house I can see Belgium. That's kind of less interesting than you.
PALIN: Well, see, we're right next door to different countries that we all need to be working with, yes.
AVENGERS: Some people said in the last days and I thought that was mean that you weren't experienced enough in foreign relations and you know that's completely false. That's the thing that I said to my great friend, the prime minister of Canada Stef Carse.
PALIN: Well, he's doing fine, too, and yeah, when you come into a position underestimated it gives you an opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder.
AVENGERS: I was wondering because you are so next to him, one of my good friends, the prime minister of Quebec, Mr. Richard Z. Sirois, have you met him recently? Did he come to one of your rallies?
PALIN: I haven't seen him at one of the rallies but it's been great working with the Canadian officials. I know as governor we have a great co-operative effort there as we work on all of our resource-development projects. You know, I look forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally and your beautiful wife. Oh my goodness, you've added a lot of energy to your country with that beautiful family of yours.
AVENGERS: Thank you very much. You know my wife Carla would love to meet you, even though you know she was a bit jealous that I was supposed to speak to you today.
PALIN: Well, give her a big hug for me.
AVENGERS: You know my wife is a popular singer and a former top model and she's so hot in bed. She even wrote a song for you.
PALIN: Oh my goodness, I didn't know that.
AVENGERS: Yes, in French it's called de rouge a levre sur un cochon [translation: lipstick on a pig], or if you prefer in English, Joe the Plumber...it's his life, Joe the Plumber.
PALIN: Maybe she understands some of the unfair criticism but I bet you she is such a hard worker, too, and she realizes you just plow through that criticism.
AVENGERS: I just want to be sure. That phenomenon Joe the Plumber. That's not your husband, right?
PALIN: That's not my husband but he's a normal American who just works hard and doesn't want government to take his money.
AVENGERS: Yes, yes, I understand we have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France. It's called Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit.
PALIN: Right, that's what it's all about, the middle class and government needing to work for them. You're a very good example for us here.
AVENGERS: I see a bit about NBC, even Fox News wasn't an ally as much as usual.
PALIN: Yeah, that's what we're up against.
AVENGERS: Gov. Palin, I love the documentary they made on your life. You know Hustler's Nailin' Paylin?
PALIN: Ohh, good, thank you, yes.
AVENGERS: That was really edgy.
PALIN: Well, good.
Additionally
She had to wait for a Charity to help out the Citizens of SW Alaska.........She made excuses (nothing new there) about how her hands were tied .
AmericanTrucker| 8.13.09 @ 2:07PM
It is easy. Why dont you pay for your own health care? Who gives you the right to put a gun to my head and ask me to pay for you.I already have to pay for the people who run to the emergency room every time they cough. My work has insurance but I chose not to use it because I can buy it outside on the free market cheaper and so can everyone else. when people start shopping the price will drop. Also you dont have to go to the Doc every time the littlest thing comes up sometimes a little commen sence will tell you its just a cold or a little cut dont be a baby you will get better without a Doc.that is why cost are so high.
Pingback| 8.13.09 @ 2:08PM
The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Palin Is Not Wrong | americantoday links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 8.13.09 @ 2:08PM
The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Palin Is Not Wrong | americantoday links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Ang| 8.13.09 @ 2:10PM
Solo- of all the smart things I read here, your's is the smartest.
Simply, if this many Americans are so far one way or another on this issue, it deserves more time by our current administration then it took to pick out the family dog.
They are pushing so hard and so fast to get their agendas in place before it all crashes down on them.
Judy| 8.13.09 @ 2:11PM
Does ANYONE hear the word "communism" screaming in the background?? Let's see, how many examples of dominance, control, abuse, murder, devastation and destruction of countless numbers of people has this sytem created? God forbid AMERICA fall prey to such tyranny, God forbid.
jeannine Hinman| 8.13.09 @ 2:13PM
ARTONGUE, are you kidding? You really think those of us who dare to question Obama and the brilliant legislative branch's overhaul of our health care is b/c we are stupid or bigoted or only want the GOP to be "proved right"? Are you in 8th grade? I CARE about medical care and am a health care lawyer with sick relatives. Including my British brother in law with the brain tumor that Britain DENIDED surgery to b/c it would not be effective as the tumor would come back. So he married my sister and went to Johns Hopkins 11 years ago and got the surgery and died 3 months ago after holding a job down and having 2 kids. Yeah I have seen how great their "free" system is. How many Americans are flocking there or anywhwere else to get care? NONE. All of them come here for a reason. Freedom of choice and that is what the Admin and people like you do NOT value. You demonize those who disagree b/c you fear honest debate. You are intolerant of others while claiming moral superiority. That's the hypocrisy that made me leave the left wing in the first place. Practice the tolerance you preach.
TopSeer| 8.13.09 @ 2:14PM
Liberal Reader says: "Western European democracies ALL have longer life expectancy than the United States"
According to the U.N. figures, life expectancy in the United States is 78 years; in the United Kingdom, it’s 79 — yay, go socialized health care! On the other hand, in Albania, where the entire population chain-smokes and the health-care system involves swimming to Italy, life expectancy is still 71 years — or about where America was a generation or so back. Once you get childhood mortality under control, and observe basic hygiene and lifestyle precautions, the health “system” is relatively marginal. One notes that, even in Somalia, which still has high childhood mortality, not to mention a state of permanent civil war, functioning government has entirely collapsed and yet life expectancy has increased from 49 to 55. Maybe if government were to collapse entirely in Washington, our life expectancy would show equally remarkable gains. Just thinking outside the box here. [Mark Steyn]
Liberal Reader: "and ALL spend far less per capita on health care."
Wow - I guess you don't get out much - the NHS in England is the 3rd largest employer in THE WORLD, behind the Chinese army and the Indian Rail system. Bureaucrats outnumber doctors and nurses substantially. Who sold you the line that they provide more efficient health care? OH YES - you know all about Europe...
You cannot maintain that social medicine executes the elderly when they become too expensive. It's just not so.
You're right they don't 'execute' them, they just deny them treatment by putting them on endless waiting lists. And completely wash their hands of it. But I forgot, you already know all about Europe...
I've BEEN to Europe. I KNOW people there. They would cut the throats of politicians in the streets before the exchanged their system for ours.
It's so awesome that you traveled to Europe and met some socialists there. They are quite rare and you should feel very fortunate. I'm aware that many there will literally embrace socialized medicine to the death because they are so brainwashed against the free market. That's because I've LIVED there and BEEN under socialized medicine with a family, and yes, known people who have done more than had parlour (that's the UK spelling) conversations with me about socialized health care, they are actually living it. Or dying from it depending. Long waits are part of the system. Hospitals are filthy. People are lower than cattle in the system. Doctors are very poorly paid and the best and brightest don't become them. Even children are put on appallingly long waitlists for procedures that are routine here. And yes, old people die much more frequently there because they have to wait until too late to have treatable conditions seen to.
Next time you spend a week in "Europe" why don't you talk to someone from a real country over there who has suffered under that system. They are very easy to find.
npeabody| 8.13.09 @ 2:14PM
Media Hypocrisy
>
>
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense
> of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of
> inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had
given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have
approved?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England
> an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this
embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi
> Arabia, would you have approved?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had visited Aust ria and made
> reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have
brushed it off as a minor slip?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and
circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their
income taxes, would you have approved?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate
> as to refer to the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo) as "Cinco de
Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador, and continued to flub it
when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had mis-spelled the word advice
> would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and
"potatoe" as proof of what a dunce he is?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet
> fuel to go plant a sing le tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded
he's a hypocrite?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush's administration had OK'd Air
> Force One (along with a fighter jet) to fly low over downtown
Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they
actually get what happened on 9-11?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had been the first President to
> need a teleprompter just to be able to get through a press conference,
would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is
and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid
> to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or
made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major
ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the
> CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional
authority to do so, would you have approved?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had proposed to double the
> national debt in one year, which had taken more than two centuries to
accumulate, would you have approved?
>
>
> If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the
> debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement
> plans holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority
stake in GM, would you have approved?
>
>
>
> If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of
> thousands of taxpayer dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC
during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, would you
have approved?
>
>
> Will someone please enlighten me, what is it about
> Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? Can't think of
anything? No nee to hurry. He's done all this in his first 5 months as
president -- so, you have three years and seven months to come up with
an answer.
>
RedRobin| 8.13.09 @ 2:14PM
IF chance this Healthcare program gets approved, when a child is born, they will be tagged that after 70 yrs of age or before if become ill, will not be treated to prolong their life...thats kinda strange, because most of our dignataries in Washington are at or above that age. What is good for the goose is good for the gander...Run these out and get a younger group. It isn't up to an individual but God.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 2:15PM
Middle class conservative:
AT LAST, someone around here makes a good argument.
I choose to attribute that to your middle class status, rather than the other.
At any rate, you make an EXCELLENT point.
If government were going to be put "in charge" of the medical system, I'd be very worried about that, particularly since one party denies the government can do any good, then gets itself elected to prove it.
However, there are NO proposals being proffered that would put the government "in charge" of the entire medical industry.
There ARE provisions that would set up a "public option," although I doubt it will pass.
What will happen is that the government will regulate private insurance more strictly, to ensure that they cannot deny you for prior conditions or drop you if you get sick.
This is a good start.
And the government, as always, will be responsible to the people. You can vote them out of office if they don't do what they say they're going to do.
Try voting Blue cross blue shield out of Alabama, where they run 75% of the private health care.
Dwight| 8.13.09 @ 2:16PM
New welcome message to all entering the US.
Welcome to the United States of China.
Right On| 8.13.09 @ 2:16PM
Biggcatt for President!
schalana| 8.13.09 @ 2:22PM
Tobias, you and I are on the same page... i agree with everything you said! however, i would like to add a few things if i may.. Serial criminals who repeatedly commit violent crimes should be removed from our society, permanently. if prison taught them nothing the first or second time, why send them back 3 or 4 more times? doing harm to another human being should terminate your rights to civil liberties. also, if a death sentence is handed down, it should be carried out within one year. no more hanging around for 20 years...
Leslie| 8.13.09 @ 2:23PM
No bill, Liberal Reader??? Funny, this looks like it to me: http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Don't you just hate it when people actually know what they are talking about?
Erica| 8.13.09 @ 2:24PM
I have just one thing to say to you "Liberal Reader."
We don't like your kind in here. So stay out. Your opinion is not something we like, or want to hear. Just wait til the bill is signed... you'll see how much of your freedom you're going to lose. Just wait and see.
24AheadDotCom | 8.13.09 @ 2:28PM
Is Palin as "dangerous" as many of her supporters are inept?
1. There might be something like "death panels", but that needs to be stated in a defensible way, one that can't be so easily pushed back against.
2. Those who are lying about the possible presence of those panels need to be taught that their credibility will suffer due to their lies. That means that if a reporter lies about this, someone needs to write something online that points out to their readers that that reporter was lying.
3. Instead of useless rants and chanting like ACORN members, people should be encouraged to ask questions at meetings that will serve to reveal the truth about these panels. I mean "prosecutorial-style" questioning, not the rants or open-ended questions most people are used to.
Erica| 8.13.09 @ 2:30PM
I agree with Leslie... that's the same bill I've been reading as well.
freedomfyter| 8.13.09 @ 2:31PM
Since he clearly has no grasp of facts or logic, could Liberal Reader be employed by the Obamacrats simply to incite the working masses who dare to oppose the king?
Nobama| 8.13.09 @ 2:31PM
Actongue is that pervert liberal blogger, Jesse Griffin. Return to your slimy rock, astroturfing liar.
Sarah Palin had the courage to use two words "death panels" and she permanently derailed Obama Death Care.
Great job, Sarah; way to drive the health care debate!
Jim| 8.13.09 @ 2:33PM
The Doctors are already getting paid more for using the least expensive methods of care for the elderly on medicaid/medicare.
this is a fact that was published several years ago.
I beleive I read the artical in Readers Digest.
With the new obummercare will docs get more money for less treatment?
Nancy | 8.13.09 @ 2:34PM
I continue to be amazed at how some citizens blindly accept this health care plan. It has become very obvious that the majority of Democrates, Replicans, Liberals and Conservatives do not want this bill. Yet the people we chose to represent us do what the President wants because he thinks he knows what is best for us, so he is going to do it and we will be glad later. Horse Feathers!
Supporters keep holding up medicare, medicade, and VA as popular programs. They may be popular thats why they are all in financial trouble. If the goverment can't run those programs efficiently, how can we hope for them to run a huge program like they are proposing.
Pay for Performance, what a joke! You pay a physican to give care based on a set of guidelines set my some bauracrate or clean set of research facts that will intentionally cause pain! Doctors took an oath to prolong life when possible and eliminate suffering. When a doctor is told a hip replacement is not approved and if you do it anyway you will be penalized, they must give care that intentionally promotes suffering and they have broken their oath. Having had a hip replacement at 49, I can tell you I was in a lot of pain and suffered with every step. Had I not been able to have that replacement the pain and suffering would only have gotten worse, and it shouldn't matter whether you are 49 or 89. One persons life is worth no more or no less than anothers!
Our health care system is not perfect and it needs some improvement, but this is not the way! The first thing that needs to happen is that people who have health care available thru their work should be forced to participate. Many tend to their "I wants" and think the insurance is to0 expensive. They need to be making the tough choices and doing without a few things they want to provide what they and their family needs. That would decrease our uninsured roles substancially! My husband and I have made those tough choices. We carry 2 health insurance policies and 3 dental. Do I apoligize for having good insurance, NO! We continue to pay for ours and the increases in cost and premiums that helps to compensate for the uninsured.
I told my doctor I was terriblely concerned and that I knew our health care needed improvement and I didn't object on helping to pay for it, but not at the expense of losing my own insurance. She looked at me and replied, "You are already paying for it, and the real truth is that anyone who is sick will get seen and treated."
Our health care system needs to get better; however, it is still way better than what the administration is proposing! Scrape this program and work in a bipartisan way to come up with a plan that helps everyone and is favored by the people.
Joe G| 8.13.09 @ 2:38PM
Sarah Palin has done it again. She has the liberals and the main street media forthing from both ends. One of the positives is she has the white house and democrats scrambling to read the act.
The second thing worth noting from the amount of flow more people are recognizing that Obama is a consumate pathological liar.
We all want health care reform but lets understand what is being advocated will cause massive amount s of new funding that is going to affect all of us including unions, beurocrats and democrats, except for the annointed few.
JeffJ| 8.13.09 @ 2:38PM
@Actongue "Being stupid should never be embraced and in the words of Sarah to prove her ignorance and lackof Common sense."
Is English your first language? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
Your definition of stupidity is falling for a crank call deliberately designed to embarrass her? By a team that does that kind of thing to people all over North America? For a living?
All she did was speak politely and cautiously. Are you going to tell someone who you believe to be the French President that he's being an idiot or is an impostor while on a casual call with no agenda or forwarning until you know for sure that the person on the other end isn't who they claim to be? If you believe you would, you're lying, or you're subject to a greater level of idiocy than you are accusing Sarah Palin for.
That call told me she's more qualified than most people to work with foreign dignitaries, and when she found out it wasn't real she did exactly the right thing. She just walked away, even though she had every right to be angry.
If that's all you have to go by your argument fails out of the gate. One of the biggest problems in the liberal camp is to accept "entertainment" even in its worst and most tasteless form, as political motivation. Life isn't TV.
Also,please, when cutting and pasting, check to see what you're submitting. You lose a lot of credibility in posting an ad for "Sarah Palin Sex Dolls."
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 2:38PM
I'd like to respond to the people that think I would have lived - even under this Health Reform Bill. I, as an American, made it my duty to read every single word of this health bill - which clearly a lot of people have not done. This bill discriminates against the elderly and people who may be disadvantaged by a chronic illness or disease. If someone 28 living on nothing but government welfare subsidies walks through the door and says she needs to see a Doctor for the flu, this is what happens according to this bill. The 55 year old who is sitting there (has taken time off from work to be there) would just have to wait until all the younger, people who have more years to offer society are seen.
Further, I have a bit of an advantage having lived in the UK with National Healthcare for a while, and in Amsterdam. There are routinely high percentages of the elderly and chronically ill that die in the UK due to their system. My husband's aunt couldn't get in to see a specialist due to the valuation system stating a person's age puts them where they need to be on a waiting list. She is dead now, from a disease that is routinely overcome with early prevention.
I have good friends in Sweden, who have a national healthcare system. They have
Not a Lemming| 8.13.09 @ 2:39PM
This is not Health Care, Nobody is talking about hiring doctors, nurses or any other health professonal for the general public.. This is nationalized Health Insurance Plan.
Death Panel.. sure as with any Insurance company someone has to determine the pay out. As the administration costs out run the payouts the only logical conclusion will be to deny people health services. being denied is not the end if you could afford to pay in person. That will exactly leave out the elderly, disabled, homeless and every low income person they are trying to tell you this will cover.
You should be even more scared about the national health database. You Have all agreed to make semi-public all your private history. If you have AIDs you will be checked in the national data base by employeers, passports, visas, it will keep track of your personal relationships in the name of tracking the disease. If you think getting your credit fixed after a mistake is hard.. wait until you have to call washington DC and fix your medicial records because you were denied a job based on wrong information.
I have nothing to hide.. but that is no excuse to allow goverment to keep track of me and decide what will be best for me.
Tim Singleton | 8.13.09 @ 2:40PM
Well, it is common knowledge that there is nothing dumber than a chicken or a New York Democrat. I guess Liberal Reader is a perfect case in point.
You can call it a Holley 4 barrell or a carberator or a air/fuel mixing device, a panel that determines whether or not health care measures are justified for someone who is ill based on expected outcome or whether that person can contribute to society is a Death Panel. Calling it a Life Panel is the same as calling death camp storm troopers Correctional Officers.
Does it hurt Liberal Reader? To know that YOU personally may have contributed to the deaths of thousands by voting for Obama and his healthcare? Well, it will after a few years when you and if you see the fruits of what you so madly covet come to pass. Will you whine, "But I didn't know? I was lied to? Will your excuses bring back all the beautiful babies aborted because of disablity? The old people whose age and experience we no longer have because of Obama's drive to power?
Do yourself a favor and get rid of all your mirrors now. They will crush you when you have to look at yourself.
Paul| 8.13.09 @ 2:48PM
Sarah Palin is exactly right about the "death panel". There is a death panel in the House bill although it is not called that by name. People who refuse to hear this are fools. There is already a death panel in Oregon where socialized state run healthcare exists today! Americans need to wake up and realize the disaster we are headed for with government run healthcare. Hey, I thought the liberals and "Beltway Republicans" told us Sarah Palin was not well read and was weak on issues!
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 2:49PM
As I was saying, before prematurely posting...
My friends in Sweden leave the country and pay full price in other countries to get adequate healthcare - and are still burdened with unbelievable taxes.
The healthcare bill needs to be revised to reflect fixing the problems of the 15% that are uninsured, and leaving the other 85% alone. It should not require the government to "clip" people's inherent freedoms in this country to solve the problem.
In closing, we need to stop bashing Democrats and Republicans to get down to the business of honest debate and change. We are Americans, first and foremost - not the members of political parties.
S. G.| 8.13.09 @ 2:51PM
Just a note for you Mr. Liberal. I've been to Europe myself. Perhaps you never looked at any of their TEETH while you were there. End of story.
Otherwise, I have no other arguments for you. In fact, I propose we let you all take over and run this great country straight into the ground! Because apparently, like bad children, that's the only way you're going to learn.
Susan~mom of 5!| 8.13.09 @ 2:54PM
First and foremost, I'm so thankful for all who are on America's side! I also LOVE Sarah Palin. She is an ispiration!
My question is...What do we the people DO about all this? What Obama and his people in office are doing to theis country is a crime!! It amazes me how many people ignore it!! We aren't in high school anymore, you have to grow up and take responsibilty and get THE FACTS!!!!
SO, what do 'We the People' do?
Hank Sinatra| 8.13.09 @ 2:54PM
Dear Liberal Reader,
The "Republican" you refer to is on the record refuting the claim that he made any contribution to or is involved in any way with the current healthcare proposals. He has flat out denied any participation in the process thusfar, so who do we believe? President Obama has stated that the AARP endorses the healthcare proposals, but the AARP has refuted in a public statement that claim. Hmmm... It seems that there is a lot of misrepresentation going on from the Administration and Congress to make this seem less threatening then what it actually is... Why? Perhaps Mr. Obama should just "take the pain killer".
We can only hope and pray that President Obama has an epiphany so challenging to his worldview that he wakes up in time to stop this train before it destroys our country...or his legacy will be the undoing of the greatest country in the world, fiddling while all its hope, freedom and prosperity burns to the ground.
K Ashford| 8.13.09 @ 2:55PM
The logic of this piece reminds of the 9/11 Truthers' logic.
Just because you can piece together a scenario does not make that scenario real, or even likely.
I can cherrypick the same data points from the "research" and come to the conclusion that "Obamacare" really is a trojan horse for having panels which bend over backwards to cater to prolonging life, while running up a federal deficit. Who's to say I'm wrong?
Put another way, I can connect dots any damn way I choose, and create anything from a unicorn to WMDs in Iraq, especially if I get to pick the dots, and ascribe any motives I want. The hard part is justifying my basis for making these connections, something which Scandlen can't or won't do.
Constitution Lady| 8.13.09 @ 2:57PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17352956/House-Health-Reform-Bill
READ IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eziekle Emanual, health science advisor, proports sterilants in drinking water to 'secretly' control population growth and a child is NOT a human being unless or until it can recognize a 'tomorrow'! Up til that point a child can be aborted. Read his writings! What about Jeffery Imelt, (the nearly bankrupt General Electric),stands to make BILLIOBS off of the Obama Health Reform!! And there is Von Jones( an avowed Communist and convicted felon) Holdren a socialist(Not to be confused with Eric Holder) and so many more.
Obama said 'to know him, to know how he will lead, is to look at the people he surrounds himself. He has alot of very shady and even criminals surrounding him in the White House! More than 42 czars who answer to NOONE but Obama!!!!!!!!!!??????? Talk about constructing the frame work of another government! One that will make our own Gov. and Congress in particular impotent!
'Different people have very different reactions to President Barack Obama. Those who listen to his rhetoric are often inspired. While those that ACTUALLY follow what he DOES are often appalled'...'How long will it be before the public gets tired of the know-it-all sermonettes by Obama, especially since nothing he is doing is actually working?'... Thomas Sowell 08/13/09
K Ashford| 8.13.09 @ 2:57PM
And by the way....
Actuarial tables which cost-benefit analysis of keeping someone alive? Guidelines for when to permit and when to deny coverage?
Who here thinks insurance companies aren't using those tools right NOW?
Peteyk| 8.13.09 @ 3:00PM
Sarah is the most popular woman in America. While Hillary is Showing people how to plant banana trees and watermelons in Haiti, Sarah is traveling our country, trying to save it from liberals.
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 3:09PM
For the ones in the debate who have yet to read the bill, here is the link.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 3:18PM
A couple of points that haven't been discussed:
There are many sections mandating funding and manadatory treatment by the Doctors for anyone seeking abortions. This tramples on the Doctor's belief systems, the laws of the country, and mandates the entire country will be funding this through taxation??
Second point: Many millions of people in this country are on court ordered medications to keep their fellow citizens safe from these psychotic personalities. If the bill went through in the current state, there will be problems in the court systems (nullifying all their directives), and we will have dangerous people putting the rest of the population at risk.
Third point: The founding fathers made it quite clear in all their writings that when the government begins to change the basic freedoms outlined - that are available to citizens of the US, we will come very close to failing as a nation.
Fourth point: The government should not have the right to every citizen's bank account information. With all the scandals (on both sides), and corrupt nature of unlimited terms for senators, and congress......do you want to entrust your funds's access to the thousands of people (some with criminal infractions)?
It appears this bill is a "sideways" attempt to change laws without engaging in honest debate.
DeclareTruth| 8.13.09 @ 3:18PM
Liberal Reader - you really need to go and read the d*** bill! Until you do, all you're going to offer up is blather, and we are already overdosing on that from the Whitehouse.
Christine| 8.13.09 @ 3:19PM
I joined the democrat party more than 20 years ago believing in social justice. Like Sarah Palin, I also joined Feminist for Life believing in social justice. No matter how Barack can sugar coat this with charismatic rhetoric, we have a new group - discompassionate liberal! What we had before in health care worked!! Ask any foreigner who sees how much better it is in the U.S.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 3:23PM
JeffJ
You are right in that I need to proofread before I post. My typing is horrendous and I did inadvertently post those links which I apo9logize for. If there was a way to edit my post I would have removed those links promptly.
Though the Masked Avengers do make prank calls to a variety of people be it a politician or a private Citizen such as Bill Gates.
They do not go on for Six minutes giggling and laughing and coming up with idiotic statements in regards to the question or comment made toward them.
They gave Sarah 2-3 clues a minute that it was not Sarkozy yet she was unable to deduce that and had to be told that it was a prank call six minutes into it.
The Key point is that a person with common Sense and intelligence figures out within the first minute or two that the phone Call is a prank.
She should have caught on early in the call.
Being the Governor of a State that borders Canada and that she did the pipeline deal she should know who runs the Country of Canada.
It all points to how she is not able to act in a professional manner, and have the common sense and intelligence to think on her feet.
HumboldtBlue| 8.13.09 @ 3:25PM
Yeah, I'm going to listen to the Wasilla Quitta as she attempts to explain a health care bill she hasn't read and in no way will understand if she makes an attempt to read it. Next you're going to have Glenn Beck explain how Liberals are really Nazis because they are. The only thing this nation wants from Palin is her silence. She and her party we handily repudiated at the polls in November so she can now go quietly back to her life as a grifter. Elections have consequences, and as we witness on a daily basis, the GOP and their supporters can't seem to understand that they are collection of pearl-clutching nutbags who are mocked, ridiculed and laughed at for good reason -- they gave us Palin.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 3:26PM
Sharon
I hope you do realize that it is because of the "Patriot Act" that the personal information has to be disclosed.
This current form of the bill is proof that the so called "Patriot Act" needs to be drastically changed from its current form.
freedom4all| 8.13.09 @ 3:27PM
If this were really about helping those without health insurance, then many measures could be taken to solve that problem without having to engage in this battle over attempts to infringe on the medical care of the majority who are happy with their current plan (tort reform, removing barriers to acquire cost-competitive personal insurance, giving tax breaks for medical expenses, etc.).
The fact that politicians refuse to consider a plan other than the one they've put forward reveals that this is more about the government's desire to grab more control over you and your money. Quite frankly, I'm stunned that there is any support for this bill among average citizens.
While the President rails against special interests, it's precisely corporate interests and the administration's cronies who will benefit the most. They have resorted to thug-like intimidation tactics to protect the millions they have invested in the mechanics of this massive plan. Don't let them get away with stripping you of your freedoms. Our forefathers fought to preserve the freedom our country was founded upon. Now it's our turn to meet this challenge head on and defend our country against this tyrannical power grab.
Daron| 8.13.09 @ 3:28PM
This article, like the comment by sarah palin, is subject to criticism and is in fact only another OPINION. Sarah Palin has made many bizarre accusations against President Obama which seem silly in the end. That he pals around with terrorists, making him one in the end? That he would take everyone's guns away, I don't know about you all, but I ... Read Morestill can buy one. That he would not defend our citizens against attack, I would reference the EXPERT handling of the pirate situation off the coast of Africa, and that we just recently invaded a part of Afghanistan until then basically LEFT FOR THE TALIBAN. So, Sarah Palin's smear campaign knows no bounds, and while that may be sort of the case about death panels. WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK ALREADY GOES ON WITH BILLION DOLLAR INSURANCE COMPANIES. They already decide if you had a preexisting condition whether or not they cover things. So instead of the government making those decisions, we should let insurance?
What's the difference? And we're not talking about life and death. We're talking about Insurance. We're talking about whether or not it's covered. if someone thinks a procedure is life or death they can do what people do now. By pass the insurance and pay for it themselves. If they can't afford to do that... well then probably they're uninsured and WANT THIS PLAN that Obama has come up with. This is typical Sarah Palin fear mongering and frankly I'm sick of it.
Fact Checker| 8.13.09 @ 3:31PM
In honor of Sarah Palin, "quit making things up!"
This article starts misleading the reader at "there is plenty that would lead to... that outcome.", implying that the laws will inevitably lead to "death panels". From that point on it is mostly conjecture and does not cite authoritative sources.
Sarah wrote on on Facebook: "There are many disturbing details in the current bill that Washington is trying to rush through Congress, but we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment. Such tactics diminish our nation's civil discourse which we need now more than ever because the fine print in this outrageous health care proposal must be understood clearly and not get lost in conscientious voters' passion to want to make elected officials hear what we are saying. Let's not give the proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us."
She is right in that regard.
jim| 8.13.09 @ 3:33PM
Sarah Palin is so dangerous because she's an idiot and she has a whole bunch of idiots believing in her. She and the ultra right wingers are spreading misinformation and fear.
Wondering Mother| 8.13.09 @ 3:38PM
I can't figure out why these liberals want to waste their time on here. Are they so scared of Palin or do they feel an overwhelming need to have their opinion of her be heard? Is it they need the attention or do they just hate? Frankly the constant Sarah Bashing just makes you look like you have no life. If you are confident in your political opinions and beliefs, then there is no reason to be here. You're not convincing anybody on here of anything and you know that. You just like the confrontation. Only desperate or insecure people need to go around shoving their opinions on people who clearly don't care what they have to say. What a waste of time you are.
Valerie| 8.13.09 @ 3:39PM
Wow, look at all the posts! I wish I had time to read them all (not really - it's bad for my attitude). I got as far as this one before I blew my temper:
*****************************************
Quote:
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 12:42PM
Sharon
You totally miss what the bill is about on this Issue
It only gives the person the option if they "So Choose" of their own free will to make the decision to pull the plug.....you have Total Control of the issue.
You would not have died back then if this was in place then and u would still be with your Grandkids.
*******************************************
Oh, God help us, Actongue. You and liberals like you are so stupid! I am amazed daily at the shallow reasoning and simple-minded conclusions that liberals come to. And then I am doubly amazed that the same idiots have the audacity to turn and call the rest of us "stupid."
Sharon was saying, Actongue, that she would have died if Obamacare was in effect back then because she would have been denied the treatments that evidently saved her life. The Universal Healthcare committees (whatever you will call them) would have considered her treatments too costly and not likely to save her life. Most assuredly, Sharon's survival was against the odds. She and her physician chose to pursue all options - even the long-shots. Sharon's point, Actongue, is that she would not have those options at her disposal under government-controlled healthcare; and she would be correct to assume so.
Actongue, you jumped immediately to the first thought your shallow mind could grasp: That she must be thinking the end-of-life consultant would recommend she choose to end her life. No, dear, her point was a bit more nuanced than that. Try to keep up.
Betty Shinn| 8.13.09 @ 3:39PM
No one has to listen to Sarah if they don't want to. Just listen to Obama himself, he tells how it is going to be....He told the one lady that her mother may be better with just a pain killer instead of a pacemaker. To him she would not beproductive at her age.... He should give up his insurance and take what he wants us to get!!!
Simplejoys4| 8.13.09 @ 3:41PM
Dear Liberal Reader...
you may have "been to Europe" but I actually lived there for several years and never ran into anyone who thought the socialized medicine worked well. I also utilized the system while there and there is NO WAY I want to see it in the USA. They all, without exception, expressed the desire to have health care as offered in the USA.
Right On| 8.13.09 @ 3:44PM
Palin 2012 - 2014.5
Sherry| 8.13.09 @ 3:51PM
People who are for this bill have not read it. Just take a quick look at defendyourhealth.com pages
16,29,30,42,50,59,65,72,84,95,102, just skim over them if you can read english you can see why they are calling it a death panel. The Government will have total control who lives and who dies. You have no say, this is a way to correct the defict by killing off the disabled, and elderly, and only keeping the healthy working productive people in the system. That how Obama is fixing health care, by killing half of the population off, so were not such a strain on the system! Check it out for yourselves before you open your mouths, open your eyes first!
freedom4all| 8.13.09 @ 3:52PM
The real crux of this issue: Why is it necessary to interfere with the health care of the satisfied majority in order to cover a mere 5% of the population? Excuse me, HR3200 still won't cover all the uninsured. I'm not against everyone having access to healthcare. I'm just opposed to being forced to sacrifice my own. Supporters of this bill should migrate to a communist country that's more to their liking instead of systematically changing the essence of America. Sadly, an unfortunate trend has emerged in the last few decades that the will of the majority is ignored in favor of the whims of a few.
Bryon| 8.13.09 @ 3:52PM
I unlike liberal reader am not afraid to put up a name......Liberal Reader.....you are a liar!.....You dont know anyone in Europe....no one in their right mind unless they are a government drone themselves thinks the system is worth a crap....the best health care resides on US military bases....you are a joke and people like you are dangerous for the misinformation you spread!
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 3:58PM
Valerie
You buy into the BS that Rush and Palin and the rest have said about Death Panels.
Just Because they say it does not make it true.
Nothing in the Bill would have prevented her from pursuing options
There is nothing in Section 1233 that says that she would be denied
5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term `order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--
`(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
`(ii) effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
`(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
`(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.
`(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may
range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit
some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of
treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--
`(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse
less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
`(ii) the individual's desire regarding transfer to a hospital or
remaining at the current care setting
The only person that jumped to any conclusion is you.
Now If you have proof otherwise I would like to see it
Simplejoys
Why is it I know people in Europe and Canada that would not want anything to do with our system. They are more then happy with their system and find it far superior to what we have here today.
Auguste | 8.13.09 @ 4:01PM
254 people died in Alaska waiting for a Medicaid death panel during a 2.5 year period.
Palin's only against death panels when she's not running them.
Marcia| 8.13.09 @ 4:02PM
Why do Europeans (and Africans, and Canadians, and Mexicans . . . ) who are able to do so travel to America for medical treatment?
Folks, the proposed health care reform is already in place, on a smaller scale, in Massachusetts. Employers must participate or face a $295/employee/year tax. Before the law was passed, the uninsured rate was a little over 10%. One year following enactment, the rate had dropped to 7.9%. However, the non-partisan policy research group, the Center for Studying Health System Change in Washington, DC, determined that the plan has cost Massachusetts employers an additional $540 MILLION dollars a year. [Source: HR Magazine, March 2009, p.42] And Massachusetts is not a very large commonwealth. Now, where do you think employers recoup that $540,000,000? If you said by laying off employees, slashing other benefits, and raising the cost of goods and services provided, go to the head of the class. Can America afford this? I think not, but maybe that's what the good people of Massachusetts deserve for regularly re-electing the likes of Chappaquidick Ted Kennedy and the pathetic Bawney Fwank!
Medicare and Medicaid are regularly over budget, even as services provided are reduced each year. And how many veterans avail themselves of "free" care at VA hospitals if they can afford private hospitals? If this new plan is so great, why aren't our elected representatives clamoring to sign up? I suspect if they were made to live under the laws they enact for the rest of us, they would at least bother to read the bills before voting! Finally, why has the White House created a snitch line (flag.whitehouse.gov) for Americans to report dissenters of Obamacare? This feature, more than anything else, makes my blood run cold. What will happen to that list of names? This kind of "rat out your neighbor" program is worthy of Sadaam Hussein's government, not that of Barack Hussein Obama. It's how Sadaam garnered universal approval for his policies and programs. I don't think Americans--Democrats, Republicans or Independent Patriots like me--will put up with that kind of nonsense for very long.
A final thought: What has happened to reasoned debate and courteous discourse? Name calling, cursing and demonization of those who disagree add nothing to the national conversation, and only makes those who engage in it seem weak-minded and irrelevant. Just a thought.
Robert Smith| 8.13.09 @ 4:07PM
Liberal reader.
Why is it that when you liberals take a stand or speak out about something, you consider it to be true, especially if your inept leader has said it. You seem to believe everything he says and become his "Sheep". When a conservative speaks out you want to attack with anger and make foul suggestive attacks that truely show your inferior brain power, lack of intellectual thinking. I bet you wear a t shirt, backward hat and follow anything that your are told to do, and cruise by foot up one gutter to antother. Someone come along and offer you money to be a schill. If you get your way I hope you personally have the opportunity in your lifetime to face the decision making panel and that you miss by the one point that you still have that stuff on your nose.. Go back to your drug house , get high and leave intelligent people to visit without your inferior input. I bet you found this site by pushing some buttons. push the X on the top right and stay there.
Deanna| 8.13.09 @ 4:11PM
a thought - every now and then I wonder if the libs may be right and all my mistrust is misplaced. Then I remember the bulky 3:00 a.m. addition to the stimulus bill that was passed by those same libs. That is the sort of pol. I can trust with my mother's healthcare? NOT
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 4:12PM
America is best when it comes to Cancer survival rates that is a Fact and that may contribute to people from other countries coming here.
Oddly enough cuba does have a slightly higher breast cancer rate. As to why it would be interesting to find out.
Marcia you talk about civil discourse yet at the same time you use the Words "ObamaCare" which in itself some people would be put on edge by.
It is always easiest to overlook ones own words since almost all of us do it"}
The Facts are though that in most Countries in Europe and including Canada have an overall better health care system where people pay less and get more.
Liberal Reader| 8.13.09 @ 4:15PM
Deanna --
You understand, of course, that Medicare is a single payer, government run health care system, I assume.
If your mother is old enough, she has Medicare, and it's far more trustworthy than private health insurance -- believe me.
Medicare has no profit motive: it does not view your mother's health costs as cutting into its profits.
That's what PRIVATE insurance does.
It sees any expenditure on YOUR health as ONLY a loss of profit.
Think about it, Deanna.
In the private system, you PAY a company to HIRE people to figure out a way to DENY you coverage if you get sick.
Is that what you want?
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 4:22PM
Liberal Reader
You are absolutely correct.
Those on the Far right though will cry
"Free Market only"
Yet it is the free market for "Healthcare insurance is why we are in this mess today with Healthcare in this country.
It has proven itself to be unable to give reasonable priced health care to even the people that they have now.
Even if We were taxed for healthcare we would get more bang for our buck then we do with the Health insurance companies.
(The lowest price in my State I could find is about 150 dollars a month but then you have to pay between 2000 to 7500 dollars in deductible fees alone)
My friend in Canada pays 108 dollars a month for herself and her two kids and they get full coverage and no deductible.
Now how anyone can claim that we have an overall better health care system is just ignoring facts.
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 4:23PM
Actongue, We can all debate the various parts of the bill with you, but I surmise based upon your retorts and reasoning that it would be for naught. Therefore, I only have one question for you.
IF this bill is so good for the country, why were various members of Congress unwilling to have it apply to them or their families?
Robert Smith| 8.13.09 @ 4:23PM
I at times get irritated with idiots like this "Liberal reader. I think that I would like to see them banned, but then this country is about free speech and freedom. He is not equipped to have a battle of wits on here or anywhere and I believe that his is a paid individual on the liberal payroll. Is anyone that stupid???? I have news for you dummy. My daughter lives in Germany, and her job takes her all over Europe. Her and her husband make way into upper income. SHE MAINTAINS HER US CITIZENSHIP TO COME BACK HERE FOR HER MEDICAL CARE AND SAYS SHE WOULD DIE WAITING FOR CARE ANYWHERE IN THE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE COUNTRYS. . By the way , why don't do all of us and yourself a favor. Since you think that they are great and you obviously don't like it here. MOVE OUT OF THIS COUNTRY. And then maybe you shall find some truth on your own.
NOTalib| 8.13.09 @ 4:27PM
After reading the comments and seeing the arrogance displayed by Liberal Reader, I think he is a paid staffer for the O'Bobblehead administration.
MOR| 8.13.09 @ 4:32PM
WOW! Why all the irrelevant venom? Makes me not-so-proud to be an American.
Just a couple of comments:
1. I don't like that the current bill does not seem to address pharmaceutical costs (same pill is more expensive here than in Canada) or tort reform (causing ridiculous costs of malpractice insurance). Disclaimer: This is based on hear-say, not based on my interpretation of "the bill," because I haven't read it.
2. I do think that a milder form of "death panels" exists in insurance companies today and experienced it when the insurance company stated that 6 PT sessions was enough after my hip replacement surgery. My opinion is that the government will only make that worse.
3. I think life expectancy has many factors. I believe that unemployment is higher and average income is far lower in most of Europe. Europeans don't have to worry as much about paying for the basics, given all of the public assistance. But I know from ex-pats living here there's also no incentive to innovate/excell/move up.
Peace, everyone. Play nice.
Wondering Mother| 8.13.09 @ 4:34PM
"You understand, of course, that Medicare is a single payer, government run health care system, I assume. and it's far more trustworthy than private health insurance -- believe me. Medicare has no profit motive"
You don't understand much about life do you? This is why you people think this government run health care is going to work out JUST GREAT. Medicare is BROKE. BUSTED. All OUR money is being FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET. They don't have to worry about profits. WELL OF COURSE NOT! They can just print more money or reach into MY pocket for more. That's not being trustworthy. That's being STUPID. You do know that those of us that still have jobs are not going to be able to finance all this pie in the sky government waste for much longer. Oh that's right.....liberals don't deal in REALITIES.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 4:37PM
Sharon
In that I do agree with you and the main problem is that it should not be pushed thru as fast as they tried/are trying too...........That though tends to be the case for alot of Bills no matter what the subject/topic it covers.
The other aspect though is atleast for soem Bills people would be clamouring about the Governemnt takes way to long to pass bills since tht is what they are paid to do
The other fact is
There are people like Rush and others that would be opposed to this Bill no matter how long and how well it was discussed and gone over and improved on. He and some others have Stated that anything that resembles universal health care would be opposed by him.
In terms of the Death panel aspect a big part of that issue is due to the tremendous cost of Medicine and our treatments such as Chemo.
Finding ways to reduce those costs alone would do wonders to improve our health care system.
Robert Smith
Your daughter is lieing to herself and to you in terms of health care in "Socialized Medicine countries"
She just does not want to be treated by "Socialized Medicine" because like many she is afraid that it is not as bad as made out to be.
My cousin and her husband worked for years in Germany and have found that Americans are being lied to as to how bad it is.
When they had to go they found that there was no Waiting line
My aunt and her husband were in Germany (Wow its Germany Again) and my Uncle needed to have foot surgery due to an injury sustained while Visiting and They were seen right away and they found the Service and the care to be great.
So much for either your lies or your daughters fears of how wrong she is.
BTW does your daughter work for a European company?
Instead of moving Americans have for years worked on improving our country .
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 4:40PM
A point of clarification on the comments earlier from Actongue to Valerie. There was citing of the usual innocuous statements scattered throughout the bill and it was stated I would have had choices and full treatment had the health bill been in force.
Sir, I draw your attention to page 30, beginning with section 123. The partisan government appointed committee has the final say so on who gets what.
This is disconcerting considering the primary advisor on this bill was Dr. Ezekial Emmanuel who touts the best system is the one favoring healthcare benefits maximized for the younger generation. He has been heavily documented in many journals about his policies which discriminate against the very young and the older (above 40) crowd. We have reason to be concerned.
Brian| 8.13.09 @ 4:44PM
The worst part of Sarah Palin's comments are that people actually listen to her. She is banking on the ignorance of those who would follow her, spreading fear and lies. Those are the facts.
Stop being lead by people who claim to be Conservatives. They are taking your belief and fear and blinding you to reality.
Insurance companies and their plan gatekeepers are the real "death panels." They place a value on your life all the time. They are trying to make a profit and you are the cattle. Healthcare reform is needed to break this cycle.
This is a topic that needs reasoned debate and discussion. It doesn't need a bunch of fools falling for the lies about socialism and death panels. Stop being duped by sites like this. Start thinking for yourself, act like you belong in a community. Act like the welfare of others matter. In other words, be the Christian you have deluded yourself into thinking you are, talk about real reform, don't scream the lies that have been projected onto you.
Sarah Palin for Hall Monitor 2010.
Goodgirl| 8.13.09 @ 4:47PM
What I find amazing is that we're even here having this debate. We have become such an entitlement mentallity people. "What's my government going to do for me!, What are you going to give me!" "ME, ME, ME!!!" Wasn't it a Dem. that said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." JFK The more our government does for us the less freedom we have. Some things in this life are not rights but priviledges. It just amazes me how backwards we've become.
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the goverened. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 4:49PM
Actongue, I appreciate your concern over those who would not be happy with anything. HOWEVER, we shall always have people who are not happy with the situation. There are people on the far left, just as unreachable as the right. The key is to have open, honest, non-partisan debate at a high level. The majority of the people don't see that happening, is why there is such a tremendous concern. It looks and feels like the government is trying to We as Americans should apply the policies that best accomodate the majority of the people. The battle between all of the political powers in Washington is causing a disruption to what should be a good thorough democratic process of best practices - ero ensure the public is protected to some degree from government interference. There are some outrageous costs of medicines - I will concede that. Why penalize the public, for a pharmaceutical issue?
Marcia| 8.13.09 @ 4:53PM
Actongue: Guilty as charged! And thank you for graciously overlooking my digs at the Congressmen from Massachusetts, which were also mean-spirited. You are correct; it is indeed easy in this cultural climate to get caught up in it. My apologies.
Please provide evidence, or cite sources, for your statement "The Facts are though that in most Countries in Europe and including Canada have an overall better health care system where people pay less and get more" I will stipulate that, in countries where socialized medicine is the norm, people pay less for their medical coverage (although they pay more, indirectly, through higher taxes). However, can you back up the statement that they "get more" with evidence? Thank you.
Sharon| 8.13.09 @ 4:55PM
I apologize for my premature postings without completion of sentence or thought. There seems to be a malfunction with the cursor.
At any rate, you get my drift on what I was saying?
Individual medical and health issues need to be itemized and proposals made on how to address them. This plan is too large and attempts to address things that do not need to be changed.
And finally, that man's daughter is not lying about social medicine in Europe. My father in law was in a car accident a few years ago. National health stated he would be put on the waiting list for a hip replacement. His hip was shattered and he could not walk. This would mean being bedfast for most of that time. He opted to pay for it out of his pocket and go private. The new health bill makes it cost prohibitive from a tax perspective and otherwise if you try to go private. Several senators have explained they need everyone to go with this plan, to fund it.
Wondering Mother| 8.13.09 @ 4:56PM
Sharon,
The liberals cannot and will not admit the fact that the government can't run ANYTHING efficiently. The Post Office, Medicare, Social Security, IRS, Immigration, welfare, THE STIMULAS PACKAGE and on and on and on. They just want to tell us THIS TIME will be different. This is the one time they will run a great program. We should just believe them and shut up.
Aaron| 8.13.09 @ 4:58PM
Folks, I think we are all getting spun up on the fact that Republicans and Democrats do not see eye to eye on a Health Care reform plan. Isn't that kind of the point? If the voice of the people cannot be sounded from either side of the party line, then we have issues beyond imagination in our country. "Death Panels" or "No Death Panels", I personally don't believe government should inject itself into the finest quality of health care in the world any more than it already has. We all agree that the costs associated with health care are rising and we need to control those costs, but at what expense to the quality of care we are willing to receive in return. Nobody will argue that every man, woman and child that calls themselves a citizen of the US should be able to find affordable health care. From what I've read this plan will do nothing more than drive us further into the red and grow the size of government exponentially. I would like to believe those who say, "no it won't", but I need hard evidence to believe it, and so far all I hear is "talk". As a Republican I would willingly support legislation that made sense in regards to health care; but, I think we have larger issues to deal with like Social Security, Stabilizing a large region in the middle east, Helping the Homeless, Gas Prices, and driving down our National Debt so that our children can have a stable future of government. We also need to limit or get rid of AMT and down size government to only those programs that "work". A friend of mine said something the other day that I will end with. He said, "We wouldn't be in this debate if we hadn't stopped eating an apple a day"! I think that is more true than we may ever know.
GeorgianAndFree| 8.13.09 @ 5:03PM
Liberal Reader,
Apparently you don't anyone on a current government program. Voluntary things are not so voluntary.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 5:05PM
Sharon..
I believe that you are referring to this
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes you get
There was a mass email sent out by somone that created a bunch of lies based on snippets taken from the page in question and even different pages.
I did some research based on the at the time current bill and there was no such thing as suggested by the email .........i assume its the same email you got or similiar
one of the things that i did some research on was the ones page 58/59
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 your banks accounts 4 electronic. funds transfer
there is nothing there about access to an individual/citizens bank account
The bill even states
`(b) Limitations on Use of Data- Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the use of information collected under this section in a manner that would adversely affect any individual.
`(c) Protection of Data- The Secretary shall ensure (through the promulgation of regulations or otherwise) that all data collected pursuant to subsection (a) are--
`(1) used and disclosed in a manner that meets the HIPAA privacy and security law (as defined in section 3009(a)(2) of the Public Health Service Act), including any privacy or security standard adopted under section 3004 of such Act; and
`(2) protected from all inappropriate internal use by any entity that collects, stores, or receives the data, including use of such data in determinations of eligibility (or continued eligibility) in health plans, and from other inappropriate uses, as defined by the Secretary.'.
gert| 8.13.09 @ 5:14PM
Gonna be a revolution.
Valerie| 8.13.09 @ 5:15PM
MOR,
"WOW! Why all the irrelevant venom? Makes me not-so-proud to be an American."
Normally, I would agree with you MOR, but we are talking about the end of America as we know it - the end of individual liberty and the beginning of the government's control of the smallest details of our lives. This is serious, MOR; not an irrelevant, academic debate. I view people pushing this bill as nothing less than enemies of my freedom. Wars have been fought for less provocation.
I agree with you that the Universal Healthcare bill will be 10x worse than what's wrong with current insurance. I think our current insurance business model is the antithesis of a free market. It's not that I favor the status quo, but the Universal Healthcare bill will just do more of what is already wrong.
First, it's too expensive to buy insurance on your own, so you have to get it through your employer. This inhibits choice and competition. The insurance company isn't accountable to the individual customer, but only to the company he works for. At least there is some accountability - but the government will be accountable to no one, not even to a profit motive. This is the same government who has run out of money for Social Security, folks. When individual investors over the same time period have earned 12% on average on their investments.
We have already had a government takeover this year of the banking and auto industries. The media has willingly jumped on the bandwagon, and now the government want to evaluate the efficacy of our medical care and dole it out to us. If this passes, America is no longer a free country.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 5:23PM
Thanks for the input on your father in law Sharon. Hope he is doing good now.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
in terms of bang for the buck it is best expressed in terms of GDP
2008, health care spending in the United States reached $2.4 trillion, and was projected to reach $3.1 trillion in 2012.1 Health care spending is projected to reach $4.3 trillion by 2016.1
Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.3
In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017.1
Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.3
Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
WHO now lists the United states as the country with the highest amount of gdp yet not all are insured.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 5:32PM
Social security is not a hard fix
The problem is that while the cap for Social security has not changed in relative terms to inflation. The fix in simple terms is to change it so it adjusts with inflation.
We should also go back to buying Fire insurance for our homes.
If you hate paying taxes then you do not get Fire insurance
For those that do not paying taxes that go to fire insurance then if we unfortuantly have a fire at our home but if you are the neighbour and your house catches fire you are out of luck and you do not have insurance for the fire department to put it out.
Damn those fire departments and socialism
Cindy D. Elliott| 8.13.09 @ 5:38PM
I am in the medical field, and this whole thing makes me sick!!!!!! God help our Nation. I saw Michele M. on The View and she held her own, I fear for Glenn Becks life, and I trust and love Sarah Palin. I keep all of the whistle blowers in my prayers daily. I'm sure if there is flagging being done on FaceBook, I've been flagged!!!! What can we do to help, other than donations? I would love to get a Town Hall meeting here in Terre Haute, In.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 5:44PM
Michelle malkin is hot but thats it she maybe intelligent but she is delusional
Sarah palin is just a compelete and utter moron
Beck well he is just plain pathetic
Hope you take time to research what fools those three are along with Rush Limpaugh and that yellow mustard eating Hannity
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 5:51PM
How can you complain about flagging and Facebook>?
Sarah's Page is Censored and if anyone says anything about sarah even if its true and Jim Bakker Virginia ridgerunner (believe I got his name right) and the rest of the lemmings do not like it you are prevented from posting on there since they Block you.
The flagging is already being done but its by Sarah and her lemmings
(Cons for palin just deletes the majority of the Sarah truths if they do not like it.)
Valerie| 8.13.09 @ 5:58PM
@Actongue,
What was that? I need a diagram for that first sentence about Social Security. Subject, verb, direct-object - anyone? And the next sentence... Adjust for inflation? That's your idea of a fix?
Fire insurance? I do buy property insurance; fire damage is covered, among other things. It's cool, to because I can choose from among many insurance providers and I don't have to go through my employer OR the government. Costs are reasonable - gotta love that free market!
Is it your contention that community fire departments are examples of socialism? With that reasoning (and I will point to how "simple" a reasoning it is), then any sort of organized activity is socialist. Conservatives aren't anarchists, Actongue. Try not to get confused.
AnotherMike| 8.13.09 @ 6:02PM
For HELLO and others. Your statics are only have right. When adjusted for accidents the U.S. has the greatest life expectancy. Half Truths are just like lies when used to get a point across.
When will we get off of this subject and wake up to the fact that the insurance laws and regulations are a major part of the problem. I wonder if the Insurance PACs had anything to do with adjusting state and federal laws to insure the highest rate with the lowest benefits state by state.
Did you know that in one city shipping workers get a lower rate than hospitality workers. And sometime hospitality workers pay 3x the premium for less insurance.
Why not set rate based on national risk tables and allow free competition between states for insurance companies.
Maybe we could have catastrophic federal coverage to lower premiums?
This blog is like the others... name calling, warfare between the parties but no suggested solutions. Pathetic. Totally focused on Red Herrings!!!
Everett Bennett | 8.13.09 @ 6:04PM
HR3200 is the next "tax" that you will see on your payroll stub! Remember, only the Rich will pay! Within 20 years, everyone will be paying a PayRoll Tax like Medi, Fica.....When all is said and done, you will be paying for Bad Health Care based on Race, Persuasion (GAY/HETERO), Color, Illegal/Legal. Get it! Only the rich will pay!
Screwed yet again by the Communist Socialist who have taken over our Government!
Revolution II
Conservative Reader| 8.13.09 @ 6:10PM
Dear Liberal Reader,
Your vulgarity, rudeness and obtuseness are annoying. Please be quiet. Grown ups are trying to talk here.
FYI, in the conservative view of reality (the more accurate one btw) the word "government" is a noun that describes the act of governing and the issue is not whether the individuals or collectives doing the governing are idealized or not (and you'be got your left and right confused on the matter of who does the idealizing generally) but whether the governing is good or bad, whether it is one individual governing themselves, or a host of them governing everyone else. Of course you'd have to know what good and bad are to begin with before you could understand the concept.
cheers,
Conservative Reader
Janice| 8.13.09 @ 6:15PM
Oddly enough cuba does have a slightly higher breast cancer rate. As to why it would be interesting to find out.
--------
Probably because they have a higher breastfeeding rate.
Breastfeeding (using boobs for what the were intended for) LOWERS the chance of getting breast cancer.
Selfcare| 8.13.09 @ 6:17PM
Why can't we just take care of the uninsured? Why do 300 million people need to change their healthcare for the sake of 40 million. 20 million of which are illegals and not entitled to healthcare here. I don't want to pay for them! Then there are those who can afford healthcare and choose not to buy it, I don't want to pay for them! Put all those with pre-existing conditions into their own pool and get a group discount! Allow us to purchase health insurance like car insurance across state lines! Why do we have to wreck our healthcare system for the minority?
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 6:19PM
Valerie
It was a simplified version of what has been proposed by some. Raise the rate to roughly 175k to 200k instead of its present 102k
In the early years people would have to buy fire insurance in order to have the fireman put out the fire.
If you did not have fire insurance then you were SoL and had the fire burn your house down even if you were next to the one burning.
Later it was realized for the quality of life for Everyone that "Fire Insurance" was not the right way to go and it was incorporated into property tax
The same holds true for Health insurance for everyone.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 6:22PM
Janice
thanks for that info:}
Why then do not more ladies do that if its proven to reduce breast cancer?
selfcare| 8.13.09 @ 6:28PM
Actongue,
I'll take Hannity, Beck, Palin, Coulter, Crowley,
Greta, Rush, and Levin over Matthews (tinlge up my leg), Cooper, Couric, Pelosi, Reid, Biden, Rangle, Frank and Dodd (dump Dodd 2010) Any day of the week!
selfcare| 8.13.09 @ 6:31PM
Actongue,
Even if the fireman puts out the fire, you need the fire insurance to be able to replace it. Just like the Emergency Room has to treat you if you show up there, but you still need your health insurance to pay the bill!!!!
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 6:32PM
Ah you left out Olbermann
Cant blame you since he uses common sense
Why would u want to believe the lies people like Beck and Rush spew?
Palin could not even help out her own citizens of Alaska and if it was not for others then finally a charity stepping up even parnell admitted that they would not have been able to do much for them.
Walt Monegan even informed Palin that there were going to be issues with the residents and citizens of SW alaska but she chose to ignore him because she did not care.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 6:34PM
Selfcare
/Facepalm
You unwittingly explained why Healthcare needs to be fixed in your last remarks.
Kay F. James | 8.13.09 @ 6:35PM
I found an article co-authored by Dr. Ezekial J Emanuel on line. He is the brother of Obama's Chief of Staffe R. Emanuel. This article appeared in the Medical journal, "The Lancet" Jan 31, 2009, vol 373. Title: " PRINCIPLES FOR ALLOCATION OF SCARCE MEDICAL INTERVENTIONS".
I suggest you read it. One cannot draw a total conclusion but it hits at the reality that could be imposed. www.thelancet.com or one can do a search by title and author...........then compare it to H.B. 3200 u can find on the Library of congress web site........On news last evening it was said that there are three different universal health care bills on the hill. How can anyone know what they are dealing with.......agree something needs to be done about health care, but let us begin with what is broke, ie; Medicare, Medicaid and the Insurance companies who consistently delay payments on insurance claims or totally deny them.
I think too many people in America have become use to "the gimee factor without becoming responsible with/for use of it". One of the biggest cost of health care or those who run to ER for care rather then address issue during physcians regular office hours or going to a walk in clinic.
I believe in giving help where and when needed but the problem is too many seem to loose their iniative to seek a way to better care and do things.
~Tari| 8.13.09 @ 6:41PM
Well, the ranting goes on and on. What I don't understand is, how it is that, rational people rant and rant at someone who's post is 50 pages away and isn't even responding anymore.
I would prefer to go the route of peace and harmony rather than ranting and raving. And so this means that I CHOOSE to see the glass half full and NOT half empty. This means, for those of you that simply cannot understand, that I refuse to run with Chicken Little or believe that the sky is falling!!
angry gerbil| 8.13.09 @ 6:47PM
the problem AMERICA has is the INSANITY and DEMENTED thinking of LEFT WING LIBERALS in the democratic party. They have lost so many brain cells with their immoral life styles of drugs and hate, they think they are the only ones who are living in planet earth. The solution is FOR ALL OF US who don't belong to neither party to FIGHT at all cost the FASCISM and DECEPTION of the LEFT WING LIBERAL PSYCHOS doing all they can to divide the country and destroy it from within. These fools are so pompous and self righteous, they BLAME everyone but themselves for their SICK THINKING AND SICK IDEOLOGIES! A civil war against the left wing wackos is the solution to your HEALTHCARE problem. The more of them OUT OF THIS EARTH, the less healthcare costs we have to worry about. LIBERALS are suicidal and INSANE!
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 6:55PM
Angry Gerbil
It is obvious by your ranting and extreme use of Caps that you are in need of your meds
I hope that you do not pay too much for them and if you do it is quite understandable why you are so Angry right now but your anger is misplaced and should be put on the current inadequate health care system we have in this country.
The insurance company you have must have also denied you coverage for your condition.
kRISTI| 8.13.09 @ 6:57PM
Wow. Reading over all this information about Obama and the "death panel" reviews in his new Obamacare program reminded me just now...of the movie "Logan's RUn". Is this what is to come? When you reach a certain age - thats it you get canned.
Summary of the movie: In the 23rd century, the survivors of a holocaust now lives within a domed city that is sealed off from the outside world. In the domed city, men and women live in a society where you can only live until you are 30-years old (due to population control and limited resources), the people have two choices: They can either take part in a extermination ceremony called "Carousel" where they are promised of being reborn or they can go on the run and escape to outside the domed city.
And let us not forget the Bible and Revelations and the Left Behind series that was all the rage a few years ago. The anti-christ will be a man in his 40's of Muslim descent, who will decieve the nations with persuassive language, and have a massive Christ-like appeal...the prophecy says people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace and when he is in power will destroy everything......
Scary.....
Rosemary| 8.13.09 @ 7:06PM
I agree with Sarah Palin, The american people need to wake up and stand up for our country, we are all going to be in serious trouble if the Pres. plan goes thru.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 7:08PM
Rosemary and others
Palin lied to you
She was also for End of life couseling before she was against it
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:_qjXL_3J08EJ:www.eeo.state.ak.us/archive-50122.html+"HEALTHCARE+DECISIONS+DAY"+palin&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
"WHEREAS, as a result of April 16, 2008, being recognized as Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, more citizens will have conversations about their healthcare decisions; more citizens will execute advance directives to make their wishes known; and fewer families and healthcare providers will have to struggle with making difficult healthcare decisions in the absence of guidance from the patient.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, Sarah Palin, Governor of the state of Alaska, do hereby proclaim April 16, 2008, as:
Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, and I call this observance to the attention of all our citizens."
She changes her mind which is her right but she should only change her mind when it is for the better not because it is "Politically expedient" or to cause..................False lies and from there fear.
That is one reason why she is intellectually inept and incapable of ever holding a high position.
Deanna| 8.13.09 @ 7:17PM
Lib. Reader,
"You understand, of course, that Medicare is a single payer, government run health care system, I assume."
That is understood and is exactly the reason I am against it.
"If your mother is old enough, she has Medicare, and it's far more trustworthy than private health insurance -- believe me."
Yes, she is, and she does. That is precisely WHY it is not trustworthy.
"Medicare has no profit motive: it does not view your mother's health costs as cutting into its profits."
Medicare may have no profit motive, but the physicians in our city do. It is extremely difficult to find a physician in this city (Anchorage, AK) who will take Medicare patients because they LOSE MONEY on these patients. Lots of money. And because of Medicare rules, even if my parents wanted to pay out of pocket to see they physician of their choice, THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO by the system. This is NOT a system I want for myself or my children.
"That's what PRIVATE insurance does.
It sees any expenditure on YOUR health as ONLY a loss of profit."
I'm sorry, but in view of the above, problems with private insurers are minor compared to the problems my parents have had finding health care due to restrictive Medicare rules. The "Medicare solution" is far worse in my mind than any nefarious insurance co. profit motive.
"Think about it, Deanna."
Yes sir!! Been thinkin' plenty!
"In the private system, you PAY a company to HIRE people to figure out a way to DENY you coverage if you get sick.
Is that what you want?"
As a nurse who worked doing hospital Utilization Review for a season, I've been in the thick of the fight to get insurance co's to pay for extra hospital days. As the mother of a critically infant in 1995, I was grateful for every penny our COBRA paid and have been grateful for what our current ins. continues to pay.
I am especially grateful that under the current system, I have control of my own health care decisions.
Howard Wolcott| 8.13.09 @ 7:21PM
Liberal Reader perhaps you should study this better . After all your life is on the line either .
Wally Sandaber| 8.13.09 @ 7:37PM
First, the level of discussion here far surpasses any conservative website I have visited. But it still is filled with people with a irrational sense of deep fear. Fear of elected politicians. Fear of government employees. Fear of doctors or health experts who support the President's bill. The fear seems to spring from listening to media talking heads known for ..... fear mongering. The fear though is never, ever accompanied by a citation or link.
This fear rings familar. There was fear about Medicare, Social Security, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and of the National Environmental Policy Act. Those fears about progressive change were the same as I see here - government officials would interfere with our lives. Businesses would go under. Our medical care and schools would become much worse. Individuals would lose autonomy somehow. But of course, this didn't happen. After 150 years of capitalism without these programs, the U.S. progressed. But since these programs were established, the U.S. has become wealthier, healthier and more efficient at a faster rate. Progressive change is not easy and it has a lot of bumps along the way but it does improve our quality of life. That is, after we stop fearing it.
Maria1234| 8.13.09 @ 8:44PM
If you take into account aaccidental deaths and omicides when tabulating the life expectancy of the US vs. other countries, we jump from #15 to #1, with #1 having the longest life. Great post on this here: http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2009/07/per-capita-spending-and-life-expectancy.html
Jerry| 8.13.09 @ 9:09PM
I'm not about to get into an argument about who said what and who means what. To me its quite simple. The government just set up a cash for clunkers program funded at 1 billion. They screwed it up and now have added 2 billion more to fix their mistake. That program was rushed through. Does anybody out there honestly believe that a government run health care program which starts in the trillions and is rushed through will not end up costing us exponentially more than the original estimate?
When you hire someone for a job, many times it is based on past performance. Does the past performance of this administration lead anyone to believe that the health care proposal will not be a complete and total failure and require more trillions to fix? I think, if this debate is to continue, and if there are merits to a gov't run health care system, we need to take our time utilizing experts and not politicians to develop and implement one. When things are rushed through too many mistakes are made - as we have all seen. We simply cannot afford this type governance anymore.
PALIN FOR PRESIDENT 2012| 8.13.09 @ 9:19PM
It doesn't matter what the Axelrod astroturf trolls say--ObamaCare is dead and Sarah Palin helped kill it.
Democrats are going to take a beating in 2010 and I am going to help defeat them.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 9:22PM
Palin is a joke and will never make it to presidency.
how anyone can support a quitter and a liar is really remarkable
Richard Baker| 8.13.09 @ 9:28PM
Wally:
If you want the source of our distrust, by all means, do read the Declaration of Independence,
the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers. Liberty and Freedom are what's important, not government. Read.
Mike Hayhoe| 8.13.09 @ 10:11PM
Town Hall meeting in my town Saturday. Was secudled for the 23rd...............well Dems can't hide by changeing locations and time............The local newspaper hasn't eeven published the change yet! The radio station and this post did. Isn't the press suppose to inform, not Hide
Loebsack Changes Meeting Location
Saturday, August 15th
3:30 PM Burlington
Southeastern Community College-Building 100, Room 123, Lecture Room
1500 W. Agency Rd., West Burlington
I'll be there
annie for Palin| 8.13.09 @ 10:13PM
GREAT JOB Gov. Palin - keep your voice out there!! How anyone could support obama's rationed hell-th care is beyond me!
annie for Palin| 8.13.09 @ 10:16PM
The sen. in my district sherrod brown announced after 5pm one evening that he would hold a town hall meeting the next morning at 10am. Brown is one lousy piece of crap!
Rob| 8.13.09 @ 10:16PM
Can anyone tell me clearly and succinctly, why Senators and Representatives from the US Congress are unwilling to give up their taxpayer funded health care program for the healthcare program they're trying to shove down our throats? I doubt those pushing for its' adoption can muster a decent argument about this.
Mike | 8.13.09 @ 10:16PM
From what I have gathered, proponents of healthcare “reform”, Republicans and Democrats alike seem to be saying that healthcare is a right. I would like to respectfully disagree and detail my disagreement. In the Bill of Rights, as well as throughout the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth amendments, with the exception of the right to an attorney when a person is charged with a crime (whose exception lies in the principle that the state is the one leveling the charges), every one of those rights has one thing in common: they are all non-material in nature. The right to speak freely, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to be free from soldiers living in your home, the right to be secure in your persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, etc. these rights describe a nature of humanity which cannot be provided or taken away by any government, and if there is a government which believes that these qualities exist it its expense, then said government has no business existing in the first place. That the rights I have mentioned above have been equated to a product and a service that must be provided by other people is why I have taken offense, and why I write this letter today. It is because of this equation that I fear will result ultimately in the death of the both.
For what it’s worth, the proponents of this plan charge its opponents of unfair tactics, fear mongering, and of things, that, if the Bush administration had accused its opponents of, these very same people would charge censorship. The risks themselves of anything like this happening are simply too great, and we cannot proceed with this out of the simple fear of creating our own worst nightmare.
Constitution Lady| 8.13.09 @ 10:19PM
The Obama admin/DNC/? is advertising/soliciting on Craigslist and offering to pay people $600.00 per weeek to go out and to these town halls and 'promote' Obama's health care reform!!!! Of course there are no plants, schills or activists agitating these meetings. That is why a Conservative Black man handing out conservative bumper stickers at a town hall meeting over this past weekend was beaten up by Black men wearing the purple SEIU t-shirts and shouting at the conservative man "what the F*** kind of N**** are you anyway?"
The conservative black man has every right to hand out bumper stickers for a cause or political party or bill or policy that he believes in just as anyone from a differing political belief has. NO ONE should have to endure physical harm and injury because they are different. The liberals are VERY liberal with everything except your liberty.
Our Republic cannot stand for the people, if the people do not stand for the republic.
The road to serfdom is always paved with good pretentions.
'how anyone can support a liar is really remarkable' .........Millions supported and voted for Obama didn't they??? This is the most corrupt Government EVER!!!!!!!
Palin is a joke and will never make it to presidency.
She has more executive experience than Obama and any of his cronies that he has appointed and she is more honest than any of them on Capital Hill could ever dream to be! Obama has NOT run even so much as a lemonade stand. Hell, he is a career campaigner and he is still in campaign mode. He has NO clue how to govern!!!!
The Health Care what ever the final shape that is passed, is all about money and power!! Nothing more!!! And he already has people looking into how to get around the constitution so that he can stay in power beyond two terms......Can anyone say Hugo Chavez????
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 10:46PM
How can improving the United States make it corrupt?
Chrysler was a joke of a company and ruined itself due to the Big Car mentality the same with Ford and Chevy.
Palin has experience ion how to hire a City Adminstrator to do her job for her in Wasilla and how to quit as Governor
She has experience talking to Foreign head of States as an airhead and a bimbo but thats it.
Oh yea
She can see Russia from land in Alaska WOW that really qualifies her.
She does not even know who is in charge of Canada the country that bordered her.
You may have intelligence Constitution lady now please use it and quit listening to the crap spewed by Rush and beck and that yellow mustard eating Hannity:}
Basil Plumley| 8.13.09 @ 11:04PM
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 1:21PM
@ Hello
Facts along with logic and common Sense are not the "New Republicans Strong points.
They have to distort and twist the truth and lie.
The Facts are that Universal health care is good For America and Americans
Free market in terms of Health care does not work hence why we need to change what we have now.
The so called Death panel is already in place but its put there by the insurance companies and Big pharma.
Sorry chump---you probably forgot to read the latest news from DC. It appears that the phantom "death panels" were just dropped from the bill.
Perhaps, you can explain to the world how one drops something that wasn't there to begin with.
Perhaps after 24+ posts you may want to try the truth at least once. It will do good for your soul.
Finance Committee to drop end-of-life provision
By Michael O'Brien
Posted: 08/13/09 02:21 PM [ET]
The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday.
The committee, which has worked on putting together a bipartisan healthcare reform bill, will drop the controversial provision after it was derided by conservatives as "death panels" to encourage euthanasia.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/finance-committee-to-drop-end-of-life-provision-2009-08-13.html
Basil Plumley| 8.13.09 @ 11:13PM
@ Actongue
She has experience talking to Foreign head of States as an airhead and a bimbo but thats it.
Oh yea
She can see Russia from land in Alaska WOW that really qualifies her.
She does not even know who is in charge of Canada the country that bordered her.
You collossal jewel of ignorance; we are discussing Sarah Palin, not Tina Fey. If Tina Fey were running for anything, you may have a point.
Then again, you probably thought Martin Sheen was one hell of a President.
What is really sad is that you qualify to vote. You and your fellow ignoramuses have nowhere else to go but lie.
doc| 8.13.09 @ 11:16PM
I understand all of the comments that I have read here tonight. A few things though; If the government, as great as it is, has shown us time and time again that they cannot nor willnot control thier own foolish spending; well then, since the infrastructure is broke, medicare is broke,states are laying off police officers and cutting pay on others since they are short of federal funding; Just how in the hell or why would we want to stand behind a president and his commrades' who want to start a new program that we cannot afford,they don't understand themselves, will pave the way to socializm, and that the majority of the american citizens do not want? Oh, I forgot; It's OBAMANATION. Have fun folks and enjoy the downhill slide. See ya at the bottom. I'll be the one hiding the open beer.
Nicole Green| 8.13.09 @ 11:22PM
Is this even constitutional? For the government to take over 1/6 of the economy? I do not want to give up any of my freedom.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 11:22PM
I am well aware of the change that was made today to the bill.
The fact remains though that it was taken out solely to appease the fools that actually believed the lies that have been spread about it.
If you actually read that portion of the bill it did not talk about having people die off due to age or lack of non productivity.
It was there to solely help people make informed decisions.
Now why don't you take the time to really learn what Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel was discussing
It is rather lengthy but u will find that it does not talk about a so called "Death Panel" or ending life.
It talks about how difficult the decision is that is already in place about who gets kidney transplants to vaccinnes
It discusses the different methods from lottery to saving lives to first come first serve.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18280675/Principles-for-Allocation-of-Scarce-Medical-Interventions
the page does not allow a copy and paste so have to physically copy and paste the link in the web browser
What has happened is some people have taken snippets from different sections and pages on the article and copy and pasted it to create a negative of what truely when read makes you understand and appreciate even more the hard decisions that are taken to decide who gets what.
doc | 8.13.09 @ 11:28PM
At least I can rest assured that even though we'll all be broke and scared to goto the hospital in 2012, Obama will only be a 1 term president. HooRah!
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 11:32PM
Basil
Sadly you are Mistaken but that is of course not hard to believe since you do not even know anything about the person you Support
Sarah Said (her own Words)
GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?
PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.
Fact
From Little Diomedes in Alaska you can See Big Diomedes which is in Russia.
Fact
Tina fey did the Parody about seeing russia from her house.
Fact
You have no idea what you are talking about and its apparent you do not know much about Sarah either.
Actongue| 8.13.09 @ 11:37PM
Link to Sarah and in her own words Since its ABC You may not believe it but there is Video too of her saying it.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=5782924&page=2
Palin has no experience as I said other then talking and acting like a Bimbo and an airhead
Fact
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palin-prankcall.htm
Video link is there too
AVENGERS: I just want to be sure. That phenomenon Joe the Plumber. That's not your husband, right?
PALIN: That's not my husband but he's a normal American who just works hard and doesn't want government to take his money.
AVENGERS: Yes, yes, I understand we have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France. It's called Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit.
PALIN: Right, that's what it's all about, the middle class and government needing to work for them. You're a very good example for us here.
AVENGERS: I see a bit about NBC, even Fox News wasn't an ally as much as usual.
PALIN: Yeah, that's what we're up against.
AVENGERS: Gov. Palin, I love the documentary they made on your life. You know Hustler's Nailin' Paylin?
PALIN: Ohh, good, thank you, yes.
AVENGERS: That was really edgy.
PALIN: Well, good.
This was not a 2-3 word Gaffe...........)Gaffes are one of the best part of the Elections no matter who makes them :} )
Nor is it a 20 second discourse on a topic
This is Six minutes of sheer Stupidty and brainlessness. they Gave her 2-3 clues a minute and unlike others that they have pranked .........Sarah remained Clueless till the end
They felt sorry for her so told her it was a prank call but could have gone on if they wanted.
Pingback| 8.13.09 @ 11:51PM
The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Palin Is Not Wrong – The Facebook News links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Realist| 8.13.09 @ 11:51PM
Folks, Liberal Reader and Actongue are simply trolls. Ignore them and their misinformed ramblings...
Baldylocks| 8.13.09 @ 11:56PM
I think it was Octongue that said that free market health care doesn't work. Well, as long as we can't access health insurance across state lines, we really don't have "free market" health care. And yes, most socialized medicine plans make you wait for anything but life threatening illness or while you are waiting for treatment it becomes life-threatening. Such a deal. As to life expectancy and health of the citizens, the person from Oregon is right. It has more to do with lifestyle and diet than medical insurance plans. How many super obese people do you see in Vietnam?
Basil Plumley| 8.13.09 @ 11:59PM
@ Actongue
It's a shame you did not read the entire Gibson and Couric interviews. If you had, you would have realized that much of what was left on the cutting room floor made Palin seem quite reasonable.
It's also a shame that you have to resort to prank phone calls to prove your shrinking point. Good Lord, if that is the best you can do in light of all the faux pas made by Obama and Biden, that says more about you than Palin.
How's that AARP endorsement going?
It's also a shame that you resort to razzle dazzle nonsense instead of addressing the aspects of the bill.
You and your ilk say it wasn't in there but they took out the offending section. Behold the power of Palin!!
Your next post will be your 29th on this thread. I hope it will be a good one.
self care| 8.14.09 @ 12:13AM
Actongue
Sarah said: "more citizens will have conversations about their healthcare decisions; more citizens will execute advance directives to make their wishes known; and fewer families and healthcare providers will have to struggle with making difficult healthcare decisions in the absence of guidance from the patient. "
How dense are you? She is saying the patient should have advance directives and living wills and not leave the decision to other?
Obama lied when he said he wasn't for a single payor program. He was for it in 2006 before he was against it!
Actongue| 8.14.09 @ 12:17AM
Basil
I was responding directly to your post in regards to the Tina Fey Comment you made. Not to the whole of the Interview. If I would have said she as an "airhead throughout the interview I would be wrong but since we were discussing that one Aspect. To of course which you could not make any response other then I am right.
Secondly
It is not suprising that you defend Sarah during a Six minute interview where she comes across clueless.
Any sane logical thinker would admit that she atleast was not quite altogether..........Maybe she was giddy/ecstatic due to having the President of France calling her which would be most peoples initial reaction to such a situation.
However, Given the abundant clues and hints that it was not Sarkozy she should have at some point said something which is what others have done after a minute or two after finding it was a prank call.
If you actually listen to it you may find (If you have an open mind) that she does come across as a little ditzy and giggles and laughs way to much.
In regards to the AARP and the endorsement
AARP does not currently support this version of the Bill but they do want support the plan to fix the system we currently have.
Actongue| 8.14.09 @ 12:31AM
So you are either advocating that the person you think is good can change their mind but the other person can't or better yet we can both say that given the circumstances they both can change their mind :}
Why though would Sarah be against the exact same thing she was advocating just over a year ago?
Page 427 of 3200 had the same basic clauses in it that AS 13.52.030 has in it.
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title13/Chapter52/Section030.htm
Now the argument could be made that the wording was too ambiquous and needed clarification of HR 3200 would be accurate.
Monet -a Conservative American| 8.14.09 @ 12:44AM
You CAN tell a "tree by it's fruit."
Let's quickly review a few of the very well known US goverment progams.
Let's see. The U S Postal service is financially broken. It's been broke so many times before.
As I have heard in the past that the US goverment actually has only 2 domestic mandates. One is to "guard our borders". And the other is to "deliver the mail".
Do we want to judge our governments performance on those 2 points or do we need more?
Social Security. One of the world's largest panzi schemes. It's financially broken as well. Who do we put in prison for that mess?
Medicare and Medicade are financially broke.
Are these the folks that we want to trust to provide us health care?
By the way, how's FannyMae and FreddieMac doing.
And who do we have to thank. Liberal jackasses - also known as Democrats. And of course the "reach across the isle" Rinos. And how can I conclude without mentioning all of our friends and neighbors with their heads stuck in the sand, that vote these idiots into office or that don't vote at all.
We can listen to all of their fine sounding arguments and great speeches, but this I know.
You DO NOT pick apples off of oak trees, no matter who tells you that you can.
Like I said earlier. You can tell a tree by it's fruit.
Please go to wimp.com and view the "most watched video". I am confident that you will be blessed and educated by this short video.
Basil Plumley| 8.14.09 @ 1:26AM
@ Actongue
Were you this upset when the Estate Tax was named the "Death Tax"?
I understand that if you look in the entire IRS Code, you will not find one citation or law concerning the "Death Tax".
But no, since Sarah Palin used the term "Death Panels", the Left unleashes it cacophony of calumny to discredit her.
When it is pointed out that the offending passage was taken out of the bill, we are treated to prank phone calls as proof of Palin's incompetence.
Yet, you show indifference to the lies spoken by Obama and the ineptness of Joe Biden.
The Left used to be challenging; with folks like you carrying the banner, there really isn't much of a challenge. Think about that in your predictible vapid response (#31).
PALIN FOR PRESIDENT 2012| 8.14.09 @ 1:32AM
Obama is a joke and a one term wonder. The stooge can't even give a speech without his constant lies.
47% approval rating and dropping like a stone. Obama will be ripe pickings for Sarah in 2012!
Sarah's two words killed ObamaCare--Long live Sarah Palin our North Star!
Actongue| 8.14.09 @ 1:44AM
Mr. Plumley, I humbly beg your forgiveness for my vicious lies and petty untruths about the beautiful, brilliant Sarah Palin. You see, as a liberal beta male I am unsure of my masculinity and as a result of my neutered male status I must attack strong, principled and lovely conservative women such as Sarah, our next president of the U.S.
I like thick legged liberal women like Hillary Clinton--damn, that girl gives me the hots. I am an Axelrod astroturf troll whore who sold my soul to the devil long ago. Pity me for I have no heart or conscience, and lying is a second language for me (like most liberals).
Best, Actongue
Patriot| 8.14.09 @ 1:45AM
Actongue just wet itself. LOL
AnotherMike| 8.14.09 @ 2:49AM
@Actongue
It appears rules 6, 8 and 12 apply to your blogs. But you need to re-read and learn rule 7. Our Republic is sacred and your desire to grow government moves us closer to any "ism" or "ship". Why are liberal so intent on making our country like all the rest. Have you check immigration statics to see where people of the world want to migrate. Maybe you should step back and realize the freedoms you want to remove are also the very freedoms that allow to think and believe as you do.
linda | 8.14.09 @ 4:13AM
"The group Compassion & Choices, formerly known as the Hemlock Society, also says it had a hand in crafting Section 1233, writing July 27: 'Compassion & Choices has worked tirelessly with supportive members of Congress to include in proposed reform legislation a provision requiring Medicare to cover patient consultation with their doctors about end-of-life choice (section 1233 of House Bill 3200),'" she wrote.
Pingback| 8.14.09 @ 6:02AM
End-of-Life Provision Excluded | Caffeinated Thoughts links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Actongue| 8.14.09 @ 9:46AM
Patriot
No I laughed for found it quite comical :}
It does prove though that some people, men and women alike though, do not vote or think with their brain.
Another Mike
Why are you so opposed to improving our country is the real question.
The reason being is because you and others then would have to admit that your narrow-minded view is wrong.
I wish you all a great day :}~
Wondering Mother| 8.14.09 @ 10:34AM
Actongue
There is no evidence that anything this government wants to do will IMPROVE our country. You are the narrow minded one because you refuse to even consider the possibility that the know-it-alls in Washington are not right about this issue and many others. You may be content to just take them at face value but the rest of us feel different. This issue is too important to just gloss over with stupid comments and mindless drivel. Calling names and insulting people just shows you have no facts to back you up.
"My friend pays 108 dollars a month in Canada for herself and her two kids and is based on her income. She is very happy with it and has NEVER had any issues with getting seen for herself of her Children. "
Do you really believe that ALL this women pays for health care is $108 a month? You have a simplistic view of how government works. The amount they actually BILL you is NEVER real price you will be paying. They just get it from you in ways you will never dream of.
I wonder why you are so willing to let the government run this program when they can't run any other program very well. We question your motives because no person in their right mind is that agreeable with any government program unless they stand to gain from it. Is there nothing about this government run health care utopia that disturbs you even a little?
RHarrisonScott | 8.14.09 @ 11:53AM
For what it's worth, those who demonize people do so because they can't demonize the truth.
IMHO
Constitution Lady| 8.14.09 @ 11:59AM
Actongue can only debate by insulting people!
Nicole it is not constitutional for the President to take over 1/6th of our economy which is another reason why people are upset. Obama is shredding the Constitution, usurping his authority and ignoring the Federal Gov. limitations according to the Constitution.
Obama WILL be a one term President like Jimmy Carter, only Obama will make the Carter presidency appear outstanding in comparison!
Sarah Palin was right..........so who is the real idiot now????
Also it was Tina Fey impersonating Palin that said 'she could see Russia from her house', NOT Palin!!!!
But in all truth one can see Russia from Alaska and under the right circumstance and low tide you can walk to Russia from Alaska!!
PALIN FOR PRESIDENT 2012| 8.14.09 @ 3:10PM
Liberal freaks attack Sarah Palin because they fear her. Do they freak out about Romney or Huckabee? Nooo--it's always Sarah.
Rush said we should look at the republican leader liberals attack most to know who our strongest candidate is.
Makes sense to me. Sarah drove the health care debate--from Alaska! Her leadership helped get rid of the 'death panels' in ObamaCare. Sarah Palin is a force to be reckoned with. Go Sarah!
Cathy| 8.14.09 @ 3:56PM
The conservative lies, hypocrisy, and stupidity here are both amusing and scary.
It's quite obvious that most conservatives can't tolerate a liberal opinion, despite claiming that they're for freedom of speech. They're also quick to believe anything a dimwitted Republican politician has to say without checking the facts.
For starters, the proposed health plan ISN'T mandatory. That's one fact that Republican politicians purposely ignore. It will provide health care for the millions of Americans who currently aren't insured, and will be an OPTION for those of us who already have health insurance. NO ONE will force you to go on the government plan, despite the lies your leaders have been telling you.
As for Palin and her "death panel," it's interesting to note that while she was governor of AK, over 200 seniors died because of the poorly-managed state health care program there.
http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/sarah-palin-leaving-behind-mismanaged
For those who can't handle getting the truth from that source, here's another article about it, from the Anchorage Daily News:
http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/864670.html
Apparently, Palin didn't care about the elderly dying in her own state; it was much more important for her to quit her job and focus her attention on spreading lies about President Obama's health care proposal.
Castor| 8.14.09 @ 5:00PM
By all WHO measures, the UK surpasses the US healthcare system by some margin.
End of.
The Merkan Taliban the Palin and her naive acolytes belong scare the hell out of me - making up your own propaganda along the way is just kooky.
Steve| 8.14.09 @ 8:01PM
The outrage that is going on now is mainly because Obama's "take a pill" remark inspired people to actually read the proposed bill, and they didn't like what they read. As it turns out, people gather that ANY blanket government-controlled healthcare plan is a bad idea. And they are correct. Just think about it. The government plan comes in and doesn't encourage you to give up your private healthcare, but if it's cheaper (and probably will be) then why not try it. Then, private sector insurance cannot compete and within a few years the government plan will be all that's available. Then, doctors and nurses will have their pay adjusted not based on performance, but based on a government-issued pay scale. Then, quality healthcare professionals will leave because they aren't getting the pay they deserve (and you cannot argue that doctors who spend 12 years getting educated and trained don't deserve 100k+ a year) In the end, QUALITY of healthcare will decline, because it will be a government-controlled mess. People are waking up to this.
What it boils down to is that ANYTHING the government does that takes away from the private sector is un-American, and almost guaranteed to be a disaster. Once the government runs our healthcare system, it will be the final foothold to controlling every aspect of our lives. The elites that fluff the nests of our lawmakers will have control (even MORE control than they have now), and one special interest group at a time will strip our remaining rights away, and what will be left won't be American at all.
People, the government isn't there to take care of everything. It's there to secure our borders and protect our basic rights as defined in our constitution. So that WE have the FREEDOM to take care of OURSELVES!
Oregon Engineer| 8.14.09 @ 8:12PM
There was a book by CS Lewis, in the general time frame and genre of Huxley's "1984", titled "That Hideous Strength". In the book England was being duped by an organization called the N.I.C.E. that claimed to be working for the good of mankind while in fact working to reduce and then eliminate the species (and everything else, too... great book, serious villans). N.I.C.E covered up its true purpose with impenetrable phrases and a very respectable role in society. The late 40's was an era thick with highly accurate prophets.
That the Europeans are comfortable putting their lives in the hands of such people is an inane argument for us to do the same. The Europeans in general have no interest in continuing their civilization, only in keeping it going long enough for their own lives to get through it peacefully.
The lefties are in denial if they think that government control over health care doesn't lead directly to panels of people who decide who gets access to what will always be scarce fiscal resources and who doesn't.
But the left (likely including those posting above) is not always in denial. Many have as a stated purpose the elimination of mankind from the surface of the planet, using terms like "infection" and "scourge" to describe the species. They also believe that truth is either unknowable or non-existant (which allows for straightforward lies in the service of their purpose). Combined together, these factors allow many on the left to know full well that death panels will appear, support their creation, and at the same time deny they will come into being as a way of getting them in place.
In contrast to Europe, and to the disgust and despair of the lefties, America still lives, wants to keep living, and doesn't trust its life to a bureaucracy staffed by people who want it to die.
OBAMA OUT IN 2012!| 8.14.09 @ 9:37PM
The more liberals spew their hatred and nastiness toward Sarah Palin the more popular she will become. Lies, lies, lies--all you liberals do is lie about Sarah. And everyone knows it.
Wondering Mother| 8.14.09 @ 9:45PM
"For starters, the proposed health plan ISN'T mandatory. That's one fact that Republican politicians purposely ignore. It will provide health care for the millions of Americans who currently aren't insured, and will be an OPTION for those of us who already have health insurance. NO ONE will force you to go on the government plan, despite the lies your leaders have been telling you. "
Cathy
You need to use that typical liberal drivel. Insult the inteligence of the other side and then talk down to them.
Of course it isn't manditory NOW. You are making our point for us. Private insurance cannot compete with government because government can just operate in the red. So when the private companies can no longer compete, then WE ARE ALL STUCK WITH THE GOVERNMANT PLAN. Or when our empolyers decide not to provide health insurance anymore and pay the penalty then WE ARE ALL STUCK WITH THE GOVERNMANT PLAN. (Paying the penalty is cheaper than insuring us)
We are not against insuring the UNINSURED. DO IT! INSURE THEM! GET ON WITH IT!
Allocate the money and buy them insurance. Stop writing pages and pages of stupid regulations and just INSURE PEOPLE. If they wanted to do it they could.
Tell me why the rest of us have to give up what we have just to INSURE the UNINSURED?
Someone try addressing this question instead of just telling me over and over that it will be OPTIONAL and nothing will change for me. We aren't PORPOSELY IGNORING anything. I want someone to tell me WHY any company would keep funding health insurance when they can just dump us all on the goverment?
PALIN FOR PRESIDENT 2012| 8.15.09 @ 2:10AM
WM: Just blow the liberals off. They lie.
How do you know when liberals are lying? Their lips are moving.
frank austin| 8.15.09 @ 6:59AM
Iwill never submit myslf or my money to any public plan.I and many of my small business associates are ready to close our business and stop paying taxes.We are currently networking with our investment partners to liquidate our assets,remove all monies from our banks,except for $100.dollars and let the liberals pay for their own crap.Our congress and oir president are lying and illinformed assholes.you can,t tax what you can,t find.God bless america and sarah palin,and the fox news network.
Sandra Wirth| 8.15.09 @ 7:35AM
I agree with Sarah Palin. She is one we can trust to tell us the truth and look out for the people.
Dick Head| 8.15.09 @ 2:45PM
Sarah Palin is the last hope for our great country.
Only she can restore our America to what it once was: A God-fearing republic of white, gun-toting Christains driving big American cars! God bless Sarah Palin and God bless The United States of America. Amen
Constitution Lady| 8.15.09 @ 5:19PM
"Tell me why the rest of us have to give up what we have just to INSURE the UNINSURED?"
Its called distribution of wealth. Even if you only have 200 dollars you are still wealthier than the person with 10 dollars. So the gove will take everything over 10 dollars from to and give it to those with only ten dollars. Its called socialism!!!Also, it is about control. If the gov. controls your health care they can control every aspect of your life. Why else is there a section in HR3200 about the gov. having access to your bank accounts? If you are paying into the gov. health system by way of a tax, any tax, what is the purpose of them having you account numbers? Think about it. You will be paying far more that a tax for your gov. single payer health system.
Obama himself in his own words in severeal interviews says he is a huge proponent of a single payer system. And even though HR3200 is not law YET! If any parts of that bill meld with the other two bill currently being worked on, God help us all!!!
If Obama was serious about health Care/Insurance reform than his first order of business should be to something about Torte Reform. But lets face it he is looking out for all is lawyer/ambulance chaser cronies that make millions of dollars suing the medical sector of our society!
If doctors didn't have to pay such high mal-practice insurance premiums, health care costs would be a lot cheaper. If caps were places on jury awards in mal-practice cases, health care would be alot cheaper, if frivilous law suits weren't allowed to take up court time, health care costs would be alot cheaper.
Right now there is a company Cinergy Health offering health insuracne for about the price of a Starbucks coffee per day. That's approx. 180 dollars per month at the low end. Check out their web site CinergyHealth.com, I did. They offer diferent levels of coverage on the cheap. Also what about the Wal-Marts and large drug store chains, that are offering generic prescription drugs for 3-4 dollars for a 30 day supply or 10-15 dollars for a 90 days supply. Costs and availibility are coming down but no one is out there mentioning that. What about all the 'minute' clinics popping up everywhere that offer basic medical care on the cheap? Noone mentions them either!!!
I say do something, have a safety net for the truly needy, not the illegals or those that can afford coverage but choose NOT to insure themselves or their families because they don't want to spend the money on something they think they do not need, and leave those of us who actually like our health care,pay for our health care premiums and our bills alone. I know I pay higher premiums for those uninsured that use emergency room care. But I also pay higher grocery store or clothing store prices because people steal merchandise and store owners have to cover their losses somewhere!
If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it is 'Free' under government control!!!
If this passes, once we go down this road there will be NO turning back and America as we have know it will no longer exist!
People just look at the people Obama surrounds himself with to know where he wants to eventually take this country!!! Look at his czars, google them, learn about them, Many are very dangerous men and women who do NOT have the best interst of you and this country in mind!
Constitution Lady| 8.15.09 @ 9:03PM
A Quote from Sarah Palin:
"I agree. Last year, I issued a proclamation for “Healthcare Decisions Day.” [6] The proclamation sought to increase the public’s knowledge about creating living wills and establishing powers of attorney. There was no incentive to choose one option over another. There was certainly no financial incentive for physicians to push anything. In fact, the proclamation explicitly called on medical professionals and lawyers “to volunteer their time and efforts” to provide information to the public.
Comparing the “Healthcare Decisions Day” proclamation to Section 1233 of HR 3200 is ridiculous. The two are like apples and oranges. The attempt to link the two shows how desperate the proponents of nationalized health care are to shift the debate away from the disturbing details of their bill.
See http://www.gov.state.ak.us/archive.php?id=1094&type=6
Those who insult Sarah Palin and claim that she is stupid are the ones who are stupid! You would rather lies and follow blindly the words of someone that does NOT tell you the truth!!! Your cliff is coming............too bad the rest of us may have to follow you over that cliff because of your ignorance!!
Allyn Kruse| 8.16.09 @ 2:11AM
"Liberal Lady" was saying that a repubilcan introduced a bill about doctors counseling on living wills. I just wanted to make it clear that this isn't part of the health plan that the democrats are pushing through congress. I recently attended a town hall meeting where Congressman Lewis(Redlands Ca.) said that the republicans were not allowed to even contribute to polosi's plan before it was sent to the Senate. When they asked to contribute(in committee) they were told it was already finished.
Mahone Dunbar| 8.16.09 @ 9:30AM
Of course it's not called a death panel. That's too blunt and honest for a socialist. By the same token, if the pro-slavery politicians of the 19th century had defined American slavery as "a subsistence-remunerative, foreign worker exchange training program for entry-level manual agaraian and domestic workers," no one could have complained, Right?
Somewhere, George Orwell is laughing. Herr Gerbels would feel right at home working with Pelosi, Reid and Obama. In the hands of leftists, words, and their definitions are plastic propaganda tools. It's all about what you can make the masses perceive. Unless we are up to another revolution, we are doomed.
Michael Mingoia| 8.16.09 @ 10:36AM
Will someone please tell me why we continue to have Medicare, unemployment insurance, et al...?Aren't these socialist government programs? For that matter, isn't the fire department a socialist government program as well as the police department? Public education is a MASSIVE socialist government program. And by the way, according to the constitution, Sarah Palin can't own property nor vote. Let's get back to good ol' American values.
Constitution Lady| 8.16.09 @ 11:41AM
"Will someone please tell me why we continue to have Medicare, unemployment insurance, et al...?Aren't these socialist government programs? For that matter, isn't the fire department a socialist government program as well as the police department? Public education is a MASSIVE socialist government program. Let's get back to good ol' American values."
Yep, they are all government programs that are NOT working as they made us beleive in the day when they were being pushed on us!!! So why would anyone want to trust that a Gov. health care take-over will succeed? The only thing it will succeed in doing is stripping all of us of our freedoms! Freedom of choice, speech, assembly, religion, etc. Hell, anyone that holds to Christian beliefs are already under attack and have been slowly and methodically whittled away at for decades by the left. No prayer in public schools, to no prayer in any schools, to no prayer at public events, and recently no Christian assembly in your own home as was the case a couple of months ago with a couple that held a bible study group in their own home. Everything that was good and great about this country is under attack and disappearing. Finally America is waking up and the left is scared to death of that!!
American VALUES will return when the American people accept personal responsibility for the way they live their lives. If you think a TV show like Family Guy or 2 and a half men are good and decent viewing for you and your kids, than you can't expect your kids to act respectfully and caring toward others. If they are subjected to disrespect abd rudeness by their elders, they will learn that and immitate that and grow up without compassion for others. How many of you have noticed the level of rudeness of people toward one another, and I'm not just talking about what you see on TV. How many of you have walked by a person struggling to open a door at a store and you just went thru another door and ignored the struggling person. I am disabled and it happens to me everytime I go out. Rarely is there anyboby to hold a door open, or offer to lend a hand. And disabled though I am, If I can assist someone I jump at the opportunity to offer my assistance. Maybe people are afraid to help for whatever reason, but mostly it is because they were NOT taught to be compasionate toward thier fellow citizen. And if someone does assist you in some way, large or small, a smile and a simple Thank YOU goes a long way!! Remember you will always get what you give by ten fold!!!!
Constitution Lady| 8.16.09 @ 11:41AM
"Will someone please tell me why we continue to have Medicare, unemployment insurance, et al...?Aren't these socialist government programs? For that matter, isn't the fire department a socialist government program as well as the police department? Public education is a MASSIVE socialist government program. Let's get back to good ol' American values."
Yep, they are all government programs that are NOT working as they made us beleive in the day when they were being pushed on us!!! So why would anyone want to trust that a Gov. health care take-over will succeed? The only thing it will succeed in doing is stripping all of us of our freedoms! Freedom of choice, speech, assembly, religion, etc. Hell, anyone that holds to Christian beliefs are already under attack and have been slowly and methodically whittled away at for decades by the left. No prayer in public schools, to no prayer in any schools, to no prayer at public events, and recently no Christian assembly in your own home as was the case a couple of months ago with a couple that held a bible study group in their own home. Everything that was good and great about this country is under attack and disappearing. Finally America is waking up and the left is scared to death of that!!
American VALUES will return when the American people accept personal responsibility for the way they live their lives. If you think a TV show like Family Guy or 2 and a half men are good and decent viewing for you and your kids, than you can't expect your kids to act respectfully and caring toward others. If they are subjected to disrespect abd rudeness by their elders, they will learn that and immitate that and grow up without compassion for others. How many of you have noticed the level of rudeness of people toward one another, and I'm not just talking about what you see on TV. How many of you have walked by a person struggling to open a door at a store and you just went thru another door and ignored the struggling person. I am disabled and it happens to me everytime I go out. Rarely is there anyboby to hold a door open, or offer to lend a hand. And disabled though I am, If I can assist someone I jump at the opportunity to offer my assistance. Maybe people are afraid to help for whatever reason, but mostly it is because they were NOT taught to be compasionate toward thier fellow citizen. And if someone does assist you in some way, large or small, a smile and a simple Thank YOU goes a long way!! Remember you will always get what you give by ten fold!!!!
Greg RN| 8.16.09 @ 12:05PM
I would like to know how healthcare reform morphed into a new Government run health agency. No one seems to have noticed. Tort reform, Insurance regulation reform, affordability, why the socialist agenda when there are plenty examples of government ineptness across the world and medicare-medicaid-VA messes right here. I've seen the medicare, medicaid hallways and the type of care delivered.
Peoples perspectives change when it is their loved one or themselves. And why are the people pushing this Albatross exempt from participation? Talk about FISHY
Constitution Lady| 8.16.09 @ 12:45PM
It's about Power and Money!!! A gov. run system make the gove VERY powerful over the people of the land.
All of Obama's cromies stand to make billions of dollars with this take over. One name that has his dirty hands in the health care albatross is none other tna Jeffy Immelt of the nearly bankrupt General Electric, the same Immelt that is accused of selling american weapons technology or something similar to Iran!
Thought of the Week:
The secret to happiness is Freedom.
The secret to Freedom is Courage.
Constitution Lady| 8.16.09 @ 2:14PM
"I would suggest that if you would like to increase the health of Native Americans, try letting them transfer their health benefits to anywhere they want to live. If a Native American wants to move and marry someone from off their home reservation, they are denied their treaty-established healthcare at any other reservation. I’ve seen patients that lived in another state come back to their home reservation for a few months to re-establish residency in order to have an expensive operation paid for by their benefit. Not everyone is in the position to do this, so healthcare is probably under utilized by the many Indians living off their home reservation; however, if all of a sudden you allowed healthcare portability for Native Americans, you would need to significantly increase the Indian Health Service budget."
This was a March 2009 article about how and whether the Utah Native Americans Suffer Healthcare Discrimination.
We only have to look at what OUR government has done to the Native American Indian to know what will happen toall Americans under their health care system if it passes in any form.
Kim A. Edwards| 8.17.09 @ 12:04PM
You go Sarah. Conservatives need a leader. I think it is either up to you or Newt Gingrich. No one else has the courage of their convictions. I don't have much money but if you continue to speak out, I will support you as best I can.
Kim
Kathryn Barry| 8.17.09 @ 12:54PM
I think Sarah Palin is a wonderful and refreshing influence in our society. It boggles my mind as to why and how anyone can support Obama and his Socialistic Agenda. Obama wants us to report our family and friends who have differing view points. Remember Hitler? His Youth Core did the same thing and then it bled into the communities and no one was safe from reporting to a panel of bullies.
If anyone is making dumb choices right now, i.e. drinking to excess, smoking like a chimney etc., is supporting Obamanism, they better realize that their life choices are going to impact their future health care needs and Obama wants to shut them down if his panely doesn't find them worthy of health care. God, please protect us from any and all Liberals and especially protect us from Obama and his entire Cabinet.
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