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Among the Intellectualoids
Shut Up, Cowboy
It’s not easy engaging the left in Missoula high country.
I have an amusing very part-time hobby, that being a contributor to the commentary threads of the Op-Ed columns found at NewWest.net, a website based in Missoula, Montana, and about which I’ve written before in a previous piece, “The Wicked Witch of the West.”
Despite its pretensions that it produces serious, well-balanced journalism, New West can best be described as being of the regional kneejerk Left, along with High Country News, “Headwaters News” service, and major newspapers such as the Denver Post. One irony about living in the contemporary West is that in spite of its overall conservative makeup and dependable red-state electoral base, the media landscape — with a few exceptions — is as liberal as that found on the blue state coasts. These are media entities that conservatives out here love to hate (oops — there’s that word again; the one they’re always tarring us with). The editorial page of my own “local” (it’s published 130 miles away) daily, the Idaho Falls Post Register, sometimes strikes me as so leftwing bizarre that I can’t believe it’s published in Idaho, which gave John McCain 62 percent of the vote the last November.
Most of the opinion pieces found at New West actually relate to Western issues: politics, culture and especially our endless environmental debate that involves the management of the public lands. The latter never changes. Administrations —federal, state, local — come and go, as do policy and policymakers, yet still the same parade of lawsuits by environmentalists march through the courts. The lawyers remain static. The commentary threads on these show opinion clearly delineated black or white. There is little middle ground on environmental questions.
Other pieces are of national import, lately concerning such matters as Rush Limbaugh’s infamous “I hope he fails” comments, or the recent murder of Dr. George Tiller, or the attack on the Holocaust Museum in Washington. These highlight the usual Lefty-tropes branding mainstream conservatives as evil revanchists not only obstructing the Left’s progress, but capable of violence. The recent piece on the Tiller assassination featured talking points from the Daily Kos; another “humor” piece about moving Guantanamo inmates to an empty prison in Hardin, Montana, had a photoshopped picture of uniformed Nazis with the faces of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld superimposed on them. The writer of the Limbaugh piece implored the radio host to “Kiss my a—” in its last line. All this found on a website whose mission seems to be to save the West from unenlightened , recalcitrant Westerners like those 62 percent of Idahoans who voted for McCain. There’s something for everybody at New West.
So I wade in and join the fun, taking my lumps from the Left, but always mindful of New West’s explicitly detailed commentary policy. We’ve all seen those. Please refrain from “hate speech,” profanity, etc. But New West also has a problem with good old-fashioned American sarcasm. A couple of my posts have been deleted over the last few months (that’s okay, I’m still batting over .900), and one recently when I poked fun at a piece about New West sponsoring an urban planning seminar in Boise. The smart growth guys take themselves seriously, so I interjected my support of the Obama administration’s ideas about bulldozing large portions of rust belt cities like Flint, Michigan, in order to restructure them in more green ways. I said in my post that this modus operandi might work in such western garden spots as Butte, Montana, and Idaho Falls, Idaho. Later, I returned to the thread to discover that the post had been scratched. In another post I directly inquired of the author, none other than Jonathan Weber, Publisher and CEO of New West — the great man himself — as to why I’d been scratched. The next morning, Mr. Weber took time away from the administration of his media empire and other civically-minded enterprises to answer me:
Bill, If you want to comment in a manner that is relevant, useful, interesting even in the slightest, great. But we’re certainly under no obligation to allow the comment session to be a place for meanspirited and gratuitous mocking of me, my colleagues and my company. You are a classic Internet troll and we’re not going to leave comments up if they are in that spirit. We’re being generous by not blocking your IP altogether. Don’t you have anything better to do than piss on people who are working very hard to make a living doing legitimate journalism.
Well. I simply answered this by inquiring of Mr. Weber if he had a sense of humor.
Bill, If you knew me you’d know I actually had a great sense of humor, I just don’t find your nasty sarcasm particularly funny. Oh, and we actually do pay our writers, believe it or not. Making a living in this business is not easy and we’re working very hard at it. To return the sarcastic favor, thanks for all your help and support the cause of original journalism in the West. If you don’t like New West, don’t read it, but spare us the gratuitous meanness.
When William F. Buckley, Jr. died, there was unleashed a flood elegiac stories, reminiscences of friends and colleagues, etc., as befits a man of his intellectual stature and accomplishments. After reading one of these pieces (not on New West), I followed up with a short trip down the commentary thread, and one post has stuck in my mind ever since. It went: “William F. Buckley is dead. Too bad conservatism didn’t die with him.”
That’s all they really want. They want us to go away.
About the Author
Bill Croke, formerly of Cody, Wyoming, is a writer in Salmon, Idaho.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (54) | Leave a comment
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SLG| 6.22.09 @ 6:19AM
Points well made. Yet, I've seen a whole lot of nasty, nasty comments from those extreme right-wing zealots on these pages, directed toward anyone who doesn't agree with their Anti-Choice stance -- name-calling and innuendo about some pending trip to Hades for anyone with the audacity to disagree with their firm, absolute ANTI-abortion platform. Goes both ways, some of the comments here (and elsewhere) are down-right scary! And, for that reason, some former contributors of the Libertarian persuasion have disappeared, for which, the aforementioned zealots must be eternally grateful...
Marc Jeric| 6.22.09 @ 6:20AM
The commies are feeling their oats, everywhere: in Congress, in the MSM, in the streets with the ACORN brownshirts, in the White House with those globaloney warming hoax, in the nationalizing business (banks, cars, insurance, mortgage, hospitals, and soon oil & gas industries). This drunken orgy will go on for another 1-1/2 years; then the elections will throw them back into hate and despondency.
Mackay Rippey | 6.22.09 @ 7:34AM
One thing liberals cannot abide is to have their sacred cows gored. Laughter, at Liberals, may be the best antidote against them.
Kitty| 6.22.09 @ 7:40AM
I, too, occasionally comment on NewWest. I usually regret it, as some of the hate can be jarring. So I try to bite my tongue and tell myself that there's no use responding. But I still do.
The recent post on healthcare is a good example. I commented that Obama's plan will be a back door to a single payer plan, which pegged me as an evil, spiteful conservative. Some back and forth conversing ensued. One lefty said, "I know we are supposed to be polite on these posts but, Kitty, you are a fool. You are right-wing conspiracy nut which automatically makes you a liar as well. I've read your other postings and hope you are not an elected official or have nay responsibility where other people's children are concerned." (Actually, I think I may frame that one.)
A right-of-center comment spikes the site's DefCon meter. Stand-by to feel the hate.
...
Doctor Right| 6.22.09 @ 8:10AM
I've been kicked-off and banned from so many far-left internet "news" sites that I've made a hobby of finding a way back on to continue giving them a dose of in-your-face reality, Conservative-style.
These leftwingers are an odd bunch. They love to scream and cry about "freedoms", but one gets the distinct idea that they haven't a clue as to what freedom truly is. Most of them are spoiled, under-educated, twenty-something ignoramuses who the world owes them a living...The same geniuses who voted for Obama and now whine incessantly that they can't find jobs (What? That Bachelor's Degree in "Social Justice" isn't marketable??).
Inevitably, I'm called a "Troll" by these young malcontents who, having never been taught even the most rudimentary debating techniques, always resort to nasty insults and occasional death-wishes to state their case.
My best effort? Uploading an entire Ann Coulter column onto DailyKOS. The Kos-Kids went BALLISTIC!! The hatred, vitriol, and venom was off-the-charts. The most priceless Kos-Kids quote from that episode was one that actually chilled me to the marrow:
"We're not about free speech, ass****".
With their man in the White House, that's become self-evident.
owyheewine| 6.22.09 @ 9:24AM
Fortunately, leftys are mostly relegated to some sort of media, and don't often darken the streets of the intermountain west.
Most are not natives, but refugees from Blue States. There are some doownsides to our freedom.
Alan Brooks| 6.22.09 @ 9:48AM
ironically, there are more conservatives in NY.
The West is filled with rednecks who just do their thing. Now the In thing is 'medical' marijuana.
"I need mah medicine, Jed"
call 807- 555 -2659 for waterpipes, rolling papers, edibles, black lights.
Party Hearty, Marty
Alan Brooks| 6.22.09 @ 9:50AM
Westerners are libertarians more or less, NOT solid conservatives.
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 10:06AM
Excuse me, doc -- but there've been more than a few extreme zealot types (gay crap, stem-cells and Anti-Choice, of course) who have done a fair amount of threatening on These Pages -- if they had been able to climb thru wires and/or Internet into your house....?
No, the extreme right "social" conservatives are nearly (not quite, but close) as scary as the demented Democrats/socialists/Marxists can be.
You know, the Randall Terry type advocates....
As noted earlier, there's been more than a few who were pretty steady contributors who've split, departed for friendlier places; just because you may be pro-Choice (what is there about that word that people fail to comprehend?), it's no fun being called "baby-killer."
Goes both ways.....
Doctor Right| 6.22.09 @ 10:45AM
Dear SLG,
I'm afraid you're operating under a few glaring misconceptions that need to be spelled-out in detail.
First of all, no one ever said there's not wackos on all side of the political spectrum. If you've ever been threatened for expressing a contrarian point-of-view (and I have), then that's unfortunate. However, it's also flotsam, as the anonymity provided by these forums guarantees no chance of some wacko actually carrying-out his/her threat.
Additionally, 99% of any vitriol I've noticed on TASOnline and directed at lefties is almost always directed at a specific, few lefties ("Dave Matthews" comes to mind) who troll this board, and make a point of posting inflammatory statements that are designed to illicit an angry response - and they often do. But that is a FAR cry from being verbally insulted or threatened for merely expressing a contrarian point-of-view, which happens often on websites like DailyKOS.
Also, you may not have noticed, but TASOnline NEVER bans anyone, regardless of the stupid or inflammatory things they post. Reasonable minds can differ on the wisdom of this policy, but again, lefty websites like DailyKOS routinely ban people for having contrarian opinions, and debating them. That's because Lefties don't like debate, since debate usually points out the glaring errors in their stated positions.
Finally, I find it highly amusing when men like Randall Terry are considered violent and extreme because they oppose the extreme violence which goes on inside of abortion clinics. Sorry that you don't like being referred to as a "baby-killer", and perhaps, since you're not actually doing the "baby-killing" (like the late, unlamented Dr. Tiller), then that is an unfair sobriquet. However, and you may not appreciate this, if you are "Pro-Choice" then you MOST CERTAINLY support the killing of babies, because that's the inevitable result of the "Pro-Choice" position. Maybe "Pro-Choicers" would be less annoying if they'd simply man-up to what they believe in, and stop trying to sugar-coat it.
Trotter| 6.22.09 @ 11:39AM
The New West is pretty emblematic of liberalism in general. There is almost a rabid intolerance of any differing opinions.
And SLG, yes there are intolerant nuts on both sides of the political spectrum. However, on the left the nuts compose the majority of that side and are the mainstream of liberalism. On the right, the intolerant nuts tend to truly be the fringe players.
Frank Smith| 6.22.09 @ 11:40AM
Welcome to "1984."
I find it ironic, though not surprising, that there is criticism of the ostensible exclusionary policies of comments contrary to the viewpoint of the management of an obscure Montana media outlet in the Spectator.
At the behest of Richard Mellon Scaife, of course, the Spectator (born in 1924, as it proudly claims, in a Bowery bar that excluded women until forced by courts to admit them in 1970) transformed itself into a trash sheet that made the National Enquirer look like a legitimate journalistic enterprise by comparison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_Project
Cooke's whiny and disingenuous piece about those whom he characterizes as "Lefty-Tropes" finds resonance in readers who rise to paint anyone outside their own knuckle-dragger set as "commies," "lefty," and "far-left."
A bit on censorship, if you will: I posted a fairly innocuous comment on FreePress a few years ago and was banned for life in under 15 seconds.
I was quoted three times in the first Wall Street Journal web piece (August 29th, 3:50 p.m.) about McCain's suicidal choice of Sarah Palin for Veep. A few days later, all three quotes and my name were excised from the website article, left otherwise intact. Here are the quotes which were repeated by an Anchorage Daily News columnist two days later, prior to the Murdoch erasure:
"Even as Alaska governor, Gov. Palin has been criticized for her sparse experience. 'Sarah is a small town mayor running Alaska as if it's a small town.' 'McCain is out of his mind. He has no foreign policy experience and she'll help because she's been fishing in Canada'."
I submit that this sort of censorship characterizes the conservative and far-right press. I also agree with one reader leaving feedback that you long ago gave libertarians little cause to continue reading your publication.
So it right wing it would appear, is guilty of far more energetic "Ministry of Truth"-type behavior than is the left.
Maine address directory | 6.22.09 @ 12:08PM
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owyheewine| 6.22.09 @ 12:08PM
Alan Brooks
We are Goldwater conservatives out here. We're closer to the original conservatives. We just have as much suspicion of government mandates from the political right as those of the left. We are certainly suspicious of New York "conservatives". Certainly our track record is better.
Yellow Pages Maryland | 6.22.09 @ 12:10PM
Oh Pat, you’ve got friends! Don’t give me that. Your blog looks great and has good info. You can be friends with me. I would love some feedback on my site Maryland address directory when you got time. Thanks.
RIGHTALK | 6.22.09 @ 12:26PM
The Right has a terminal, congenital brain defect that prevents them from understanding the need to own their own distribution channels to communicate their ideas. The Left owns/controls/dominates:
1) Film
2) Commercial TV
3) Public radio
4) Public TV
5) Newspapers/magazines
6) Internet
7) Primary/secondary education
The Right dominates talk radio - at least until the Obamatons take care of that problem. So the Right is down 7:1 yet in our experience, has evinced ZERO interest in expanding their distribution - unless of course, somebody wants to give it to them for free. They'd rather whine about being "disenfranchised" from their opposition's wholly owned subsidiary media than do anything about producing and *distributing* their own media because *that* would cost money and they're not interested in doing anything about preventing their own demise if they can't be absolutely sure they're going to make a tidy profit at it. The Right acts like they were POW's in a Japanese prison camp waiting for somebody to throw a potato at them off the back of the Leftwing media truck because they fail to understand that freedom of the press only exists for the guy that *actually owns a press*.
Where are the Right's newsman schools? Where are the Right's film schools? Where are the Right's teaching colleges? Where are the Right's non-commercial satellite tv channels? Where is the Right's public radio and tv programming? The Left is doing all of that, the Right is NOT. Why? WHY? The Right would rather whine like a snot-nosed, liberal, professional-victim than put their money where their mouths are and compete. They'd rather preach to the choir in the outer space of the Internet while grinding out policy papers that nobody reads instead of taking their message to the public with their own distribution.
The Left has legions of committed lemmings who take the long view, the Right has a few, mostly ineffective mercenaries. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's going to win that one. Let me know when the Right wants its "I can't communicate" disease cured.
Liberal| 6.22.09 @ 12:35PM
You conservastives are old news. obama is the man in the white house and he will put an end to your mean ways. change is here. get a life people
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 12:55PM
Thanks, doc -- you pretty much proved my point with the closing innuendo...
Owyheewine sure did nail it, however... Barry Goldwater was the real deal -- before things got totally twisted - - the only politician I really trusted, and much maligned (he was responsible in large part for the integration of the Phoenix School system as a member of the city council 'waaay back, and integration of the Arizone Air National Guard (and [whisper], lest someone gets offended, Goldwater was pro-choice too, but shuuuuussssssssh...).
Anyway, yes, it does go both ways -- my problem is that I'm totally intolerant of intolerance -- nutcases everywhere.
Blacque Jacques Shellacque| 6.22.09 @ 2:11PM
Also, you may not have noticed, but TASOnline NEVER bans anyone, regardless of the stupid or inflammatory things they post.
They might want to reconsider that in the case of comment spam....
M. T. Wallitt| 6.22.09 @ 2:14PM
SLG, some of us think that women deserve better than abortion, and that every child deserves a chance. Think that's an extreme point of view? Abortion -- the deliberate killing of a baby before birth -- is extreme. You're lucky that you had a mother who let you be born. About 50 million babies (since 1973 alone) haven't been nearly so fortunate.
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 2:42PM
Terrific, Mr. Wallit. If that's your position, great.
I am not going to argue. Really.
But, as a marginal Libertarian at best (or worst?), it's not my position to dictate what women do - nor do I guess it's yours, or in Randall Terry, or James Dobson's ballpark.
They'll have to answer to God, as we all will, even the most intolerant among us....
If you wish to outlaw abortion, consider a few numbers comparing where it's legal and where it isn't. I have them someplace, and if you require substantiation, I'll see if they're still around.
In the meantime, no, I sure don't have the answer (if, indeed, one exists) except to make it a state by state option maybe.
Anyway, back to the essentials -- I don't like abortion, but I'm not presumptuous enough, or even sanctimonious enough to tell my wife, daughters, or anyone else's how they must think.
Again, they're answerable to God, not me. Or you, I'd guess....
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 2:55PM
Stumbled across those aforementioned numbers, almost by accident. Didn't make note as to the source; could be the UN Health bunch (in which case, I wouldn't necessarily trust them...).
Anyway, the countries with the least abortion include Belgium with an abortion rate of 6.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44. The Netherlands, 6.5. Germany, 7.8. In the USA it’s 22. It's legal in the above cited countries.
Then, compared to countries where abortion is ILLEGAL: Egypt, 23; Brazil, 40; Chile, 50; Peru, 56. Granted, those numbers are a couple years old.
Anyway, if “pro-life” laws are the best way to reduce abortion, then why are the world's lowest abortion rates found in Pro-CHOICE countries -- while some of the world's highest abortion rates are in countries that outlaw abortion?
And again, FINALLY, No, I don't have the answer either.....
Brian B| 6.22.09 @ 3:01PM
SLG,
I'm wondering if you're missing the point of this article.
Mr. Croke pointed out that he made a presumably innocuous, wise-ass comment which was subsequently deleted, demonstrating the intolerance and lack of a sense of humor of an apparently mainstream liberal publication.
Your response is that there are lots of flaming, mean-spirited whackos on the right as well as the left.
Seems to me that is a non sequitor.
Roy| 6.22.09 @ 3:18PM
Yeah, SLG, I'm going to want to see a source on that too. But I will say that what really matters to me is number of babies aborted, not on a per-woman basis but on a per-baby basis.
However, part of the problem is the prevalence of the self-indulgist viewpoint. According to this viewpoint, unremitting self-indulgence, especially of a sexual nature, it the highest goal of life; sadly, this sometimes results in the unmitigated disaster of an "unwanted" pregnancy; therefore, abortion is required to keep the party going, and party-pooping cultures that have not grasped the fundamental purpose of life are going to be the ones that abort the least.
Unfortunately it is not really true. Think about a culture that believes in "honor killing". You're talking about a culture in which people will blow their own daughter's head off if she disgraces them by getting pregnant outside of marriage. They may place some value on her life, but hell, not as compared with their own more valuable life, or even their own more valuable "honor". And in that case how much value do you think they place on the child's life? You're talking about cultures that barely know about ultrasounds.
Shooting your daughter may technically restore "honor", but you kn0w - the neighbors will still laugh..wouldn't it be nice to just you know..make the "problem" vanish?
Think of all the stereotypes you've ever heard about Victorians and how mean they were to anybody with an "unwanted" pregnancy. Set aside whether these stereotypes are true or not - wouldn't you think abortion would be an absolute devilsend to such a society?
Roy| 6.22.09 @ 3:18PM
Oh right, the substance of the article, yeah I agree with Brian.
Bob Wire | 6.22.09 @ 4:51PM
Bill, I won't address your NewWest bashing, as it's no surprise, and fairly predictable. I will say this, though, about why your comments on NewWest rub people the wrong way: one man's sarcasm is another man's hateful rancor. Internet conversation lacks the visual and aural aspects that make up the majority of human communication, so unless the reader knows you personally or has read much of your work, how is he or she to know what's sarcasm, and what's sincere? It's a deeply flawed medium in that respect, so it's easy to be misconstrued. Believe me, I know.
On another note, I think it's dirty pool to publish private emails in your blog. Not cool.
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 4:51PM
Brian --- except 'way up top, at the beginning, I was answering alligations or innuendo (or some other form of criticism) from those who would presume me an evil person. When challenged I found numbers. But THEY WEREN'T IMPORTANT, per se.
What was important was the fact that nasty charges come from the right as well as the left, accusations and cries of "baby-killer" because I recognize the word "choice" by its definition in my Funk&Wagnell; - - and SIMPLY BECAUSE I (and a few other Libertarian thinking folk) DON'T JUDGE, as so many others are prone to do.
The state legislatures can decide to make laws if they choose, or a national referendum; it's most unlikely that the stupid congress would overturn anything......
In any event, name-calling and snide remarks notwithstanding, my position is simple: We answer to God, not those pontificating types who presume to know what God thinks.
That's all. Now if you'll pardon me - - - -
ObamaTheSocialistPunk| 6.22.09 @ 4:53PM
FRANK SMITH: " Blah...blah....blah..... a FEW YEARS AGO...." Book us / page us for something RECENT reflecting the "knuckle-draggers'" tendency to censor your stuff.... It's not there.... Not for you nor others on even a 10% scale to the kos or other limp-wristed, Perez Hilton star-struck outlet... It ain't there.... NO ONE kicks people off / bans / censors LIKE THE LEFT DOES...
Fairness Doctrine.... ? THE ULTIMATE ban.....
Who does that dog turd belong to ? A fat, drunk bastard who can't keep his car on the bridge - a fat, gay bastard that can't keep his brothel a secret... They're not Leftists...they're Socialists.....
M. T. Wallitt| 6.22.09 @ 5:15PM
SLG, in your 2:42 p.m. comment, you don't mention the babies at ALL. I'm not surprised, since pro-abortion people almost never do.
That's one big difference between the pro-life and pro-abortion positions: Pro-life people care about the mothers (there are far more pregnancy-care centers than there are abortion mills) AND the babies.
Even in legal abortion mills, mothers can be injured or killed. Lou Ann Herron of Arizona bled to death while her abortionist finished his lunch. Synthia Dennard of Illinois died when her abortionist removed part of an artery instead of a section of fallopian tube, then delayed getting her medical help. You can Google both of them, and there are many others who have died; many other mothers have been injured. We care about every mother who is in an unplanned pregnancy; why not pay a visit to a crisis-pregnancy center in your area and see how much good they do?
The purpose of an abortion is to kill a baby, but pro-abortion people don't seem to want to talk about that. Would you have minded at all if your wife had decided to abort one or more of your daughters? Did you really think of them only as blobs of tissue before they were born?
So, SLG, do you really think that women DON'T deserve better than abortion? And do you really think that there are babies who DON'T deserve a chance?
WA Mayer | 6.22.09 @ 6:48PM
SLG is a classic lefty troll.
They actually believe that reserving judgment on moral issues makes them better than people who know right from wrong and have the temerity to take a stand.
And yes, SLG, if you think it's pretentious to feel one has access to that ultimate truth then so be it.
I would rather be tagged as pretentious than someone who like the plurality in post Weimar Germany who either abdicated taking a position or simply were too cowardly to do so.
I mean how could ANYONE second guess Herr Hitler, he had a right to his opinion to...didn't he?
WA Mayer | 6.22.09 @ 6:49PM
opinion to = opinion too
SLG| 6.22.09 @ 7:20PM
You've pretty much proven my point, you last few highly opinionated folk = calling pro-CHOICE pro-abortion?
Leftist troll?
What stupidity. Such audacity.
Yeah, you've shown that you're as intolerant as those jokers at the Daily Koz (or whatever) are said to be... I don't read 'em, so can't be sure.
To repeat two quick things one final time, then I'm gone ----- those who consider or even have an abortion have to answer to God, not you pretentious and sanctimonious know-it-all's...
And, since the subject was not abortion but apparently the subject of intolerance -- I rest my case.
This website has now become history... to a number of other Libertarian/Goldwater types, and I'll join 'em, just like Henry Reardon and the group in Atlas Shrugged. Adios.
M. T. Wallitt| 6.23.09 @ 8:01AM
SLG, while you are pretending to leave the abortion argument up to God on judgment day, there will be another 3,000 American babies killed by abortion today. Won't you do something to help them? Offer some support or care to their mothers through a crisis-pregnancy center? I'll bet there is one in your area that would appreciate your financial donations or hands-on volunteer help.
Have you noticed that YOU are the one who brought up the topic of abortion, in the very first comment here?
I'll bet you won't read about Lou Ann Herron or Synthia Dennard online. I hope others will. Then, they won't have died at the hands of legal abortionists in vain.
Doctor Right| 6.23.09 @ 1:08PM
Dear SLG:
Pro-Choice IS Pro-Abortion.
I've already proven that if you support the "right" of a woman to choose to abort (kill) her child, then you support the killing of children.
End of discussion.
However, unlike those who openly support the "right" to an abortion, your gutless, luke-warm position ("I'm personally against it, but who am I to tell someone else what to think?") is despicable.
You're an absolute moral coward.
Your wife and daughters must be so proud to have such a man leading their family.
Helen Donnelly| 6.23.09 @ 2:59PM
Dear "Liberal",
I hope you are joking. If you really think Obama is "the man", take a look at what has happened to our nation and the rest of the world since he has taken office. Here's a clue.... it's not good.