Car Guy
Obama Nails the Coffin Shut
From now on, driving will be more fun in go-carts — or until they’re also outlawed.
Can you hear that? It’s the sound of the final nail being hammered down onto the coffin lid of the U.S. car industry.
President Obama wields the hammer — in the form of a massive uptick in federally required fuel economy standards that will require each automaker’s lineup of new vehicles to achieve an average of 35.5 MPG by 2016.
But what could be so bad about forcing the automakers to make cars more fuel efficient? Dig deeper and you’ll see.
Even the Obama people concede the new mileage standards will cost American consumers about $1,600 per vehicle by 2016 — in effect, a massive tax increase in the middle of a neo-Depression. The difference is this tax increase will be optional. People can avoid it by avoiding new cars — which will make it that much harder for the car industry to recover from the catastrophic state it finds itself in right now, with sales down anywhere from 30-50 percent depending on the make.
Pure genius!
Boosters of the 35.5 MPG standard talk up the fuel savings (current cars must meet a 27.5 MPG average), but if the car costs $1,600 more to buy, the roughly 8 MPG uptick is probably a net wash, at least until the car is several years old and the fuel savings amortizes the considerably higher up front costs. Obama and Co. are millionaires, so this is small potatoes from their point-of-view. But ask most Americans whether they think $1,600 is chump change.
But all this is secondary. The real killing aspect of CAFE (the federal government’s cutesy acronym for the fuel economy standards) is that it will mean the summary execution of perhaps one-third to one-half of all the vehicles in GM, Ford, and Chrysler’s product lineups — including the best-selling and most profitable models, virtually none of which achieve close to 35.5 MPG.
The law doesn’t say an automaker can’t continue producing cars that don’t meet the 35.5 MPG cut. But it does impose “gas guzzler” fines on any automaker (and individual car) that doesn’t. And since the fuel economy standards represent average mileage — the presence of just one “gas guzzler” has the same effect on an automaker’s overall CAFE ratings as a D- has on a high-schooler’s overall GPA.
That means automakers (and not just American ones — Toyota makes many “gas pigs,” too) will be under tremendous pressure to cancel countless models — including models just now coming to market (or soon to be here) that represent huge sums of money in the form of R&D, tooling, assembly lines and so on. The 2010 Chevy Camaro is one example.
Say sayonara.
Normally, the huge investments in the development of new car lines would be amortized over the life cycle of the car “platform” — which is typically 5-8 years, on average. But at the stroke of Obama’s pen, a vast fleet of barely-born cars will be rendered economically untenable. All the money poured into them will be flushed straight down the pipes — adding to the vast ocean of red ink that’s already sloshing around.
The industry can only take so many hits below the waterline. This might be the coupe de grace. And if it’s not, the 35.5 MPG’s follow-up will definitely do the job.
Obama also wants to cut new car “emissions” by another 30 percent. Sounds good — except that it’s a hugely dishonest number. Most people innocently assume “cutting by 30 percent” represents a substantial cut. In reality, all 2009 and newer cars are already virtually pollution-free in terms of their exhaust emissions. Literally 98 percent of the gases coming out of the tailpipe are just water vapor and carbon dioxide. Only about 2 percent constitutes “emissions” — things like carbon monoxide and the remains of incomplete combustion (unburned hydrocarbons).
It is this remaining 2 percent that Obama wants to cut by 30 percent. Work that out. The number is very small.
But the cost will not be. These minor, incremental “improvements” in exhaust emissions grow increasingly expensive. It is the law of diminishing returns. The majority of the “easy” improvements/reductions have already been achieved. Getting at that last 1-2 percent will involved Herculean effort and huge sums — and probably will never fully be realized since the act of internal combustion necessarily is going to produce some unhelpful byproducts, however minor, no matter what we do.
About the Author
Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: The Cars You Love to Hate (Motor Books International) and a new book, Road Hogs.
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Pingback| 5.20.09 @ 6:24AM
The American Spectator : Obama Nails the Coffin Shut | Democrat = Socialist links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
stephanie| 5.20.09 @ 6:39AM
Well, I want to know if the messiah has figured out how I will haul my horsetrailer and my boat with a car, by today's standards, that gets his required gas milage? And will his family be driving one of these gocarts? I doubt it. When he gives up his Suburban, so will I.
Deborah D | 5.20.09 @ 6:41AM
Just a question...Does this administration want to destroy the country? I'm just asking because if there is anything good they could do for the country, they seem to take the opposite course. I'm trying to get a handle on whether they are doing all of this to purposely hurt the economy, good companies, the productive and responsible people of the country or if they are just stupid. Either way these folks have no business running the country. Or should I say running the country into the ground.
Thanks for the article, Mr. Peters.
Robert Rosencrans| 5.20.09 @ 6:44AM
The Obama White House seems intent on destroying one industry after another. The system is being gamed in some industries so that the successful can supplement the losers, while the auto industry, which has been under government supervision for over 50 years has collapsed.
It doesn't matter now what type of cars are designed, the federal government did what they do best, they destroyed an industry.
Other examples abound. The textile industry vacated America and moved thousands of jobs overseas, including the plum white collar jobs that go along with heavy industry.
The credit card industry will now take a massive hit and look for layoffs there. It isn't just a question of the moral hazard of people who pay their credit card bills on time supplementing those who don't, it's the fact that the government has made it easier for banks to charge their good customers more. As a result, many of those customers will just use debit cards, leading to a reduction of employees in the credit card market.
Many other industries are moving jobs overseas. In the meantime, the U.S. Congress is fiddling while the real economy burns. Expect a massive downturn in the DOW and the S&P 500 by the end of the year. It will take 10 years to recover, if ever.
Everywhere the Obama administration lays their evil hands, they have laid the groundwork for a financial Armageddon.
Deborah D | 5.20.09 @ 6:50AM
Great comments, Mr. Rosencrans. Yeah, the credit card crapola that's coming down the pike is yet another instance of making the responsible bailout the irresponsible. Obama hates responsible Americans -- apparently he thinks we got to be responsible by doing something wrong.
I am the seventh of eight children. My husband is number two of nine. We worked ourselves through college and have worked ourselves to where we are through no help from anyone. Those are the people Obama can't stand. Why is that?
Melvin| 5.20.09 @ 7:10AM
Miss Deborah I'll to you why Obama and like thinkers can't stand you. In fact Obama and the Liberal elite despise and loath you and your husband. Because you and your husband represent everything that is the United States of America.
You represent success, you represent prosperity and you represent American exceptional-ism.
You don't know what it is like to live in the slums and squaller of this Country's inner cities, you don't know what it is like to look into the eyes of a pregnant 12 year old, and you don't know what it is like to live without hope.
What you and the rest of this Country are experiencing is revenge. Revenge and pay back because this Country has grown fat and lazy on the backs of the poor and less fortunate.
We are being bullied by a two year Senatorial jug-head who has no physical or emotional ties to this Country and therefore why should he give a damn what his policies do to us.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 7:11AM
* "Shouldn't it be our choice? "
Not if you are an Idiot-Conservative who is pro-pollution, pro-oil addition, pro-SUV, anti-regulation and anti-efficiency.
Eric Peters is the stupidest person in the world. Evidently. He is opposed to mandatory auto insurance, opposed to federal bumper-impact standards, and yet he is in favor of Detroit building bigger SUVs.
The very presence of such an idiot writing for the American Spectator explains why everyone considers conservatives are idiots.
***
The auto industry is dead. The government should allow Ford, GM and Chrysler to go out of business. Problem solved!
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 7:14AM
Hello Deborah,
* "I am the seventh of eight children. My husband is number two of nine. We worked ourselves through college and have worked ourselves to where we are through no help from anyone. Those are the people Obama can't stand. Why is that? "
God, what a self-important conservative idiot. Is it any wonder that the Republican party is at 21% and declining to oblivion ...
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 7:16AM
Hello Robert,
* "Many other industries are moving jobs overseas. In the meantime, the U.S. Congress is fiddling while the real economy burns. Expect a massive downturn in the DOW and the S&P 500 by the end of the year. It will take 10 years to recover, if ever. "
Who the hell cares about the Dow and the S&P any longer?
Throughout the Bush presidency these numbers were pumped up by fraud and an unsustainable bubble. They both collapsed while Bush was president.
And you want to return to those policies again ...
No thanks.
The American people rejected conservativism for a reason. The Republican party is an extremist minority party for a reason.
John| 5.20.09 @ 7:17AM
One wonders after all of these New Laws of Physics being declared, how one gets a family of five to church on Sunday morning? (There that's such a loaded question I will allow y'all to ponder in unPC wonder.)
Now of course as GM becomes the FannieMae and FreddieMac of auto manufacturers, and Chrysler-Fiat-Opel struggle to build a car cobbled together out of the various mutually exclusive Federal Regulations that dictate how it is to be built, powered, and sold... (Does the government supply an inspector for each step of the process... with a little stamp of approval?)
It looks like all of those closed dealerships will just re-open as Used Car Lots.
Wow... The One will make every city look like Havana, yet.
r/John
Melvin| 5.20.09 @ 7:21AM
You damn right Deborah and her husband are important unlike you who wait who wait for their inheritance instead of making your own.
Deborah and her husband worked for every damn thing that they have unlike those who feel that they are owed prosperity instead of earning it.
It's none of the government's or your business what the hell Deborah and her husband do to provide a living for their family. Beside who are you to judge?
Melvin| 5.20.09 @ 7:22AM
The latter post was directed at David Mathews
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 7:26AM
Hello Melvin,
* "You damn right Deborah and her husband are important unlike you who wait who wait for their inheritance instead of making your own.
Deborah and her husband worked for every damn thing that they have unlike those who feel that they are owed prosperity instead of earning it.
It's none of the government's or your business what the hell Deborah and her husband do to provide a living for their family. Beside who are you to judge? "
blah blah blah ... Deborah hasn't accomplished anything on her own. Deborah and her husband are just as dependent upon this society as the impoverished. Deborah and her husbard are going to join the impoverished soon, too.
Deborah's entitlements are ending. Her world is ending.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 7:29AM
Hello John,
* "One wonders after all of these New Laws of Physics being declared, how one gets a family of five to church on Sunday morning? "
How utterly stupid conservatives are ... do you really need an SUV to go to church? What ... do you have to cross mountains and rivers on an unpaved road to get to churcjh?
The auto industry is dead. I am in favor of the government removing the life support and allowing that industry to cease to exist.
If Detroit needs the SUV to survive the auto industry might as well go straight to hell.
***
The churchgoing family might pray to God that they do not get into an accident with an uninsured motorist ... since Eric Peters is opposed to mandatory insurance.
MAOBAMA| 5.20.09 @ 7:41AM
We have officially lost the USA my father and I have known for 4 decades. Obama does not care about the destruction he is thrusting on our economy. We have officially turned the corner where massive power in DC is going to smash the producers and achievers and innovators.
Welkome to Amerika, Komrade. Sit down and shut up.
stu.b.con| 5.20.09 @ 7:44AM
Dear l'il davey----I seem to remember a couple of weeks ago some of us suggested you make the ultimate sacrifice and wrap your lips around the tailpipe of your prius, or maybe a good old fashioned overdose is more your speed, in any event make the world a better place. Go for it you pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being!
For all of you who wish to have a dialogue with this retched little piece of crap 1. please note the "respect" he shows conservative posters and 2. it's impossible to have a battle of wits with and unarmed person.
bluecollarbytes| 5.20.09 @ 7:57AM
The ObamaShow will do for the American Auto industry what Barney Frank, etc. did for the mortgage industry and home values.
'Buying American' will mean buying a Fedmobile, created by bureaucrats and Congressional aides....maybe eventually even some Federal judges. And since liberal failed policies never cease- they only become more convoluted as ideologues dig their feet in, expect this to become a never-ending boondoggle.
Some vehicles on the road are of limited utility, but not those Trucks and SUVs which 'do it all'. Get em while u can.
Michael L. Hauschild| 5.20.09 @ 8:04AM
I am currently on sabbatical taking care of my parents (lost dad at ninety in January) so it would be impossible for me to afford one of the Obama generation wonder cars. But that is OK. My 1977, which gets about 20 mpg on the highway (74,000 actual miles) will do just fine. When they start to tax and regulate it off the roadways I am just going to walk or ride my bike.
Brubaker| 5.20.09 @ 8:06AM
Reading some of the negative comments posted here regarding SUVs, etc, I am reminded of the introduction of the Segway some years ago.
Although any rational person could see that this neat little device would have relatively limited application, it noneless was trumpeted as the solution to everyone's transportation needs.
Soon, Segways would be replacing cars and SUVs. Our streets would be less crowded, there would be less pollution and suddenly, there wouldn't be any parking problems.
Didn't happen. Not gonna happen.
It's not that the Segway is a bad product. It really isn't. But it also isn't going to help transport the kids to a soccor match or get to work on a snowy morning or, well, you get the idea.
No matter how much the environmental activists of this world may wish it otherwise, cars and trucks are not going away.
We can't all live in a loft above a bodega. People need to move themselves, their families and their possessions. Until a some sort of sun powered hovercraft comes along, cars and trucks remain the best solution.
One final note: Why is it that self-styled liberals inevitably feel it necessary to engage in ad hominum attacks rather than address the issues? Perhaps it's the intellectual equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:12AM
Hello stu,
* "I seem to remember a couple of weeks ago some of us suggested you make the ultimate sacrifice and wrap your lips around the tailpipe of your prius, or maybe a good old fashioned overdose is more your speed, in any event make the world a better place. Go for it you pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being! "
Stu is an ideal representative of the uneducated idiots who currently characterize the bitter sore loser conservative extremist movement. They are the one who are sucking on the tailpipes of their cars as the Republican party dies.
Thank God you people are a politically irrelevant minority. Follow Rush Limbaugh right off the cliff like conservative lemmings.
Indiana Alex| 5.20.09 @ 8:14AM
The part this article left out is that these new cars will be cheaper because they will be manufactured by highly trained monkeys
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:15AM
Hello Brubaker,
* "No matter how much the environmental activists of this world may wish it otherwise, cars and trucks are not going away. "
You aren't going to like the future so very much, Brubaker. Americans are going to lose their cars and SUVs. The auto industry will die ... since it is on intensive care already death is approaching quickly.
If America needs SUVs to survive, the United States of America won't survive.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:16AM
Hello Indiana,
* "The part this article left out is that these new cars will be cheaper because they will be manufactured by highly trained monkeys "
Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber will manufacture cars?
Curly Smith| 5.20.09 @ 8:18AM
This isn't about higher gas standards or selling the new and improved "Coffin Car". It's a continuation of the liberals "Drill Nowhere, Drill Never, Pay More!" energy plan. The automobile is anathema to the modern day liberal because it represents freedom for the masses. We can live where we want, shop where we want, work where we want and organize our lives around our schedule. No self-loathing freedom hating liberal can tolerate that sort of behavior. The peons must be controlled and power must rest firmly in the hands of their betters.
When the Communists came for the cars
I remained silent;
I took public transportation.
Then they locked up the plasma TVs,
I remained silent;
I still hadn't hooked up my free converter box.
Then they came for the cell phones,
I did not protest;
I couldn't afford the monthly bill anymore.
Then they came for the workers,
I did not speak out;
Many business had been taken-over but I still didn't have a job.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
Dave| 5.20.09 @ 8:20AM
"The part this article left out is that these new cars will be cheaper because they will be manufactured by highly trained monkeys "
You mean Dave Mathews? Nah, maybe not, you did say "highly trained".
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:25AM
Hello Curly,
* "It's a continuation of the liberals "Drill Nowhere, Drill Never, Pay More!" energy plan. The automobile is anathema to the modern day liberal because it represents freedom for the masses. We can live where we want, shop where we want, work where we want and organize our lives around our schedule. No self-loathing freedom hating liberal can tolerate that sort of behavior. The peons must be controlled and power must rest firmly in the hands of their betters. "
Boo hoo hoo ... the auto industry has really gotten you, hasn't it? Americans cannot live without their cars because this civilization was built to support an auto addiction. Americans drive SUVs because Americans are terrified of driving.
Americans love driving so much that they spend hours in traffic jams and would rather spend an hour and a half commuting to work and back rather than spend that time with their family.
Americans are consuming 25% of the world's oil production and fighting wars in Iraq and elsewhere because Americans love their SUVs.
***
Needless to say, conservatives are regarded as uneducated extremists for a reason. No amount of drilling is going to save the automobile. Peak Oil has occurred.
Brubaker| 5.20.09 @ 8:29AM
Curly Smith,
Terrific takeoff on Martin Niemöller's famous poem, and absolutely spot on!
William | 5.20.09 @ 8:36AM
Freedom, something liberals don't want the masses of this once great nation to have. And now that the socialists are back in power, they have resumed the dismantling of this country by putting on the full court press. Making sure that we don't have anymore freedoms we once had in the beginning of this country. Speak up, and be jailed for saying certain words. Drive a gas hog and get robbed in high taxes to support a deadbeat society. Try to speak the truth and you are a bigot or insensitive. Do the liberals like the US Constitution? Of course not. That is why it has taken 230 plus years to slowly make the original constitution irrelevant and make this nation a dead country like all other socialist nations. --By the way DM, I survived college and do have a higher education, before the libs undermined that as well. And I do not consider myself a conservative. I believe in the real American Way, which is limited government and freedom. Something liberals don't want us to have, and will make goverment bloated and intrutive.
The left will do anything to make us all miserable.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 8:36AM
Gee, David, I looked at your little "a bug visited me today" photo. That's your only friend, isn't it? I mean, inyour mind, right? Why no photos of friends, anywhere? You know, PEOPLE.
You sorry little loser. This is it, isn't it. Get a little emotional charge trolling on website, provoking strangers you don't have the courage to look in the eye on the street. Then go snap some incredibly half-assed, amateur photos of animals you're too indisciplined to learn anything about and fantasize that you have relevance in this world.
Please, continue the insults; Garofolo is almost this funny.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:40AM
Hello William,
* "Do the liberals like the US Constitution? Of course not. "
George W. Bush trashed the constitution and you said nothing.
* "And I do not consider myself a conservative. I believe in the real American Way, which is limited government and freedom. Something liberals don't want us to have, and will make goverment bloated and intrutive. "
Evidently you wasted your money on education since you failed to become educated. Perhaps you majored in drinking while you were in college.
Jack | 5.20.09 @ 8:42AM
Were else on earth could you read an insane loon's comments that make so much sense? "She is a self-important idiot"?????, "hasn't accomplished anything on her own" ?????, "her entitlements are ending"?????, she is going to join the impoverished!!!!!!!!! The thread of insanity makes this seem all too true.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:43AM
Hello Doorgunner,
* "Gee, David, I looked at your little "a bug visited me today" photo. That's your only friend, isn't it? I mean, inyour mind, right? Why no photos of friends, anywhere? You know, PEOPLE. "
I don't take pictures of people. Humans are a lost cause ... a plague upon the planet. Humans feel too self-important already so there is no need to puff up humankind by cluttering my photo page with pictures of the primates presently destroying the planet.
* "You sorry little loser. This is it, isn't it. Get a little emotional charge trolling on website, provoking strangers you don't have the courage to look in the eye on the street. Then go snap some incredibly half-assed, amateur photos of animals you're too indisciplined to learn anything about and fantasize that you have relevance in this world. "
Boo hoo hoo ... an unhappy conservative. How likely is that?
I meet you people in the street all the time, too. They are the morbidly obese losers getting out of their SUVs as they wander into the mall in order to buy consumer crap on credit that they don't need and won't use.
David Mathews | 5.20.09 @ 8:45AM
Hello Jack,
* "The thread of insanity makes this seem all too true. "
The truth is painful, isn't it? Conservatives cannot handle reality and that is why they cling to their gods and their guns and their talk radio bigots.
William| 5.20.09 @ 8:54AM
DM : "I meet you people in the street all the time, too. They are the morbidly obese losers getting out of their SUVs as they wander into the mall in order to buy consumer crap on credit that they don't need and won't use. "
That is a typical liberal, DM, not a conservative.
Once again our resident lefty is the one who is misinformed and uneducated, the liberal who can't quite get the facts straight. And never will.
You should have studied American History, which I did and fully embrace, because you don't want to accept the truth and have resorted to what amounts to a smear campaign and you are the one who is mean spirited towards those who want to have a real future without bloated goverment invading our lives. Sad miserable liberals, their policies, their undermining of this country, are the real reasons why we are in this fine mess we are in today.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 8:55AM
David,
"I don't take pictures of people. Humans are a lost cause ... a plague upon the planet. Humans feel too self-important already so there is no need to puff up humankind by cluttering my photo page with pictures of the primates presently destroying the planet. "
Then why take the pictures, David? Why post them? Who are they for?
Alice Moore| 5.20.09 @ 8:59AM
Just a suggestion for everyone. Let's stick to the contents of the article and any COGENT points made by responders on a thread/forum. You see internet trolls get their validation from someone responding to their ad hominem attacks. They may have no other way to get this in their real lives. seeing that the same names pop up EVERY day; this life as a troll may be it for them. They have nothing else. So have pity.
Deborah D | 5.20.09 @ 9:02AM
Thanks for your comments, Melvin. David Mathews just proved my point. The hatred is obvious. These are Obama's people.
Like I said before the election, Obama's motto should be: "Do as I say. Don't question. Unity by force." Unfortunately, I was right.
Jack | 5.20.09 @ 9:20AM
People with no appreciation or understanding of how this economy brought America to this point see it all as a zero sum game. Those who acheived took from those who didn't (like Deb D). The perverse and scary logic seems to be the ability to do for yourself is/was an entitlement that allowed you to succeed while others failed(to do anything). Now that entitlement-the ability to think and act for yourself- is to be lost. Somehow , we are all better off for this? Can someone please express a cogent and rational thought from this mess of liberal psuedo-sociopathic disease?
Gerry| 5.20.09 @ 9:34AM
"safe" "safer" Way to destroy your own credibility, Eric.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 9:35AM
I predict a run on SUVs just like the current run on guns, thanks to B.O.
Deborah D | 5.20.09 @ 9:37AM
Yes, Jack, you are correct. Thinking for oneself is now an entitlement. Great way to put it.
Individuality and personal freedom are anathema to the Obama crowd. He decried going after titles in his commencement speech to Arizona State (while he himself relentlessly pursued one of the biggest titles on Earth: President of the United States). Apparently those pursuits are worthy ones, but individual Americans' pursuits? Not so much.
The very things that made the country great are individuality and personal freedom. The pursuit of happiness as stated in the Declaration of Independence...is what has made this country great and has benefitted not only the individual, but the rest of the country and the world with innovations created in this country and spread throughout the world. That's the main thing Obama and his ilk miss as they denigrate this great country and attempt to bring it to its knees.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 9:50AM
Not to worry guys, pretty soon your car will come from China. 0-:
Why does owning a Yugo sound good right about now...
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 10:00AM
The poster that calls himself "dave mathews" is an idiot. Pure, simple, unadulterated idiot. Hhe gets some sort of sick satisfaction in trashing people he does not know. Probably, he was bullied in school, and this is his "payback" for all the years of mistreatment. The more of his ranting and raving that I read, the sorrier I feel for him.
I am vowing today (May 20th, 2009) to never respond to this desperate, ignorant, ranting and raving lunatic again. I firmly believe that if he is completely ignored, eventually he will go elsewhere for his sick and twisted little kicks. Will you join me?
Back to the topic at hand, this administration will stop at nothing in order to destroy this country. In his narcissistic and uncontrollable need for power, Obama is willing to do anything. Destroy any industry. Abolish capitalism. If you still attempt to be successful and his tentacles cannot reach you, he will tax the shirt off your back.
There are two solutions:
1) Elect CONSERVATIVE Senators and Congressman in 2012. Get the libs out!
2) Well, the American spirit will only put up with this crap for so long, so I am not even going to list option two. I think we all know what it is, I just hope it doesn't come to that. It will be ugly.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 10:02AM
Oops!
Hhe = he
Note to self: utilize your preview skills before posting.
Jeff Scheck| 5.20.09 @ 10:04AM
Dave Matthews has to be one of the saddest most pathetic people on the planet.
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 10:23AM
"Humans are a lost cause ... a plague upon the planet."...Dave Matthews
No, you're wrong. Humans like YOU are a plague upon the planet. And our country. As for people you say need to get their money back because you don't deem them to be "educated," I think you've got it wrong. They got more than their money's worth, because they weren't INDOCTRINATED as you were. Maybe in your honor, I'll cut that catalytic converter off of my pickup truck.
As for your take on Deborah D, you sound jealous. Then again, that's what the entire liberal world view is based on. Jealousy. "This person has achieved something, so they must have screwed someone over to get it." Cry me a damned river. That means that you're LAZY & can't so anything for yourself, without the help of The Man. You are a SLAVE to the subsistence you eke out of the guhv-ment dole. Enjoy your bondage, slave. Maybe one day, you'll realize that you're nothing more than another "useful idiot," & wake up. I won't hold my breath, though.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 10:32AM
Big J
I am vowing today (May 20th, 2009) to never respond to this desperate, ignorant, ranting and raving lunatic again.
++++++++++++++++++++
Buddy. I only wish everyone one else would too.
I've watched DM for years and he's been kicked or finally left so many different websites because of what you have been seeing.
Let's hope more posters follow your lead?
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 10:35AM
Navybrat
As for your take on Deborah D, you sound jealous.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I just re-read her post. I'm not getting what you mean?
Mikecampbelly2k| 5.20.09 @ 10:42AM
I wonder what fat boy Michael Moore is going to drive, eh Dave? One question very few are answering: Who gave Hussein Obama the power to set CAFE standards at the stroke of a pen? When are we going to reign in "Dear Leader" Barrack by court challenges? And when does the water get hot enough in the pot to where the frog jumps out? Come on CONSERVATIVES - every talking head on every show should be hammering home the message that this is going to cost the American people HUGELY in MONEY and SAFETY!!! Hammer it until our gums bleed! Time to oppose this aloof dictator with EVERYTHING we have! And if the idiots like Mathews get in the way, all the better......
2Anglico| 5.20.09 @ 11:14AM
Obambi is not the messiah, he's the tooth fairy..waving his wand..poof, 35MPG cars, another wave brings us windmills, he's saving the Acme Super-Deluxe wand with Pixie Dust for ...UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE. I can't wait.
Charlene (FMJ) is ready, are you?
L. Ross| 5.20.09 @ 11:18AM
Mathews: Get a life. Seriously dude.
I know that there is a great deal of frustration with the increase in CAFE standards, especially with the counter constraints of increased safety which our government has also demanded, but there is a silver lining here, people. And while I will admit that there will always be a need for strong trucks for tough jobs, most of the driving that is done is with one person in an empty car, truck, or SUV. Getting better mileage for the 98%of the time you don't need that big truck is a good thing. The best thing about it is that it will help take money from OPEC. Doesn't anyone here think that is something to celebrate?
Bram| 5.20.09 @ 11:29AM
L.Ross - drilling oil wells takes money from OPEC. This just enables them to reduce output while keeping prices high.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 11:33AM
L. Ross,
There is no silver lining when freedom is taken away. It is not up to you, me, or anyone else what type of car someone else drives 98% of the time, even if they are by themselves.
The free market should dictate what kind of cars are made, period.
Robert Rosencrans| 5.20.09 @ 11:35AM
The first group of people required to drive these cares should be government employees. Watch how fast the parameters change then.
Pingback| 5.20.09 @ 11:45AM
Obama Nails the Coffin Shut « Depravity links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 11:47AM
Dustoff. I was driving at the point that his bile ridden ridicule of the things that Deborah was proud of (upbringing, accomplishments, etc), without relying on The Man, as those of Dave's ilk think we should do, was based on jealousy.
While I agree that it serves no purpose to engage hopelessly stupid people in debate, it IS fun to battle with them sometimes in order to point out the many flaws in their infantile world view. The way they leave themselves open for such ridicule, while telling us how much smarter they are than us, BEGS to have people call them out on their idiocy. I, for one, cannot resist the chance to do so. And it's not like they ever miss an opportunity to do the same thing. I guess it depends on one's mood. There are plenty of days where I just prefer to state my opinion & leave it at that. Of course, guys like Dave here, as you can see from above, will attack ANYONE'S post, even if it hasn't mentioned any of the bile that he has spewed. That also will get me to engage someone.
PS. I always enjoy reading your posts. Keep up the good work.
Son Of Sam | 5.20.09 @ 11:53AM
Hmmmmmm, let's see: consumers are going to pay higher costs up front, but there will be "significant savings" somewhere down the road, sometime in the future. Eventually. We promise. because after all, Big Government ObamaNazi politicians never lie, now do they?
Friends, patriots, fellow Americans, sane thinking rational people: this is nothing more than an attack on the middle class of this country. Whip up a big fakeass "crisis", demand hundreds of billions of dollars UP FRONT and make big promises about how we the people will eventually "benefit" from this. It's the same method used for the bank bailouts and the same crack-smoking logic that says we can "save" money through health care "reform", but first, we need a trillion dollars up front. It's a steaming pile of great galloping horseshit, and I propose that anyone who thinks its a great idea can live under those rules, while the rest of us who prefer to live like free grown up human beings can do it our way. That'd be the AMERICAN way.
stand strong until freedom dawns
Son Of Sam
http://www.samadamssos.bravehost.com/
Paul from SA| 5.20.09 @ 12:03PM
All of Obama's (and the Dems) changes include taking away our freedom and liberty.
Eric,
Two questions:
1. In your next article on this subject, can you explain how this number, 35.5 mpg actually applies? The Toyota CEO last night on Greta's show said the new federal requirement is applied differently to each company. Sounds suspicious.
2. How will the emissions be verified? When I lived in Phoenix, I had to have my vehicle tailpipe emissions tested every year. It was stupid, expensive, time consuming, and bad for the environment -- burning lots of unnecessary gas while waiting in a long line at a Federally approved testing facility where filthy, greasy workers worked like union drones (a 50% work pace). Yes, they sit in your seat. I was lucky at the time, having a salary job where I could take a long early or late lunch during slower testing times. Waiting time was still around 45 mins. Total wasted time = 90 minutes; imagine mulitplying that by the number of vehicles. Imagine the wasted gas. You had to keep your engine running because the test must be performed at full running temperature to get accurate tailpipe readings. And of course, everyone in AZ keeps their AC on as well. It was an amazing site; 100 cars and trucks lined up with their engines running for an hour to help the atmosphere. The tests were known to be a joke. Most cars pass easily. But it appeased the EPA and the greens and that's all that mattered.
They've pushing for this in Texas. They just want so badly for the air test results to be bad.
Once again, they didn't care about the environment, they just want to control us with more laws and regulations.
What's next? Boats? Lawnmowers?
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 12:23PM
L. Ross,
It is not in the Executive Branch's scope of duties or responsibilities to dictate emissions or gas mileage. At least not in the copy of the Constitution that I read.
This is just another pandering move to the environmentalist wackos who think evil trucks and suv's are destroying the planet. As an electrical contractor, I would have to ask the Obama administration, how I am going to haul ladders and tools with the equivalent of a Yugo?
I don't know about anyone else, but I LOVE MY GAS GUZZLING TRUCK! Even if I didn't need it for work, I would still drive one. I endured $4/gallon gas and would do it again. This ridiculous lie their trying to sell us about GM and others "building cars that people don't want" is a bunch of B.S.
Although I must say that their brilliant ethanol mandates have killed my fuel mileage. It's dropped by 3 miles per gallon. Thanks, EPA.
Norman Conquest| 5.20.09 @ 12:25PM
This Dave Mathews specimen doth protest too much, methinks. For someone who never tires of tolling the death knell of conservatism he seems awfully worried by it. Your faith in the great and wonderful Obama seems a bit shaky there Davey boy!
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 12:40PM
Navybrat.
Thanks.... (-:
Bob Miller| 5.20.09 @ 12:52PM
We used to have a government of laws, not men. The men (and women) in this sorry excuse for a government haven't bothered with a formal suspension of the rule of law. They just go on as if it's no concern, and we put up with this.
notoobama| 5.20.09 @ 12:57PM
Davie Mathews, you are a good excuse for Planned Parenthood and their topshelf seller,
Abortion.
Was it not legal when yo' mama was cursed with being knocked up with you?
God, you are hateful.
Ellis Wyatt| 5.20.09 @ 1:07PM
Once the apathetic American public starts to realize they have been duped into a substandard lifestyle power will change again in DC and much of the left's loony policies will be reversed, including this pipe dream. What does this little law change? - higher taxes to come (on gas and to subsidize purchasers of these cars), less choice, higher prices (not just on cars, but every product as costs are passed on), and more unemployment (jobs going overseas and companies having to cut payrolls to stay profitable due to draconian regulations).
ds80| 5.20.09 @ 1:11PM
... lost count of all the David Matthews posts I've skipped over.
'coz dontcha know? It's how he masturbates.
Ewww. David Matthews: Best left untouched.
Drew| 5.20.09 @ 1:26PM
Even the author of this article admits that any increases in the cost of cars will be offset by savings in the cost/consumption of gas. As he puts it, it's a "wash." So, there is no cost concern here. Second, it perfectly possible to produce cars of all sizes that are significantly more fuel efficient - detroit has resisted doing so because they are in the pocket of big oil and it's cheaper not to produce or invest in efficient cars/engine technology. In Europe, for instance, there has been a 45mpg standard in place for years. So, this isn't about punishing detroit or forcing people to drive small cars they don't want either. Plain and simple, this is about safegaurding the environment and reducing our consumption of gas and oil - neither of these things should be partisan or "opposed" by anyone.....except, perhaps, big oil companies....I guess there must be a whole lot of oil executives on this blog.
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 1:45PM
Thanks SO much, DS80, for implanting a G*dawful image in my my of some tool in Momie's basement, hunched over a keyboard. You've now ruined my day!
It IS funny, however.
louis tully| 5.20.09 @ 1:50PM
Never mind, American made cars. They were history anyway. What Obama did yesterday was decree that performance cars of any make or nationality shall be extinct here in the Socialist States of America. Wave goodbye not only to your pickups and SUVs, but also to your bimmers, AMGs, audis and the more interesting models from Lexus, Acura and Infinity too.
Its gonna suck, and I'm not even a big car guy.
btw, for all the pantywaists who worry about whether it is appropriate to call Obama and is supporters Socialists....this is what socialism looks like, you nit wits!
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 1:51PM
"In Europe, for instance, there has been a 45mpg standard in place for years."
Have you SEEN the cars they drive in Europe? Golf carts, most of them. And whether you admit it or not, these standards will FORCE consumers to buy vehicles they don't want & are less safe in, because those will be the only cars available. Thanks to the directions from the Congress & the Auto Maker in Chief. I'll bet Musollini is SO proud. Now, Drew, I need to go. I have to collect my bonus from Exxon & by a new Ferrari. Idiot.
imxio| 5.20.09 @ 1:54PM
C'mon, guys...Don't Feed The Trolls.
jim rice| 5.20.09 @ 1:58PM
why in the world are you equating "freedom" with being able to buy bulky, ugly, dangerous (to others) polluting cars? That's ridiculous.
The plan to drastically increase MPG is a long time coming. george bush SHOULD have done it. 6 1/2 years is plenty long enough to get the job done. Maybe the ones of you who are whining should instead put your stock in the ingenuity of American inventors and business people instead of complaining about how you're personal freedoms are being eroded b/c you can't buy a goddamned hummer.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 2:05PM
Drew,
It is not a "wash", as you put it.
First, the numbers submitted by the administration in a failed attempt to justify their meddling in the private sector are severely understated. This is simply going to cripple an already ailing industry, take away our freedom to choose what vehicle we purchase, and yes, require an increase in taxes. I hate to state the obvious, but who do you think makes the most money during the sale of a gallon of gas? I'll give you a hint: they reside in Washington D.C. Now that everyone is going to be buying less gas, what is the government going to do about the lost revenue? (cue Jeopardy music)....... Raise your taxes!
Second, the MARKET should decide what cars are manufactured and purchased by consumers, not the government. If that simple concept eludes you, nothing I say is going to make the slightest bit of sense anyway, so stop reading now.
Third, your comment about Detroit being in the pocket of "big oil" might be the most ridiculous statement I have heard in quite some time. Proof, please?
Finally, it seems you are very interested in following some rainbow bright illusion that is the European model. My advice to you: move. If Europe has done so many wonderful things and is this shining example of success you have created in your mind, why not go there? I hear they still have a few Yugos cruisin' the streets. You should fit in nicely.
One day you global warming nuts are going to wake up and realize that it was all a hoax. A pathetic scare tactic used by crooked "experts" like Al Gore in order to achieve wealth and control. Hopefully, when that day comes you haven't surrendered ALL of your freedoms in an effort to save the dying planet.
Northern Rebel| 5.20.09 @ 2:11PM
They'll have to pry my Hummer3 out of my cold, dead hands!
Northern Rebel| 5.20.09 @ 2:11PM
They'll have to pry my Hummer3 out of my cold, dead hands!
jim rice| 5.20.09 @ 2:13PM
Big J... your second "concept" is an economic theory. Up for debate and up for modification.
Should it still be legal to make lead based paint? Should it be legal to dump industrial waste in the pond behind your house? Should it be legal to broadcast porn over the public airways?
The government and the market should regulate each other. A free market society is inherrently a greedy and selfish creation, and it doesn't give a damn about you or anyone else. Only the dollar. It's a system of checks and ballances b/t the market and the government.
The roads are paid for by taxpayers. If the taxpayers voted in a government that will require stricter laws regarding exactly what may use those public roads, then so be it. That's how democracy works. Mob rule at its finest. And, if it's not, I need to see more of Janet Jackson's tit, please.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 2:14PM
Yeah, this is all about the enviroment. And algore isn't trying to get richer with the help of his useful idiots too!
Only bleeding heart liberal girly-men (and manly-girls) want to emulate Europe. It costs $2000 to get a drivers license in Germany.
DSAMMIS| 5.20.09 @ 2:16PM
35+ miles per gallon of what? It sure wont be ethanol with it's wimpish BTU content. I suggest they sell nitroglycerin as an additive. Now thats energy!!
Northern Rebel| 5.20.09 @ 2:17PM
I often wonder whether people that post antagonistic, mean comments, are like that in real life, or whether they feel safe hiding behind their keyboards.
Either way, they are pathetic, and cowardly, and I'd pity them, if devoting that much time to do so, was worth the trouble.
DSAMMIS| 5.20.09 @ 2:18PM
Checks and balances is between buyer and seller in the economy, not between greedy industry and the GOVernator.
jim rice| 5.20.09 @ 2:23PM
sure, it COULD be, if all humans weren't inherently greedy and most Americans weren't inherently short-sighted. Most of us are going to do what seems best for us in the moment with little or no thought to the future. And the market is happy to oblige and sell us the cheapest product with the most money that will get us to come back again.
There is not a system of checks and balances b/t individual consumers and large product providers. Everyone is greedy and we have no big vision. That is the balance that the government should provide.
Glen| 5.20.09 @ 2:26PM
No one here seems to get it! It really is no ones business what kind of car I drive or what I do in it. It's called individual freedom. Drive your golf carts of you so desire, I'll continue to get 14 MPG in my Ford pickup.
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 2:34PM
AMEN Glen!!! Preach on, brother. For even MORE horsepower & liberal enraging fun, cut off the catalytic converter. Many of the guys I knew in high school did that to their trucks. Of course, you have to live in a place where there's no emissions testing. Those places are becoming more & more rare.
somnolence| 5.20.09 @ 2:41PM
You can bet the jackleg mechanic business will thrive in the wake of this socialistic insanity. I usually drive a car anywhere from 12-20 years anyway; so I guess my 2004 Hyundai Sonata will keep purring until I reach my seventies-15 years from now.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 2:42PM
jim rice,
Thanks for the crash course in free market 101. I am one of those greedy and selfish byproducts of the system you appear to despise, as I write my own paycheck, and others as well.
Not surprisingly, you fall back on one of Obama's favorite justifications for driving this country to socialism at lightning speed: "I won, the rest of you be damned!" If it works for ya, well, good for you little jim.
You bring up lead paint, industrial waste in my backyard and broadcasting porn. Hmmmm.... I'm trying, but I can't for the life of me make a connotation between your examples and the topic at hand. Maybe it'll come to me, and I'll get back to you later.
Note to all liberal posters here:
THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON BASIC CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES: LIBERTY, EQUALITY AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT.
If you don't like it, get the H**L out!
We (conservatives) are not trying to "transform" this country into something it wasn't intended to be, we are trying to go back to where we started. Liberals are the ones trying to "transform" this country, and I am getting pretty sick and tired of it. Why do you feel the need to change America when there are so many countries out there where your view would be welcome?
True to form, jim you resort to profanity and absurd ranting to try and prove whatever point you have. That indicates that YOU don't even believe you.
Nice.
jim rice| 5.20.09 @ 2:44PM
no, glenn. You don't get it. Your individual freedoms end where others' individual rights begin.
AND you are using your environmentally unsound freedoms on PUBLIC roads that I helped pay for. If this one thing is so precious to you, then, as I said, we should also get rid of "decency" standards on the public airwaves. At least a little T&A isn't going to kill anyone.
Guy Wire| 5.20.09 @ 2:52PM
I find it interesting that liberals, such as this Dave Mathews person, continue to refer to anyone who disagrees with them as "uneducated." No matter how articulate or how well they make their point they are continually referred to as "uneducated."
Could it be that in libspeak "uneducated" really means "unindoctrinated"?
Glen| 5.20.09 @ 2:53PM
jim rice - Exactly, your rights end where mine begin.
The Democrats have set out to destroy this country and they will do it. The liberals of the USA have discovered they can vote themselves other peoples money. Thats when our republic ends. Before Obama ends his term we will be a full fledge Socialist country, we will no longer be on the US dollar as our money, and we will most likely be in some sort of union like the europeans consisting of the US, Canada and Mexico. Welcome to Obamas world.
drew| 5.20.09 @ 3:10PM
Big J, et al,
I didn't say it was a "wash" - the author of the article did.
"Meddling in the private sector..."? Pardon me? Shall I assume you were also concerned when Paulson and Bushco. "meddled" by spending billions in taxpayer money to "socialize" wall street? Bear Stearns? AIG? Freddie/Fannie? Talk about socialism. The banking industry is about 50 times as large - and far more integrated - than the auto industry is. Were you concerned about "socialism" and "freedoms" when Bushco. was tapping phone lines? How about when he was limiting FOIA requests/responses or curbing numerous free speech/press rights? If you want to have a balanced, objective, informed discussion about government intervention, let's have it.....to selectively criticise for the sake of Obama-bashing is silly, dangerous, and ineffective on all levels.
It was the "free market" that led to the downfall of Detroit. People aren't - and haven't been - buying their cars. Period. To suggest that upping mpg standards is what's killing Detroit is, again, selectively and subjectively critical and silly. Detroit was dead far before yesterday....and it had nothing to do with Barack Obama.
For those that wonder what the links between oil companies and Detroit are, you just need to Google it or pick up a book about the development of the highway system and the internal combustion engine. It's not a debatable point. Why do you think it was american auto companies and oil companies who were the two loudest voices opposing an increase in the fuel standards? maybe becuase american cars use a lot of oil/gas? hmmmm.....
To suggest that everyone should be able to do whatever they want, buy whatever they want, drive whatever they want, etc., because "that's what freedom is" is, again, silly and impractical - it's just not how things work. That would be anarchy - not civil society. Not only is there not enough oil on the planet to allow us to continue to use it at the pace we are, it's totally ineffcient and expensive to do so...and, it requires a dependence on foreign countries that may be strategically dangerous for all sorts of reasons. So, whether you believe that 150 of industrial production, pullution, and development has impacted the environment or not, there are plenty of good reasons for the government to regulate vehichles and emissions....many of which were GOP talking pts in the last election.
No, they don't all drive golf carts in Europe (or Australia or Japan - it's not just a Europe thing). In fact, they drive an awful lot of BMWs, Mercedes-Benzs, Saabs, Volvos, Hondas, Toyotas, VWs, Range Rovers, and Audis (in fact many Euro taxi fleets and government vehicles are exclusively these types of cars)...and, increasingly, they drive a lot of SUVs and larger American cars. However, cars/trucks produced for those markets are simply made with better fuel efficiency and there are, in some cases, taxes on cars that pollute more/use more gas. These types of "consumption" taxes are used in all sorts of instances in the US....
Obama doesn't want to raise your taxes. Period. He does want to raise taxes on the wealthy - those making over $200,000 a year. The middle class - or what's left of it - is due for a tax cut per Obama policy (about $800 billion worth of cuts or refunds). Unfortunately, the "free market" has made $200,000 a salary out of reach for the overwhelming majority of Americans (only about 5% of Americans earn that much or more). The scare tactics around taxes is confusing to me....especially because it's being gobbled and spit back out up by people who stand to get a tax cut. Odd indeed.
jim rice| 5.20.09 @ 3:11PM
Welcome to our flawed Democratic system. The winners win and the losers are out. The next time there's a vote you have your chance again. THAT is the beauty of this country. Not that we hold on to the ideals of some 18th Century wealthy white men.
And I spelled out the connection clearly. The roads are public property. The airways are public property. If you can agree that the government can control one, then they can control the other. If they can't control what goes on the public roads, then they can't control what goes on the public airways. There's my logic... again... please feel free to point out the flaws.
And you missed something else that our country was founded on, and that is the ability of the People to control the Government. If the People want to change the way this country is run, then that is what should happen. Being in the minority sucks, but it doesn't give your biggoted remarks about "get the hell out" any substance whatsoever.
This country is wonderful precisely b/c it is adaptable. The founders built it in. The ability to change. The country decided it was time for a change, and that's what we're doing. Now it's up to you to get the hell out if you don't like it and if you're too weak-willed to go about affecting the change (or the stagnation) that you believe is best using the channels available to you. This country is mine and yours equally. Just turns out that, in this particular moment in time, more people agree with me. It will change. Hell, I will change - I swear it. If the Republicans would put up a real candidate who is about politics and not religion and social "values."
And, honestly, I think it would be a tragedy if you "got the hell out." Opposing voices are a blessing to one another.
Crusader| 5.20.09 @ 3:15PM
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people in this country who think like the liberal posters on this board. Amazing.
Anyway just a thought. So when my car gets 35.5 mph and I gas up less often, how's the gubmint gonna make up all the lost revenue in gas taxes it is losing by folks not having to gas up as much? Multiple choice:
A - Cut wasteful spending
B - Increase gas tax
If you guessed "A" you're an idiot and likely a liberal.
So if my car saves me somewhere in teh neighborhood of $1600, which by the way since the standards don't go into effect until 2016 is that $1600 in 2009 dollars or $1600 in 2016 dollars? Oh anyway, I was saying, if I somehow save $1600 but raise the gas tax on me and now it costs me even more to fuel up do I really save?
Another multiple choice:
A - Yes
B - No
If you answered A you ARE an idiot and a liberal, something not mutually exclusive in this country.
Finally to the chap who talked about how Europe has blah blah blah. It amazes me too that people in America would want to live like Europeans. I am about to retire from the military and recently did a stint in Italy. Beautiful country. Would not want to live there.
On the economy gas cost about 1.50 euros a LITER when I left. That is again 1.50 euros a LITER, not gallon. 1.50 euros (when I left) was about $2.30 or so, give or take. For a LITER of gas. So please don't tell me by making cars more "efficient" gas will be cheaper. It won't. Plus they drive some ugly little Euro-weenie cars that any red-blooded American male (not girly lib-males/metrosexuals/tree-hugger granola-eating wimps) wouldn't be caught dead in.
I would go into how most houses don't even have central heat or air and that if you run too many appliances (like toaster, washing machine, and microwave) at the same time you will pop your breaker box because, oh yeah, electricity is rationed there too, but you all probably don't want to hear about all that. Any place where 10,000 people die because it gets a little hot, well, I don't think we should want to emulate, but that's just me.
Rome was nice though.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 3:15PM
The democrat party is full of girly-men (and manly-girls) who are whipped and are made to go to modern opera. Yuuuck! I'd rather make-out with Janeane Garofalo...no...strike that. Given that choice, I'd rather make-out with a shotgun with a hair trigger.
Liberal girly-men get chained to these femi-nazis and end up eating tofu and promoting the eco-terrorist religion.
Want proof? I give you Don Imus.
Glen| 5.20.09 @ 3:26PM
Just because I complained about Obama in no way was ment to imply that I am a republican. Bush was just as wrong as Obama, he just spent differently. I consider myself a Constitutionalist. This coutry took the wrong path around 1900 or so. It been downhill since with a few artificial feel good monents from time to time. We the People have no say so in what goes on. That passed long ago. It is only forums like this where we can even be heard. And it is only a small relief valve for me.
daboss| 5.20.09 @ 3:38PM
Crusader :
Venice is nice too - wife and I loved it there.
Drew| 5.20.09 @ 3:38PM
Oh, I see now. Increasing fuel efficiency is bad idea because it might cost people some money. In short, it's not all about cost. Public policy decisions aren't all made on cost alone. Especially not when the costs/gains are debatable and are both unknows at this stage.
Again - for the third time - I wasn't claiming that anyone was poised to save money when fuel efficiency standards went up. The author of the article made the point - not me - that it would be about a "wash" - i.e. any savings realized from buying less gas would be offset by increased car costs and/or fuel taxes. Without knowing the specifics - for a range of reasons - this seems like a resonable prediction....there won't be huge swings either way.
I hate granola. I'm not "girly." I'm not a registered Democrat. I have never been to the opera. I grew up in the south and was in the Army for 12 years. My father and my grandfather were in the military (and went to the Naval Academy). My brother is in the reserves. I resent all the stereotypes and name calling - it's ignorant and besides the point in every instance.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 3:42PM
Crusader,
Thank you for your service, brave patriot. You make the same point that I made a post or two back (regarding the increased fuel tax), but it appears to be a complete waste of time to resort to factual information with these nuts.
Drew, using "et. al" does not make you appear smart to the rest of us, for future reference. Just sayin'.
Drew, jim and others: The water is starting to boil, while you jokers are looking at each other saying "Wow, it sure feels good in here. This water used to be so cold!".
Good luck with that.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 3:45PM
Drew:
Thank you, your father and grandfather for your service. Political differences aside, I have a fondness for our military that cannot be described with words.
Please go back and re-read the article. The author didn't say it was a "wash", the libs cramming this down our throats did to try and justify this socialist move. And that's exactly what this is.
Syrin| 5.20.09 @ 3:46PM
EVERYONE needs to read all the posts of Dave Matthews as they are completely typical of the liberal mindset which is so callously and systematically destroying this country. First of all, it's factually wrong, but he presents his errors with "everyone knows" when the REVERSE is actually true. He never bothers to actually check to see if he's right so he makes up facts and dares us to do the work to verify his accusations that he is too LAZY to do himself. He just throws enough crap out there and hope some of it sticks. The other aspect is the need to keep talking about how conservatives are dead. It's a complete lemming mentality that they spread all over the web. So if conservatism is dead, why tell us about it? It's like the 75 pound kick with Coke rimmed glasses in high school going around telling everyone how tough he is cause he knows karate. He hopes that if he says it enough, it will become true. Poll after poll shows that america is actually shifting MORE conservative as Obama keep his assault on america in full throttle. Obama the man, the image, the teleprompter still is popular but polls about his policies show they are viewed VERY unfavorably. It's true across the board even on social issues like abortion. Yet this nim rod keeps shouting that conservatives are dead. Why? Because he KNOWS the reverse is true and he FEARS it !! It's part of being the Obeyme Youth fueled by ACORN and voter fraud. I want everyone to see the shallowness for what it is. It's transparent as can be, and is the same from virtually all liberal posters just like him. They are almost cookie cutters made at DailyKOS.org or whatever lib place they mill about.
Anyone who believes these changes will cost "just" $1600 per new vehicle is FOOLING themselves. The direct and indirect costs are going to be substantial, and yes, they will kill the US auto industry. I'm fine with that as all it is at this point is another prop piece for Obeyme's labor union voters. I'm going to LOVE to watch the UAW try to run Chrysler, especially now with the auto czar telling them what to do. Oh, it's going to be a thing of beauty.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 3:46PM
Oops, forgot your brother, Drew. Thank him too!
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 3:49PM
"Meddling in the private sector..."? Pardon me? Shall I assume you were also concerned when Paulson and Bushco. "meddled" by spending billions in taxpayer money to "socialize" wall street? Bear Stearns? AIG? Freddie/Fannie?"
Maybe you weren't listening, or maybe you hear only what you WANT to hear, but there were PLENTY of us who screamed bloody murder when all of that went down. Just b/c Bush did it, doesn't mean we agree with it 100%. Only brainwashed twits like you have that facet to your political lives.
"It was the "free market" that led to the downfall of Detroit. People aren't - and haven't been - buying their cars. Period."
Oh boo hoo. The EVIL free market killed DeToilet. I know you didn't learn this in school, but that's how CAPITALISM works. See, consumers take their money to places where it's best spent. US cars have sucked for quite some time. Their durability is their biggest problem. Let's be honest, when you make cars that have fuel pumps that crap out at 60,000 miles, or crappy transmissions, people aren't going to spend their hard earned money on them. If Detroit had been making more durable cars, & not had the albatross of the UAW around their necks (labor costs, pay rates, etc), they might have been able to compete with the Japanese.
So, the lesson is, in our formerly capitalist system, companies that make crappy products, go out of business. Companies that fill the need with better products take their place, & the market is better for it because this promotes competition. It is not the business or the responsibility of the Government (aka We the People [taxpayers]) to decide ANY of these things. Yet they are doing so now, cheered on by useful idiots such as yourself. You must be so proud.
Drew| 5.20.09 @ 3:54PM
Big J,
Thanking people for their service - in the midst of an unrelated conversation about gas - and using folksky, casual language doesn't make you more of an American or more entitled to your opinion.
Ignorning my points, and choosing to focus on non-issues like my use of "et. al" instead, is revealing indeed. I used it for practical reasons - nothing more.
The damage done to this country - and our freedoms and rights - across Bush's two terms of is almost unmeasurable. This country has a long tradition of progressive, liberal politics - the sprint back to the 1950s that the GOP appears engaged in is not only on the wrong side of history, it simply doesn't represent policies/positions that resonate with the majority of Americans.
Never mind Europe - I'm very happy here, thanks. But, there are lots of conservative countries for "traditionalists" like yourself too....where there are huge wage disparities and shrinking middle classes, outsized military spending and budgets, curbs on the press and free speech, more guns in the streets than they know what to do with, and anarchy ("freedom") in the capital markets....I would suggest Russia, much of South America, huge swaths of Africa, and Pakistan as starters. Good luck with that.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 3:56PM
Drew,
Why are are you here?
"How about when he was limiting FOIA requests/responses or curbing numerous free speech/press rights?" Back it up; cite one instance.
"Shall I assume you were also concerned when Paulson and Bushco. "meddled" by spending billions in taxpayer money to "socialize" wall street? Bear Stearns? AIG? Freddie/Fannie?" Correct assumption, skippy.
"...wonder what the links between oil companies and Detroit are, you just need to Google it or pick up a book about the development of the highway system and the internal combustion engine. It's not a debatable point. " Spare us the paranoia, the conspiracy schtick and your un- "debatable" sense of entitlement.
And European driving habits are shaped as much, if not more, by population densities as economic or environmental concerns.
Moreover, we don't buy into wealth envy around here. As for me, I grossed right at 60k last year as a soldier; the over 200k guy- I got his back, not yours. You don't have a job to offer me when I'm done trying to keep up with twenty year olds.
Take your pussy Bushco whining and piss off. And I have been to the opera; it's awesome.
Why are you here?
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 4:00PM
Never mind. Forget I mentioned it.
I have not ignored your points, I simply explained how useless they were to any rational individual.
You are the one ignoring points. 95% of the points listed on this page.
How's the weather in your world? Oh, that's right, the big evil truck and suv's all those horrible rich people are driving are polluting it to extinction.
Sucks to be you, man.
By the way, I'll stick with the country our founding fathers envisioned, fought and died for. Not this new "progressive", politically and environmentally correct one you seem to be in favor of.
Drew| 5.20.09 @ 4:01PM
NavyBrat,
I wasn't suggesting - at all - that we should be sad that the free market killed Detroit....very much he opposite. I was refuting the claim by others that increasing fuel standards was somehow to blame. C'mon man, read my posts and others first, respond second.
Just because you criticized Bush in previous posts doesn't mean it's ok to subjectively criticize Obama in a vacuum and paint him with all sorts of labels and generalizations. Many seem to be making claims that "socialization" - or government intervention in markets - is a purely liberal/Obama policy - I was reminding the group that it really has nothing to do with parties or the man in the Office....and, on a relative scale, what happened under Bush in the banking sector is far more significant and far-reaching than anything Obama has done with Detroit....
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 4:03PM
Doorgunner:
When work picks back up, I'd hire you in a New York Minute. I bet your one heck-of-a wire puller and pipe bender. Ever think about becoming an electrician?
Glen| 5.20.09 @ 4:10PM
Doorgunner - isn't it obvious? Drew wants to degrade this country same as Obama does. I still don't get why they choose to put the USA down just like the main stream media but they do. People like this want to make America the bad guy.
He may be no more qualified to hold his position than Obama is. Until Barack produces his real birth certificate he isn't my President.
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 4:12PM
So not only are you an idiot when it comes to politics, Drew, but you're just a flat out ass when people try to compliment you on something other than your political views. Thanks for this deep insight into your lack of maturity.
As for the countries you listed, they sound more like garden spots for pukes like you. You know, places where the despotic central governments have so degraded the quality of life that anarchy reigns supreme. Minimal regulation of markets is not "anarchy." Spare us your lame hyperbole. I'm sure that all of the countries that have regulated every aspect of the market are doing quite well. Oh, wait, those countries are now on the ash heap of history & they only killed MILLIONS in the names of "social & economic justice." Government can't even run Social Security & Medicare, yet you have enough confidence in them to let them legislate equal out comes in life & pick winners & losers in the market?! You're beyond naive if you believe they're capable of doing ANYTHING efficiently.
"This country has a long tradition of progressive, liberal politics - the sprint back to the 1950s that the GOP appears engaged in is not only on the wrong side of history, it simply doesn't represent policies/positions that resonate with the majority of Americans. "
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that historical reference. Seems to me that it was the GOP that got LBJ's Civil Rights Act passed. It was also the GOP that got the Voting Rights Act passed. It was Democrats who were the chief proponents of segregation. Bilbo, Bull Connor, & George Segregation Now Segregation For-EVAH Wallace were all Democrats. And this fight goes all the way back to the civil war. So would you care to tell us again, how the GOP has been on the "wrong side of history?" From the history I know (you know, REAL history, not the drivel with which you've been indoctrinated), it looks as if the Dems can lay sole claim to that phrase.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 4:12PM
Big J,
I take that as high praise. Thank you, sir. Hold that in abeyance, though. The alert call came Monday, and I requested six more years on Tuesday. And as a crewchief, I'm primarily a wrench-turner.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:17PM
Crusader
++++++
You hit it right on the head. I was in Italy two years ago. From Naples all the way up. Had a Fiat that was a rattle trap. Many of the cars & trucks are not gas powered and man do the smoke.
The cost of fuel is so high because they use the tax to pay for their mas-trans system that can't even support it's self.
Plus don't get me going about their EMS system...
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:19PM
Doorgunner.
And as a crewchief, I'm primarily a wrench-turner
+++++++++++++++++++
Damn Mechs, you can never find them when you need them.
Should i tell you how beer cans can work for a quick repair. LOL Damn Huey's, how they stayed in the air was shocking.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 4:27PM
Noooo, milage regs had nothing to do with killing the car companies.
1960's- Thriving car companies, muscle cars.
1970's- Girly-men in the democrat party force CAFE regs and emission nonsense.
1980's- We get cars like the Chevette, K-car, Escort, etc.
By the 90's all cars looked the same, so people started buying SUVs because they had style, were safer, and could haul more than a suitcase. But it was too late. Union legacy costs were about to come back to haunt them.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 4:27PM
Dustoff,
Say, you're not listed on the -12 as an MP, are you? We just lost the last of our Huey's in our state last week. Yes, they were of the hoist and litter variety. Amazing history justifying enormous pride.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 4:29PM
Lost as in turned in for 'Hawks. Sorry.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:29PM
Drew
Oh, I see now. Increasing fuel efficiency is bad idea because it might cost people some money.
++++++++++++++++++++++
You understand at one point you can only get so much from BTU's and Stoichiometric.
The only thing you have left is to make the car smaller & much lighter. Now you can't have that and all these safety systems too. Weight is your killer.
I could go on, but many people like you just want to world to live like you. Sorry people just don't think that way.
L. Ross| 5.20.09 @ 4:30PM
I gotta tell you guys, it is evident that you all love your big cars. I have a little Saturn Sky redline. Two liter engine, upgraded intercooler and exhaust, about 280 hp. Drop dead gorgeous, gets about 29 mpg on regular gas, and goes like a raped ape. Maybe, just maybe, you could take a look at something different when you go car shopping. I don't know. I understand the arguments about freedom and all, but frankly all the automakers were aggressively advertising and pushing gas guzzlers on us for about the past decade, because they made so much money on those cars. Maybe, just maybe you don't like your big gas guzzlers as much as you think you do. Maybe you like them because of clever advertising and hype. How many people with 4wd ever get off the road, anyway?
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 4:31PM
Doorgunner & Dustoff. What service were you 2 rotor heads in. When my Dad was in the Navy & after he retired, a couple of his closest friends were in the Navy Seawolf sqaudron. They transported SEALs, conducted SAR missions, & provided CAS for ground elements. These guys are some of the toughest old buzzards I ever had the honor of knowing. Lord knows that the pilots & their crews were cut from the same bolt of cloth as the boys from the 8th Air Force in WWII, with all of the dangers they faced. I'm sure not much has changed.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:32PM
Doorgunner.
I came back home in 1973. Went to FT Hood for a few months with the 507th Medivac then home. (discharge) "Medic"
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:36PM
L. Ross.
How many people with 4wd ever get off the road, anyway?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
All the time. For fun and I'm also with Mountain Rescue. We go after the green freaks who think a day in the mountains is a easy... WRONG
PS. I also have a turbo/intercooled Conquest.
NavyBrat| 5.20.09 @ 4:38PM
L Ross. Not asking to be snide, but do you think that your souped up Saturn will be immune from the cascade of regulations that are sure to follow these? I don't have a Saturn, but I DO have a minimally souped up 2004 Acura TSX (all it has is a K & N Filtercharger & low restriction exhaust), & while it ALSO gets killer gas mileage & goes like a "raped ape" (I LIKE that, I'm stealing it, ok), I'm worried that there will be more regulations down the road to crack down on "shade tree hot rodders" like you & me. Even if we ARE tricking out Saturns & rice rockets.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 4:49PM
NavyBrat,
Former Marine, '81-'87, currently full-time Army National Guard.
L.Ross,
It's not about the car for me; I drive a Honda and ride a Beemer. It's about rationing, or "each according to his needs." No one owes me a gallon of gas, nor do I want to tell you how much you can use. Long before we run out of gas, market dictates will generate alternatives and as jim rice says "the market is happy to oblige and sell us the cheapest product with (for?) the most money that will get us to come back again. " Point being, it ain't owed to me and I don't have to buy it.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 4:51PM
Hey Doorgunner and Dustoff,
I was a Prop & Rotor puke back in Desert Storm. I hated working on Hueys, too much grease. Cobras were nice to work on. Blackhawks too.
I had a sheetmetal guy tell me how he found a beer can (Bud I think) used to repair a bullet hole in a Huey at Ft. Bliss in '90. They even found it in the log book. Went all the way back to Vietnam. I can't remember what year.
Doorgunner, thanks for doing the job I didn't have to do back then. I salute the service of both you gentlemen. Shop plt. rules, Maint. plt. bites!
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:51PM
Doorgunner
Say, you're not listed on the -12 as an MP, are you
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
O-man. Sorry bud. I've been out of the service for quite sometime. MP?? You mean Mil-Police.
You also mean a "penetrator" to get past the tree tops?
Joe| 5.20.09 @ 4:53PM
He certainly did nail the coffin. Like millions of ours I will not by cars built in China and own by the Gov't. Never!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 4:57PM
Nick
Dang. That Huey got some hours on her.
Grease...LOL, hey if you were that old. I bet you would leak too. Like (Sh*thooks. LOL
Ed| 5.20.09 @ 5:03PM
We all owe a big debt of gratitude to David Mathews, Troll of the Realm. Does he have a real job? Does he live in a squalid artist's garret? Or, like the Phantom of The Opera, does he live in a subterranean Batcave?
The whole web wonders.
To Deborah:
We are all going to lose our pursuits of happiness while this Bozo is in power.
Big J| 5.20.09 @ 5:04PM
L Ross,
I wonder how that sucker would look with a 32' extension ladder strapped to the top?
Would it even stay stuck to the road?
Marc Jeric| 5.20.09 @ 5:04PM
This functional moron Dave Mathews would have been an ideal candidate for Gulag supervisor in the country from which I escaped; such a position would automatically make him a member of Plolitburo.
As for those Carter CAFE standards now increased by Abu Hussein from Kenya: since that supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah introduced them 30 years ago, about 3000 more dead on the roads are attributed to small car/big car collisions. Over 30 years that is 90,000 more dead Americans - Al-Qaeda terrorists wish to be that efficient; it takes thirty September 11's to get there. To hide this tremendous crime from the people the safety statistics have been falsified: these statistics on relative safety compare only small car vs. small car collisions, and big car vs. big car collisions - not small vs. big. Thus the beaurocrat hides his/her murder rate. Then there is the electric hybrid - just plug it in, yes? And electric power will come from where? And a family electric bill will stay the same? It will go up on the average from $150/month to $300/month - unless it is solar or wind power in which case it will go to $1,000/month.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 5:06PM
Dustoff,
Yeah, too many hours! When we found out we were going to the Saudi sandbox, they all got turned in for Blackhawks. My unit, 4/3 ACR, also had the old bubble style Cobras, I can't remember the model. Those got turned in too, for S-model Cobras.
drew| 5.20.09 @ 5:10PM
NavyBrat,
Both the The Voting and Civil Rights Acts - and most of the progressive ideas in them - were conceived and introduced by JFK and LBJ; Democrats. As you know, it was Republicans in 2006 who most recently fought to let the Voting Rights Act expire.
The reality is - which i fully understand and admit - that Democrat and Republican mean very different things now than they did in the 50s and 60s. As you know, "Democrat" and "Republican" labels and voting patterns had much more to do with regions of the country than policies. E.g., almost all "northern" Democrats supported the Civil Rights Act - the issue was with "southern" Democrats who opposed it....I wonder why.
The party names are not what matter - it's the progressive and liberal ideas that do....again, I'm not a registered Democrat and never have been. In fact, it was Teddy Roosevelt that ran under the first Progressive Party and I would put folks as diverse as Wilson, FDR and LBJ all in the same camp. So, while "Republicans" may have supported such thinking in the past (whether is be the 1960s or the days of Lincoln), the GOP of today is a vastly different party that openly shuns liberal/progressive policies and politics. To remind me that the GOP used to support progressive politics doesn't seem to help your arguments against them today.....if you're so proud of the progressive/liberal politics of 1960s-republicanism, why do you despise these types of policies so much today? I don't get it.
As for the continued claims by Nick and others that it was fuel efficiency standards that killed Detroit, do I need to remind you that companies like Honda, Nissan, and Toyota thrived by selling small, efficient, well made cars during the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, etc?...and then, of course, beat detroit to market with hybrid cars and even hybrid SUVs....
Doorgunner, since you asked:
Re: Bush impeding the FOIA, a quick-and-dirty Suits & Sentences review shows the simple facts. Consider: the Defense Department completely granted 61 percent of FOIA requests in Fiscal 1998. In Fiscal 2007, the Defense Department completely granted only 48 percent of FOIA requests. And the Pentagon wasn't alone. The Interior Department fully granted 64 percent of FOIA requests in 1998 but only 47 percent in 2007. The invaluable annual FOIA reports filed by federal agencies provide the numbers in detail if you're interested.
As for Bush actively curbing free speech, the fact that you're debating this point is almost unbelieveable - but, this piece from - ironically - The American Conservative magazine does a great job outlining the administration's overt curbing of personal freedoms and constitutional rights: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/dec/15/00012/
ds80| 5.20.09 @ 5:11PM
Sorry, NavyBrat. I'm serious about skipping the wart's posts, though. There are too many intelligent contributors here to waste even a breath on that detritus.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 5:15PM
Nick.
I flew in UH-1d. 57th medical detch. Tan Son Nhut. (Kelly's crazies)
Yeah it sounds weird... We were crazy when it came to (dustoff/medical evac) So the name stuck. Kelly is for Capt Kelly who started the whole Dustoff thing.
Little history. (-;
Pat| 5.20.09 @ 5:21PM
Very slick move by Obama. GM and Chrysler, and possibly Ford, will be nationalized so Obama owns the problem now. How to make sure you win this one - how to force Americans to buy a car from Government Motors? What if we did this - offer Americans an attractive rebate when buying a new, high gas mileage Obamamobile. Then GM can charge a hefty price for each new car, the price is then reduced by the generous "green" rebate to the customer, GM reports positive profits for the first time in just about forever and the taxpayers subsidize GM's bottom line just as they're doing now - but for a worthy cause which makes us all feel good about ourselves.
Everyone wins, except the taxpayers of course - what else is new, right? Obama is a superhero, complete with red cape and matching boots. He solved global warming, he restored the American auto industry and he made us less dependent on foreign oil.
But how to direct the rebate subsididies to Government Motors and not Toyota? It should be interesting to see how he rewards the UAW and pacifies the Toyota driving Californians while rooking the taxpayers so they feel grateful for the privilege. Look for future R&D plus design subsidies to Government Motors so they can get a running start on the Japanese and Germans - without hurting Fiat, they're American now.
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 5:22PM
Dustoff,
Was that the 1st Cav?
Thanks agian for your service.
ben| 5.20.09 @ 7:39PM
If I'm paying to build the car why should I have to buy it too?
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 7:58PM
Nick| 5.20.09 @ 5:22PM
Dustoff,
Was that the 1st Cav?
Thanks agian for your service.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nope.
The 57th medical is a unit by it's self. I remember the guys from the 1st of the 9th Cav.
Dang, bringing out the cobwebs. (-:
Robert Rosencrans| 5.20.09 @ 8:28PM
This is in response to Melvin at 7:10AM. Melvin claims that there are those who have never lived in a slum so they got fat off the backs of the poor who live in those slums.
No, Melvin, it's just the opposite. The Great Society permanently ingrained a welfare social caste into the American society and in fact, those people lived off the largess of the hard working middle class. In some cases those who worked to support the welfare class lived from paycheck to paycheck while various political entities purchased votes of the lower socio-economic classes with the money of the working class.
If you want to eradicate slums, eradicate public schools that are failing and eradicate social programs which are a permanent hand out, not a hand up.
Robert Rosencrans| 5.20.09 @ 8:30PM
To: Marc Jeric
Beautiful post.
Mike| 5.20.09 @ 9:06PM
These new auto standards are the single most irresponsible idea the Obama administration has made to date. If it is strictly enforced, I think Ford will join GM and Chrysler in bankruptcy. Most of the auto parts suppliers will go bankrupt as well.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 9:20PM
Sorry Dustoff, was out for a ride. "MP" as in maintenance test pilot. I'm a "CE" on the -12.
Dustoff| 5.20.09 @ 9:41PM
Doorgunner...
LOL.... I'm a MEDIC!!!! Yes I know how to fly Huey's. My Capt made sure ALL could fly his bird if things went to hell. (man did that piss off many)
Thanks Buddy.
Doorgunner| 5.20.09 @ 9:59PM
Out-freaking-standing!
Friebs| 5.20.09 @ 10:46PM
Have a fast glance at this---from the 1963
congress------
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control for teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which is under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to 'eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.'
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. 'Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.'
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them 'censorship' and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as 'normal, natural, healthy.'
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with 'social' religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a 'religious crutch.'
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of 'separation of church and state.'
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the 'common man.'
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was a minor part of the 'big picture.' Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture -- education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use united force to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connelly reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike."
The above was placed in the Congressional Record on January 10th, 1963
HOW MANY OF THESE ARE IN PLACE OR TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW????
It's time to wake up AMERICA
gavin| 5.20.09 @ 10:51PM
when reading the amspec last year i noticed one Deb Kenward or somesuch.I claimed that "DebWAD"was a plant by amspec to get those comments going.I will again suggest that the davveypoo machooos is a front proposed by the amspec comment moderators who have boredom issues.cowinkydink (coincidence) i do not think so.
Deborah D | 5.21.09 @ 6:55AM
Oh, good grief, gavin...that's ridiculous.
The American Spectator is a legitimate, honest media organization -- not like left-wing websites that might do what you're implying. Dave Mathews is a liberal troll. We have several, and they are indicative of Obama's warriors. Typical that someone would cry "conspiracy" when that side is shown for its utter stupidity and anti-American views.
Albert Frevele| 5.22.09 @ 1:10PM
Judging by the volume of messages from David Mathews, one must conclude that he has a very large burr under his saddle. And a very large chip on his shoulder. And a very large self-image problem. He is big on calling others idiots, but his messages betray limited intelligence and no logic whatsoever. He says let the auto companies go out of business and problem solved! I guess it's easy to laugh over other people losing their jobs, thie businesses, and their livelihoods. Would this person have a similar reaction to losing his own job? (Clearly he has no actual business of his own, he is just too stupid to run a lemonade stand, much less a real business.) And as for letting the auto companies go out of business, it is the liberals who want to bail them out and sieze control of these private businesses (which is unconstitutional, but the Supreme Law of the Land is of no consequence to liberals.). And please stop calling Geroge Bush a conservative. He isn't and never was. Mr. Mathews' infatuation with the colossal failure that is Socialism just proves that he is a parrot for Socialist tyrants and thei underlings in the school system. Mr. Mathews is a useful idiot who really does not know what he is talking about but just loves to see his own words in print, especially when turning an intelligent debate into screaming contest between spoiled children, whith himself as the loudest and most obnoxious screamer. Grow up Mr. Mathews. You make yourself a fool. You should be embarrassed.
ted logan| 5.22.09 @ 9:39PM
What is the underlying principle for President Obama? I suspect it is that cars are bad - for the earth, for the country and for the individual. This plan is going to kill the car makers and that is the desired outcome.
wankel| 5.22.09 @ 9:48PM
>> Well, I want to know if the messiah has figured out how I will haul my horsetrailer and my boat
Stephanie, I have wondered the same about my camping trailer and diesel pickup. Eventually we will learn that such baubles are trappings of the elite unavailable to the masses and must be purged. Perhaps we should acquire a paint roller and read accounts of the life of The Holy School Marm's father.
mchip10 | 5.23.09 @ 11:15AM
It's obvious Dave Matthews hasn't graduated into maturity yet, much less into the 21st century. His depressive instead of progressive mentality is what is crushing the country into econimcal disaster. The article makes valid points, I haven't heard anyone disput them. The new MPG standards are a "vision" that doesn't think through of how it affects 10 other "regulations" that the Fed already has in place. The Obama-nation is obviously not bright enough to think things to the point were it is thoroughly researched and properly laid out where it would actually benefit the country. I'm willing to give him a chance, but I would like a plan of sometype without doing nothing but giving in to the "good idea fairy" that seem to be so prevalent in the Executive Office. Rookie seems to be the perfect word to describe Obama so far. He could use somebody who knows the business end of things. He is clueless and his cabinet easily reflects it. Say some prayers we will all need it....
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