The American Spectator

Liberal Reader| 9.21.09 @ 7:04PM

Socialized medicine is NOT what they have in Canada folks.

It helps to have some INFORMATION.

Socialized medicine is like the VA for the whole country: it's where the government OWNS and RUNS all means of providing health care.

It's what they do in ENGLAND. It is NOT what they do in Canada.

In Canada, they have a SINGLE PAYER system, like Medicare, which covers everyone. You are free to buy private insurance if you wish, but few do.

In France, the government guarantees every coverage but non-profit, non-governmental corporations actually manage the system. France has the best health care system in the world.

Terms like "social medicine" are generally not that helpful.

We should figure out what will WORK best and implement it.

Fuck labels.

David Knight| 9.21.09 @ 9:40PM

I think the term "socialized medicine" is understood to mean a system where medical decisions are made by society instead of by the individual. That's an important distinction.

Frankly, I don't care about the details of how the systems in Canada, UK & France work if the government is making the health care decisions instead of the people. The point of the video is that people aren't getting timely treatment (as measured by long waiting times) or quality treatment (as measured by lower survival rates).

Obama alternately holds up Medicare/Medicaid as a model for how the new system should work, then talks about how Medicare/Medicaid is so wasteful that we could fund health care for everyone by fixing it. He needs to make up his mind. And before he has any credibility, he needs to show us that he can fix a system that both Democrats and Republicans have been unable to control for over 40 years.

If France has the best health care system in the world (according to who, the French? rotfl) then why do Canadians come to the US for health care.

More to the point, where in the US Constitution does it say that the federal government has the right to deny or provide health care to anyone? I'm having trouble finding it in my Constitution -- maybe you have a different version.

tonypal| 9.21.09 @ 9:56PM

I predict some enterprising liberal (sorry for the label, liberal reader) will use the Necessary and Proper clause to justify this latest nonsense. Of course, they won't know what the hell they're talking about, but it will make them feel good.

HayeksHeroes| 9.23.09 @ 3:11AM

It's progressive not liberals. But pejoratively it's regressives.

tonypal| 9.21.09 @ 9:42PM

Socialized medicine, single payer, happy-time medical insurance or, in keeping with your new approach of "fuck labels", that which shall not be identified. Any plan for anything that eliminates both the profit motive and competition is doomed to failure.

As for France having the best health care system in the world, says who? Besides, France is a dying country. To use a healthcare related term, they're on life support over there. They're destroying themselves with policies such as guaranteed lifetime employment, which probably appeals to you but is utterly unsustainable.

Anyway, I have tried hard to avoid labels, as I know you now find them abhorrent. Beware though, your fuck labels approach will go by the boards the next time you decide to call someone on this site some sort of name or use an epithet in any sort of descriptive manner when referring to someone. I suggest you perform some self-editing before submitting future posts, lest you be found guilty of that most heinous of sins, hypocrisy.

Conservative Reader| 9.22.09 @ 7:26AM

"You are free to buy private insurance if you wish, but few do. "

Better check your facts. While Canadians can purchase private insurance for non-covered services (ie vision), they can not buy private supplemental health insurance. The Brits, however, can and do.

Virginia Patriot| 9.22.09 @ 7:51AM

Liberal Reader,

1. Don't curse - it makes you look and sound stupid on the blogs and comments - it's not smart
2. We agree - let's drop the labels - like calling TeaPartiers 'nazi's, racists, haters, etc' - All this comes from the tolerant Left
3. I believe George Stephanopolis was smart to bring a dictionary to the Obama interview - it was an education on discussing ideas with a liberal - you need to continually make sure the terms are agreed to by all parties - in the case of Democrat Health care plans, you are right it is not socialist - it is fascist
4. On not paying attention to lables, note that government flu vaccine is now being rationed and the people last on the list are seniors - the most vulnerable to flu - so we don't have 'death panels' yet - just a rationing board that targets old folks - great a smart use of government - hurt the old first

Siegmund Wagner| 9.22.09 @ 8:48AM

A "Liberal Reader" writes f**k labels, while labeling him or herself.

Labels mean a great deal, because they tell us things and those whowould deny labels would essentially deny telling us something.

Socialism has as many as twenty different definitions according to experts, each saying something quite akin to statism versus freedom from the state in certain matters.

Liberal Reader likes the label, "liberal." Yet the enlightenment meaning of liberal is the antithesis of such remarks as the statist Liberal Reader makes.

What is certain is that all governments attempting to command and manage segments of an economy are being flummoxed by human penchant for getting something for nothing. As a result, there is never going to be enough money or the productivity to generate to "give" people what they want. That leaves the notion of earning what they want, the anathema to the modern statist who believes government is there to give. Some of us see government as a coercive force to take, and give back less than they take. From this perspective and not using labels, some of us oppose "what will work" because "what will work" often breaks in the hands of government.

Jobe| 9.22.09 @ 11:19AM

Right Liberal Reader! In Canada they don't buy private insurance until they find out that the disease or condition they have won't be treated by the national service until a month after they are dead. Oh, and I almost forgot. Your savior, Obama, will institute fines for those who fail to buy health insurance (not the same as health care) that cost about the same as the insurance that these unfortunates couldn't afford. Magically, they will be able to pay the fines. If they cannot, we have prisons for them, and those prisons have health care.

hector| 9.22.09 @ 2:54PM

Liberal Reader says, "France has the best health care system in the world."

Can we hear from the hundreds who died in the recent heat wave for lack of non-forced-vacationing docs?

What kind of health care system forces people to die when it's hot? Why, the best in the world, that's what.

DocJ| 9.23.09 @ 10:29AM

Liberal Reader: It helps to have some information, they don't have "single payer" in Canada anymore either. Anyone who actually believes France has the best health care in the world is drinking some serious kool-aid, keep drinking.

SLK350| 9.23.09 @ 3:26PM

First your language is very offensive! Have some class!

Secondly, Canada's system is horrible! I have friends there and they come here for health care. The wait time is horrific!

Thirdly, if France has such a great system, why don't you move there?

Lastly, why should we tear down the house when it just needs some drywall? The majority +80% are happy with their health care. Leave us alone and do something for the other -20% which really is about 10% if you remove the illegals. But no, they will be covered after our wonderful leaders approve amnesty!
If we address the fraud, tort reform, and allow insurance across state lines, we will reduce costs. Then create an HMO for legal, low income (Medicaid), disabled, COBRA recipients, those who cannot get insurance and small companies/ individuals who do not have coverage now; we have solved the problems. Even if the government helps subsidize it, it will still be far less expensive!

The bottom line is, THIS Health Care Reform is about government CONTROL!

Disabled Vet| 9.24.09 @ 2:37AM

So Liberal Reader are you a disabled veteran? Do you know anything about the VA healthcare system? If you don't know, don't comment. Yeah, and as a 60% rated disabled Vet I HATE the VA system.
Example:
1) waiting 4 hours to be seen in the ER
2) 3 month wait for doctor appointments
3) beaurocrats not caring for patients or patient rights.
4) Vets getting injected with HIV because needles were not clean or labeled correctly.
5) Lost patient data, again and again and again.
And I get all of this for free!!
Should I go on?? Bureaucracy kills!

Liberal Reader| 9.21.09 @ 10:49PM

David Knight --

You pretend that there are two options available, one in which "the government" makes health care decisions, and one in which "the people" or "individuals" make health care decisions.

Surely you do NOT believe that the latter is happening in this country today, right?

You couldn't be that stupid.

As long as there are "third payers," "the people" do not make their own health care decisions.

How is it that you've convinced yourselves that people who live in countries with longer life spans, better health, and higher standards of living have somehow ceded "choice" and "decisions" to their respective "governments"?

Do you think the people of Britain, Sweden, France, and Germany are simply mindless automatons, controlled by totalitarian bureaucrats?

I could say why you might think that, if you're a complete fucking ignoramus, but it's NOT how things are in these countries.

Please educate yourself a little better. You need MORE INFORMATION. You are making decisions based on the opinions of radio djs and corporate propaganda.

David Knight| 9.22.09 @ 12:05PM

No, unfortunately we haven't had a free market in health care in this country in the living memory of most people alive. We have Medicare setting arbitrary prices for health care that are so unrealistically low that it would bankrupt hospitals and state governments if they didn't shift the cost to others. We have counties deciding if private hospitals can open another hospital or buy an MRI machine and requiring the private hospitals to get "Certificates of Need" from their competitors -- county hospitals. And on, and on...

It would be nice to see real reform -- market reform -- as part of the debate. That would mean people would make more decisions about their health care and be in the position to benefit from wise decisions instead of the "third party" system created by IRS regulations or the "single payer" system that has already failed so miserably in Medicare and the socialist systems you think are so great. (I'm still waiting for some facts to back up your assertions.)

But people is the US do have more say so about their health care than in socialist countries. If you want a panel of bureaucrats to make all your health care decisions, then by all means, go somewhere else and become a ward of the state. But don't impose your decisions on the rest of us. Let us make our own decisions.

You've had a lot to say, but you haven't responded to the statistical facts presented in the video -- facts taken from European studies, by the way -- that people wait much longer for treatment in Europe and are dying because of it.

Finally, and this is my last word, I didn't put it in the video since I couldn't verify it to the satisfaction of skeptics like you, but a year and a half ago we had an Italian relative who died because she had to wait a ridiculously long time for treatment. She didn't have cancer. She didn't need some exotic drug or access to an MRI machine. She had a broken leg. While waiting - days - in severe pain for treatment she developed gangrene. Even then there was no urgency and she died from gangrene. Oh, there was one other important factor -- she was elderly. That means her aren't a high priority for bureaucrats.

Liberal Reader| 9.21.09 @ 10:50PM

tonypal --

Who told you France is a "dying country"?

Where did you come by this little gem?

I've heard Sean Hannity say such things, and Rush Limbaugh.

But I was wondering: what CREDIBLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION can you cite that has taught you that France is "dying"?

Are you a COMPLETE RETARD, or are you trying to parody a conservative, or what?

Shucky| 9.22.09 @ 5:04AM

the fertility level of native french is only 1.7, below replacement level. france's population is growing from non-french immigrants and their children.

E. Patrick Mosman| 9.22.09 @ 7:02AM

French health care at work oops on vacation!!
Thousands die in European heat wave http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.....-a14.shtml
Notice the source.
Under the NHS in England the long waiting list for tests, one can jump the line by paying out of pocket or having private health care, the difference between prompt service and long waits, wards in government hospitals or private rooms in private clinics. Obamacare would force all Americans into one plan fits all and Medicare Advantage would be killed off despite AARP's efforts to confuse the elderly.

Indiana Alex| 9.22.09 @ 8:26AM

Liberal,

How can you call others out as not being smart when you use statistics that have nothing to do with health care (i.e. life expectency), while ignoring those that have everything to do with health care (i.e. cancer suvival rates)?

It really makes you look like you're more into propaganda, which most people who have half a brain can spot relatively quickly.

Gordon Ginn| 9.22.09 @ 9:00AM

I am somewhat surprised that in this debate over health care, no one has raised the issue of governmental immunity. If an insurance company makes a wrong decision with regard to coverage, need for service, etc., at least you can bring a law suit. Admittedly, this is not an ideal solution, but if the government makes the same wrong decision you are denied even the remedy of a lawsuit because of the governmental immunity doctrine.

SLK350| 9.23.09 @ 3:30PM

True! AND, the government is suppose to a non-profit plan. How can the private insurance companies compete with that? They will have overhead, malpractice insurance which will be huge! This would put insurance companies out of business, thereby eliminating the "If you like what you have, you can keep it". The fact is, it will no longer be available! Many companies would rather pay the penalty which would be cheaper than paying for Health Care. Or, you will put some of these companies out of business!

Crabby Apple Mick Lee| 9.22.09 @ 9:09AM

Liberal reader should look up his stats a little deeper. In fact, the American and French systems are not all that much different in terms of the public–private mix of hospital and ambulatory care. There are two reasons French health outcomes differ from Americans.

One, the American population is more heterogenic than the French. Although, like America, France has been a land of immigration, America is much larger than France with more varieties of populations in its makeup. Typically, the minorities in America, either by economics or self-selection, are under-served which leads to vast differences in infant mortality, life expectancies, and disease. “Universal” healthcare in France affords care to its minorities—although a persistent minority of those stubbornly do not avail themselves to French healthcare. Both minority populations in France and America act as a drag in the overall health statistics; but America’s “drag” is much greater.

Two, there is a staggering difference in doctor’s pay. French physicians are paid about a third of what American physicians receive. This difference is the reason the ratio of healthcare costs per citizen are so favorable to France and the reason why overall statistics between France and America are skewed. Chained to a French physician’s income level, the American physician could barely cover his medical liability insurance and provide any ability to pay down the substantial medical education debt accumulated while training. Americans frequently complain about the high incomes physicians command; but moderating a doctor’s income cannot be done unless the costs of medical education and the costs of maintaining and protecting his practice are reduced accordingly.

Oh, socialism does not necessarily mean that the means of production belong to the State. If by one means or another the State processes a central command and control of the economy—that’s socialism.

Don Hinds| 9.22.09 @ 9:37AM

When the video says the IRS has created the problem, this is untrue. The IRS is the enforcer of rules created by Congress. Congress has created the problem of tax deductability, not the IRS.

David Knight| 9.22.09 @ 12:15PM

You may be right. I'm not sure if it was a regulatory ruling of the IRS or Congressional legislation that allowed employers to deduct insurance cost but denied that deduction to individuals.

But the point was that the "third party payer" system is a creature of the income tax code which is interpreted, administered and often modified by the IRS. It would be better if regulatory agencies didn't have the power to create and expand law but Congress has abdicated this responsibility many times and in many ways.

KrlyQ| 9.24.09 @ 9:47AM

Mr. Knight, I do not believe, under any circumstances, that the federal government should take over any more of the health care industry in this country. Health care decisions should be made by the individual. When I hear or read statements like the one the Liberal Reader made stating "As long as there are "third payers," "the people" do not make their own health care decisions." it infuriates me because it's a silly argument. This argument is essentially saying "you can't claim individual right to choose because you are already not making your health care decisions, so let's compound that injustice by taking any semblance of choice you have away and give it to the government" How ridiculous!
Would you be so kind as to tell me where I can find the statistics you sighted in the video? I know these figures to be true according to certain sources. I've heard these figures before on Dr. Levin's show, but have been unable to locate the specific show to remind me where he too got those figures.

Thank you.

Sunnie57| 9.23.09 @ 12:12AM

Let's not forget even in our own country in states, like Massachusetts (MA), that universal health care is a MESS.

In MA universal healthcare has resulted in longer waiting times, more costly insurance, and now MA is looking at having people choose a primary care physician who would coordinate their healthcare (sounds like those dreaded HMOs).

KrlyQ| 9.24.09 @ 9:50AM

100% correct Sunnie. I was born and raised in RI, though I have lived in Texas for the past 7 years. My sister and her family lived in Massachusetts and their health care system is the pits! My sister moved here to Texas last year; one reason being their lousy health care system.

electgogo| 10.29.09 @ 11:38AM

The contents of article are wonderful!!!Great!
brand new discounting Laptop Batteries
brand new discounting Laptop cpu fans