The American Spectator

Liberal Reader| 7.26.09 @ 7:46PM

Bandow --

You have some facts -- or "facts," rather -- wrong, and you present others in a way that is distorted.

Most Democrats are NOT pushing for another stimulus.

In newspapers (daily periodicals that report things that are actually happening) this fact has been repeatedly reported for at least two months.

There is NO movement in Congress towards a second stimulus package. There are, however, a host, a veritable host, of economists -- or "economists," rather -- who insist the stimulus was not big enough and needs to be supplemented.

The polls you site are really not all that important. Until the stimulus begins to take hold -- next year sometime -- people are going to be very vulnerable to the endless nonsense being broadcast 16 hours a day on right wing radio, and from other bogus sources of opinion. Or, rather, "opinion."

Patriot| 7.26.09 @ 7:52PM

Shrill, LibReader/Jeremiah; you're sounding so very shrill. Better go see your doctor for your condition--while you're still able to do so. Moron.

Liberal Reader| 7.26.09 @ 9:25PM

Biden makes a pretty good case for the stimulus package in today's Times.

Not that most of you are interested in reading anything that may challenge your view of things. But to the few who actually seek out opposing views, you might want to check this out.

Interested Conservative| 7.26.09 @ 9:57PM

LR - "Until the stimulus begins to take hold -- next year sometime . . ."

I thought there was a "fierce urgency" to get "shovel ready" projects underway to immediately put the country back on "the right track". Maybe even repair the bridge to the new millenium and win the war on poverty and fund the national recovery act and correct the errors of the malefactors of great wealth and not crucify us on a cross of gold.

Next year is always next year, but the "stimulus" will have another poll-approved name, since those are the important polls.

SoCon| 7.26.09 @ 9:59PM

Not only is Biden a liar and a plagiarist, he's an idiot, too. Thanks but no thanks for your silly suggestion. Go sell it to your fellow Huff/Post morons.

Smitty| 7.26.09 @ 10:04PM

What a joke! Why would I want to read more BS from some clown who promised us unemployment would max out at 8% --that is now at 10% and skyrocketing? Obama is incompetent.

J Torguson| 7.26.09 @ 10:30PM

High Unemployment is not a problem.

Here, I'll fix it.

Hope and Change!
Hope and Change!
Hope and Change!

Uh Oh, I repeated it three times and it did not seem to help.

I will have to use REAL formula:

Hope and Change!
(Give tax payer money to union thugs and ACORN)

Hope and Change!
(Give tax payer money to union thugs and ACORN)

Hope and Change!
(Give tax payer money to union thugs and ACORN)

What! It still did not work!

There is obviously something wrong with this webiste. Be carefull, folks! The entire Internet may be defective!

Liberal Reader| 7.26.09 @ 10:48PM

I said I didn't think most of you would be interested in Biden's op-ed.

After all, it does represent an opinion different from your own, and you've received thorough Pavlovian training to yelp and nip whenever anyone says anything even slightly straying from the current Limbaugh talking points.

Don't worry. It's a free country. You don't have to read anything. Go watch a rerun of 24! It doesn't matter, really.

Liberal Reader| 7.26.09 @ 10:52PM

Interested Conservative --

You at least seem like a reasonable fellow. Read Biden's op-ed. He does answer your concerns.

But I'll respond too.

Just because a project is "shovel ready" does NOT mean it can turn around the entire economy in fewer than 6 months.

The economy went into recession in December 2007. You'll recall Bush was president then. Last fall, before the election, the economy went into a severe crisis that threatened the global financial system.

The stimulus package is imperfect, but we haven't begun to see its effects yet. Everything that is happening now -- everything -- is still the effects of last year's policies.

That's just the way it goes. I know people have this fantasy that the government could slash everyone's taxes and everything would magically get better. It's just not how it works. (Although, as Biden points out, 30% of the stimulus package is, in fact, tax cuts.)

Smitty| 7.26.09 @ 11:47PM

"It's a free country." Yeah, for now until you Marxist thugs get done with it. Peddle your BS to your Huff/Post buddies; we're too smart to swallow your garbage.

Liberal Reader| 7.27.09 @ 1:19AM

Smitty --

I doubt you know the first thing about Marx or his philosophy. All you know is that your heroes on right wing radio call people "Marxists" or "Marxist thugs" when they get mad at them, so you figure you should too.

While we're dispensing with unsolicited advice (sorry for all the three-syllablers), why don't you go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut?

Missy| 7.27.09 @ 2:10AM

Ha ha! Liberal Reader/Jeremiah will be assuming a new troll name now. After he throws a few F-Bombs at us he always morphs into a new moron.

You are such a witless, tedious bore, Jeremiah. Talk about not having a life--why do you spend your precious time haunting Conservative sites disseminating your lies? Does Axelrod astro-turfing pay you enough to sell your soul and your integrity?

Of course, being the liberal huckster that you are, you would have to have a soul and a modicum of integrity to start with--and you don't.

Jeremiah, you're a miserable excuse for a human being and I don't know how you can look at yourself in the mirror. Honestly, I pity you--regardless of my faults, I would never allow myself to be the personification of treachery.

Back at ya, donut boy.

JP| 7.27.09 @ 7:33AM

"Biden makes a pretty good case for the stimulus package in today's Times."

But Biden et als didn't make that argument last January and Feburary. As a matter of fact, the President is on record of predicting that the Stimulus would act as an immediate "shot in the arm" to the economy. He said, the Stimulus was designed to keep unemployment below 8% (back in Jan it was 7.5%). Unemployment now is almost at 10%, and the OMB says it would top out at 11% before it recedes next year. The President often quipped that there were $375 billion of "shovel ready" projects that could begin immediatly if only they could be funded. Thus far, less than $50 billion have gone into these "fantasy projects". More Stimulus money has gone to stop-gap state budget measures (over $150 billion) than to road or construction projects. Back filling state defecits do not "create jobs".

It could be more than 3 years before the Stimulus money finds its way to the states. By that time, large portions of the money will have been spent on the state and federal bureaucracies, and the chances for major fraud increase with every passing month.

The little secret Obama and the Dems in Congress didn't let out last Winter was that the 2006 Transportation Act ($500 billion) already allocated highway and construction funds through 2010. All of those "shovel ready" projects were already funded. The majority of the Stimulus money will find its way into the pockets of well connected political operators from Newark, Cook County, Los Angles County, and Manhatten.

If you figure in the $785 billion of TARP money, President Obama created one of the largest political slush funds in history when he signed the Stimulus Bill.

Bob| 7.27.09 @ 10:52AM

Here we go again with a shallow understanding of economics and political history. After the last recession, it took close to 18 months after the technical end of the recession for jobs to increase. This was a deeper recession and most economists believe that it has technically ended. Jobs will start to pick up during the summer/fall of next year. Most of us with training in economics said that unemployment would reach the 11-12% range given history.

Did the Obama administration oversell the stimulus? Certainly. But it is a fact that the infrastructure spending will provide a boost in 18 months to two years -- that has been proven in history.

Politically, Obama's popularity ratings are tied to the economy -- but then, if some of you older people remember, so was Reagan's. If the economy gets better, Obama's ratings will rise significantly.

The probability is that ordinary people will begin to see an improvement of this economy by the middle to end of next year. It will be slow and long because of the current high spending, but it will occur. And certainly, his ratings will rise significantly by the 2012 elections.

I guess it doesn't surprise me that what we see here are emotional short term responses and not reasoned, intelligent discourse.

There is a fiscally conservative, intelligent, path to Republican success -- but this Bandow type of rhetoric will not get there.

juandos| 7.27.09 @ 11:02AM

"Biden makes a pretty good case for the stimulus package in today's Times"...

ROFLMAO! ... Bidden has yet to make a good case why he should draw another breath

"The president's poll numbers continue to slide"...

Boy howdy!

Rasmussen Reports: The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 30% of the nation's voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty percent (40%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -10

Bob| 7.27.09 @ 11:12AM

The approval tracking for Obama is still more favorable than Reagan during his first term where his TOTAL approval rating dipped down to 40% before the economy turned around.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html

Have some perspective, guys...

Frosty| 7.27.09 @ 11:32AM

If our economy improves it won't be because of Obama economics, it will be in spite of Obama economics. Only an Obama sycophant would state otherwise.

Jones| 7.27.09 @ 11:37AM

If our economy improves it won't be because of Obama economics, it will be in spite of Obama economics. Only an Obama sycophant would state otherwise.

Stan Redmond| 7.27.09 @ 1:49PM

Maybe people are finally educating themselves about the realisty of this stimulus. Much of the spending is on expanding social welfare and handouts. You don't stimulate anything stealing from the productive and give to the unproductive. That doesn't create jobs. PLUS we don't have the money anyway. This "stimulus" is nothing more then trying to reinflate a bubble that burst a long time ago. The government does NOT grow economies. Liberty and low taxes grow economies. Imagine the result if the feds came up with a plan to forego the collection of 1 trillion dollars in taxes rather then give a trillion away to people that don't produce?

Bob| 7.27.09 @ 2:16PM

Stan -- about 40% of the stimulus were tax cuts. Are you saying they are not effective? About 18% of the stimulus was for infrastructure investment. Are you saying that building a better infrastructure is not effective?

Now I don't agree with the stimulus package because it didn't get money into the economy quick enough and contained a lot of pork. But it seems you don't know what was in it.

Frosty Jones -- The economy will not improve because of either spending or tax cuts. I have shown charts on a number of occasions that prove tax cuts are not stimulative. But then, spending is also not efficient. The key is to realize that it is private enterprise that makes our economy run. Monetary policy can effect that a bit, however. For that reason, the economy will improve -- it is only a question of when.

We need to get government out of the incentive business -- whether it be through spending or tax cuts. We need a flat tax to be fair. And we need to abolish corporate income taxes in favor of a consumption tax. The economics behind that kind of structure is overwhelming. The only problem is that we elect politicians who are beholding to donors, not the country.

JP| 7.27.09 @ 3:00PM

"Here we go again with a shallow understanding of economics and political history. After the last recession, it took close to 18 months after the technical end of the recession for jobs to increase."

That's assuming that:

a)The Fed Chairman continues to keep interest rates at 0% and continues to increase the cash side of the Fed's balance sheets.

b)Congress doesn't significantly raise taxes and fees on energy and health care. The GDP now hovers around $11 trillion, with the Federal Government consumes almost 40% of it.

If Bernecke doesn't protect the dollar, and keep interest rates where they are at, we will have a replay of 1975-1980. If he doesn't continue to make credit available to Wall St (speculators seem to be the only Fed customers these days), Wall St will again correct itself. There are some analysts who believe that at 9000 the Dow is still about 20% over valued. The Fed's easy money policy is nothing more than an attempt to ressurect the Bush real estate bubble.

At some point government spending becomes destructive. The GDP now hovers around $10-11 trillion. The 2009 budget will exceed 40% of GDP. Defecits now are forecasted to go beyond $11 trillion. We better hope the economy grows, as the current rate of defecit growth is unsustainable.

Bob| 7.27.09 @ 3:30PM

JP, you are absolutely on target with your comments. However, banks are now making money and the need for a bank lending rate of 0% as a way to protect for defaults is far less. There is a huge amount of money on the sidelines and that's why the Dow is rising again. I don't know whether the market is over or under valued at this juncture -- there are good arguments on either side.

That said, the effect of the U.S. debt is long term and I don't see it having a significant impact for another 5 years or so. Thus, we will see a cyclical turnaround if, for no other reason, inventories are coming in line and the supply/demand curve is leveling. The high debt will dampen the recovery, but will no prevent it. It is our children and grandchildren that will pay for the profligate spending. That's why I constantly condemn not only the current spending, but the spending of Reagan and Bush as well. Tax cuts without spending cuts are disastrous as we have now proven.

I believe that Obama will be forced to do some radical things to Medicare and Social Security to balance the budget. Remember that they account for 53% of the total budget.

Smitty| 7.27.09 @ 6:13PM

Remember that ObamaCare death watch list I warned you about, Bob. Older folks will have the duty to die so that illegals can be cared for properly.

Don't worry, though, a magic pill will make everything better for you folks--forever.

NONPARTISAN| 7.27.09 @ 7:04PM

The trouble with the Obama Administration is (as they admit) GREATLY underestimated how bad things are.

Don't believe me. Good.

Go to ZeroHedge dot com and read "The End of the End of the Recession".

THE MATH DOES NOT LIE PEOPLE.

We are in Deflation, and Bernanke has been desperately trying and FAILING to get a little inflation going to pull us out.

Make no mistake all of you: WE ARE FRAKKED. I don't care what party you belong to. It is too late.

PS-Biden is an idiot, but yet he is refreshingly honest went not completely controlled like a puppet.

As for another stimulus, EVEN IF WE DID IT, IT WILL NOT WORK. Why, because it is too late. We have no choice but to suffer through several years of "suckiness"

also, the NYT is American PRavda, stop reading MSM, they lie every time. Wake UP

Dave72| 7.27.09 @ 9:39PM

Joe Blow Biden famously said: "Obama is clean and articulate." We know his ears stick out and he says stupid things on a regular basis.

Who would have thought we would elect Forrest Gump as President! Stupid is as Stupid does.

Kristokoff| 7.27.09 @ 9:50PM

The stimulus has failed in many ways. It does not stimulate. History tells us it will actually prolong the recession. It is not pro-growth policy but rather job kill policy. It takes revenue away from the private sector & uses it to prop up public sector waste, failure & irresponsible spending.

The fact that only 10% has trickled out & the rest was designed to be spent in 2010 & beyond is a failure in & of itself. It is also a failure of those who wrote the bill.

Because it is government spending the process of getting the money out is slow & it is subject to fraud & waste with no accountability, which we have already seen. Most of it is wasteful government deficit spending that ramps up in 2010 & will do more harm than good anyway. Even Keynesian's dropped their support for the bill before it was enacted. Most believe spending should be upfront & on infrastructure make-work projects, which are temporary. Of course government spending does not grow the economy.

The tax credits are too small & the dispersal method makes them unnoticeable. The tax credits also increase your tax liability. They are also temporary & people know this. Real tax cuts would stimulate without being filtered through the bureaucratic waste machine. More bang for the buck. A $400 tax credit cost the taxpayer close to $800 in tax revenue. Basically, the feds are taking $800 from the taxpayer & giving them back $400 which they then tax.

It will increase the deficit by a trillion or more by the time it is all done. Borrowing or raising taxes to pay for the stimulus has a negative job-killing impact on the economy as well.

The economy would eventually start to recover despite the prolonging effect of the stimulus. But with the trillion $ budget plan, the trillions this administration is adding to the deficit, and if cap & tax, ObamaCare & other destructive bills are passed the economy will get worse. Indeed, a malaise that will last for decades. These bills will hurt many people & small businesses which will cause many to make less & lose jobs. Bills will also cause jobs to be shifted overseas.

This didn't have to be. America will learn once again what history could have taught them, insane tax rates & spending will slow the economy & kill jobs. The progressive policies of CA, NY, NJ & others are an example to learn from as well. The rest of the stimulus should be scrapped & real pro-growth policies like spending & tax cuts, & others should be implemented. Consistent, confidence inspiring policies will enable people to keep more income & business to create jobs, small business being the usual job creators that fuel the economy out of a recession.

Rather than tax money out of economy, with the resulting bureaucratic waste, only to redistribute it back in mostly to non-productive public sector areas that do not grow the economy, why not leave it there in the first place? Would actually stimulate, cost less, have quicker results & have smaller deficits by trillions. They wouldn't need to borrow & print trillions, either. Combined with spending cuts, economy would boom.

Most of us know the economically illiterate in this administration & congress won't do this. There is only one other option, 2010-2012.

Bob| 7.28.09 @ 10:40AM

Kristokoff, you once again tell the lie that tax cuts are stimulative. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS TRUE! Once you correct the data for inflation, the results are obvious. Let me put the charts in here again. If you know how to read charts, then you'll understand.

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=230

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetChartbook/Income-Tax-Receipts-Stay-Constant-Even-As-Tax-Rates-Decline.aspx

Furthermore, there is no strong evidence that spending is an efficient stimulator. Economic growth is the purview of the private sector. The government needs to get out of the incentive business whether we are talking about tax cuts OR spending. The most important factor is to keep the government out of debt. Taxation should be related to spending. If it is good enough to spend for, it should be paid for.

Typical White Person| 7.30.09 @ 9:46PM

"Kristokoff, you once again tell the lie that tax cuts are stimulative. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS TRUE! "

Thanks for your unintended humor. That is the most incredibly ignorant statement I've seen in the Internet for quite some time, which is saying something.

True tax cuts (reductions in marginal rates) stimulate the economy EVERY time they're tried. For that matter, even JFK advocated them.

And, yes I CAN read a chart, and if you knew the VERY FIRST THING about the economy of the late 1980's, you would know that GDP went up DRAMATICALLY. The Heritage chart is tax receipts as a PERCENTAGE of GDP, which says NOTHING WHATSOEVER about the GDP, and is exactly beside their point!.

Candy| 7.31.09 @ 10:03PM

TWP--that's Bob the pretend RINO troll who lies through his teeth and is a general pain in the @ss!

Thanks for your help, don't be a stranger.

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