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Devastating RNC ad captures Biden laughing at the issues
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The Spectacle Blog
Looking over Stacy’s post, I clicked through to Kathy Shaidle’s page, and found myself confronted by my own ambiguity on immigration. I don’t think the skeptical position is a bad one, and I certainly think that characterizing immigration skeptics as racist is a ridiculous venture (see also my review of Geraldo Rivera’s HisPanic). But there’s a simplicity of argument in the paragraphs below I found jarring.
The well-documented (if largely ignored) phenomenon of present-day Hispanic aliens’ disinclination to assimilate is something patriotic Americans should condemn, not embrace.
Karl Rove’s ill-fated strategy of courting the Latino vote didn’t help Republicans much in the last two elections. For every illegal alien cum “future GOP donor/voter”, there are dozens of non-Latino, law-abiding, tax paying citizens sick of having to “press ONE for English.”
Does this mean ignoring the Latino vote? They are generally socially conservative, and become small business owners given the opportunity. There’s something wrong with offering government aid to those who circumvent the law, certainly, but that has more to do with the way government aid is distributed (if you offer it, they will come).
I haven’t read Shaidle, and I’m sure her opinions on this are well-documented (and probably well-substantiated). I don’t much care to refer to Hispanic immigrants as “aliens,” if only because “immigrants” is the more common word for legal immigrants, and “aliens” is a legal status. As for whether they’re disinclined to assimilate, I do see this as different from the Italians, whose home country was not as close to their new home as their old one. Living in ethnic neighborhoods and cloistering, though, was entirely common, and just as much a result of the negativity they faced from nativists as it was a desire to be around their own.
When I hear “assimilation,” and then I hear that old Andy Rooney bit about pressing one for English, it seems more like people are annoyed that people are coming to this country with a bad grasp of English. That’s not what immigration skeptics are concerned about though — it can’t be, because of the way that people have historically assimilated in the U.S. and that first generations always have trouble leaning the language. (See also my kind Vietnamese barber.) Pressing “one” is not driving people to the voting booths.
What is, I think, is a concern that America is being redefined as having a trill on the “r” and an accent on the “i.” That the following generations will remain within their own groups, leading to severe cultural segregation rather than blending. Arguments that fall short of making this case tend to sound simplistic, and worse, racist, when they’re handed down from a time that the language needn’t have been so scrutinized.
I guess I’m saying that I’d like to hear someone argue about immigration without sounding contemptuous of hispanics writ large, or sounding like an undue burden has been placed on white people whose calls are handled by machines. I don’t think they are racists, but they’re using a lexicon that worked better in the 80s or 90s.
View all comments (47) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by J.P. Freire
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/01/23/assimilation-and-other-codewor
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Alan Brooks| 1.23.09 @ 10:38AM
as long as hispanics stay away from me.
i dont have to smarm them. people should leave each other alone.
we should be like Coolidge-- let's shut up and mind our own businesses.
Kathy Shaidle | 1.23.09 @ 10:43AM
Sorry, you're wrong.
The idea that "hispanics are social conservatives" is pretty funny. I didn't know unwed motherhood and lawbreaking were conservative values.
Hispanic illegals ARE 'refusing' to learn English because unlike any other time in history, we aren't forcing them to do so.
Press One of English is an example of that. We never had Press Two for Yiddish or Italian.
Recent Hispanic immigrants are also importing a culture of animal cruelty, drunk driving and the overall acceptance of lawbreaking, starting the minute they cross the border.
Unlike, say, Jewish or Asian immigrants, they are not bringing with them a culture that prizes higher education. Not a lot of Mexican Nobelists out there last time I checked.
More people than you'd imagine actually like "simplistic" arguments from the "1980s". Normal people, not multi-culti elitists and faux cons who are liberal about everything except defence and govt spending.
Speaking of the 80s lexicon, see 'racist' -- a word that no longer has meaning.
I'm a nativist and proud of it. You'd be surprised how many of us are out there.
If you want to live in an America where they re-enact some stupid Mexican battle rather than Revolutionary or Civil War ones; where we televise cock, bull and dog fighting rather than baseball, etc. don't come crying to me when that all pans out.
Kathy Shaidle | 1.23.09 @ 10:47AM
By the way, you don't even look old enough to know much about what the lexicon was in the 80s. No, reading about it doesn't count.
All those 'cool' ethnic restaurants are fine and dandy. Until you can't get to the restaurant safely cuz Pablo's out on parole.
Immigration is one of those 'when you get a little older, you'll understand' things. When your mom is in a nursing home and she can't communicate with the staff; when your kids are being taught that their culture is 'racist' - call me. And press One
Robert Stacy McCain | 1.23.09 @ 11:11AM
A. I'm not opposed to outreach, I just don't think that amnesty is the way to do it.
B. Not all Hispanics are immigrants, not all immigrants are Hispanic, and the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants is important.
Sean| 1.23.09 @ 11:58AM
I am against illegal immigration, but I do think they will eventually assimilate after 3 generations.
The question of immigration is: Do US citizens get to decide who and how many get to come to their country. The American people say yes and want enforcement of laws to make that a reality.
Crusader| 1.23.09 @ 12:03PM
I think the bigger question is will White folks be forced to assimilate in Atzlan after the Mexicans take it back?
Mary| 1.23.09 @ 12:08PM
Most immigrants came to America because their own countries couldn't feed them. In Italian, patria è pagnotta.
In addition to the economic incentive the United States provided, my parents who emigrated in '58 with my older brother (5) and me (2) in tow, still become emotional when they say, "to come to America was a dream." My mother, 76 years old, with very little voice because of advanced cancer and thyroid surgery, raises the flag and says "olda glory." It's really enough to bring tears to your eyes.
We arrived in the US in April. That September my brother started kindergarten. The only phrase he knew was upside down. He'd learned it when playing with a friend and a toy dump-truck. By the end of the school year his English was as good, if not better, than his classmates.
I'm fluent in both languages, but my Italian suffers some when discussions requiring a lot of depth ensue. I struggle through. Sometimes I get there, sometimes I don't. I don't think many immigrants are equally proficient in both languages.
The whole Alien thing is interesting. I didn't become a citizen until I was 19. Up until that time I had to register each and every year with the Feds, and I did that with my Alien registration card which I picked up at the local post office. Both of my grandfathers came to the States in the first decade of the 20th Century. Both had to return to Italy because they couldn't support themselves and their sponsoring relatives couldn't support them either. They didn't want to return: To come to America was a dream.
To come to America now is about something not nearly as romantic or idealistic. It's straight-up prose, and not much more.
So many of us are just about status and money and many, as the housing fiasco shows, are what we used to call 10 cent millionaires.
I grew up in farm country. The migrants (mostly black) came up every summer to harvest our crops. They were replaced by the campesinos. All were hard working, but I'm not sure it's correct to say that Hispanics are socially conservative. Their illegitimacy rate is 50%. That was never a problem for Italians. And it changes the dynamic such that the head of the family by default becomes the State.
We emigrated to a very Anglo, Presbyterian town. My family was well received. It was 1958 so a lot of Italian angst had already dissipated, but my parents were also well received because their values were the same as those of the Anglo small business people.
There was an Italian grocer. We shopped there for most of our stuff, but we shopped at A&P;and Loblaws too. When I travel to Italy, I always carry a jar of peanut butter in my overnight bag. The trick then becomes finding non sour dough bread.
I might be wrong because it's hard to know if bigotry isn't fueling at least some of my thoughts here, but the present balkanization seems of a different order. Crisis is likely to reveal if I'm right or not. From my own immigration experience, I have very little in common with most Hispanic or Asian immigrants. I just don't get the sense that their immigration experience is akin to mine, a love affair.
When I took my oath of citizenship, I had to renounce allegiance to Italy. It hurt a little but not enough to detract from the pride I felt in becoming an American. My Naturalization papers, to my everlasting pleasure, sport the picture of a tanned 19 year-old who could easily pass for Native American.
A co-worker once suggested we lobby for an Italian History month. I just said, who needs an Italian history month when "America is such a good, Italian name!"
I'm inferior to my parents and their generation, but at least I know and can admit that. The Country I knew, I think is dead. If the new Country is unavoidable but sustainable, then Godspeed all the same.
I'll always be an Anglophile because whatever the White man's sins, his contributions to civilization and his love of women cannot be over appreciated.
I love White boys because they loved me first. :)
ncatty| 1.23.09 @ 12:41PM
Mary, that was a beautiful comment.
Alan Brooks| 1.23.09 @ 12:59PM
we're all in a tower of Babel.
chittering classes babel-ing away in tongues.
progress, phooey. hush this babel of progress till a thousand years have past.
J. Peter Freire | 1.23.09 @ 1:32PM
Sorry, I was just in my crib playing with a rattle. Or was that a maraca?
Kathy,
I think this really only underscores my point. I'm open to being convinced. I think I show sensitivity to your position -- I get the pressures of immigration on society. I don't think the nativist approach is entirely irrational (though I don't agree with much of it). Though after some consideration, I find you to be entirely irrational.
I'm saying that the grating tone many nativists take is a perfect example of how their arguments have room for a better tone, especially since, as it stands, they don't leave much room for actual debate. Your response: a formulaic, ad hominem riff on my age, on how Mexicans don't have much of a culture, and a dismissive swipe about how ethnic restaurants shouldn't inform one's views on immigration.
Thank you for proving my point.
Alan Brooks| 1.23.09 @ 1:44PM
no rattle against Jose
as long as what hispanics are yapping about isnt understood they are pleasant to me.
nativism? isnt the game over, isnt this country Amerimexico?
Durendal| 1.23.09 @ 2:08PM
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics there are 16,596,000 Americans looking for work right now. According to the Pew Center there are 7,200,000 non-Americans who are in the United States illegally holding jobs. Ask each and every person demonstrating for or against immigration reform how they feel about such an injustice as this and you get an answer based on what their connection is to this problem. And the answer would vary based on whether they connect with the people who lost their jobs, whether they connect with the people benefiting from the falling wages, whether they connect with the people here illegally, whether they are bearing the tax burden of those here illegally, or whether their neighborhood has been effected by those here illegally.
According to the Pew Center 81% of those here illegally are of Hispanic origin. That simple fact has infused the illegal immigration debate with a huge racial/national origin component. Furthermore, the same data when compared to census data shows 22% of all people of Hispanic origin in the USA are in this country illegally. That makes it easy for those who benefit from people being here illegally and those whose neighborhoods have been hurt by those here illegally to turn this into an exercise in racism.
But in fact this is really about who should be working in the USA. Should Citizens and Legal Residents (who have been admitted to the USA in such a way as to not create unemployment) have access to our jobs without the fear of seeing their wages undercut or losing their jobs to cheap foreign workers? Or should our jobs go to the lowest bidder no matter where in the world they come from? Do we overpopulate our countryside and build cities all over our farmland from sea to shining sea? Or do we try to preserve our environment by not over-populating the USA? And finally, do we want to put race and national origin first and Citizenship and legality second? Or do our own people come first?
Real American| 1.23.09 @ 2:50PM
Why are ballots produced in several written languages? If one is born here (with the right to vote) he/she should have learned English by the time he/she is 18 years old. If one comes from another country and becomes a naturalized citizen, they should have to learn English to do so and thus there is no need for ballots to be printed in any language other than English.
Policies of this country should favor citizens over non-citizens and legal immigrants over illegals. that is is so common sense. there have to be some privileges associated with following the law and being a citizen.
J David| 1.23.09 @ 2:54PM
"Assimilation" is a word in large part pertaining to education. It is learning a new culture, its laws, its language, its traditions and voluntarily joining with them. We have a liberal culture in the education/political class that is dead-set against absorption of minorities, but rather the DIVIDING into interest groups of permanent victim classes that shall remain ignorant and dependent and voting for COMMIE-LIB DEMS.
Those who call themselves "conservative" and support an aggressive incorporation of a foreign culture(while excluding educated, skilled minorities from overseas) ARE NOT CONSERVATIVE! They are lying to themselves and others in some imaginary vision of global New Age *Universal consciousness*, but humans will still be humans.
Interloper| 1.23.09 @ 3:21PM
A certain long-winded bigot said:
"I didn't know unwed motherhood and lawbreaking were conservative values."
Then, I guess the Palins are not conservatives after all.
Interloper| 1.23.09 @ 3:39PM
Peter said:
"What is, I think, is a concern that America is being redefined as having a trill on the "r" and an accent on the "i." That the following generations will remain within their own groups, leading to severe cultural segregation rather than blending...."
Actually, it would be kind of cool if we pronounced 'America' more in keeping with its Italian basis, which sounds more like that other Romance language, Spanish.
You are leaving out the most important reason why ethnic neighborhoods develop - refusal of many white Americans to live in close proximity to non-whites. This used to be achieved by segregation de jure, but segregation de facto has the same effect. It is not that Hispanics, blacks and Asians choose to live in predominantly minority areas, they aren't given much choice. Once a neighborhood 'tips' at about 20 percent non-white, many whites move. (That may change some in these economic times. Those forced to stay may be surprised to discover there was no reason to leave.)
I think the blending, or overlap is occurring, though conservatives are not part of the picture. No one who looks at the 2008 election returns, or any event featuring President Barack Obama can miss the real diversity of the picture. Heck, his family encompasses people from every ethnicity and all parts of the world. They rest of us will get to the Promised Land, as Dr. King said. The Right is choosing to be left behind.
Crusader| 1.23.09 @ 3:55PM
Diversity, root word = divide. Coincidence?
ruth| 1.23.09 @ 4:49PM
Crusader, Spanish speaking only in Atzlan, right? Ncatty liked Mary's comment because she said she liked white boys. Me, too Mary! Interloper, the tool, said Palin broke the law: At least she' s smart enough to have paid her taxes, unlike your liberal treasury guru.
J David| 1.23.09 @ 4:55PM
Tim Geithner has set the standard for all of us, and I think it is time to cheat HIM of our own tax money, and stop the funding of America's demise. If everyone refused to pay, just one April 15th, the socialization of the country would cease instantly.
Durendal| 1.23.09 @ 5:20PM
Interloper - Webster's definition of Racism: "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". You were saying about White People as opposed to other races...?
Andrea Harris | 1.23.09 @ 7:42PM
The idea that Hispanics are mostly "conservative" as we define that word in America is a misconception based on the ignorant assumption that everyone in the world defines socio-political terms in exactly the same way. We think Hispanics are conservative because Hispanic men are perceived as macho and sexually jealous, Hispanic women are supposed to be emotional and ultra-feminine, and they are all supposed to be deeply religious Catholics, and in the mind of the American WASPs that dominate the conservative movement that all means "conservative," despite the existence of leftist movements in Christianity like Liberation Theology.
There is one Hispanic sub-group that actually is, or was, mostly conservative -- that would be the Cubans who fled Castro for the United States in the early 60s. They were famous for being mostly Republican, hard-working, successful -- all the stereotypes of what we want conservative ethnic groups to be. Other Hispanics hate them, not the least because they are seen as having betrayed the "Revolution." Marxism has made lots of inroads into the countries south of the border. That's why I laugh every time something comes up about the need for Republicans to get the Hispanic vote. They're never going to get a Hispanic majority vote.
ruth| 1.23.09 @ 8:47PM
Kathy, bravo, you're fearless. Sometimes the truth hurts and is a little harsh, like your words; but they're still the truth. I don't think Messrs. McCain or Freire understand the extent of destruction that illegal immigration has wrought. I guess you have to see it up close and personal. Mr. Freire, this can't be explained via the written word--you have to experience it like Kathy probably has. It's ridiculous and stupid to me, though, that we are not supposed to have the right to protect our borders. Mexico does--with her army.
Andrea Harris | 1.23.09 @ 9:34PM
I forgot to add -- the second wave of Cuban refugees, the Mariel boatlift in the late 70s, was Castro's revenge against all the middle class Cubans leaving so he couldn't exploit their labor. He basically opened his jails and dumped a lot of Cuba's worst criminals on Florida. I was born in raised in Miami and I was in high school at the time so I got to experience the whole fun ride. The crime rate soared to astronomical heights until we could round up all our brand-new thieves and murderers, the roads were filled with the remains of cars that had been sitting in junkyards waiting to be mashed in the compactor (the accident rate soared too, as did insurance rates)... the school system had to deal with a glut of new students who not only didn't speak English at all but who hadn't had regularly running water or any of the other civilized necessities we take for granted in this country, and let's just say most of the Mariel refugees weren't the mostly educated, middle- to upper-class type that had come from Cuba twenty years earlier. So yeah, dumping a big mess of foreign criminals and/or uneducated people on America is easy-peasy.
Steve | 1.23.09 @ 9:38PM
Thank you "Mary" for writing your own immigrant (legal) story here. It was wonderful and captures the spirit of early immigrants.
Please send me an email. You can find it on my website: http://www.ojjpac.org
Steve
Thomas| 1.24.09 @ 12:23AM
I love these debates. J. Peter, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Mexicans coming to America. The problem is that many of them come as law breakers, remain here as law breakers and, very often, never make any attempt to embrace the dominant culture in America, simply because they are outside it. Now, the problem with inviting people who sneak in the back door to join the feast, while all the rest had to pay for admission, is it teaches the wrong lesson. Instead of learning that honesty is good and pays the honest person, they learn that if you lie, cheat, steal and sneak in, then that is perfectly all right. I doubt that you would teach your children those lessons, so why would you condone immigrants behaving that way?
Interloper, you are mistaken if you think that immigrants move into ethnic neighborhoods because they are forced to, either because whites of a different ethnicity refuse to share their neighborhoods with newlt arrived imigrants or because those same white residents leave the neighborhoods when new immigrants arrive. Usually, immigrants move into neighborhoods already populated by people of similar background because they feel more comfortable among people who share common experiences, and more importantly, a common language. Americans usually begin leaving neighborhoods with an increasing ethnic population because they no longer have neighbors with whom they share a common history and they no longer are able to speak the common language in these neighborhoods as the new residents are reluctant to speak English. In the case of legal immigrants whom come to this country to become American citizens, this is usually not a problem; as they make every effort to learn English and to americanize their children. The new immigration, though is a different story. They story of people coming only for the dollar and making no effort to become citizens.
ruth| 1.24.09 @ 12:40AM
Sometimes I think Intergroper is living in the fifties or early sixties. I live with people of all ethnicities and we actually get along quite well. But Intergroper, as a typical, bullying liberal, will never let go of his one bread and butter issue: race. One trick pony ideology of victimhood--he's got nothing else. Where's the CHANGE?
Alan Brooks| 1.24.09 @ 10:10AM
asian race is slightly superior
followed by caucasians
then by blacks
for some strange reason i prefer to be with asians-- dunno why. guess i'm a racist.
Mal| 1.24.09 @ 11:06AM
Oh dear, Kathy; Frère Freire was wounded by your tone. And after he was showing all that sensitivity to your position, as well!
Again, the clash of inexperience and ideals vs. experience and real-life.
There is a vast difference between the "alien" who comes to America to leave a previously worse life for a better one, and the one who sees himself as a vanguard - cynically manipulating his host's generosity to further a goal.
Robin in Tennessee| 1.24.09 @ 11:17AM
"J. Peter Freire"? "My delicate sensibilities have been disrupted by your jarring simplicity"?
Is this whole thing some sort of impenetrable spoof?
Anyhow, I've replaced the Amspec bookmark with a Fivefeet bookmark and thanks, J Pete for introducing me to Kathy Shaidle.
Pingback| 1.24.09 @ 12:10PM
The Other Reconquista is Closer to Home links to this page.
Jeremiah| 1.24.09 @ 12:57PM
I hadn't realized the American Spectator aimed to succor and promote racist propaganda.
What a nasty and stupid thread. A pox on all your houses.
ruth| 1.24.09 @ 1:46PM
Liberals are afraid of truth, they attempt to blot it out by ranting, "Racist." Unfortunately liberals like Jeremiah are a terminal cancer raging within our nation. They will kill their host and move on; but to where?
Jeremiah| 1.24.09 @ 2:12PM
Alan --
You write, "i guess i'm a racist".
Actually, you're that rare instance of a person too foolish, too stupid, too incapable of thought, even to form the necessary cognition to be racist. You're an ass, and too shallow even to detect your own folly.
ruth| 1.24.09 @ 3:13PM
Leave Alan alone, bully.
MaryRC| 1.25.09 @ 2:36PM
Ruth -- Kathy is Canadian. I doubt very much that she has more experience of the "extent of destruction that illegal immigration has wrought" than any of the American Spectator contributors.
She likes to imply that she is American by using "we" as in "Hispanic illegals ARE 'refusing' to learn English because unlike any other time in history, we aren't forcing them to do so."
I assure you, we don't have enough Hispanic illegals in Canada to bother trying.
Fred| 1.25.09 @ 6:58PM
MaryRC : No, perhaps not hispanic ones, but you if you live in any large Canadian city you see the effect of a very generous immigration policy which is resulting in similar problems.
Does Toronto still have a slim majority of native born citizens?
ruth| 1.25.09 @ 10:54PM
MaryRC, I'm aware that Kathy is Canadian, but I was unaware that there are no airline flights between Canada and the southern border states of the U.S. Do you know something I don't? How do you know if Kathy has lived part of her life down here or perhaps comes for long visits? Mary, you should come down here and visit, then maybe you would know what you are talking about before you start saying snotty and judgmental things about your fellow Canadian.
MaryRC| 1.26.09 @ 2:03AM
OK, Ruth, thank you. I just wanted to make sure you knew.
I'm not privy to Kathy's travel schedule but she's been a fixture in Toronto for at least the past two decades and I didn't want you to get the impression that there are hordes of Hispanic illegals streaming north over the Detroit-Windsor Ambassador bridge with their illegitimate babies and their fighting gamecocks and all.
Frankly, I'm afraid Kathy thinks that being stuck up here, she doesn't get to sit at the cool kids' table and that's why she likes to sneak in the occasional "we". She can get a little snotty and judgmental about her fellow Canadians herself, you know.
ruth| 1.26.09 @ 3:23AM
I didn't think Kathy was referring to Canada, her comments were relevant to my state's immigration situation. You're the only one who made snotty remarks about a fellow Canadian; she didn't. It makes you look bad--disloyal and all.
paul | 1.27.09 @ 2:09AM
Kathy (my fellow Canuck) doesn't need to have lived in the US, as she's lived here in Canada, where that socialist (neo-marxist) idiot Trudeau, promised like the new prez, "CHANGE" and the establishment of a "JUST SOCIETY", that ended up being a multicult mess. We have had enough experience here, with the "milking of the system" by Pakistani, North African, and Southeast Asian immigration, so that our traditions and culture are fast disappearing in a mass appeasement of those imported by these people, due to "not wanting to seem racist, or to offend, or seem intolerant" etc. The East Indians for the most part, are hardworking, assimilate fairly well, and so far, have yet to honour kill any of their daughters for the crime of assimilating. The Chinese and Japanese, also assimilate well, and have made great contributions to the country. So have the Guatemalans, and Peruvians I know. When you look at all the murders in Mexico of public prosecutors, police officials, etc, by the criminal element in the drug trade for one, and the resultant lawlessness, one can't help but wonder exactly what is in store for USA. I could share observations from a friend who just came back from 2 months in LA... but I have said quite a bit already.
ruth| 1.28.09 @ 1:47AM
Trust me, Paul, I'm a SoCal native--I could tell you stories that would raise the hair on your neck. But then I would be 'racist', right. Morons.
sidnee| 12.12.09 @ 12:01PM
jack wills
ugg new arrivals