The American Spectator : The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism

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The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism

By Daniel Mandel on 9.2.09 @ 6:07AM

A strange new debate is taking place — even in Sweden.

Blood libels against Jews have been with us from time immemorial. Last week, one occurred in a Swedish tabloid, Aftonbladet, where it was falsely claimed that Israeli troops were murdering Palestinians and harvesting their organs. Rejecting Israeli calls for official condemnation, Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt retorted that freedom of expression had to be protected and that he lacked time to edit “all strange debate contributions [emphasis added].”

This was disingenuous. No one had demanded the curtailment of freedom of speech. Nor does the principle of freedom of speech preclude Carl Bildt from expressing his own view — if it is his own — that such demonization of Jews is obscene. Nor can an imputation of Israeli ghoulishness be properly described as merely a “strange contribution” to “debate.”

Yet, in a way, on this last point, Bildt was inadvertently right. A debate of sorts is indeed taking place on whether or not Jews are monsters who stand apart from the mass of humankind. It has in fact been proceeding for some time. Such a discussion has always been the operative, incipient strategy of anti-Semitic campaigns. In order to treat Jews as monsters to be extirpated, one must first persuade other people that they are monsters.

Thus, in the space of a few months, there have been other “strange” contributions to this world-wide “debate”:

• A Dutch journalist insists in an interview in Holland’s largest daily, De Telegraaf, that the global swine flu pandemic is part of an international conspiracy of Satan-worshipping Jews to reduce the world’s population, as were previous outbreaks of bird flu and other forms of flu.

• The Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad tells a UN conference on racism that Israel is the cruelest and most racist regime based on a fictitious genocide invented by malign Jews.

• A Canadian aboriginal leader is acquitted of seeking to promote racial hatred after saying in an interview that Jews virtually owned all of Germany before the Nazis came to power and that Jews are a “disease…that’s going to take over.”

This is not the language of contempt or viciousness that characterizes other hatreds. It moves on an entirely different plane, that of demonization of mythic proportions.

And so it must. Contrary to what is widely believed, anti-Semitism is not simply another variety of racism or bigotry. Rather, it is the time-honored strategy of assault on the Judeo-Christian legacy, adopted by individuals and groups hoping to supplant it. Such an assault requires the demonization of its progenitor, the Jews.

Unlike every other group hatred, therefore, anti-Semitism operates even without the usual stimulants for group hatred — economic envy, ethnic animosity or competition for territory or resources.

That is why anti-Semitism appears in countries without Jews; attributes supernatural powers and stupendous crimes to them; has been prominent across time and space in diverse ideologies; and has preoccupied groups with real objectives and grievances unconnected to Jews.

As Maurice Samuel put it nearly seventy years ago, “The reluctance to see anti-Semitism under the aspect of the revolt against Christ is part of the strategy of that revolt.” In short, anti-Semitism is not only a problem of the anti-Semite, but of an army of bystanders who share a sneaking sympathy for his program.

Other hatreds are also cruel but, as it were, relevant. However, only anti-Semitism could lead an aboriginal leader, confronting vital issues affecting his native constituency, to fixate on supposedly malign, omnipotent Jewish forces. Conversely, there would be no sympathetic hearing available for someone describing, say, the Poles, or the Burmese, or the Nigerians as deliberate plotters of bird flu.

Yet, at best, anti-Semitism is treated as but another hatred — which is to say, inadequately.

When the Dutch journalist made her claims of a Jewish swine flu conspiracy, a Dutch anti-Semitism activist said of her that “she does not seem to be right in her head.”

Page: 1 2 >

topics:
Anti-Semitism, Sweden

About the Author

Daniel Mandel is a Fellow in History at Melbourne University and author of H. V. Evatt and the Establishment of Israel: The Undercover Zionist (Routledge, London, 2004). His blog can be found on the History News Network.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (129) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

drudge ette obama| 9.2.09 @ 6:27AM

Where are the Jews when it comes to evangelical Christian bashing and ridicule? Sometimes leading?

Melvin| 9.2.09 @ 7:32AM

Jew, Muslims, and Christians, what is the flavor of the week for mainstream media. Not having a particular religion at one another throats makes for a slow news cycle.
The world is increasing becoming anti-religious,. It happened to those of the Jewish faith after WW2, Christianity has been on the decline for quite some time, and the Catholics are still purging frisky priests when they are not becoming celebrities by casting away their clerical collars for some hot babe as Father Alberto Cutié has done.
Muslims use fear to keep their faithful in line and in time it will happen to that faith to, because man is elevating himself to god-like status, just look at our politician's in how they see themselves.
An entire industry has been created in lynching Jews, but ya know what, where is Tammy Faye Baker when we need her. Hmmm, some Shylock must be holding her for ransom somewhere.

CPAP Masks | 9.2.09 @ 8:54AM

This is a view I've been coming around to more and more in recent years. This column could easily become a series here; there are plenty of avenues of further investigation.

That response to Ahmadinejad from the Vatican was awful.

Still, the first commenter is right. The American Jewish visceral contempt for evangelicals(of which I'm a half-hearted member) is more than a little annoying.

David Santangello| 9.2.09 @ 9:02AM

My problem with Anti-Semitism is the word itself. Implicit in the meaning word is the notion that negative opinions against Jews is somehow unwarranted, irrational and without cause.

David Santangello| 9.2.09 @ 9:10AM

Frankly, I am sick and tired of being lectured about anti-semitism. Jews have been very adept at pointing fingers and yelling anti-semitism in order to intimate legitimate criticism of Jewish behavior. I think its about time that Jews start asking themselves why they have been disliked and distrusted across the global for thousands of years?

If I have a child in a school and most of the the children dislike him, my first inclination would be to be critical of the school and move the child to another school. If the same thing happens at the new school, I might repeat the action. But after awhile, if my child continues to experience this problem school-after-school-after-school, well, at some point, I have to start asking some pretty unpleasant questions about my child.

GET THE POINT?

Yes WEE Can| 9.2.09 @ 9:29AM

David Santangello, go to any neo-nazi website. You will find that you are parroting their talking points.

Tim| 9.2.09 @ 9:30AM

Anti-Jew is a cover for anti-God. A font from which a river of evil flows.

Eric Damon| 9.2.09 @ 10:03AM

Re: David Santagello

Your "child-school" analogy is way off the mark, and serves no purpose other than to try to pin the blame for anti-semitism on the Jews themselves.
Group hatred does not need any real reason to start, or to be perpetuated; all it takes is for someone to keep that hatred alive. Jews have done nothing to deserve the Russian pogroms, or the Holocaust; they were attacked because they were a small, helpless minority...and because stronger forces stood back and allowed it to occur. When someone hates you just for BEING you, what can be done about that? I am Black and have been hated by people who never got to know me, simply because I am Black; does that mean that I need to look at MYSELF to figure out why THEY hate me? I think not! That hatred is not mine to deal with, it is theirs...and the same holds true for the anti-semite. Jews are not hated for what they do, but for simply BEING. And that type of irrational hatred is the problem of the person harboring it, not the persons it is directed against.

Etiquette Man| 9.2.09 @ 10:13AM

Most evangelical churches with which I am familiar (including those of which I have been a member) have regarded Jews with a kind of reverence, largely for eschatological reasons. Most also seem to be pro-Israel (as I am).

Gazing through the other side of this particular looking glass, I have personally encountered no hostility at all from Jews toward my faith. I get much more grief from "mainline" Protestants, and occasionally a Roman Catholic colleague will sniff in a slightly superior way. (One tried for years to convince me that James was Christ's cousin, rather than his (half) brother.)

Where is the hostility from Jews toward evangelicals? This is an honest question, not intended to goad to challenge. I simply haven't encountered it. I'll be grateful to anyone who can educate me on this.

Thanks,

Etiquette Man| 9.2.09 @ 10:24AM

Amen, Eric Damon. Well-said!

Being hated for who one is, is no one's fault but the hater's. You are exactly right.

I can relate to your story, since mine is a kind of mirror image of yours. I had a slightly different experience growing up as a white boy in a black neighborhood, with all black friends. Every now and then someone not from our block would wander in and call me "honkey" or "n****r" (which really confused me). Since all of my friends were black, I never really connected that hatred with my being white (I remember thinking that the haters must be crazy) but my race was indeed the source of it.

You were not to blame for the racist morons who hated you for your skin color, just as I was not. Neither are the Jews.

As God's first chosen people, it is no surprise that they are hated by those who do not know, or reject, Him.

As James wrote of complacent believers: "You believe in God. Good! So do the demons, and shudder."

Anti-semitism is one symptom of God-hatred, and a manifestation of that ungodly "shudder." Belief without faith is as dead as an anti-semite's black heart.

Best,

Jeremiah| 9.2.09 @ 10:38AM

David, sei troppo stupido! Anti-semitism is back in Europe with a vengeance and is mostly due to a very high level of muslim immigration. Sweden is so much flooded with Moroccans and Algerians that a T-shirt is for sale in most Göteborg kebab outlets : "2030 and we're home!" No European politician in his right mind would want to alienate such a powerful electorate...

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 10:52AM

Thanks for the comments , guys.
Some ignorant Christians honestly don't know about the doctrine of "Adoption" to Israel through Jesus Christ.

Yeah, Jewish folks tend to be a little clannish, tribal if you will. Heck, I don't blame 'em.

One problem is that if a Jew does a "Mitzvah", (a charitable act), their laws DEMAND that it remains a secret.
No one therefore can truly know exactly what charities the Jewish American community has done here, but believe me when I suggest that per capita, it is a significant multiple of what we Christians have donated.
A couple of (Christian) hospital administrators have whispered in my ear..."Jewish guys saved our hospital on more than one occasion."

Tim said it I think..."Anti Jew is a cover for anti God." Amen on that, Tim.

Oh!
by the way: T.E.A.M. AMERICA HIT THE FIELD LAST NIGHT http://judgeroy.wordpress.com (blog with lead article.)
www.myteamusa.org is our home page.

SkipMac Lure| 9.2.09 @ 10:55AM

Why does it feel chillingly like 1936 pre-war Europe out there? If history teaches any lesson it is that we cannot ignore this foreshadowing of evil. The flip side of anti-semitism is anti-Christianity of which we are seeing an abundance of evidence in America today...How far away is our own National Socialist nightmare?
How dim have the lights of the recent past become? And how much are we going to have to pay for it?
The other lesson that history has waiting in the wings is that the price of liberty is always paid in blood.
Semper Fi
Skip MacLure

Rudy| 9.2.09 @ 11:00AM

Well, well. So all it really takes to strip away the pious mask of “conservatism” from some Spectator correspondents is a straightforward exposition of the worldwide evil and irrational hatred for Jews. During my lifetime I have witnessed some of the most tortured, convoluted rationales justifying anti-semitism, but very few of the venom-spouters are willing to say what their real motivation is: they hate Jews, plain and simple.

For those who, like Mr Santangelo profess to struggle with the “definition” of anti-semitism, if you find yourself constantly leveling criticism at a Jewish person or group simply because they are Jewish, then you are an anti-semite. No one ever said or implied that Jews are above criticism for their personal actions or any law-breaking. And as for that old chestnut I call the “universal dislike” dodge, let’s remember that Jesus Christ Himself (an ethnic Jew in his humanity) destroyed it in Luke 6:26 by explaining to his followers that just because one is despised by the masses does not necessarily mean that one is wrong or evil—human approbation is the weakest of reeds to cling to.

I would respectfully challenge drudge ette obama to cite either historically or biblically where the Christian religion is supposed to depend upon the state or support by unbelievers(!) for its spread and effectiveness unless God has put it in the heart of an influential leader to enable this within his own fiefdom. Why single out Jewish opponents of Christianity (of which there are some) and ignore the non-Jewish opponents which number in the multitudes by comparison?

To equate anti-semitism with garden-variety racism one has to ignore all precedent. Racist screeds against blacks or other ethnic groups usually call for their enslavement or banishment; the same when directed against Jews invariably require their extermination. That is the most serious of distinctions. Does one really want to be a bird who flocks together with the likes of the Nazis, Ahmandinejad, Farrakhan, Saddam Hussein, Jeremiah Wright, etc.?

I have been a consistent reader and in/out subscriber of The American Spectator for more than twenty years, and have always admired its even-handedness in dealing with issues of Israel and ethnic/religious Jewishness. I can’t think of another conservative/libertarian publication which has done a better job in this area. It is not responsible for the opinions of its readers, but I do hope that this magazine continues its editorial stance so that some of those who have accepted too many of these recycled lies will have more to think about.

Alan Brooks| 9.2.09 @ 11:05AM

yes, but Santangello doesn't like attacks aimed at Italians. So you don't attack them.

You don't want to sleep with the fishes.

Etiquette Man| 9.2.09 @ 11:09AM

Hi Ken,

Yes, we Christians are olive branches that have been "grafted into" God's "tree." This was possible at the beginning only for the people of Israel, until Christ's sacrifice at Calvary opened the "franchise of faith" (if you'll forgive the phrase) to all who accept Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

As an evangelical Christian, I have always considered myself to have a Jewish spiritual heritage. I lament that more Jews have not embraced Christ as the prophesied Messiah, and I have often been puzzled by the number of self-identified Christians who don't like Jews. It's like hating members of your own extended family. I really don't get it.

Anyway, thanks for making that point about Christians' "adoption" to Israel. In the context of the article and others' comments, it underscores the inter-connectedness of anti-semitism to godlessness in general, including the current rise in anti-Christian sentiment and activity.

Best,
EM

Alan Brooks| 9.2.09 @ 11:11AM

Frank Serpico's friend once told me Serpico is antisemitic, even though his fellow whistle-blowing cop, David Durk, was Jewish.

antisemitism in Italians might be guilt for Italy's role from nineteen forty to nineteen forty three.

Pete| 9.2.09 @ 11:19AM

Still can't figure out why the Jews supported the Mocha Messiah, who is clearly anti-semitic. I wonder what would happen if you put his lifelong pastor in a room with a gun and 5 unarmed Jews....

Oldefarte| 9.2.09 @ 11:23AM

Left out of this story was [possibly for political correctness issues] Jesse Jackson's HYMIE-TOWN remark and Jeremiah Wright's THEM JEWS slur---------possible their friend and political supporter Barack Obama should term these statements as STUPIDLY and convene the two of them to the White House lawn for a BEER SUMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pete| 9.2.09 @ 11:27AM

Beer? Try 40s of Colt 45 Malt Liquor. Wish the morons who voted in Osama wouldn't continue to "let the smooth talk fool them."

KyMouse| 9.2.09 @ 11:44AM

As Mr. Mandel notes, "In order to treat Jews as monsters to be extirpated, one must first persuade other people that they are monsters." There is ongoing evidence at this Web site, in which irrelevant comments that are as vicious as they are long are frequently posted by people who hate Jews. The Judenfrei Jew Review, a horrifying Web site, recently had a comment in which a fan recommended giving "information" about Jews that is designed to turn people against them; however, commentors are advised against blatantly saying "I hate Jews." They are to list Jewish "crimes" instead. That appears again and again at TAS, unfortunately.

I think anti-Jewish hatred is satanic in origin: There is no single ethnic group or people who have contributed so much to civilization over the centuries (physicians, scientists, teachers, Nobel Prize winners, entertainers, etc.), yet none other has been vilified as consistently. The closest group I can think of are the Romany (gypsies), who have wandered far from home, but I know of no great contributions to civilization that they have made. Jewish people have made more than their share, and have been a phenomenal blessing to gentiles all over the world.

Regarding the mention of Jewish hostility toward Christians, in my experience it is shown primarily toward believers in Jesus -- Jewish as well as gentile -- who offer the Gospel message (that Jesus -- Y'shua -- is the divine messiah foretold by the prophets, and that His death paid for the sins of all who trust in Him) to His Jewish people. I've volunteered on several Jews For Jesus outreach campaigns, and have been screamed at and insulted; some participants have been punched, spat on, or worse. Jews For Jesus staff and volunteers don't enjoy that reaction, but they forgive and pray for those who harrass them. After all, the Gospel has always been offensive (I Corinthians 1:23), and Jewish people have suffered greatly at the hands of people who used their form of "Christianity" as a bludgeon instead of a blessing. The late Zola Levitt, the Jewish believer who founded Zola Levitt Ministries, often pointed out that the people who have been hurt the most need to be treated with the most love. Believers in Jesus -- Jewish and gentile -- keep on accepting the insults and the blows, because they believe that their message is ultimately the greatest blessing for the Jewish people (Isaiah 53:5). A small but growing number of Jewish men and women agree: Their ranks include or have included British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, composer Felix Mendelssohn, planetary astronomer William Herschel, and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice.

The "organs taken from dead Palestinians" story immediately struck me as phony, because organs for transplant must be removed from living bodies, not dead ones. Organs from people who are truly corpses aren't transplantable. ("Brain dead" organ donors often receive anesthesia, IV fluids, antibiotics, ventilator care and other life-support measures -- provisions that we don't make for people who are truly dead. Over the years, several mothers who were "brain dead" have given birth, which dead women can't do.)

Gill O’Teen ✝✡| 9.2.09 @ 11:57AM

I have pointed out in my comments to numerous other “American Spectator” articles, that I personally was once the beneficiary of Jewish compassion, helping hands extended to me when I certainly needed them. When I was caught in a rip tide and would surely have drowned, a young Jewish man put himself at risk and pulled me out of the ocean. The modern Israeli state has been the most steadfast and loyal friend of the United States since the Second World War.

Much of the original hatred of the Jewish people stems from their devotion to The One True God, which in ancient times was a fairly unique concept. In Imperial Rome, since faithful Jews did not worship the emperors, they were considered enemies. This status was later transferred to the early Christian community which at the time was considered a Jewish sect.

There would be no Christianity as known today without its Jewish Founder. All His original followers were Jewish. His Mother was Jewish. Saint Joseph was Jewish. Saints Peter, Andrew, James - son of Zebedee, James - son of Alphaeus, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, Thaddeus, Simon, and Matthias were all Jewish. Saint Paul was Jewish as was Joseph of Arimathea. Mary Magdalene was Jewish, and she was there when they crucified Our Lord. She is also the first person to whom He revealed Himself after His Resurrection. She spoke this Good News to the Apostles. By witnessing to them, she is considered by many The Apostle to the Apostles.

Despots throughout history have recognized the importance of distracting those they would rule by diverting attention to easy often defenseless targets such as the Jews were in many parts of Europe. Hitler’s goal was dominion of the world. But first he had to secure his rule in Germany. By blinding his lemmings with Jew hatred, he was able to blind them to his true purpose.

If you hate Jews, you hate me!

Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

David Govett| 9.2.09 @ 11:57AM

Sweden's ability to demonize distant Jews while denying the Muslim threat in its living room is a testament to human denial and should be a warning to the American voter: Watch the magician's other hand as he attempts to distract.

Big Leo| 9.2.09 @ 12:02PM

Lenin once remarked , "Anti-Semitism is socialism for the stupid." It's the ultimate conspiracy motif in history. Just reading the arguments put forth by its proponents is amusing, in a horrifying sort of way. I disagree with Lenin, however. Liberalism is socialism for idiots. Anti-Semitism is socialism for trolls

Solo| 9.2.09 @ 12:03PM

Eric Damon, above, makes a good point here but...in a broader sense, what is really going on is the nature of and the root cause by which a group can be identified as being of "the other".

Differences in race make for ready identification as "the other" and thus wear the burden of potential bigotry around with them wherever they go within a particular culture. Ie....blacks within a mostly western European culture.
From this, an additional isolation from the predominate culture ensues as a particular group responds to this prejudice by grouping together; a sort of "circling the wagons" reaction, if you will.
We see this in our own country and not just with blacks but with "China Town(s)" in every major city and with the native American culture self-sequestered on Reservations.
As the various "others" of a different race go forth and assimilate into the predominate culture, it eventually becomes obvious that what makes them of "the other" is literally skin deep.

The persistent prejudice against and wild speculation about the Jews is rooted in a different origin. Modern anti-semitism was born of Europe where cultural identities were rooted more in nationalism and religion than in race.
What separated the Jews as being of "the other" was more than just their religious differences. A peculiar aspect of this particular group is that there is more to being "Jewish" than the practice of Judaism. It is a persistent culture of its own and resists integration into the predominate cultures they inhabited. Moreover, it is a difference that is perceived by the paranoid to be much deeper than differences of the skin. This, I think, is what led to such wild speculations. The differences resided deep within "the other" and could never be fully known. All that could be known was that they were of "the other".

The Canadian mentioned in the article who claimed that the Jews "owned" Germany prior to WW2 is an exaggeration but with a small kernel of truth , at least, in the perceptions of the German people of the time. The relative cultural isolation of the Jewish community within Germany certainly fed this perception.

All it took was the consolidation of power by a socialist/fascist movement led by a charismatic sociopath-sprinkle in a little Darwinian Materialist philosophy to lend a measure of intellectual legitimacy (for seasoning), bake at 1200 degrees for 15 minutes and....PRESTO! Holocaust!

The worst of it is; it could happen again. It'll just look different next time.

Tony in Central PA| 9.2.09 @ 12:33PM

I'm currently reading a book about the Black Death in Europe. Accompanying the Plague, were often episodes of horrific violence and brutality against Jewish communities. Its almost as if the population believed the Plague was some kind of hungry deity demanding victims and that Jews could fulfill this purpose. Pope Clement VI issued several Papal Bulls against these practices but this didn't stop everything. It seems antiSemitism has deep and broad roots in Europe.
Modern antiSemitism in Europe, as some have mentioned, may have an additional dimension. Namely, the rise of Islam. The populations descended from the traditional inhabitants of Europe prefer to display their bravado against an imaginary boogeyman ( " the Jews " ) to the tangible threat that Islam will pose to their democracies.

jeremias| 9.2.09 @ 12:51PM

Islamic Jew-hatred is minor compared to the history of Christian Jew-hatred. As proved by rivers of Jewish blood, no verse in the Quran is as "satanic" as Matthew 27:25.

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 1:26PM

Leaving the non-issue of anti-semitism aside, Paul Craig Roberts makes an air-tight case for imposing sanctions against Israel at Chronicles this week:

http://www.chroniclesmagazine......nd-the-us/

If there's a hole somewhere in his argument I can't find it.

Aaron| 9.2.09 @ 1:32PM

To George Shoresh - I am ashamed a fellow human can think your way - at first read it seems so ridiculous...but when I realize you are serious I am just saddened.

Realize that people are just people, trying to be happy and free, raise a family and nothing more.

I sometimes hear claims of Antisemitism and it is usually a minor slip of the tongue or a moment of thoughtless rhetoric, but in reading your comments I realize that it is real...and it exists.

But I also realize it is NOT HATE but rather IGNORANCE.

You cannot really hate something that doesn't exist...the "Jews" you describe are just a fantasy.

I feel sorry for you George Shoresh.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 1:41PM

Jeremias
You are simply too stupid to post on this site.
Hmmm, was that the verse about Jews demanding Jesus' blood be on their children?

Well it certainly has been hasn't it. But dumbbunny, thank God almighty the Jews rejected Jesus.
Thank God He submitted to it, and instead did not call down a legion of Angels to scour this planet with fire.
Thank God His perfect sacrifice sprinkles his blood on every human being, just for repentence, and following Him the best we can.

Dumbbunny aside, folks.....we are all rescued by the Grace of God. Period.
As a father, I could die in a moment in place of my son. Our Creator could not. Larger responsibilities. (providing grace over a universe you see)
SO!
The real question is.....is our Creator and Sustainer Stupid? Is He blood thirsty? Is He just?
In some remarkable fashion, He provided us a pure part of himself in Jesus of Nazereth.

That one single time, God Himself entered history in a unique way.
For the first time in history..."Love your neighbor as yourself" became the narrative. 12 little discouraged Jews changed the whole world.
Hmmmmm...

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 1:42PM

"Realize that people are just people, trying to be happy and free, raise a family and nothing more."

Even Iraqi civilians? Even Iranians?

PL| 9.2.09 @ 1:55PM

To George Shoresh,As I have never heard of B.Franklins being antisemitc ,I checked on Vikipedia-Franklin and the Jews. Read it including the comment on the Neonazi groups and Palestinian sites promoting this historical forgery.

Tony in Central PA| 9.2.09 @ 1:55PM

OK, I'll bite jeremias. Explain what you find so " Satanic " about Matthew 27:25. I'll also challenge your assertions about the Quran and the history of Islamic - Jewish conflict, but maybe that's another thread.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 1:56PM

Well folks, once again we find a turd plopping into our punchbowl.
Toddard gets a three pointer! Yaaaaay!
I am a Texan!
Remember The Alamo!

In the meantime, back at the punchbowl, Toddard is quaffing from his mentor's cup in that idiot article he posted.
(good punch if one can get past the smell) Grin!

The "hole in the argument" is the hole that wrote it.
Don't get dehydrated now. Have some more punch.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡| 9.2.09 @ 1:57PM

S.L. Toddard, “If there's a hole somewhere in (Paul Craig Roberts’) argument I can't find it.” Well, I bothered to read his bilge, and after puking blood I have to admit that’s not the only hole you can’t find.

jeremias, for your consideration: “From the context of Matthew 26–27 Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus applies only to Judas, the religious leaders of Jerusalem, and the mob of Jerusalem before the judgment seat of Pilate. It was the unbelieving Jews of Jerusalem and Israel, not all Jews in general, whom Matthew and the New Testament indict for their failure to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and their complicity in His death.” http://www.levitt.com/essays/bloodlibel.html

Besides the one you reference, here’s another Biblical passage: “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

And another: “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

And to anticipate your objection that my passages are from the Old Testament, whereas, yours is from the New, I counter with this “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17). According to that Evangelist, these words were spoken by The True Messiah.

And from my earlier post, consider the roster of Jews I posted. Are you telling me that their children are guilty of committing crucifixion?

You and toddy are bigots.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 2:12PM

"The "hole in the argument" is the hole that wrote it."

Hahaha. You never say anything insightful or profound, but once every couple of months you say something that's very funny and almost witty. That was a good one.

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 2:14PM

"You and toddy are bigots."

To so misuse a term is to demonstrate unfamiliarity with its definition.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡| 9.2.09 @ 2:35PM

S.L. Toddard, according to my personal dictionary “bigot” is a contraction for “big idiot”. And if you cannot find anything wrong with Paul Craig Roberts’ balderdash, you qualify. And I’m not laughing.
Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

Alan Brooks| 9.2.09 @ 3:04PM

"Even Iraqi civilians? Even Iranians? "

and they are being oppressed by Israel as well?

then let's leave both Iraq and Afghanistan, send Germans to Madagascar, and settle Israelis in Germany. Then the Arab brethren can kill each other off one by one. Arab sisters? they don't count.

Mike Giles| 9.2.09 @ 3:04PM

Etiquette Man| 9.2.09 @ 10:13AM
"Where is the hostility from Jews toward evangelicals? "
Not all Jews, simply a group of public Jews (i.e. Liberals) who are hostile to evangelicals because they perceive them as simply another segment of the Conservative Right. In addition, evangelicals stand in the way of the long term project of the left to drive God from the public square.

Mike Giles| 9.2.09 @ 3:16PM

George Shoresh| 9.2.09 @ 11:59AM

"What world famous men
said about the Jews
The Jews are the only people in the world who have found hostility in every country in which they settled in any numbers. The big question is - WHY?"
Because in most cases they were weak, helpless, usually unarmed and didn't fight back. So it was easy to point the finger at them, when a scapegoat was needed? Because they insisted upon worshiping their one God and keeping themselves separate; as opposed to the emperor, or multiple gods, or the state? Because they were usually better educated and/or more cosmopolitan than the backward masses they lived among? Because the first ignorant anti- Semite simply provided "reasons" for the next ignorant anti-Semite? Because those same anti-Semites are angry and frustrated that the Jews have somehow survived millenia of hostility, and outlived enemies going back to the Egypt of the Pharoahs?

Helen Donnelly| 9.2.09 @ 3:22PM

CPAP Masks: Picking a half dozen words from the official vatican response to Ahmadinejad is extremely irresponsible, and totally out of line to be included in an intelligent article like this. Come on...

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 3:41PM

Okay, Toddard
I shall write something profound.

You, madam, are in serious trouble. I am sorry.
IF God is GOD, and His special offering to human kind was Jesus of Nazereth, then you, madam, are in a universe of hurt.
I do thank God that you...have not yet to my knowledge...cursed THE HOLY SPIRIT.

That is the one Sin that cannot be forgiven by God....................ever. He Himself made that rule, and it is eternal.

...Be very careful in your response, Toddard. If I am correct, and you do so, my only response to you hereafter must be....."I'm sorry".

Deborah D | 9.2.09 @ 3:51PM

Mr. Giles, thanks for your excellent response to an idiot. To hate simply because "some" people exist is a form of insanity, and a road Europe has already traveled. For it to raise its head again today, truly is a canary in some kind of coal mine. Insanity -- where will it visit next?

G.K. Chesterton was right: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing— they believe in anything."

dasboot| 9.2.09 @ 4:29PM

Jews are not hated for no reason. They are hated because they excel in science, art and business. Israel is a fine example of a Western society. Read the Israel Test reviewed on this website. Great book. For the record, I'm not Jewish.

Pingback| 9.2.09 @ 4:33PM

The American Spectator : The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism | Cyprus today links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…in Cyprus today .” (Roman History). DIODORUS SICULUS. First century Greek historian.Observed that Jews treated other people as enemies … View original post here: The American Spectator : The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism Tags: history, people Today Leave a Reply Name (required) Mail (will not be published) (required) Website Business Today : Recent Comments Breaking Blog…

Dan| 9.2.09 @ 4:39PM

Think of Sweden as if it were ABC,CBS or NBC. These television stations are swamped by liberal so there is no one to tell them they may be wrong on issues. The Swedish government is the same. It is staffed by anti semites so they think everyone is an anti semite. There is no one to balance their thoughts. They are so steeped in anti semitism they don't see another avenue.

Red Phillips | 9.2.09 @ 6:01PM

In our PC oppressed culture, the misuse of the charge of anti-Semitism to stifle debate and silence and demonize people is a much bigger problem than is anti-Semitism itself.

I don't doubt that anti-Semitism exists, but most of what is called by that name is not. It is not anti-Semitic to be against the War, think the Israel lobby has too much influence on American foreign policy, think America should be more even-handed or neutral regarding the Israel/Palestinian issue, think the fact that Iran may pose a threat to Israel is not America's problem or justification for America to go to war, etc.

The charge of anti-Semitism should never be made based on political positions. There should be evidence of overt hate or ill will. I have been called anti-Semitic before in our interminable interventionist vs. non-interventionist debates because I said we should end foreign aid to Israel (as we should end foreign aid to all countries). So not wanting our nation that is broke to hand over a few billion to another nation means that I specifically harbor some ill-will toward that nation and its people particularly. During the Ron Paul campaign I saw the charge of anti-Semitism raised many times with regard to ending the Fed. Because we “all know” what is behind any attack on banking. It’s “code” don’t you know. This kind of absurd over reach is crying wolf and it harms the cause of those crying it. The charge is losing its power and rightly so.

And the sort of ridiculous to the point of cartoonish hypersensitivity displayed in this article doesn’t help. There really wasn’t anything particularly problematic with the reply of the Swedish Foreign Minister. What was he suppose to say? Bark out so formulaic pre-approved PC slobber fest? It was a tabloid. It wasn’t state-run media. “No comment” would have been perfectly appropriate. Is Obama supposed to denounce stuff that appears in the Enquirer? Nor was the Vatican’s response at all problematic or inadequate. What is offensive is the last line about collusion. So failure to toe perfectly the PC line is collusion with haters. Whatever.

Also offensive was the idea that anti-Semitism is some above and beyond form of bigotry. Jews are a PC protected victims class. What conservatives should be worried about are the groups that are PC Cultural Marxist approved to hate. These would include whites, males, conservative Christians, traditionalist Catholics, and Southerners. Of which I am four out of five. If anyone has a reason to gripe it is me, a conservative Christian, Southern, white male. Hating on us is encouraged. Don’t believe me? See Kathleen Parker, Joe Klein, and every MSM description of a TEA Party.

Steve| 9.2.09 @ 6:13PM

TO RED PHILLIPS.....

AMEN TO YOU BOTHER....I AM WITH YOU 110%

Pingback| 9.2.09 @ 6:19PM

The American Spectator : The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism | americantoday links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…year leave Israel for the U. S. - all with dollar signs in their eyes. Jews have used their vaunted money-power to seize control of the Democratic … Read the original: The American Spectator : The Refusal to Recognize Anti-Semitism Share and Enjoy: Tags: eyes, Today, topic Today Leave a Reply Name (required) Mail (will not be published) (required) Website Headlines America abc and- best black corp-…

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 6:37PM

Hi Red
Some good thoughts............but Ron Paul could not get elected to be my dog-catcher. He has a way of loosing every single issue....oops!

The dumb idiots that split the vote to let the COMMUNISTS get all the highest offices, and let everyone else stay at home due to your propaganda...enjoy us cleaning up your mess.

Euroarabia is a fact. One Missle and they fold like a tent.
You guys are either dumb as a rock...or dumb as a rock.
Mainstream America gets truly bored with your prissyness.
Lock and load, knothead...youall let this happen. Fight for your prissiness.

Michael L. Hauschild| 9.2.09 @ 6:40PM

When I get to be Supreme Big Pooba I will impose two edicts.
1. Nobody gets to speak about someone else’s religion.
2. No one gets to impose any of his or her religious views on anyone else.
Heads will roll, oh will the heads roll.

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 6:45PM

"Be very careful in your response, Toddard. If I am correct, and you do so, my only response to you hereafter must be"

I don't have a response. I have no idea what you're saying.

Father Ducque| 9.2.09 @ 7:09PM

This exchange has demonstrated one fact conclusively. It demonstrates that the "anti-Semitic" has been so overused that it no longer means anything. Because it can equally apply to a person who utters a mild social criticism as well as one who earnestly wants to eradicate God's People from the face of the Earth, it has been fatally diluted.

That is what comes from "crying wolf".

Among the gentiles, the hearing of the word "anti-semitic" now causes the rolling of eyes. Too bad, because there are some real bad actors out there, and one can't call out "wolf" anymore.

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 7:15PM

"So failure to toe perfectly the PC line is collusion with haters. Whatever"

That is the general consensus here amongst the Fox News Right, who are incapable of understanding how such a pronouncement contradicts conservative principles.

And don't forget, these are also people who embrace the nonsensical notion that not only does something called a "Judeo-Christian tradition" exist, but America was founded upon it. That our "special relationship" with Israel earns us the enmity of the Arab world is beyond dispute, and we need no more evidence to demonstrate that this enmity is a threat. Still, most commenters here vehemently oppose realigning that relationship in a way that *enhances* American security rather than damages it, which is a long way of saying that they put Israel's interest before America's.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 7:17PM

Toddard,
of course you do not. E-mail Bob. He can fill you in. He went to Haaaavaad don't you know.

Read carefully instead of mouthing off and you would understand what I wrote...turdbowlsplash!

...in the meantime...I'm sorry. I am very very sorry. I tried my best.
Lord, didn't I...try my best? Sorry, Lord God.

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 7:26PM

Kenny, I do not understand what you mean by "curse the Holy Spirit". Do I have that right - you are asking me if I "curse the Holy Spirit"? If that is the question - and it is an extremely odd one - the answer is: No.

I am not a warlock.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.2.09 @ 7:27PM

Michael, hi!
Who is going to roll the heads...you...you sit inacornerdonothingsexceptgripepersons?
Duh read your own comment...duh!

Michael L. Hauschild| 9.2.09 @ 6:40PM
When I get to be Supreme Big Pooba I will impose two edicts.
1. Nobody gets to speak about someone else’s religion.
2. No one gets to impose any of his or her religious views on anyone else.
Heads will roll, oh will the heads roll.

I ain't imposing anything. On this site, any dumbunney can say any dumb thing.

Are you imposed yet? NO?
then shut the hell up and contribute moving forward! http://judgeroy.wordpress.com

Lola| 9.3.09 @ 12:01AM

I have never experienced so much hatred and ant-semitism as when working in Reuters. Every-one felt free to bash Jews openly in public. It seemed to be Reuters official policy.

Etiquette Man| 9.3.09 @ 2:08AM

Re: Mike Giles| 9.2.09 @ 3:04PM

Thanks for the reply, Mike. What you have cited, though, strikes me as more a POLITICAL objection than a religious one.

It is certainly true that any number of liberals who happen to be Jewish oppose evangelicals because of our opposition to the leftist agenda, but I don't see where that has anything to do with religion.

Personally speaking, my interactions with Jews in matters of faith have been uniformly positive. We have disagreed civilly, affirmed our personal respect for each other and for our differing opinions, and have come away better for the experience.

On the other hand, we get called all sorts of ugly names by "mainline" Protestants. I've personally been called a "fascist" and a "fundamentalist" by such people.

Never been called anything ugly by a Jewish person, though. Quite the contrary. In my experience, Jews are single-most slandered group on the planet (including, sadly, the USA).

Thanks again for the reply,

Best,
EM

AnnieG| 9.3.09 @ 2:38AM

They say if you say a thing often enough and nobody protest, it becomes a fact. I have to wonder why it's so easy to condem Jews, but let one breathe out about Muslims and war starts. Are we conditioned and brainwashed or just dumbed down ? There has been more anti-Semitic propaganda since the election than ever.
I heard an interview today with the author of The Blood of Lambs. Scary.
Just remember when the Jews are anihilated, Americans are next. Rev Martin Niemoller was correct when he testified before Congress.
Some of you I wouldn't want to sit next to in church.

Serge from Wellington| 9.3.09 @ 3:54AM

To S.L. Toddard:

You suggest there are no holes in the Cronicles article's argumentation on desirability of crippling sanctions against Israel (and the USA, as a matter of fact... are you for this too?). You're right to some extend: I wouldn't call a "hole" the opening sentence of the article - wide breach is better definition for the stupidity of such a scale.

Look at that: "In Israel, a country stolen from the Palestinians, fanatics control the government."

Israel is not a country stolen from anyone, and in the time of Israel's revival "Palestinians" was the name for Jews living in Palestine, and for them only. So the Jewish state is a country stolen from Jews?!

And fanatics definitely do not control the current Israeli government, nor did they in the past. Methinks, one doesn't need reading anything of rant that follows...

Conclusion is obvious: the writer of this loony Left agitprop is, not surprisingly, an anti-Semitic Stalinist. As a polite person, I'll refrain from comments on his fans...

Serge from Wellington| 9.3.09 @ 4:18AM

S.L. Toddard| 9.2.09 @ 2:14PM
"You and toddy are bigots."

To so misuse a term is to demonstrate unfamiliarity with its definition.

What is the definition of "toddy"? Asking in order not to misuse the term in future.

Serge from Wellington| 9.3.09 @ 4:34AM

A toddy (whatever is its definition) penned this: our "special relationship" with Israel earns us the enmity of the Arab world is beyond dispute, and we need no more evidence to demonstrate that this enmity is a threat.
Translation: Arabs wish to dictate American choice of friends, and are prepared to threat the US to achieve their goal. It's all Joos' fault!

If this isn't antisemitic , what is?

Eigthman| 9.3.09 @ 5:39AM

To S.L.Toddard

Yes I went to that site. If you can't see any holes in the tripe that was written there you must think we are idiots if you are trying to pass yourself as sincere.

The whole article is an absurd, unmeasured diatribe of untruths straight from any arab daily.

You are obviously the raw material of fascism. Now lets see, where did that get Hitler? Oh and now the arabs think that where Germany, the most advanced country of its time, failed they will succeed, being as they are stooped in the obscurantism of the 7th century, right?

Anti-Semitism is not a rational pursuit and a rational person should not be fooled into thinking that it can be dealt with in a reasonable way. You simply don't 'argue' with people who think the world is flat.

It is both pointless and demeanes yourself whilst elevating nonsense to a point somewhere just out of the gutter. Anti-Semitism is a non-falsifiable belief delivered behind the subterfuge of a 'scientific' approach.

S.L. Toddard| 9.3.09 @ 7:44AM

“Israel is not a country stolen from anyone, and in the time of Israel's revival "Palestinians" was the name for Jews living in Palestine, and for them only”

What a marvelous imagination you have. Regardless, at the time of the creation of the Palestinian Mandate, Jews accounted for 8% of Palestinians. Subsequently, wave after wave of Jewish European (and other) colonists arrived, who eventually engaged in successive terrorist acts (of the type that would later be adopted by Al Qaeda) such as Irgun’s bombing of the King David hotel, and other war crimes and atrocities (the Deir Yassin massacre, the Lydda massacre, the Saliha massacre, the Al Dawayima massacre etc), they removed Palestinians from their homes at gunpoint, ethnically cleaned Palestine of its native inhabitants as at Lydda and Ramla and and Mount Carmel etc ("‘the cleansing of Palestine remained the prime objective” said David Ben Gurion), settled on their land and confined the Palestinians to an open-air ghetto of the type the Jews themselves had been confined to in Warsaw. Now, it’s fine for someone to justify these atrocities and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and so forth, but to deny that it happened is simply to deny history.

David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, asked “Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?” And it is a good question. The answer is, of course, because they will *never* get it back, and that is simply reality. Israel is going nowhere. Just because the Israeli people did not exist a century ago does not mean they do not exist now, or that they have no right to the land they conquered and colonized. It’s theirs, they own it, they will fight for it, yadda yadda yadda.

None of this need concern Americans, however. Whomever controls that particular strip of land is of no consequence to us – we have no vital interest there. What *does* concern us is that our blind devotion to the nation-state of Israel earns us the enmity of the Arab world, on whom we depend and with whom we *do* share vital interest, as they own the very same oil that is the lifeblood of our society and economy.

“Conclusion is obvious: the writer of this loony Left agitprop is, not surprisingly, an anti-Semitic Stalinist”

Honestly, it would be better for you to first learn the definition of words like “anti-semite” and “Stalinist” before you use them, or else you will (continue to make yourself look silly. Paul Craig Roberts a “Stalinist” and “anti-semite”! Haha.

Tbart| 12.18.09 @ 3:22PM

Until after 1967 no other people in history other than Jews ever claimed Jerusalem as their spiritual and political capital. No other people have ever had an independent political entity on that territory other than Jews, and they have accomplished it three times in history.

Solo| 9.3.09 @ 9:35AM

Buuuuwaaaahahahaha!

Why is it that every time you scratch a PaulBot venom for Israel spills out....? And all the while complaining that 'anti-semitism' is an over-used term? LOL!

Oh...and by the way Toddard..

Before you start pontificating to others about the miss-use of terms and definitions, you'd better do a little research into the term "NeoCon".

I've observed you use the term in other threads and it is abundantly clear that you wouldn't know a real NeoCon if he walked up and whizzed on your little golden statue of Ron Paul.

Oh...and you might try learning a little history particularly as it regards Israel and the "Palestinians" . Here's a hint for ya':

There never was such a thing as "The Palestinian people" nor was there ever such a thing as a "Nation Of Palestine".
There are only those who live in the geographical region known as "Palestine". Most of whom are Jordanian.
It's sort of like claiming that the State of West Virginia are illegal occupiers of Appalachia.

You see...when you get your history and world view from places like Prison Planet and the Alex Jones show, you're bound to make yourself out to be the fool. And particularly so when you spew this tripe with such self-assured conviction.

Get a clue.

S.L. Toddard| 9.3.09 @ 9:52AM

"The Palestinian people" nor was there ever such a thing as a "Nation Of Palestine"

Straw man. I never asserted either. You are refuting something I never said, and addressing nothing I did say.

Typical.

Father Zosimma| 9.3.09 @ 3:41PM

Because of its over use, the term "anti-semitism"currently means very little. Against those who criticize Israel to those who claim Barbra Streisand is an over-rated hack the charge of anti-semitism has been leveled so regularly that as with the boy who cried "Wolf!", people have just stopped listening.

That being said, if we hadn't been underwriting their country, it wouldn't have been quite so horrifying that it's been Israelis trafficking internationally in the human organ exchange, and while we were quick to condemn Catholic priests for fondling little boys (and worse), where is the national outrage at the rabbis from NJ peddling human organs?

Father Zosimma| 9.3.09 @ 3:54PM

Anyone who thinks that the antipathy that's existed between Christians and Jews is a one way street should read The Talmud.

Moreover, while Christians are enjoined that "Love your neighbor as yourself" means you shall love EVERYONE, Muslims, Christian or Jews; no less than Maimonides states that this same commandment means that you shall love your fellow Jews. While those of the Hebrew persuasion are free to believe what the y wish, intelligent people and Christians really should know precisely what Jews believe.

Kajebt | 9.4.09 @ 4:35AM

Although i am not interested in this kind of topics,but still thank for the writter.U r good.
Bailey Button Ugg Boots

johnson lee | 9.4.09 @ 4:36AM

Bailey Button Ugg Boots

Richard Wicks| 9.4.09 @ 6:09AM

I just had to comment on Ken's statement:

"Ron Paul could not get elected to be my dog-catcher. He has a way of loosing every single issue....oops!"

I would have to say that is entirely true.

Ron Paul is precisely the conservative that conservatives have said they wanted as president for the last 30 years.

He's against nation building, and has a perfect record in congress on that issue.

He's against growth of the Federal government, and as a perfect record in congress on that issue.

He's against raising taxes and is in support of reducing both taxes and government in that cause, and has a perfect record in congress on that issue.

So, in 2000, what is laughably called "conservatives" elected a man that started 2 nation building exercises in the Middle East, expanded the national government by 30% and increased the national debt by 3 trillion dollars all during a time where Republicans dominated and controlled congress and the Judiciary, and they defended Bush during this entire time.

Conservatives today just flap their gums about getting the Federal government and it's spending under control, and when given a rare opportunity to elect a man that has an absolutely perfect record of trying to do exactly that during all of his years in Federal government, they have nothing but derision for him.

Yeah, he's not been successful in getting his legislation through, that's why we're in this mess. Isn't that what conservatives have been complaining about?

And the icing on the cake is now that we have Obama, who has continued the nation building in the Middle East, who has continued the Bush/Paulson ripoff of America, and has continued doing exactly what Bush did, while simply changing RHETORIC, you all hate him.

You're not voters, you're children.

S.L. Toddard| 9.4.09 @ 7:35AM

"So, in 2000, what is laughably called "conservatives" elected a man that started 2 nation building exercises in the Middle East, expanded the national government by 30% and increased the national debt by 3 trillion dollars all during a time where Republicans dominated and controlled congress and the Judiciary"

Obviously these facts alone should be enough for any actual conservative to reject Bush and his party. What you are failing to take into account, though, is that these people believe "conservative" means "Republican Party loyalist". In their minds, if the GOP does it, it's "conservative".

Richard wicks| 9.4.09 @ 8:46AM

I'm not really forgetting to account for anything.

I'm pointing out to these people who have absolutely destroyed the Republican party that they have dragged the name of "conservatism" into the mud.

That was done to Liberals too. You know what a Liberal was? It was somebody that believed in free markets and minimal government regulation in society - close to what Libertarian is seen as today.

The reason Liberal means Communist is because FDR kept saying to everybody he was a "liberal" so as not to panic the business owners of this country.

In another 50 years, Conservative is going to be synonymous with Fascist, because these idiots who keep voting in fascists into office just because they have an (R) at the end of their name, and they have absolutely no understanding, or any desire to understand, what exactly they are voting for.

How many people looked up Obama's record before they voted? He voted to renew the Patriot Act, and he supported (financially) the Iraq War at every opportunity save one during the primaries. It was easy to see he wasn't really going to change anything.

And McCain? He's more "liberal" than Obama is.

We have the government this nation of idiots deserve. I'm fed up with them, and good luck everybody, you did this to yourself. There was Mike Gravel and Ron Paul both excellent politicians. One is a TRUE Democrat and the other a TRUE Republican.

We elected a Communist instead because the nation was so tired of a the last Fascist that half of this stupid country elected in 2000 and 2004.

You people are not conservatives. You don't even have any idea what it means to be a conservative. If you can't do the minimal effort to actually make an intelligent vote, just stay home instead of voting. I'm tired of idiots selecting our leaders. These people are incompetent to vote, and they don't deserve the right.

eigthman| 9.4.09 @ 11:16AM

One is always struck by the supposed solicitude of hypocrites like Toddard for the 'downfallen'. It seems that the only 'imperialism' that can be tolerated is the true imperialism of everyone else EXCEPT that wrongfully ascribed the Jews.

Whilst arab imperialism and irredentism is legitimised by their conquests of 1400 yrs. gone, history is only at the legitimate service of those who are not Jewish.

Certainly a paradox since the Jews are the ones with the most history able to come to service their case. But we know why this is so. Human frailties are only legitimately the property of humans. Therefore, the subliminal implication of the ilk of Toddard is simply that Jews aren't human - and we know what that is a pretext for. Nazis are such easy marks.

If you want a workable definition of anti-Semitism it is found in the methods that selectively impugn Jews for treatment that is found as a commonplace attribute of humanity. arab imperialism is fine. Supposed Jewish 'imperialism' invokes such sanctimonious umbrage and pious outrage.

It is threatening when the Jews demonstrate as a beacon to indigenous people everywhere that the arbitration of history is not final. That a numerically nothing people have prevailed to reclaim their ancient possessions in the face of a corrupt, duplictous world that stood against them. Toddard is a loser. No nation has ever profited from anti-Semitism and America or England will not be the first to do so should they fully go in that direction.

No doubt Toddard writes his slanted specious bile after surrendering all his American properties to its natives and devotes his time to the removal of Europeans from the Americas and righting their endless wrongs all over the world. Because on that scale the Jews will be last on that list so his disproportionate attentions are indicative of another agenda.

But to Toddard, there is never more an injustice ever done than that done to the objects of Jewish action. Otherwise, solicitude for the condition of the arabs is a matter of complete indifference being that they are to him just a bunch of savages. But useful savages if they can be enlisted into the cause of Jew hatred, the external psychosis of self-hatred.

As if Hitler's immeasurable loathing of the Jews was not mirrored in the commodification and summary disposability of the German people as well. Does this not ring a bell ? No-one cares less about an arab more than another arab. arab commodification of their own even secured the envy of Hitler, the resident European expert at it.

As if arab massacres of Jews don't predate the droll, usual lists trotted out by Toddards. Deir Yasin by the way was a pitch day long battle fought against every house there with every arabs armed. Europeans massacre for money. The Jews massacre for their lives and their existential rights. Stay tuned. There will be more to come in this department.

Here's the rub Toddard. You are no longer a point of reference in such matters for Jews. Europeans have nothing to inform the Jews about when it comes to morality or massacres or little else in that regard. I guess I have already over-indulged myself.

S.L. Toddard| 9.4.09 @ 12:52PM

“It seems that the only 'imperialism' that can be tolerated is the true imperialism of everyone else EXCEPT that wrongfully ascribed the Jews.”

Cite any “imperialism” I “tolerate”. I myself have argued many, many times on this very site against American imperialism, and only care about Israeli imperialism so far as we Americans must have a hand in it.

“Whilst arab imperialism and irredentism is legitimised by their conquests of 1400 yrs. Gone”

Really? You believe the Arab imperialism that conquered Palestine centuries ago was legitimate?

“history is only at the legitimate service of those who are not Jewish.”

What an odd opinion.

“Human frailties are only legitimately the property of humans. Therefore, the subliminal implication of the ilk of Toddard is simply that Jews aren't human - and we know what that is a pretext for. Nazis are such easy marks.”

Wow. The Nazi-Card. It is a good thing, I think, that that particular card has been played so often and so absurdly that it has lost all meaning, however predictable its playing remains.

“If you want a workable definition of anti-Semitism it is found in the methods that selectively impugn Jews for treatment that is found as a commonplace attribute of humanity. arab imperialism is fine. Supposed Jewish 'imperialism' invokes such sanctimonious umbrage and pious outrage.”

I am not outraged at all that the Israelis stole their land from Palestinian Arabs. Good for them on their thievery.

“No doubt Toddard writes his slanted specious bile after surrendering all his American properties to its natives and devotes his time to the removal of Europeans from the Americas and righting their endless wrongs all over the world”

My god, no. What a silly notion. I would no more recommend that Americans give their land back to the people they stole it from than I would recommend the Israelis do so. The very idea is ludicrous. But let me get this straight: you believe Indians do NOT have a right to the land conquered from them by Americans, and that Arabs do NOT have a right to the land conquered from them by Israelis, but… Israelis DID have a right to the land conquered from them by the Arabs? Is that right? That seems to me to be a hypocritical singling out of the Israelis, applying to them different standards than everyone else. It positively reeks of anti-semitism, sir.

“Otherwise, solicitude for the condition of the arabs is a matter of complete indifference being that they are to him just a bunch of savages. But useful savages if they can be enlisted into the cause of Jew hatred, the external psychosis of self-hatred.”

“Jew hatred”? Perhaps you are responding to the wrong poster. I have said nothing nor even implied such against the Jewish people. As for the Arabs, the wretchedness of their condition is only my concern so far as America causes it, either directly or by funding agents who contribute to it.

“As if arab massacres of Jews don't predate the droll, usual lists trotted out by Toddards.”

I’m sorry you find lists of past atrocities so droll and tiresome – are you arguing that we all forget all past atrocities, and relegate (for instance) the Deir Yassin massacre, Auschwitz, the Lydda massacre, Treblinka, the Saliha massacre, Bergen-Belsen and the Al Dawayima massacres to the dustbin of history, never to be mentioned again? I have a sneaking suspicion that you believe there are certain atrocities to be trotted out periodically ad infinitum, while other, less convenient ones be forgotten. I wonder if this might be another example of your tendency to single out a certain group for singular treatment.

Very disconcerting.

“The Jews massacre for their lives and their existential rights.”

Their existential right to someone else’s land? Is that an actual existential right, do you think?

Father Zossima| 9.4.09 @ 1:37PM

S. L. Toddard wrote: "Obviously these facts alone should be enough for any actual conservative to reject Bush and his party. What you are failing to take into account, though, is that these people believe "conservative" means "Republican Party loyalist". In their minds, if the GOP does it, it's "conservative". "

Well said. Conservatives have got to stop throwing their votes away on republican candidates.

Red Phillips | 9.4.09 @ 1:55PM

SLT, as you might have noticed from my comment below the Paul Craig Roberts' article, I think there are problems with PCR's rhetoric both in style and substance. In an effort to convert interventionists to the cause of non-intervention, there might be better people to refer them to than PCR. I certainly would not lead with him. That said, anyone who thinks PCR is a Stalinist is an ignorant fool. That was the Reagan administration he served in wasn't it? I do think he at times molds his rhetoric so as to cater to the Counter Punch crowd who run his column and seem to like him.

Honestly, this article reads like a spoof. It is like a SNL skit making fun of the hysterical, hypersensitive anti-anti-Semite. The Swedish Prime Minister said “all strange debate contributions” and that occasioned this whole article? Really? That might make even Abe Foxman and Morris Dees blush. Reminds me of the recent incident when the Pope made some comment about millions of Jews killed in the holocaust and he got reprimanded by the anti-anti-Semite thought police for not saying six million. So I guess not saying six million and only saying millions is tantamount to holocaust denial. I mean you can’t make this stuff up. That is like a caricature of PC. Like the black city councilman who objected to the use of the term “black hole” as racist.

Routinely objections to Obama such as the TEA Parties and the Town Hall protests are characterized as illegitimate solely based on the fact that most of the participants are white, and support for Obama is inherently good and legitimate because the supporters represent a beautiful multicultural “tableau.” If conservative want to get worked up about discrimination and bigotry then there you go. Hatin’ on whitey is alive and well and culturally sanctioned. It is a much bigger problem than the anti-Semitism represented by “all strange debate contributions” or by non-interventionist conservatives griping about Israeli influence on American foreign policy. Step back. Take a few breaths. It’s called perspective.

Pingback| 9.4.09 @ 7:09PM

Steynian 380 « Free Canuckistan! links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…RE – BBC News: Two bloggers from Azerbaijan are facing up to five years in jail after posting a video of a donkey giving a news conference on YouTube …. (internationalfreepresssociety) ~ ON THE REFUSAL to Recognize Anti-Semitism …. (spectator) ~ MERE COMMENTS ON THE Lockerbie Bomber Release: Christian Compassion a Fig Leaf for Politics? …. (merecomments) ~ A TRUE FEMINIST smacks down…

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eigthman| 9.5.09 @ 3:24AM

S.L.Toddard. 'arab lands' were never such. That is a convenient fiction upon which all rests . The Jews didn't steal anything. It was always theirs. It has been theirs for 3000 years.

I know you can't stand it but get that much straight.

Your problem is that they reclaimed it. 'odd opinion'?.
That is exactly your opinion. Obfuscation is the answer when you have none, this much is transparent and why the substantive elements of my post remain unanswered.

The perpetrators of atrocities cannot expect consideration when they are rightfully repaid in kind.

So why use Deir Yassin etc. as an example of supposed Jewish culpability if atrocities should not be forgotten?

It implies the very opposite of ignorance of past atrocities. You only want to trot out supposed massacres that assist your bias. Your persistent selectivity only proves the points made.

On the subject of massacres of Jews, arabs have been foremost in that business without the specious pretext of 'occupation' or Israel or land or anything.

Bosnian muslims were eager recruits into the SS Handschar division and made up all the personnel ranks thereof which murdered 60,000 Balkan Jews under the tutelage of Arafat's uncle, Mufti of Jerusalem - Husseini who also incited 1929 massacres and pogroms of Jews.

Massacre is all arabs, and Europeans for that matter, understand. Historically, that is pretty obvious. The darling 'innocent arabs' whom you paint as idyllic, 'dispossed natives' were planning sites and digging pits waiting for Rommel's break-through from Egypt in order to, guess what? Massacre the Jews! (whom arabs called palestinians then) under German expert technical direction.

As if the fact of citing the killing of arabs by Jews mitigates or compromises one iota their right to their ancient possessions.

Again, killing one's enemy is an illegitimate activity if it is done by Jews. The delegitimization of human responses, when they are (otherwise unsurprisingly) undertaken by Jews is the resort of anti-Semites when the history is both unknown and against them.

I mean why bother with that? arabs were and are intent on massacring Jews so what's wrong with delivering to the arabs that which they find good in their own eyes? What? Because it offends Christendom? No-one cares! Especially not the Jews who have rejected the specious morals of Christendom from its inception. Again, Christians have nothing to lecture the Jews on regarding morals because the Jews invented that which is always cited at them by Christians.

arabs have never felt the need to resort to anything else but massacre. The 'crimes' of Jews for garbage like Toddard is that Jews first, resort to self-defense and second, have the temerity to do so successfully.

Toddard. Don't bother. Jews killing arabs is not going to awaken any feelings of guilt nor assist a stacked paradigm whose premise is to always charge the victim with the crimes of the perpetrator no matter what the provocations to the victims are.

And otherwise get with the program because the 'massacre' business is not over there and the readings are all bad for losers like arabs.

arabs and Toddards have become so accustomed to killing Jews with impunity that it is second nature to them and take it as such an affront when their 'right' to continue to do so is brought into question. Then all manner of logical, historical and moral sleight of hand and subterfuge are deployed to 'justify' it all.

Toddard you are a waste of time. Let us see who prevails. Where the mightiest country in the whole world at the time attempted to exterminate the Jews and failed the arabs, stooped in 7th century obscurantism and human slavery - your clients- will succeed, right?

Israel will prosper, expunge the arabs (both internal and external) now waging war against her from her midst and prevail. There is no lie that Toddard can bring that will change any of this. Just keep up this useless grind, but you will have to do it without me.

fuzzywzhe| 9.5.09 @ 6:49AM

Eightman,

Who said this:

"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."

That would be Theodor Herzl talking about the fictitious people that didn't exist, according to you. What you are repeating is a fiction. You can go and look up the census of 1922 done by the British when they controlled the area. If you want to go further back, you can discover the land was registered in the Ottoman land Act of 1958 - mostly falsely I may add by unscrupulous non land owners that simply lied about their ownership for what turned out later to be quick and easy profit.

Herzl also wrote:

"The antisemites WILL BECOME our most loyal friends, the antisemites nations will become our allies."

which is absolutely true. Bigots don't care about history, or right or wrong if it doesn't directly affect them anyhow. In 1948, they cared about ridding Europe of Jews which is why the UN voted for resolution 184, and today anti-Semites justify everything Israel does, especially to people that have little or no understanding of the conflict, like you. You wouldn't want to be labeled anti-Semitic would you? Because everybody is that makes the smallest utterance of objecting to Israeli policies. We live in a world of Political Correctness, or didn't you realize you were part of it?

It's all irrelevant anyhow, the state can't continue to exist as it does anyhow. No war can live in continual conflict with it's neighbors forever. The Palestinians will be happy with a country that's totally impoverished and crime ridden, since that's a big step up from what they have now. The secular Jews of Israel which are the people that keep Israel Jewish won't want to live in a 3rd world country - they will flee to Europe, the Americas and even Russia, as the indigenous Christian and Muslim Arab population gradually outpopulates the Jewish one.

Israel will continue to exist as a state, in fact, it will finally be "greater Israel", it will just be run by Arab Mulsims, Christians and ultra Orthodox Jews.

Think about it, Israel for 60 years now has been trying to get the Palestinians to leave. In order for Israel to survive as a Jewish state, they will have to kill the non Jewish population there, which already outnumbers them when you include the Israeli Arab population and the Palestinian Arab population.

All the Palestinians will have to do is wait, and not get murdered en masse. Although the Zionists do have a startling amount in common with Fascists, like fabricating history, endless propaganda, etc., I don't think they really have the stomach to murder all those people and even if they did and even if the world sat by and did nothing, it would be carefully documented by the world and that crime would destroy Judaism.

Solo| 9.5.09 @ 8:54AM

Eigthman Wrote:

" S.L.Toddard. 'arab lands' were never such. That is a convenient fiction upon which all rests . The Jews didn't steal anything. It was always theirs. It has been theirs for 3000 years.

I know you can't stand it but get that much straight.

The perpetrators of atrocities cannot expect consideration when they are rightfully repaid in kind.

So why use Deir Yassin etc. as an example of supposed Jewish culpability if atrocities should not be forgotten?

It implies the very opposite of ignorance of past atrocities. You only want to trot out supposed massacres that assist your bias. Your persistent selectivity only proves the points made. "

Exactly!

Toddard's screed about Israeli atrocities is what reveals his burning contempt for Israel. It is similar to describing the antagonists of WW2 by listing only the Fire bombing of Dresden, Tokyo and the atomic attacks of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Such selective descriptions are as disingenuous as they are ill-informed.

Israel is a secular, democratic Constitutional republic and the only of its kind in the entire Middle East. Our support of that state is in the finest traditions of conservative values as applied to foreign policy.

And don't let the anti-semitic, neo-isolationists of the RuPaul movement tell you otherwise.

Solo| 9.5.09 @ 9:25AM

Oh...and hey, Fuzzywzhe...

Who said this:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."

That would be Zuhair Muhsim. Former (as in deceased) Military Commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council.

It is impossible to understand the true nature of the Arab/Israeli conflict without understanding the origins of identifying these Syrian and Jordanian refugees as "Palestinians". It is nothing more than a rhetorical construct created by Arab Muslims to secure empathy and to reinforce the illusion that the Israelis are occupiers and don't belong there.

Take a look at a map of the proposed "Palestinian" territories that would become a "State of Palestine". You'll notice that they are in three separate, unconnected areas. You'll also notice that these three unconnected areas surround Israel.

Is that "Israeli propaganda", too?

Here's a bonus question:

How did Palestine get its name? And ...what is the entomology of the word "Palestine"?

S.L. Toddard| 9.5.09 @ 2:34PM

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

-David Ben Gurion

fuzzywzhe| 9.5.09 @ 5:27PM

Solo,

What you ignore is that it's absolutely irrelevant if there is a "Palestinian identity" or, a nation.

What matters is a bunch of people got kicked off their land in the last 70 years, and they're mad as hell. These people and their descendants have nowhere to go. Egypt doesn't want them, Jordan doesn't want them Lebanon doesn't want them. They have no citizenship with any country in the world.

They are stateless, and they have no options. They can't just leave. The wealthy that could have left, left long ago.

Israel has done it's best to encourage them to leave, and those that could, did. What's left are the people that didn't have the money or the education to escape. Israel done a fine job of denying the populace an education, and that's taken away any chance the next generation could leave. They are economically worthless to everybody.

These people are desperate, poor, uneducated, and have no options - so what do desperate, poor, and uneducated people do?

It doesn't even MATTER who is right and wrong at this point. It doesn't even matter that Israel has Jewish only towns, and the Armenian Christians get spit upon regularly, it'd doesn't matter that Christian Churches are regularly vandalized or the Baptist Church was burned to the ground there in the early 1980s. It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you think, and it doesn't matter what I think.

The inevitable is already set on course. Israel has 2 choices now. Either they are forced to become a real democracy and the Arab population will return and there will be a greater Israel, and Jewish people will be a minority there, or they have to have a genocide of the Arab Christian and Muslim population there to maintain their majority.

Israel could have made peace 50 years ago. They have all the power, money and weapons. They have control the water - but as long as they've been in conflict since the mid 1970s, they've gotten a TON of money in "aid" from the United States, and their corrupt politicians would rather have that money than make peace with a bunch of people they consider subhuman - how these people threaten to outnumber them. Walls have gone up, discrimination has become blatant, and everywhere now calls for forcible removal of Arabs are coming from politicians and citizens.

It's too late and they brought this calamity upon themselves. For a group of people who have a reputation of being so smart, they can be incredibly stupid. The country as a Jewish state is doomed unless they have the will to do exactly what the Nazis did to the Arabs.

fuzzywzhe| 9.5.09 @ 11:49PM

Oh, and I guess I should comment on this:

"Take a look at a map of the proposed "Palestinian" territories that would become a "State of Palestine". You'll notice that they are in three separate, unconnected areas. You'll also notice that these three unconnected areas surround Israel. "

This is the map you're talking about:

http://mondediplo.com/maps/campdavid2000

Now, you said that Israel is surrounded by Palestinians. If you look at the map, which you've probably never seen, you'll see that the proposed state of Palestine:

* Is entirely surrounded by Israeli land.
* Is cut up into 4 pieces, in 3 cases, entirely without any reason
* Has no Jewish only settlements removed.
* Is smaller than the territory that is either controlled by the Palestinians or what was controlled in 2000 when that offer was made.

I don't know why you think that proposed state would surround Israel, especially since it's Israel that surrounds the proposed state of Israel.

And that's the "generous offer" that Arafat turned down. I don't see it as being all that generous, but that's why our media says. The same media that said WMDs were in Iraq in 2001 and the Housing Bubble didn't exist in 2005, and that the Dot.Com Bubble didn't exist in 1999.

You never saw that map in the US press did you? Our media is a joke and not a very funny one.

But I'm tired of talking about this, as I've said, the course is set, and it doesn't matter how hysterical you get or how much you believe Jewish people are just innocent victims or what you think the history is. It doesn't matter if you ignore the British Census, and pretend nobody lived there and it was just a desert the Jews made bloom. It doesn't matter if you think the Muslims are a bunch of terrorists, and that their only grievance is that they hate Jewish people.

The state is on a collision course with either genocide of the Arab population and this will include both Christians and Muslims, or it's going to lose it's Jewish majority. 50 years maximum is what it has left, and that's if the United States continues to pay for everything.

And IF the Israelis use the so-called "Sampson Option" that is going to get every Jewish person on the planet killed. If the Zionist leadership is that insane, I think it's proof they are no friends of the Jewish community. Jewish people need to start speaking up and out against the state of Israel or I fear that as easily as it is to manipulate this nation of idiots to support Israel, it will be just as easy to manipulate them into hatred for Jews, especially if a nuclear weapon goes off in the Middle East, and disrupts the world's oil supply.

Israel needs to wind down it's racism, and become an inclusive representative democracy. When it does that, all the surrounding Arab states will be forced to it in kind. The first thing they need to do though, is adopt a constitution, and stop declaring that it's a Jewish state. But they can't see this, and heck, even you can't.

Solo| 9.6.09 @ 12:17PM

Fuzzywzhe Wrote:

" This is the map you're talking about:

http://mondediplo.com/maps/campdavid2000

Now, you said that Israel is surrounded by Palestinians. If you look at the map, which you've probably never seen, you'll see that the proposed state of Palestine:

I don't know why you think that proposed state would surround Israel, especially since it's Israel that surrounds the proposed state of Israel. "

Yes...I've seen that map. Of note, that map is 9 years old. But, you will notice that it is exactly as I described.
The eastern excursions of Israeli territory through "Palestine" is to have access to the only reliable water source. Since this time, the Gaza has been added to the "Palestinian" wish list, as well.

Look...I'm not indifferent to the plight of the down-trodden Syrians, Jordanians, etc. that make up the so-called "Palestinian people".
The responsibility for their plight lies with the Arab nations- Not Israel!

Are you even aware that the elder King Hussien of Jordon opened up his artillery on the Jordanian refugees trying to flee "Palestine"? He killed over 10,000 of them--men women and children--in order to drive them back towards Israel. The Egyptians and the Syrians similarly refuse to offer sanctuary to their own people!

Why is that , do you suppose?

The answer is that the Arab countries wish to use those people as fodder and propaganda tools in order to apply a relentless pressure towards Israel's destruction.

It's just as you described: If Israel does nothing, it spells her end. If Israel defends herself, it spells her end! Neat how that works out, huh?

No you're right....I, too, tire of trying to point out the obvious to those who refuse to see. But...of one thing you can be certain:

When the Muslims learn to love their children more than the hate the Israelis, then (and only then) peace will come.

In the meantime, you and those of like mind, could better serve the interests of peace and justice by holding the Arab states responsible for their own atrocities. Instead of holding them harmless and above criticism so that you can reserve your outrage for "THE JOOOOOS".

You're just playing the part of useful idiots for the Muslim fascists.

Abu Bakr| 9.6.09 @ 1:01PM

@Eigthman: Wow, you really hate arabs. You pour upon all of them the same bile you accuse anti-semites of pouring on the Jews.

But, that's okay. All Arabs are dirty, ignorant, backward savages, and they don't bear the same victimhood status some groups having been whining about for the last 3,000 years and, so, can be trashed with impunity.

Abu Bakr| 9.6.09 @ 1:07PM

Solo wrote: "If you look at the map, which you've probably never seen, you'll see that the proposed state of Palestine:

Which is precisely why the rest of the world recognizes that after its end in South Africa, Israel remains the only state in the world with apartheid as its official state policy.

fuzzywzhe| 9.6.09 @ 1:13PM

"Yes...I've seen that map. Of note, that map is 9 years old. But, you will notice that it is exactly as I described."

It is not as you described. You said, and I quote:

> Take a look at a map of the proposed
> "Palestinian" territories that would become
> a "State of Palestine". You'll notice that
> they are in three separate, unconnected
> areas. You'll also notice that these three
> unconnected areas surround Israel.

The proposed state of Palestine did not surround Israel, rather Israel completely surrounded the proposed state of Palestine. In the west bank, the country was unnecessarily divided up into 3 pieces for no other reason than to make absolutely certain that Arafat wouldn't accept the offer.

Or did you misspeak? I will accept that as a possibility. If you are saying that the proposed state of Palestine surrounded Israel, it's a complete lie, and since you at least agree that is the map it's either a mistake or a lie. Which is it?

You further claim

"The responsibility for their [what is known today as the Palestinians] plight lies with the Arab nations- Not Israel! "

Why?

The Arabs didn't remove them from their land, the Zionists did. Zionists are entirely responsible for it and are alone responsible for it. It was Zionists that demanded partition, what really was segregation, not the majority Arab population of what was then the British Mandate of Palestine.

"Are you even aware that the elder King Hussien of Jordon opened up his artillery on the Jordanian refugees trying to flee "Palestine"?"

Are you really saying that if the Arab nations are bad Jewish nation must be good? Is this your spurious reasoning? I won't defend the Arab nations.

Why would you think abysmal treatment of the Palestinians from the Arab world would make me support Israeli's abysmal treatment of the Palestinians? I'm not a simpleton even though you may very call me one. I do not think in black and white false dichotomies nor am I easily confused about the situation like your typical American appears to be. There is nothing mysterious or confusing about this 60 year old war. It's simply about land.

In any case, it's irrelevant anyhow, as I've already pointed out.

The demographic "problem" is clear. The "problem" is that one ethnic group is growing faster than the preferred proper ethnic group - the Jewish group. That's a "problem" in Israel's "Western Style Democracy".

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jun96/shapiroi.htm

Israel's "problem" in their so-called Western Democracy is the same "problem" the KKK has with the blacks of the United States.

http://www.davidduke.com/gener.....ks_23.html

To say Zionism isn't racist at the core, it's just silly. It's ridiculous. If you cannot see the silliness of your position, I am forced to conclude that you do not have the capacity to have honest reasoning about this conflict and if that's the case there's little point arguing with you.

But again, I don't really care to argue the morality, I'm just pointing out the inevitable. If Israel doesn't make peace, and do it soon, it will die. It will certainly die. You are a facilitator in allowing Israel to continue it's self destructive policies. I am not.

Now if you people want to dream of this greater Israel, to pretend the the Palestinians will just magically go away, to dream that maybe Israel can get away with a genocide with Jews around the world being unscathed by that, you're delusional. It's going to have to be one of those choices, and if it's not, it's inclusion of the Palestinians into Israeli society and implementation of UN Resolution 194. If 194 is implemented, the integration of the disparate populations will be implemented in the same disastrous way as Zimbabwe and S. Africa.

If Israel doesn't make peace, it will be annihilated along with a lot of Jewish Israelis.

People like you are preventing reconciliation and making the annihilation inevitable. I'm frequently libellously labeled as an anti-Semite - I'm one of the few people trying to save the Jewish people. Your myopic and stupid thinking is going to get them all killed.

Stop dreaming like a child and grow up. Understand the situation for what it is. Jewish people are claiming the land after 2000 years, you really think the Palestinians are going to give up after just 70? Even if the Jewish birth-rate is increased, even if Israel doesn't go bankrupt, even if the US can afford to fund Israel forever, or finds another partner to keep them on life support, the Palestinians can't go away and they will always demand a homeland - just like the Jews did.

S.L. Toddard| 9.6.09 @ 7:01PM

Israel has only one course of action available vis a vis self-preservation and reacquiring some measure of moral high ground: it must 1) pull back to something resembling its 1967 borders, 2) remove itself from all colonized lands outside its 1967 borders (that includes renouncing control of the Palestinian ghetto and leaving them to self-determination, and 3) expel all Arabs from Israel. Step 3 would require some sort of humanitarian assistance for the emigrants, which perhaps the U.S. could help provide as some sort of grand-finale to the U.S. aid deal. Once Israel has taken these four steps, and stopped receiving aid from the U.S., it should meet any attacks against it with whatever force it deems necessary.

Abu Bakr| 9.6.09 @ 7:50PM

@S.L.Toddard: your above comment makes to much sense. It will never work.

Israel wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Answers1| 9.7.09 @ 11:15PM

Build nuclear power plants, mine oil shale in Montana, open offshore drilling, and collapse the price of oil. That will solve the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the US-Russia contretemps as well.

3432423| 4.1.10 @ 2:19AM

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weddingdress | 7.12.11 @ 5:25AM

Solo wrote: "If you look at the map, which you've probably never seen, you'll see that the proposed state of Palestine:

Which is precisely why the rest of the world recognizes that after its end in South Africa, Isr

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