Car Guy
Volt Sticker Shock
Maybe GM should call its new Wunderwagen the Jolt.
We live in incoherent times, but maybe someone can explain it to me: How does a $40,000 “economy” car make economic sense?
The $40k is the price GM will reportedly charge for its all-electric Volt sedan — due out in late 2010 as a 2011 model. Unlike current hybrids, which mostly get going on their internal combustion engines — with their battery packs and electric motors providing a supplemental boost — the Volt will be propelled entirely by electric motors and batteries. The small onboard gasoline-burning engine is only there to provide the power to charge the batteries. It is basically a generator — and is not connected to the drive wheels at all.
The Volt is thus touted by GM as being capable of returning as much as 230 miles per gallon, since it is for all intents and purposes a fully electric car that carries its recharger with it. (The Volt can also be plugged into regular 110 volt household outlets.)
But, $40,000? That is almost exactly what you’d pay for a new BMW 335i ($40,300) and not too far off the asking price of a new Mercedes-Benz E-Class ($48,050). These are fine cars, but not exactly marketed to people who are concerned about their pocketbooks.
Forty Thousand Dollars. That is a lot of coin. Even with a government subsidy (on top of the subsidy GM has built into the car’s price) expected to be as much as $7,500 (thank you, fellow taxpayer), the potential Volt buyer is looking at a bottom line price that is right there in the entry-luxury range — and roughly three times the cost of a new econobox.
Does it compute? Well, let’s see… .
For the sake of discussion, we’ll take GM’s 230 mpg claim at face value. This figure is about four times the published mileage of the 2010 Toyota Prius (50 mpg, average). But the Prius costs just over half as much ($22k). So, the Volt buyer would have to “work off” the approximate $18,000 difference ($12,000 or so, if you subtract the proposed $7,500 government subsidy).
Twelve grand buys one helluva lot of gas — even at $3 per gallon. Four thousand gallons, to be precise. If whatever you are driving now gets an average of 25 mpg (half what the Prius gets) that 4,000 gallons would keep you going for 160,000 miles.
That is a long time to wait to break even… .
Now let’s alter the scenario a bit and use as our “demo vehicle” a new Nissan Versa 1.6 — which you can buy for less than ten grand, brand spankin’ new. It may only get 29 mpg (average, city plus highway). But the difference in up front costs between it and the new Volt Wunderwagen is a forbidding $30,000 (okay, $23k if you subtract the $7,500 subsidy).
How much gas can you buy with twenty-three thousand dollars at $3 per? Six thousand, nine hundred gallons, chief. Holy Opec! That’s enough for 200,000-plus miles of motoring before you’d hit the “break even” point.
How many people even keep their cars for 200,000 miles? (Or 160,000 for that matter?)
Has anyone done the math? I assumed there were, you know, engineers (math guys) working at GM.
But maybe not.
Even leaving aside the operating costs, how many people who are really concerned about gas mileage (that is, about the expense of a car) are in a position (or desire) to spend $40,000 on a vehicle? By definition, if you are spending that kind of money on a car, you either don’t care much about gas mileage — or don’t really have to care much about it.
About the Author
Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: The Cars You Love to Hate (Motor Books International) and a new book, Road Hogs.
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David| 8.17.09 @ 8:07AM
How much is the ele going to cost to recharge the batteries? I think I read that the Volt will use 24KW per mile. If thats correct, the cost of ele is astronomical to run the Volt. Anyone got better information? David
2Anglico| 8.17.09 @ 9:17AM
If you want to pay $40k for a "prototype" go ahead. But please spare us the "saving money on gas" baloney. See paragraph 8, above. I will bet real dollars 50-75% of these "Volts" are in the landfill PRIOR to 160,000 miles.
Robert S. Rosencrans| 8.17.09 @ 9:39AM
The vehicle looks like a high tech overpriced piece of junk to me, and those are it's good points. You'd be better off buying a used high MPG clunker for $5,000, driving it for two years and then selling it for $2500. Call it the hoopde lifestyle. It will also help prepare you for cap and trade which will degenerate GDP 2 to 3 trillion a year. You'll need less to have more. Of course, it will all be an illusion. You'll really have nothing because with cap and trade the economy will tank beyond belief. At that point you'll be lucky to have a hoopde or gas to drive the hoopde around. We'll call it Hoopde America.
Bruce| 8.17.09 @ 9:53AM
I fully agree.
The other point to consider is if traditional fuel isn't consumed, then fuel taxes to maintain the roadways aren't collected, and this shortfall will have to come from somewhere else.
Greg| 8.17.09 @ 9:59AM
This article, like all other stories out there, is just another example of how we simpletons are just not falling in line like we should. I can't believe some of you would not what a Volt?!?!? A car that runs completely on electricity? Who wouldn't want that? Our dear leader knows what is best for us...we should all listen!
JPUSC72| 8.17.09 @ 10:35AM
For the money that is stated in the article and used for gas, the article states that you would have to get 200,000 miles to break even. The article did not include the cost of new batteries for the volt as I am sure the batteries would probably need to be replaced several times. This is a loser from the get go particularly when the Nissan leaf will get 100 miles per charge. The Nissan should be on sale in 2010. I think my info on the Nissan is correct but not sure. Some other poster may want to confirm.
Pecos Pete| 8.17.09 @ 10:38AM
Me thinks Atlas is shrugging.....
founderguy| 8.17.09 @ 10:42AM
Let's not forget to add in the annual personal property tax assessed on vehicles (i.e. South Carolina). It's based on blue book value, so a $40K vehicle will set you back about $700 bucks the first year of ownership.
jerryofva| 8.17.09 @ 10:48AM
JP:
I guarenttee you the Leaf will not get you a 100 miles between charges especially once the temperature drops below 50 degrees. The all-electric Leaf is extention cord only. It is an urban commuter that you can't go anywhere with. The Volt may be expensive; it may be an inefficient use of resources but you can drive it wherever and whenever you want to.
Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 8.17.09 @ 10:53AM
The sales tax in Maryland is 6% meaning on VOLT the sales tax is $2400. I can get you a used Prizm or Corrola off of Craigslist for that with AC and AUTO that can get 29/36 MPG. Drive it for two years and sell it for $2,000. I urge you to live the Communist lifestyle with me and avoid the environmental dictatorship. My dictatorship will save you some coin in the long run.
Ray| 8.17.09 @ 11:26AM
I've always be amused by the claims that electric cars reduce pollution. Have the econuts forgotten that electric cars, due to the electric motors wiring, transformers, and regulators needed to transform electric power into motive power, all produce ozone, classified as a prime pollutant by government?
Joe B| 8.17.09 @ 11:36AM
Folks might pay $10K for a Munchkin Mobile but when they fork out $40 K they want performance. The Volt is worse than an Edsel. Look for it in government motor pools, not your neighbors driveway.
Paul from SA| 8.17.09 @ 11:41AM
Wow, excellent comments, everyone.
Eric, I always enjoy your articles. The next time how about a comprehensive analysis and include all aspects, including re-sale value, insurance, safety, tax-payer advertising, battery recharge, replacement, installation and disposal costs, performance, etc.
I'm an engineer and am really interested in the battery technology.
I understand GM and Chrylser are now exempt from paying corporate income taxes.
Barack Edsel Obama | 8.17.09 @ 12:44PM
These are nothing but liberal status symbols. And I wonder, what becomes of the batteries when they wear out? Are they filled with environmentally friendly material? And if not, how big of a carbon footprint does it take to recycle them? Seems like a lot of wasted resources to make the Ed Begley Jrs of the world satisfied.
two cents per mile | 8.17.09 @ 1:15PM
I absolutely agree with you. Electric cars are an amazing technology- they are efficient, clean, safe. They have the ability to create jobs and industry, decrease our national debt, and help reduce carbon emissions in the process. But none of those benefits are going to be reaped if no one can afford electric cars. One major problem is the car’s batteries. GM built a 100% electric car in 1996 called the GM EV-1, which ran on NiMH batteries. The oil companies saw the electric car as a huge threat, and in 2001 GM (many board members heavily invested in oil companies) sold the NiMH patent to Chevron, then recalled all the EV-1s and crushed them in the desert. Now, over a decade later, they are building a worse car, with batteries twice as expensive. For more information on the history of electric cars, and introductory information about electric cars in general, and their benefits, I suggest the book “Two Cents Per Mile” by Nevres Cefo, or check out the website http://www.twocentspermile.com
jerryofva| 8.17.09 @ 2:12PM
2 cents:
The EV1 was merely another failed electric powered experiment. Batteries are only good in warm weather. If it's too hot or too cold range becomes highly restricted. Electrically powered vehicles are only good for short trips. It never ceases to amaze me how conspiracy theorists always believe that the "oil companies" killed the electric car. The laws of physics killed the electric car.
Electric cars are a compromise by the Obama adminstration because they really want to cram the population into urban areas where they can take public transportation to work but still allow people to go to grocery shopping and run errands on the weekends.
Electric cars fail because you can't take them anywhere. They are at best a second car.
Bill| 8.17.09 @ 3:44PM
I believe the government mandated cafe standard is behind the Volt , it is designed to make the GM fleet meet these standards
Ned| 8.17.09 @ 3:51PM
Just took a 400 mile road trip Saturday - the only cars I saw abandoned on the side of the road (I-5) were new looking Chevies, and a couple of Prius... one of which had a pair of rather tweedy looking fellows staring at it with a puzzled look... no, I didn't stop, or even slow...
psionic| 8.17.09 @ 4:12PM
Has GM considered how much of a drain on the electric grid there will be when everyone plugs in their Volt at night? The same enviro-wackos who will drive a volt are the ones who shun normal lightbulbs because they waste too much energy. This make no more sense than Cap and Trade.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 4:30PM
Eric’s cost analysis doesn’t hit everything. As best I can tell from published sources applied to my own situation it just piles on against the Volt.
Government Motors claims an expected $1500 cost savings over a gas unit of similar road mpg performance. No such thing is possible simply because of property taxes and insurance cost over and above say something like the Prius or Honda Insight. The $40,000 class Volt would be taxed at 5.4% where I live for assessed valuation over around $20,000 thus the first year property tax alone would be $1080 and a little less each year over the expected life of the car. The increased insurance cost over said Prius would add another $500 in my estimation. Projected cost savings over something like the Prius is gone and adds to the annual ownership cost of what is already a $40,000 class expense.
Tesla gets about 100,000 miles on a 900 lb Li-ion battery pack rated at 53KW that cost $36,000 and by that time they are measurably diminished. The Tesla goes between 220-240 miles a charge. Government Motors hopes to get 150,000 miles out of a 400 lb set of same rated at 16KW that cost $16,000 by controlling the discharge depth on the full electric use to prevent what happens with the Tesla full time deep cycle discharges. In other words Government motors is putting extra battery capability in the Volt to keep it from falling below a 30% reserve capability and charging for the extra life span up front. You end up with a nominal 40 mile range as a result vs. the Tesla’s 200+.
The 1.4L E85 engine does not charge the battery back to full charge but merely maintains it at 30% reserve. As I understand it the engine produces about half the KW rating of the electric motors which means that it is possible but highly unlikely that you could put more demand on the battery reserve than the E85 engine can replace. I wouldn’t want to climb Pike’s Peak up and down or drive long distances with this set up in a mountainous area.
The 230 mpg figure is completely bogus and trying to explain how they got that figure just makes that point as far as real world driving is concerned. If the EPA gives this thing some kind of magic MPG rating there are going to be a lot of unhappy customers when they don’t get those magic triple digit numbers. The 6 gallon E85 tank and a full charge might get you 300-340 miles under ideal conditions which translates to about the same mpg the Prius gets on the road. The less you drive it the better its mileage gets so to speak. I don’t know anyone that buys a high mpg vehicle to just drive around town or short distances back and forth to work.
My average daily miles driven (365 days a year) is about 32 miles. My daily compute to and from work is 22 miles. On average, I’ll burn up about 55% of the Volt’s charge just going to and from work (240 days a year). At the advertised charge rate for 110 volts, it will take 3.5 to 4.4 hours to recharge that amount every single day I drive it. I have no spare 220 volt outlets thus if the Volt requires such to get 220 volts that is not an option for me. If it can take two separate 110 lines then I could reduce this time down to less than two hours. Topping off this charge every single day come rain, snow or what ever is going to become a nuisance for many and impossible for most.
Based on my estimation I could get by on about 8000 miles driven a year completely on the Volt’s batteries. At the nominal KWH cost here that would cost about $80.00 a year. The other 4000 miles would be at what ever the cost per gallon the Volt actually delivered at its run on generator mpg is. The cost saving for me using current gas cost would be about $545 a year in fuel cost. Over the life of the Volt’s first $16,000 battery pack that equal about $6800 at today’s gas cost. That $9,000 not recoverable is not trivial pursuit for me.
All total after subtracting the $7500 tax credit which will come back to me in the form of some fractional tax increase and adding in the extra $1500 a year expense of owning a $40,000 class vehicle and having to insure same, the Volt will make the Prius look like a real bargain by comparison and the Honda Insight a steal. The Prius won’t pay for itself either compared to the non hybrid car I plan to buy in the near future.
Somewhere between the purchase time and when this car nears the battery pack life time, the resell value on it (just like hybrids) will drop to zero because no one is going to put $16,000 into a ten year old or older vehicle that cost $32-40,000 new. Nothing is going to make the extra $18,000 cost of the Volt over the Prius come down to Wal_Mart for the Masses prices. $10.00 a gallon gas does not change this either first because at that price most of the people that could not afford the Volt in the first place would not be able to afford the gas even in the Volt.
The problem with all EV types now is that the more you drive them the worse their economics get not better. My 1989 with 211,000 miles averages 31 around town and up to 41 on the road. Its replacement will cost about $3000 less than the Prius and add about 10% plus to those mpg numbers. The math does not work and Government Motors already knows this given their production schedule for the Volt. The only people who are going to buy or lease this vehicle are those that don’t need it and have more money than brains. Nothing wrong with having more money than brains but no worldly problems are going to be solved here either.
Government Motors does seem to recognize that given their estimates of annual production.
I predict the first time someone pulls away from home with the Volt still attached will make headlines and some lawyer rich(er). I predict the first time a rarely used Volt’s E85 engine fails to start and run after not being used for weeks, months will make headlines and some lawyer rich(er). I predict the first time the Volt’s rarely used E85 engine fails to run properly due to the fuel becoming useable will make headlines and some lawyer rich(er). GM has stated they have a solution to fuel decomposition from long periods of setting in the tank but I put as much faith in that statement as their 230 mpg claim. I’ve helped tear out a fuel system hosed up by decomposed fuel sitting in the tank for months on end that had the same solution that Government Motors says it has. Some lawyer(s) are going to love the Volt clients.
jr| 8.17.09 @ 4:57PM
Start by asking, who would buy a Chevrolet or Chrysler? And wouldn't it be a picture, Hollywood's creatures riding in Chevrolets? They will still be driving Beemers, Lamborghinis, Mercedes, Rolls, and the like. Maybe Obama will get his dog and Evolt.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 5:04PM
Bill, makes a valid point about the Volt being a baby CAFE but what happens to fleet averages after the first year's production and they aren't selling? Would seemed to have made better marketing sense to bring this gold plated CAFE out under the Cadillac brand but we already know Cadillac buyers won’t buy this.
Michael L. Hauschild| 8.17.09 @ 5:31PM
I just made a trip with my 1977 Lincoln Continental with the 460 cubic inch engine. I got eight hundred and thirty eight miles to the gallon. Of course I had it hauled within five miles of my destination on a flatbed truck.
Seriously what I really want is my wind generator to produce DC electricity which will then use electrolysis to separate the hydrogen and oxygen of water my windmill pumps from my yard and a micro compressor also wind powered to liquefy the two to use in a cheaply produced fuel cell which will THEN power my electric vehicle.
Flip| 8.17.09 @ 5:32PM
I have never understood why you would want to take fossil fuels to make electricity for a car?!?! What landfill do you put the old batteries in?!?! If this is where the Government Motor Company is using our hard earned tax dollars…I want my money back!!! I just paid $24,000.00 for a fully loaded VW Jetta TDI and it gets 29/40 city/highway mpg.
Denise Thornton | 8.17.09 @ 5:35PM
We can all drive more fuel efficient cars starting today without spending a dime – it’s a matter of adjusting our driving habits. I learned a ton at an eco-driving workshop at this summer’s Midwest Renewable Energy Fair. Check out the top ten tips at http://digginginthedriftless.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/10-ways-to-cut-gas-costs-and-save-the-planet/
Happy gas savings for all,
Denise Thornton
Mazzuchelli| 8.17.09 @ 5:39PM
I, for one, have been driving GM products all my adult life - happily. My Dad is another. I tend to trade every few years while he hangs onto his for an eternity, e. g., 2001 Yukon, 340,000 miles with no engine repairs and only just lost the transmission after chasing trains up and down the mountain at Winter Park [don't ask]. So, don't worry about GM longevity. I don't hang onto vehicles as long as Dad but I certainly thrash the heck out of them. No failures, folks. But, keep smiling in your imports. Certainly the Germans or Koreans will migrate to wartime production on our behalf without a lot of negotiation and cash buy offs.
Mazzuchelli| 8.17.09 @ 5:45PM
Flip, was that your Jetta I followed to work the other day? What is with the sooty smoke emanating from the exhaust? Ugly spectacle at the least. My Gov't Motors SRX and 'Vette emit no smoke of any texture at any time. Plus, they start in the winter which is a plus when the Canadian breezes blast unimpeded across the Dakotas.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 5:55PM
Mazzuchelli, valid points but two problems.
The last real war we had produced no private vehicles per say from Detroit as the entire production capacity went to war vehicles…..
That 340,000 miles in 8 years on your Yukon (like my friends Tahoe and Z71) would have cost $56,000 at $2.50 a gallon. More money than I’ve got to pay for just gas and my 1989 import with 211,000 cost about $10,000 at the average gas cost over those 20 years. That leaves me enough money to buy a Tahoe and use the most efficient vehicle for the purpose. If GM could build a car as good as my 1989 import and sell it for a price the average American could afford they wouldn’t be where they are today…..
M Forgues| 8.17.09 @ 6:09PM
A few observations about how a Volt would be used in Montreal. Think assault on the battery.
Montreal is under 50 F weather at least 6 months of the year, with 3 of these months at temperatures well below freezing. A warm winter day in Montreal is 20-25 F. Hot is 32 F.
How do we keep the passengers warm? Some kind of gas heater? Don't we need electricity to de-ice the rear window? The night lasts 14 hours in the deep of winter: headlights are powered by electricity, no? Even LEDs consume power.
We routinely carry heavy bags of salt, gravel and sand in the winter to improve traction in the winter. Would that affect mileage?
Has anyone ever watch a car spinning its way out of a snow bank? Tires become so hot they actually melt the snow to form new ice. The wheel turns but we're not going anywhere. Doesn't that define government?
Montreal suffers episodic heat waves between late May and late August, like the one we're having now, our first serious this year. Thank you global cooling! We can always keep the windows open but grandma would rather have her AC.
Montreal is well endowed with outdoors electrical outlets, mainly used to keep cars warm in winter. So, we have plentiful, 'cheap' electricity (C$ .06-07 per KW/h), government owned of course but no plans to add substantial generation or transport in any form.The utility (Hydro-Quebec) has been subsidizing the purchase of new, more energy-efficient fridges and freezers ($ 50 and $25) for many years. We're way 'ahead' of you Americans. We've been nega-watting for a long time and now the future apparently belongs to the wind dreamers and their wonderful machines.
On the other hand, gas is expensive, about C$ 1.05 a LITER (35 oz) right now. It is heavily taxed, in ordr to pay for government services like the nationalized day care centers (pre-school children). I see the day when a government minister or the Premier himself will announce a subsidy for a Volt purchase justifying it with the usual BS (global warming, pollution, oil-dependence) with the added bonus of saving the buyer so much money, compared to the price of gas. Is that irony or stupidity, I can never tell them apart.
Which brings me to a different point, we're not rich. Socialism costs us prosperity, se we buy a lot of very small ass-bangers. Most people with money have goverment jobs, go figure. I don't see many SMART cars around (C$16K to C$23K). A Toyota Yaris is far better and costs much much less. People spending their own money still know value when they see it.
This is not weather-related, but what happens if you carry 4 adults weighing 150 lbs each? Has GM calculated mileage under these conditions?
In the end, I predict very few or no GM Volt at all in Montreal for a long time, unless Leonardo drives one here from LA, stopping for about 300 full charges.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 6:32PM
M Forgues, several hundred miles south of you were I ski in WV I’ve seen sub zero temps often. The route into and out of such places, like Canada involves long grades (8-9% at times) and having the vehicle sit out in sub zero temps for 10-12 hours. A typical trip from what I live to where I ski is about 340 miles each way and climbs over several ranges to get to the slopes. I doubt the Volt could carry four people and gear there as the last leg in is about 90 miles over nothing but up and down mountain roads and eventually ends up about six thousand feet up. You’d have to fill up the tank on the Volt each way and between the lack of power from the E85 engine over long distance grades and the load I’d be surprised if it even approached 40 mpg average and could maintain speed on the grades I have to drive up. It is not easy for my car even but I have over 500 mile range potential and its power does not drop with the temperature. Many have asked this question about EV vehicles in general but so far I’ve not seen any creditable answer. Based on my extensive use of all types of batteries outside in such temps it will matter. To those that live in really cold temps and mountainous terrain this question will require an answer soon enough.
M Forgues| 8.17.09 @ 6:58PM
Thom,
Wonderful! So let's see what stands in the way of the Volt becoming a reality: price, cold, gravity, payload, distance, heating and cooling issues, lighting, lack of A/C outlets, battery replacement cost, electricity cost and, let's not forget, because the gas engine and the entire propulsion system are new designs, along with other specialized sub-systems, only GM approved dealers will service it. There will be no used spared parts for a long time if ever.
As mentionned elsewhere the general population might resent subsidizing a glorified Segway that will used mainly for grocey shopping and very short trips. No one will ever use a Volt as a WORK vehicle. Once public resentment reaches a high enough point, the government might be forced to reduce or phase-out the subsidy, thereby boosting the sales of every other car but the Volt.
Tom Bruner| 8.17.09 @ 7:03PM
I don't think it's that green either. The electricity coming through the outlet had to be generated somewhere, most likely somewhere burning coal or natural gas. It's a polluter by proxy.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 8:49PM
M Forgues, I think there is a mountain of evidence to support that the Volt will not be anything but a typical GM test bed for their development efforts paid for on the back of the taxpayers but Volt supporters see brilliance where I see a $22,000 Prius with a $16,000 battery pack instead of the Prius $2000-3000 battery pack and a couple thousand on top of that for the advanced integration software and interfaces to control everything. Volt (EV supporters in general) counter the up front cost issues with statements about economic scale bringing down the cost and when I point out the first $20,000 in the car’s price is mature technology has nothing at all to do with that which gives it the $40,000 price they then resort to the usual energy independence or eco arguments which then don’t work out because we won’t be able to produce enough of any of these at any price within the time it would take to replace 230,000 ICE vehicles over the next twenty years to matter. We’ve got 100 of millions of Li_ion batteries in use in laptops and alike and they aren’t going to get cheap because of all the cars that will now need them in mass. My 4800 Mah/73W Li_ion laptop batteries cost a nominal $100 each and weight 1 lb. Says right on them to not store them below 32 degrees (and then throw a charge at them). If research in the labs is successful in doubling the capacity of Li_ion at a comparable price then something like the Volt could lose half the current battery cost or double the battery range. Either way it is still well above mass market prices and those other battery drain problems are still there. I think Honda, Toyota and Ford have the right mix at this point but they don’t have all the taxpayer paid for glitz Government Motors has going for it now. Ultimately the market will speak just like it did with the EV-1s.
Ray| 8.17.09 @ 9:03PM
Our Tax dollars at work. Thanks President Obama for nationalizing a once great American company. You neo-marxist twit.
Bill| 8.17.09 @ 9:11PM
I wish this article would have taken it to the next level of the argument: How green is it?
I don't really know the specifics, but a few articles I've read in the past had gone into detail regarding the environmental impact of an electric car and how it is more damaging (in regards to emissions) due to the electricity being generated from fossil fuel plants that are less efficient than modern day internal combustion engines.
Until the infrastructure of our nation's power grid is changed (more nuclear, wind or solar energy) electric cars are a step backwards environmentally. The end user thinks they are having a smaller "carbon footprint" when in reality it's larger. They just don't see it.
pollutersru| 8.17.09 @ 9:18PM
I make a lot of money and would rather burn it on eco friendly products. I'll be a lot of you out there trash talking the volt are fat. What would Jesus do, Volt or Suburban.
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 9:18PM
Bill, I believe part of that generation offset cost is offset by the efficiency of the electric drive, ie the Tesla gets about 190 mpg rating out of 53KW battery pack due to it only requiring about 1.3 gallon eqvil of fuel to produce the energy it needs to store. Something like that. Check out Tesla and see how they rate the "well to hub" conversions. I'm not completely sure on all the smoke and mirror stuff ......
Thom| 8.17.09 @ 9:20PM
pollutersru said, "What would Jesus do, Volt or Suburban." Of course he would choose an ass..... they are virtually free to own.
jerryofva| 8.17.09 @ 10:24PM
pollutersru
What would Jesus drive? Well before he went on his mission he was a carpenter so he would probably drive a Dodge Ram with a Cummins or a Hemi. He would need the truck to carry his tools, materials and maybe an apprentice or two.
The Suburban would certainly be useful once he began his mission. Lots of room for the 12 and other supplies he might need to take with him
He wouldn't have any use for a Volt. It couldn't serve as a work vehicle and he would only have room for Peter, James and John.
Pingback| 8.17.09 @ 10:27PM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - City-Dat links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 8.17.09 @ 10:29PM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - City-Dat links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 8.17.09 @ 10:37PM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - City-Dat links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
dizzydogma| 8.17.09 @ 10:42PM
The Volt is already a tremendous success. Understand, the Volt was never intended to make money from sales. It was intended from the beginning to attract government bailout money. Government mandates and incentives will insure some sales, but nobody spending their own money will spend $4ok for a car with a 40 mile range between charges.
Phillip| 8.17.09 @ 10:52PM
The Tesla roadster gets 225 to 250 miles per charge and has a maximum speed of 125 mph. Because of the range per charge the battery pack won't be depleted so far that it would take ridiculously long to charge. The Volt on the other hand is an expensive joke and farce. Like another commenter said GM had a better car but scrapped it, pulled a TURD out of their A$$ and called it the Volt. Sorry Detroit and OSAMA OBAMAHUSSEIN BIN LADEN I'll continue to drive my 1971 F-100 pickup for years and hopefully restore it to better than new condition with better fuel economy. I estimate that it would cost be about $ 25,000 to restore it and add power steering and air conditioning. So Obama and GM can go " " each other for all I care.
flyoverland| 8.17.09 @ 10:55PM
My daughter can't remember to charge her cellphone. You want her to remember to charge her car, too? Sure.
jordan 6 rings | 8.17.09 @ 11:30PM
This is a great piece. Very thought provoking. I like the sort of ending that leaves it opn to personal input. Makes it work for just about everyone I think. Nicely done! I’ll subscribe.
Pingback| 8.17.09 @ 11:44PM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - Page 2 - links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 8.18.09 @ 12:19AM
volt sticker shock - YardLimits.com links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Stymie| 8.18.09 @ 12:19AM
I think it's pretty clear the White House wants GM to fail.
At these prices, you might as well go all out and buy a Tesla Roadster. At least you'll have less depreciation.
Pingback| 8.18.09 @ 12:24AM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - Page 4 - links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Dave Lincoln| 8.18.09 @ 5:45AM
jerryofva, I beg to differ (but really liked your comment):
In order to carry at least 11 disciples (I would have pretended to lose Judas A. at the Home Depot) he would have had to drive a Chartruese MicroBus*
*Come on, people, don't tell me you don't remember about "... and eleven long-haired friends of Jesus in a chartruese micro-bus... moan back? "
(kids these days, don't know jack about good music!!)
Dave Lincoln| 8.18.09 @ 5:57AM
OK, here's the secret about the Volt, Eric, as a guy named Bill brought up but didn't elaborate on.
One word: CAFE
Officially (which means zilch), this POS gets 230 mpg. That's the only number that matters to GM. Yes, the number is meaningless, as it takes more than 1 G of gas to go 230 miles; it needs a certain amount of electrical energy. There should be a combo energy rating, which could be made to based on cost (best really for the consumer), or based on BS CO2 (natural gas of the atmosphere) output for the Gidiots (green idiots), or maybe just an equivalent energy at the source rating (for the engineers among us).
Anyhoo, do the algebra. If GM knows they can make the most money off of, say, a 16 mpg medium duty very popular truck, and say they need to have a 30 mpg average by a certain year, we get:
(230 + 16x) / x = 30
just the formula for an average, where x is the number of popular 15 mpg pick-ups they can sell for each Volt.
I get 16 trucks and some change, or say, 15 trucks and a really nasty CO2-belching earth-mover.
So, if they can do some kind of fleet sale to (poor suckers) a Federal Gov't agency with no say in the matter, they can get their allotment of real vehicles up to a good number and still be the greenest people on God's green earth.
Unintended consequences of the CAFE law? No!! Shocking, just shocking!! Who knew?
Dave Lincoln| 8.18.09 @ 6:03AM
OK, I'm officially losing it.
S/B (230 + 16x) / (x + 1) = 30
Only 14 trucks, better get a waiver on CAFE till we can sell just one all electric car rated at infinity mpg. Call it the Infinity - oh wait, that name's taken by a real car company.
TomM| 8.18.09 @ 9:05AM
Unfortunately, most of the other eco-friendly cars are only a step above a Gremlin but a step behind the Pacer in the looks department. The Prius is uglier than a Gremlin.
raz0r| 8.18.09 @ 9:49AM
I hope all the leftie elitists jump on board. Buy a whole fleet of them. Same for the environut crowd. Price of gas will come down and I'll be able to fill up my Titan for less than $40.
Pingback| 8.18.09 @ 10:26AM
Re-Volting | Worth Reading links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
F GARRICK| 8.18.09 @ 11:00AM
What does not seem to be mentioned is that according to GM, for 100 miles you use 25 kilowatt hours. At an average US rate of $.12 per kilowatt hour, that equates to $ 3.00 per 100 miles. At our current gas price, that equates to and equivalent cost basis of 77.67 miles per gallon. Not bad if you only want to travel 40 miles or less.
Pingback| 8.18.09 @ 12:45PM
GM's new Volt; $40,000 - sticker shock! - Politics and Other Controversies - Page 6 - links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
James| 8.18.09 @ 1:19PM
I can only explain this article by assuming that the author is deeply into personal proctology. Who ever suggested that the Volt is supposed to be an economy car? It's not: it's a performance car, only the performance factor is fuel economy, not speed.
Now some of you may think an interest in this performance is silly, but I submit that it's no sillier than buying say a Corvette that can do 200 mph to drive on roads where the speed limits are around 70.
If you don't want the Volt's fuel economy at the asking price, there's a simple solution: don't buy one.
jerryofva| 8.18.09 @ 1:42PM
James:
The Volt even fails to make sense even by your criteria. A luxury priced car has to deliver actual luxury. If GM wanted to build car to learn the technology and give it a boost then they should have built it as a Cadillac and not a Chevy. Chevy buyers don't pay $40K for while those who can afford it won't by a downscale Chevy.
Pingback| 8.18.09 @ 5:06PM
HoodaThunk?: Chevy Volt – a great idea but is it too expensive to make it? links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
James| 8.18.09 @ 5:46PM
Re " A luxury priced car has to deliver actual luxury."
Why? Take the Corvette again: how much luxury are you getting for a MSRP that runs between $53K and $104K? As far as I can tell, only the luxury of being able to go fast enough to collect lots of speeding tickets. So how's buying a Corvette because it can go lots faster than you can legally drive it any different from buying a Volt because sometimes you can drive it without gas and see really high mpg numbers?
Maybe lots of people will want to buy the Volt at the current price, in which case it'll be a success. Maybe they won't, so it'll be a failure. Either way, the market will decide.
cyberbo| 8.18.09 @ 9:42PM
It seems like a lot of people think that Govt Motors needs to make money on this.
They're Government Motors, Profits don't matter!
Johnny Knuckles| 8.18.09 @ 11:27PM
In upscale San Diego neighborhoods most households have two cars: one hybrid and one useful vehicle...usually a bigger SUV. The hybrids are left in the driveway more often than the SUVs.
Denver Todd| 8.19.09 @ 9:09AM
In order to eke out the slightest bit of energy savings, manufacturers have had to pack machines with high tech components. We see this with energy-saving front load washers, and non-agitator top load washers. So, now consumers are washing their clothes with a machine that is running with the equivalent of Windows Vista, and not getting the durability they paid for.
It is the same with the Volt, exchanging relibable older technology with the highest new technology, with all the reliability of your home computer, that is only as good as the warranty it came with. This leads me to the point I am trying to make: the Volt is worthless after its warranty runs out, and only a fool would buy one that way.
James| 8.19.09 @ 1:48PM
"It is the same with the Volt, exchanging relibable older technology..."
Yeah? Like the reliable older technology that went into the last American car I owned, the Chevy Vega?
"...with all the reliability of your home computer..."
My home computer's not reliable? I've only had the current one (Lenovo T61) for a year or so, but it has worked 100% of the time, as did the Dell notebook I had before that. Of course I run Linux...
jerryofva| 8.19.09 @ 3:36PM
James:
You are obviously not a car guy as your reference to owning a Vega would indicate. The Vette is a sports car that is quite luxurious. The Volt is is $10K aveo with a $30K battery. GM could have built the Volt as a Caddy with lots of luxury features like the Tesla sedan. There are a lot of rich eco-nuts who would jump at that kind of car without the need for a taxpayer subsidy.
John George| 8.19.09 @ 6:49PM
I'd buy a GM Volt for the same reason that you guys voted for Cheney/Bush; because God told me to.
Pingback| 8.20.09 @ 9:33AM
The Daily Bayonet » Global Warming Hoax Weekly Round-Up, Aug. 21st 2009 links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
James| 8.20.09 @ 1:40PM
Re "You are obviously not a car guy as your reference to owning a Vega would indicate. The Vette is a sports car that is quite luxurious."
I have to disagree, both about not being a car guy, and about the Corvette being a sports car. The Vega was the product of one of the periods in my life when I was a really poor car guy. And the Corvette has too much engine to be a sports car, like for instance the Mazda Miata. It's a muscle car.
jerryofva| 8.20.09 @ 3:08PM
James:
You are definitely not a car guy. The Miata (and the BMW Z-3/4 are Roadsters which are a kind of sports car.
The Corvette, Porsche, Viper, Ferrari and Lamborghini are a different kind of sports car.
A muscle car is a high powered sedan or coup based car with a big engine and a high performance suspension.
Doug Korthof | 8.22.09 @ 5:24PM
Auto makers reluctantly agree that plug-in Electric cars (EVs) are needed to lower oil dependence and reduce climate change.
The big problem, they claim, is the battery: expensive and short-lasting Lithium is not yet practical for EVs.
The Toyota RAV4-EV, last sold in Nov., 2002, uses production large-format Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries, and is still running today on the same battery packs. All successful EVs with over 100 miles range and lasting longer than 100,000 miles used the cheaper, proven NiMH.
Up until this month, the NiMH patent licensing rights were controlled by Chevron's unit COBASYS, and NiMH was not allowed for plug-in cars. Chevron has sold control of NiMH, and now it's time to resume production of full-sized EVs, such as the RAV4-EV, EV1 and HondaEV.
There are hundreds of NiMH plug-in EVs running today, treasured by the few Americans allowed to buy them; most are powered by rooftop solar systems.
It auto companies were serious, they would release proven NiMH EVs. All the metals in the batteries can be recycled after they wear out, perhaps after 200,000 miles. Nickel is non-toxic, relatively abundant, mostly used in monel propeller shafts, stainless steel, and surgical instruments.
While research is fine, we need a resumption of production of for-sale EVs, such as the RAV4-EV, using proven NiMH batteries.
The VOLT is a hoax, designed to fail, using the wrong batteries. GM is killing the EV all over again, just as they released the EV1 with bad batteries. How transparent; who is expected to believe lying GM??
toronto trucks | 8.31.09 @ 2:17AM
Very great post. thanks :)
Mike| 9.7.09 @ 12:52AM
I have a question. After we supposedly save the earth by eliminating the use of gasoline to propel our autos and trucks, where is the government going to recoup all that losed tax money due to less gasoline sales?
Pingback| 9.9.09 @ 12:31AM
Tips to conserve energy in industries - The Blog Planet links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
blueline99| 11.25.09 @ 4:23PM
Everyone here is so short-sighted... it's based on $3/gallon... I live in California where $3/gallon for Premium is a bargain... I usually pay $3.20 but remember vividly paying $4.70 a gallon 15 months ago.
We do not control the price of gas. We are at the whim of the oil companies who charge whatever they like.
It would not surprise me to see gas prices at $8/gallon in 10 years. Redo your math then... how about $12/gallon.
As a nation we need to reduce the amount of oil we consume. Whatever technology we find to do this, I don't care. We need to move the technology forward.
I won't be buying a Volt, the cost is too high right now to make sense, but I hope it's a success. I hope there are others like it that are cheaper and better. I hope one day soon half the cars in the US are electric.
To dismiss the volt for the reasons given are ignrorant, short-sided and agenda filled.
This is not an environmental issue. It's an issue of national security.
Pingback| 2.3.10 @ 5:33PM
MAV Micro Air Vehicle Propulsion Discussion links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
oldtexgal| 7.30.10 @ 2:33PM
These same morons, who stiffed GM bond holders, bailed out the unions, and have mandated the production of these ridiculous venhicles, are the ones who can be expected to run health care, run the financial system, control energy production and consumption... yep, nitwits, incompetents, pols and bureaucrats! STORM THE RAMPARTS! GET TO THE POLLS IN NOVEMBER! It's only the first step, in a long struggle to wrest power from the Progressives... The current Administration has done more real, tangible, damage to this country than all of our international enemies combined.