The American Spectator

Jason| 12.12.08 @ 7:18AM

For liberals: Obama has outlined an intentionally vague health care agenda. His health care czar, Tom Daschle wants to push a bare-bones health care bill through congress as soon as possible after Obama is elected. A Federal Health Board would be charged with establishing the system's framework and filling in most of the details. This independent board would be insulated from political pressure. Does this in any way strike you as undemocratic?

Melvin| 12.12.08 @ 7:26AM

Trust government with our health care? The same government that gave us the Savings & Loan banking scandal, the same government who gave us Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac melt down, the same government that is rife with corruption, greed, and wanton debauchery.
Oh, here's a good one, we could have Hotrod Corruptovich of Illinois be Tommy Boy's right hand man.
The sad fact is, as a nation better allocate more public land for mass graves because if government is in charge of our health care we are going to need them.

Alice Moore| 12.12.08 @ 7:38AM

With massive unemployment and less personal income overall; where will the money come from to fund this?

Pecos Pete| 12.12.08 @ 7:59AM

Does this sound like Amtrak and the Post Office? Or maybe CAFE standards?

Will smokers be included in pre-condition approval?

Daphne| 12.12.08 @ 8:46AM

Melvin.

I have to say I agree with you 100% trust no government, try your best to take charge of the most valuable gift you have and that is life.

Crooked politicans only do things to gain massive amounts of money for themselves and their fat cat friends. I was sold on the idea, of the health care plan, and I had to back track, and said yes if these were honest people, who cared about the suffering of others.

I forgot these were crooked politicans, and even if Obama means well, what happens further down the road, when another crook gets into office, what then?.
You think you were covered but your money was siphoned off else where.

As long as crooks can hold seat in high powered places in government, there is no future.

Bob Koski| 12.12.08 @ 10:03AM

Too bad... "Tom Daschle Pontiac" didn't work out after all...

Dustoff| 12.12.08 @ 10:15AM

If they want to give us Gov health care. Fine, but our Congess must also have the same stinking plan we get.

See how fast that will change.

Michael L. Hauschild| 12.12.08 @ 10:15AM

"Team Obama" has a scant two years to get this done. How they will get the electorate to go alone with another round of "government efficiency" will be a challenge for even the oratory of Obama.

Crusader| 12.12.08 @ 10:27AM

My question is what's up with Daschle's "Sally Jesse Raphael" red glasses? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Marc Jeric| 12.12.08 @ 10:47AM

Medicare and Medicaid represent the proverbial camel's nose in the tent; that will develop into the socialist health care system run by the government bureaucrats. There is only one big obstacle to this marxist scam and our only hope - and that is the trial lawyers. How are they to become rich suing the state instead of doctors and their insurance companies?

Dr Max| 12.12.08 @ 11:04AM

As a trapped physician working for the Federal Government (I signed a few years of my life away in exchange for 'free' medical school) I can tell you that it is not an exaggeration to say that government health care (military, VA) is run like the post office and/or your local Dept. of Motor vehicles.

Substandard care is the norm. For example, I bet you don't know that the military considers a PA (physician's assistant) to be equivalent of a licensed physician as far as privileges to independently care for patients. PAs have two years of training. A family practicioner or internal medicine doctor has a minimum of 7 years of training. In most states, PA's are not allowed to practice indepentently. However, in the military it is the norm - leading to many mistakes, misdiagnoses, and delay in treatment. In my local community a 'free clinic' was shut down by the state because PA's were working without physician oversite. Tuns out that this is against state law (i.e. practicing medicine without a license). But across the street on base (federal property) this dangerous practice is allowed and encouraged by the buffoons (i.e. bureaucrats) who run the clinic.

I could go on for days detailing the idiocy of this little government run clinic. It would be funny except we are not dealing with driver's licenses here, but peoples lives.

Daschle is just another in a long line of morons who think they have the expertise to create a better health care system. You have no idea what's coming. If you did, there would be an armed revolt.

Joanne B.| 12.12.08 @ 11:09AM

Beware of socialized medicine. As an American currently residing in Canada, I prefer private versus socialized medicine. In Canada, you must first see a family physician (if you can find one) before being "allowed" to go to a specialist. You may have to wait months to see a dermatologist (waited four months to see one). Socialized medicine limits your freedom of choice.

Joe| 12.12.08 @ 11:15AM

You can go on till the cows come home about what Obama represents--but nothing SCARES me more in terms of impacting our daily lives (and, regretfully, hastened deaths) than they're socialized healthcare nostrums.

As a military veteran (where my family experience socialized medicine), and with friends who have lived in Canada and Great Britain, I can tell you what I believe is coming: longer waiting periods for appointments, less access to specialists, lesser qualified medical personnel, no continuity of care, less breakthrough medicines and less access to those already invented, and the cold, uncaring mentality of the Department of Motor Vehicles.

I disagree with the article in one way--this is too big of a watershed issue to just get in the fetal position about. Where's the calvary marshalling up to fight this??

Joe| 12.12.08 @ 11:16AM

For you linguists, please replace "they're" with "their" in my first sentence

Obama Rules| 12.12.08 @ 12:30PM

Let's hear it for socialized medicine! Finally things will get better. You'll see. No more forms to fill out 900 fricking times to get a stupid refund on glasses you bought 3 years ago.

Tony Webb| 12.12.08 @ 2:24PM

Obama Rules.

Hey what happens if in this new health care plan, it also offer euthanasia, as a perk.

dave| 12.12.08 @ 4:15PM

Heard of medical bankruptcy, or pre-existing condition you social darwinist? I really hope you do someday

ottovbvs| 12.12.08 @ 4:18PM

Entirely true of course but at the end of the day a single payer system is quite simply the most efficient way of operating a universal healthcare system. It doesn't mean the delivery system will not in the main remain privatized just that all the payments will come from a single source with a single set of rules instead of dozens of different sources with different rules which along with arguing about who pays is what accounts for a substantial part of the high cost of the current system. Klein as is usual when conservatives are writing about this, muddies up these distinctions. It's not going to happen overnight for both presentational reasons (which is what Klein is really talking about) and organizational/economic reasons. A whole industry has been built around the current very expensive way of doing things and that cannot be dismantled overnight. I'm bound to say I can't see why conservatives are so wrapped up with defending a system that is so indefensible. It really makes neither economic or social sense and has all sorts of collateral consequences like the drag on labor mobility. I'm afraid it's one of those shibboleths that have built up over time, we have lots of others unfortunately, so that defending it has become kneejerk rather than a matter of realism. That accounts for all the sort of hyperbolic nonsense you see in some of these postings which are all about emotion and very little to do with reality. It also drags us into all kinds of policy positions that simply don't add up and thereby tarnish our credibility. viz McCain's tax cut plan that was economic nonsense and riddled with holes which is why neither he nor anyone else could explain it properly. This whole issue is actually a massive national incubus. Obama will be doing us a favor if he resolves it once and for all because it's an argument we're never going to win.

montana| 12.12.08 @ 4:33PM

Here we go again with this "socialize medicine" BS.

Tell you what, if you're so against "socialized medicine" then call or write your Congressman and Senator and tell them to shut down Bethesda Naval Hospital and Walter Reed Hospital where our brave Iraq and Afghanistan war Vets get put back together again after being blown up by car bombs and IEDs. Tell them those government paid and government trained military doctors and physical therpists who work valiantly in government owned hospitals to patch together those 20 year old kids missing arms and legs they're a bunch of incompetent bureaucrats and send 'em out into the loving hands of a for profit privately run HMO!!!

Do you have the guts to that?

Lazzarous| 12.12.08 @ 4:41PM

Tom Daschle and Obama obviously think during this time of the greatest recession in history. They can raise the dead, and make the lame walk and the blind see. But even the one's who are not blind, still can't see.

Bailing out dead companies, propping up the cripple, the question is how long can people remain fools for. Bailout the 3 car companies is dragging out the obvious it's finish, bust Chapter 11 bankrupt.

The American Dream, died years ago but 75% of the population are drug addicts did not realise the party was over. The empire is a joke, they kicked Hillary out of the race because, every one knows it's over.

So let Obama have this mess, the fact is, what is going to happen when the rest of the 350 Billion they have left is finished? what are they going to do?. Try and think about it, a country like America with 300 Million people. All have to have jobs to have food, to pay rent or mortgage. Utilities, car payments, health care, transportation, it takes money.

When people don't have money, they focus on their necessities, in the meantime companies goes bust.

A country the size of America will not be able to pay its debts, and do all these things. America I would give it till March 2009. Before it begins to collapse.

The only thing that would make sense is if the government gave the citizens of America the money, if they put it in Banks the Banks will steal it. Either way there is going to be martial law, because America has gone bust.

The richest country in the world, lived on theft, corruption, fight to take what is not theirs to have. Using the might of the gun, what is going to happen when the government can't pay the Armed forces.

It's over and the only people who don't know it are people who still think of America all misty eyed, and far removed from reality. What is Obama going to use to pay teachers?. Whole State has already gone bankrupt, who is going to pay the fire fighters, the Police force.

You people are really DUMB down to the point of being in a TRANCE.

Try and imagine Katerina 100 times worse and that is how America will be in a few months time.
Nothing to do with Obama, it is the simple fact the country is BROKE.

James Hovland| 12.12.08 @ 4:44PM

This is not Canada. America spends far more on health care than anyone else, we will not have the shortages, long lines and rationing like everyone else does. We have an embarrassingly high infant mortality rate, shorter life spans, etc... Our health care is obviously NOT the best, regardless of what the insurance companies tell you.

The insurance companies are spending our health care dollars on anti-government propaganda. Our money is being wasted on political contributions, lobbyists, and propaganda. Why is our system so corrupt? Because you people pay for it. Stop funding the corruption.

Doctors and Hospitals should stay private and enjoy all the advantages of competing in the free market. We don't want socialized medicine. But we really don't want the waste or corruption that comes with insurance either. Is anyone here happy that your health care dollars were used to help elect Senator Max Baucus(D-MO)? The insurance mandate Max proposed is exactly the kind of government control we don't want. Does the anti-government propaganda that you're reading point our where the corruption comes from, or is it just an emotional trigger meant to cause fear? The insurance companies want your business, and they will say anything to get it. Are you going to keep buying into their scam, or is it time to finally clean house?

Lazzarous| 12.12.08 @ 4:53PM

James Hovland.

Well said, when people grow up and stop funding corruption, that is the only time any one wil have change.

For every $1.00 spent on health $10.00 is wasted.

Dustoff| 12.12.08 @ 5:00PM

Montana.
Bethesda Naval Hospital and Walter Reed Hospital
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Did you just return from the land of OZ. It wasn't long ago when all of American saw the sub-std health care our men & women were getting from these places.
After the war is over with the poor care will return again.
As a former Army Medic is saw this mess all to often.
(obama fan) you talked about paper work. I take it you've never worked in a DR office or ER and seen the paper work they fill out just for medicare.

doctormark| 12.12.08 @ 5:10PM

You might ask why the U.S. health care system has higher costs and poorer outcomes than those of almost all other industrialized countries. Hint, the insurance companies don't give a rat's a$$ about your health. They squeeze the patients by denying care, and they squeeze the providers by cutting payments. All the insurance companies care about is their bottom line, not your health.

Dustoff| 12.12.08 @ 5:12PM

Lazz
Well said, when people grow up and stop funding corruption, that is the only time any one wil have change.
_______________________________

LOL, yeah our gov is NEVER corrupt.

Like cattle to a killing pen.
I tell you want folks. Do you even think in your right mind that YOUR (Gov) healthcare will be anywhere near as good as Congress. If so I have a bridge to sell ya.

Justin| 12.12.08 @ 5:14PM

Guts? What in hell do you know about guts?

Speaking as one of those "kids" who has had a Bethesda neurologist going through his skull; yes I'd prefer getting my medical care from a private source, one which I choose, one that won't lose my medical records (all four copies), one closer to my home, and one that doesn't have to deal with dysfunctional congressional authority. This is not the fault of the Bethesda medics; its just that they are overworked, underpaid, and haven't half the equipment at hand that a better run institute would have. The "kids" who took care of me weren't a bunch of incompotent bureaucrats, but they sure as hell were being hamgstrung by a pack of them.

There is no way you can convince me that civillian medical staff can put up with the half the crap that you deal with in the military setting without a massive exodus of people heading out the door. Given the retention rates, it sure as hell seems like too many of those "kids" don't think the system is particularly well run.

So yes, I have the guts to say that the military medical system is screwed up to no end and that it would be an utter catrastrophe to expect the entire American medical system to deal with that hell without burning out the people who have to work in it.

It boggles my mind that people can look at the medical programs the US government already runs and say "Yes, we want to give the idiots who gave us this Charlie Foxtrot even more power."

montana| 12.12.08 @ 5:17PM

Nope. I don't live in the land of OZ. I live and work in the DC area and evidently know much more about Walter Reed and Bethesda Naval Hospital than you do. Both my father (34 years service in the USN) and mother received medical treatment at Bethesda Naval Hospital which is first class incidently.

As a matter of fact your heros GWB and Dick Cheney get their medical care at Bethesda Naval Hospital. Socialized medicine, huh? Cheney had a stent place in his heart not long ago by a military doctor.

Lastly, I doubt you are former Army medic else you wouldn't criticize your former Army medics who work VERY hard every day at Walter Reed to put back together our kids (and yes they are kids) coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan in pieces.

No, you're just some Rush Limbaugh ditto dork right wing crank spewing off so I (and I trust most others here) don't take you too seriously.

You're side got their asses kicked last Nov 4th so deal with it. You and your far right wing slime bags have been rejected into political oblivion.

Now go away.

Appleblossom| 12.12.08 @ 5:22PM

Having a single third payer can reduce costs down at least by simplifying the method of payment. That saves up to 25% right off the bat.

Now I have private insurance and one of my colleagues is eligible for Medicare. We both have sleep apnea and use a cpap machine. To get his, he had to have one sleep test, got the machine a week later, had one minor issue with the mask and got his replacement the next day. My experience with my private insurer was different-It took me a month to have one test, however there was some kind of problem with that so I had to have a second test another month later. Then I had to have a THIRD test because the insurance company required me to be asleep a certain number of minutes (off by six minutes.) It took me a further three weeks to get approval for the machine, then nearly a month to get the appointment to be fitted for the machine and "taught how to use it." My colleague gets his replacements automatically in the mail every six months. Me? I have to track down the company that supplied the initial machine, schedule another appointment and then maybe get my replacement parts.

Based on my experience, I would love to have the "inefficiencies" of government run third payer.

montana| 12.12.08 @ 5:25PM

Justin:

You're just a bitter right wing pip squeek filling the air with blather and nonsense.

As I said to another poster, you're side lost and lost big last November. You right wing losers have been relegated to political irrelevance where you belong.

Mel C. Thompson| 12.12.08 @ 5:27PM

The Lesser of Evils Is Real:

We have to stop faking like we don't know that all the imperfections of a government health care program will never equal a tenth of the evil of the CORPORATE health care program. Notice Conservatives never use the word "corporate." That's because if you talk about the DMV as a health care model, in isolation from the current model, people think you're brilliant. But, notice no one ever says anything like this, ever: "I really believe Kaiser cares so deeply for us as people." And no one ever says, "Kaiser would never let greed stop them from helping a patient." No one ever, ever says, "Yes, when it comes to life and death, my heart just glows with trust for Kaiser." No one ever says that.

I've been in many PPOs and HMOs, and here's the truth, if you're chronically ill, you get way better service in the local welfare hospital where people with no coverage and no money at all have to go. Alarmingly, I've had friends get better care in the deepest recesses of the third world, truly, than in many instances at their HMO.

No one ever says to me: "Boy, I'm so very, very glad that this kind and benevolent and caring HMO is in charge of my health care." No one ever says, "I'm sure glad HMO Medical Directors are running things. HMO Medical Directors earning hundreds of thousands a year are way, way, way better than government clerks." No one ever says that because it's not true.

So, I'm not saying government health care is good. It's often somewhat bad. I'm saying that CORPORATE health care, (say it again, the word, use it, "corporate), is way, way worse. Remember, there is not a magical third choice. There is no "reform" of CORPORATE medicine, and there is no non-corporate, non-government miracle alternative. If you don't have state medicine, you FOR SURE HAVE CORPORATE medicine.

You mock the DMV. Well, think of this: Would you want Comcast running your health care system. I'll tell you this, when I call a government office, it sucks. But when I call THE CORPORATE CALL CENTERS

Mel C. Thompson| 12.12.08 @ 5:32PM

When I call the CORPORATE CALL CENTERS, I get transferred to a call center in THE THIRD WORLD somewhere. Hey, government medical people never told me, when I needed extra help, that there was, as corporations do, NO ADDRESS TO WRITE TO, nor did they ever say there is NO OFFICE TO GO TO to complain, nor did they ever say I had to call a number that would be transferred to a banana republic dictatorship. Remember, 90% of all medicine will be either CORPORATE or government.

Frankly, when something goes wrong with my government health care, I HAVE RECOURSE. I call the county board of supervisors, and I call my congressperson and state representatives. There are dozens of avenues for me to appeal and lobby to. With HMOs, if I'm not happy, I'm referred to the CORPORATE HACK called a patient representative, who does nothing, and beyond that there is no appeal.

Try calling your congressperson and saying your HMO is being unfair and see how far you get. When the county was denying me medical help, I appealed to higher officials who got me my appointment very quickly. HMOs lied to me, they stole from my employer by taking millions of dollars and delivering no health care from it.

CORPORATE MEDICINE

Mel C. Thomposon| 12.12.08 @ 5:44PM

So remember, government health care has problems and CORPORATE health care is an utter nightmare. One is somewhat evil. The other is shockingly evil. Given a choice between slow treatment by the government and NO TREATMENT by the HMO, I'll take slow treatment every time. Given a choice between inefficient treatment by the government and completely botched and destructive treatment by HMOs, I'll take inefficiency every time.

HMOs only work for basically healthy people with really simple problems that are easy to diagnose and preferably can be treated with a cheap pill. HMOs are good at assembly-line surgeries that require no thinking, no experimentation, no caring and just mindless recipe following. If you get something chronic that's tricky, you're as good as dead with HMOs. Only major problems that are super obvious get treated by HMOs. I've never had a government doctor as horrific as HMO doctors. Don't get me wrong, I've had some bad county doctors, but never as horrific as THE CORPORATE DOCTORS you get with HMOs.

Remember, your alternative to HMOs is not some private world when you hire great independent doctors who treat you privately based on their good conscience. Only very lucky people get that. Remember, if you're not high end, you get HMOs. HMOs are CORPORATE MEDICAL CARE.

Let's stop pretending that corporations are efficient and caring. All the stories I ever heard from England and Canada of unhappy people who came to America for treatment were all people who could afford Private Pay. Rich people, or poor dudes with family who are helping them. Notice no poor person from Canada ever comes here, hangs out at Kaiser for a few months and then says, "Oh my, this HMO stuff is just so great."

The anti-universal-health care crowd is either healthy enough that HMOs are enough for them, or are rich enough for private pay. You never find people who are chronically ill with tricky complicated stuff who ever like HMOs. In fact, the county I used to live in is saving the life of friend right now with expensive medicines. After he became unemployed, no HMO volunteered to do this. Let's get real, CORPORATIONS are horrid at health care. In fact, CORPORATIONS are so bad a health care, that they make inefficient government look benevolent by comparison.

I'll take slow healthcare
over NO healthcare.
What I currently get is
No healthcare.
No HMO has stepped forward.
No corporation has stepped forward.
I am not afraid of a four-month wait for an x-ray, considering that the corporate plan is for me to NEVER get one. NEVER is way worse that four months. So I'll take the government over Kaiser any day.

Mel C. Thompson| 12.12.08 @ 5:50PM

FOUR MONTHS VERSUS NEVER

People are upset at the four-month wait to see a specialist. Guess what. My wait, the wait they had planned for me, was ETERNITY. So why would a person like me who just goes YEARS and YEARS with absolutely no treatment off OF ANY KIND, be afraid of a system that makes me wait four months? I don't get it. For instance, if you were in a country that made you wait four months to get a job, why would you choose a country in which you NEVER got a job. I don't get it. Never is NEVER. So, compared to NEVER, which is the current plan for tens of millions of Americans, why is four months bad? Four months would only be bad if you were rich enough to afford a plan where, as part of the plan, you had some actual control. When you can afford no plan, you have ZERO input. Waiting four months to have my say is different than NEVER, EVER getting a chance.

I don't think you get that NEVER is really NEVER for the poor. And, since many Americans are finding out about poverty now, and since their smug, little, pat, positive thinking macho aphorisms aren't working anymore, now NEVER seems really real to them. Four months, by comparison, will seem really generous. You Conservatives are losing your audience because you can't fit in your brain what it's like to NEVER get to see a doctor.

D Max| 12.12.08 @ 6:13PM

I had to declare bankruptcy a few years ago because my daughter fell out of a tree; impaling herself upon a tree branch. My choice was either get her treatment I could not afford or watch her die. I chose the treatments. I lost my home, car and credit rating but my daughter is alive. Nobody in this country should have to choose between the life of their daughter and bankruptcy. Anybody who thinks we have the greatest health care system in the world needs to think again.

DaveinHackensack| 12.12.08 @ 6:23PM

Our current system isn't perfect, but part of the reason we spend more on health care than anyone else is that we spend more on health care research and development, and the rest of the world free rides on our R&D;. For example, one American cancer center -- M.D. Anderson in Texas -- spends more on research than all of Canada. A lot of our medical breakthroughs come from the private sector: America leads the world in pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, medical devices, and related fields.

Given that the costs of our current single-payer system (Medicare) are already growing much faster than our trend GDP growth, the only way for the government to control costs in a universal single-payer system would be through price controls and rationing. That would dry up funds for research, and lower wages in health care professions, so we'd attract less-qualified health care professionals.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, why not pursue limited reforms to deal with the problems of the minority of Americans that is uninsured? It would be far cheaper and less disruptive for the government to subsidize private insurance for those with pre-existing conditions, for example, than it would be to nationalize the entire health care industry. Another reform that would reduce costs would be to allow consumers to shop for health care across state lines. Still another reform would be to reform medical liability, so huge liability insurance premiums and the high costs of unnecessary defensive medical tests don't get passed along to consumers.

Lazzarous| 12.12.08 @ 6:32PM

Mel C Thompson.

The truth is, Americans need a reality check, never mind a health check.

Out of the 300 Million people who live in America, how many do you think have HIV AIDS?

What is the percentage that are drug addicts. The helth care programme would bankrupt an already bankrupt country. How many have TB. Think about it. How many is obest?.

Then there is the number of Mentally ill people to consider.

Fred| 12.12.08 @ 6:35PM

"I had to declare bankruptcy a few years ago because my daughter fell out of a tree; impaling herself upon a tree branch."

You had to declare bankruptcy because you neglected to buy health insurance coverage for your child, even though low cost, subsidized coverage (S-Chip) was available for you if you lower middle class.

What if you had neglected to buy auto insurance and got sued into bankruptcy after you slammed into someone -- would that, by your logic, be a valid argument in favor of universal national auto insurance?

harkin| 12.12.08 @ 6:42PM

Veterans hospitals are such a disgrace in substandard health care that the answer is to make them universal? Only liberals could advocate such.

Justin| 12.12.08 @ 6:50PM

Mr. Montana:

Ahh, sorry. I thought you actually respected those of us who served in the armed forces and that you valued our opinions - even if those of us who serve tend to vote differently from you.

My mistake, please go back to extolling how "brave" and "valiant" we "kids" are. I should have known my place; I only exist to serve as an object of pathos so that you may browbeat those with whom you disagree. I should not offer my considered opinion about topics with which I am much more intimately familiar than you.

You are completely right; because the Republican Party lost an election those of us who served have nothing to contribute to any policy discussion - even those about which we have more direct experience. It is quite right that whenever Democrats win office that those of us who have had our blood spilled in the service of our country are "relegated to political irrelevance "; it is where we "belong", after all.

Greg| 12.12.08 @ 7:16PM

After reading this article, I can confidently say that I learned nothing. All it amounts to is a polemic about how terrible a single-payer health system would be, without providing any facts to support that opinion. It rides on the assumption that socialized medicine is an unpopular idea in America, without providing any opinion polls or anything of the like. In reality, the American people are split, at worst, over the issue. The government and special interests have long been opposed to socialized medicine, of course because it would drastically reduced their obscene profits. However, the American public has yearned for this advance for much longer than it has been a "newsworthy" discussion in the mass media. Next time, try putting in some actual academia to support your claims, rather than just playing off of the people's fear of socialism (i.e. Soviet communism, which really wasn't socialism at all).

uber| 12.12.08 @ 7:41PM

Health insurance companies need to be crushed as fast as the UAW, and ambulence chasers. Insurance companies are as bloated and aimless as Ma Bell before it was destroyed. Everything is regulated into non-competition and broken into separate state organizations. Providers are regulated into dysfunction, and insurance companies are left holding gobs of money they can't figure out how to waste fast enough. Employer based medical benefits is just dumb.

It cripples employers and indentures workers. Who knows, maybe I wont even notice the crappier health care, and maybe I wont mind being euthanized in 30 years as much as I'd think I would.

montana| 12.12.08 @ 7:42PM

Justin:

First of all I think you're a liar with regard to your service in the military. Second of all, you're just some anonymous right wing gas bag venting on a website hoping against all odds someone actually believes your rants.

Believe or not many Democrats spill blood in wars. Probably more than Republican since most Republicans belong to the wealthy priviledged class and therefor don't serve in the military. Bobby Kerry, an ex Navy Seal and a former Democratic Senator from Nebraska is a Congression Medal of Honor recipient. Max Cleland, a Vietnam Vet lost both legs and and arm also has a distinguished military record. Cleland ironically was defeated by Vietnam draft dodger Saxby Chambliss.

I'll put up the aforementioned Democrat's military service against those of your chicken hawk hero's like Newt Gingrich (student deferment), Dick Cheney (5 student deferments and "had other priorities"), and GWB (father pulling strings to get George junior a Texas Air National Guard slot).

BTW, you're starting to sound whiny and melodramatic.

A. Kenneth Goldsby| 12.12.08 @ 7:46PM

I'm fond of telling anyone willing to listen that if I were Canadian I'd be dead. Some years ago, I had an abrupt - literally over-night - coronary occlusion, manifested as angina. This was on Tuesday. By Friday, I was in for treatment. They tried angioplasty - pushing a shunt through the blockage. After several tries, the cardiologist looked down at me and said, "This isn't working. We'll have to do a by-pass. And they wheeled me into the operating room. After it was all over the cardiologist said I came through with no problems. "On the other hand," he said. "Two more weeks, and you'd've been gone." In Canada, there was an average of 4 - 6 weeks wait for this operation. During which time I would have expired.
Since the comments above are not in chronological order, I don't know just who is responding to what. But I had a career as a fighter pilot and was subject to military medicine, which is not 'socialized' but specialized medicine. Military physicians and surgeons are trained to treat battlefield wounds/injuries, to deal with high altitude conditions, etc. As for VA hospitals, veterans are owed treatment for wounds/injuries they suffered in the line of duty. I have a friend who is an MD and consultant to the VA. I think I'll refer this to him.

Jasper| 12.12.08 @ 7:48PM

You had to declare bankruptcy because you neglected to buy health insurance coverage for your child, even though low cost, subsidized coverage (S-Chip) was available for you if you lower middle class.

Fred: It's entirely possible the original poster with the impaled daughter had no idea of the existence of S-Chip coverage. What good is an "available" program if the onus is on consumers (most of whom aren't policy wonks who frequent blogs and argue about policy) to find out about it and participate. One of the beauties of any truly universal healthcare system is it's simplicity: if you're a citizen, you're covered: no worries about bankruptcy, or pre-existing conditions, or COBRA , or any of that B.S. that stresses out non-rich Americans on a regular basis.

debbieqd| 12.12.08 @ 7:54PM

Americans will never have good, affordable health care until the insurance companies are taken out of it. Go Obama and Daschle! It's time for a single payer system.

Jasper| 12.12.08 @ 8:06PM

I'm fond of telling anyone willing to listen that if I were Canadian I'd be dead.

Kenneth Goldsby: a large percentage of the procedures (in the U.S.) like the one you describe are paid for by Medicare, because most Americans with advanced CV disease are age-eligible for Medicare. So, if what you're describing is accurate, what it mostly tells us is that America's own Big Evil Socialist Healthcare Plan (Medicare) is much more lavishly funded than its Canadian counterpart.

Harriette Seiler| 12.12.08 @ 8:30PM

Some comments here indicate that the posters need to do a little research. Rent SiCKO. Read HR 676, the single payer legislation supported by 93 co-sponsors in the 110th Congress. A single payer system would cover everyone and require no new money! I am not in favor of the Daschle-Obama plan as now spelled out because the HMOs will still be able to siphon off approx. 20-30 cents of every health care dollar. And they are not providers? No, they make money by denying care! The Massachusetts plan is not working. Businesses are hurting. People still cannot get primary care and must go to the ER which raises the cost for everyone. I was born and raised in Canada and have most of my family still there--all ages and income levels-- several with serious health problems. It's odd. but everyone I know who needed urgent care in Canada has received it. And I'd like you to ask a Canadian how much he or she had to spend for cancer treatment, brain surgery or an appendectomy?
Recent Nobel winners in Economics have said that the free market is not suited to certain commodities. Health care is one such commodity.
Go to www.change.gov and tell Tom Daschle you want an equitable , humane, single payer system. Louisville, KY

Sid| 12.12.08 @ 8:32PM

I get absolutely amazed to see that people who have never used socialized medicine somehow seem to know more about socialized medicare than those who have been using it for years (if not decades).

I have been using socialized medicare for years in Canada and the only time when I had to deal with bureaucrats was when I applied for the provincial Health Card which took me about one hour of my time.

I have not seen or talked to any bureaucrats for healthcare matters since then except when I misplaced and lost my Health Card and had to replace it (which took me about 2 minutes on the phone).

The fear of bureaucratic jungle in socialized medicare system is absolutely bull***t . Every time when I had medical issues the only people I had to deal with were the doctors, nurses and other specialized caregivers and the conversations were about my medical issues and nothing else.

By the way, I absolutely dont need to worry about health insurance when I lose job and those medical procedures that might otherwise cost me tens of thousands of dollars (which I might not have when I need).

RealStraightTalk| 12.12.08 @ 9:08PM

Canada and all of the European countries with socialized medicine are democracies. Why don't we ever hear of an election to get rid of their socialized medical care? Why don't we read about anyone running for office even proposing to copy to great American system? Not eeven Reagan/s girl, Maggie Thatcher was dumb enough to propse that. I'd suggest its because the vast majority are satisfied.

Doesn't it make sense that if we took back the money the insurance companies pocket and pour it into actual health care, we'd get more care for less money? Can anyone explain what Aetna is doing to make my health care better?

pnkearns| 12.12.08 @ 9:10PM

If we're going down the road of national health care, then my only requirement is all law makers AND all national health care advocate groups be required to be covered by the MINIMUM policy offered to the public - no supplemental benefits. They should be forced in the private lives to live by what they give to the least of their citizens. Nothing will focus the attention of Congress and the rest of the health care bureaucracy/advocates groups like having to live day to day with whatever plan they give the rest of us.

Justin| 12.12.08 @ 9:14PM

Mr. Montana:

Quite curios, do you innately suspect everyone of lying about their service or just those who disagree with you?

A few quick points I suggest you ponder:
1. I suggest you develop a more refined sense of sarcasm and hyperbole.

2. Would it interest you to know that I am not a Republican; that I can point to places where both Democrats and Republicans have screwed over the military?

3. While the military according to last survey I saw did vote around 2:1 for McCain, this is the weakest the Republican tendency has been in decades. By far more Republicans serve. The house districts with the highest enlistment rates tend to vote Republican; on a state by state comparison it is even more heavily skewed that way.
3. "My heroes", such as they exist in politics, are JFK (cheated on his medical tests to get in), Ronald Reagan (applied multiple times until they let him in even with disqualifying eyesight), Winston Churchill (served in WWI in the trenches and fought somewhat unofficially in the Boer War) and Teddy Roosevelt.
4. I know of countless Democrats who have been injured in the line of duty. In my view one's political ideology is irrelevant to the question at hand. How well does the federal government manage military medicine, does this inspire confidence to have them de facto manage more (either through direct means or via monopsonistic pricing)?

From my own experience, the government does a terrible job at managing hospitals, medical records, medical orders, and countless other aspects of patient care. Given how royally both parties are able to screw things over (incompetence, corruption, polarization, etc.), government monopsony just begs for massive trouble when the some idiot gets into power (take your pick: GWB, Carter, Nixon, LBJ, Harding, Grant, Johnson ...).

Frankly in the course of our discussion you have yet to respond to a single point with anything other than argumentum ad hominem. Here I thought you'd be an open minded, tolerant guy who let's observed facts make their own case. But I was wrong about how much you value the actual opinions of the men and women in service; I guess I'm wrong about this too.

Txskywatch| 12.12.08 @ 9:46PM

Brave New World, here we come! Yes!!

JohnnyRussia| 12.12.08 @ 9:50PM

Guess what, Phil? Yes, "such ideas" as "socialized health care" ARE popular in the United States. That's why we overwhelmingly elected Barack Obama and why we overwhelmingly reject old. stale dogma such as yours.

PublicHealthClinician| 12.12.08 @ 10:07PM

My experience leads me to agree with Mr. Klein as well as with commenters MarcJeric, DrMax, Joe,harkin, uber, and A.KennethGoldsby.

MarcJeric, there is another camel with its nose in the tent: State Children’s Health Improvement Plan (SCHIP). Mrs. Clinton may have been publicly humiliated in her first attempt to create a national health care plan but she didn’t give up, she just took a different tack. In her autobiography she takes full credit for working “behind the scenes” during her White House years to create SCHIP, a Medicare/Medicaid-type plan for children whose parents make too much money to be eligible for Medicaid. Ted Kennedy was a sponsor of the bill creating SCHIP. In 2007 when Pres Bush had the chance to expand State Children’s Health Improvement Plan coverage to more people, he refused to, stating that it was designed to cover children yet in four states SCHIP already covered more adults than children. My personal prediction is that under HHS Secretary Daschle SCHIP will be expanded to cover everyone, period.

Also be aware that HIPAA---the so-called “privacy act”---is absolutely essential to national health care. HIPAA is not about protecting your privacy. What that paper your doctor makes you sign really says is that for reasons of “treatment, payment, or operations” your records may be shared without your knowledge. That means receptionists in any of the doctors’ offices where you receive “treatment” can give info in your health records to each other without your knowledge. (I seek and receive such info daily and rarely does anyone even ask for proof that the patient is receiving care from me. Sometimes I receive entire charts when all I need is answers to a few questions.) Likewise, anyone involved in “payment” of claims---such as your insurance company, your employer or the government---can access your medical records without your knowledge. Finally, “operations” covers almost anything else, from taking info from your records to add to databases for statistical analysis, to researching treatment outcomes as related to your compliance with “doctors orders,” to auditing your “provider” to see if they are following the many rules for treatment and billing created by public as well as private insurance “plans”---all without your knowledge.

Your doctor is soon not going to have a choice about using computers for claims. Having everything about your medical history in computerized form---this is the real driving force behind digital xray systems---is essential for accessing medical records anywhere in the world for all the purposes HIPAA warns you your records can be freely accessed for without your knowledge. For more on the Dept of Health and Human Services’ plan for “transforming health care through information technology” google NHII history.

All of the above being said, I also agree with commenter Mel C. Thompson: in most cases, lower-quality government-run care is better than no care at all.

Fred| 12.13.08 @ 12:46AM

"Canada and all of the European countries with socialized medicine are democracies. Why don't we ever hear of an election to get rid of their socialized medical care? "

When have people ever voted to start paying out of pocket for something their wealthier countrymen are already footing the bill for through their taxes?

Lars| 12.13.08 @ 1:29AM

This discussion is quite amusing, seeing it from the European perspective.

How can it be so difficult to understand that under this plan, you will still keep your freedom of choice? YOU will select your doctor or hospital, not the government. It'll be much like today, you'll be able to use services and receive treatment for covered conditions, the difference is you'll pay through your tax dollars rather than to the Ponzi HMO-scheme.

You folks are paying way more than the rest of the civilized world, and yet you get less care in return

You don't take efforts to prevent illness; you treat symptoms. Result? Greatly exaggarated total cost, lower life expectancy, poor quality of life for affected individuals, all while pushing a productive member of socity out of the work-force, into the sickbed.

It's not good business to lose a taxpayer and have to pay for an extensive treatment, when it all could've been prevented in the first place by investing a few hundred dollars into a check-up and some meds. And, if you weren't aware, society as a whole works like a business. The business of the United States of America, competing against the world. If you're running a business, you'll fix a problem, even if the fault is with a subcontractor; unless you wish to get a bigger tab for less work.

The most mindboggling of it all is still how most american accept the current system. That's where my cultural understanding fails..

James Hovland| 12.13.08 @ 2:11AM

Dave,
Insurance is not good for our health or our wallet. You suggested, "subsidize private insurance for those with pre-existing conditions". Why would you do that? Paying for their health care is enough, we don't need to pay extra for insurance too. Why should we pay for their insurance when all they need is health care? This doesn't make any sense. We need to cut costs not add more on. If we spend the same amount but don't give any of it away to the insurance companies, we will have enough to cover everyone and extra money to make it better care. What don't you understand about cutting unnecessary expenses? As for government involvement, It takes more bureaucracy and government control to protect the people from insurance than it would to just do the job for them. Don't plan on spending my tax dollars on corporate middleman profits.

Jack Carlson| 12.13.08 @ 2:22AM

What irks me about all these discussions on socialized medicine is that they fail to address the primary cause of health care price inflation in this country. Health care is so expensive in the USA because of the threat of liability lawsuits on a massive scale. Unless this is STOPPED, the problems of access and cost cannot be fixed, period. By anyone.

The politicians seem to want to finesse the system without addressing the real problem of cost. Get rid of liability litigation (and the threat of it) and you will be astonished at the lowered prices and sudden availability of medical care!

James Hovland| 12.13.08 @ 2:42AM

Lars, imagine for a second, from the European perspective, how your system would be if you spent as much on it, as we do on ours? Now imagine understanding that, and being an American stuck in our system. I'm trying to keep my cool.

It's a little frustrating dealing with people effected by the anti-government propaganda. The insurance companies are pouring money into this 'reform'. Things are rough right now, but the people are catching on. We just need to be louder than insurance. Thanks for commenting. I think we win this time.

rapchat| 12.13.08 @ 4:35AM

I once worked for 4 months for one of the biggest health care providers in the US. It was the most vile and inefficient place I ever worked. Never ever for a single moment think that a health insurance company has anything but screwing you in mind, and they will go as far as they can push to bury you in paperwork to delay or deny coverage. Astonishingly, many of managers drew 100K+ salaries and never did any visible work beyond attending the weekly sales and "claim loss" meeting - and there really was the room of peaple poring over claims looking for hidden reasons to deny coverage. I quit in disgust. We cannot get a single payer system here fast enough - it will free up millions of dollars lost to paperwork shuffling leeches!

Dostoy| 12.13.08 @ 4:39AM

Finally, whether people work or whatever they do, however much they inherited or Ponzi-schemed out of a corrupt system, however mistakenly or intentionally they were left behind, when their bodies fail, when they're helpless and the same, when there is no difference at all, at all, between any of us, we will all receive the same standard of care. Even if it's lower in the aggregate at least the wealthy won't be effectively living off the suffering of their less fortunate brothers and sisters.

rapchat| 12.13.08 @ 4:44AM

I meant to type, "I once worked for 4 months for one of the biggest health care insurance providers"....

John Blade| 12.13.08 @ 5:19AM

If the medical benefits enjoyed by the US Congress and the US Military isn't socialized health care what is?

P Aaronson| 12.13.08 @ 6:08AM

I am an American who has lived in Britain, which has a socialized health care system. This system is one of the reasons I have stayed here so long, and it is extremely popular with the population, although like any health care system it has problems. It is much more efficient than the US system; we pay about 2/3 of what American's pay for health care. We pay through our taxes, so I never have to think about cost when I go to the doctor or to the hospital. Prescriptions are very cheap, a 3 month prescription costs me the equivalent of 10 dollars.The whole system is driven by an ethos of bang for buck, as determined by cost benefit analysis for treatments, and as far as I'm concerned this is the great strength of government run health care systems in general; they balance cost against patient outcomes rather than balancing it against profit, as in the US. The Daschle-Obama plan is only one step, but it's definitely a big step in the right direction.

Rod| 12.13.08 @ 6:37AM

Someone asked where the money would come from. After all, any health care system must be paid for. One run by the government would be subject to government inefficienties not to mention corruption and political cronism. Right now the Medicare Part A (hospital insurance) premium for 2009 will be $443.00 for insured who don't have 30 work credits, and for those who do have 30 work credits it will be $244.00 per month.

Pavehawkdoc| 12.13.08 @ 6:45AM

I am an Air Force Reserve flight surgeon presently typing this from my deployed "office" at a forward operating base in Afghanistan. My regular civilian job is as a hospital based Internal Medicine doc and feel I am qualified to speak about the differences between military, VA, and civilian medicine. I spend a good portion of my day even here out in the middle of nowhere trying to take care of my wounded warriors fighting bureaucracy and uncaring stateside administrators.
Military hospitals of excellence have great physicians and nurses. Unfortunately they are part of the Federal Government and that makes them inherently dysfunctional. You can mainly thank career civil service employees who care more about their month off (courtesy of their federal union) than they do about servicing our wounded troops.

Our civilian health care system desperately needs a free market approach including payment reform for primary care, standardized national insurance regulations, and the end to employer funded care. Patients should have information based tools to select the best health care facility and doctor for them and be empowered with the responsibility to pay for it out of their own pocket . When that happens, wasteful substandard care will go away. Have you ever been to a dermatologist's office who does both cosmetic (read self-pay) and regular insurance/Medicare dermatology? Guess which patient gets the more responsive office staff and spends more time with the doctor? Dealing with Medicare was instrumental in my decision to leave primary care after 21 years and is a big factor why only 2% of this year's Internal Medicine graduates indicated they would be primary care doctors.

When a person who voted for Obama talks about health care reform they really mean health care paid for by somebody else. Health care is of course a "right" and should be universally available and unlimited. If Obama has his way they will ultimately find it neither free, readily available, nor of the quality Americans have come to demand (and good luck finding an American trained doctor to treat you).

There is no free lunch with regards to freedom or health care!

Dolmance| 12.13.08 @ 8:13AM

There's nothing to say to recommend the health care system we have today. Business are being strangled, we're putting half out money into paying private insurers who are known to drop their customers in the middle of a serious illness because of an unreported yeast infection twenty years ago - we pay more than any people in the developed world and we get some of the worst treatment. Our infant mortality rate is exactly on par with the African country of Botswana. And to imagine the remnant of Republicans who have devolved into some kind of perverse cult is going to defy the will of the people this time around with a flurry of Harry and Louise commercials is ludicrous. We can't afford Republicans anymore.

Neal J. King| 12.13.08 @ 8:43AM

I'm currently living in Germany. The system is not single-payer, but it works nearly that way: You show your insurance card at the beginning of medical service, and in 5 minutes all the billing is over.

One way or another, EVERYONE has medical coverage - even the impoverished. (But most people are not impoverished.)

If the U.S. were to strive for the same level of treatment and coverage, that would be a good target.

John Denton| 12.13.08 @ 9:21AM

I'm a Vietnem era vet who recieves VA medical services. No complaints here. Not perfect, but then, not always angling for the almighty profit, either. They see a problem, they go after it. I would call it patient-centered care.

Would I have a problem with a health care system similar to the VAs? (With some improvements. Recall that Sen. John McCain voted against vets every time.) I'd have no problem with a system free of lobbyists, insurance company actuaries, and politicians.

Victor| 12.13.08 @ 9:28AM

I recently lost my job. I am currently without health care.
I've lost 140 pounds, without surgery I might add, but I'm almost 51 years old and still have high blood pressure.
My former company sent me COBRA information. COBRA is a joke! It's unaffordable at the time you're most vulnerable - when you can't afford it.
So, what will happen if I have an emergency? I go to the emergency room, get taken care of, and you, the taxpayer will pay for it - since I can't afford it. This cost's a Hell of a lot more than preventative health care - which I now can't afford.
Single payer? Where do I sign up?
Oh, and to really annoy the conservatives, that single payer ought to include dental care - one of the most overlooked aspects of bad health.

Socialized medecine? If you look at what we pay for health care and where we rank in the world, you'd want it too.
Since in this new era of the socialization of investment and banking, where profit's were/are privatized and losses are socialized, I fail to see where providing everyone with affordable health care is any different.
Anyone?

Victor| 12.13.08 @ 9:30AM

Ooops! Should read medicine...

Republicans rule| 12.13.08 @ 9:51AM

Leave our brilliant system as it is. Who cares if 6 million children don't have any health insurance. Only rich people deserve to be taken care of. It's the Republican way.

Gary Baumgarten| 12.13.08 @ 10:42AM

We'll be discussing Daschle's challenges at 5 PM New York time Tuesday December 23 on News Talk Online on Paltalk.com.

Please go to www.garybaumgarten.com and click on the Join The Show link to participate.

Thanks,

Gary

Geoff Wittig| 12.13.08 @ 10:46AM

You claim that " Obama and Daschle don't like to use words like "socialized medicine" and "government-run health care" because they are smart politicians who know that such ideas aren't popular in the United States."
Oh, really? Define "unpopular". Such a policy may indeed be unpopular with millionaire pundits and wealthy investors, but it is wildly popular with average working Americans. You need to get out more, Mr. Klein. In polls taken over the past year, a large majority of respondents consistently favor a national health care system something like that of Canada or England, over the flaming disaster that U.S. "healthcare" has become. When you add up uninsured Americans, underinsured working poor who have backbreaking copays and deductables and Medicaid patients in regions with no access to participating providers, the fraction of the U.S. population lacking any meaningful access to effective health care begins to approach 30% or more.

muldoon| 12.13.08 @ 11:32AM

As a U.S. citizen, a couple of times in the past few years I unexpectedly found myself in need of medical treatment while in Britian and in China. Quite frankly, the only difference I found in the care I received was the cost--free in Britian; $50 in China (about $400 yuan total for both doctor and meds); equivalent treatment in U.S.:$3,500.

Richard| 12.13.08 @ 11:49AM

Single Payer = Population Control
In Britain and Canada, by the time they diagnose your colon cancer, you can't be cured. Everyone who is sick will be waiting in line. When you get to the front of the line, some government person tells you what you get? Sounds like population control to me.

The fountain of life.| 12.13.08 @ 12:20PM

People check out BUSH NAZI PAST, google it find out about yur future and your country and your leaders. You have a right to know.

burt| 12.13.08 @ 12:37PM

Spare us the phony stories about dying children not getting care and phony miltary care stories! You vile leftist have no shame.
Its a federal law that no one can be denied emergency care and no licenses physician or hospital would let a child go untreated and every hospital has charity care provisions so medical bills are heavily discounted or waived in most cases ! SO please STOP with the fifhty lies . For all the radical leftist who said that had military care and its as a great example of gov't run services. YOU village idiots ,the military insurance is subcontracted to outside insurance carriers and you would have known that if you were really in the military . So, more radical leftist spreading lies and propaganda !
Why the hell do Canadians and the Brits, and French come here to get treated ! The Florida hospitals are packed full of foreigners getting so called Emergency care in the states becuase they can not get into see a lousy doctor or specialist in there nightmare socialized medicine system.
By the way, Ireland is unloading its socialized medicine nightmare for a free market system !
Please stop peddling lies and propaganda about the US system and be grateful your not really sick in England or France or Germany !

Brian| 12.13.08 @ 12:55PM

For every personal anecdote about how waiting for a coronary bypass could've killed a man in Canada, there's another who couldn't afford a coronary bypass and was killed in the US. Of course these guys don't make it on the Internet because they're dead so the Internet is full of people with their "wise man's warning" against single payer.

Instead of anecdotes, how about facts; there's millions of uninsured Americans, and the richest nation in the world can afford to insure them. The only objection I ever hear to this is the "personal responsibility" theme that people ought to take responsibility for their own health. That is true to a certain point, but take personal responsibility for cancer? Come on. Not to mention that health is best dealt with as a collective responsibility, for example vaccines, rather than a personal responsibility.

As for the VA surgeon's post, he does not seem aware that in a single payer system physicians do not need to be government employees but can be private practitioners who bill the government, such as in Canada.

He also does not seem aware of the meaning of economy of scale. This is rather ironic, because the military exists due to this principle: many people pay a small amount of tax dollars to fund the most powerful military on the planet, rather than forced to hire security contractors and private firms for their safety. The cost of excellent healthcare when sick, just like an excellent military when at war, is generally beyond the means of any single consumer and therefore should be a collective responsibility. The proof is many individuals like Victor going bankrupt to save or keep healthy their family members. This is not a personal anecdote, but statistics: *one million* families like Victor's ruined each year by medical bankruptcy or illness.

Capitalism works well for Plasma TVs, computers and furniture. It fails for healthcare.

Chrisfs| 12.13.08 @ 1:00PM

"Its a federal law that no one can be denied emergency care and no licenses physician or hospital would let a child go untreated and every hospital has charity care provisions so medical bills are heavily discounted or waived in most cases "
So why are medical costs one of the biggest causes of bankruptcy in the US?
Every person who uses the emergency room as a last resort because they couldn't afford medical care otherwise, those costs, if they can't pay, come out of my and YOUR tax dollars. It's cheaper to pay for preventative care, then to pay for the emergency room visit that happens otherwise.
My aunt lives in Germany and gets great care. In fact, pretty much every industrialized country in the world has some form of socialized medicine, except the US, and she could have gone to the US but never considered it, because the meidcal care is just as good if not better.

burt| 12.13.08 @ 1:08PM

I see the Obama internet m monitoring team has not been disbanded . I love how radical leftist who have never seen or lived under the nightmare socialized medicine system seem to be the experts on how great they are.
Have you ever had relative have to go to the US and pay cash to get treated for cancer because of the waiting line for a specialist in Canada or Britain?
You have no choice in doctors or hospitals or treatment plans . Big brothe has decided for you !
Do you realize that all European countries now have private hospital systems where the mostly elites and some regular people have to pay private insurance and then massive taxes on top of it . I love all these phony stories about 40 millions of uninsured , guess what 2/3 are here illegally. I suggest that these clueless radical leftist peddling Big Brother healtcare dogma on us go live and actually pay the taxes and wait in the lines for doctors and visits the run down hospitals in Canada and overseas before they force there radical doctrine on the rest of us!
Then come back here and find out how great out system is and why millions of foreigners and illegal take advantage of it on a daily basis!

burt| 12.13.08 @ 1:18PM

Stop peddling phony stories from the DNC and the Obama media about bankrupt families. Does the phony aunt have private insurance too and go the one of the private hospitals in Germany or France or Switzerland that exist now thanks to deregulation of healthcare under the EU laws?
Europe has deregulated healthcare but the Obama radical left wants destroy our great system so they can take more control over our Lives ! Its all about the leftist like the one posting here want more control over everyone day to day life to foster dependence on Big Brother Goverment !
I have done heathcare consulting work in Europe and I know the reality there .
Everyone with connections or money or even the illegals goes to the US for medical treatment !

Osamas Pajamas| 12.13.08 @ 2:48PM

Given the long history of socialism's failures on every front, you'd think that conservatives and libertarians would by now have pointed out that the Democrats are trying to hijack the health insurance issue from the free-marketeers. In what alternate universe is it plausible that the predatory humanitarians of the Democrat party can ever offer a better alternative than a free-market system? Duh?! If we get stuck with socialized / single-payer / universal healthcare, don't blame the Democrats ---- they're just being their usual, lying, hijacking selves. Blame conservatives and libertarians for not driving a wooden stake thru the heart of the idea, and indeed, through the heart of the Democrat party. The future, if America is to have one worthy of the name, is a two-way debate between the Republicans and the libertarians --- with the Democrats on the periphery, robbing liquor stores and bashing old ladies for their purses, policies that can be dealt with in summary fashion, at the street level.,,,,

Brian| 12.13.08 @ 4:12PM

Every time there's a discussion about healthcare it revolves around America's world-class healthcare versus millions of uninsured.

But the conservative argument has a glaring weakness. The strength of America's healthcare system isn't because it's free market. It's because America has the world's best universities, training the best doctors in the world. Sure you can get a coronary whenever you want if you've got the money in America, but it was that *leftist* professor in college and the *leftist* support for education (scholarships, student loans) that makes sure he's competent and has the training.

Conservatives like taking all the credit and none of the blame. America's medical innovation according to them is due to the free market and competing forces, not colleges and government grants. If it were up to the pharmaceutical companies completely they would do no research on antibiotics at all and dump everything into Viagara and other useless drugs with high profit margins.

Victor| 12.13.08 @ 7:31PM

Burt,
Sweet Jesus!
Take a #@*&!^$ valium! Or, can't you afford to due to lack of medical coverage?
Keep on reading those good old conservative talking points.
Do you see the mess this country is in now? Who's to blame? Democrat's? We haven't been in any position of power for anything except the last few years. Yeah, we did as much damage in the last 2 years as you have in the last 28....
It's people like you, who listen to Rush and Hannity, who are ignorant. I'm not saying stupid. Just ignorant.
It's not "WE" Liberal's who've gotten us into this mess; it's you, "Conservative's," who've driven us over the cliff.
When you can admit that, you can join the reality-based community.
Until then, keep on ranting. It's entertaining for those of us who are rational.
I don't want to insult real clown's, but, Burt, your putty nose is showing. :-)

James Hovland| 12.13.08 @ 9:12PM

The 'United States National Health Insurance Act' is still surging in popularity, standing out as an obvious favorite. With over 90 co-sponsors and wide spread public appeal, this is the bill people are talking about. Check out a few questions and answers.

Who will be eligible for health care coverage?

All Americans will be eligible for health care coverage. Every person who enrolls in the program receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and individual ID number, and that is all anyone will need to receive care.

Will I be able to choose my doctor?

Yes. Patients will have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals and clinics. The financing will be public, but the providers will all remain private.

What health care services are covered?

The program will cover all medically-necessary services without charging co-pays or deductibles. The services covered will include: primary care; inpatient, outpatient and emergency hospital care; prescription drugs; durable medical equipment; hearing, dental and vision care; chiropractic treatment; mental health services; and long-term care.

What about "catastrophic" care? Will I ever reach a limit for coverage?

No. There are no limits on coverage. Just as you will never pay a co-pay or a deductible under the universal national health care program, you will never reach a ceiling on your coverage.

How will the transition to the new system work?

The full conversion will not take place overnight once the bill is passed. The total transition time will be roughly a 15-year period. Important elements of the transition will include:

Private health insurance companies will be prohibited from selling coverage that duplicates any benefits included in the universal national health care program. The private companies will, however, still be able to sell coverage for services that are not deemed medically necessary, such as many cosmetic surgery procedures.
Private insurance company workers who are displaced as a result of the transition will be the first to be hired and retained by the new single-payer entity. Any of the displaced workers who are not rehired will receive two years of unemployment benefits.

James Hovland| 12.13.08 @ 9:32PM

Here is an open challenge to any Republican out there.

Explain why we should continue paying insurance to fund lobbyists, political contributions, and anti-government propaganda.

In my opinion, these are corrupting influences in our political system not to mention a waste our health care dollars. Further more, being fully aware of the propaganda, I do not take any of the Republican's fear of the government arguments seriously.

The truth is, as Mel C. Thompson put it..
"CORPORATIONS are so bad a health care, that they make inefficient government look benevolent by comparison."

RetAf| 12.14.08 @ 1:02PM

WOW. I don't even know where to start. So many anecdotes and so little data.

I was struck (but not surprised) by the hand grenades thrown at military medicine. And yes, I am a military physician assistant and I can give plenty of examples of good and bad experiences in military medicine. The military system is setup to rapidly traige and treat battlefield casualties. Over the years beneficiaries came to expect the system to treat chronic illness such as diabetes and heart disease but its not designed to. Military hospitals don't have cardiologists or cath labs for example, and very few even have 24 hour ERs. So lets compare apples to apples.

Its hard for me to not respond to the attacks on mid-level health care practitioners leveled by one physician above. If he's going to indite the whole physician assistant career field when this forum is supposed to be addressing health care costs, I hope he remembers why the PA field came about in the 1960s -- to address a physisian shortage.

I could bore you with anecdotes of my own but thats irrelevant to this discussion. Obamas own health plan doesn't directly adress tort reform but dances around the issue, blaming insurance companies for high malpractice premiums. Since 80% of lawsuits are for "failure to diagnose", not medication errors or negligence, expensive diagnostic tests and invasive procedures are going to continue to be performed at an increased frequency.

Medicaid alone costs over 30 billion a month (3 times as much as the Iraq war) and only covers about 40 million beneficiaries, or less than 1/8 of the US population. Is that the "streamlined" process we can look forward to?

alphadoc| 12.14.08 @ 6:34PM

With the current system of Medicare reimbursement, surgeons are paid on average about $40-$50 per hour for a providing service--and this is before they pay their overhead that includes tens to hundreds of thousands of malpractice insurance yearly. The only reason docs can continue to operate at a loss on the state-funded cases is because they can make a margin of profit on the privately insured. Take them away and you have...no private practitioners!
All of you who wish to "simplify" and purify the system, realize that you will be killing the system that provides the best personnel, facilities and technology in the world. When I and many in my family sought to enter medicine it was a fiercely competitive field that attracted people who wanted to help others and to control their futures. With state-controlled medicine, the profession will offer neither incentive and will become merely a job for drones.

John| 12.14.08 @ 7:05PM

One even better.. I am a maxillofacial surgeon and I will either go entirely cash based or quit.. and there are already huge shortages with more to come... Be on call, away from my family.. and get paid nothing... I think not..

Doctors are now quitting hospitals in droves, retiring early and going cash only..

Socialized medicine will hasten this and patient access to care will drop like a rock. You can't just crank out physicians and surgeons.. it takes decades

Good luck to the free medicine crowd..

Bill Schumdlap| 12.14.08 @ 7:40PM

I notice that Tommy and Harry Reid wear the same style of eye wear that was preferred by Heinrich Himmler. Hmmmm.... coincidence?

Peter| 12.15.08 @ 12:52AM

Americans have long tradition to think just "black" or "white" that is the reason because Europeans see the American in a kind of curiosity way and we enjoy the simplistic discussion you start on this issue as on others. Conservatives throw the Canadian exemple (by the way a mediocre example) but they forget the rest of cases of Universal Health Care in the world where nobody lacks on health insuarance for though issues and we agree that because we have to cover the 100% of the population we can wait for minor problem, but what never I see on the American news is that talking about freedem of choice, is precisely the model of the European Union who gives more choices because it doesn't exclude that you can buy your private health isuarance besides you alwasy the opportunity to go to the publics sector if you see that you private insuarance give you unresonable prices for a medical procedute or simply you don't want to get a loan because a simple surgery costs you thousand of dollas. Which the role that goverment plays on this system? well the same role that national, state or local goverment plays on the fire department or police department. I don't see people complaining because the police or the fire deparment are goverment runned. Again, people this issue is out of discussion, there is not a medical study, international report of any serious and independent University that show that American private system offers the best and fair (even necessary) coverage for the average of Americans. That is probably the problem, that Americans just think about themselves they never will grow up as a unified country and society, just individuals, egoist people living in their "houses" and not thinking in terms of human rights and community.

tony| 12.15.08 @ 5:12PM

Peter:

Let me try to explain why Americans don't give a flying f--k what lily-livered Euroweenies such as yourself think about us or how we conduct our business. First off, just as a general theme, in the approximately 230 years since we established our own nation, we have blown past your tired, pathetic old continent at the speed of light. During that time, we've had to deal with two world wars on your continent, the second of which required us to save your asses from extinction.

After WWII, , we spent hundreds of billions of American taxpayer dollars defending you from Soviet aggression and asked for very little in return. When we ask for your help however, we get nothing but contempt. Screw you.

This country has shed blood and spent trillions liberating and defending people all around the world. How dare you question this country's commitment to human rights? What sissy country do you come from and what the hell has your puny little nation ever done for anyone? When millions were slaughtered in Rwanda, did you and your precious UN do single thing to prevent that outrage? No, you sat around and twiddled your thumbs. How typically European.

During the same time we were saving your's and every other European's asses, we continued to build upon the highest standard of living in the history, including the most advanced medical and pharmaceutical industries in the world.

Americans such as myself who oppose single-payer health care do so not because we are satisfied to have a certain segment of our population without health insurance. That view is the product of a sub-standard and dishonest intellect.

We oppose that type of system because it will lead to rationing of care and the elimination of services. It will also lead to the inevitable encroachment on our civil liverties, chiefly the fundamental right to privacy.

There are better ways to provide health care to the uninsured. The last thing this country ever needs to do is follow the model of a decadent continent that still doesn't recognize it's own internal decay. So spare us all the lecture and take care of your own house first.

Peter| 12.15.08 @ 6:17PM

Tony, first of all, thanks for you response. I appreciate your enthusiasm.

You are this kind of Americans that bought a extra dose of the "American dream" and you still don't know a little bit more of a few blocks from your house. You repeat this simplistics slogans that some extremist conservatism-spreadthehate-medias are ruining your country that somehow is mine because my wife and two of my children were born there, although fortunally we moved to a most civilized and fair society (Switzerland) where I come from and where I expect don't leave, although for me is always an anthropologican experience everytime that I have to visit your country regarding some familiar commitment (wife).

First of all, and you, my friend, the first advice that I going to give you (not a lecture) is to travel around and if it is possible to spend a few years on this decadent society (Europe) that I am not going to insist a lot, but regarding social and economical issues we are probably 2 centuries ahead, of course if we think in term of fairness and equaty. This two concept are not necessarily associated with socialism how some simplistic medias from United States try to induce and spread on the American mentality. This is simply called capitalism with a human face where not everything is allowed in the name of befenit and get rich as fast as possible.

Regarding the health care issue, please, save the ideological discurse of freedom and blah blah, because this is simply not true, precisely the combitation of a public system (for averagage Americans) and private system is the perfect combination that fits enteraly into this discurse of privacy and freedom of choice. Again, there is not a only report, scientist study or analysis that support your FOX-brainwashed-misinform comment about rationing care. The best examplle of rationing care is to have 100 milion Americans (uninsuared and low-unisured) that beside a primary medical procedure they don't have more option if they have a chronical or specialzed disease that go to church and pray. But even all this people that believe theye are fully cover for their fantastic health-insurance (coupon?) is to weak up from this dream when they discover that for procedure that in any other country (not just Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan=FIRST WORLD) is standard procedure, here you need a loan or even worse, to remortgage your house. If you simply agree with the current US health care system there is two explanations for that: you are simply an fanatic ignorant or you belong to this 5% of wealthy Americans interested to spread this idea that everybody can be like them, although is pretty obvious that for having rich people is necessary the rest of I call it, struggling-hard worker normal people. At least in Europe the richs agree that normal people deserve more than coupons to go to the doctor.

tony| 12.15.08 @ 9:28PM

Peter:

Aside from your arrogant condescension, which coming from you is laughably absurd, it is you are stuck in a simplistic mindset. First off, there were no simplistic slogans in my post, just a simplistic interpretation on your part. Typical of a leftist.

The idea that Europe is 2 centuries, let alone 2 minutes, ahead is choice. Yes, Europe is obsessed with the concept of equality but, like all good socialists, the result of your egalitarianism is to lower the standard of living until everyone is equally miserable. Just look at what has happened in France, where you have riots in the streets when someone proposes the novel concept that you should actually have to work to earn your pay and that failure to do so could mean the loss of your job.

As for all of your comments about being brainwashed, especially the "Fox" comment, you only expose yourself as someone incapable of an original thought. That's just a tired old line from someone who probably hasn't spent more than 30 seconds watching a Fox news broadcast.

Tell me my friend, what exactly do you know about things like medical savings accounts, which when tried have been proven to be very popularand cost effective? Do you even know what they are and how they work?

The problem with healthcare in this country IS the intrusion of the federal government, which places all sorts of mandates on providers and forces doctors to expend massive amounts of time and money on red tape. I know of what I speak because my brother is a doctor and we have had many discussions regarding this matter. It drives the costs up and limits the type of competition between doctors that would ultimately lead to lower costs without sacrificing quality.

Lastly, I find it hard to imagine you lived in this country, given your wretched grammar, which is a window into your intellectual capabilities. Learn how to write in proper English before you condescend to instruct me how and my fellow Americans how we should think and behave.

RetAF| 12.15.08 @ 11:34PM

Didn't doctors in Germany stage protests due to pay and working conditions a few years ago?

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1860368,00.html

I know what happens when government administrators control productivity. A quota is established and "x" number of patient needs to be seen daily or monthly. 20 minutes becomes 15 minutes then 10 minutes with patients; be it for a common cold or cancer.

When diagnostic studies are ordered to make sure nothing is missed, suddenly costs go up and administrators step in again. Limits are placed on MRI, CT, etc. But in cases of misdiagnosis it is not the administrator is held liable, but the practitioner.

In Germany, as in the US Medicaid program, prescription drug limits are imposed based on cost rather than effectiveness. Again, the practitioner is the one held liable. Its amazing how many patients have "adverse effects" when generic drugs are prescribed.

Europhiles are so quick to point out that Americans must embrace and respect all cultures - without respecting that American "gotta have my cut" culture is the problem with distributing commodoties such as healthcare. Blaming the evil free market system is inaccurate. I'm reminded of the JG Wentworth commerical on TV every hour for a service that will buy lawsuit settlements for immediate cash now: "Its my money and I want it now!".

Manyof their customers are likely malpractice plaintiffs.

peter| 12.16.08 @ 12:45AM

Well Tony I don't know how many languages you can write properly but this is my better English that I learned very quickly before I got my position at Basilea University Physic deparment long time ago, and I learn some of your language during a short stay at UT, Austin University in Texas where I collaborated on a exchange program. I didn't speak so much English on these 23 years.
Regarding your email and you economicist discussion about health care (why don't you point out the same argument to the HUGE national debt that every year taxpayers assume on weapon programs or simply why don't you concern about the "socialist" fire department or the "socialist "postal office? by the way, one of the few things that work pretty well in your country, I can not say the same for bridges, roads or street maintenance, in some states are in deplorable situation . If you really believe about this simplistic idea that everything ran for private companies is better than public , why don't you push forward with this gorgeous idea and privatize all the aspect of this society? I think that specially on these days where all this free market fundamentalism is being demolished for the nature the current events (Wall Street, Bank system, Nasdaq...) just ideologized extremist people like you that still support this this bizarre ideology (conservative libertarism) can defend a system that is showing up the worst of the human values (greed, egoism, anti-humanism...).
By the way, just to inform you that to defend a fair society where human values are more important than the quick fast benefit without any moral control, it doesn't classify me automatically as a socialist, in fact I believe on free market, private property, competition, balanced regulation (not anarcho capitalism that brang to the world this financial mess). Of course anything compare with your extremist right wing vision of the world is lefty, no doubt about that.
Again, my friend Tony, show data not big empty words. I think that more than ideas that never have been contrasted properly there is nothing, just that believes, the great mistake of your country, a conjunt of individual believers that "buy" everything that comes on the pack of the "conservatism" freak idealism. That is the reason because you guys are seen as a bizarre expression of something that it doesn't exist on the rest of the civilized world.

Tony| 12.16.08 @ 1:27AM

Peter:

All of that education and you still have such a limited grasp of things. But while you might have trouble with English grammar, you've certainly mastered all the left wing verbiage. Let's see: simplistic, ideologized extremist, bizarre ideology, anti-humanism (whatever the hell that means), extremist right wing and conservative freak idealism. That's an awful lot for 4 paragraphs, but then again your paragraphs are quite long.

You're just a waste of everyone's time because you don't understand this country and your sources of information are narrow and utterly predictable. You give yourself away when you pull out the old "bridges, roads or street maintenance, in some states are in deplorable situation" baloney. Take it from someone who actually lives over here and drives on those roads and bridges; things are fine.

You also display your utter ignorance when you talk about the "socialist fire departments" and "socialist post office." There is nothing socialist about a fire department, which is run on the local level. In fact, a fire department is a perfect example of how our founding fathers envisioned government, run on the local level to serve local needs. The federal government has nothing at all to do with fire departments. Hence, they are not state run, hence they are not socialist.

The post office, an enterprise run by the federal government, is not necessarily known for its efficiency, which is something that anyone who actually lives here would know. So you have a perfect contrast between efficiently run fire departments controlled at the local level versus a federally run enterprise like the postal service, run inefficiently and at a high price.

Again you attempt to paint us as greedy and egotistical people, but that is just an ongoing example of your denial of history. Again, where would your puny little country be without the blood sacrifice of so many Americans, particularly when Hitler was knocking on your door. What would you have done without us, defended yourselves with those clever little multi-purpose knives.

In closing, there is nothing empty in my words, just your head. Your continent is dying right before your eyes but you refuse to see the truth. We have had worse problems in the past and have always come back stronger. The only thing that will prevent us from recovering is if we follow your tired, failed ideas of centralized control. As I previously pointed out, we've accomplished more in 230 years than you have in 2000. That's due to free markets and liberty, something that you and your fellow Euroweenies gave up on a long time ago.

Peter| 12.16.08 @ 10:34AM

Finally, I was waiting a few post to get this speech(you guys are like the little mouse and the cheese on the lab) Fire department is local provide (local goverment?)...through your taxes? here you have an exemple how you can provide efficient and fair health care controlled (that it doesn't mean goverment ran), the goverment my friend is the necessary referee that has to oversee that some essential human rights are not controlled for companies that are most interested deneying care to achieve more benefit, that is the truly drama of your country. You have a brother that is doctor, ask him what is the way how the American system is denying care, specialized care to patient ...I will tell you because I have this kind of example among my family in America, my brother in law, teacher in a high school, sport man, healthy until on day he discovered that he has a congenital hearth disease after collapsed working out at the gym, two surgeries and 76,000 dollars in debt because they second surgery wasn't covered although there was not option, it was a issue or death or alive. Now is relatively fine, but you know...he is just 10 month ahead to lose and special insuarance that the state of Texas provide for disable people, but after that, I think the only insurance he is going to have is called: pray to Jesus, nobody want to cover him. That is about nobody wants to talk and just the families that suffer it know pretty well. I hope the Lord didn't put you on this path, believe me, probably your patriotism, ignorant, simplistic knowledge of the world it will change.

tony| 12.16.08 @ 11:07AM

Peter:

Frankly, I'm getting bored. You utterly ignore what I write and just pound ahead. In the spirit of trying to get a response to something I've written, I will keep this one short.

Now here's my question. Why is it that yours is the default open-minded position, whereas mine is the "ignorant, simplistic" position. I'd like to see your explanation, because so far you've been full of assertion and well armed with the typical leftist talking points. Your really going to have to explain that why, contrary to all logic and common sense, government can do a better job with health care delivery.

peter| 12.16.08 @ 12:15PM

Tony, your brother is doctor ask him about this study made for a prestigious Economist from Princetown (there are thousand of the same resports, that is the reason because I told you that this topic is pretty clear, just the lobbies that want to perpetue this unefficient system spread not contrasted information for being "bought" for people like you, dogmatics: market vs socialized, black and white), read analyzed and get your own conclusion, don't let people think for your. The life is plenty of colours, in some topics you can be more opened-mind like Conservatives in Europe are, they believe on private enterprise, competition, balanced regulation of the markets, private property, but they think that not everybody have the chance to pay huge premium like they can to get health care. It is topic of intelligence, maybe evolution, you guys, Conservative Americans are in a previous stadium still thinking of medieval terms (if you don't belong to our class, just die)

A quote from the next article that you can constrast with your brother:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-ii-indefensible-administrative-costs/?scp=5&sq=WhyDoesU.S.HealthCareCostSoMuch?&st=cse

"One thing Americans do buy with this extra spending is an administrative overhead load that is huge by international standards. The McKinsey Global Institute estimated that excess spending on “health administration and insurance” accounted for as much as 21 percent of the estimated total excess spending ($477 billion in 2003). Brought forward, that 21 percent of excess spending on administration would amount to about $120 billion in 2006 and about $150 billion in 2008. It would have been more than enough to finance universal health insurance this year.

The McKinsey team estimated that about 85 percent of this excess administrative overhead can be attributed to the highly complex private health insurance system in the United States. Product design, underwriting and marketing account for about two-thirds of that total. The remaining 15 percent was attributed to public payers that are not saddled with the high cost of product design, medical underwriting and marketing, and that therefore spend a far smaller fraction of their total spending on administration."

You don't need to be an Economist or health care administrator expert to see that if a company has to maintain besides the core of its bussiness (health care) all these other issues (marketing, billing, commercial, customer service...), you necesarely are going to see all this job reflected in your bill.

Again, nothing to say if for your patriotism, blind narrow ideology doesn't let you to see more than 5 inches around you and you want to keep paying 10 times what in other countries do for less, that is your problem, but let at least that normal people experiment how confortable is to go to the doctor without the fear that they are going to suck all your blood until your last drop, and again, Universal Health Care, for third time, it doesn't mean you are going to lose your "patriotic" health care, private enterprise, blah blah health care.

Tony| 12.16.08 @ 12:35PM

Peter:

I'm not sure what "patriotic health care" means, nor do I know who your precious Princeton economist is or who Mckinsey Global is, but I wonder if any of these esteemed thinkers has any sort of ideological leanings, possibly towards the left. Is there anything in it for them.

Why do you have so much trouble responding to what I write. I asked you if you knew anything about medical savings accounts and you ignore the question. At least we've moved on from your vacuous comments about bridges, roads and fire departments.

Again, the cost of health care is directly attributable to bureaucratic red tape. Government does not foster competition, which is the fundamental basis for invention and keeping costs down. That's why your pathetic continent is in its death throes.

I know of no conservative who is against the idea of everyone having access to health care. If you could cite one example for me, I'd love to see it. So knock it off with your juvenile hatred of all things right of center. We breathe the same air as you, we just see things differently.

It is you sir who needs to open your mind to concepts of individual freedom and liberty, which are eroded when we allow government to run large portions of our lives and our economy. Because your mind is stuck in the past where people still believe in a socialist utopia, you will never understand this country and its greatness. But I wish you good luck in the future.

peter| 12.16.08 @ 12:39PM

Tony, I know is hard for you to assimilate that in other countries we are doing much better in many issue (normal, is for you chronical disease, patriotism), but read the post of normal people, some Americans living abroad on this forum and you will see real cases of how it works the Single Payer system, don't let that conservatives medias manufacture the information you get, think smart, with data, not with willy-nilly, inconsistent, bizarre, third world ideology (Reeganism, famous actor by the way). Believe is not but to read and contrast real experience, ah! and it is also not bad to support intelligent people that work hard (Universities, professionals, Novel Prices, Intellectuals...) that bring us some light not just for this issue, in general for any issue of our lifes.

peter| 12.16.08 @ 12:54PM

"Again, the cost of health care is directly attributable to bureaucratic red tape. Government does not foster competition, which is the fundamental basis for invention and keeping costs down. That's why your pathetic continent is in its death throes"

You are answering yourself...right now how many private health care providers there are in the States? thousands probably, what about the costs?

Typical answer from a dogmatic: I believe my "principles" it doesn't matter if any step we do demostrate that is wrong, I am going to stigmatized someone as a "leftty" in terms of avoid rational discussion, and just for this reason is wrong, it doesn't matter what he is saying or what the datas are.

Again, and again, ideology, stereotypes for 5 years old kids that people repeat...what a waste of time arguing with an dogmatic.

Savings accounts:

"In testimony before the U.S. Senate Finance Committee's Subcommittee on Health in 2006, Commonwealth Fund Assistant Vice President Sara R. Collins, Ph.D., said that all evidence to date shows that health savings accounts and high-deductible health plans worsen, rather than improve, the U.S. health system's problems" (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=405167). It seems that for some people, again the 5% percent of wealthy Americans, love this system, I guess your idea is that for the rest f*** you. right?

Please, don't be simplistic, travel to Europe and walk on the streets and maybe you will change your Fox perception of the Socialist Europe. As a NY friend told walking with me on a vacation trip for cities like Barcelona, Paris or Rome, if this is Socialism...I am Socialist! (he is mostly Repbulican).

peter| 12.16.08 @ 1:06PM

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/01/stiglitz200901

This man is a Nobel Price ( of course not big deal according your automatical way to classify people regarding the ideology), too much complicated for your narrow mind, probably.

Mel C. Thompson| 12.17.08 @ 6:32PM

The VA:

Yes, the VA screws up all the time, true, and some of the hospitals are a mess, true. Again, so? So what? Compared to what? What you don't get is that I have several relatives who get free care from them. I have a low-income uncle who gets tons of good care from them. True, they mess up sometimes. However, just ask any vet if he loves Kaiser. Have you done that? Remember, most people don't get private pay. They get Kaiser? Do you like Kaiser?

Everyone I know who had Kaiser, but also VA care, ended up having to go back to the VA because HMOs are worse. Again CORPORATE! CORPORATE medicine is ten times worse than the government. For one thing, if you get bad VA healthcare, YOU HAVE REAL APPEALS. At Kaiser, you have an HMO HACK, an empty soulless suit who will simply ignore your pleas. I've known people to argue with the VA, and work a few political phone calls, and get the situation turned around. I've never known anyone who could squeeze a dime out of the INHUMAN, HMOs. (Okay, if you actually get the news to send a camera over there, then finally an HMO will actually do work.)

Remember, without government health care, YOU GET HMO care. No one ever tells me, "Man, I used to have really horrid government doctors, but thank God now I have a Kaiser doctor." No one ever, ever says that.

The talking-point conservatives who keep evading this point, (half of whom have stocks in big pharma or are too healthy to need tons of care and enjoy the cheapness of HMOs because this keeps them from having to share), never come out and say HMO. They never say it. They say things like "private doctor," as though anyone but the upper-middle class or people who have rich people helping them, even get private doctors. HMO doctors are not really real private-pay doctors. They are working under a satanic, demonic medical director who should have his medical license taken away and be send to prison. HMO doctors are under constraints that not even county doctors could imagine. County doctors are pressured to lie and fudge and under-diagnose, HMO doctors are all but ordered to withhold information. They spend their days lying to the chronically ill, making sure they never find out about great treatments available.

Besides, the reason the VA and County Medical clinics are as a bad as they are is because HMOs, greedy, evil HMOs, (use the word HMO and Corporate instead of "the current system" or "private doctors), are sucking up all the money AND NOT DELIVERING HEALTH CARE.

HMOs ruined me in ways that no government medical care system has. And also, the government could deliver better health care if THE HMOs weren't stealing all that money through FRUAD, billing FRAUD.

Remember, HMOs are STEALING. They're writing that they care for people for a certain amount of time, and then they don't. What they do is blow into a room like a hurricane, take a fast note or two so that they can BILL, BILL, BILL and then blow out, usually lying or under-diagnosing in order to make the treatment and the appointment fast, fast, fast, so they can bill the employer, bill medicare, bill medicaid, and STEAL THAT MONEY having virtually done nothing but just rushed into a room, and then, interrupting the patient, rushed out. HMOs are FRAUDS. They're not just inefficient. They're not just under-funded. They're THIEVES.

VA is inept. County Medical is inept. HMOs are RAW EVIL. Remember, if you get so called private insurance, YOU GET AN HMO, not a "private" doctor. Remember that.

peter| 12.17.08 @ 8:38PM

The problem is not the effiency private versus public that ceirtanly I am pretty sure that there excellent private hospitals and doctor in United States with good technology and good practice, this is not the point, the point is if that system provide the necessary and affordable health care for the major part of the population of the United States, this is the point and it is a good exercise of egoism to think that your personal situation is a good example to apply on a system that is totally broken since is not answering about the needs of the middle class in the country. There is two classes of conservatives, those that support this simple just simply because they have not any interest on the community, they are fine, so f*** the rest. This people is not the problem because they represent a very small portion of the society, we have this people also in Europe, the problem is when middle, and low middle class support this system against their own interests just because in a very intelligent way some GOP strategist include this issue on the "conservative pack", it means, patriotism, religion, tradition and similar, so until all this people don't wake up and discover that they simply pawns of a huge strategy of big interests and profit, this problem is going to be very difficult to find a solution.
I think almost each American knows a outrageous case of abuse from HMO and how they are sistematically deniying care (like my brother in law) in terms of profit. That is simply unacceptable and somehow I can understand to some Americans that they don't have faith about goverment, in US it seems is only a kind of entitoy to get money from taxes and not legislate to support the normal people, so goverment for the people at all.

James Hovland| 12.19.08 @ 12:51AM

Tony,
Capitalism is only part of our system, and the majority of the people are not interested in a Capitalist take over. Our strength comes from having a free democracy and the flexibility to pursue the best regardless of labeling.

Free market hospitals and doctors are the ones making the advancements noted as a benefit of Capitalism. Insurance is a middleman where Socialism is is flat outperforming Capitalism in efficiency and performance. Our Medical system is the best in the world, our insurance sucks.

For the same price, Free Market hospitals and doctors would have 30% more funding in a Single Payer system. That's 30% more Capitalist go-juice where Medical advancement actually occurs. This is the smart thing to do, and fiscally conservative to boot. Still soul-searching?

If you don't trust your government, get involved. When we say that this is a government "of the people", that part is a direct invitation to you. You can even be our president. That's America, the rest is just flavor.

I was promised a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. That us, the big we, you know, you and I teamed up with the rest of us.

The insurance industry is costing us an arm and a leg, sometimes literally. We can pay less in taxes than we do for premiums, and stipulate that all our money is used for health care. But we the people have to make a stand against the corruption.

We have to raise our voices and provide accountability everywhere it is needed. Too many of our politicians are bought and paid for to remain quiet and expect anything to go right.

Lobbyists, political contributions and anti-government propaganda make it hard to trust your government. Really really hard if you can't see the corruption and you believe the propaganda.

It's not about opposing parties or their ideologies, it's about smart business and securing the peoples best interests in a Democracy.

James Hovland, a product of freedom

James Hovland| 12.19.08 @ 1:53AM

Peter,
Thanks for adding your perspective, well said and regardless of what Tony thinks your voice is appreciated by millions of Americans.

Imagine what the British or French system would be like if they spent what America does. Now imagine being an American, understanding that, and being stuck in this political disaster called a two party system, while they debate insurance mandates. Keep writing, we need all the help we can get.

James Hovland, a product of freedom

peter| 12.21.08 @ 1:33PM

It is difficult to discuss with people (Tony) that are market fundamentalist and they can have a rational idea base in facts or data, if you don't fit into their vision of the world, you are a liberal and automatically are desqualifed, that is simply unacceptable and controry to any sense. I don't know if I am liberal, socialista, conservative or what, I am an individual that read and trust more the people that from the humble spot of study and analysis and knowledge about event and situation, they give us reason not just thing to believe, and on this issue, the health care the situation is so extrem to let this issue on this radical hands anymore. It is hard to believe with all this economical crisis we are experiment that still there are some people that embrance the idea that capitalism without regulation is the panacea (maybe for him) but at all for the major part of people. Capitalism is right now the best way of prosperity, no doubt about that, but to put into kind of casino roulett of the market something as essential as your health it is simply a monstrous idea, specially comming from the first economical potence of the world. Tony is the kind of people that only weak up when they experiment the wildness of this philosophy in the our skin (they fall on bankruptcy or struggle to pay their premiums after being "relocated" as high risk patient), before that they only repeat this simplistic ideas of competition, patriotism and free market that can play a role on this issue but at all can be taken as dogmas. Too much market fundamentalism on some American mentalities.

Mel C. Thompson| 12.23.08 @ 8:58PM

But It Wasn't An HMO That Saved Your Life

True, in some single-payer systems, a person may die waiting for treatment. They "might." Whereas with and HMO, they WILL. You see, left to the HMOs I was essentially untreated, misdiagnoses and left for dead. True, in a public health system, some people would fare worse than when they had HIGH-END PRIVATE-PAY NON-HMO doctors. However, understnad, MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET PRIVATE-PAY, NON-HMO doctors. That message needs to sink in hard. The "private doctor" in America who saves your life DOES NOT WORK FOR AN HMO, and most of us get stuck with HMOs.

So the fraud on the right, in terms of their anti-Canadian and anti-British leanings on health care is this: THEY FAKE LIKE THEY DON'T KNOW THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE FORCED INTO HMOs. Stop faking like you don't know that most Americans are forced into HMOs.

So the fraud that right wingers commit is this: They get PRIVATE-PAY REAL INSURANCE WITH NON-HMO doctors. Remember, the vast majority of us will never, ever see such a doctor. Then they, in bad faith, knowing they're lying, compare a FREE HEALTH SYSTEM DOCTOR to an ELITE PRIVATE PAY DOCTOR in the US, not mentioning that MOST AMERICANS WON'T EVER GET TO SEE A REAL DOCTOR LIKE THEY DID.

So, to be clear, an HMO will let you day way more frequently than a Canadian or British health system doctor. So again, Right Wingers compare apples and oranges. They compare their elite private doctors, doctors that most new workers will never see in their lives, with free health care doctors.

Again, it's true, your best chance for survival is to BE RICH AND BE ABLE TO AFFORD PRIVATE PAY, true, true, that is nicer than single-payer FOR THE RICH PERSON OR LUCKY PERSON WITH THAT KIND OF MONEY OR THAT KIND OF PREMIUM INSURANCE. But what they pretend not to know is that rather than a 4 to 6 week, or even 4 to 6 month wait, like in single-payer, most HMO patients will actually be lied to, misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed and die having had a wait that was FOREVER. Again, the plan HMOs had for me was to NEVER ADMIT my true condition and then NEVER, EVER, EVER treat it. Never. NEVER.

So NEVER, as the old pop song says, is a really, really long time. It is ETERNITY. So, you see, a four week or four month wait is a problem and could even, might even, could possibly, result in a fatality. HMOs won't possibly produce fatalities, THEY REALLY DO PRODUCE THOUSANDS EVERY DAY. not in rare cases, or unusual cases.

Here is my challenge. Will any of these right wingers come out and sing, sing it right now, sing praise for a specific HMO if you had a complicated, chronic problem. Please tell us, for instance, how deeply you love Kaiser. Tell us right now, say it, say that you love Kaiser.

Remember, in Northern California, most huge employers don't give you private-pay doctors. Remember, in Northern California YOU ARE FORCED ON KAISER. KAISER.

Now I've been to free clinics, county clinics and all kinds of government and charitable things running on no budget or a tiny budget or even in the midst of free-fall bankruptcy, and still I never got worse care than HMOs. Just yesterday I went to a free clinic that is surviving on all interns, and college student volunteers. And I mean literally no first year nursing student with even a biology class under her belt ever failed to be TEN TIMES more thorough than the most experienced KAISER doctor.

So yes, if you are able to form a special relationship with a private pay doctor who is not being controlled by an HMO medical director, I'll admit you get the best healthcare on earth here. PROBLEM: Almost none of us will ever have a chance to see one of those doctors. We'll be stuck on HMOs, and literally, being utterly uninsured has proved way, way safer. Trust me, if you end up in a car accident, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CAUGHT WITH AN HMO insurance card in your wallet, because the HMO emergency room is where they'll take you, and you will be let to die there. Way, way safter to be uninsured and taken to a UC teaching hospital which, while having tons of problems, will actually try to save your life.

People lucky enough to have real private doctors are living in a kind of Disneyland unreality where they imagine in their heads that most people can see the doctors they do. THAT IS A DELUSIONS. The rest of us get CORPORATE MEDICINE.

So we get the unhappy Canadians and British. Well, think about this. NOT FOR THE RICH OR THE LUCKY, but for the average person in Canada and England: WHY HAVEN'T THE MASSES RISEN UP AND PLEADED FOR CORPORATE MEDICINE? If CORPORATE MEDICINE is so good, why aren't the masses begging for it. No place with socialized medicine ever votes to go back to our third world, classist system.

The people we get here are refugees, usually with money or connections, who didn't get the privileges they get here. Here they get the world's best private pay doctors. And then they claim that this applies to everyone. WRONG. It only applies to people who can get private-pay doctors, not to us. REMEMBER, YOU WILL BE FORCED ONTO KAISER. YOU WILL NOT GET A PRIVATE DOCTOR like the Republicans who posted their private-pay private doctor success stories.

That's why single-payer is inevitable, because people are going to catch on that the private doctors their parents got AREN'T AVAILABLE TO THEM AND NEVER WILL BE. The Canadian or British trust fund baby posing as middle class will pretend that all of us can get the doctors he gets here. Then he parades around claiming American medicine saved his life. NO! Private pay, private doctors that THE REST OF US WILL NEVER GET, saved his life.

So you still never answered the question of who will save the lives of all of us FORCED ONTO KAISER, WHICH IS MOST OF US. Don't you get it yet? Your doctor doesn't count. He's high end. I'm talking about what the rest of us get, CORPORATE HMO HACKS!

me| 12.27.08 @ 11:53PM

IT IS SHAMEFUL WHEN A PERSON HAS TO GO THROUGH SUCH LENGTHS JUST TO GET HELP WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO READ THIS IF THEY DO, HAVE NO PROBLEM ABOUT WORRYING ABOUT HEALTH CARE. I AM JUST ASKING FOR HELP IN FINDING OUT WHY I STAY SICK, I HAVE TAKEN PENICILLIN 3 TIMES, CIPPRO, AND JUST FINISHED THE AVELOX 400 MGS 1 PILL FOR 10 DAYS, GUESS WHAT ?--STILL SICK! NONE WORK. JUST FINISHED THE CELEXA AND WILL NOT CONTINUE ON ANY MORE.
THIS IS WHERE OUR PARISH WOULD RATHER SPEND THE MONEY. Last week the Calcasieu Police Jury agreed to buy an 11 story building on Lakeshore Drive to be used for office space and parking by the District Attorney's office and nearby courts. The cost was nearly $5 million. It was purchased from an investment group that paid around $3 million for the site just a few weeks earlier.
Do you approve of Calcasieu Parish government purchasing the 11 story "white building" from a local investment group for just over 1.5 million dollars more than the group paid for it a few weeks ago?
IS THIS WHAT THEY WOULD RATHER SPEND THE MONEY ON, DESK SPACE AND PARKING?

""JUST DENIED AGAIN FOR THE THIRD TIME FOR SSIDI IN LOUISIANA. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON THE GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA."" LOOKS SO SHAMEFUL ON THE GOVERNOR'S PART, I SENT E-MAIL AFTER E-MAIL CONCERNING MY HEALTH PROBLEMS, EVEN A COPY OF THE E-MAIL SENT TO ME FROM THE FDA ABOUT ALL THE MEDICATIONS I AM ON, OH, BY THE WAY, STILL SICK!YES, I RECIEVED HIS LETTER OR WELL THE OFFICE'S LETTER LETTING ME KNOW THAT THE DHH WOULD BE CONTACTING ME IN REGARDS TO GETTING HELP. WELL GUESS WHAT,,YEP, NO SUPRISE, EVERYTHING THAT THEY RECOMMENDED DOING OR CONTACTING OR GOING THROUGH, I ALREADY AM, WHY DO YOU THINK I AM STILL TRYING TO GET HELP? SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON THE GOVERNOR, HE PROMISED TO GET BETTER HEALTH CARE FOR THE PEOPLE OF LOUISIANA. I HAVEN'T GOTTEN YET.
SULPHUR,LA 70663
---READ ALL---READ ALL---READ ALL---READ ALL---
VERY LONG E-MAIL---VERY LONG E-MAIL---VERY LONG E-MAIL---

PLEASE IF YOU HAVE A HEART OR IF YOU CARE PLEASE READ THIS. !!!!!!!!!!READ ALL OF THIS---READ ALL OF THIS---READ ALL OF THIS---!!!!!!!!!!

IT IS VERY LONG, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO SIT AND READ ALL OF THIS. YOU ARE NOT GOING THROUGH WHAT I AM.

MS. WENDY IN BATON ROUGE RECOMMENDED THAT I STAY ON THE CELEXA AND START THE RELPAX WHEN IT COMES IN, DESPITE WHAT THE FDA SAYS.
Dear Ms.********:

Thank you for your inquiry to the Division of Drug Information at the
Food and Drug Administration.

You are correct, you are on quite a bit of medications. One of the
concerns that I have is that some of these medications have side
effects
that may increase some of you symptoms of depression, headache, and
drowsiness. Another issue that should be brought to the attention of
you doctor/pharmacist is that if you have an allergy to the drug
Imitrex, you may have some reaction to the Relpax.

Dilantin is a drug that is used to help control you from having
seizures, it's a drug that is considered to have a very narrow
therapeutic window, which means that the levels of the drug should be
monitored otherwise, if elevated or reduced, there is a increased
potential for a seizure to occur.

Neurontin is another medication to prevent seizures. However, it can
cause drowisiness. In addition, both Celexa and the hydrocodone that
you have been prescribe will cause additional drowsiness.

It is not recommended to take Celexa and Relpax at the same time, as it
may lead to what is referred to as serotoinin syndrome.

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE ALL OF THESE MEDICATIONS, AND BE TOLD GO HOME AND SLEEP OR AS SSI SAYS, GO BACK TO WORK, WHEN YOU HAVE 3 KIDS? WHY IS IT SO HARD TO JUST SAY ADMIT HER FOR 3-4 DAYS, DO ALL TESTS, ALL, AND INTRAVENOUS MEDICATIONS. HOW HARD IS THAT?
YOU COME PAY FOR ALL OF THIS. AND STILL PAY BILLS, BUY GROCERIES, AND AT THIS TIME TRY TO GET PRESENTS FOR YOUR KIDS WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE A JOB, AND YOUR BOYFRIEND IS WORKING OVER TIME TO TRY TO DO IT ALL. STILL BEING DENIED FOR ANY HELP. SAY BOYFRIEND MAKES TOO MUCH MONEY, WELL, I WONDER WHY, BUT YET THEY DO NOT WANT TO ADD UP ALL THE BILLS AND SUCH THAT THE MONEY GOES TO AND WHAT IS LEFT OVER. JUST HOW MUCH IS MADE A YEAR, NOT BROUGHT HOME.

32 yoa, epileptic since childhood, current medications on a"" DAILY BASIS "" , YES DAILY,
100mgs- dilantin - 2 pills 3 times daily-(600)
600mgs- neurontin -1 pill 3 times daily-(1800)
97.2mgs- phenebarb- 1 pill at bedtime
40mgs- celexa- 1 pill at bedtime (may break in half if too strong)-JUST FINISHED
ceron-dm syp- 1 teaspoon 2 times daily-JUST FINISHED
400mgs- avelox abc- 1 pill daily for 10 days-JUST FINISHED
7.5/500mgs- hydrocodone- 1OR 1 & 1/2 pill every 4-6 hours as needed for pain-THREW OUT
WAITING ON PHARMACY TO CONTACT ME AND LET ME KNOW WHEN THE LAST PRESCRIPTION HAS COME IN, HAD TO BE ORDERED, SOMETHING LIKE OR CALLED "" RELPAX "" FOR HEADACHES.
ALSO WAS ADVISED TO CONTINUE ON MUCINEX IF HELPS.
IS ALL OF THIS GOOD FOR MY BODY? I ALREADY GET SICK JUST WHEN THE WIND BLOWS. NOW, I AM HAVING LOWER ABDOMEN PAIN, ON THE RIGHT SIDE, CAN'T STOP HAVING TO GO PEE. AND PLEASE DO NOT JUST E-MAIL ME AND TELL ME TO CONSULT MY PHYSCIAN, I GO THROUGH OUR LOCAL LSU CHARITY HOSPITAY, AND THE ONLY WAY TO TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR IS TO JUST GO TO THE E.R., AND THEN HOPE THEY GIVE YOU AN EARLY APPOINTMENT, NOT ONE THAT IS 4 MONTHS AWAY, BECAUSE YOUR PCP ONLY SEES YOU EVERY 3 MONTHS. I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING.DON'T TELL ME TO CONTACT MY LOCAL SENATORS OR CONGRESSMEN IN MY DISTRICT!!!!!!!!!! I ALREADY HAVE!!!!!!!!!! NO HELP. I AM JUST SO READY TO BE ADMITTED INTO THE HOSPITAL AND GIVEN THE ANTIBIOTICS THROUGH AN I V STRAIGHT IN MY BLOOD STREAM AND GIVE ME PAIN MEDICATION SO I CAN FINALLY HAVE A GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP. SO WHAT IF THEY HAVE TO KEEP ME FOR A FEW DAYS AND RUN TESTS, BUT MAKE SURE THEY RUN PROPER TESTS. FIND OUT WHY THE SAME INFECTION KEEPS COMING BACK AND DESPITE ALL THE OTHER ANTIBIOTICS I HAVE ALREADY TAKEN, WHY HAVE THEY NOT WORKED? WHY DO I KEEP HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS ALL THE TIME AND CANNOT GET THE RIGHT HELP? SUPPOSEDLY MY CT AND MRI COME BACK NEGATIVE, BUT I AM NOT GETTING ANY BETTER. WHAT IS WRONG? WHY ARE THEY NOT TRYING HARDER TO FIND OUT?????????? WHAT IS WRONG?????????? WARNING: WARNING: WARNING:, THIS IS A LONG E-MAIL, PLEASE IF YOU CARE, READ ALL OF IT, IF NOT THEN DO LIKE THE REST WHO DOES'T CARE, SELFISH PEOPLE AND DELETE IT. i am just tired of begging congressmen, senators, charity hospital administrators, hospital social services, every one for help. because i do not have any insurance or medicaid, i have to go through charity hospitals, after spending over a week making phone calls and begging shreveprot charity to finally get the neurologist i was referred to look at my results, now they say i need to contact lafayette charity and talk with the ear, nose, and throat clinic whom i was also referred to, to check my information and see if i have an appointment yet, NOT UNTIL FEBRUARY 2009. it took finding and getting lucky the phone number of the chancellor's office at shreveport for someone to finally give me information. now, it is time to start fighting to get something done in lafayette. i am contacting you to see if you can help or know an ear, nose, and throat speacilist close by that is willing to and for the sake of the holidays, take on a charity case much needed free of charge, which will also and may boost his holiday and everyday business, or even getting in touch with the dean or chancellor at U M C LAFAYETTE, and they do have all my information and referral, to get me in this week, only 45 minute drive, i need to be seen, cannot continue on all these medications, and be an epilelptic person. please if you can help with keeping me out of the news or on tv, i WOULD SO MUCH BE SO VERY, VERY, VERY, GRATEFUL. HAVE ALREADY went to the e.r. , and they gave me a breathing treatment, morphine, and said i only had a cold and told me not to cough. sent me home with a prescription for hyrocodone 500 mgs. never did they treat the infection in my upper pallet of my mouth, which has been swollen and badly infected for well over a month FINALLY THE SWELLING WENT DOWN, BUT FOR HOW LONG, THE INFECTION ALWAYS COMES BACK. even my dentist has treated this before it was this bad 3 times, then i got an ear infection and my mouth swollen up again. since it has never been cured. my dentist said i need to see an EAR, NOSE, AND THROAT SPEACILIST, and so did the pcp doctor i see at our lsu w.o. moss regional charity hospital, in lake charles, la. he wrote a referral to go to lsu charity in lafayette, la, but now they say it might or could take up to 3 months before i am even seen. my goodness, now wonder people or so cautious to vote on an health care issues, while it may help the people in office, it does nothing for those who made the vote and need the help. i have more wrong with me than just a cold, and i cannot be doped upped 24-7. i am 32 yoa, and deserve a life, and deserve to enjoy that life with my family. why do people have to beg so much for help, when it is only 45 minutes away?????????? i have even begged them to just admit me until the e. n. t. can look and treat me, nothing. why??????????no, medicaid, they denied me, no SSIDI, this is the third time DENIED AGAIN, last two times denied, even though i received SSI from child hood into my 20's when they cut me off, yes, i am epileptic also. AS YOU SHOULD KNOW EPILEPSY HAS NO CURE. I AM TO THE POINT I WANT BACK PAY FOR CUTTING ME OFF, SO I CAN PAY THE E.R. MEDICAL BILLS THAT TOTAL TO MORE THAN OVER $8,000. I SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN CUT OFF OR DENIED.!!!!!!!!!! and please do not tell me or referr me to contact my senators or congressmen in my district, already have. i'm sure they know my name pretty good by now, as well as the epilepsy foundation of louisiana. i went to see my pcp doctor at moss regional in lake charles,la, and he didn't look at my mouth or my ears, we had a few arguments, me and him, he told me i had mood swings and needed to see a psychiatrist, told me to ignore the pain i have, don't think about it, don't take pain medications either, that is when i dropped my pants all the way to the floor and showed him all of my bruises on my legs and body, that i do not know how i got, he said i had to much estrogen, but when i said wrong answer, i had a partial hysterectomy almost 11 years ago, he then said, let me rephrase that, you have or might have low or high estrogen then. as a doctor, he should have looked at my medical chart RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM, and seen that i had a partial hysterectomy almost 11 years ago, before just blurting out a diagnoses, and then having to retract what he said. after arguing for awhile and many tears, trying to just walk out, but my mom stopped me, he then just wrote 3 more prescriptions, never looked at my mouth or ear or asked me about my neck pain. i had TWO filled for $5 and $6 the other 1 is sitting at the hospital pharmacy. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE MEDICAL SYSTEM?????????? EVEN MS. WENDY IN BATON ROUGE AT THE LSU CHARITY HOSPITAL THERE, CONTACTED THE HEAD NEUROLOGIST IN SHREVEPORT, DOCTOR KELLY, AND WAS TRYING TO GET AN E.N.T., AN APPOINTMENT FOR ME SOONER THAN ----MARCH OF 2009, BUT ALL SHE WAS ABLE TO ARRANGE, WAS IN JANUARY OF 2009 AT 8:00 A.M. CT, SO WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE HERE ABOUT 3:00 A.M., JUST TO GIVE TIME FOR TRAFFIC AND GETTING LOST. NO I WILL NOT BE CELEBRATING THE CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS, I AM SENDING MY KIDS TO THEIR DADS FOR THEIR 2 WEEK HOLIDAY VACATION, THEY WILL COME BACK AFTER CHRISTMAS. WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE TO SUFFER OR BE STRESSED OR WORRIED ABOUT ME. LET THEM HAVE SOME ENJOYMENT. I WILL I GUESS JUST HAVE TO SUFFER AND MANAGE. (((((MERRY, MERRY, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL), ISN'T THAT WHAT THE SAYING IS?????????? WELL, NOT FOR ME, AND MY BOYFRIEND, HE HAS WORKED ALMOST 80 HOURS IN ONE WEEK, TRYING TO GET A GOOD PAYCHECK TO MAKE SURE WE CAN PAY EVERYTHING. LAND TAXES WERE DUE ALMOST $600, BY DECEMBER 31,2008. RIGHT AT CHRISTMAS TIME. HOPE YA'LL ALL ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAYS, PRESENTS, WATCHING YOUR FAMILY LAUGH AND SMILE, WHILE YOU LAUGH AND SMILE AT THEM, I WILL BE SO DOPED UP ON MEDICATION, I WILL SLEEP FROM MORNING TO NIGHT, GET UP FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS, AND SLEEP AGAIN TILL MORNING.
--LOUISIANA HEALTH SYSTEMS AND SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEMS ARE GREEDY AND THEY SUCK. THEY SHOULD BE NAMED #1, #1, AS THE WORST STATE FOR HEALTH CARE, AND SOCIAL SECURITY. ---
I HAVE THREW OUT THE HYDROCODONE AND RAN OUT OF MUCINEX. ARE THEY TRYING TO KILL ME OR GET ME TO FILL MORE PRESCRIPTIONS SO THE STATE GETS A CUT, BECAUSE IT COMES FROM A CHARITY HOSPITAL? NOW I HAVE TO GET THE NEURONTIN FILLED IN 3 WEEKS FOR A 90 DAY SUPPLY AND THAT WILL BE ALMOST $200, AND THE phenobarb FILLED WHICH WILL BE ALMOST $15 AT THE SULPHUR,LA WALMART. WHY AM I NOT APPROVED FOR SSIDI WITH A DISABILATY THAT HAS NO CURE AND WHY DO I NOT GET MEDICAID? THIS STATE IS ""VERY, VERY, VERY, GREEDY, I SHOULD BE RECIEVING BOTH. NO MATTER WHAT MY BOYFRIEND GROSSES A YEAR, HE DOESN'T BRING ALL THAT HOME,AND THEY DO NOT ADD UP ALL THE BILLS, NEEDS, GROCIERIES, """""PRESCRIPTIONS""""", ETC....., EVEN THE DOCTOR WROTE A LETTER THAT SSIDI HAS A COPY OF SAYING I CANNOT WORK FULL TIME. !!!!!WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH LOUISIANA AND THE HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM????? CAN YOU TELL ME, LOAN ME YOUR INSURANCE, ADD ME TO YOUR POLICY!!!!!!!!!!
CAN'T TALK WITH DOCTOR HE IS IN CLINIC OR NURSES ARE WITH DOCTOR, OR PATIENTS. JUST TOLD GO TO E.R. some state we live in. boy i tell you. all this money for car companies, and buying buildings for better office space and parking, but none for the health of the people.
WHY IS IT THAT I WAS APPROVED FOR SSI FROM CHILD HOOD INTO MY 20'S AND THEN AT THE CUT OFF AGE I WAS STILL APPROVED? I HAD TO RE-APPLY EVERY YEAR, BUT I WAS APPROVED, UNTIL I STARTED GOING TO THE LSU MEDICAL CLINIC IN LAKE CHARLES,LA. EVEN MY OWN CASE WORKER, MR. CHARLIE ELLIS, FOR SSI, INFORMED ME THAT I WAS CUT OFF BECAUSE THE DOCTOR I WAS APPARENTLY SEEING, TOLD SSI THAT I WAS CURED. *****HELLO- THERE- IS - NO- CURE- FOR- EPILEPSY- *****

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