The American Spectator

Tim| 4.22.09 @ 3:16PM

Before an attack it's overeaction, after the attack we never connected the dots. You can't win.
Good luck President Obama.

Pete| 4.22.09 @ 3:25PM

President Bush won for 7 1/2 years after September 11, 2001. We won, too. Obumbler's going to need more than luck to keep this country safe--one attack and democrats are toast.

Scott| 4.22.09 @ 4:17PM

Hambali? Didn't Steven Hayes once do a story about how Hambali and his organization had received financial support in the past from Saddam Hussein?

Tim| 4.22.09 @ 4:21PM

Pete, that was sheer, dumb luck, like beating Gore and Kerry. Obama knows whats good for us, Just relax and breathe deep. All is well. ;)

Julia| 4.22.09 @ 4:27PM

Where's Nope the dope congratulating Klein on his independence, his fairness? Predictable liberal moron is nowhere to be found.

Lily| 4.22.09 @ 4:30PM

I've always thought that Hussein was behind a lot of terrorism. He financially rewarded the families of suicide bombers, too.

Freya| 4.22.09 @ 4:48PM

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Al Qaeda was going to try the same trick twice, after we increased security and after we had the example of the men and women of Flight 93? Any hijacking attempt with weapons they could smuggle in would have been doomed.

Mike| 4.22.09 @ 4:59PM

If someone has successfully attacked us and starts to do it again, to describe thwarting the second attempt at any point as "not thwarting", is idealogical semantics. We can't dismiss them, because they want to harm us again. To claim it is false to take credit because "it was done too soon" is purely idealogical and without professional merit. Anyone who would argue that point is being adversarial, not constructive or helpful.

Julia| 4.22.09 @ 5:17PM

It's naive to think this issue is not ideological-- the left has made it so. Why else would Obama release the files that described enhanced interrogation methods, and not the benefits that resulted from these methods? Leave it to disingenuous democrats. Cheney's calling for full disclosure; obviously, he's not afraid of what's in ALL of the files.

MT| 4.22.09 @ 5:24PM

Who said defending 'torture' is part of Conservative ideology? As a Conservative, I'm interested in the truth; liberals play the deception game.

in_awe| 4.22.09 @ 7:29PM

"Freya| 4.22.09 @ 4:48PM

Does it strike anyone else as odd that Al Qaeda was going to try the same trick twice, after we increased security and after we had the example of the men and women of Flight 93? Any hijacking attempt with weapons they could smuggle in would have been doomed."

R-i-i-i-g-h-t... all the weapons that STILL pass through airport security 8 years later when tested by DHS are flukes. Not considering the fact that non-passenger security measures are a joke when it comes to maintaining locked areas, background checks on maintenance staff, etc.

Geez, too bad Obama already got Napolitano to head DHS, you sound like a perfect candidate to execute his security policy.

PKane| 4.22.09 @ 8:36PM

Exactly, Julia. This is the heart of the problem of post-9-11 politics. The left has turned this into - not even an ideological issue - rather, a purely political issue. The idea that Bush or Cheney somehow like torture, or would authorize these tactics just for kicks makes constructive debate impossible.

Of course the question should be how best to protect the country. And we'd be a safer country today if the Democrats had acted as a loyal opposition. If that still meant opposing Bush at every turn, so be it. But the nonsensical hysteria from the left all to often made it necessary for conservatives to circle the wagon around Bush just to maintain any serious anti-terror policy.

For example, once we were already in Iraq, Democrats could have shifted their opposition to Bush's war strategy, rather then continuing the vicious, pointless attacks over going there in the first place. Had the country not been distracted by outright nonsense like Scooter Libby and Valerie Plame we could have focused on the conduct of the war itself.

MT| 4.22.09 @ 9:17PM

PKane, too bad Klein doesn't realize this. He thinks we support 'torture' for the hell of it. Conservatives really do want what is best for our country--Liberals want what is best for them. They are dishonorable narcissists.

Smitty| 4.22.09 @ 9:32PM

Where's Nope the dope? Still MIA?

RM| 4.23.09 @ 12:16AM

I honestly do not think that waterboarding is torture. It sounds scary, scary, scary, and incredibly uncomfortable for sure. But this is the thing - it does not seem to result in any lasting physical harm; it, along with lots of other icky stuff is done to US soldiers and sailors (the special forces types, anyway), to prepare them to resist those techniques; and it was not done, in KSM's case, apparently, for "kicks."

Ditto for sleep deprivation - I could not believe that one of the talking heads said that the definition of "torture" by sleep deprivation was when someone started to hallucinate.

OK - I and many, many friends of mine stayed up for two and three days straight during finals, and YES, I hallucinated. It was rather disconcerting, but I was still able to perform pretty well on the tests! I mean, really. So they don't get the coffee - does that mean they hallucinate later or sooner?

Look, if you determine to be a US special forces operative, a Navy SEAL, a Ranger, whatever - you prepare, mentally and physically in ways most of us will never, ever understand. You prepare to be roughly interrogated. Actual torture, like they do all over the jihad-world these days, is so grotesque that I wonder if anyone could prepare for it, except to pray that the end comes quickly.

Likewise, when you join up with the jihad, you must be prepared, mentally and physically for rough treatment at the hands of the "enemy" should you find yourself captive.

These techniques were not being used on political opposition, on random "civilians" just to see what they knew, or on young or very old people.

They were being used on people who had trained to be mass murderers and who very likely expected these techniques and had been trained to resist the techniques just like our guys are.

So in this context, it ain't torture. Just look at what our enemies do to their captives, if you have the stomach for it.

To call these techniques "torture" is to inflict grave insult on those who died at the hands of true sadists, who concoct ways to make people suffer beyond anything you can imagine. And do it in the name of some god.

And they would like nothing better, many of them, to subject the rest of the kuffar world to the same fate. Just look at how they treat innocent women and children who obstensibly are already "believers."

Now that's torture.

Nick in Virginia| 4.23.09 @ 1:58AM

Tim,

I pray to God (oops, can I still say that? Does it may me a religious fanatic, to be put on the DHS sh*tlist? Is Janet going to send her stormtroopers after me?) that you were being sarcastic. The little happy face at the end was a clue, but who knows, you could just be a happy (and clueless) 0bama supporter.

Nick in Virginia| 4.23.09 @ 2:05AM

And Freya,

Are you willing to bet your life (and the lives of thousands of others) that the jihadists would NOT try a similar approach, considering how well the first one worked? Remember Richard Reid, the shoe bomber? The only reason he failed was because he was Richard Reid, the INCOMPETENT shoe bomber.

Remember, when you have the responsibility for thousands (or, in Barry's case, millions) of lives, being pretty sure "they won't try THAT again" just doesn't cut it.

Angel| 4.23.09 @ 2:25AM

Yes, Tim was being sarcastic. He's aces. Freya is usually pretty cool, too. Interesting, though--the 'second wave' was going to be carried out by Indonesian Jihadists because they knew we'd be looking for Middle Eastern men. Rings true, friggin' monsters. My young daughter could have been killed that day--she worked near the Library Tower in downtown Los Angeles. Thank God for George W. Bush and the incredible bravery of all of our warriors: The CIA, NSA and the FBI, the attorneys and other government employees, and of course, our military. I am humbled by your nobility, and grateful for your sacrifices. God bless you all.

Dean| 4.23.09 @ 8:10AM

I believe this is the question we have to wrestle with on this issue: Is it better to perhaps go to far in our interrogations in order to prevent another attack, or are we willing to live with the risk and perhaps the subsequent consequences of not having gone far enough?

I prefer the former, rather than the latter. Imagine what things would be like in terms of civil liberties had another major attack occurred after 9/11.

JamesJ| 4.23.09 @ 9:29AM

Lord forgive me, but I wish the Bush Admin didn't waterboard those poor islamo-terrorists. There'd be a lot less loony liberals in Los Angeles right now

Lily| 4.23.09 @ 9:50AM

The Lord may forgive you, but on behalf of the decent people I love who work in Los Angeles, I won't. Moron.

Rational Thinker| 4.23.09 @ 12:31PM

RM- that's a nice explication that doesn't count for much because the Geneva Convention says it is torture. We executed Japanese soldiers for doing it. It's torture. All the operators I know who went through SERE never want it again. Second, nobody talks about what you can learn with drugs and electrodes implanted into the brain.

They have yet to come to interrogate the old, the infirm, gays, blacks, political conservatives, but you're on the list, I saw your name. I have put my life on the line for my principles and those of my country. They didn't include torture then and they don't now. Shame!

CH| 4.23.09 @ 1:43PM

You would have felt less shame if thousands of your fellow Americans had died hideous, needless deaths? Pretty worthless!!

MT| 4.23.09 @ 1:46PM

You would have felt less shame if thousands of your fellow Americans had died hideous, needless deaths? Pretty worthless!!

MT| 4.23.09 @ 1:52PM

You would have felt less shame if thousands of your fellow Americans had died hideous, needless deaths? Pretty worthless!!

kmichaels| 4.23.09 @ 4:00PM

Since I was the reader that had to correct Klein on his first post on this subject I feel the need to further correct him.

Klein is wondering how far along the plan would have been. As I pointed out in my earlier response the plan would have been 12 to 16 months along (most likely closer to 12). After 12 months of planning and having KSM money funded to them Hambali and his group were able to kill 400 plus people in the Bali attack.

So, using common sense, that is alot of time to get alot of planning done. But the real question is why is how much of the planning that they got done significant to you Philip? Are you saying that Bush cannot claim disrupting a plan unless the plan is nearly implemented? I find your logic and reasoning really quite backwards. If you ask most Americans, Philip, they would say that disrupting the plan earlier instead of later is a good thing.

You seem hell bent on minimizing the good that was accomplished by shutting Hambali down. You also failed to mention that it was the KSM information retrieved under waterboarding that led to the capture of Hambali that allowed this plan to be further disrupted.

Why dont you, Philip, just admit that you chose the wrong tact on this story and admit to the fact that we got some damn good information out of KSM.

kmichaels| 4.23.09 @ 4:16PM

Part two in my necessary correction of Philip Kleins weak rationale regarding this story.

Klein goes on and wonders about what damage we may have suffered by letting it be known that we torture.

Well, lets review the chain of events on this whole torture issue.

1) Who is it that wanted to make sure other nations thought that the USA was heavily involved in torture?

Answer1) It was the leftists and the leftist media that was hellbent on making it seem that the USA was less than well mannered in various circumstances. The hole naked Iraqis story was purposely overblown for political gain by the leftists. For how many months and years did we have to suffer the insufferable leftists and their MSM stooges trying to purposely denigrate the USA and its military?

2) Was what we did at Abu Garab and in interrogating the terrorists really torture?

Answer2) If so then the US military has tortured tens of thousands of its own citizens (including myself) in military training since pretty much every thing that happened there happened in training circumstances within the realm of training our own people.

And in all of those cases we military were taught from the start that the techniques being applied upon us by the USA were designed to give just a taste of what "real torture" would be like. So, as military people, we were told and we pretty much believed that these practices were not torture but instead events designed to give a small glimpse of what real torture would be like, in the event that we were ever captured.

You have to be a true 3rd grader to think that any of these things constitutes real torture.

But what has happened is that the truth has been tortured so that what is being said is so far from the truth and so far from reality that it can barely be recognized.

And the torturers of the truth are for the most part idiot leftist political w-hores that would just as soon damn and damage America than let the other party win an election.

Obamas release of this information was a clear and simple political stunt for the sake of his party and damned if he cared whether the USA would suffer from his actions.

In the same way that the leftists on MSM were more than pleased to degrade our image in the world during Iraq they are more than pleased to give out US secrets as long as they might gain a few more sucker votes.

Rational Thinker| 4.23.09 @ 5:51PM

The LA plot timeline is shaky. I'm not convinced that there were two plots as I'm not convinced KSM was still in the loop when he was grabbed. He did give up other people as did the Malaysians, but one plot or two, the important thing is they were broken up "before the fact." Part one of the memo released even says they can't show how imminent things were (it may have been my daughter's rabbits foot juju that prevented it- disprove the negative).

It's quite a piece of spin while sharing a lot of good information. Waterboarding KSM 183 times in a month probably affects the quality of what he says, if there is much of a brain left to say anything, and that doesn't fit the "technique was used sparingly" claim made in the memo.

The Armed Services Committee report now out shows the links of Gitmo, Ahbu Garib and Bagrahm with the CIA and Army using the enhanced techniques. In Afghanistan they say the techniques "caused or were direct contributing factors in the homicides of two detainees."
It's going to get pretty ugly as pretty ugly things have been done. I remain unconvinced that the information gleaned couldn't have been achieved through other means as many other interrogators successfully did, and I have the expertise upon which to make that claim. MSM is moving to show that the SERE approach was used to extort false confessions of an Iraq-AlQadea link to justify the war. The lid is off the septic tank, I'm afraid and the stench will cling to all.

Daisy| 4.25.09 @ 3:30PM

War is always ugly; if we did some ugly things to prevent more mass murders of American civilians--I don't care. 20/20 hindsight is easy, President Bush and his people protected us from terror. Tough nuggets.

Rational Thinker| 4.25.09 @ 4:50PM

As a child, my parents tried in vain to have me learn to play the piano from the nice lady down the street. In the summer heat when she would wear short a sleeved blouse, I could see the number tattooed on her arm.

Ten years later as a teenager, I worked for a man who was a good friend of my parents and went to school with his younger son. He had emigrated from Germany after the war and had fought in the German Army. One night his entire family disappeared and was never seen or heard of again. A few years later he was renditioned to Israel, was tried and convicted for “only following orders.” He was a very nice man, a good and generous employer. He was also a war criminal. We are not speaking of policy differences here. These are war crimes. So how low is your price to sell out your values or those of our nation? I've put mine on the line in real time, not in hindsight and with affirmation rather than regret.

Jdooley| 5.5.09 @ 1:47AM

Kmichaels is my hero. One of my friends stymied the case for coercion with this timeline discrepancy. Now I know what to tell him the next time it comes up.