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The Spectacle Blog
Brace yourself for a troll attack here at AmSpec Blog.
That’s because a medical expert concurs with my surprisingly controversial assertion that the Canadian government-run health care system helped contribute to the untimely passing of actress Natasha Richardson.
Writing in the New York Post, Dr. Cory Franklin argues that Canada’s government-run health care system may have been a contributing factor in the death of actress Natasha Richardson.
I wrote a few days ago that Richardson, after she received a head injury at a Quebec ski resort, received the same kind of treatment anyone in Quebec would have received, and now she’s dead at the age of 45 at least in part because Quebec didn’t have something as basic as a medical helicopter system.
Dr. Franklin points out that Canadian health care bureaucrats have to ration care and don’t authorize the purchase of much of the technology that is commonplace in the U.S.:
What would have happened at a US ski resort? It obviously depends on the location and facts, but according to a colleague who has worked at two major Colorado ski resorts, the same distance from Denver as Mt. Tremblant is from Montreal, things would likely have proceeded differently.
Assuming Richardson initially declined medical care here as well, once she did present to caregivers that she was suffering from a possible head trauma, she would’ve been immediately transported by air, weather permitting, and arrived in Denver in less than an hour.
If this weren’t possible, in both resorts she would’ve been seen within 15 minutes at a local facility with CT scanning and someone who could perform temporary drainage until transfer to a neurosurgeon was possible.
If she were conscious at 4 p.m., she’d most likely have been diagnosed and treated about that time, receiving care unavailable in the local Canadian hospital. She might’ve still died or suffered brain damage but her chances of surviving would have been much greater in the United States.
American medicine is often criticized for being too specialty-oriented, with hospitals “duplicating” too many services like CT scanners. This argument has merit, but those criticisms ignore cases where it is better to have resources and not need them than to need resources and not have them.
OK, trolls: We’re ready for you now.
View all comments (91) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by Matthew Vadum
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/03/26/yes-canadian-health-care-helpe
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Bill Bailey| 3.26.09 @ 7:37PM
I'm eagerly awaiting them too. Well, not really. They suck.
Daphne| 3.26.09 @ 7:37PM
Thanks, Matt--all we need are more demented libtard attacks. I wonder if that jack-ass JHarpy guy is going to show.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.26.09 @ 7:41PM
jharp? Where is thy sting?
Are you still waiting for Carville and Axelrod to email your "narrative" and talking points?
Note to non-Canadians, Quebec is the most European and statist of Canada's provinces. Draw your own conclusions from this singular success of "single payer" and the miraculous cost savings it obtained for Ms. Richardson's family.
Frosty| 3.26.09 @ 7:44PM
Canadian health care is good at taking care of 'healthy' people. Unfortunately, for the lovely Natasha, she wasn't.
Matthew Vadum | 3.26.09 @ 7:53PM
Good point, Frosty. If you're in good health, from the point of view of the patient Canadian health care is generally OK. It's once you need major, expensive care (open heart surgery, cancer treatment) that you get put on a list. If you need penicillin, you're in luck; a hip replacement, take a seat and make yourself comfortable.
Pingback| 3.26.09 @ 8:00PM
Yes, Canadian Health Care Helped Kill Natasha Richardson, Doctor Says — But As For Me links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.26.09 @ 8:27PM
The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Yes, Canadian Health Care … links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
wnunis| 3.26.09 @ 8:27PM
Matt,
Aren't you a Canadian born citizen? If so you would think you'd have some credibility speaking about the horrible system foisted upon the citizens of the great white north. Alas to many of the socialist/marxist trolls you're an apostate because you dare to criticize the wonderful universal system of rationing.
Angel| 3.26.09 @ 9:10PM
Matt, if you're the poor guy who needs a hip replacement, I doubt if you could 'take a seat and make yourself comfortable'. I've heard those suckers hurt.
ECM| 3.26.09 @ 9:58PM
Wow, it's 10PM EST and not a troll in sight?!
Steve M| 3.27.09 @ 2:55AM
I see, you've already decided to label dissenters as trolls.
Well, I won't disappoint you. Dr Franklin is lying. It's that simple. He has an agenda. I'd be willing to bet any amount he is tied to some private major healthcare provider itching to get into Canada.
My best friend is an ER doctor at Vancouver General, and she tells me all the time that big HMOs in the States are always looking for ways, subtle or not, to get into Canada and dismantle the medical system. You know why Canadians are incredibly resistant to this? Because 99% of the time it is a much better system than the States has.
I just personally went through a major accident, head injury actually, and received top-notch care. I didn't experience these 'fabled' wait times for specialized care. And I didn't go bankrupt paying for my care. Like many Canadians, I have friends and relatives who live in the States, and nobody, absolutely none, preferred the US system over Canada's.
I'm sure that if Natasha Richardson had been in the States, she would have received top care. After all, she's rich. If she had been poor or uninsured, not so much. And no matter what Dr Franklin argues, that is still the case. This is precisely why President Obama is putting Canadian style universal healthcare proposals forward. If he can take the best of our system and weld it to the best of America's, then more power to you all.
You notice I'm not saying Canada's system doesn't have flaws and couldn't be improved. It sure could. But Americans need to be looking at the thousand things it does right, versus the few thing it does wrong. And I'm not even saying Natasha Richardson's case was done wrong. She didn't take basic precautions, and she refused treatment until it was too late. That's where the blame lies here, not in the supposed 'failure' of the system.
gdp| 3.27.09 @ 6:30AM
Steve M.
Critics of Canadian Healthcare are part of a secret conspiracy that only a few of the elite, like you and your ER friend are on to. Bravo! I had neglected to even consider the conspiracy angle in this case. Dr. Franklin? Franklin? Maybe really Franklinbergstein? If only you could connect him to The Sinister Cabal of Jews somehow, then your conspiracy theory would get more traction on the left.
Kitty| 3.27.09 @ 7:04AM
Steve has a point about Richardson's refusal of initial medical care being a factor in her death. But the point is that once she felt ill, she was doomed in Canada due to lack of quick access. That wouldn't have happened if she had been in the States.
The reason for pointing out the Richardson case is to highlight one of the problems of nationalized health care because Barry wants to nationalize ours. And that would be a disaster. After all, where will the Canadians go when their health care tells them to wait?
It's true that not everyone in the US has health insurance, but no one is denied health care in an ER; it's the law. Here's proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJxmJZXgNI
...
Lisa Cook| 3.27.09 @ 7:54AM
You have got to be kidding right??? What is this doctor saying -- that we have an inadequate health care system? Well if Natasha was a poor person, she wouldn't have been seen at all in your country. Another "misinformation" that you are all fed about our health care.
Deborah | 3.27.09 @ 7:54AM
I'm sure there will be a boom in elective surgery in this country in the next few years before the Obama team can get their paws on the list of folks who are deemed too old to receive certain care.
My husband (just turned 60) got a laproscopic surgery on his bulging and broken disk. He was in on Tuesday morning, released on Wednesday morning and is healing nicely. He was afraid if he didn't do it now, he'd have to pay for it later by waiting and waiting and waiting...he waited a week and a half after his surgeon did an MRI to see the chipped piece of bone from his back wreaking havoc with his nerves.
He is up and around and taking it slowly, but this surgery was a God send to him. His back pain is gone. God bless the doctor and American medicine. Keep the socialized crap out of this country.
Lisa Cook - Proud Canadian| 3.27.09 @ 7:56AM
And Natasha REFUSED care - what are the health care providers going to do -- make her go? She died unfortunately because she herself delayed calling for help. Slamming my health care is another way that your U.S. doctors are trying to brainwash all of you in the U.S. into thinking that socialized medicine is bad. Please, give that old argument a break, U.S. We are totally offended by this doctor's remark. We have a wonderful health care system - that is totally inclusive to the rich, poor and in-between.
Lisa Cook - Proud Canadian| 3.27.09 @ 7:59AM
First we hear about FOX commentator putting down our military - when we are helping you over in Afghanistan, now this?!? I'm sorry this lady died.... I really am, but blaming my country over her delayed reaction to seeking help is what caused her to pass away.
BD57| 3.27.09 @ 8:15AM
Wow, what creative rejoinders .... "The guy who criticizes the Canadian system is lying .... he's a propagandist for the big health types who want to get into Canada ...." and, of course, "only rich people get treatment in the US"
Ms. Richardson declining care initially is an issue because it MAY have influenced the ultimate result in her case.
The test for the Canadian system, though, begins the moment she SOUGHT care - what happened then?
Dr. Franklin's point has not been refuted:
At a US ski resort, the doctors treating her would have had a) access to the transportation required to quickly get her where she needed to be receive appropriate care; and b) access to the diagnostic tools they would need to provide 'stopgap' care where she was, if that became necessary.
In Canada, however, her physicians had neither of those things, and their ability to care for her was compromised as a result.
Steve M| 3.27.09 @ 8:21AM
gdp, belittle me if you want, but it doesn't refute my argument.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just saying that private interests, both American and Canadian, would love to divide up the multi-billions spent on healthcare in Canada. A common attack is waiting for high-profile rare incidents like the Richardson case and then having paid experts use it as an example about how the whole system is failing.
I'm not making these things up. Do some research, it's easy to find evidence. I suggest you go to that bastion of conspiracy theory, the Canadian Medical Association's website (you know, the organization that licenses all the doctors in Canada), and search for privatization. Lots of articles will come up, many discussing the pros and cons of privatization. It's interesting that a lot of Canadian doctors are not against privatization, so long as it maintains an adequate level of care. So far, very few Canadian doctors are convinced that it would be an improvement.
However, most doctors do not want what they call privatization by stealth, that is when various private interests try to slip in significant changes to healthcare without public policy debates. These sort of end run attacks have been going on for years.
I would hope would actually consider what I'm saying without the mocking comebacks. My friend is in fact one of the elite ER doctors in North America. She just recently got back from Afghanistan where she was treating US and Canadian wounded, and if you hadn't heard about the rash of gang shootings in Vancouver, her skills are being used everyday. When someone like her tells me the score about what is happening, I listen.
And for Kitty, if Natasha Richardson had listened to the paramedics and staff urging her to go to the hospital right away, she would have made it in time even without a helicopter. I used to live in Quebec, so I know the distances involved. And when she got to the hospital, she would NOT have waited for a CT scan. As it was, when she finally decided to call for help, no medical system in the world could have helped her, so to attack the Canadian system on the basis of this incident is groundless.
I could go on, but I'm not sure I'm going to convince anyone of anything. I'm arguing from fact, I'm getting criticism based in ideology.
Kitty| 3.27.09 @ 8:39AM
I'm not slamming Canadian health care professionals; I'm slamming the Canadian health care SYSTEM.
Canadians may love their health care system, but it's not the answer for the US.
Steve, I agree that Richardson should have heeded the paramedics' advice. However, while I'm not privy to her particular case, I disagree with you that her death was inevitable had she been in the US when she finally sought medical attention.
...
Kitty| 3.27.09 @ 8:42AM
Btw, my daughter is an ER nurse in a major US hospital, so I know about the free care hospitals dole out on a daily basis and I hear about the miracles.
...
Becky| 3.27.09 @ 8:43AM
American expenditures in medicine and defense, make it possible for Canada to claim they have successful systems. Canada is blessed with geographically being located just north of the last remaining superpower. Poor people do get medical care when they seek it in America, they qualify for Medicaid and SCHIPP. In reference to the "uninsured" they also receive care, and would have had they experienced Ms. Richardson's accident. In America, also, vehicle insurance (required by law), covers medical expenses due to accidents, I have experienced that firsthand.
Anecdotal evidence, like an instance of good care in Canada verses an instance of poor care in America, are not enough for me.
By the way, both of my children, adults under the age of 30, pay for their own medical policies, Young Adult Blue, with a 1,000 deductable. It costs $54 per month. Very affordable to keep yourself out of bankruptcy in the event of a medical crisis. Most young don't need or want to pay for health insurance, not that there isn't a way. Most car insurance policies are more, and they manage to get it done. I would hazard to guess, most young people spend more on entertainment than a catastraphic policy costs.
Steve M| 3.27.09 @ 8:43AM
I just had to add another comment, this time for BD57
I didn't say only the rich get treatment in the States. But the poor often don't get the best.
Not every US ski resort has a heli-ambulance, so Natasha could have suffered the same fate in the US.
The lack of the air transport in Quebec was dumb, a hole in the medical system in Quebec specifically, that can be fixed. The money is there, Quebec officials have admitted that. A bad management decisions does not mean that the entire medical system across Canada is flawed, as Dr Franklin erroneously implied. This is what is infuriating. The problem in Quebec was more like a procedural failing, not a systemic failing, as it is being portrayed.
But you can believe what you like. The Canadian medical system saved my life three times in different accidents, once in the remote hills of BC when I was in an Army truck that rolled over a cliff, where I was rescued by an air rescue team, so I can vouch personally that it works.
gdp| 3.27.09 @ 9:02AM
Steve M.
You said Dr. Franklin was lying to advance an agenda. You've now, thankfully, retreated from that position. I'm satisfied that my work is done.
WendyG| 3.27.09 @ 9:03AM
>>>Brace yourself for a troll attack here at AmSpec Blog.
LOL. Not since Ron Paul was mentioned in an AmSpec blog, have so many trolls invaded.
Pingback| 3.27.09 @ 9:28AM
Deadly Canadian Care | Think Tank West links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Jeremiah| 3.27.09 @ 10:09AM
I suppose, Vadum, you're ready to argue that while Richardson may have been better off in the US, she would have been even more fortunate to take her fall in Japan, where healthcare costs half per capita what it does in the US and where people enjoy the longest health life expectancy in the world, with no waiting lists whatsoever?
All because of a health insurance system backed up by the government, along with price controls?
Probably not, because you're not analyzing, your just gassing based on ideological assumptions.
Jeremiah| 3.27.09 @ 10:11AM
Kitty --
The whole PROBLEM is that the free care is "doled out" in emergency rooms rather than normal doctor visits, where the free care would cost many times less and be many times more effective.
Think.
robrob| 3.27.09 @ 10:25AM
This article has some innacuracies and omissions. The town of Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts DOES in fact have a CT scanner. And while a helicopter would have been able to travel from there to Montreal in a shorter time, helicopters have to first be dispatched to the location from their base while ambulances are stationed locally, plus the time required for the pre-flight planning so the transport time actually is actually more than double that quoted as waiting for patient pick-up has to be included. The difference in time, therefore was likely minimal. Quebec does use fixed-wing airplanes for air ambulance and its valid to debate whether helicopters are appropriate in some situations but its not relevant in Richardson's case.
Pingback| 3.27.09 @ 10:48AM
Testing Blog links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
CH| 3.27.09 @ 11:10AM
Lisa Cook, get over your hurt feelings. Deal with deserved criticism, maybe it will make healthcare better for you.
CH| 3.27.09 @ 11:15AM
Steve M--no one in the U.S. cares enough about Canadian health care to try to dismantle it. Black helicopters and tin-foil hat time. Prove your absurd claim that Dr. Franklin has an agenda.
CH| 3.27.09 @ 11:16AM
Simply stated: If Natasha Richardson had been skiing in the U.S. she would be alive today. God bless her young sons and may she rest in peace.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 12:52PM
Natasha Richardson refused medical treatment for over 3 hours after she fell. She then was taken to the hospital within 20 minutes of agreeing to medical care, and stabilization, received a CT scan, and then moved to the trauma center, all within 40 minutes. She was operated on by the srugeon who trains AMERICAN doctors on how to treat head trauma.
There was nothing wrong in how Canada treated Natasha Richardson.
I don't know why the author of the article states that Natasha Richardson would have lived had this happened in Colorado. Two similar ski accidents DID occur in Colorado this past month,and both skiiers died despite the care they received. In fact, Colorado's death rate from ski accidents are much higher than all of Canada's.
Condolences to Natasha Richardson's family, and to the families of the two skiiers who recently died in Colorado.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 12:55PM
By the way - Quebec does have a medical helicopter system, but it's not government mandated. It costs $3,000.00 an hour, a fee Liam Neeson surely could have afforded. However, helicopters take time to load up. For example, a helicopter run in Colorado takes approximately an hour. In Quebec, it would have taken 40 minutes, the same amount of time it took to drive Natasha Richardson to the trauma center for surgery.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.27.09 @ 2:52PM
Interesting comments from Canadians. In this Canadian's experience there are two things that Canadian healthcare does relatively well: primary and emergency care.Where it falls down, miserably, is in anything outside this range of competencies. If you need a specialist or specialized treatment, you better get used to waiting and have a high threshold for pain.
I make this observation too. Why do you take offence when Americans criticize a government program? Answer: because for 40 plus years you have been given dollops of Tommy Douglas Kool-Aid that says that this particular government program is what differentiates you from all those less enlightened gun nuts to the south. One of the most magnificent deceptions and greatest accomplishment of Trudeau ideology.
Matthew Vadum | 3.27.09 @ 3:03PM
I see the most persistent apologist for Big Government health care here is Jeremiah.
Not surprisingly, he keeps changing the subject whenever his fantastic conspiracy theories get shot down, just as when he lied in an earlier thread about Jeff Gannon, the conservative reporter with a very embarrassing past
who was hounded out of the White House by the media.
See http://spectator.org/blog/2009/03/26/stunning-liberal-hypocrisy-on
Jeremiah| 3.26.09 @ 3:15PM
"Furthermore, Vadum, Gannon was HIRED by the White House to ask pre-scripted questions.
He was a governmentally STAGED journalist, bought and paid for."
There is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER for this theory, but when you suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome separating the
truth from fantasy becomes difficult.
When confronted over this lack of evidence,
Jeremiah backpedaled in his reply in the same thread at Jeremiah| 3.26.09 @ 3:44PM, admitting he had no actual proof but had
made inferences based on the fact that Gannon entered the White House when press briefings were not scheduled.
I used to cover the White House. I know for a fact that reporters may enter the White House at times other than during actual press briefings. Many reporters have desks in the West Wing and do much of their work there. My then-boss, who also covered the White House, would frequently visit the White House to pick up documents etc. For example, around every April 15th he would drop by to pick up copies of the tax returns of the president and vice president. Big deal.
Jeremiah's arguments are a combination of lies, conjecture, and red herrings.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 3:06PM
To the person criticizing Tommy Douglas - you know he was hired by a Republican President to try to make a similar health care system for the USA, don't you? He tried, but with the US's huge population and government structure, it wasn't possible. This isn't a liberal-conservative sort of thing, and those who try to make it so are ill informed.
There was nothign wrong with the care Natasha Richardson received. In fact, it was exemplary.
Why is no one addressing the fact that two identical deaths occured in Colorado, or do you plan on glossing over it like Cory?
CS| 3.27.09 @ 3:09PM
One more correction to the poster who says Canadian health care was conceived under Pierre Elliott Trudeau. It was not. It came to fruition under Lester Pearson.
Matthew Vadum | 3.27.09 @ 3:24PM
It is always fascinating to me how the socialist argument about health care so often comes down to cost. Socialists don't give a farthing's cuss about costs because they can always count on shaking down taxpayers to foot the bill. In this sense, money is no object. It is a disingenuous argument.
Jeremiah is also not being straight with us. He wrote
"Jeremiah| 3.27.09 @ 10:09AM
I suppose, Vadum, you're ready to argue that while Richardson may have been better off in the US, she would have been even more fortunate to take her fall in Japan, where healthcare costs half per capita what it does in the US and where people enjoy the longest health life expectancy in the world, with no waiting lists whatsoever? "
In fact Japan does not have the longest life expectancy in the world.
It is #5. See https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
Japan's is 82.12 years. America's is 78.11 years. That's not bad for the USA considering widespread obesity, sedentary lifestyles, and bad eating habits. It may only be the case that Americans live as long as they do because they have such a great health care system. With a government-run system, life expectancy for Americans might fall. I admit this is a guess on my part, unlike Jeremiah, who presents wild conjecture as the truth carved in stone.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.27.09 @ 3:50PM
CS: I am very aware of the history of healthcare in Canada. I did not say that Trudeau developed it, but he is the person who imprinted the idea of it being a part of his national unity program which would separate the Canadian mouse from the American elephant. Official Bilingualism, massive increases in social spending, and such loathsome agencies as NEB and FDIA were all part of the statist agenda of Trudeau and all wrapped up in the Maple Leaf flag.
Do ask yourself this question: who has more control over your healthcare choices, you or the premier of your province? For forty plus years the vast majority of Americans have had more choices than Canadians. The question for Americans is losing those choices.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 4:01PM
Telemprompter - Trudeau's leadership came years after Canada's health care plan was developed.
As far as who has more health care choices? As a Canadian, I do. I don't have HMO's telling me which doctor I can see, nor when I can see him or her. I don't have to worry about insurance, or how I'm going to afford health care, or about financial ruin if a loved one falls ill.
I have experienced health care on both sides of the border. I am thankful for Canadian health care and prefer it over the US system.
Look, what type of health care system Americans prefer is an American issue. It has nothing to do with what another country has working for them.
What Obama wants to do in the US is a far cry from what we have in Canada. I'd fight against any sort of health care plan that Obama is cooking if I were an American. It's insulting to compare his ideology to what we have in Canada.
Angel| 3.27.09 @ 4:19PM
Natasha Richardson would have lived if she had fallen in the U.S. She should have been choppered--not driven to the hospital. The drive was absurd, especially since she had sustained a head injury.
Heather| 3.27.09 @ 4:21PM
We catch Jeremiah in lies all of the time--he's a buffoon.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.27.09 @ 4:27PM
CS: I too have experienced healthcare on both sides of the border. If I were sick with a serious disease, I'd want to be in America. If I burn my hand or have the flu, both will work just fine.
However, God help me in Canada when I need to get a hip replacement, or get cataracts. Better get used to pills (out of your pocket) in Canada until you are get to the head of the queue.
When American doctors and nurses start abandoning rural Alabama for Yellowknife, I'll buy into Canada getting it right.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 4:39PM
Angel - are you aware that it takes approximately the same amount of time to move a patient by medevac copter as it does by ambulance in this specific case? It took only 20 minutes to get Natasha to the first hospital for a CT scan and the head drill, and 40 minutes by ambulance to the second. Colorado medevac copters take 1 hour to load and travel. Surely you can see how 40 minutes is better than 1 hour, can't you? Besides which, as has been stated ad nauseum, a helicopter is available in Quebec for a fee that surely Liam Neeson could afford.
To Teleprompter - it's a myth that cataract surgery and hip replacement surgeries take years to schedule. I've personally not known either to take more than 2 weeks to schedule. In addition, neither surgery is life threatening.
On top of it, none of that has anything to do with the erroneous claims in this article that a.) it took
"hours" to transport Natasha Richardson to the hospital, b.) that no CT scan was available nearby, and c.) that she died because of neglect. She got far better care than the two skiers who died in Colorado recently.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.27.09 @ 5:29PM
CJ: I did not say it took years to schedule these elective things. However, I have known them to take much longer than two weeks. Moreover, the time it takes to get a referral from one's gp to a specialist takes far too long.
Look, the fact is that waiting lists exist for a reason. That reason is that resources are rationed. The rationing decision is not yours CJ,or any Canadian's, other than of the cabinet of your provincial legislature. Shortening of waiting lists last year was accompanied by pouring more resources into the system, but it wasn't enough to make a significant dent.
The deal here in the USA is that the Canadian system is not seriously examined by those advocating "single payer" as a panacea. The cost savings are hailed as providing commensurate service and care when that is not the case whatsoever. There are trade offs for lower costs, but no one doing the cheerleading will address the bad ones. They are promising an illusion.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 5:38PM
Teleprompter - You are obviously unaware of how the referral system works. It's a same day thing. The family doctor faxes or calls the specialist who then schedules the appointment with the patient. I have never waited more than 2 weeks to see anyone.
As far as Canada's system not being viable for the US, you and I are in agreement - it could not work for the US due to size and government structure. However, it works well for Canada.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.27.09 @ 5:52PM
CS: You must live in a metro area. My experience in a rural area was far different. Eight months to see an orthopaedic surgeon; six or more months to see an opthamologist; all common. Old folks given pain pills to tide them over until they could get the operation for the hip replacement, common too. Not very humane that.
The only people able to jump the queue are those needing emergency care. However, if its not life threatening, grin and bear it.
Angel| 3.27.09 @ 6:09PM
CS, you're blowing smoke. Canadian health care stinks--we've know about it for a very long time. That's why we are fighting the Canadian care lunacy here. Managed care is good for the healthy--not so much for the very ill. I've heard different regarding Richardson's case--from someone I trust. I don't know you, you're most likely lying through your teeth and you're probably some jack-ass U.S. liberal pushing your damned marxist agenda. Buzz off.
Angel| 3.27.09 @ 6:11PM
Geez, Teleprompter, that really sucks. No way do I want that crummy health care here.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 7:00PM
Angel - what part of my post would make you choose to respond in such a juvenile manner? I am not an American, nor am I liberal. The only "lies" I see here are the ones by Cory, which I hope are the result of poor research and hysteria, and not deliberate falsehoods.
It is very easy to verify what I say - that the hospital 20 minutes away from Natasha Richardson's resort had a CT scanner, that she had minimal brain activity upon arrival, that surgeons rushed to save her knowing it was probably too late, and that 2 similar accidents in Colorado resulted in death regardless of who treated them.
There has been nothing in my posts to suggest I support nationalized health care in the United States. As I've mentioned, your government hired Canadian Tommy Douglas to create a similar system for the US and it couldn't be done.
I am not a supporter of Obama, nor do I support any of the health care plans Hilary Clinton proposed when her husband held office.
How fortunate that you don't represent every American.
CS| 3.27.09 @ 7:03PM
Teleprompter - while I do live in an urban area, I also have family in rural parts of Canada. Some of our best teaching hospital doctors fly out to rural areas to check on patients. Patients also have the option of being flown out to receive medical care. I have never heard of a case that took a year for treatment, anywhere in Canada.
We do have a doctor shortage in some areas, but care can still be received from clinics and emergency rooms. However, they are scrambling to bring more doctors into the busier areas to cut down on emergency care trips.
Heather| 3.27.09 @ 7:24PM
How fortunate that you aren't an American. Clown.
Bernard| 3.27.09 @ 10:56PM
Read this story and draw your own conclusions:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090327.wrichardson0327/BNStory/National/home/?pageRequested=3
jgarcia| 3.28.09 @ 5:53AM
We don't know all of what happened that resulted in Natasha Richardson's death. For instance, we don't know if she got a CT Scan at Centre Hospitalier Laurentien or not, if she was offered one and refused as she had the helmet and immediate emergency care. We also don't know if she had a CT Scan at Hopital du Sacre-Coeur de Montreal or not, if surgery was offered and refused, so it is definitely inappropriate to blame the Canadian health care system or anyone in it for her death. If you notice, the family doesn't want either hospital to comment on what happened behind their doors. They haven't blamed either hospital as yet. A lot of people under similar circumstances would be announcing a lawsuit.
jgarcia| 3.28.09 @ 6:01AM
I'm back here because I just read that "Los Angeles neurosurgeon Dr Wouter Schievink commented that a CT scan done immediately after a head injury might not reveal an epidural hematoma. It depends probably on whether the bleeding is from an artery or a vein.
This is another reason to not pronounce judgment on the care she got in Canada because there is a lot we don't know, and even if we did know, it won't make a difference and just causes conflict between Canadians and Americans which is unnecessary and amounts to an ego battle over opinions of right and wrong.
Kim| 3.28.09 @ 12:24PM
"Well if Natasha was a poor person, she wouldn't have been seen at all in your country. "
This is one of the myths that Canadians are fed about the US health care system.
Daphne| 3.28.09 @ 12:47PM
Natasha Richardson would be alive today if she had been skiing in the U.S.
CS| 3.28.09 @ 5:14PM
jgarcia - We do know Natasha got a CT scan within 20 minutes of accepting medical help. (The 911 calls have been released and verify that it took 8 minutes to drive her to hospital).
We also know a helicopter would have made no difference in her case because she was near brain death by the time she reached the first hospital. A helicopter would have only made a 15 minute difference, and Natasha was brain dead long before then.
To Daphne - no, Natasha would not be alive if she were in the US. It takes a full hour to get a skier in Colorado to treatment. It took less than that for Canadian paramedics to get Natasha care. In fact, you recently had 2 skiers die of similar injuries in Colorado this past month. Why didn't US health care save them?
The bottom line is that she refused a helmet, refused medical treatment in the first crucial hour, and probably had an underlying health problem that had not been diagnosed.
The 911 tapes show the compassionate and efficient care Natasha received. It's horrible she had to die, but at least she was surrounded by caring and professional people up til the end.
Kim| 3.28.09 @ 9:40PM
Richardson's family should sue Canada for malpractice. She'd be alive today if she'd been in the U.S. Such a sorry sorry shame. I'm never going up there; the terrible healthcare could kill me. Shame on you Canadian hacks for lying to hide your dark shame.
Bob deBilder| 3.28.09 @ 11:39PM
Canadians are like children when you point out their failures. They leech off America for military and medical help to cover there incompitence. Have you ever seen any compitent Canadians in a serious field? Didn't think so.
Canada should be sued for wrongful death by the family of Natasha Richardson.
I'd advise Americans to avoid Canadians for anything other than bad comedy and toilet cleaning.
Patti| 3.29.09 @ 8:50AM
Firstly, our hearts go out to the family of Natasha Richardson. I would never allow my children to snowboard without a helmet no matter how skilled they become. When one suffers a traumatic brain injury reasoning may be the first thing to go. Refusing medical care can be part of that initial confusion. It is well known that this well loved lady refused medical care after her fall. Time is crucial when one's brain is being flooded in a hemorrhage so it's certainly wonderful to have an airlift for critically injured people but what does one do if that person still refuses medical care? Restrain them and proceed with the airlift? Our staff are competent.Learn to spell Bob deBilder. Your ignorance is galling.
Our health care isn't perfect but at least we spread it for all of our citizens. It's shameful that 50 million Americans go without.
Rocky| 3.29.09 @ 12:37PM
The reason Natasha Richardson died is because she refused to get in the ambulance when the ski patrol called it. Her next-of-kin can't sue because she signed a waiver saying she was refusing medical care - basically she signed her own death warrant.
In this kind of head injury case there is what doctors call the "golden hour" to get the patient to the hospital and save their life. After that, their chances decline rapidly. Richardson waited three hours, and by that time it was too late. The hospital they took her to actually did have a CT scanner, but it didn't help. She was a goner.
Mont Tremblant is not a good comparison to Colorado. Colorado is more comparable to the Banff ski area. The resorts in Banff have the helicopters on speed-dial, and your first indication there has been a serious accident is when the ski patrol starts staking out a helicopter landing zone on the hill. From there they take them to the Banff hospital, which is minutes away, and if they are serious, they airlift them to a major hospital in Calgary, which is about 30 minutes away by air.
Health care in Canada is administered at the provincial level so it varies from province to province. Now, you could argue that Quebec should have an air ambulance service like Alberta or Ontario, but you can't argue that it would have saved Richardson's life. She simply waited too long to call the ambulance.
CS| 3.29.09 @ 2:26PM
Why is no one addressing the fact that 2 skiers died in Colorado the past month? Why is no one addressing the fact that helicopters take over one hour to transport patients for trauma treatment in Colorado? Why is no one addressing the fact that 911 transcripts show Natasha arrived at the first hospital in 8 minutes and had minimal brain activity upon arrival. Why is no one addressing the fact that Montreal trains all US trauma doctors?
Jeremiah| 3.29.09 @ 3:35PM
Why do YOU care so much? What's your agenda? Get a job.
JHarp| 3.29.09 @ 3:45PM
The Canadian 'professionals' should have known that this was Natasha's golden hour. They knew she had a head injury for gosh sake, and the medical personnel didn't taken proper care of her. How dare you blame her, when she was injured and not in her right-mind. This whole pathetic episode makes Canadian health care and its practitioners look incompetent. I do think her family has a legal case. Bob deBilder has a point. Grow a pair, people.
Chris| 3.29.09 @ 4:07PM
First, the above swipes (and those from uninformed U.S. doctors) at Canadian health care's "lack" of air ambulance services may not realize that in some regions the air ambulance services are the most sophisticated of any in North America (e.g. Ontario's Ornge system). See for example:
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/609875
As other reports have pointed out (and most US news articles slamming the system failed to report), the hospital where Ms. Richardson was taken did have a CT Scanner.
What was available for Ms. Richardson and if available, why it wasn't used may be a different story. As another reader pointed about above, even in the U.S., precise circumstances may be case by case and may vary from region to region.
What can be agreed upon here is that failure to wear a helmet, failure to accept immediate treatment, and the lack of knowledge probably by most people (until this event) about the deceptive but serious effects of head trauma resulted in a very sad, tragic loss of a talented and beloved woman.
Willey| 3.29.09 @ 4:39PM
The medical professionals SHOULD HAVE KNOWN: That's why we call them professionals, and that's why we trust them. The more you whine about your obvious medical incompetence, the worse you look. Typical liberals; spend your energy defending the indefensible instead of fixing the problem. Stop blaming it on Natasha. Losers!
CS| 3.29.09 @ 5:24PM
The Canadian health professionals DID know Natasha needed help, but since she refused to let them treat her (and signed a waiver to that effect), what can they do about it? Carry a woman, kicking and screaming against her will, into an ambulance?
It's illegal to do that in Canada, and it's illegal to do that in the United States.
Willey--PALIN 2012!| 3.29.09 @ 5:30PM
LOSER. Gotta blame it on the victim. Shame on you.
coffee fan | 3.29.09 @ 9:41PM
the loss of Natasha Richardson makes me re-think my former aversion to wearing a helmet while skiing
Marcus| 3.30.09 @ 9:46AM
No system can help you if you REFUSE to be helped as Richardson did.
GS| 3.30.09 @ 11:49AM
Too many posts are missing the point...healthcare in Canada is rationed by the government. In the US, healthcare is rationed by ability to pay. You could also say the US system rations on the basis of individual responsibility. Either way, there will be rationing. What I find more abhorent is this; the hosers get equal health care regardless of wealth or personal responsibility...the problem is, as in all rationing systems, care is not elevated to that received by the "rich", but quality of care is lowered so everyone is equal. I experienced this first hand when I lived in Calgary. Government mandated equal outcome is not socialist, it's facist.
MT| 3.30.09 @ 11:53AM
Keep your socialized medicine--we don't want it!
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BLUZ| 3.31.09 @ 5:35PM
"American expenditures in medicine and defense, make it possible for Canada to claim they have successful systems. Canada is blessed with geographically being located just north of the last remaining superpower. "
Canada is north of China?
Angel| 4.1.09 @ 1:09AM
Right on, BLUZ!!
Ken W| 4.1.09 @ 11:30AM
It's nice to know that wealthy skiiers who suffer an injury at a resort in the US could get faster treatment than those who seek medical help in Canada. Obama is not seeking to reduce the medical care in the US. What Dr. Cory Franklin did not address is the time it would take a poor young black man with no healthcare insurance to get a cat scan after he fell off his skateboard, hit his head and went to the ER in New York City or Chicago....
Frosty| 4.1.09 @ 3:38PM
How long would it take for a poor black man to get a cat scan if he fell off his skateboard in Montreal? Forever. We will get reduced medical care with nationalized health care, EVERYBODY. Dumb-ass liar.
wizardman| 4.3.09 @ 12:44PM
Was Ms. Richardson seen in the first emergency room at the ski area by a physician, or by another "provider"? Many outlying ER's in Canada are staffed not by MD's but ER "technicians", nurse practitioners, etc. that would not be trained to do emergency burr hole placements in such a case as this. Most, if not all, ER physicians (at least in the U.S.) are trained to perform such an emergency procedure for just such a case, which would have probably saved her life.
Adam| 4.6.09 @ 12:25AM
I laugh when people who have no idea what is going on blurt out their useless opinion despite it being debunked several times before their post. Take dear "heather" for example, calling the debater that destroys her a "clown" without even countering an argument.
Please, if you're mentally unstable; don't comment.
Sandra| 4.8.09 @ 4:15PM
As a proud Canadian, I sleep better knowing that in case anything should happen to my son, my husband or family, that each and every Canadian doctor will do their very best (at any expense) to treat them (without interference from any insurance company). I had a ONE YEAR PAID maternity leave to care for my newborn (not 6 weeks). Remember, we don't pay a dime toward health care - not a DIME! Instead of Americans finding fault in Canada's system they should really spend their time and energy fixing their own. How come American's never mention Britain’s universal health care system? Don't you get it, YOU'RE BEING SCREWED! The joke is on you. Britain and Canada benefit in universal health care and both are very healthy and happy counties. We don't care if you hate us, because honestly, we feel sorry for you.
Thanos| 4.8.09 @ 11:18PM
This whole thread is nothing but anti-Canadian slander from the discredited American ultra-right wing. Please move on, nothing to see here, except for another trainwreck caused by idiots who believe all the insipid lies Limbaugh and Coulter can spew out. Both Goldwater and Reagan must be spinning in their graves in genuine outrage at the moral, ethical, and intellectual disintegration of modern American conservatism. Please choose Palin as your leader for 2012. She just about ought to be the final well-deserved nail in the coffin of your odious ideology.
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Tim| 5.1.09 @ 12:26AM
So we keep hearing that the American system, which costs the average person over 2x as much as the Canadian one is better. You have .3 doctors per 1000 people more than us, .9 nurses per 1000 people less. The states have 12.6 CT scanners per 1 million people, we have 12.8. We have a better life expectancy (80.34, 10th highest on earth. vs 78.06, 30th on earth.) , we have a lower infant mortality rate (4.8 deaths per thousand, as oposed to your 6.3). So how exactly is your system working better for you? The numbers don't lie, you pay more for less. But keep telling stories about horrible wait times etc... Everyone I know with any kind of serious problem/injury was always admitted immediately. Heck, even in this case, your poster child for our "horrible system", they were prepared to take Richardson into the hospital immediately for scans to check for injury, it was her choice to wait 2 days until it was too late. So keep paying your ridiculous price for healthcare and telling yourselves its better. Maybe if you beliece hard enough it will all come true.
J. Taylor| 7.4.09 @ 10:17PM
Why are you wanting to waste our money for your own personal health. Everyone has a write to live a healthy life and all the President wishes to do is take care of his little family of pride and joy. I'd enjoy our pride and joy also.
Granny| 7.11.09 @ 3:18PM
All this arguing abount Natasha Richardson and whose healthcare is better is pointless. The real issue is that the insurance companies in America are bleeding everyone dry. They are the real reason healthcare is so expensive in America.
JL| 8.14.09 @ 8:29AM
The title and premise of this article is completely misleading ( deliberately I might add) and a pathetic scare tactic. It's also a LIE.
It should be noted1) Natasha DECLINED any treatment for 2 hours. 2) I suffered a bad accident at Tremblant, and CT Equipment and team was available within 10 minutes.
Had Natasha NOT declined treatment -she likely would have been alive today. While Quebec may not have a helo to airlift trauma patients - other provinces do. And you will note he said as much himself. hence this isn't a "socialized medicine" issue - its a CHOICE made by the Province. Consider part of "states rights". Its not about cost since OTHER cities in other provinces have airlift capabilities.
Lets be really clear here: what likely killed Natasha was that she DECLINED all treatment in the first crucial moments. Had she done what was told of her, to have a CT specialist examine her immediately after the accident -she likely would be alive today!
If she were conscious at 4 p.m., she'd most likely have been diagnosed and treated about that time, receiving care unavailable in the local Canadian hospital.
BLANTANT LIE. There are CT experts available at the local hospital. I know. I suffered a serious injury while skiing at Tremblant, was not wearing a helmet, hit the ground hard, and didn't decline the treatment offered- A CT specialist was available & performed all necessary tests.
Also I have skiied throughout the US and know with absolute certainty that FAR more resorts lack helos and local hospitals lack the proper equipment & specialists to deal with head trauma.
As I result I selectively chose which resorts I ski at in the US for that reason!
This article is pure hyperbole & mostly BS. As for the DR. 1) he's not the leading specialist 2) he's biased. He doesn't get to earn as much as he would in the US and as such blames the system - but NOT all the system - just the city he works in.
While I appreciate he'd like to get paid more, he also paid FAR less for his medical education in Canada subsidised by TAXPAYERS. Truth is he'd like to get paid OUT OF POCKET for is services which would render them TO EXPENSIVE for most people to afford.
I have lived in both Canada and the US. My experience with the HC system in the US has always been far worse than ANYTHING I have ever experienced in Canada. And to boot the cost in the US to me in both private insurance and out of pocket expense for treatments INSURANCE REFUSED TO COVER was outrageous.
No system is perfect . There are many good arguments to be made against Obama care. But using Natasha's death is NOT. SHE DECLINED ANY AND ALL MEDICAL HELP AVAILABLE TO HER. AND THERE WAS EXCELLENT MEDICAL HELP AVAILABLE CONTRARY TO WHAT THIS ARTICLE IMPLIES. And isn't America supposed to all about INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.
She made a sad mistake in wasting two hours before getting treated. & ONLY got treated when her headaches got so bad she couldn't see straight. BY THEN IT WAS TOO LATE.
Stop blaming HER decision not to seek treatment immediately on the Health Care system in Canada.
I sought treatment immediately and I m alive. The same can be said for HUNDREDS of others who have sustained head trauma in Canada whether thru skiing accidents or a myriad of others accidents.
JL| 8.14.09 @ 9:00AM
Don't get me wrong. I truly believe the US is in DIRE NEED of Health Care Reform - altho I believe it should be INSURANCE Reform mostly. And I don't support Obama Care as it now stands. Major amendments and changes need to be made to the bill. But I despise the hyperbole and lies on BOTH sides of the argument...and this article is just that. PURE Hyperbole, extremely and deliberately misleading, lacking in facts, and disgusting in its attempt to twist the truth about the unfortunate death of Natasha Richardson to suit the authors political agenda. That makes the author of this piece, those who support this piece, who buy into it, no better than the THUGS Obama has hired to silence those that oppose his HC plan.
If Natasha had been skiing at Deer Valley, where I ski frequently, & had the same accident occured, & had she taken the same position and DECLINED IMMEDIATE treatment, she likely would have suffered the same fate. It was HER choice to decline critical treatment in a timely manner that was vital. It was a sad mistake on her part.
TO BLAME, ALLUDE, IMPLY, ACCUSE the Canadian healthcare system of killing her is a disgusting vile reprehensible lie.