The Current Crisis
War Is Hell — Not Litigation
Jed Babbin is right to petition Secretary Gates to dismiss charges against three Navy SEALs.
WASHINGTON — The editor of the venerable conservative weekly Human Events is causing an admirable ruckus. Jed Babbin, once deputy undersecretary of defense in the administration of George H.W. Bush and now the editor of the oldest conservative periodical in the land, is petitioning Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to dismiss charges against three SEALs for allegedly causing discomfort to one of the most-wanted terrorists in Iraq during his capture last September. Babbin now has over 90,000 petitioners. Count me in.
The SEALs, Julio Huertas, Jonathan Keefe, and Matthew McCabe, are members of SEAL Team Ten. Their platoon captured one Ahmed Hashim Abed during a nocturnal raid on or about September 1 in Iraq. Abed is suspected of being the mastermind of the March 2004 ambush in Fallujah of four Blackwater security guards, which by hindsight was not such a good idea on Abed’s part. In a wild firefight his brutes killed the Blackwater contractors, all retired commandos, when they drove into an ambush. Then they desecrated the bodies, dragging them through the streets and hanging two from a bridge for the world to see. That ostentatious display of barbarism caught the attention of the U.S. military, making it, of a sudden, aware that Iraq was becoming dangerously unstable, with violence potentially spiraling out of control. The atrocity was, as the military commentator Rowan Scarborough has observed, a wakeup call that did not turn out well for the brutes.
Precisely what happened to Abed that September night is unclear. But he claims one of the SEALs, McCabe, punched him in the stomach causing him to bleed from the lip — odd symptoms, no? Presumably we shall get all the details during the SEALs’ court-martial trials that are scheduled to begin next month. Yet are these trials really necessary? The other two SEALs are charged with participating in a cover-up. I think it is by now pretty well established that terrorists do not always tell the truth, and they can be unruly when fallen upon in the dark of night in what they had thitherto considered secure hiding places.
Moreover, al Qaeda provides them with a training manual. According to Chapter 18 of a manual released by the Justice Department, al Qaeda’s finest are encouraged to complain of torture and lesser acts of mistreatment at the hands of their captors. Possibly they even hire publicists. Thus we have come to the point where members of one of our most elite special ops forces are going to be court-martialed for causing Abed a bloody lip during his capture.
The travesty could have been averted had the SEALs settled for a lesser charge. That seems to be what the commanding general in charge, Major General Charles T. Cleveland, expected after conferring with Army lawyers. Yes, Army lawyers are almost as influential in the execution of this war on terror as our finest special ops forces. Yet these SEALs entered military service with the highest ambitions. They want, according to Babbin, to become members of the SEALs’ most elite team. If they settled for the “non-judicial punishment” under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice that was dangled before them, their chances of serving our country at a higher level of combat would be ended.
So now these warriors, who regularly faced a barbaric foe to defend our country, will face courts-martial and possible ruin. General Cleveland had it in his power to tell lower-level commanders simply to lecture these soldiers on avoiding bloody lips in the future, but he set a process in motion that is destructive to these men and to the morale of our finest fighters in the war on terror. Secretary Gates can end this abuse of power by simply doing what Cleveland failed to do. Send these men back to their officers for a chewing out.
I hope Gates will follow this course. He is an honorable and intelligent man. I have known him since his boss at CIA, then-CIA Director Bill Casey, introduce him to me over two decades ago and told me that with Gates’ talent and good sense he was destined to do great good for our country. These SEALs have done great good too. Let us get them back to work and get these courts-martial canceled. The guy that should be appearing in the dock is Ahmed Hashim Abed, whose lip has doubtless healed.
About the Author
R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr. is the founder and editor in chief of The American Spectator. He is the author of The Death of Liberalism, published by Thomas Nelson Inc. His previous books include the New York Times bestseller Boy Clinton: the Political Biography; The Impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton; The Liberal Crack-Up; The Conservative Crack-Up; Public Nuisances; The Future that Doesn’t Work: Social Democracy’s Failure in Britain; Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House; The Clinton Crack-Up; and After the Hangover: The Conservatives’ Road to Recovery.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (127) | Leave a comment
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CB| 12.24.09 @ 6:44AM
A bullet to the head of Abed would have taken care of everything...
Nash| 12.24.09 @ 10:51AM
Agreed....The terrorists of the world have got to be collectively laughing themselves silly at our ''rules of engagement'' while they operate with no rules at all.
Ret. Marine| 12.24.09 @ 7:18AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you exhibit 1 of the USA's new policy from the pretender-n-theif, all hail to the "won" Obama. P/C is the word of the day. Remember, all orders are from the top and work there way down. Can we say payback?
Remember too, this is a person who has never run anything in his entire adult life, never had the responsibility of a pay roll, never answered to anyone, well maybe Soros, for any of his illegal actions, hides behind paper ( a laywers term for chicken little examples) for any excuss will do for me, but, not thee.
Even the Command Structure is under the gun from this coward, all hail to the "won" Obama.
And somehow we expect this CiC to take the moral high ground and get behind those who are tasked with our dirty work?
These SEAL members were correct in refusing the equivelent of a Captian's mast and going instead for a general Court Marial to prove their case. I could not think of anyother way to show the P/C cowards of their mental midget mindset and the error of their judgement in bringing charges for the alleged hot lip treatment, even if they did as alleged, they were way too polite in their actions. Remember we are talking about the lowest form of scum the world has ever faced.
I have a 31 yr. old son, currently in the M/E on assignment keeping rivals from cutting each others throats, who I spoke with yesterday, he was not pleased with the format from the appeasing Coward-n-cheif, (his words not mine) who after 13 years now in active service to his country wants to be released him from the clutches of this coward and return to civilian life to care for his family and prepare for what he believes will be coming in the near future. Pretty sad to have someone who's dedicted his adult life to serving his Country now wanting to get away from the mess the CiC has created. I can not say I disagree with him, I served from Nixon to G.W. and the only time I had the same sentiments was during the Carter and Klinton's administrations, I came very close to resigning my commission over moral and ethical issues, and I might add they were not as bad as we see now in the current CiC.
I wish all the best for our dedicated front line specialist, and especially those who are charged with such nonsense, that they return to their family's and lead a productive , prosperious and peaceful life. They all deserve our our admiration and respect for having the one thing this CiC has never shown We the People, courage.
JR| 12.24.09 @ 6:47PM
I know what your son is thinking. Same thing happened to me with Vietnam. I was 8 years as a Navy Corpsman and was planning on a career and spent the last year in country w/Marines. I just couldn't put up with the ineptness of how the war was being run and we were being used as cannon fodder w/o any intent of winning the damn thing. So, I got out, but never really escaped the political correctness, even in civilian life.
Lately I've been given hope that maybe there's enough folks that have had it with the lefties and their suicidal ways that we can start taking this country back.
ArloGuthrey| 12.27.09 @ 2:21PM
23 year dog soldier. Storm and Kosovo. I feel the pain to. We the People need to get off our collective duff and fix this. Our sons and daughters deserve no less.
Bill| 12.24.09 @ 7:40AM
Exercise in futility. Gates may be a good man but he doesn’t run the show. The empty suit in the White House does. The only way for these types of situations to change is to remove these used car salesmen from office and shoot to kill when on the battlefield.
grant1863| 12.24.09 @ 10:41AM
I think that is an insult to used car salesmen everywhere. At least they do some kind of work for a living.
Merry Christmas and thanks to these SEALS for all their hard work.
Pingback| 12.24.09 @ 8:08AM
Twitter Trackbacks for The American Spectator : War Is Hell -- Not Litigation [spect links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Miguel Saavadera| 12.24.09 @ 8:21AM
"Take no prisoners."
"Scuttlebutt" has it that this is retribution for the on scene Commander giving the order to take out the pirates in the Maersk Alabama's incident.
The ROE given to him didn't allow him to do it, and the C-in-C did not authorize the killings - But as the on scene commander the Captain authorized the 'SEALS' to take them out when they 'all' became visible .... pissing off the empty suits (Gates being one of them) above 'immensely.'
RAMIII| 12.24.09 @ 9:56AM
I agree -- take no prisoners. Still no easy choice.
Road Kill| 12.24.09 @ 8:24AM
This entire mess is an outrage and a blight to the honor of the USN Seals who are of the best this nation has to offer. A Muslim can make a claim of mistreatment and the rear echelon MFs dance like puppets on a string? The testimony of the Seals doesn't count for squat. Ret. Marine, maybe it is best your son does come home to take care of his family and look to the future. Loyalty is a two way street, and I don't see it for these three Seals. Sends a heck of a message for recruitment doesn't it?
Melvin| 12.24.09 @ 8:47AM
Brothers, have you ever entertained that just maybe, just maybe that we are fighting the wrong people?
Rocco| 12.26.09 @ 6:20PM
Melvin, I would be inclined to agree with you there, from one retired Devil Dog to another....
ArloGuthrey| 12.27.09 @ 2:24PM
Double Dog Ditto!
Mary Louise| 12.24.09 @ 8:54AM
In the discussion on torture it was amazing to read the counsel of pundits. IIRC, it was Jim Manzi who wrote that if we know or have strong evidence to believe that grave, gathering, terrible destruction lies ahead, torture can be employed but society, in order to stay pure, has to prosecute those who did the torturing. By the way, I’m not implying the SEALS tortured anyone.
Waterboarding may be torture, I really don’t know. There were volunteers (Hitchens, etc) willing to put that question to the test, but no one asks if wiring testicles is torture or if pulling out fingernails is torture. No one has to put those to the test.
No matter where you stop and read, one thing becomes unnervingly apparent: we are living on the vigor and competence (order and joy) of our betters, and an unraveling is probably just around the corner. As Voegelin [Israel and Revelation] says when writing of Egyptian spirituality and political order: "doctrine isn’t life."
If you’ve ever been protected from serious harm by someone who intervened on your behalf, at peril to himself, you realize and always remember that courage is the greatest of virtues. You’ve witnessed the self-abandon of charity, and a glimpse of pefect love in the most imperfect of souls.
The pacifist, who can also display courage, does not very often have it within his power to save the oppressed. Before Bonhoeffer went to meet to Christ he was in on the assassination attempt, wasn't he?
Pacifism must lead to the worst kind of ghetto. A matriarchal one in which the inseminators deposit and then leave. Not a patriarch or protector in sight.
When I was a young lady, the Christmas Eve fast was an absolute joy, and a blessing. All kinds of fish in an attempt, however simple, to represent peace with all flesh.
All the best, Mr. Tyrrell and Merry Christmas!
SoCon| 12.26.09 @ 2:39AM
Merry Christmas, Mary Louise!
I saw the Hitchens' waterboarding video; his ordeal lasted about 30 seconds before he started to squeal like a stuck pig. Alas, it was not an impressive performance on his part.
Many of those in our military undergo waterboarding as part of their training; I guess we torture them, too. I'd still prefer it to getting my head sawed off or being forced to jump off a 105 story skyscraper in order to escape a raging inferno.
Mary Louise| 12.27.09 @ 2:11PM
SoCon,
A little late, I know, but Merry Christmas to you too! And all the best to you and yours in coming New Year!
ML
bluecollarvytes| 12.24.09 @ 9:32AM
I take this absurd treatment of the Seals as sending a message to the military.
I wish a restful merry Christmas to the Am Spec editor and staff.
Ran / Si Vis Pacem | 12.24.09 @ 9:59AM
Mr Tyrrell,
Many thanks and Here is the link to join the petition at Human Events.
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year!
Howard| 12.24.09 @ 10:02AM
Here are two movie scenarios. Which one will Hollywood produce?
1. The SEAL's are found not guilty. It was shown the the terrorist lied about the "brutality". Does Hollywood make a movie about our patriotic and honorable servicemen?
Or:
2. The SEAL's are found guilty of some crime. Does Hollywood make a movie about brutal American fascist troops hurting a Third- World victim?
TURK| 12.24.09 @ 10:03AM
Emmett-Don't hold your breath waiting for the Bush appointment-do great good Gates-to step in to terminate this politically correct travesty. He comes from that wing of our government that has to be very proper-you know all the silver and crystal lined up meticulously on the white table cloth. He is the guy who trashed the dominating F-20 and got it terminated! You see, he doesnt like piloted aircraft. Loves drones----you know; the ones the terrorists hack into! (Don't take my word for the preceeding-read some back issues of the Air Force Associations mag) To expect Gates to do whats right is like waiting expectantly by your fireplace tonight Emmett, to have a pleasant conversation with the bearded guy in the red suit. Aint gonna happen. Especially considering who his boss is.
Franklin| 12.24.09 @ 11:02AM
Can we sign the petition or has he already delivered it?
Margie| 12.24.09 @ 11:50AM
The link is above, in Ran's post.
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Pingback| 12.24.09 @ 11:27AM
The American Spectator : War Is Hell — Not Litigation American Me links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Thomas| 12.24.09 @ 11:59AM
I do not expect Secretary of Defense Gates to do anything about this. His is the ultimate political hack and will simply hide in his office and allow this farce to continue. He will allow the career military politicians to do the dirty work. And if, as has proven to be the case in virtually every other excessive force court martial of the last five years, it is proven that the charges have no factual basis outside the PC driven imaginations of the upper echelons of our military, then he will allow the story to simply fade away.
Margie| 12.24.09 @ 12:01PM
So this is what we've come to. I'm not a young lady anymore, but when the next Revolution begins, I want to be there on the front lines.
Here's to you Obama~
"For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and 'His office let another take.'" Acts 1:20.
Richard Baker| 12.24.09 @ 12:05PM
Melvin:
Remember, the oath I took spoke of "enemies, foreign and domestic." Go to the Oathkeepers web-site. You have a point.
Turk: F-22 Raptor. I believe we'll be in it with the Chinese in the near future and all of these aircraft will be doing double-duty. Wrong decision for Gates and the US.
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TURK| 12.24.09 @ 1:39PM
Richard Thanks for the Raptor correction. I'm embarrassed. As far as the rest of my tome---double it!!
Richard Baker| 12.24.09 @ 2:11PM
Turk:
The F-20 Tigershark was an interceptor version of the F-5 Tiger single-seat fighter for which the T-38 was the dual-seat trainer and is seen being used by the astronauts flying in and out of the Cape, among other places. Northrop used Chuck Yeager as it's spokesman but the plane didn't catch on and wasn't produced. Merry Christmas, sir.
Oldefarte| 12.24.09 @ 2:29PM
First and foremost, I wish to offer my sincere thanks and best wishes to 'Ret. Marine' [and to any/all retired/active members of our military] for all of their sacrifices, dedications and services to me, my family and America [and also MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR]. Secondly, 40 years ago I was personally told by a then active duty Marine that, during the current Viet Nam War, the Viet Nam had begun implementing their terror tactics [when they killed a US military person, they/VC would amputate a certain sexual appendage and place same into our soldiers' mouths]; and that our soldiers thereafter, upon killing a Viet Cong, employed their own retalitory terror tactics [amputating the VC's noses and ears and placing same into the dead VC's mouths]. Maybe currently, our military members fighting these middle eastern terrorists should begin to enploy similar tit-for-tat terror tactics upon these terrorists-vermin. As to the Navy Seals b=now being charged/tried; I say immediately drop all charges, presnet all of them with the highest military medals of honor possible, and give all of them an instant promotion and salary raise!!!!!
Jim O'Brien| 12.24.09 @ 3:45PM
Americans should just stop volunteering for the military, or if already serving, get out of the military as soon as you can. Why risk your life fighting an enemy who, when captured, is given the same rights as U.S. citizens? Like the 9/11 Gitmo terrorists going to NYC for trial .... It doesn't seem to matter that they attacked and destroyed part of the Pentagon and killed over 3,000 American civilians in an act of war.
I am reminded of the Vietnam War, during which about 58,236 American soldiers died and about 150,000 were wounded, only to have Congress cut off support for the South Vietnamese after Kissinger negotiated a cease fire. For what purpose were all our soldiers killed or maimed? (BTW - I was there - 4th Infantry Div)
WRTolkas| 12.24.09 @ 5:02PM
Dear Mr. O'Brien,
I fully concur with your statement. I told my son, under no circumstances other than all-out declared war, not to enlist or join ROTC in college. This stand did shock my family as my brother and I served in Vietnam, my wife's brothers served in Vietnam, and both my father and father-in-law served in WWII.
I'll wait until that porch-monkey-in-chief is gone before I think about changing my mind.
Merry Christmas,
WRTolkas
J.C.Eaton| 12.24.09 @ 4:03PM
What did Churchill say?" We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men with guns are ready to do violence to those that would do us harm" The current crowd in D.C. wouldn't make a pimple on one of these guy's butts. This charge should be a skit on SNL.
Bydand76| 12.26.09 @ 2:04AM
That wasnt Churchill who said that quote. It was George Orwell,
"People sleep peacfully in the homes at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
Just a point of order. I agree with your sentiments.
Richard Baker| 12.24.09 @ 6:11PM
Gentlemen:
We serve because someone has to hold the line. Part of my Army career was served under Carter. I was ashamed of him as Commander in Chief and had foreign military ask me what the Hell was going on. Regardless, I did my Duty and served this country. We've had massive troubles before and will again. The reason the World hates us is because we get knocked down and just keep getting up. If we don't keep on then Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Belleau Wood, Normandy, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Chosin Reservoir, Khe Sanh, Fallujah, and all the rest were a waste of time and this experiment in Liberty and Freedom was a joke. Is that what you all believe? I was in 1/21st Inf with 25th ID. Our motto on the unit crest was Duty. Onward.
DanH| 12.24.09 @ 7:12PM
I agree with Richard. We served to protect and uphold the Constitution not whoever happens to be CiC.
/20 Yrs. in the USAF
What? Somebody's got to attend Finishing School.
darcy| 12.27.09 @ 1:57AM
And I agree, too, Richard and DanH. Our military serves the country, regardless that sometimes we have boneheads as POTUS.
And speaking for just myself, I am exceedingly grateful for our military and depend on them -- and sleep better at night -- for their protecting us against enemies foreign and DOMESTIC -- as those enemies of our Constitution may even be in positions of authority.
Unhappily, people across the nation are beginning to wonder how far will these current usurpations go with nary a wimper of real, concrete force to stop it. Just who will stand up against the tyranny that is O and his cronies?
Are we not on a threshold of events as injurious to our freedoms as were our countrymen in 1776?Our government must begin to fear us again. But to the contrary, it must be really feeling its oats to think that the American people are going to watch this charade of the SEALs' court marshall and not take note of who our real enemies are.
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Northern Rebel| 12.25.09 @ 9:24AM
Our enemies are laughing at us. They think we are weak and vulnerable.
They are right, as long as we continue to elect feel good kumbya (sp?) socialists, like "President" Anti-Christ.
When 1000's of Americans perish in another attack, as I believe will unfortunately happen on this evil weak man's watch, the dead will not care about "I told you so's." It will be too late for them.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AMERICA!
Please wake up, and take charge of your country.
Margie| 12.25.09 @ 10:33AM
It's kumbaya. :^)
~Merry Christmas, Soldier!~
And to all.
TURK| 12.25.09 @ 9:27AM
Richard The T-38 was a superior trainer among other things! It was after my time. My tng weapons of choice were the T-28 and T-33.
To all: Gates telegraphed his prejudice against the Blue Suit with the manner in which he fired the Sec AF and The AF Chief of Staff. Imagine bombing the germans in WWII with drones!
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Wicked Dickie-Virginia| 12.25.09 @ 11:59AM
Merry Christmas, y'all. Let us take this day to rest, reflect and celebrate His birth with our family. Then, tomorrow begin to work toward making those senileter traitors, other communistcrats and our beloved Muslim in the White House pay big time for their evil. I expected "raise those taxes when not needed" Warner to betray us but Webb is more than I can stomach. A real hero corrupted by the slugs. Let's make them both one termers. There is wisdom in Virginia's single term governor law. And yes, I did sign the petition although it makes me sick it is necessary. May God bless all our troops. They need His blessing more than ever while GD America infests the White House.
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Sam| 12.26.09 @ 1:36AM
This issue would be ridiculous if the article hadn't misled all of you readers on a few issues. First, the Navy Seals aren't being court martialed for punching Abed during capture. The issue is whether he was punched and beaten AFTER capture.
If they did beat him up after capturing him, that's a problem.
Now don't get your panties in a bunch and say that I believe terrorists over U.S. Navy Seals. My brother is training to become a Navy Seal and they are the best specialized defense force in the world.
But they are also human and subject to human emotions like anger and outrage. I'm sure it would've been tempting to kick the crap out of the scum named Abed.
Nevertheless, we have laws against brutalizing prisoners and if they did do that, they must be held accountable. THE POINT OF A COURT MARTIAL IS TO DETERMINE THEIR INNOCENCE OR GUILT!!! If they've done nothing wrong, they will be exonerated. Period.
John Navratil| 12.26.09 @ 1:56PM
You are, of course, correct in your statements; but over-broad. We could litigate every little thing just because of a disagreement. Do we? No!
We have Grand Juries which look into things to determine if there is a reasonable belief that a crime has been committed. Prosecutors routinely weigh the prospects of obtaining a conviction. Why? It is not to ensure perfection, as no human endeavour is prefect. It is rather to insure that justice is best served by focusing resources where they are can best achieve a just outcome for all of society and to keep an undue burden from being placed on the individual who must defend himself.
Here we have lost the services of three soldiers which must be made up. We are expending capital and other resources. If this were cost-free your argument would be complete. However it is not and we are expending inordinate amounts for a bloody lip.
ArloGuthrey| 12.27.09 @ 2:59PM
Sam, not meaning to conflict with your view point but rather provide insight. In order for a military organization in effectively engage in combat it must have discipline; that said, it can not have discipline without trust. Commanders must have trust in their subordinates to carry out their orders. But, the lead have to have trust in the competence of their commanders or they will not risk their lives to completely carry out said orders when they can figure out some plausible reason not to. I medically retired from the Army after 23+ years of service. Part of my treatment before retirement was PTSD counseling. I sat in group with a bunch of these fine men and women (and yes we do have women serving in combat). The discipline of our ground combat forces is cracking. The unwritten code I herd time and again is, "What goes on in the squad, stays in the squad." The sad fact is that a lot of our combat veterans, from all branches, don't trust their commanders. I know how they feel because I had the unfortunate experience of going to Storm under corporate type leaders in Storm. I agree with Richard's and DanH's "true faith and allegiance", it's all they have right now. They deserve good leadership and their not getting it now. We the rest of the American people need to do better by them.
Nobama| 12.26.09 @ 10:42PM
Sam, are you aware that the Al Qaeda handbook instructs their 'personnel' to falsely accuse their captors of physical abuse in order to gain sympathy from the media? Hmmm?
Ever think of the propaganda angle? These terrorist SOBs are accomplished liars; only morons would believe their word over that of our warriors.
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Zbigniew Mazurak| 12.26.09 @ 4:49AM
I've signed the HE petition and condemned the litigation on the day it was announced, but the claim that Gates is "an honorable and intelligent man" is ridiculous. Gates is neither honorable nor intelligent - he's a despicable traitor who is unilaterally disarming the military as per the politically-designed orders of Obama and his CAP buddies. He has appointed many pacifists to the Defense Policy Board and has implemented the entire defense cuts wishlist of the Center for American Progress - exclusively for political reasons, despite his claims that these defense cuts were "reforms".
Zbigniew Mazurak| 12.26.09 @ 7:47AM
Richard Baker - you're right, the decision to end the F-22 program was a tragic mistake. Communist China is an enemy of the US, one which will eventually wage a war against the US (its Naval Academy students are taught how to sink American aircraft carriers).
Ruler4You | 12.26.09 @ 11:10AM
This is a widely taught technique used by the enemy to weaken the effort against it. And we can see it on several fronts right here at home. The kid gloves handling of the Ft. Hood terrorist. The trial of Gimo detainees in American courts. The acquiescence to CAIR of our judicial system and the legislative branch. The recent request for "protection" from the administration by 'muslims'. This is ALL designed to weaken us against our resolve to destroy the enemy. As is this petty complaint by a murderous thug. I support my brothers in arms 110%. And make one recommendation for future contact: KILL THEM DEAD ON SIGHT ON THE BATTLE FIELD. Problem solved.
S.L. Toddard| 12.26.09 @ 2:53PM
I have a question (and I asked this in another thread but it's just as appropriate here if not more so).
Consider the following tendencies:
* Endless quasi-religious worship of the state's military power
* Endless demands that more and more wealth (and therefore power) be confiscated from American workers and redistributed to the state's military machine
* Blind and passionate advocacy for any and every costly, state-expanding, state-empowering scheme the egghead bureaucrats in Washington cook up - as long as it involves using the state's military machine
* Abiding faith and devotion to the idea that (whenever the government exercises or proposes to exercise its truly awesome and terrible military might) government is noble and beneficent, that it is efficient, that it is peopled with wise men, and that it should be further empowered with confiscated tax money so it can be used as an engine to effect social change all over the world
Is it possible for one to argue that the tendencies enumerated above are not those of a statist?
We have 3,000 miles of open border with Mexico, across which any terrorist can easily stroll. Keep *that* in mind when Big Government tells you our soldiers need to be on the other side of the globe to "protect us from terrorism". It is not a serious position - to claim the danger we face from terrorism is so profound that we must wage perpetual war, but it is so insignificant that we can leave open a 3,000 mile door to any jihadist who wishes to attack us.
Margie| 12.26.09 @ 5:35PM
I have an idea. Toddard will run for President on the platform of building a wall around the United States. After said wall is built we can all hunker down together under our school desks.
When the terrorists see this nice big wall and attack us with a nuclear bomb we'll all be just fine.
Right?
S.L. Toddard| 12.27.09 @ 11:41AM
Marge, I don't have a problem with your statism. I do not take issue with the fact that you fetishize and worship Big Government's military machine - you are a Big Government militarist, and that's what they do. What I take issue with is you pretending otherwise.
Margie| 12.27.09 @ 2:35PM
Silly talk as usual.
You say conservative I say Leftist..
Sorry Toddard~~ I know you'll continue trying to define conservatism as you see it.. that being non-interventionism. But it just isn't going to work!
John Navratil| 12.26.09 @ 5:46PM
S. L. Toddard,
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "
Recognize it? You are free to disagree with where and how our military is providing for our common defense, but at least it is in the Constitution. Bailouts, corporate takeovers, mandatory health care purchasing are not (to answer your question on statism).
While there are plenty who will agree with you about the porous nature of our Southern border, many will also agree that it is not an easy stroll. The unequipped terrorist can, especially given funding, enter on a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam and avoid that trek. I'd much rather the soldiers be over there with the jihadis than waiting for them in the Sonoran desert.
S.L. Toddard| 12.27.09 @ 11:39AM
It is not a serious position - to claim the danger we face from terrorism is so profound that we must wage perpetual war, but it is so insignificant that we can leave open a 3,000 mile door to any jihadist who wishes to attack us.
John Navratil| 12.27.09 @ 1:35PM
Au contraire. It is a very serious position where you deploy your limited resources. If the attack we coming from the southern border, and I acknowledge the threat, that is where the troops should be deployed. Right now the attack is in another continent. That's where the troops are needed.
It is you, I think, who is not being serious. Everything is free. There is no cost to deployment or sealing the border. You assume the security of that border is being ignored. I will tell you that I don't know what all is being done but I can also tell you that there are places I cannot fly for fear of colliding with a radar blimp.
I'm sure there is a position in the White House which is yours for the asking just to make sure the FBI, CIA, Joint Chiefs and military and the TSA are getting in right. Why not apply?
Patriot| 12.28.09 @ 6:28PM
Toddard would fit right in; along with the other Marxists and Communists in the Obama administration. There's a pervert or two in the mix also, which I'm sure would greatly appeal to the old SL Doddard.
Mike| 12.26.09 @ 6:14PM
As a Marine I was trained in the treatment of enemy prisoners of war. That treatment did not include physical abuse. Have we become such chicken....s that are willing to act like the enemy we fight? A nation of cowards that wants it's military to commit unlawful acts because we are all about to pee in our britches over another attack.
Semper Fi from an old 0341
Nobama| 12.26.09 @ 10:27PM
Kind of crappy of you, Mike, to take the word of a vicious, lying killer over our SEALs. Where's your proof? You assume the worst in these three fine Americans, why?
You are a POS, sir.
Richard Baker| 12.26.09 @ 6:45PM
Mike:
I think you should talk to the Old Marines who were at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, if you can. They didn't exactly use Marquis of Queensberry Rules to defeat the Imperial Japanese Army. Now we have an enemy who has no country, no government, but who uses the Koran as his motivation and murder guide and wants to kill tens of millions worldwide. If you've not read it, I suggest that you do. I'm not worried about what others think of us (by the way, did al-Queda sign ANY International Convention?) but that we survive against the murder cult which is Islam. If I could save 3000+ people by torturing one of these Moslem killers, I'd do it in a New York second. Or would you rather fight them here on our streets and in our backyards?
Steve| 12.26.09 @ 8:09PM
I agree with Mr. Richard Baker all the way except for the last sentence of his post. As in Europe, the immigration authorities haven't been very mindful of who they let into the country. We just may have to take action locally because these "basket cases" are amongst us and have set up training camps all over the country. I really wish the FBI could be more muscular in shutting down these operations. These camps are not exactly run by "blue eyed" Swedish Catholic nuns.
Just my take...
Nobama| 12.26.09 @ 10:31PM
Would you disagree with Baker if it was your wife and/or your young children about to be slaughtered by terrorists, Steve?
Just askin'...
Steve| 12.26.09 @ 8:52PM
I perhaps got a bit off subject in the last post; although the comment was entirely valid. I want these three Navy Seals off the hook! They are not trained in the Social Services Sciences. They are trained to kill. End of story! Stop sending our men to instill Democracy overseas; the Muslims don't want it and wouldn't understand the concept if it hit them upside the head. No more American or British blood should be spent trying to bring peace to these Arab nations. Let them rot as they always have and will continue to do so. If our troops are going to be court-martialed
every time they behave as trained, then bring them back and send in the Girl Scouts with cookies, candies and kebab. Better yet, perhaps Lawrence of Arabia could sit down with these idiots and have a bit of a chin-wag; make them see the light... Mr. O'Toole, where are you now that we need you? Hmmm! Probably drunk as a skunk in some Irish pub, no doubt!
S.L. Toddard| 12.27.09 @ 11:37AM
"Stop sending our men to instill Democracy overseas"
Indeed. Funny how many "conservatives" are passionately behind a Big Government project to democratize the Middle East. It's beyond satire.
Richard Baker| 12.27.09 @ 12:48PM
Can anyone help me? There seems to be an irritating break in the static. Anyone know what it is?
Gilbert jacobi| 12.27.09 @ 2:02PM
"Is it possible for one to argue that the tendencies enumerated above are not those of a statist?"
Since they don't exist on this thread, who cares?
An even better question: Since these "tendencies" aren't on display here, why act as if they are?
One answer to this is found in this poster's comments on other sites, such as Chronicles, where he has called Americans the most murderously savage people on earth; accused America of murdering millions in the Middle East, (where he says we have no right to be); and asserted the moral equivalence of Taliban, who mutilate and sodomize their victims - obviously deliberately - and Americans, who accidentally kill civilians while defending themselves from Taliban who have deliberately hid among civilians.
The gist of it is that Toddard sees anyone who is not utterly contemptuous of the military as a knuckle dragging dupe of the evil military-government-industrial complex.
This is why he accuses those who rise in defense of specific individuals involved in one small-unit action with "worship of the state's military power".
This is why he accuses those who make a rational argument in favor of a single weapons system with advocacy of a blank check for the military.
This is why he charges commenters here who have made pointed, even passionate, criticisms of various wars and military policies - including the suggestion that Americans boycott joining the military - with blindly supporting every use of the military. With being in accord with using the military to push for PC changes overseas when everyone here laments both the social engineering forced on our troops and their misuse for this purpose overseas.
I have a question for Mr. Toddard: Is it possible for someone who does not hate America to hold the above mentioned views?
Gilbert jacobi| 12.27.09 @ 2:08PM
Mr. Baker
Obviously, my comment is directed at Mr. Toddard. I thought it could serve as an answer to your question, but I see it could be confusing to you. Sorry for any shock caused.
S.L. Toddard| 12.27.09 @ 2:30PM
"Since they don't exist on this thread, who cares?"
Forget whether they are on display here or not. Let's assume that they are not on display here, or anywhere at AmSpec.
Is it possible for one to argue that the tendencies I enumerated above are not those of a statist?
gilbert jacobi| 12.31.09 @ 12:34AM
S.L. Toddard| 12.27.09 @ 2:30PM
"Since they don't exist on this thread, who cares?"
Forget whether they are on display here or not. Let's assume that they are not on display here, or anywhere at AmSpec.
Is it possible for one to argue that the tendencies I enumerated above are not those of a statist?
_________________________________________________
Your list draws a caricature that bears but faint resemblance to any but a tiny fraction of Americans, the vast majority of whom are probably in Washington. Yet you talk as if there were one under every bed and behind every keyboard, and latently in the rest of us. Along the way to enlightening us to this danger, both around us and in us, you casually impugn the reputation of our servicemen and women, and our own intelligence.
The problem is that you fail to recognize or disagree with the American way of relating to and thinking of our armed forces. We don't see them as a remote, alienated, Soviet style monolithic power. We see them as "us", not "them". We know them by branch and by unit, whether it's the locally manned reserve unit, or outfits drawn from nation-wide like the Marines and the Airborne. Even those who are not part of a military family tend to think of our military as something like a part of our extended family: the sons of Iowa, the pride of Texas. Listen to the comments here of those who look to the military to be our last resort against the usurpations of government. These folks bear no resemblance to your "statists"; rather, they are the heirs of the patriots of 1776, who trusted their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to the valor and fidelity of their neighbors and countrymen at arms. What you call "worship of the state's military power" is pride in and affection for our service personnel; what you see as "endless demands" for money for the military is no more than a concern that these members of our extended family be given what they need to come back alive and victorious.
Neither of these "tendencies" presupposes or leads to the last two on your list.
Margie| 12.27.09 @ 3:44PM
I thank you for your post, Mr. jacobi!
Gilbert jacobi| 12.29.09 @ 7:00PM
Anytime, Margie.
Mitch van Biljon| 12.27.09 @ 2:56PM
This rank stupidity will result in troops leaving no prisoners. It is the idiotic leadership of the military that are destroying our armed forces ability to fight this war effectively.
If I were the commanding officer of these men I would tell the pc generals to go to hell and leave my men alone. For pete's sake even paying attention to this murderer and his bleeding lip is childish. When our troops are captured and murdered and their bodies dragged through the streets what will be the response of these useless generals? One thing is for sure the enemy will pay no attention to bruised lips or bleeding mouths. This is war you friggin idiots!
My son is in the military and I tell him to get out as the obama team will do more damage to our men than the enemy can.
Tim| 12.28.09 @ 9:24AM
I'm looking forward to the trial of that Dutch hooligan who brutally beat that Nigerian guy the other day.
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Tom R| 12.29.09 @ 12:21PM
Bob- From long experience I can tell you General Cleveland did not have the legal option to remand the SEALs' punishment to a lesser authority than a general Court Martial. Judicial punishment begins at the lowest commander's level, and that immediate commander may make it a non- judicial punishment, Company level, request a Field Grade, or Court Martial. No senior officer or commander is legally permitted to influence the subordinate commander in deciding what is the appropriate punishment,or even to advise them on the matter.
Also, charged soldiers ( in this case sailors ), have the legal right to demand a court martial. So, not knowing the particulars, I'd say either the immediate commander asked for a CM, ( I doubt it ) or most likely the SEALs' themselves asked for it . General Cleveland was not to influence those decisons.
Richard Baker| 12.29.09 @ 6:39PM
The SEALs asked for the Court Martial in lieu of Non-Judicial punishment in the form of an Article 15. This is the story from the Navy.
Brooke| 12.29.09 @ 8:56PM
It's smart of the SEALs to choose courts-martial-- bring it to the people so the bogus charges will be dismissed.
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