The American Spectator

Melvin| 11.26.09 @ 10:00AM

n being a Marine in the field I only cared about one thing. That we had the support of the American people. Thats it, everything else was perfunctory.
The war that I fought in, didn't have all the bells and whistles of this one, we were pretty much regulated to what the Stars and Stripes provided of what was happening outside our immediate world, and the mail, which was weeks behind.
In this war when Marines are not fighting on the outposts they move back to where there is access to the Internet and I have even heard from returning Marines that they can sign up for Internet service, cable TV,and Cable phone.
So, the information that is being beamed from the United States is immediately absorbed by our men and women in the field. They hear, they see, they feel and think about the same things that we do.
Being a Marine first and foremost I am a processional, and would not do or think anything that would jeopardize the mission and my fellow Marines.
But, I couldn't help have the creeping specter of, "What the hell is going on back there, what do they want us to do? We go out hunt and kill bad guys, come back, go out hunt and kill bad guys and come back. We're not moving forward we're remaining static."
Unit commanders can only cover up this lack of tactical direction for only so long before the men start to see through the facade and moral begins to fall.
The men and women in the field go from, "Yea, lets go win this thing" to where their attitudes and actions become mechanical, robotic and just mark the days down on the calendar until the unit rotates back to the United States and let out a sigh of relief that when the aircraft enters US airspace again that they made it back with everything they left with.
There is indecision in Congress, there is indecision in the Senate, there is indecision in the Pentagon, and there is a massive failure of indecision from the President. And most importantly there is indecision from the American people to have the damn guts to stand up and either force those dithering political jackasses to crap or get off the pot.
A note to the Congress and the Senate
“Win this damnable war that you got us into or lose it, just make a decision so our men and women in the field can have some direction in what we want them to do. You now sit at your long tables with steaming piles of turkey and all the trimmings, with your families giving thanks to a bountiful 2008 election. Our men in the field are sitting around a small camp fires in some Godforsaken Muslim land with steaming piles of goat crap, eating cold food covered with gritty dirt, wondering what the hell the President is going to do, this isn't so much to ask for is it?”

Rocco| 11.27.09 @ 8:06AM

Melvin, as a 30-yr recently retired Devildog, I heartily agree!

canuckistani| 11.27.09 @ 6:06PM

Sir, thank you and the the troops for their service.
Question: why are enlistees so easily fooled?

That's the root of the problem. The wealthy have co-opted the American dream and equated financial security for them with national security for all. Cheney and Rummy created this mess, Bush was simply the signature. Sent young boys into battle without a plan, inadequate equipment and into the middle of two bloodfeuds that have been going on for generations. Every war of choice the US has entered has either been lost or ended in stalemate. Bring them home, and tell your sons to stay the hell out of military service. The enemy is us and our sad fear of the unknown.

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.27.09 @ 7:26PM

.......stani,
First of all...you are not a pimple on those men's arses.
They fought and won your ability to be so arrogant, and stupid, and ignorant, and worthless.

In addition, your posts here and below demonstrate very clearly that our veteran posters here are so much more intelligent and knowledgable than you shall ever be.

You are so stunted, testicularly, emotionally, and historically that this the one and only time I shall write to you. I am writing to you here as my one and only joke on you.
You wandered into a room of adults, prattling like a five year old. Have fun here if you can. My scroll button is mightier than your pen. (so to speak)
A hint:
You might have more fun over at www.imawimp.org

justin obodie| 12.1.09 @ 4:41AM

So true Ken, that stani guy is gutless. The only way to win in Afghanistan is to make a commitment; a commitment to kill all the bad guys - and their supporters. Anything else would be a distaster for freedom loving people.

To achieve this we must unite and create the most effective ways of exterminating the bad guys - and ALL their supporters.

We must support the military and introduce a draft to ensure all able bodied men, women and kids can join the fight.

Every spare penny should be spent on this war to exterminate the bad guys - and their enemies.

When we do this we will win and God will be very pleased with us.

And then we can do it all over again and again and again.....

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hanyu| 11.26.09 @ 11:23PM

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hanyu| 11.26.09 @ 11:41PM

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Ken Old Texican)| 11.27.09 @ 3:11PM

Melvin, Rocco,
First of all, thank you for your service.
Second, please know that we are still counting on you, and guys like you.
http://judgeroy.wordpress.com

Thom| 11.27.09 @ 4:28PM

“Traditional counter-insurgency doctrine requires, among other important things, a ratio of 1 soldier to 50 civilians.” I’m trying to find a single example of a successful counter-insurgency we’ve conducted?
In Vietnam, over the course of 12 years we had a higher ratio than this with just our forces let alone those of SEATO and ARVN combined probably approaching 3 soldiers to each civilian in the south. What our pre-conditions for victory in Vietnam became are same as is developing in Afghanistan, do as little as possible, build up a make believe self defense Afghanistan force and get out…. Blame someone else for the our failure.
Like Vietnam we put in enough force to make operating in country for the enemy expensive but never decisive. After years of doing this we declare victory and go home while the enemy operating in safe bastions just outside of an officially declared war zone restructure, regroup and grow waiting for the eventually moment when we tire of spending 1000 times per man what they do to stay in the field and cover all the things that need to be covered. Like Vietnam, we leave the initiative and time and place of their efforts to them.
Having had several friends vacation a couple years in Afghanistan, I have some insight in the vast scale of the country and shear buffoonery of trying to circle the wagons as a way to win this. Not wishing to sound like a broken record the salient problem is still the same as it was in Korea and Vietnam. We don’t have the forces to fight this kind of war offensively and thus will typically lose having wasted valuable lives in vain every time. The 300 Spartan’s lives would have been lost in vain had their sacrifice not rallied a nation to step up to the plate and meet the problem head on. We seem to enjoy vain sacrifices since WWII.
What General Stanley McChrystal ask for was a minimum of 40,000 with upwards of 20,000 more being in the mix and this had to arrive in the near term not mid to late next year. He is on record that 100,000 won’t help if the wrong approach is taken. He knows we don’t have the forces required to win this and he knows that anything less than what he has asked for will just delay the obvious a little longer. He has put his hopes on the same failed theory of counter-insurgency I can’t find a single successful example of because he understands doing what is required to win is not in the cards. Major General Garrison made the same call in Somalia when he faced not getting the forces he thought he needed. We know how that turned out and today we spend millions a day on anti-piracy patrols off Somalia because we cut and run.
Far too many people with advanced degrees in things not related to fighting and winning wars have bought into this false premise that technology can replace ground forces in conventional war. Like the children’s game of rock, scissors and paper, each component of warfare has a strength and weakness that something else must compliment. Time and time again fools rush in where angels fear to tread…….making this point over and over.
If McChrystal does not get what he requested, I would hope he has the integrity to do the right thing and resign. Given the air head at the top of the chain of command his hands will be tied regardless of number of forces he receives for sure.

canuckistani| 11.27.09 @ 5:56PM

Name one war that America won on it's own? Maybe Japan, and we broke the moral hymen when you incinerated Nagasake and Hiroshima. Everywhere else has been a war of choice and accompanying dubious goals. Afghanistan is a transport link to the gas and oil of the caspian states. That's it.
Say it loudly and clearly we need the stuff before the chinese get it, and americans will buy in. Bush met with the Taliban before 9/11, the Pakistanis had diplomatic relations with them and Rumsfeld was the oil bagman for years, shaking hands with any despot that needed a photo for the company photo album. The 9/11 baddies were Saudi, with Saudi money and Saudi support. Start there.
A tamed Afghanistan means cheap gas and oil and a safe supply of heroine for our American snoozing masses. There ain't another reason to be there. Build the strategy around those goals.

Thom| 11.27.09 @ 7:17PM

Canuckistani, you’ve been reading too many posts on conspiracy sites to have an objective view any longer. Look at a map, Afghanistan is land locked, primarily a large West Virginia for terrain and everything going in or out is 4x expensive to move. Now add a feudal system on top of this, continuous civil war and no one could afford to keep a pipeline of either gas or oil flowing through this place. Afghanistan has nothing nobody wants which is exactly why the bad guys based there in the first place.

Richard Baker| 11.27.09 @ 5:35PM

Thom:
Friends vacation in Afghanistan? Straaange friends you have. Why not the main hotel in Mogadishu, instead? Or how about Uganda?

Thom| 11.27.09 @ 7:10PM

Richard, I use that term because the bulk of the people I know that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan both in and out of uniform refer to it as a “vacation” due to the relative abstract nature of being in the FOB one minute vs. being out in the bush the next. It is my way of simply pointing out we aren’t serious about “war” and winning it in terms that makes our sacrifice meaningful at the end of the trail. Most I knew that served, more than one vacation in these places have separated themselves from that occupation as they have determined what they are doing is ultimately going to be in vain…. their words not mine.

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.27.09 @ 7:32PM

Well Thom, you and .......stani are on the same page. You are just as ignorant as he is.
I just know you and your "veteran" friends would enjoy knowing "Served in Viet Nam Kerry".

One question: "What is this "our" sacrifice crud?
Lying little arse pimple. Heh.

Thom| 11.27.09 @ 8:15PM

Ken, back off on the Bud ok. Flying low over the rooftops in a Little Bird to guard a VIP convoy and running into to two belt fed MGs in the middle of Baghdad that results in 4 dead is what I would call a sacrifice. Taking three in the plates in the Moug back in 1993 while being outnumbered 10 to 1 is what I call sacrifice. Taking fire from inside the FOB from friendly Iraqis or taking mortar rounds night after night because counter battery fire is disallowed because of collateral damage concerns, being posted in an isolated outpost where you can be attacked from 360 and above and nearly overrun after a two hour wait for air assets that aren’t available all fall in the category of not serious.
As for Kerry, my friends would shoot him on sight under the right circumstances and location. I wouldn’t waste the ammo. There are more gratifying ways.
As for sacrifice Ken, what is it risking your life for nothing in return but to be brought up on charges you misused a prisoner or broke some lawyer rule in the heat of battle you don’t understand? Try being out in the bush trying to protect an air head from State and get into the shi…t and have 3 of your four M4s jam and then have to rely on an 9mm handgun. Try going down in a MI-8 at high altitude in the middle of the night and have to wait till the next morning for help to arrive. The MI-8s go where the Blackhawks can’t. That’s normal life in Afghanistan.
I served when it was safer to wear a uniform overseas than in the states. A lot of my generation has their names on a black wall in Washington DC and Vietnam is still communist the last time I looked, as is North Korea. Between those two, 100,000 deaths in vain in my opinion. Everyone knows about the number of military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan but few every even heard of the hundreds of private security personnel that have died in both places doing the job we don’t have the military forces to do. Try operating under State Department rules of engagement and limited to the arms they allow and see how you think “Lying little arse pimple” goes over Ken.

Martin Owens| 11.27.09 @ 9:11PM

For better or worse, we are past the point of no return in Afghanistan. Some critics cite the fact that the Soviet Union wound up withdrawing, as proof that we should withdraw now.

Whatever we should have done, however, it is now unmistakable that we have inherited Britain's imperial mantle- at least the part that involves wearing a T-shirt with a bull's-eye on it.

We have already seen, from our own Vietnam experience, and from the Russian experience in Afghanistan, what comes from withdrawal.

when we left Vietnam, it led to the killing fields of Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos. We will never know how many innocent people were done to death when the Liberals got their wish and Southeast Asia was "liberated".

The Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan was the beginning of the end for the Soviet empire itself. The Taliban/ Al Qaeda/Shaheed/Mujahedin came to believe that enough resistance would lead to the collapse of the other side.

If We, by abandoning Afghanistan, should repeat the error of the Soviets, the results for us will be much more stern. Pakistan will inevitably fall, and that means, past all doubt, that one or more of their nukes will fall into the hands of you-know-who.

Which inevitably means: coming to a neighborhood near you.

We got to do what we got to do... and do it soon enough to make a difference.

Thom| 11.27.09 @ 9:24PM

Martin Owens, I agree. I don’t think the current occupant of the WH will be willing to do what is required however. His domestic agenda is his primary priority and he would have to put that aside to fund what is required. Both Iraq and Afghanistan will suffer the same fate if we don’t hold them together and like it or not we will probably be alone there within five years. Once we pull our combat brigades out by the fall of 2010 in Iraq I would expect Iran to fund a move to de-stable Iraq again. Between the 200,000 we have stationed in both places now, we can not maintain both places with that small a number of forces. We can’t maintain a peace time rotation (1 out , 2 back) with the number of forces we have and increase Afghanistan and maintain Iraq at the same time. Something is going to have to give, what I don’t know but Pakistan as you say is the ultimate goal for the other side in all this.

Mandarin Chinese Online| 11.28.09 @ 4:34AM

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Melvin| 11.28.09 @ 9:59AM

My goodness, I seemed to have missed a rather good row yesterday evening.
Many of the posts were offered allot of insight, in what should be done in Afghanistan ergo the middle east in general I suppose.
There is no simple solution, but that is why when the powers that be commit this nation to war, all other lesser means of diplomacy have failed and there isn't absolutely no choice but to engage in a conflict of arms.
It would be great if all those above who have posted yesterday could meet in a great room with a roaring fireplace, and an ample supply of Brandy could engage in a lively debate.
I have learned much from those who regularly post here at American Spectator as well of those who pop in now and then.

Fist of the Fleet| 11.28.09 @ 10:19AM

We have traded space for time in 2 far away 3rd world shit holes. The homeland is still not ready. Sacrifices made by many are still ignored by the few. Wait and see, Afghanistan will be sacrificed for votes on the Health Care reform bill.

Richard Baker| 11.28.09 @ 12:47PM

Thom:
I figured your post was a reference to those who've served in and out of uniform there. Some of the places I served in during my service had my friends wondering about me, as well. The comments in your response sound suspiciously like those from folks who served in SE Asia and who wondered what in Hell we were doing there if not to win. Seems our National leadership is lost at sea on this issue.

Thom| 11.28.09 @ 1:47PM

Richard, you are partly (mostly) correct but my comments are not limited to Vietnam beyond the fact that we lost there and tens of thousands died in vain. Pre surge in Iraq there was over a division equivalent of private security contractors in Iraq along with the 135,000 uniformed personnel and other 3 letter government agency personnel. In Afghanistan when some of my friends vacationed there, there wasn’t over 20,000 US uniformed personnel. Most were logistics with the rest being part 10th Mountain or one of the airborne/assault brigades rotating in along with SF. Most of the Afghanistan military training was done by contractors and other 3 letter government agency personnel using third rate former Warsaw Pact light weapons. Most of the equipment used by non US uniformed personnel was Russian. AN-12s and MI-8 were about the only thing the Afghans had left that worked and I’ve got a picture of an AN-124 on the runway somewhere in Afghanistan used to bring in spare parts and supplies for the “local” Afghanistan government. What most people reading this don’t understand about Afghanistan is that most of it looks like Arizona and New Mexico but several thousand feet higher mean elevation. That adds all sorts of operational problems and difficulties that no number of 8 million dollar Predators is going to overcome. That Afghanistan has no national GDP to pay for anything with outside of Opium and beautiful wool blend rugs, it shouldn’t be too hard a stretch for anyone with an open mind to figure out that after 8 years of trying to grow a National Armed forces there their total force is still less than 60,000 and that plus all the Western forces there can’t seem to get a handle on a rag tag force of light infantry that has no industrial base or infrastructure to support one. Someone is supporting the Taliban else they couldn’t pull off what they have.
It also seems lost on some that while we routed the 45, 000 man Taliban force in 2001 with 15,000 men of the Northern Alliance and some SF thrown in for good measure along with air support, the bulk of that force got away and has been biding its time where we won’t go (just like Vietnam). With nearly 200,000 NATO, US and Afghan forces today and the Taliban running amok pretty much where it wants what’s wrong with this picture? Even with the bulk of the NATO forces being worthless, we still have several times the forces we took down Afghanistan with in 2001 with. Anyone up on the history our 12 year war in Vietnam would have predicted what is happening now. Some people can’t see the forest for the trees no matter how hard you try to reveal it to them. Since I have no skin in the game I’m free to speak my mind.
Afghanistan is not suited for heavy mechanized units. Transporting such there and supporting would make doing the same in Iraq look like a bargain. We have limited numbers of light forces we can send there. The Marines are as always thrown in because they are the only fully integrated mobile assault force that can support itself for a limited amount of time. We are wasting Marine assets keeping them there for an extended length of time. As I said at the top of this thread and before our lack of conventional forces creates all kinds of compromises that ultimately undercut our efforts. No matter how sharp our spear is, it is only as good over the long haul as the shaft that supports it and our shaft is both long and thin these days.
While old Ken of Texas there doesn’t seem to get the message here, my veteran Seals, Delta, Seabees, etc in their late 30s, 40s and some in their early 50s have gotten tired of being deployed every other year to the same shit hole with even more restrictions on ROE. My private contractor friends, the bulk of who are ex military and many SF have also gotten the word and would like to get to know or rebuild their families. The same trigger puller/operators are bearing the brunt of this mess having been deployed going on 5 times in 8 years to just mark time in a place where the top brass doesn’t seem to know how to speak truth to power. That message has worn out its welcome mat. Americans will risk everything at times for something of tangible value and most of the time for even abstract value.
It stands to reason that if it is safer in a FOB in one of these shit holes than say Ft. Hood and the top people in the National Command Authority won’t call it what went on at Ft. Hood what it was then there is something seriously wrong with this picture. Having went through this mess during my generation’s lost war and having spent some decades spreading my knowledge base I’m here to tell you that there is something very wrong with this picture and the downsides are going to be significant if someone does not step up to the plate.

Richard Baker| 11.28.09 @ 10:41PM

Thom:
I had an idea that since WWII the political leadership has become frightened as a result of the rapidity and massive numbers of deaths that occurred as a result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It seems that they have been reticent to use our substantial military power to finish our enemies off since then and that decision has held our forces back in too many wars/actions with rare exception. Patton also believed, and in which you and I share his belief, that using the most combat power as rapidly as possible without letup should be the strategy. The unwillingness to do this is coming to a head with regards to Iran. Carter ran the Shah off and allowed Ayatollah Khomeini to return from his haven in France, which amazed us during my '70s service, and our unwillingness to stop these jokers means that soon they'll have a nuclear capability. In SW Asia, that reticence has hamstrung our effort to fight these Moslem killers all too often. All this sounds all way too familiar from the Vietnam days. Our guys are tired after multiple deployments and there will be a consequence to that soon. Sorry that you guys have as leaders too many, such as GEN Casey and GEN Odierno, who learned nothing after Vietnam but ticket-punching and politicking. God Help the United States of America.

Thom| 11.29.09 @ 6:19PM

Richard Baker, the world after WWII has become overly complex and convoluted with regard to what you speak. The guys who fought at LX XRAY and LX Albany in 1965 in the Ia Drang valley in 1965, the 101st at Hamburger Hill, the various units that fought for Pork Chop Hill could all relate to our lack of understanding about war’s terrible cost and need to make what we do in such regard worth the effort. In all cases sighted above we were engaged in defensive war and trying to attrition our enemy by drawing them into fights where we could bring superior firepower (not superior numbers) to bear. That approach almost gave us another Alamo in Afghanistan back in August.
Part of this mindset comes from the belief developed during the 1950s that nuclear deterrent could prevent general war. Many still think we can still deter our way out of fights. I think the jury is in on when deterrent fails you have to step up to the plate and get ‘re done. Most have not grasped that yet. The dead from 9/11 are but a footnote in our history even now. My father, who served in both WWII and Korea would be alarmed at the cavalier attitude we have about what took place on 9/11 vs. what he responded to in WWII and Korea. An open mind would give credit to a bunch of yahoos taking advantage of our own naïve view of the world before 9/11 and our institutionalized stupidity (born of corporate liability lawyer syndrome) regarding how we trained ourselves to respond to what is essentially air piracy. Look at how we respond to piracy at sea? It’s all business so to speak. Even Thomas Jefferson, the Dove, understood he had to respond to the piracy of his time. He did not micromanage the mission the sent our frigates on.
The brass at the top have always been political to some degree. That goes with the job for the most part. What is lacking is integrity among the men at the top these days. I’ve spoke to the fact that Mac Author was wrong to publically rebuke his Commander and Chief but the thrust of his arguments including nuclear weapons was completely on solid ground when you remember it was Truman who didn’t blink an eyelash on ordering two atomic weapons dropped on Japan. It was Truman’s decision to rush into Korea without adequate forces and arms, he is the one the passed the buck to the UN. 40,000 dead or missing Koran vets so that we can buy Hyundai today. I have nothing against South Korea being free and its products just that North Korea still exists and is ruled by a nutcase regime and nuclear armed. Mac Author was right in his thinking from a military point of view. Truman’s failure became a strategy of containments that ultimately lead to another failed war in Southeast Asia.
As I said it is complex but from a military art point of view we keep making the same mistakes and not facing up to it. Some of that responsibility rest with our armed service command structure and it’s emphasis on political science rather that the art of war. Add to this our cultures general ignorance of realistic military capability and one feeds the other. As I’ve said, we don’t have enough forces to cover the bases we keep trying to cover and the more our nuclear deterrent is made less viable the higher the risk of a general conventional war is. It stands to reason that if we don’t have the forces we don’t and won’t have the equipment for such a war either. Our industrial base has been shrinking since 1988, we aren’t replacing our equipment even on a one to one basis and all those that claim we can do more with less keep being proved wrong in low intensity conflicts where we have complete and total air and naval dominance coupled with the best equipped and trained forces in the world. So what is wrong with all this? The obvious answer would be the correct one.

electronic| 11.30.09 @ 4:09AM

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Richard Baker| 11.30.09 @ 7:09PM

Thom:
The two uses of the atomic bomb and the development of the hydrogen device, I believe, caused the political class to think that all out war, and war in general, was an impossibility that should be avoided at all costs. Since WWII, we have appeared hesitant to commit the power that we have had. In High School, I remember hearing the LBJ administration say that we didn't want to anger Red China and get into it with them and being fearful of the outcome of events should they become involved in Vietnam. You and I can recount chapter and verse since 1945 when we held back for fear of what_____ (fill in the blank) would do on the battlefield, so we'd better be careful. I guess the best way to say it is that we have become reknowned for pulling our punches, a recent example being that Bush 41 stopped the ground offensive in the 1st Gulf War and left Saddam Hussein in power to continue to slaughter his people and threaten his neighbors. This made necessary ANOTHER Gulf war to depose Hussein. Just a theory of mine, of course.

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