The Obama Watch
Obama’s Big Government Gamble
Americans are open to government intervention during the economic crisis, but then they want it to butt out. This spells troubles for Obama’s long-term standing.
The more than 300,000 Americans who attended tea parties across the country this week to protest the explosion of spending in Washington will not deter President Obama from pursuing the most ambitious expansion of the role of government since the Great Society.
For now, Obama has little reason to worry about the pesky opposition, because he still enjoys the support of a comfortable majority of Americans. His approval rating hovers above 60 percent, and a new Gallup poll showed that 71 percent of the public has a “great deal” or “fair amount” of confidence that he will “recommend the right thing for the economy.” In contrast, the Republican leaders in Congress only enjoyed the support of 38 percent of respondents.
Conservatives also got a scare last week when a Rasmussen poll found that only 53 percent of American adults favored capitalism over socialism.
Yet lurking beneath all of these numbers is a longer-term skepticism about the role of government that has the potential to seriously damage Obama’s political standing over time. The results of a USA Today/Gallup poll released on Wednesday were a lot more mixed for Obama and proponents of big government. While it showed majorities support Obama’s housing plan, the stimulus package, and more regulation of financial institutions, only 39 percent of those polled said they supported bank and auto bailouts. And while most Americans (52 percent) believe that bigger government is necessary during the current economic crisis, by a 3 to 1 margin they said they favored cutting back the expansion of government once the crisis is over.
Additionally, questions found that 55 percent of Americans think that Obama’s economic proposals spend too much money, and by a 50 percent to 42 percent margin Americans say government is “trying to do too many things that should be left to individuals.”
Taken together, these results suggest that while Americans are willing to tolerate a greater role for government in the short-term, they don’t want to spend their lives in the shadow of a leviathan state.
The reason that this poses a problem for Obama is that the central argument for his domestic agenda is that he doesn’t merely want to address the current crisis, but wants to reshape the American economy and drastically expand the role of the federal government in people’s lives.
Thus, Obama is making a huge bet on big government. He’s betting that his spending spree will stimulate the economy, get credit flowing again, and revive the housing market; that his energy polices will yield new alternative fuels that will clean the environment and reduce our dependence on foreign oil; that throwing more federal money into education will improve the economic prospects of the younger generation; and that he can do all of these things while limiting our debt, keeping taxes low, and tackling entitlements.
In his speech on the economy delivered at Georgetown University on Tuesday, he lectured the audience about the need to get serious about addressing entitlement reform. But even the Washington Post was skeptical.
“Many of the savings identified in the president’s budget are phony, and the real ones are used to offset the costs of his new spending increases or tax cuts,” the Post editorialized. The newspaper also noted that “the health-care savings he has identified are all directed to new health-care spending, and, even then, they cover only a fraction of the likely costs of a health-care bill — of what would become yet another entitlement program.”
In fact, the cost of implementing the type of health-care plan that Obama proposed during his campaign has been estimated at roughly $1.5 trillion over ten years. The only way Obama would be able to seriously reduce costs of medical care under a government-controlled system would be to ration care to the sick and slash reimbursement rates for doctors, which will trigger longer waiting times for patients. While Europeans may be used to this, it is harder to imagine Americans standing for it.
All told, Obama’s agenda is projected to more than double the public debt to $17.3 trillion by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office, equal to a staggering 82.4 percent of the economy.
Obama will be hard-pressed to pay off that debt without either massive, broad-based tax increases, or printing enough money to pay off the debt, which would trigger massive inflation.
So while, like any gambler, Obama may be having a good run at the moment, the long-term odds are working against him.
About the Author
Philip Klein is The American Spectator’s Washington correspondent. You can follow him on Twitter at: http://twitter.com/Philipaklein
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Pat| 4.17.09 @ 6:52AM
The problem with the long-term odds working against him is that by that time, it will be too late. He will get everything passed that he wants; it's virtually impossible to undo something the government has already begun.
I truly believe the tide is turning in this country towards socialism. The Obama administration has made capitalism a dirty word, business is the villain, and many uninformed people are buying into his vision.
The horse is out of the barn. As he said himself, he won.
Melvin| 4.17.09 @ 7:21AM
The horse might be out of the barn, but it hasn't won the Trifecta.
Think of it this way. When George Washington was standing on the banks of the freezing Potomac River he was probably thinking to himself, "You know I'm a wealthy landowner, I am of good standing within the community and the Crown, I don't have to be standing here getting ready to fight a battle that the pundits said that the Continental Army couldn't win. My fellow Countrymen are tired, hungry, and demoralized. But the yearning for freedom is stronger than personal comforts, wants, or needs."
Then George turned to his men taking a deep breath in the frigid air and said, " Boys, lets go kick some Hessian butt."
Well, I don't know about the last statement being of any historical value, but it sure sounded good didn't it?
The point that I want to make is. This nation's enemies foreign and domestic have seriously underestimated Americans time and time again. It takes a earth shattering event to get us going but once we do, Katey bar the door.
Barrack Obama is no different, he is human, and he can bleed politically, despite of the aura of invincibility that the propaganda media network portrays him as.
We Conservatives might be considered minute and significant and only worthy of vulgar comments of the media outlets, but you know what...so was the Continental Army the night before they crossed the Potomac River. The events that night and the following year completely changed the whole ball game.
The Conservatives have not crossed our Potomac yet, but we are Marshalling our numbers and forming for battle. We are not yet strong enough but our numbers grow larger every day as more Americans who did vote for Obama are beginning to see through his facade of a Socialist Utopia and dislike what they see.
We are the productive of this Nation and many Americans are blinded by Obama's siren song, but so was the majority of loyalists who wanted to remain loyal with the British Crown, but the minority of freedom loving Americans persevered and finally won the day, and made this Country what it is today.
My fellow freedom fighters, keep your focus and the belief of our Country's founding principles and march forward by keeping the pressure on the Socialists and we will win.
Bill| 4.17.09 @ 7:31AM
A very jolly letter, Melvin, and I certainly hope (and indeed believe) you're correct. But wasn't it the Delaware River?
Melvin| 4.17.09 @ 7:37AM
I'm terribly sorry, I'm just a product of government run education and Bill is absolutely correct, George Washington crossed the Delaware River. I have no idea in why I said, the Potomac, especially after read "1776". But ya got to admit the Potomac sounded better.
Maybe I should have paid better attention in Mrs. Morrels Social Studies class?
My humble and profuse apologies, I prostrate myself before in humble apologies many times over.
Thanks Bill for catching that grievous error.
Bob| 4.17.09 @ 7:55AM
Philip -- the reason it is difficult to estimate future deficits is that economic growth plays a big role. If we have a standard "V" shaped recovery leading to annualized real GDP growth of over 3%, then Obama is in good shape and will get through this with flying colors. If real GDP growth is under 2.5%, no matter how much we cut, there is a problem.
Secondly, I've run thousands of surveys in my life, and unless you get down to specifics, overall results are not predictive of behavior. So, if you ask people if government should be smaller, they will agree. However, if you say do you want government to be smaller by cutting Social Security and Medicare, they will say "no". It's that old saying, the devil is in the details.
The irony here is that I don't think Republicans can get away with entitlement reform because they are perceived as the party that favors the rich. However, Obama, being a liberal, may be able to do something with entitlements. Let's hope so.
Big J| 4.17.09 @ 8:01AM
Obama's narcissisim will be his undoing. Right now, he and his radical counterparts in office are riding high on the horse, doing as they please. After all, they won the election, the people have spoken, and so on. Underestimating the will of the American people and their love for freedom is a big mistake being made by Republicans and Democrats alike.
It really did my heart good to see the hundreds of thousands of hard-working Americans across the country from all walks of life expressing their right to free speech. I was proud to be a part of it, and pay absolutely zero attention to the lefty's that have attempted to nullify it. Just think if the 15th would have fallen on a weekend, when the productive folks could have actually gotten off work! I am convinced the attendance would easily have doubled. We shall see on Independance Day.
Melvin, don't feel to bad about the error. A product of the government school system myself, I did not even catch it until Bill mentioned it. You are correct, Potomac sounded better!
I'll cross any river, any day. The time has come, and we are not alone!
WRTolkas| 4.17.09 @ 8:07AM
Dear Melvin,
I also caught that you wrote the wrong geographical location for the river (I'm a Colonial Era re-enactor and a veteran. Does that make me a terrorist?). However, that can be forgiven as your comments are excellent.
Thank you for the thought and editorial. By the way, remember this April 18th and 19th. A few good men from Massachusetts committed treason in 1775. Some of them were veterans of the French and Indian Wars. On the Concord North Bridge, the moment before they pulled the triggers of their muskets, these men were subjects of King George the Third. The instant they pulled those triggers, they were Americans.
Regards,
WRTolkas
Big J| 4.17.09 @ 8:10AM
Bob,
I actually agree with you. There, I said it. That wasn't so hard now, was it?
You make an excellent point about the projected vs. actual economic growth. Als0, the polling issue. I would add, however that inflation (or stagflation) is a huge factor in the equation. At the rate with which they are printing money at the moment, I see it as completely unavoidable.
Bob| 4.17.09 @ 8:44AM
Big J,
I am not an ideologue, I respond to data and reason. That's why I push so hard on the "tax cuts are not stimulative" issue because I can find NO data to support that contention. I can manipulate data to prove practically anything. But if you actually use graphs, go back far enough to determine trends before AND after, adjust for inflation, and look for corroborating data (i.e., economic loss when you have tax increases), the data just doesn't support the conclusion pushed by ideologues. Likewise, government spending doesn't have a major effect on economic growth either.
Regarding inflation, this tends to be a relative measure even if we print money. Since this is a worldwide recession -- and many countries are in worse shape than us, we will probably see some inflation, but I doubt whether it will be very large as other countries also print money to hold up their economies.
In terms of debt repayment, a little inflation is not that bad. China is extremely worried about the U.S. debt they carry if inflation takes hold because will will be paying off those debts with inflated dollars. That's why China will do everything in their power to keep our inflation down.
Melvin| 4.17.09 @ 9:11AM
Well, Dave Mathews I didn't know that you were such an expert on this term, "Teabagging," that was used by Anderson Cooper.
Maybe next time in town, I'll look you up and you can give me a demonstration of what a good Liberal is.
Anthony| 4.17.09 @ 9:19AM
The disconnect and gulf between liberals and conservatives in our society today has, I fear, never been greater. Watching the propaganda outlets for the Democrats, the MSM's hysterical reactions to these tea parties was more than surreal, they were plain frightening.
CNN was so over the top, one wonders if their "reporters" forgot to take their meds. One idiot reporter described these peaceful gatherings as "unfit for family viewing" hence the need to stop the coverage. Yet this same CNN will give generous coverage to "Gay Pride" parades, with all their accompying costumes and outlandish behaviors.
Given this divide, I fear that things will only get worse, especially when our own government, the DHS, deems fit to label over 1/2 of all Americans right wing extremists. Who would have predicted it would come to this?
Sawdust| 4.17.09 @ 9:20AM
Yes, Dave certainly seems to be fixated on "teabagging", I had to look it up. I'll bet he's an ace at the practice.
TennesseeVolunteer| 4.17.09 @ 9:25AM
It shows you how low the MSM and their willing syncophants are that they will take a time honored event like the Boston Tea Party and turn it into something dirty and sexually deviant.
For the MSM to parrot 'their little joke' on national TV and not be brought to task by all men and women of good hearts shows just how far we as a Nation have to go to become the Judeo-Christian Nation as we were founded. The one thing I do know is Patriots of all politics are now understanding that we have to Change back to the Nation founded under:
*And to the Republic for which it stands
* One Nation
* Under God
* Indivisible
* With liberty and justice for all
Robert Rosencrans| 4.17.09 @ 9:34AM
Obama has traded a lot of money for a little prosperity now, and even less prosperity in the future.
Gill O'Teen| 4.17.09 @ 9:35AM
I do find it interesting that the lemmings on the left take such glee calling people "teabaggers", yet they are rabid fans of blarney fwank and "gay rights".
Robert Rosencrans| 4.17.09 @ 9:41AM
A good article about how the Obama White House is in the pocket of banks, or are totally incompetent. Take your choice.
http://finance.yahoo.com/techticker/article/233486/Stiglitz:-People-Who-Designed-Bailout-Are-in-Wall-Street's-Pocket
Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz continues to hammer away at the Obama administration and his appointees over how they've gone about the bailout so far.
In an interview with Bloomberg, Stiglitz specifically criticized the White House's connections to Wall Street.
“All the ingredients they have so far are weak, and there are several missing ingredients,” Stiglitz said in an interview yesterday. The people who designed the plans are “either in the pocket of the banks or they’re incompetent.”
The Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, isn’t large enough to recapitalize the banking system, and the administration hasn’t been direct in addressing that shortfall, he said. Stiglitz said there are conflicts of interest at the White House because some of Obama’s advisers have close ties to Wall Street.
“We don’t have enough money, they don’t want to go back to Congress, and they don’t want to do it in an open way and they don’t want to get control” of the banks, a set of constraints that will guarantee failure, Stiglitz said.
He went on to rehash a lot of conventional cricism, such as the revolving door between Wall Street and Washington and the fact that a company like PIMCO, which is a big bank bondholder, is the most likely to sign up for the PPIP.
For more coverage, see The Business Insider.
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Yahoo! Finance User - Friday April 17, 2009 09:08AM EDT
Not a surprise considering Wall Street gave FAR MORE campaign contributions to Dems than Republicans. Follow the $ from Wall Street and the Banks.
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catinabank - Friday April 17, 2009 09:11AM EDT
Can somebody explain me what is going on with bondholders? Yesterday it was Mr. ,’Ackman, who has been urging General Growth to file for bankruptcy protection, (and did) described it as "a great company" with "phenomenal assets" at a conference on April 2’. Today it is “Carl Icahn and private-equity fund Oaktree Capital Management have bought up hundreds of millions of dollars of MGM bonds and have told the troubled casino giant it should quickly overhaul its massive debts in bankruptcy.”
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Yahoo! Finance User - Friday April 17, 2009 09:26AM EDT
OMG someone slams Obama and gets published!!!!! Yup, I just looked out the window and saw a flying pig.... He must be a Republican shill.
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existenceexists - Friday April 17, 2009 09:30AM EDT
Stiglitz is a hard-core Socialist. I see no reason to take his views seriously.
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Robert Rosencrans| 4.17.09 @ 9:50AM
Sorry about the above post, I thought it was cleaned up. But read on, about the secrecy in the Obama administration, the same administration who promised transparency.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Stop-stalling-and-show-us-the-bailout-books-43088037.html
Unwarranted secrecy regarding the largest disbursement of public funds in U.S. history continues in the executive branch. So Congress should finally exercise its oversight authority and find out where every last bailout dollar has been spent. Three major news organizations – Bloomberg News, Fox Business News, and The New York Times - had to file lawsuits against the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve Board after they were refused bailout documents requested under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). All three were stiffed by an administration that failed to deliver on a promise of more government transparency and accountability. In response to its lawsuit seeking compensation agreements between the government and two of the largest bailout recipients, Fox finally received 10,096 pages of heavily redacted documents from Treasury showing that “virtually all the details of the bailout were worked out among a handful of lawyers.” Good. Congress just needs a handful of subpoenas to get to the bottom of it.
All three news organizations still have FOIA lawsuits pending against the Fed. The Times suit, filed March 23, seeks documents concerning the Fed's decision to invoke emergency powers under the Federal Reserve Act in relation to the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) and the $787 billion Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. The paper also wants copies of all contracts with institutions that qualified for mind-boggling amounts of federal dollars in order to determine whether taxpayers were adequately protected.
The Sunlight Foundation received four names in response to its FOIA request seeking the identity of senior Treasury officials who are also members of the TARP Investment Committee – a small group that makes big decisions about which banks get how much of our money. The Government Accountability Office has already criticized them for not being sufficiently transparent in disbursing almost half of the TARP funds. Which is why Secretary Timothy Geithner and the small group of Treasury officials involved should be summoned to Capitol Hill, put under oath, and forced to tell the American people the truth - including a clear explanation of why banks that didn’t want TARP funds were forced to accept them, and why some banks are not allowed to give TARP money back.
Robert Rosencrans| 4.17.09 @ 9:55AM
In the final analysis, here is what big government always brings. Corruption. The Obama administration is one of the most corrupt in our nation's history. Obama selected these crooks even though he knew about their problems. In the meantime, never forget it was Steve Ratner who asked Wagoner to resign at GM.
The Obama administration has evolved into an administration reeking of insider dealing and cheats.
http://gawker.com/5215802/a-scandal-steven-rattner-couldnt-hide-from-barack-obama
He could blame his investment firm's failures on the economy. His wife's DWI could be covered up by media pals. But the Obama Administration's auto-bailout adviser can't hide a bribery investigation.
Steven Rattner, the former New York Times reporter and Quadrangle Group co-founder, is believed by federal investigators to have directed Quadrangle to pay more than $1 million in kickbacks to obtain business from the New York State pension, the Times and Wall Street Journal are reporting.
The Times didn't mention Rattner's connection to the paper in its front-page story, even though it did tout the connection in February, when Rattner was appointed bailout adviser.
Perhaps the paper is a bit embarrassed at how tawdry the whole scheme sounds: Rattner's firm, through an affiliate, paid $90,000 to the brother of the state's deputy controller for rights to his low-budget film "Chooch," according to Securities and Exchange Commission documents. It then got a $100 million investment from the state pension fund and subsequently paid an additional $1.1 million to a political consultant.
The Treasury Department said Rattner notified it about the investigation "during the transition." How much did Rattner tell the administration? It's hard to fathom why the president would want a public-funds-disbursement adviser who is under investigation for improperly obtaining the disbursement of public funds.
Derek P| 4.17.09 @ 10:05AM
David Matthews:
I see that you took to heart your marching orders handed down from the Uber Pr!ck Olbermann and Her Supreme Goofballness Maddow. You repeated almost to the word the drivel both of them have been spewing. If the protesters are so insignificant and marginal, why all the huffing and puffing? You f**king moron........
Tim| 4.17.09 @ 10:21AM
Hey David Matthews,
A handfull of patriots in the 1770's got together and with a very strong will and desire and a few friends kicked the British out of the Land and formed a new country.
Now if you want to continue to dismiss average American folks as a bunch of disgruntled Fox News watching nut jobs please be my guest.
But don't blame me or anyone on this forum when your socialist political friends are all kicked out of office and people like you are tarred and feathered and some even jailed for trampling on our Constitution.
"Provable Treason" is still punishable by death....and that goes for anyone found guilty of such a crime.......anybody regardless of Race, Color, or Creed!
Enjoy your weekend.....
Phil| 4.17.09 @ 10:23AM
David Mathews, our Lord had you in mind when he stated in Romans 1 v 22, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
Geoff| 4.17.09 @ 10:40AM
It is very interesting how one side will talk about the issues and the other likes to make it personal and call people names. David I think you may have picked up the Rachel Madcow disease. Lets get back to the subject at hand and put the substance back into the statements. Its OUR country were talking about left or right so lets see if we can put our heads together and get something good accomplished.
Paul Gut| 4.17.09 @ 10:52AM
The auto industry is one of the largest causes of cancer. Every gas pump has a sign on it that says so. The current auto industry is corrupt, controls congress and does things that hurt our society. It is bad. The NEW auto industry is comprised of 48 new electric car companies. They have been stopped, blockaded and delayed at every turn by Detroit, the oil lobby and elected officials that are in their pockets. The NEW auto industry can replace every single job that the old auto industry is losing! But congress is delaying letting the new auto industry get started and the gap in the cross over is going to cost hundreds of millions to our economy. There are over 6 federal funds to launch the NEW car industry but all applicants to those funds have been frozen in their tracks, some for almost 5 years. An early stage venture cannot afford to wait even weeks, much less months or years. The bad guys know that they can kill off every new car company simply by saying: “Oh yes we will review that right quick” but then just putting them in a drawer and waiting until all if their staff quits from inaction and non-payment. No VC or bank will fund a car company, they do not understand them and so they shun them. The only way a new car company can get funded is through federal funds and the good-old-boys know this. If you are a citizen, you need to call and write your elected officials and remind them of the results of inaction: they will get voted out of office and their political party will fail… unless you like getting cancer…
Derek P| 4.17.09 @ 11:03AM
Paul Gut:
Derek P| 4.17.09 @ 11:31AM
Paul Gut: They deleted my previous post so I will just state this: riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...........keep up the good work.
AlecB| 4.17.09 @ 11:40AM
Speaking as one who attended a local tea party, I can assure you that the government really should fear us Right Wing Extremists. Speaking for myself, I fit almost the entire profile. I'm a retired US Navy CPO, a staunch conservative who believes in limited federal government. And I fully support My Governor, Rick Perry's comments regarding the fed and the 10th amendment. Oh, and yes, I'm armed...with a voter registration card! (I suspect all 300, 000 attendees were similarly armed) And, I'm not afraid to use it! By the way, just for you left wing wackenuts, I have no problem showing my state issued, photo ID at the polls. Frankly I'm not surprised that so many liberals seem so conversant with the vulgar slang version of teabagging.
Big J| 4.17.09 @ 11:49AM
AlecB: Thank you for your service, fellow Texan. I am a card carrying, voting member myself: my other card says NRA on it. I think they got me pegged on all counts listed (minus returning war vet).
Oops, gotta go. Some men in black suits are at the door!
Tim| 4.17.09 @ 12:17PM
To all my conservative friends,
when we take this country back. Please let us do ouselves a favor.
Let's purge these "Reds" out of existance....and chase them down to the ends of the earth and beyond if that's what it takes to kick their sorry behinds into yesterday.
Remember the 1950's slogan.....
The only good "Red" is a................one!
Gill O'Teen| 4.17.09 @ 1:22PM
My friends,
I sense many troubled minds in this thread. Let not your hearts be troubled. Simply say the following prayer whenever you feel your blood pressure about to explode. Repeat as needed.
obuma, grant me the serenity
To let you change the things I cannot change;
To empower you to change the things I’m too lazy to;
And I don’t need to know the difference.
With sincere apologies to Reinhold Niebuhr.
Bob| 4.17.09 @ 1:42PM
Rosencrans, you are funny. All administrations have a huge number of corrupt activities. Just Google "bush administration corruption" and have a great read. But then again, I don't expect anyone like you to be "fair and balanced". On second thought, you are every bit as "fair and balanced" as Fox News and Glenn Beck. Instead of posting those here where you are accompanied by a large number of lemmings, why don't you post them at Huffington Post. It must really task your brain to cut and paste....
The dirty little fact is that ALL politicians have connections to some people who are corrupt because politics attracts corrupt people. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to be objective.
Big Leo| 4.17.09 @ 2:23PM
Paul Gut, Your post about electric cars was fascinating, if confusing. Of course, electric cars would be a better idea if they actually worked in the real world. Unfortunately, that's where I and other people actually live. The nearest town to mine is forty miles away. The next nearest town and city is 120 miles away. When I go on vacation, I drive about a thousand miles. In town, I walk since everything is within walking distance.
So what am I supposed to do with a car whose range won't get me to the next town, much less get me back?
Charlene| 4.17.09 @ 3:44PM
Melvin,
BRAVO, on both points.
John Mutchler | 4.17.09 @ 3:58PM
And to think that I once fought for this country that we used to be...
Steve in Fla| 4.17.09 @ 4:01PM
I'd be ok with plugin hybrid cars if we could use nuclear power to charge them. I'm not about to fill every square inch of the Earth with photovoltaic cells and windmills for my energy. The thing that scares me most is today's EPA announcement regarding "warming gases". This paves the way for cap and trade which is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard of in my lifetime. It's almost time for them to start a Global Darkening movement. It looks like it's getting darker outside right now. I think we need to stop the Earth from spinning so it's not dark anymore. We have as good as a chance to do this as controlling the global temperature. Oh, wait! It's getting light outside! The is obviously evidence of Lighting Change! See, we're not full og crap after all! Oh damn, it's getting dark again! We need to spend more on eliminating Global Darkening gases!
Tim| 4.17.09 @ 4:02PM
A moment of gratitude for the poor intern who has to go through and delete all those Dave Matthews screeds.
Todd| 4.17.09 @ 4:13PM
Dismiss Robert as you may Bob, his point that the bigger and more powerful Government is, the more corrupt it becomes and the less freedom we have. You use the same tactic when you say we should not complain about budget deficits because of Bush. When a deficit goes from $300-$400 to well over $1 trillion under Obama, there is a damn good reason why people are in the streets protesting. Just how do you expect Obama to reform entitlements when we can expect to pay interest of somewhere around $1 trillion per year a decade from now? I guess he will keep the tax on SS and medicare but eliminate any benefits for anyone that happens to make a decent living. Is that the reform you are looking for Bob?
D.F.| 4.17.09 @ 4:30PM
"The only way Obama would be able to seriously reduce costs of medical care under a government-controlled system would be to ration care to the sick and slash reimbursement rates for doctors, which will trigger longer waiting times for patients. While Europeans may be used to this, it is harder to imagine Americans standing for it. "
This is disingenuous at best, completely wrong at worst. The truth is that we ALREADY have longer wait times than many countries with universal health care. Look at this:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042072.htm
That's from Business Week - not some radical left wing think tank. And - joy of joys - we get the privilege of actually paying MORE for these longer wait times too. Furthermore, the average increase in medical insurance has been increasing by more than double the rate of inflation for over a decade (and only slowed marginally in the 90's when HMO's proliferated due to the scare that Hillarycare might actually pass). Prior to that, and ever since, increases have been on the order of 6-12% a year.
Plus, our morbidity and mortality rates are rising compared to all other industrialized nations with socialized care.
Can someone please explain how waiting longer and paying more for worse outcomes is a better deal? I'm not seeing the logic - but that may be my problem: I'm asking others to be logical about this.
rdman| 4.17.09 @ 4:38PM
The Rise of the Government Class
The United States Government has become a culture of despotic bullies, tyrants and thugs. Cynically disguised as distinguished, articulate God’s gift elitists, these vacuous, narcissistic, image-oriented hypocrites emphasize symbols over substance and reality. The pursuit of excellence is being replaced by the celebration of the artificial. Politicians are less concerned with principles or the use of power for the common good than with the display of personalities and pursuit of personal power.
Politicians have become experts at deceitful duplicity, selling their calculated positions to a public to the point where We, The People can no longer tell a fabricated image from a real person. Citizen voters are so seduced by the slick package that they often do not realize that there is nothing in it… the package is the message.
The shallow values and the beguiling oratorical skills have become the norms by which everything is measured. The only guideline is the ability to gain attention… what is noticed has value. Calculated images successfully masquerade as reality. Exhibitionism and self-promotion is now acceptable as Government Class factions compete to be the winner… to be famous and celebrated.
Once elected into government, the politician embarks on an unbridled and unprincipled pursuit for power and control, incrementally eroding the private free market sector and our Constitution. They launch vicious, personal attacks to destroy any person or any organization demonstrating genuine leadership and patriotism that strives to protect our magnificent Constitution and our magnificent Country.
The root cause falls at the feet of the “Good Old Esquire’s Club” who make up the majority of the Government Class. With very few exceptions, these leftist lawyers turned career-politicians and career-bureaucrats have become despotic, partisan hacks and tyrants who now believe they are a law unto themselves, cynically living in the world of realpolitik where what matters is to prevail, regardless of their constituent’s best interests, their sworn Constitutional duties or the country.
Conscience, Dignity, Integrity, Leadership, Statesmanship, Public Service and the Lessons of History are totally absent within the emerging Government Class. The Founding Fathers must certainly be turning in their graves. Our magnificent Constitution, our magnificent Country and We, the People are in mortal danger.
We, The People are being sold a narcissistic fantasy and a cruel charade. Behind these shallow facades, there is an ulterior agenda…
The Government Class Agenda
The real agenda of these career-politicians is to create a central command and control socialist/fascist government to enslave and rule the dirty, unwashed, uneducated masses who get stuck in Iraq, then forced, under penalty of law, to pay exorbitant taxes to finance the politician’s deceitful, deceptive and evil corruption.
The tactics employed by these entrenched gangsters with law degrees are nearly identical to the rise of the Nazis in the late 1930’s, with one distinct difference. The National Socialists of Germany employed military might… this generation of Government Class thugs employ subversive socialist/fascist tactics to complicate straight forward issues with subversive double-talk, to compromise the Constitution with nebulas legal-eze trash language that means anything they want it to mean and to politically destroy anyone and anything they can’t control.
The Only Solution
Time is overdue for We, the People to tell the socialist/fascist democrats and the spineless RINOs that we’ve had enough their deceptive deceit and corruption. Its time to stand up, find these career-politician tyrants in gross violation of their Constitutional Oaths and purge them from the halls of our government.
Eliminate the Washington DC snake-pit of entrenched appeasing, expediency, placating and crab-walking despots by voting these delusional, parasitic, megalomaniac realpolitiks out of government… they are not worthy to represent We, The People of this magnificent Country.
1) Start this process by requiring your State’s Elected Representatives to convene a Constitutional Convention for the sole purpose of modifying in pertinent part, Amendment XVII to read, “Representatives and Senators of the U.S. Congress, elected by the people thereof, for two years and six years respectively for a maximum of two terms…”
2) Reject all career-politicians running for re-election… they speak with ulterior motives, hidden agendas, deceit, duplicity and deception… they have become corrupt and no longer qualified for Leadership or Statesmanship. They are, in fact, a scourge upon the land.
3) Recruit and elect true representatives of We, the People… Citizen Professionals who have demonstrated excellence in management, performance, integrity, patriotism, pride and optimism, chivalry and civility for a maximum of two terms to re-establish the public service model of our Founding Fathers… Leadership, Statesmanship, Dignity, Honor and Duty.
Summation
Over 100 years ago, the great Sioux Indian Chief Sitting Bull, after dealing with government lawyers, proclaimed with eloquent simplicity and clarity, “Whiteman Speak with Forked Tongue.”
Contemporarily stated, despite their duplicity and deviousness, the career-politician-bureaucrat may trip themselves up because part of their need for vindictive triumph includes the desire for their opposition to know who victimized them. Their need for attention may become their nemesis. However, the career-politician-bureaucrat doesn’t care. Public adoration by the unaware or condemnation and notoriety gives them the attention they crave… being admired, feared or despised affirms that they exist with godly power and control.
Robert D.
American Citizen Taxpayer
Retired Free Market Corporate Executive
Reagan Conservative
Viet Nam Combat Veteran
Bob| 4.17.09 @ 4:38PM
Todd -- if you have been through the numbers, over 80% of the future deficit in Obama's budget is due to medicare and social security, not the spending he is doing now. The people protesting do not understand the detail in the budget and Republicans do not want them to understand. I suggest you go through the budget on a spreadsheet yourself. In terms of Social Security and medicare, it should be tied to the actuarial life calculations, not a static 65. People are living longer, and we cannot have a budget that doesn't recognize that. If we don't raise the eligibility age, we become more of a welfare state -- is that what you want? The only fiscally sound way of doing this is means testing.
The problem is that most of you don't understand the budget and the fact that 53% is entitlements, 20% is military, and 9% is interest. Military is going up by 4% and entitlement and interest cannot be cut.
As to health care, Obama is right that the 17% of GDP we pay is too high to be competitive in the world. I'm not into ideological solutions. I don't care which solution we implement as long as we cut that cost down to about 10% of GDP. I suggest we have a Republican solution and a Democrat solution and put them into a few different states. Then, after 3-5 years, see what is best and go with it. Healthcare is much too complicated to be able to predicts the effects of a radical change.
Corruption in government doesn't necessarily come from size, it also comes when one party is in control of both legislative and executive branches. The Bush administration was very corrupt -- they all are because our politics depends on contributions and pay to play dynamics.
Paul| 4.17.09 @ 5:40PM
Um... Our health system needs improvement.
The average wait time to see an ER doctor in the United States is almost a hour.
http://www.blnz.com/news/2008/08/06/Average_waiting_time_nears_hour_0883.html
L. Ross| 4.17.09 @ 5:57PM
Bob,
First off, bravo. I looked up your budget numbers and they are approximately correct with my sources.
I do have a question for you, however. Why do you say that entitlements cannot be cut? I think you mean to say that they won't be cut, because they certainly can be. That is, of course, unless our imperial overlords (I mean life appointed judges) deem that it would be unconstitutional to cut entitlements. But what would means testing and rasing the age to receive Social Security be, exactly, if not a cut in entitlements?
Second thought is that perhaps the best way to begin reducing medical costs is to institute some tort reform. As long as we have ambulance chasers like John Edwards running around, raking in millions from fraudulent lawsuits, we will continue to see skyrocketing costs on our health insurance. Couple that with the need hospitals have to rape the insurance companies of their patients who have insurance to cover the treatment costs of those who don't have insurance, and is it any wonder that insurance rates are zooming upwards.
On the other hand, most of the bleeding edge research in the medical field is done here in the US, and the world has had life expectancies grow by decades in the past 50 years. Who is to say that we aren't getting our money's worth?
Finally, I do agree that one party control of the government is the worst of all possible worlds. Recent examples include LBJ, Carter, Bill Clinton early years, George Bush 6 years, and now B.O. Not exactly the greatest hits of the past 45 years, is it.
By the way, earlier on the page, I believe that you wrote that when adjusted for all the various factors, there is no economic loss when taxes are increased. Is this correct or am I just not bright enough to understand what you are saying? Because as I understand human behavior, you should tax activities you want less of and subsidize activities you want more of. Or, are you really saying that most tax cuts are revenue neutral, because as taxes are cut, loopholes are tossed out. That is certainly what I have seen in my time here on earth. Back before the Reagan tax cuts, there was a loophole for everything, but as taxes have been lowered, loopholes have been cut. In my opinion, that is why changing tax rates haven't drastically affected revenue streams.
CW78| 4.17.09 @ 6:15PM
I recently took a trip to a country with government run health care. On the bus ride back to the airport the driver was providing some insight to the local landmarks, we passed a hospital and she said this is the government run hospital and this is where you go when you are sick. A couple blocks further we passed a private hospital and she said this is where you go to get well. That's what we have to look forward to with government run health care.
Heather Robinson | 4.17.09 @ 6:16PM
Mr. Klein,
Re: your point, supported by the USA Today-/Gallup poll, that most americans are uncomfortable about living "in the shadow of a Leviathan state" is spot on, in my observation. One thing I have noticed is that especially those Americans who are personally disciplined with regard to spending, whether they are Democrats, Republicans, or independents, are most turned off by the spending (personally, I'm on my way to buy another pair of shoes and know virtually nada about economics, but I have observed that many are far more worried than I am, no doubt suitably so). In particular, two registered Dems I know who supported Obama as a candidate are now indicating to me they find it concerning that our President is trying to get us out of massive debt by spending massively. Thanks as ever for your astute reporting and analysis.
Bob| 4.17.09 @ 6:39PM
L. Ross -- we are on the same page. Entitlements can surely be cut but there will be a political price to pay for it. In fact, we cannot balance the budget without reforming entitlements. The problem with budgeting is grandfathering the changes. It will take a decade for any of the changes to have a significant effect.
Regarding tort reform in health care, I agree with you 100% -- we need it. You can't use the courts as a lottery. Did you know that half of the medicare expenses are for the last year of life for recipients. We are keeping too many people alive with machines and not letting them die naturally. Again, tort reform and government sponsored end of life care will help this. Furthermore, about 25% of health care costs are do to the lack of preventative care in lower socioeconomic populations. These people utilize emergency rooms for medical care and these are the least efficient and most expensive facilities available. With 50 million uninsured people and the laws we have, this kills our costs.
My analysis of both tax cuts and tax increases is that they have little effect on the trends of GDP when adjusted for inflation. I have posted charts here many times proving that fact and I would challenge anyone to refute that with graphical data (not point to point analysis which can be manipulated) normalized for inflation (since inflation is not real growth) over the period of 1960 to 2009. Here are two interesting charts:
http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=230
http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-T1-Income-Tax-Receipts-Stay-Constant.html
The way I read this is that GDP is primarily related to industry competition and productivity and not to tax policy. We tend to give too much credit to Presidents for the state of the economy. Most people here don't understand macroeconomics and take the simplistic view that if they keep more of their money, then it will be invested and the economy will grow. But high net worth investors have generally invested in emerging markets and hedge funds which actually hurt economic growth by letting our competition have increased capital.
Pingback| 4.17.09 @ 9:50PM
BAILOUT SUMMARY (List of bailouts so far) « FactReal links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Angel| 4.17.09 @ 11:09PM
Melvin, thank you mucho for your terrific post--even though you got the river wrong. Nitpicky but smart people on this blog. Interesting read, thanks again. Also, thanks, Phil, for deleting the slimy, foul-mouthed DM post. TEA PARTY--WASHINGTON, DC--July4, 2009!!
Angel| 4.17.09 @ 11:10PM
Melvin, Thank you mucho for your terrific post--even though you got the river wrong. Nitpicky but smart people on this blog. Interesting read, thanks again. Also, thanks, Phil, for deleting the slimy, foul-mouthed DM post. TEA PARTY--WASHINGTON, DC--July4, 2009!!
Angel| 4.17.09 @ 11:10PM
Melvin, Thank you mucho for your terrific post--even though you got the river wrong. Nitpicky but smart people on this blog. Interesting read, thanks again. Also, thanks, Phil, for deleting the slimy, foul-mouthed DM post. TEA PARTY--WASHINGTON, DC--July4, 2009!!
Angel| 4.17.09 @ 11:12PM
Melvin, Thank you mucho for your terrific post--even though you got the river wrong. Nitpicky but smart people on this blog. Interesting read, thanks again. Also, thanks, Phil, for deleting the slimy, foul-mouthed DM post. TEA PARTY--WASHINGTON, DC--July4, 2009!!
Angel| 4.17.09 @ 11:12PM
Melvin, Thank you mucho for your terrific post--even though you got the river wrong. Nitpicky but smart people on this blog. Interesting read, thanks again. Also, thanks, Phil, for deleting the slimy, foul-mouthed DM post. TEA PARTY--WASHINGTON, DC--July4, 2009!!
ge205| 4.17.09 @ 11:29PM
Listen up, right wing wackos. First of all, the barn hasn't burn up, yet. If Obama is wrong, and IF (a very big IF) you guys are right, then 2010 is just around the corner.
Elect enough Congressmen and Senators in 2010, and you can stop Obama before too much "damage" is done.
I doubt that will happen, because you people are wrong wrong wrong!
But American democracy is a beautiful thing. Too bad you right wingers can't realize that.
And btw, I hope Texas splits away. Perhaps all of you will move there.
MT| 4.18.09 @ 12:03AM
You can't spend yourself out of debt, moron. Any fool knows that. American democracy is a beautiful thing--liberal fascism ain't.
Kat| 4.18.09 @ 12:06AM
Liberals are patriots now!! Hypocrites.
Marvin Sussman| 4.18.09 @ 1:04AM
DEFICITS AND DEBT
Because of life-long habits of prudence in managing household budgets, conservatives react emotionally against a federal budget deficit. It spooks them, but it shouldn’t.
The budget deficit is not the problem. Didn't ex-VP Cheney say, "Deficits don't matter."? The problem is rather a high ratio of National Debt relative to Gross National Product (ND/GDP). Like a home mortgage, our debt can be paid off over time and a low ND/GDP ratio assures a comfortable schedule of payments. That requires:
(1) That we invest in infrastructure to raise GDP. Concern about the deficit now is like worrying about the cost of running the pumps when the ship is sinking. Our creditors will be patient as long as the economy is running strongly and efficiently at capacity.
(2) That we accelerate recovery to keep ND low. According to Nobel laureate economist Dr. Paul Krugman, Obama’s budget is much too small for quick recovery. But it is still large enough to scare conservatives. A study of the Great Depression (GD), WW II, and its aftermath should calm their fears. We got out of GD I and we'll get out of GD II – but only if we listen to a Nobel laureate economist instead of the conservatives.
HISTORIC LEVELS OF ND/GDP
At the peak of WW II spending, the ND/GDP was 128%. Post-war growth with a high tax rate lowered it gradually to 25% until Reagan almost doubled it to 50% by halving the tax rate. Bush (41) raised it to 65%, Clinton lowered it to 33%, and Bush (43) raised it back up to 40%. Under the worst case scenario, Obama's ND/GDP will be less than 80%. And after recovery, with tax rates at Reagan’s level, the debt level will drop back over time to 25% or less.
Germany, France, and Canada have their ND/GDP at around 65%. Italy’s level is over 100%. At its worst, Japan’s level was over 185%. All of these nations are fairly prosperous and are without serious inflation. And if you are comparing tax rates, be fair: count your health care and education costs as an equivalent tax.
And don’t take their citizens’ complaints too seriously. We fall behind them in measures of food quality, infant mortality, health care, obesity, education, vacation time, retirement benefits, transportation systems, and more. How many French immigrants do you know?
STIMULUS ECONOMICS 101
With stimulus funds, government invests in public infrastructure
=> Government-financed jobs created
=> Workers receive salaries
=> Workers buy goods and services
=> Inventory is reduced; services hire workers
=> Goods inventory is exhausted
=> Goods manufacturing increases
=> Private investment in industry
=> Privately-financed jobs created
=> RECOVERY!!
HISTORIC STIMULUS
Conservatives of the 1930s did not let FDR spend our way out of GD I. But, in the 1940s, Hitler and Tojo made him spend every dime we had putting everybody back to work or into uniform. The economy really went “socialist” for four years, with the government hiring almost everybody, directly or indirectly. Contracts, prices, wages, gasoline, and other supplies were strictly controlled and rationed.
WW II ended GD I. When it was over, people cashed in their war bonds, bought cars and homes, and created our suburbs. There was some inflation but it was allowed because it stimulated the construction industry. Uncle Sam paid for the college education of millions of veterans and practically gave them a home. More stimulus spending occurred via the Marshall Plan, which financed European purchase of US goods; the Korean War, and Eisenhower’s Interstate Highway Program. Indeed, the Cold War can be seen as one huge work-relief program that provided decades of historic economic expansion for the middle class. The rich did pretty well too, even with tax rates that were at least twice today’s rates. And if all that war-related spending could have been invested in domestic infrastructure, we would all be getting those monthly checks that Gov. Palin sends out.
And still there are idiots who believe that stimulus doesn’t work!!
RECOVERY
The current economic crisis was caused by three decades of Reaganomics (see: http://www.geocities.com/thereaganyears/kangas2.htm) and disastrous deregulation (see: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/05/foreclosure-phil). Now, let’s fix it!!
Since consumers won’t spend and entrepreneurs won’t invest during a recession, the government must. We have to put people to work improving infrastructure (including transportation, education, health care, and green energy). And we have to stimulate the economy until inventory runs down and production restarts, sparking new investment.
INFLATION AND TAXES
Our problem now is not inflation, but rather deflation. We have already licked 20% inflation and know how it’s done, but even 1% deflation would put us on a dangerous slippery slope. Consumers won’t spend a dime today when they know that prices will drop tomorrow. The economy would freeze up like the South Pole.
Payroll tax cuts for the poor and payments for the unemployed do make sense. They will spend every cent of it and put it back into the economy. But tax cuts for other individuals will only be squirreled away for a rainy day. Scared consumers are now saving at a higher level than they have in three decades.
Entrepreneurs, including foreigners, won’t find many safe deals outside the US and they won’t keep their money under a mattress. Regardless of high tax rates, they will take the best deal they can get right here, as they did from 1950 to 1980. In a recession, new investment comes only with renewed consumer demand, not with tax cuts.
Claiming to cure a recession, demagogues offer tax cuts to bribe middle and upper class voters. Unfortunately, there are many in the bottom half of the IQ spectrum that will sell out their heritage and their posterity for a little extra pocket change. Let’s hope that there are enough of the others who understand the true meaning of patriotism.
Pingback| 4.18.09 @ 1:44AM
Obama’s Big Government Gamble links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
True Patriot| 4.18.09 @ 2:26AM
Only a fascist liberal moron would say that a tax cut is a bribe. How can you be bribed with your own money? Sounds like coercion to me. Bribes are what you fascist liberals offer the poor in exchange for their votes when you push through billions of dollars in welfare entitlements. Only a deceitful sniveling snake would argue against fiscal prudence: Everyone knows you CAN'T spend yourself out of debt. Your intelligence and patriotism should be questioned: You have neither. What mind-boggling arrogance. You miserable fascist-liberal powermongers have got to go.
Frosty| 4.18.09 @ 2:28AM
Krugman's a hack.
Pingback| 4.18.09 @ 6:21AM
Spending to oblivion « Aeronaut links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 4.18.09 @ 7:09AM
Quotes Car Insurance - How to haggle on the high street - Daily Telegraph « Quotes Ca links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Robert Rosencrans| 4.18.09 @ 7:37AM
Bob: I don't believe in going tit for tat, but you sir are a pluperfect moron. Your line of reasoning that the Bush administration was corrupt, and I pointed that out many times, is justification for the Obama administration to be corrupt, shows only one thing, you are corrupt, morally. But then again, I already knew that.
Robert Rosencrans| 4.18.09 @ 7:52AM
One other point Bob. You state that I'm funny for pointing out that big government leads to corruption, then you list a litany of examples that prove I'm right. Absurd!
Otto| 4.18.09 @ 8:42AM
Klein is merely expressing hope over expectation. Far from the long term odds being against Obama they are actually entirely for him. Clearly his budget is going to pass, the economy will be on the mend by early next year if not sooner, some sort of universal healthcare program is going to pass. Does anyone really think these are not going to be instrumental in further Dem gains in 2010 and his re-election in 2012. And that's leaving aside all his personal and governmental advantages. Once passed none of this is going to be reversed any more than social security has been. Most of the comments here are of total irrelevance particularly the ones about big govt. Even before the advent of Obama the combined federal and state govt budget in the US totalled around $4.6 trillion. This is several times greater than the govt expenditures of any other sovereign state in the world. Small government? That cow left the barn 50 years ago. Instead of summoning up vague hopes for the failure of the Obama agenda or that there's any real substantial opposition to it, because in reality there isn't as he actually acknowledges, he'd be better employed addressing how the GOP gets out of the hole it finds itself in.
Pingback| 4.18.09 @ 8:57AM
Your Abbreviated Pundit Round-up | Bloggers For Change links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Robert Rosencrans| 4.18.09 @ 9:28AM
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
http://mises.org/story/3386
Mises knew that capitalism, for a number of reasons, has politically powerful enemies. The most powerful, most destructive, and most vicious and subversive of these would be false monetary theory and, as a result, a misguided monetary system, as it inevitably will destroy the free societal order. In The Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1912, Mises noted
It would be a mistake to assume that the modern organization of exchange is bound to continue to exist. It carries within itself the germ of its own destruction; the development of the fiduciary medium must necessarily lead to its breakdown.[2]
By fiduciary medium Mises meant fraudulent money: money that systematically violates the principle of private property — money that isn't backed by freely chosen money proper (such as gold and silver). Government controlled fiat money is and will always be, by construction, fraudulent money.
We already find ourselves facing the destructive consequences that the worldwide fiat-money regime has engendered: impoverishment, caused by malinvestment, and rising despair among the people — which, it must be feared, will set into motion disintegrating forces for capitalism, the productive, peaceful, and sustainable societal cooperation.
We are witnessing yet another sign of the failure of the fiat-money regime — this time perhaps its eventual collapse — on a worldwide scale. It has been predicted, logically deduced from praxeology, by Mises and his followers, as a result of state interventionism in monetary affairs.
Robert Rosencrans| 4.18.09 @ 9:31AM
Lesson #2:
http://mises.org/story/3386
Capitalism rests on individuals' property rights: private ownership of the means of production. All claims capitalism makes — such as, for instance, fostering free, peaceful, productive, and sustainable association among individuals — result from this fundamental insight.
Motivated by self-interest, property encourages individuals to increasingly take advantage of the division of labor and free trade, as the latter allow for higher productivity and incomes when compared with a system of economically self-sufficient individuals.
Money emerges from individuals pursuing their self-interest. Using money no longer restricts exchange to a double coincidence of wants of the parties involved, thereby expanding the possibilities of exchange in an economy organized along the lines of property rights.
Mises realized that money is not an abstract concept that can be treated separately from the sphere of commodities, but that money is itself a commodity: in a free market, money is the kind of commodity that is considered most exchangeable.
With prices of all vendible items expressed in terms of a single commodity, transaction costs are greatly diminished, requiring fewer resources for making exchange possible, thereby contributing to higher productivity and higher standards of living.
The use of money as an accounting tool provides for an accurate expression of an individual's opportunity cost. This, in turn, supports efficient decision making on the part of consumers and producers.
Money allows for higher incomes. And higher incomes lower people's time preference, that is individuals' preference for present goods over future goods. And the lower people's time preference is, the earlier the onset of the process of capital formation starts.
A decline in people's time preference means that a greater portion of current income will be saved and invested. As the stock of capital rises, and as production becomes more roundabout, the marginal productivity of labor increases, and this leads to higher employment and higher wages.
The expansion of the division of labor and free trade, accompanied by a rise in saving and investing, brings about ever closer economic ties between individuals.
Growing economic integration makes people less present oriented and more future oriented, and this too gives another boost to a higher degree of interpersonal cooperation and association, or in other words, civilization.
We can conclude that money plays a key role in facilitating and intensifying the process of civilization. However, this holds true only for free-market money, while with government-controlled fiat money, the opposing tendency comes into operation, namely the process of decivilization.
John| 4.18.09 @ 9:34AM
The revolution began this week. True Americans are going to take their country back from the usurper. We won't submit to your re-education camps for our kids, Hussein!
Tim| 4.18.09 @ 10:11AM
I can't imagine why any intelligent person would really be surprised at this orchastrated effort by some on the far left to try and shut everyday folks up or demonize and marginalize them as nut jobs
or soldiers in the Fox News army.
Didn't Obama himself throw three reporters off of his campaign plane back in September 2008 because said reporters were asking hard questions that were making the annointed one uncomfortable?
This latest "Tea Party" reaction from the far left proves beyond any doubt that the true defenders of free speech has and always will be folks on the Center/Right side of things and not as folks in college think.......folks on the Far Left Fringes.
It is one thing to rebel rouse for your cause and then allow others to do same.......
but its another thing altogether to bring down the Czars and their ministers for crimes against the poor only to then turn around and destroy anyone who disagrees with your new world order as was the simple case in 1917 Russia.
Continuum| 4.18.09 @ 10:20AM
The revolution begain on November 4, 2008. True Americans took back their government from the party that trampled the Constitution, corrupted the DOJ, and drove the country into economic disaster. The American people decided not to let our submit to the re-education camps of the neocon rightwing nutjobbers.
Tim| 4.18.09 @ 10:46AM
Hey Continuum,
This may come as a total shock to you, but I would fight to the death to make sure people like you continue to have the right to speak freely and openly and without fear of persecution from Big Brother George or Uncle Obama.
That said,
What camp do you place the "Acorn" vast corruption as it applies to voting procedure irregularities and stolen and triple counted votes etc?
Are these corrupt mental midgets Right Wing Nut Jobs? or Far Left Loones?
Or are they just plain ol Anti American pigs bent on destroying the US constitution?
Before you answer, be sure to get your story straight with the White House so as not to make them look bad.
Last time I heard, Obama was dining and laughing it up with another Anti American, Hugo Chavez.
What is Bill Ayers no longer good enough for Obama?
Robert Rosencrans| 4.18.09 @ 11:21AM
Big government fails in the way only big government can.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Congress-ignored-regulators-repeated-warnings-on-Fannie-Freddie-43196817.html
On Sept. 29, 2008, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-CA, praised House Financial Services Committee chairman Barney Frank, D-MA, for his “leadership.” In the next breath, she blamed the sub-prime mortgage meltdown on a supposed lack of Wall Street regulation by right-wing ideologues in the Bush administration. Turns out Pelosi had it exactly wrong. The collapse of government-guaranteed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which helped send the U.S. economy into a nose-dive, was a preventable man-made disaster, according to documents obtained by Judicial Watch under the Freedom of Information Act.
In fact, for at least six years prior, officials at the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) warned key members of Congress – in letters, congressional testimony and email - that post-Enron financial controls at the two mortgage giants were “inadequate.” They also found that neither Fannie nor Freddie were even filing disclosure documents required of all public companies in a timely fashion. Despite FHFA’s multiple alarms, Congress failed to rein in such illegal and reckless behavior. Prominent among Fannie and Freddie’s congressional defenders was Frank, who said on September 10, 2003 that Fannie and Freddie were “not in crisis.”
The same day, then-Treasury Secretary John Snow testified in favor of reforms for Fannie and Freddie. Then on Dec. 3, 2004, Frank was warned in an FHFA letter noting that outside auditors at Fannie and Freddie could not complete their reviews of its financial statements and “noted the possibility of up to a $9 billion loss dating back to 2001.” We are aware of no public statement by Frank correcting his earlier declaration that Fannie and Freddie were “not in crisis.”
“If Barney Frank was the head of a private company and he got a letter like this from his accountant, and the company later went belly-up and cost taxpayers $200 billion, I don’t think he’d be given a pass,” Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton told The Examiner. “He’d be up on SEC charges, to say the least.” Yet what Fitton described as “interlocking, incestuous relationships” between Fannie and Freddie executives and members of Congress continue to this day. Recent ads for zero down, no credit, no appraisal, no income verification mortgages indicate that the wily-nily cash handouts continue with tacit government approval, since no legitimate private lending institutions would dare repeat the same mistake that bankrupted so many of their counterparts.
Instead of investigating malfeasance, in February Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner rewarded Fannie and Freddie by raising the ceiling on the amount of taxpayer money they can receive from $100 billion to $200 billion. We will all be paying for Congress’ failure to listen to federal regulators for a long time to come.
Katharine Dupre| 4.18.09 @ 12:59PM
Talking of long wait times with nationalized health care, people die waiting for heathcare. I'm speaking of the ones that takes months and years. My grandmother lived in England and died waiting for health care and that was years ago when it was better there.
Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 1:44PM
Tim, there's no point in trying to talk to liberal fascists--their goal is clear, and it's all about power. It has always been about power with them; they have lied, cheated and stolen for it. Save your strength for action, it's the only way we can challenge their power grab.
tmaxPA| 4.18.09 @ 2:44PM
To Pat: It seems to me it is the capitalists that have made capitalism a dirty word.
And if a health care program that costs the American Taxpayer 1.5 Trillion dollars over ten years saves American Citizens 3 Trillion dollars over the next ten years, is that not just what government is for, to enable the individual to accomplish things that individuals, on their own, cannot, in order to benefit the society as a whole?
Or am I just a socialist, since I think government can benefit society?
Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 3:23PM
Liberal fascists have TRIED to make capitalism a dirty word because they want to take over our economy. But your dirty little scheme won't work because we Conservatives will fight you all the way. Government is the real threat because they have the power of coercion--like placing military vets on a terrorist watch list. Disgusting power-mongers. TEA PARTY, WASHINGTON, DC--July 4, 2009!!
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 3:57PM
So ... Is the American Spectator going to say anything about the Torture Memos.
Or, are you too embarrassed.
I've just been reading them, and if this is how a "Christian" nation behaves, give me atheism everyday.
What sick, cowardly, weak, repulsive people were in charge of this country these past eight years.
They will not be remembered kindly.
And you people call Obama a fascist because he's putting tax rates back to where they were in the 1990s!
Fools.
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Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 6:15PM
TP/Jeremiah: You are outraged because we threatened a vicious terrorist killer with an insect? Pathetic fascist liberal, of course you worship at the altar of atheism: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and Castro are your role models. These murderous atheists were responsible for many, many millions of hideous tortures and deaths of innocent human beings--and you whimper over a bug. Weak weenie democrat. That's why we don't trust you morons with our national security--you'd rather put our veterans and pro-lifers on a terrorist watch list than address our real threats.
Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 6:20PM
TP/Jeremiah--just remember: ALL OF YOU DEMOCRATS IN THE LOOP GAVE YOUR CONSENT TO THESE INTERROGATION METHODS. It's too late to whine your outrage now--where were your leaders then? Stop pretending there's no blood on your hands, too.
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 6:50PM
Smitty --
You should try reading the memos. Rush Limbaugh's little precis of their contents was -- mirabile dictu -- less than thorough.
By the way, many of the people we tortured were *released* after it was found they had nothing to do with terrorism.
The American government captured -- on bad intelligence, itself often the result of torture -- hundreds of INNOCENT people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It sent agents to torture them.
The people who authorized these actions will live in infamy, believe you me, and people who supported them will as well.
Torture tactics included sexual humiliation, threatening men with rape, smearing men with menstrual discharge, denying prisoners food and water, beating prisoners, chaining prisoners to walls or to pipes in the ceiling for up to 11 days, threatening prisoners' family members with death or rape -- the list goes on and on.
I wonder what Eisenhower would say, could he journey back from the dead, if he were to witness American soldiers subjecting a prisoner, rendered completely under control and completely helpless, being threatened with rape or execution by agents of the American government. The poor man would never stop throwing up, and he'd disown us. He'd simply not be able to believe his eyes.
What a foul, dishonorable, disgrace. What weak men you are, who don't know abuses of power when you see it.
You bitch and howl and moan about having to pay taxes, and how oppressed you are, but you don't have the balls to see true tyranny where it is and say something. What midgets you are. You're a bunch of radio slaves.
Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 7:08PM
Jeremiah: YOU DEMOCRATS AGREED TO THESE INTERROGATION TACTICS when Bush apprised you of them, and you damn well know it. THESE SAME TACTICS SAVED THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN LIVES. THERE IS BLOOD ON YOUR DEMOCRAT HANDS, TOO!! I have no respect for liars like you.
MT| 4.18.09 @ 7:17PM
Nancy Pelosi authorized these interrogation methods, too, Jeremiah. Will she live in infamy? So easy for weak little tools like you to cry and hyperventilate over this report while you remain snug and safe in your little abode. REAL men protect this country from the horror of more 9/11 mornings--not miserable little weenies like you. Cry me a river, TP--cry me a F-ing river.
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 7:51PM
MT --
How exactly did "real man" Bush protect us from 9.11?
I'd really like to know.
Torture is for the weak. Cruelty is weakness. The ancients knew it; the whole world knows it.
When men degrade themselves by torturing a prisoner, they sacrifice their honor.
Clearly you and "Smitty" have not been following the news reports. Most of these tactics were kept from Congress. That's part of the whole point.
Congress was apprised of some "harsh" interrogation procedures, including water-boarding, but they were not permitted by LAW to do anything about it. Pelosi would have been breaking security protocols to hold a hearing on it.
By the way, dozens of military men came forward during the Bush years to descry torture. They knew it traumatized and debased their men, and they knew it yielded bad information.
Remember: men bring home the war they fight. If they commit atrocity, they bring home atrocity with them. That was the whole thinking behind the chivalry, and all other military codes.
There's a reason why heartless civilian ideologues perpetrated most of these crimes, not soldiers.
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 7:56PM
And as for being a "Jeremiah," he is the one who cried out to God that his people were too wicked to be saved. If I recall correctly, he even has the temerity to blame God himself at one point for the wickedness of his countrymen.
If this is so, I accept the name with pride.
They say that all great prophets pray for the downfall of their own countries.
I do not pray for the downfall of my country; but reading the Torture Memos makes me understand how one might.
MT| 4.18.09 @ 8:08PM
Shame on you, feckless liberal--many democrats were included in those interrogation tactics briefs Bush gave to Congress. Not just Pelosi--many of your liberal leaders were there--I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THIS. Liberals leaked confidential information all of the time during the Bush Administration If they objected to this interrogation cruelty--why didn't your liberal leaders leak their concerns to the NYTimes? Hmmmmm? Obviously, they believed these methods were necessary for the safety of our country--the horror of 9/11 was still clear in everyones' minds. You've forgotten--I haven't.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:22PM
Amazing--what I still remember in brutally bright detail are the charred stick figures jumping/falling 100 stories to their deaths. It was mesmerizing. It was so surreal; at first I thought it was a horror movie. Who brought the war home to these hapless souls, Jeremiah? Do you cry out for the suffering of these individuals--your fellow Americans? Were they shown chivalry, or don't they matter to you?
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 8:25PM
MT --
I was living in NYC on 9.11. I do not use the city for exploitative photo-ops as Republican politicians do. I remember that day very clearly.
I also know that tormenting Arabs in CIA dungeons is stupid and pointless and immoral.
Democrats spent an enormous amount of political capital raising concerns about these methods, and many of them were suspected but not (until now) confirmed.
As for my being a "feckless liberal," I'll accept that too. I don't see any reason to be outraged over every little thing.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:28PM
Jeremiah, I think your prayer for our country is being answered. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:29PM
Jeremiah, I think your prayer for our country is being answered. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:35PM
You still haven't copped to the actions or responsibility of your democrat leadership. Your indifference to the horrible suffering of your fellow Americans is also quite sobering. Feckless, actually.
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 8:38PM
Angel,
I do NOT judge the morality of what my country does by the morality of what terrorists do.
The United States of America has higher standards for itself. This is something that many "conservatives" have forgotten.
Where would we be if we decided to use the tactics of our enemies just because we were frightened and aggrieved?
Strength and courage and -- yes -- honor are required in any struggle. It's not the easiest way, but that's just the way it is.
Just think of how this torture has detracted from the honor of other Americans.
What people tend to forget is that our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are often wounded and maimed because they are being so careful not to harm civilians. That is noble and brave and strong, and it means horrendous sacrifice on their part.
And then, this. Torture chambers run by the CIA, an agency that wasn't able to predict the downfall of the Soviet Union or Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iraq. We give the hundreds of billions of dollars, and we get nothing but small time bloodthirsty third world dictators, bad information and torture chambers in return. It's outrageous.
Tom Paine| 4.18.09 @ 8:40PM
Angel --
Suffering of my fellow Americans? What, are we doing a grieving contest now? What the hell do you know about me, you presumptuous, arrogant twit?
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:52PM
Jeremiah, you have been posting here at AmSpec for months, and you know us by now. We are Americans like you who have grown up in neighborhoods just like yours. Why do you believe that we wish to hurt anyone? I have worked for years helping those who are ill, alone and poor. Many Conservatives have. That's why a lot of us think liberals are haters: You believe the worst about us Conservatives. It's very disheartening.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:57PM
A lot of this information was successfully used to prevent more terrorist attacks in our country. I am thankful to these courageous professionals for saving the lives of American citizens--maybe you, Jeremiah.
Angel| 4.18.09 @ 8:59PM
Regardless of our differences, Jeremiah--I still wish the best for you.
Giblet| 4.18.09 @ 9:22PM
I merely point out that the first time I heard that the protesters were "teabagging" was on Fox News, hardly an agent of the left.
Of course, we libs ran with it because, well, it's funny.
El Wayne| 4.18.09 @ 9:45PM
Rosencrans
You again point out that the "fiscally conservative jewish I've been there and done it all" Bob allknowing and seeing pompous ass that he is, is in fact a moron to boot. Bravo you slam him everytime. Its not that conservatives are anti-intellectual as Bob opines its that we hate overintellectualazation gooberdrivel that these guys spew like chunky vomit all over the place. He is at base the problem that this country faces...like someone said those who think they're so wise are merely fools. Ignore him he's irrelevant.
MT| 4.18.09 @ 9:46PM
Fox News was doing a report on the leftist agents, CNN/MSNBC using the teabagging insult. You libs ran with it because you are immature perverts. Grow up, losers.
Smitty| 4.18.09 @ 9:47PM
Liberal losers.
Ruth| 4.18.09 @ 9:54PM
Don't blame the CIA--they couldn't have done a thing without the express consent and permission of the President and the Congress. I'm just thankful that someone made the tough decisions to protect not only my family but all American families. I won't apologize for wanting to live.
Xenophon| 4.18.09 @ 10:58PM
Conservatives of the free market, libertarian, small government type will never get anywhere with the Republican party. It is the party of Lincoln and will forever be dogged by those social issues it has always championed. Therefore, it cannot oppose big government and it cannot win liberal social arguments with Democrats. To shrink government and tame the social welfare state will require a different party. And for that to succeed, we need a political and economic earthquake. I haven't felt one yet, though one could be on the way sooner than many think. Let's hope so.
Dina| 4.18.09 @ 11:14PM
God knows I wasn't going to go through the dozens of comments on this page, but I did want to make my point about Nationalized Health Care heard.
I'm 21 years old and already in full-blown renal failure (I'll make it another 7 years if I'm lucky, being ineligible for transplant). Obama's prospects about a Nationalized Health Care system scare the ever-living crap out of me. I have friends in several countries that have such a health care system and they all say, "You don't want it. Our taxes are high, it takes forever to see a doctor, and the quality of care isn't that great." Which means:
A) In the time it would have taken me to see a specialist in say, Canada, before initial diagnosis, I could have died. Waiting several weeks to several months to see a Nephrologist, or any other specialist for that matter, isn't acceptable. To sentence your citizens to death to save a few bucks isn't worth it... At least in my opinion. That's why many foreigners come here to have surgeries done, provided they have the money, because it has to be paid for out-of-pocket.
B) I come out of a family that has an annual income of less than $40,000 (BEFORE taxes, INCLUDING child support). My dialysis costs alone are over $70,000 annually. 'Nough said. My family already has enough on their plate with my medical bills; they don't need higher taxes on top of it.
C) The quality of care I get determines the quality of life I live. If I get poor dialysis, I'm going to be horrendously ill on a daily basis. I really, really don't want to go back to being unable to stop myself from vomiting and spending days in the hospital because of being so heavily uremic. I don't want to go back to that; I want my last 5 or so years to be decent ones... I don't wanna suffer through it.
This brings me to a couple of changes that I think may help... Hopefully:
A) Put a cap on the percentage that a hospital/doctor/medical center (etc.) can charge for routine medical procedures. For instance: To do an ultrasound (raw; not including the cost of the machine itself) and print out the images should cost no more than $5-10 (that includes the electricity needed to run the machine and the paper and ink in the printer). There is absolutely no reason a medical facility should charge upwards of $500 for such a procedure; especially when the machine is used hourly, as they are in hospitals that are extremely busy.
B) The Insurance Companies are making all of the calls, and getting big cuts from hospitals, not to mention giving discounts to people who are 'healthy'. Like me, some people can't help it and are born with deformities and imbalances; it's something totally out of our control. Example: To have my Venous Catheter put in just before Thanksgiving 2008 cost $16,000 before being submitted to the insurance company (Blue Cross, Blue Shield [Illinois] PPO). However, they only charged BCBS just over $8,000, and as a result we got charged only about $1500 (Thank God my father is an auto mechanic). It makes me wonder why the people that NEED the care to survive aren't getting the same cuts insurance companies are. I'm no longer covered under BCBS because I'm unable to go to school, and wouldn't be able to pay such a bill had I abruptly needed care. Besides, f they're going to give that cut to an insurance company, why not give it to the private person? They effectively wouldn't be losing anything.
If I'm completely out of line, please; don't be shy. If I'm an extremist for wanting to live the last few years of my life and not suffer, then so be it. I'm not willing to be in agony in my final days because our government wants to expand and implement a Nationalized Health Care system. Oh, and for those that say we already have an insane wait time to see doctors: You're incredibly wrong. If I needed to get in to see any of my doctors on Monday and it absolutely couldn't wait, I could do it. In many other countries, you're waiting at least 3 months; possibly more. Imagine your spouse, child, mother, father, or best friend being put in my situation. Do you still agree with Nationalized Health Care being good for us? Until it hits close to home, many people don't understand the impact it will have on people's every day lives.
I won't even get started on the insane amount of care being given to illegal immigrants... I'm going to reiterate the 'illegal' part. If someone broke into your home and stole things that are rightfully yours, wouldn't you be furious?
ruth| 4.18.09 @ 11:52PM
Oh, my God, Dina--you sweet angel. I don't know what to say to you. Your eloquent, heartfelt letter has touched my heart. I'm so sorry that you are ill. God bless you and your family, I will pray for you. There are so many resources to help you and your family. Your church, your community; surely someone will help you. Dina, I'm just one person, but I will help you. Contact AmSpec if you want my email address. Take Care, Ruth
Dina| 4.19.09 @ 12:35AM
Ruth -
Thanks for your support! I need as much as I can get right now... I'm not as worried about myself as I am the people who love me, and the children my boyfriend and I one day hope to adopt (unfortunately, although he is Roman-Catholic, marriage is out of the equation; lest I wish to lose what health coverage and income I have). The hundreds of thousands of people who are in situations similar to mine are also a part of my concern, because I know how it feels to worry about the people who love you most every waking moment. I dread the day that the USA goes into a Socialized system of health care, because quality plummets. Financially it makes sense, but mortality rates will skyrocket. American's tendency to lead unhealthy lifestyles (Fast Food Nation, anybody?) doesn't help. But as working hours force most of us to get food on the road and lose out on sleep, there isn't much of a choice.
...I certainly hope I'm not choking on my words here, because the last thing I want to do is be looked at as some arrogant little brat. Hah. I've done enough of that for a lifetime in my Junior year of high school alone.
I just really want the-powers-that-be (in a manner of speaking) to SERIOUSLY consider what they would be doing should they move our nation towards such a health care system. That's all I want. I don't want to seem like a sob story begging for pity, because I'm honestly sick of the pity. 6 years' worth was enough. I just want people to think; I mean really think. Think about the impact it would have on the terminally ill and those who are ill but have yet to find out about it. Think about their families. Think about the debt that a lot of families already have on their names, and what the addition of more taxes would have on them. I'm not anti-tax by any means, because it's paying for my health care. By the way:
To those of you in the middle-class who are honest, hard-working people, and who still filed your taxes this year despite a potential hike - thank-you. I wouldn't be sitting here right now without that financial help; though I will admit that it's terrible that the people who need the money most are bearing a heavy tax burden when there are others out there who perpetually have upwards of $1 million in a bank account at any given time.
I'm not Anti-Obama or Anti-Democrat. I'm a Moderate, though I do have a slight rightward lean, and think that Mr. Obama has good intentions. He wants to get this country back on track financially, and I can't blame him. I will, however, take this moment to point out that I strongly disagree with his views on health care, his conduct with foreign nations (Calling his fellow Americans 'arrogant'? Not nice. Foreign leaders are already thinking it, you don't need to say it), issues dealing with border control, and the potential legalization of the 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants that are here and have sapped up our resources. A several-thousand dollar fine for each person residing in this country illegally isn't going to even out the amount of money our country has spent on them; whether it be on health care, subsidized housing, food stamps, or financial aid. I'm willing to bet a majority of Americans will feel the same.
I have no problems with immigrants. None whatsoever. Many of my friends are immigrants, and they went about it the right way: The applied, got a green card, and waited for their citizenship to be finalized. If they can put up with us while they wait, more power to them - it's the ones that cross our borders illegally and forge social security numbers than I have an issue with. I feel that I just needed to set that straight, because I sense a backlash coming to smack me in the face within the next couple of days...
Zak Klemmer | 4.19.09 @ 1:33AM
Democrats are insane and Republicans are geldings.
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 2:07AM
As I scan the wires I see new reports emerging on water-boarding that suggest the CIA lied to Congress about the number of times they used this technique.
The very same reports are being served up alongside fresh reporting from Iraq, where militants are shelling the green zone. This after Republicans have spent months saying we've "won" in Iraq.
Friends, believe it. You were lied to repeatedly by the previous administration, and the mess is so bad, I doubt any president could get us out now. But denying the truth is lameness. It is what it is.
And Rush Limbaugh is now using John McCain's experience in N. Vietnam to argue FOR torture.
John McCain in his small toe has more honor than just about every Republican and conservative pundit combined. How you people turned on him is a disgrace. This man is a war hero. What a lying, shallow coward Rush Limbaugh is! What does he know about war?
Good fortune to you, America. And have a nice day.
Angel| 4.19.09 @ 2:36AM
So, you liberal fascists want another CIA witch hunt like the one you had under Carter, TP? Not this time. We have Conservative media like Rush now, and you won't get away with it again. That's why you hate him so much--he exposes your lies. Your liberal leaders knew and approved what the CIA was doing to protect us after 9/11--frog march Pelosi, Reid, et al to jail, too!
Angel| 4.19.09 @ 2:42AM
Bush did win the Iraq war--it only took Obama 90 days to lose it? Figures. Liberals are too weak to wage war and defend our country.
Smitty| 4.19.09 @ 2:45AM
If you like McCain so much, why didn't you vote for him like I did, moron?
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 2:49AM
Dina, you are wise beyond your years--adversity has a way of making you grow up quickly. What backlash are you talking about? Everything you said was reasonable and fair. I meant my offer of help to you, okay?
Dina| 4.19.09 @ 3:19AM
Ruth -
Well, I have taken notice that a few people who lean a bit more towards the left than I do have made a couple of posts here, and I was almost a little scared I was going to get chewed out; not by you, but by them. My boyfriend isn't pleased with my viewpoints either, so when he gets home on Monday morning from his father's I'm sure he's going to have a few choice words for me... Oh well. Small price to pay. Free speech, right?
I did grow up pretty fast because of this whole thing, but I wouldn't take it back, despite any suffering I may face. To imagine myself in a 15-year-old state of mind right now in terms of politics is a little frightening, because I was an uber-liberal up until I was about 17 or 18.
Tom Paine -
I appreciate your views on McCain; not a lot of people feel the same way, apparently. And I especially appreciate your good wishes for us - I hope we won't need it as badly as everyone seems to think.
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 4:23AM
Dina, AmSpec is Conservative/Libertarian, your viewpoint fits right in. I often defend my fellow Conservatives from Liberal trolls; it's fun, actually. Speak up!! You have a lot to say and you say it well; no worries, hon. Everything you said seems very fair to me--your boyfriend must be VERY liberal. If we don't care enough about our country to enforce our borders, we don't deserve to keep it, in my opinion. Stay well.
Bill Husserin O'Stalin| 4.19.09 @ 11:29AM
Stalin: "When we hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope that we use."
Tim| 4.19.09 @ 11:34AM
This torture discussion from the far left is something to behold.
Would it be more kindly and more humane if we just nuked these human decapitators and women beaters from orbit much the same way Truman did to Japan in 1945?
Or would non stop surgical non nuke air strikes
be more to your liking?
Or perhaps we should just let these human retards come on over and behead anyone they disagree with?
Maybe we should dine with them and joke with them and give them a list of those they should decapitate?
The problem that Obama and all of the other far left loones will soon learn is that a snake is a snake, and you can try to make a pet out of it but its still a snake and if you turn your back he will bite your head off just as fast as anyone else.
But as Smitty says, you guys know that already.
It's really only about the Power Grab with the Obama types!
Have fun kids while there is still sand left in the sand box.
Mack Bolan| 4.19.09 @ 11:56AM
Just a couple of simple things, maybe because I have served our country which I DON'T believe some of these liberals would ever do because of their brainless, aimless stupidity, total lack of identity and complete brainwashing from the socialist, fascist, nazi, marxist professors which are paid by our tax dollars and are protected by our armed forces to do just that, and somehow, these past few generations have grown up grounded in atheistic beliefs, no real moral values or substance and somehow live in this naieve innocent little idyllic cloud like world surreal world in their socialist conditioned minds. But what really galls me is that the absolute blindness to the fact that all the really true wealth in this country is in the hands of the Liberal Left, yet they are always pointing the finger at conservatives as being the rich ones, also, it is always the far liberal left that complains about what of torture is, but they have no sense of real torture is. I would like to have, oh lets say maybe a revolving class of maybe a hundred students a day and we can go through some of the the very basic and more simple degrees of torture that was practiced on our soldiers in Vietnam, in Germany and in Japan. I could probably go through about a years worth of classes and never use the same torture twice. We could begin the class with the insertion of very large Bamboo Splinters under and into each of the fingernails. We start with the hands. Usually two or three in each finger, then we work on the feet. After that we start to break the bones in each finger, and so on and so on, with around 206 Bones in the adult human body. Are any of you Anal Retentive Liberals getting my point about TORTURE yet, and just to finish with some favorite German nicities, there was always Electricity, which could make the human body dance in a way that no music you ever heard could make you dance, and the only difference was that it never stopped, it just went on and on and it burned every nerve ending in your body....You pampered, coddled, mentally atrophied liberal babies should suck up an Oil Drum of Manhood, we should go back to Mandatory Service in the Armed Forces, not this Nazi Obama Citizen force, but the real armed forces, serving our real country. Learning what it means to be an American, RESPECTING THE FLAG, RESPECTING FAITH and WHAT MADE America GREAT. Because as far as I am concerned, as I read through some of the responses from you ELITIST SOCILIST LIBERAL (DEMOCRATS) or WHATEVERS, GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY, LEAVE, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE GO FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO LIVE. I FOR ONE AM SICK AND TIRED OF LISTENING TO YOUR WHINING BABY INSIPID WHIMPERING STUPIDITY WHEN YOU HAVE NOT DONE A DAMN THING IN YOUR LIFE BUT LISTENED TO SOME IDIOT COMMUNIST, SOCIALIST, MARXIST, NAZI WHO I PAY OUT OF MY TAX DOLLARS TO TRY AND EDUCATE YOU.....PRETTY STUPID ON MY PART...
Mack Bolan | 4.19.09 @ 12:10PM
Just a couple of simple things, maybe because I have served our country which I DON'T believe some of these liberals would ever do because of their brainless, aimless stupidity, total lack of identity and complete brainwashing from the socialist, fascist, nazi, marxist professors which are paid by our tax dollars and are protected by our armed forces to do just that, and somehow, these past few generations have grown up grounded in atheistic beliefs, no real moral values or substance and somehow live in this naieve innocent little idyllic cloud like surreal world in their socialist conditioned minds. But what really galls me is that the absolute blindness to the fact that all the really true wealth in this country is in the hands of the Liberal Left, yet they are always pointing the finger at conservatives as being the rich ones, also, it is always the far liberal left that complains about what torture is, but they have no sense of what real torture is. I would like to have, oh, lets say maybe a revolving class of maybe a hundred students a day and we can go through some of the the very basic and more simple degrees of torture that was practiced on our soldiers in Vietnam, in Germany and in Japan. I could probably go through about a years worth of classes and never use the same torture twice. We could begin the class with the insertion of very large Bamboo Splinters under and into each of the fingernails. We start with the hands. Usually two or three in each finger, then we work on the feet. After that we start to break the bones in each finger, and so on and so on, with around 206 Bones in the adult human body. Are any of you Anal Retentive Liberals getting my point about TORTURE yet, and just to finish with some favorite German niceities, there was always Electricity, which could make the human body dance in a way that no music you ever heard could make you dance, and the only difference was that it never stopped, it just went on and on and it burned every nerve ending in your body....You pampered, coddled, mentally atrophied liberal babies should suck up an Oil Drum of Manhood, we should go back to Mandatory Service in the Armed Forces, not this Nazi Obama Citizen force, but the real armed forces, serving our real country. Learning what it means to be an American, RESPECTING THE FLAG, RESPECTING FAITH and WHAT MADE America GREAT. Because as far as I am concerned, as I read through some of the responses from you ELITIST SOCIALIST LIBERAL (DEMOCRATS) or WHATEVERS, GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY, LEAVE, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE GO FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO LIVE. I FOR ONE AM SICK AND TIRED OF LISTENING TO YOUR WHINING BABY INSIPID WHIMPERING STUPIDITY WHEN YOU HAVE NOT DONE A DAMN THING IN YOUR LIFE BUT LISTENED TO SOME IDIOT COMMUNIST, SOCIALIST, MARXIST, NAZI WHO I PAY OUT OF MY TAX DOLLARS TO TRY AND EDUCATE YOU.....PRETTY STUPID ON MY PART...
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 12:47PM
Mack --
Seems to me its the conservatives who are making noises about "secession" -- i.e., literally "leaving the country."
Liberals believe in the USA. That's why we criticize the government.
Mark A. Sadowski| 4.19.09 @ 1:13PM
Dina,
My friend just came home from the hospital with end stage renal failure. I have an entirely different perspective from you. (Full disclosure: I am an ex-Libertarian who became a fervent Democrat thanks to the Bush administration.)
Maureen is 44 years old and suffered from untreated chronic hypertension which evidently caused her kidneys to fail. She has had no health insurance since 2003 when her company went bankrupt, and has been unable to obtain another job with affordable medical insurance since. As a result her condition went undetected until it was too late. She avoided seeking any medical treatment because she was terrified of what they would find and of its cost until until she was so ill that she was told that if she had waited another day she would probably have died.
I'm not sure what the specifics are of your situation (and frankly it's none of my business) but Maureen does qualify for a transplant. Nevertheless there's no reason to suppose she couldn't live a long (although inconvenient and costly) life relying on dialysis. Dialysis is not a death sentence. People on dialysis do have slightly higher mortality rates than normal because their uric acid levels are higher. This is one (of many) reasons why it is preferable to get a kidney transplant as soon as you can if you are young enough and your health condition permits it.
Since Maureen has no health insurance one may well wonder how is she going to pay for hospitalization, tests, dialysis and medication. Since she needs continuing dialysis for end stage renal disease she is covered by Medicare and all people who have paid into the system in fact qualify. (I assume you are aware of this.) If Medicare did not cover this it would have effectively meant a death sentence for her as people with kidney failure cannot live without dialysis (the vomiting and nausea are the least of one's worries).
I have nothing but praise for Medicare. The treatment offered by it is easily as good as private insurance. Medicare paid for virtually all of my mother's medical expenses for the last six months of her life. Although she had extremely good private insurance, I doubt she would have been able to die with the same degree of dignity that Medicare afforded her. And, incidentally, my mother was not a U.S. citizen. She was a British subject to the end, and qualified for Medicare because she and my father (also a foreigner) paid into the system from its inception until he retired from the DuPont Company (hence the private insurance) in 1986.
Our health system is insanely expensive and ineffective. All of my cousins and nearly all of my remaining aunts and uncles still live in Europe (Poland and Scotland). They have zero complaints about the health systems in their respective countries and according to them they have never had to wait to see a specialist and the quality of care is superb. My mother's oldest sister is approaching 90 now and lives a full vital life thanks to the British health care system.
Despite our enourmous expenditures on health care, double or more per capita than every other country in the OECD, we stand nearly last in the civilized world in terms of such measurements as life expectancy and infant mortality. The main reason we stand virtually last in such measurements of health is that we are one of the only countries in the OECD without some system of universal health care.
Some system of universal health care (I am not advocating nationalization), perhaps like Switzerland, would be much preferable to our current system. Had Maureen had access to affordable health care she probably would have been able to prevent her kidneys from failing. As a result the cost of her treatment, to herself and to Medicare, would have been much less than than it is now going to be. And that says nothing about the travails of 12 hours of dialysis treatment a week and all the associated inconveniences.
I wish you well but I think your fears of universal health care are ill founded. It's time we started treating every one of our citizens as well the citizens of other countries in the civilized world are. The costs of health care would come down with preventive treatment and the social and economic benefits to our country of a healthier and longer living population could be enourmous. I say this not only as Maureen's friend but as an economist who loves his country.
P.S. Although I nearly always disagree with the opinions expressed in the American Spectator 's columns I find many of the comments here to be well reasoned and informative (especially Bob's).
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 4:42PM
The question is not whether to torture or nuke.
What you people forget is that laws and treaties forbidding torture protect US.
We don't criminalize torture because we feel sorry for Al Quaeda prisoners. We do it to defend our honor and dignity. We criminalize torture because we do not believe the government should be permitted to deny any person his humanity.
Smitty| 4.19.09 @ 5:05PM
Of course you love Bob, Mark--you're both liberals.
CH| 4.19.09 @ 5:16PM
Why didn't your democrat leaders agree with you when they had the chance, TP? Why didn't they speak up when their outrage would have meant something to these prisoners? Your democrat leaders didn't speak out against our interrogation methods, in fact, they gave their consent to these same methods. Your mighty liberal 'after the fact' outrage is blunted by these facts. It's impotent, actually.
Angel| 4.19.09 @ 5:18PM
Liberals don't believe in the USA--they believe in liberalism--that's why they are constantly trying to change everything in our country.
Siegfried X| 4.19.09 @ 7:28PM
I'm not excited about the use of torture after 9/11 because it will always happen. Any country with thousands of its citizens being killed will use whatever means are available to protect them.
I don't think we should openly admit it though. We would be better off pretending that it doesn't happen in the USA, then acting surprised if evidence comes out.
It's worth remembering that "torture" was another issue on which McCain agreed with Obama. McCain tied President Bush's hands with anti-terror legislation. That's why McCain's talk that he would find bin Laden was hot air -- McCain would rather bin Laden remained free than have water squirted up a terrorist's nose.
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 9:15PM
Siegried X --
Read your last sentence again, my friend. For the love of God. Bush USED torture and did NOT find bin Laden.
So what use was the torture?
It seems to me it allowed some sadists to get their jollies out on people differently complected from most of us. Because their complexion, language and religion are different from ours, we believe their lives are less valuable, their suffering less real, their families more disposable, and their pain less agonizing.
Three cheers. Ra ra. Hooray. Another victory for truth, justice, and the American way.
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 9:20PM
The most consistent argument coming from reactionaries in favor of torture seems to be that Democrats somehow knew about it.
a) That's not an argument; b) Democrats were NOT apprised of things we're learning this week; if you read the reports, you'd know this; c) Democrats in Congress were severely limited by what they could do; d) "Liberals" in the press have been at the issue for years, as have civil libertarians and lawyers for groups like the ACLU.
The only reason we know now the extent of the CIA's cover-up on torture is the ACLU sued the government for the documentation and won (with a conservative judge).
Hank Rearden| 4.19.09 @ 9:51PM
This is not really much of a gamble when one considers recent history. FDR creates a massive welfare state, taxes the hell of any business that might actually create growth and gets lucky with a war to pull the US out of the depression. Moving on to LBJ, the Great Society that never was. Face it, LBJ destroyed more inter-cities than Jimi Doolittle throughout the war. While it may be trendy to blame capitalism on for our current crisis any serious examination will show that the impact of government intervention into the economy is at the heart of the crisis.
I take that back, it is only a crisis if legislation needs to be passed.
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 10:24PM
I don't favor torture, tool--I favor safety for my family. Bush's post 9/11 interrogation methods bought safety for our country for 7 1/2 years--I'll sure as hell take it. Whatever President Bush did--IT WORKED!! THANK YOU, PRESIDENT BUSH AND THE CIA!! The DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP KNEW ABOUT WATERBOARDING YEARS AGO--THEY ARE JUST AS CULPABLE AS PRES. BUSH AND THE CIA. STOP LYING, JEREMIAH. MORON.
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 10:34PM
Ruth,
Either what Bush did is right or wrong. You seem to be implying that it's wrong, but that you don't care because you're "safe."
Well, Bush's own intelligence reports suggest you are no safer now than you were on 9.12.
Second, we'd never had a terrorist attack like 9.11 before 9.11, so it's specious to claim that because we haven't been attacked like that since any particular tactic is working.
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 10:40PM
Seems to me, Jeremiah--you're the sadist getting your jollies by accusing us of racism and barbarism toward those of darker complexions, when all we really want is safety for our children. I don't dismiss the agony of others--I just don't want to see my own children writhing in agony. Is that so hard for you to understand, Jeremiah? Or is the agony of a fellow lighter complected American not important to you because our lives are not as valuable?
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 10:47PM
You can determine for yourself if the post 9/11 interrogation tactics were right or wrong. But, your democrat leadership is just as responsible as the President is. They were briefed often and signed off on the methods. The intelligence we gleaned from the interrogations prevented other attacks. I am grateful to EVERYONE who played a part in our country's safety for the last 7 1/2 years. Especially God.
Pingback| 4.19.09 @ 11:18PM
Quotes Car Insurance - Obama’s Big Government Gamble - Spectator.org « Quotes Car Ins links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Tom Paine| 4.19.09 @ 11:27PM
Congress is not in charge of the executive branch, Ruth. That's the president.
If the CIA does something, it's the president's responsibility. Not the Congress's.
Congress has a loose oversight responsibility, and when it comes to national security, that responsibility can be narrowly circumscribed by law -- particularly in cases involving secret programs.
A small number of Democrats (chairs or co-chairs of intelligence committees with extremely high security clearances) were given some debriefings, but the content of those debriefings is secret.
No matter what the Democrats were told, they "signed off" on nothing. They weren't in charge of the committees during most of this time, let alone the CIA.
ruth| 4.19.09 @ 11:58PM
Wimp. If Pelosi had objected to waterboarding, she could have leaked it to the NYTimes (a favorite Demo MO). Her 'sign-off' was tacit; but it was a sign-off none the less. Democrats were in charge of the committees for two years, Jeremiah--plenty of time to squawk if they so desired--guess they didn't, huh?! You're just pissed because you can't pin anything on G.W. or the CIA. Tough nuttos!
Tom Paine| 4.20.09 @ 12:01AM
Ruth --
I've done the only civics lesson I'm going to do tonight.
ruth| 4.20.09 @ 12:08AM
Actually doll--you're the one who's been schooled. Say uncle--say it now!
Siegfried X| 4.20.09 @ 12:41AM
Opposition to torture is a form of pacifism.
Believing that the enemy will stop torturing if we do is like believing that war will end if the USA stops fighting wars.
We can't let naive pacifists kill Americans with their fantasies. Hitler rose to power and opened the concentration camps while America was at peace. Some US troops early in World War II had to practice with broom sticks instead of guns because the pacifists had talked us into letting our guard down.
ruth| 4.20.09 @ 1:13AM
Siegfried, you think you could get TP/Jeremiah to tell his buddy, Obama, what you just wrote? You're preaching to the choir here.
Dina| 4.20.09 @ 1:38AM
The reason I'm not eligible for transplant is because my immune system destroyed my kidneys without a pinpointed reason, and the immumosuppressive therapies I would need to be on make me too ill to function at least somewhat normally. Imagine the worst stomach flu, migraines, and joint pain you've ever had. Multiply that by two. That's the kind of 'ill' I'm talking about. Without immunosuppression, the kidneys would fail within hours of transplant. And to be honest, I'd rather they go to someone who would live through surgery and treatment without a hitch.
As for the comments I made about the health care in several other countries, I based my opinion on what I was told by my friends - who had direct experience with it. If what you and your family have experienced is equally true, then I may be planning a move or a vacation. Always wanted to visit Europe, anyway...
ruth| 4.20.09 @ 3:27AM
Dina, there's a reason people come from all over the world for our medical care. Our health care isn't perfect but it's the best I know of. I wish there was a way we could streamline it and make it more efficient without destroying it. You sound like you need a week or two in Hawaii--heck, I need to go to Hawaii!!
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Mark A. Sadowski| 4.20.09 @ 10:32AM
Dina,
I thought there must be some complicating factor like that. Your situation is of course much more serious than Maureen's.
As for moving to Europe, there is at least a time gap (usually 3 months) before health coverage kicks in. Thus the shift to another country could require some large up front expenses. (And I also know that Medicare will not cover dialysis performed abroad which is a complication for those who wish to travel.) If you're already covered by Medicare you're probably better off just staying here. But it's certainly worth looking into.
On another note, everyone should get to see Europe at least once. I've often thought there should be a "Make a Wish Foundation" for adults.
I hope us sharing thoughts has educated others about the realities of renal disease. Take Care.
Bob Miller| 4.20.09 @ 3:57PM
It would be ironic if bureaucratic friction and incompetence so delayed the massive spending and the accumulation of Federal power as to allow the next Congress (if it wishes) to sharply limit the permanent damage.
MT| 4.20.09 @ 4:07PM
Dina--you are definitely better off staying here. Socialized health care is coercive--you have more options in the US. Good luck, hon.
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Siefried X| 4.21.09 @ 7:42AM
"Or am I just a socialist, since I think government can benefit society? "
No, there is a difference between conseratives and libertarians, so conservatives do believe that the government can benefit society.
Almost all rightist economic and medical care discussions are dominated by libertarians, not conservatives. They try to pretend that conservative = libertarian and that the only two choices are libertarian vs. socialist.
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Alva | 7.29.09 @ 2:18PM
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Limeve| 4.24.10 @ 10:51AM
Minulle rakennekynnet ovat tutut vain sitä kautta, että olen nähnyt rakennekynsiä tuttavillani tai netissä. Oma elämäni on täynnä sellaisia harrastuksia, joissa pitkät kynnet ovat haitaksi. Rakennekynsien pituus on kyllä yksilöllinen asia, mutta saattaisin kolhia hienot rakennekynnet, vaikka ne eivät olisi kovin pitkätkään. En tiedä, tulenko koskaan hankkimaan itselleni rakennekynsiä, mutta rakennekynnet ovat kyllä hauskan näköisiä, varsinkin vaaleanpunaiset rakennekynnet.
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oreing | 4.21.10 @ 11:55PM
I’ll have a Poptropica full written walkthrough very soon, but in the ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010meantime, here are some answers to some of the frequently asked questions about Mythology Island. Having trouble? Post a question in the comments and I’ll try to answer it!
Getting Hercules to Help You
Hercules won’t help you until you have all five items from Zeus’ quest. Once you have the five items, bring them to Athena. Zeus will appear and steal them. The big jerk! Once this happens, talk to Athena and she will tell you that Hercules will help you. You’ll need to have the magic mirror from Aphrodite because Hercules doesn’t want to have to walk. He’s so lazy!
Getting the Hydra Scale
You can see how to do this in the videos, but basically you need to jump up when the Hydra is about to strike. He will rear one of his heads back to attack and his eyes will bulge out. When this happens, jump up in the air and then try to land on top of his head. That head will get knocked out. When all five heads get knocked out, the ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010Hydra will be asleep and you can click on him to get one of the scales. Poptropica I’ll have a Poptropica full written walkthrough very soon, but in the meantime, here are some answers to some of the frequently asked questions about Mythology Island. Having trouble? Post a question in the comments and I’ll try to answer it!
Getting Hercules to Help You
Hercules won’t help you until you have all five items from Zeus’ quest. Once you have the five items, bring them to Athena. Zeus will appear and steal them. The big jerk! Once this happens, talk to Athena and she will tell you that Hercules will help you.ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010 You’ll need to have the magic mirror from Aphrodite because Hercules doesn’t want to have to walk. He’s so lazy!
Getting the Hydra Scale ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010
You can see how to do this in the videos, but basically you need to jump up when the Hydra is about to strike. He will rear one of his heads back to attack and his eyes will bulge out. When this happens, jump up in the air and then try to land on top of his head. That head will get knocked out. When all five heads get knocked out, the Hydra will be asleep and you can click on him to get one of the scales.Poptropica
Seth James | 5.5.10 @ 10:42AM
I believe that Mr. Obama is not suited as president. His only allaby to solving the economic crisis is by spending money and by putting the government in areas that should be left to the people. I simply do not agree with his tactics and his action taken to solve this recession.
josh garlend | 5.5.10 @ 10:44AM
Mr. Obama is a douchbag!!!!!!!!!!!!!