Special Report
Those Odd Atheist Bus-Slogans
What is the joy that belief kills?
British atheists have paid to have buses carry advertisements saying: “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” Professor of Atheism Richard Dawkins, a geneticist by training, is a major supporter of this campaign and has put quite a lot of his own money into it. (A much humbler figure, a bus driver, has possibly made a bigger sacrifice by refusing to drive buses bearing the message, but that’s another story.)
In America a similar campaign of bus ads reads: “”Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake!” while leaving the definition of what would be “good” in a world without a god rather unclear (though it is true that Marxism and Nazism gave us some idea).
Writing in the Daily Express, former British Conservative government minister and Catholic Ann Widdecombe has remarked that this advertisement is strange. She says:
If, as C. S. Lewis said in The Weight of Glory, we believe that we and our neighbors were created by God to live forever, we will treat ourselves and one another differently. But it actually goes further than this. If man had in the past taken to heart the injunction that “There’s probably no God,” not only would there be no hope of eternal Salvation, and no fixed ground for morality, but there would also be no art, science or civilization.
Western art grew from our religion and a striving to illuminate and understand mankind’s relationship with God. So did non-Western art — the pyramids, the Norse sagas, the statues of Easter Island and a number of other things that enrich our lives. Even cave-art was almost certainly related to the supernatural. Belief produced Michelangelo’s Pieta and the Sistine Chapel, Leonardo’s The Last Supper, the great Cathedrals of Europe, the works of Dante, Shakespeare, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, and virtually every great masterpiece.
Modern atheist art has produced the pickled cows and sharks of Damien Hirst, the soiled bed-linen of Professor Tracey Emin, and, in literature, the mumblings and ravings of Samuel Beckett and Harold Pinter, attempts to portray a meaningless world. Socrates and Plato, pagans but believers in a god, laid the foundations of Western philosophy, including its humanistic aspects. Atheism produced the meaninglessness and worse of Nietzsche, an unintentional progenitor of Nazism, and then of Sartre, spiritual father of the Pol Pot Genocide, as atheism produced Communism in general, responsible for about 100 million deaths and ruined lives beyond count.
Supernatural aspects aside, what these bus ads seem to actually promise and hold out to us is at best a world and a vision of dullness and drabness, from which color, splendor and even interest has been largely excluded, at worst something a great deal more terrible.
Further, and as is not emphasized enough, not only Western art and thought, but also Western sciences and technology, are the products of Judaism and Christianity, the one religious tradition which welcomed and exalted reason, as it exalted art, for the greater glory of God.
The first industrialization of Europe, with water wheels replacing slaves driven by the lash, was the work of monks. The Romans knew of water wheels, but made only a small number, even at times when they were apparently short of slave labor. By the Middle Ages, thanks to the monasteries, there were thousands of water-wheels and windmills, helping free humans, and indeed some animals, from lives of dull and torturous drudgery. One medieval monk wrote a poem celebrating the fact that, with the harnessing of water-power, horses’ backs no longer need be broken.
Monks also put books into their modern form, replacing scrolls, and making possible printing. They designed and instituted public clocks and raised agriculture to a science. They preserved the heritage of the classical world through the Dark Ages: the art and science of Greece and the technology of Rome. Previously, when in ancient times civilizations had fallen, all the small store of knowledge which they had painfully scraped together had been lost with them (the Greeks of Homer’s time and of classical antiquity had no idea that civilizations had existed in the Mediterranean before them). The monks of Europe were responsible for not only innumerable inventions but for their application to improve life, and on an organized, institutional basis, making the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages the first great era of rapid human advancement.
Christianity, which, with its obvious close links to the Jewish Rabbinical tradition and ethic, had been founded by a carpenter, and whose first leading figures included a tent-maker, a doctor and fishermen, was a religion, and created a culture, which honored men who did things. This was a great change from the great civilizations of the past, including Egypt, Greece and Rome, where the artisan was despised and had a status little if any better than a slave. Greek science tended to concentrate on gentlemanly occupations like astronomy and geometry, though astronomy could not progress far because it was beneath them to make lenses. (One can imagine Archimedes holding his nose as he made war-engines.) Saint Paul, with the injunction to use the things that are visible to discover the things that are invisible, may be seen to have specifically endorsed science and technology, one of many things which made Christianity radically unlike any preceding religions or ethical systems.
About the Author
Hal G.P. Colebatch’s “Immram,” Counterstrike, is being published by Australian publisher Imaginites.
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stefie| 1.26.09 @ 7:14AM
How sad to not have a God by which to judge and guide your life. I have God in my life and have a wonderfully fun and joyful existence.
These scientific types need a near death experience. THAT will make them see how wrong they are.
They should keep their atheistic views to themselves. It offends me.
Culper, Jr.| 1.26.09 @ 7:49AM
The most astonishing part of this whole controversy is the inclusion of the word "probably."
If someone took me aside and said "There's probably no law against killing your boss, so why not put strychine in the coffee maker?", I wouldn't jump to it. "Probably" is a very slim reed on which to hang my freedom, much less my eternal salvation.
R. Trotter| 1.26.09 @ 8:05AM
That was a brilliant article. Thank you for it.
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 8:17AM
When christianity was nigh completely dominant we got water wheels and printing presses. Now that secularity and atheism are surging and becoming pervasive we get the nuclear fusion and the internet. It seems that atheism is better for technical progress.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 8:31AM
ccd - actually, it seems that there are "atheistic" forces working against those as well. It isn't Christians who are blocking and creating the irrational fear of nuclear power, and it's mostly Communist and left-of-center nations which are really trying to control internet access to the masses.
JP| 1.26.09 @ 9:00AM
The late Bishop Fulton Sheen once told the story of a young priest assigned to the New York Chancery (Bishop's office), and during a diner host by Sheen himself constantly complained about how immoral it was for the New York Cardinal to host such an event while there was hunger in the street. The young priest was quite emphatic. Unlike the other guests at the dinner -who politely listened to this young activst- Bishop Sheen took the young priest aside and quietly asked the young man how much money had stolen from the Church's coffers? The priest's obsession with money only illuminated his guilty conscience.
So it is with athieists. Athieists it appears are consumed by God. Whether they are political activists , humorists (Bill Maher) or scientists, these people surely have unresolved conflicts with both God and religion. The efforts, money, and time they devote attacking God only illustrates the root cause of thier obsession - or is it fear or guilt?
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 9:17AM
JP- So atheists are consumed with guilt and fear of god when they impugn christianity. Following that reasoning Colebatch and other figures who condemn atheism are consumed with embarresment about the irrationality of their supernatual beliefs.
Mike M.| 1.26.09 @ 9:53AM
The bicentennial of the birth of another great Roman Catholic benefactor of the human race is being celebated this year: Louis Braille (1809-1852), whose tactile reading and writing system made literacy possible for blind people in every language.
Doug N| 1.26.09 @ 10:00AM
ccd- Your argument makes little sense. Technologically, one has to crawl before one can walk, right? Are you suggesting that if religion had been extinguished in the Middle Ages, then nuclear power and the internet would have appeared hundreds of years ago?
DJ Mealor| 1.26.09 @ 10:05AM
Your article is offensive and you should not have your views published. I made it to the point where you falsely linked atheism with Nazism before becoming sickened. I then stopped reading at the quotation of someone linking disbelief with moral anarchy. I recommend you learn from people that are more learned then you, I recommend my pet cat, he seems to have a grasp on reality that you will only be able to strive torwards.
whutamireading| 12.5.10 @ 12:37PM
are you trying to say that if people believed there was no god they wouldnt go around selling coke to pregnant women and then use the money to pay for underaged hookers?? because that and nazizsm are what i think of immediately when i think about atheists
also before those of you who could learn from cat support me JK
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 10:13AM
Doug- My argument is on par to the rather nonsensical positions of the author. Without religion, water wheels and printing presses would have appeared, maybe a bit later but probably not much, and subsequently nuculer physics and such would have arrived.
The author seems to condone attributing all earlier development to the dominant spiritual views of the time, so I merely extended the reasoning to the present day.
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 11:26AM
Further, if todays rather secular culture should attribute it's development to a christian heritage, then those devlopments should in turn be attributed to al preceding cultures including animist and preanimist societies.
Saved| 1.26.09 @ 12:06PM
I often wonder about Athiests, why are they so bothered with Christians. I hardly ever see them taking aim at the other religions, cults, etc. They have a god that they worship and it comes in many forms. Intellect, self, enviroment, even cats. I am actually glad that these groups are advertising on the bus. If Christians advertised "Believe in God", it would surely be mocked and discounted. But the Athiests are doing us a favor. It requires pondering the point and making a decision. Do you believe or not? If you do agree with the "probably" quote then you will go along your way happy that there is no interference with your choices in life. But what if the probably is incorrect? What shall we do then? Shall we persecute the Believers until we feel better? That should help us become a more desireable human to be around. Maybe the bus advertising should be as follows: Share the love, Hug an Athiest today!
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 12:26PM
Can you explain why christians are so bothered by atheists?
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 12:34PM
The atheists tend to be irratated because they are compelled to pledge allegence to a god they don't beliieve and to teach their children likewise. To pay for religous festivities and decorations they disapprove of. And to make statements, as part of the body politic, of a belief in god that they do not hold.
If christian were subjected to the same level of irratation by government coercion they would scream bloody murder.
Appleby| 1.26.09 @ 12:45PM
"If christian [sic] were subjected to the same level of irratation by government coercion they would scream bloody murder. "
We are and we do.
I agree with the poster above who queried the use of "probably". I have asked one of my sisters who approves of this farrago, "Suppose the guy you picked up at the bar last night told you 'I probably don't have AIDS' ... would you have sex with him?" She flounced off in a huff, the question unanswered.
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 1:07PM
Appleby- I agree with you that christianity is screaming bloody murder. But why are they so irritated with atheists? What government coercions are they subjected to? The only one that I have been told of is the government's refusal to declare a christian nation. But the government even more stridently refuses to declare an atheistic nation. So this seems equitable. Atheists merely seem to want the government to not declare anything on the matter. And that does seem to be the intent between the establishment clause of the 1st ammendment.
As for probably, global warming may exist but should one dedicate one's life to the cause based on scant evidence.
Johann| 1.26.09 @ 1:11PM
Saved, the whole reason this bus campaign got started was a response to pervasive Christian ads which declared that all non-Christians are going to hell. So please spare us the pretense of being persecuted and marginalized.
As for those questioning the "probably" - the reason it is there is that the advertising company would not accept the ad without this addition, even though it does not require similar Christian statements to have that qualifier. I'm sure someone will spin this into a story of how Christians are being persecuted as well.
Not even going to bother commenting on Hal's one-sided and selectively historically blind article. Far too many of those around. =P
Pat| 1.26.09 @ 1:19PM
This essay is the usual invitation to dump on the atheists but not many new insights here, plus the usual mangling of facts. Richard Dawkins is actually a zoologist with a spurious claim to being an evolutionary biologist. He wrote about genes for popular consumption ("The Selfish Gene") but is not a geneticist. His actual scientific contributions are extremely limited, his awards focus on his "contributions" to evolution theory and religion. He's basically an obscure scientist who became famous and wealthy writing popular books about evolution and religion.
The Brits claim about 20% of their population as self-professed atheists but these "official" atheists actively participate in the religious life of the U.K.. England has a state church and the atheists aren't reluctant to criticize the Church when it departs from traditional religious teachings. Like other Europeans, the Brits don't want the Church or religion to disappear, it's both useful and necessary to the social structure, someone has to offiiciate at weddings and funerals after all.
Like Europe, many Americans want religion to provide a stabilizing influence on our culture as long as religion doesn't interfere in our daily lives. Some Americans, for instance, deeply resent the Vatican's criticism of President Obama's position on abortion. The Catholic Church has no right to interfere in our politics goes the rebuttal, but that doesn't mean Americans, non-Catholics included, want the Vatican to remain silent on matters of morality.
Like the ancient Canaanites, Americans are accomplished child murderers (45 million so far)
and this undeniable fact can cause some consciences to twinge. Better to have the Church reminding us frequently of what constitutes proper morality as long as the Church has no authority to enforce it. As with the Canaanites, God may eventually take offense with our sins and, as a consequence, most non-believing Americans feel it doesn't hurt to take out a heavenly insurance policy.
Roger McKinney| 1.26.09 @ 1:33PM
ccd wrote:
"When christianity was nigh completely dominant we got water wheels and printing presses. Now that secularity and atheism are surging and becoming pervasive we get the nuclear fusion and the internet. It seems that atheism is better for technical progress. "
When we the population was much smaller, we got waterwheels and printing presses; with a larger population we now have nuclear fusion and the internet. It seems that larger populations are better for technical progress.
Or, when the climate was colder we got waterwheels and printing presses; with a warmer climate we now have nuclear fusion and the internet. It seems that warmer climates are better for technical progress.
The two correlations I offer are no more idiotic than is yours. It's a child's game to invent stupid correlations. On the other hand, there is a great deal of historical evidence that Christianity gave birth to modern western science through its emphasis on reason as a path to truth, objective truth, and the belief that God is a rational Being. It explains why modern science developed in the Christian West and not in the Hindu/Buddhist East or Muslim Middle East.
Roger McKinney| 1.26.09 @ 1:34PM
Which great atheist philosophers should we look to for moral guidance? Hitler, Stalin, Mao?
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 2:07PM
Mckinney you are correct coincidence does not connote causality. However it was the position of the article and apparently yours as well that because science devloped in the christian territories christianity should be credited with the progress.
It was the scientific method that brought the explosive development of science and the resulting technology and quality of life. This method has been devloping from ancient times and finally came into its own during the enlightenment and subsequent technical revolutions.
This method does not rely on "god being a rational being" but on ignoring supernatural explanations and basing conclusions on evidence and experimentation. These underlying principles are now being viciously attacked by some christians exemplified by there constant diatribe favoring creationism over evolution.
As for your list of philosopher's, killing people does not qualify you as a philosopher. Try instead Ayn Rand, Strato, or michael martin.
Kris| 1.26.09 @ 2:08PM
Roger: Your bringing of Hitler, Stalin and Mao into the discussion is a reflection of the proud ignorance that's all too common in religious conservatives. Hitler was a Catholic, not an atheist - there's plenty of evidence that in his writings and speechings if you'd bother to look.
I'd like to see any evidence that the wrongdoings of Stalin and Mao are in any way related to or driven by their atheism.
Speaking of idiotic correlations - Hitler and Stalin both had moustaches. They also killed a lot of people. Does this mean they killed people because they had moustaches?
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 2:35PM
Mr. Colebatch,
Great article!
Although you forgot Roger Bacon (13th century monk), considered the father of the scientific method. The process of testing your hypothosis, measuring the results, if they were repeatable, you knew your hypothosis was valid.He put alchemy's claims to the test.
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 2:44PM
ccd,
Did you read the whole article? Mr. Colebatch clearly showed the Romans had waterwheels but didn't exploit their potential, even when they were short on slaves. Because they were pagans and didn't care about their fellow man. Only the spread of Christianity did that.
ccd| 1.26.09 @ 2:55PM
Nick the presence of slavery in great portions of the religous world (pre-civil war US, European serfdom, the ongoing muslim world, and the near slavery of chinese which supplies christian america with cheap goods) would indicate your statement is implausible.
The reason water wheels did not catch on in the roman empire was the lack need due to cheapness of labor. After the black death which resulted in severe labor shortage alternative power sources were necessary. Simple economics rather than christian alturism is a more reliable explanation.
If however you are supporting the idea that coincidence connotes causality, then as stated above today's secular culture has led to far more technical, scientific, and artistic inovation than the preceding millenia of religious dominance.
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 2:56PM
Kris,
You write: "Hitler was a Catholic....". You are technically correct. Hitler WAS a Catholic. He left the Church a long time before anybody ever heard of him. As far as being an atheist, I think Hitler thought he was god. Like most liberals do.
As far as Stalin's and Mao's atheism are concerned, go look at all the churches Stalin destroyed and all the Christians Mao persecuted.
Or maybe you don't consider these "wrongdoings"?
Michele San Pietro| 1.26.09 @ 3:02PM
Some scoundrels would like to put such stupid inscriptions on busses even here in Italy. The priest of my church has already announced a general boycott of public busses if such an absurdity happened.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 3:15PM
Like some other commenters, I didn't read past the Marxism/Nazism remark. That's all it took to convince me of the author's ignorance.
The problem with Marxism and Nazism was not atheism. (Plus, as has been pointed out — on numerous occasions, here and elsewhere — Hitler never gave any indication that he was an atheist, and even if he was, his followers most certainly weren't.) The problem with those regimes was state worship; in other words, unwavering dogmatism. That's also the problem with religion.
Atheists have only one thing in common: they do not believe any gods exist. There is no central doctrine of atheism, no belief system of any kind. It is merely a lack of belief in all gods, which is something you have in common as it pertains to 99.9% of any other gods that have ever been conceived.
Plus, if you want to blame people's beliefs for their actions, why not mention things like the Crusades and the Inquisition, just to be fair? The difference, of course, is that these people's actions were actually prescribed by their religion.
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 3:29PM
ccd,
I should have been clearer, my apologies.
You wrote: "Without religion, water wheels and printing presses would have appeared ..."
My point was Mr. Colebatch never said religion led to waterwheels. I restated his point without stating mine.
History shows that pagan societies had many inventions they did not exploit. The Greeks had a functioning steam engine and gear driven computer, the Chinese had gun powder and could have ruled the world.
Or maybe it was Divine Providence that kept them from cashing in on their genius.
And it seems you agree with Mr. Colebatch. The groups you list put profits above the dignity man deserves as a creation of God.
Saved| 1.26.09 @ 3:48PM
CCD, I agree with your point on being "compelled" to participate in pledges, events, holidays etc. It used to bring much greater condemnation from believers on those who chose not to participate in these activities. To your question regarding what bothers Christians regarding Athiests, I believe that most Christians have a deep distrust of "Government" imposing restrictions on the practice of religion. Athiests by and large have used Govenment to enact thier preferences on believers and it is a powerfull tool. Each side needs to be sensitive of the others wishes and I believe we can get along. There are those on both sides who do not wish to get along regardless of what is presented. To them we wish peace and understanding.
Saved| 1.26.09 @ 4:02PM
Johann, As with all advertising there are things that maybe should not be printed, posted or written. Jesus is quoted many times in the Bible reaching out to those He came in contact with. The call was "Come and follow me". Some Christian advertising is blunt and shocking to those who are unfamiliar with the message. Burn in Hell is not a great sales slogan for anyone. As to your thoughts that we feel marginalized and persecuted, it's true and you know how it works. It's easy to play the right wing religious fanatic card in the public forum. Peace.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 4:03PM
Saved,
I know you weren't addressing me, but I'd like to respond anyway.
The government does not impose restrictions on religion. The government cannot, according to the Constitution, have a say in anyone's choice of religion. It can, however, prohibit actions that impinge on anyone else's rights, and this is all atheists (and all non-Christians, really) want. Are you under the misapprehension that all atheists and other non-Christians want the practice of Christianity to be illegal? This is not true in any sense. The freedom to believe whatever you want — including the freedom to believe nothing — rests upon the fact that the government can't do this.
The government must remain secular if we are to have freedom of religion. That means public schools, government buildings, and anything else paid for with taxpayer money must be, in a sense, atheistic — not to impose atheism on anyone, because that notion is ridiculous. Does the government also impose nonbelief in fairies or Bigfoot or aliens because it has no official position on them?
Saved| 1.26.09 @ 4:27PM
Ryan, Good point, or so it sounds but it is much harder in practice. For many decades our government unofficially "endorsed" Christianity. It has had a difficult time separating itself from that endorsement without coming across as the bad guy. Any time you place a moral question before the government it really has great difficulty dealing with it. I agree with your comment regarding the government remaining secular so that there can be freedom of and for religion at the same time. I would inteject that maybe the term unbiased is a better attitude for the government to take instead of it being atheistic. It's a difficult task! Peace.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 4:40PM
Ah, but if the government ever did — even unofficially — endorse Christianity, it would've been un-Constitutional. That it happened frequently in the past has no bearing on whether it's legal, which it isn't.
And the government has no problem dealing with moral questions; people do. The government cannot legislate Christian morality (though I understand that certain things, like "decency" laws, are based on morés that are arguably of Christian origin). Thing is, no one is forcing them to have abortions; no one cares if they're homosexuals or whether they want to get married or adopt children; no one wants them to admit the absurdity of their religious beliefs in public or have it written on their money. We just want to be afforded the same courtesies they expect from us. That is how we could all get along, but I certainly won't be holding my breath.
Frank Natoli| 1.26.09 @ 4:57PM
I think it was the final episode of the first season of "House", when House was addressing an auditorium filled with junior MDs. His foil Cameron got into a minor religious debate with House, who to no surprise articulated the standard atheist argument against God: "I can't believe that life is just one big test".
That is one way, the atheist way, of looking at the meaning of God.
Cameron should have replied "you will not accept that there are absolute standards for right and wrong".
That is the fundamental problem atheists have with the Judeo-Christian concept of God. They will not allow that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, ultimately, if not immediately, enforced by a Creator.
They are their own gods, setting their own right and wrong.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 5:05PM
The fundamental problem atheists have with the Judeo-Christian concept of God — far from having anything to do with morality — is just that it's ridiculous. It's no less ridiculous than believing in Zeus or Odin or countless other gods, or believing that the world is flat and supported by a giant turtle.
Christians are also guilty of making their own morality instead of adhering strictly to the morality set forth in the Bible. Or do you not know any Christians who wear poly/cotton blends? The fact is, Christians ignore most of the Bible. If they didn't, they'd all be in jail right now. Our morality evolves just as we do; there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. If there were, and it were "written on our hearts," then why does it fluctuate so widely depending on where in the world you find yourself?
Mike Smith| 1.26.09 @ 5:09PM
Why do theists always revert to the same talking points? They say things like, “without God, you get the Holocaust, Stalinism, mass death.” I often wonder if they know how silly they sound or if they really believe it. Hitler had the phrase “God with us” emblazoned on the belt buckles of his soldiers. What an odd slogan for an atheist. He speaks in Mein Kampf of exterminating Jews as something he needs to do for God. And of course let us not forget that he was a member of the church until he died, having his birthday recognized by the church every year (that’s right, including 1939-1945). The bigger point here is that atheism is a term that describes weather or not someone believes in a supernatural god. An atheist can be a socialist, a democrat, republican, pacifist, war hawk, etc. The only thing you can be certain two atheists have in common is that they don’t believe in gods. That’s it. Everything else is up to that individual. Stalin, Mao, and Hitler were disturbed individuals. Idi Amin was also disturbed individual. He also happened to be a theist. Should we then blame his theism for the barbarism he perpetrated against his countrymen? Of course not.
Frank Natoli| 1.26.09 @ 5:32PM
Ryan: your entire second paragraph describes humans, not God. Nobody is suggesting that people are perfect like God. Well, nobody except atheists.
The Deuce| 1.26.09 @ 5:39PM
The problem with Marxism and Nazism was not atheism.
That's true. It's the other way around. Two of the problems with atheism (among many other things) are Nazism and Communism.
Hitler was a Catholic, not an atheist - there's plenty of evidence that in his writings and speechings if you'd bother to look.
You mean like the following?:
"We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."
You historically ignorant rube. By your logic, Richard Dawkins is a Christian, since he was raised Anglican.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 6:06PM
The Deuce,
Like I said, Nazism and Communism are not problems of atheism. They are problems of unwavering dogmatism. You know — strict, unquestioning adherence to a belief system? Sound familiar? Sure, atheists can be Communists; atheists can be anything. The only thing they all have in common is that they don't believe in any god.
Regarding Hitler — look, I can quote mine too:
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
That's from Mein Kampf. The truth is, I don't know anything about what Hitler believed, and neither do you. He obviously made statements that seemed to indicate one thing or another, so who knows what he actually thought. It seems likely to me that he was, as he claimed to be, a Roman Catholic. But that's all I can say: it seems likely. At the very least, he professed belief in God.
In the end, it doesn't matter what he believed. He was a murderous, power-hungry megalomaniac. That was his problem, not his supposed (and unconfirmed) atheism.
Richard Dawkins, on the other hand, has made it apparent beyond question that he doesn't hold any religious belief. And, wouldn't you know, the worst Richard Dawkins ever did to anyone was to call him silly. Oh, those big, bad atheists — always calling names and making us poor, persecuted theists feel bad!
Why don't we talk about religious wars? The Inquisition? Witch hunts? Centuries upon centuries of murder in the name of God. And not just murder, but slavery and torture and theft, sexism, bigotry — all because some people believed in different gods than others. Human suffering in the name of religion throughout history is inestimable, and yet blaming atheists for Hitler, Stalin, and Mao is your ace in the hole? That makes absolutely no sense. It's like an ethical vegan who hunts for sport.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 6:56PM
Frank Natoli,
Of course it only describes people. God can only be described in terms of the people who believe in him, because otherwise he gives no indication that he exists.
And I wouldn't say that atheists think people are perfect. I'd guess most atheists understand that the idea of perfection is just an abstract; it doesn't exist in the real world. For example, what would you say is the perfect woman? Is she a redhead, a brunette, or a blonde? Tall or short? Does she like the Beatles? How about sushi? Any of those things may factor into one person's ideal, but they aren't implicit in the idea of perfection.
That said, I have a really hard time believing anyone's definition of perfection includes jealousy, malevolence, a propensity to genocide, infanticide, sexism, racism, deceitfulness, imposing infinite punishment for finite transgressions, etc., ad nauseam.
Frank Natoli| 1.26.09 @ 7:29PM
"God can only be described in terms of the people who believe in him, because otherwise he gives no indication that he exists."
I have at least two first person adult experiences that I am convinced were acts of God. One involved some people still alive, and I will not repeat it. Another was on a battlefield tour I had taken of Omaha Beach in Normandy. I was standing alone in a knocked out German pillbox, overlooking the beach. I kept thinking "what must it have been like to be here at that time". I suddenly felt myself in an ocean of excrement. A few seconds later, just as quickly as it came upon me, the sensation disappeared. If anyone wants to mock this as a hallucination or some other psychiatric disorder, go right ahead. I had been given a lesson on how Evil, in its ultimate disgusting manifestation, was present on the beach at that time. And I was told "don't ever want to be there". Even when it was necessary to be there.
Beyond personal experiences, there is the matter of creation, and the accepted fact, for the moment, there was one and only one Big Bang. Astrophysicists know that extremely fine parameters led to the exact proportion of hydrogen in the universe, the one element necessary for stars, and thus fusion energy, and water. Just a slightly different creation parameter would have resulted in a universe of all hydrogen. And a slightly different creation parameter would have resulted in a universe without any hydrogen. There was a Creator to create the Big Bang. There was a Creator to set the hydrogen parameter. Everything we see is the evidence of His existence.
Not the history or assertions that mortals choose to make.
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 7:32PM
Ryan,
While all atheists are not communists, all communists are atheists.
Richard Dawkins hasn't hurt anybody because he has no power.
History is replete with examples of what happens when atheists gain total control. The French Revolt (1789, the first), the Mexican Revolt, the Russian Revolt, the Spanish Civil War (the commies didn't win that one), the Warsaw Pact countries, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Pol Pot, Danny Ortega, Jim Jones. I know I missed some.
And the M.O. is always the same (except Jones). They always start killing the Catholic priests and nuns first. Orthodox priests in Lenin's case. They know Christ is their enemy and try eradicate His Body.
If Dawkins had complete control of the U.K. tomorrow, with atheistic underlings to do his bidding, the attacks on Catholics and Anglians would start the same day.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 8:19PM
Frank,
I have no reason to think you're lying about your experience, but this says nothing about the existence of God. Isn't it funny, don't you think, that people's religious experiences are always affirmative of the religion they were brought up in? You never hear of lifelong Christians seeing Vishnu, or of Muslims being visited by the Virgin Mary.
And I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Communism, Nazism, and Fascism were not results of atheism. They were state worship, effectively replacing worship of a god with worship of a dictator. Of course these regimes prescribed atheism. How else could they claim to believe in no higher power than the state? The problems associated with them were the same as with religion; i.e., blind acceptance of a central doctrine, intolerance of other belief systems, worship of a central figure, etc.
I don't doubt that there are dangerous atheists, but these aren't examples of the dangers of atheism.
Frank Natoli| 1.26.09 @ 8:39PM
Ryan: regarding your comment on self affirming religious experiences, the example I stated was not such an event. Nor was the other event that I cannot repeat. However, both were unambiguous statements of right and wrong, Good and Evil.
When you write that Communism, Nazism and Fascism were not the results of atheism, we get into the difficulty of correlation versus causality. Prolific mass murder in the 20th century correlated exclusively with atheistic regimes. A few decades ago, some French academics wrote the "Black Book of Communism", where they tallied roughly 100,000,000 dead, courtesy of Chinese, Soviet and various Indochinese communist regimes. Correlation or causality?
Stephen Ambrose had a superb observation about the Germans, particularly the SS. On many occasions, they could be just as gallant and chivalrous with their enemies as the Allies. But when the Vaterland required something ungallant or unchivalrous, the SS didn't have to think twice. So if that meant killing every bed ridden wounded man in an Allied field hospital between two Allied beaches in Normandy, that's what got done. You can attribute their "reasoning" to their blind loyalty to the state. I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist, because the atheist does not need to reconcile his conscience to an all knowing Creator. An atheist is his own god.
JP| 1.26.09 @ 8:55PM
CCd,
Your's is a strawman's arguement. It wasn't Christians who got the SCOTUS to find a constitutional prohibition against school prayer (Read the 1st Amendment to find where and to whom the prohibition existed). It isn't Christians who found Constitutional prohibitions against any form of displayed Christian piety in public. It isn't Christians who have found constitutional protectiona for abortion and sodomy where none existed before.
BTW,
It was the Catholic Church who perserved the treasures of Roman and Greek antiquity. These included such treasures as the Symposium, the Illyiad, and The Aenid. Without the Church, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Virgil, Cicero, Archemedies, Pathagorias, etc... would have been lost forever.
The Church started the first scholastic movements of the West. All of the major Univsersities in Western Europe were created by the Catholic Church. Major breakthroughs in agriculture, brewing, animal husbandy, accounting, law, the study of languages, ancient history, mathematics, and philosophy came about within Catholic orders.
It was Aquinas who first rigously developed the ideas of individual autonomy, human dignity, humand freedom, and God given rights. These ideas continued long after most Universities secularised, and evolved into the democratic ideals most take for granted.
Many of our finest early mathematicians and scientists were products of various Protestant confessions (Liebnitz, Newton, Bournelli, Euler just to name a few). Pascal gave up his scientific studies in order to be a more authentic Christian, and Newton spent more of his life studying scriptures than he did science.
I could go on, but we owe our entire civilization to the Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant religions. Our own Constitutional ideas would be impossible without our religious heritage (Read Pope BXVI's Regensberg Address to see how our heritage conflicts with Islam).
One last thing, the idea of the family as we know it today came down from the Jewish Tradition. Pagan families were altogether different. But the Jewish Tradition continued with Christianity. The idea of the Marriage Act being a Holy Sacrament, and its fruits (children)as a sign of God's love put females at a central point in civilization, and set in motion what we today call The Family. Compare that to other civilizations and you can see how blessed we are.
JP| 1.26.09 @ 9:14PM
"Stephen Ambrose had a superb observation about the Germans, particularly the SS. On many occasions, they could be just as gallant and chivalrous with their enemies as the Allies"
You must be kidding. The Totenkopf Verbande (made up of camp guards who were in former times petty and serious criminals) became the first Waffen SS division (motorized), and was responsible for the murder of over 6000 Polish civilians (priests, artistocrats, politicians, and teachers). In 1940, the SS Totenkopf murdered over 100 British prisoners of war near Arras. There is so muc h documented evidence of SS atrocities 1941-1945 (Yes, the Soviets did likewise) in Russia (many from the SS themselves) I won't waste the space.
JP| 1.26.09 @ 9:24PM
"Human suffering in the name of religion throughout history is inestimable, and yet blaming atheists for Hitler, Stalin, and Mao is your ace in the hole? That makes absolutely no sense. It's like an ethical vegan who hunts for sport. "
You must be kidding. Not only were these men atheists, but thier first targets were religions (How many divisions does the Pope have?, once asked Stalin). It was The Church that Stalin and other atheistic Communists recognized was thier true enemy. The Nazis even mimiced Christian Sacrements in thier ceremonies. Chesterton once said that when Men stop believing in God, they will believe in anything.
Atheists here may not be as violent, but they are just as much as war with Christianity as thier predecessors. It is atheists who continue to attack constitutionally even the rights for Christians to practice thier own relgion (many Bishops and most Pastors of very large churches know that the IRS monitors the content of thier sermons).
Craig | 1.26.09 @ 9:46PM
Mr. Colebatch, you automatically lost the argument in the second paragraph of your essay! Don't you know about Godwin's Law, a close relative of "reducto ad hitlarium"? The rule is, He who mentions Hitler first in an online discussion automatically loses the argument. Look it up on Wikipedia, get with the times, dude.
We have to stop comparing Christians to the Inquisition, and Atheists to Stalin. It's counterproductive and childish. There are and will always be good and bad Christians, Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Hindus, ... we're all humans, and we're imperfect.
Throwing Hitler and Stalin into every diatribe against Atheists only serves to diminish any other points you might have made.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 9:53PM
Frank, you said:
You can attribute their "reasoning" to their blind loyalty to the state. I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist, because the atheist does not need to reconcile his conscience to an all knowing Creator.
You speak as if this phenomenon were exclusive to atheists. First, it's not clear that these people you mention actually were atheists. But let's say they were. Do you suppose, then, that because they were atheists — and for no other reason — they were able to ignore their conscience? Or that they didn't have one to begin with? Would you accuse me of not having one based only on the fact that I'm an atheist?
The fact is, they believed that a higher power had given them the right to commit these acts, just as the Crusaders did, just the Inquisitors did, just as the witch hunters did, etc. They were righteous acts, God's will, right? That makes them okay, and that's why the conscience kept quiet, right?
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 9:57PM
JP said:
You must be kidding. Not only were these men atheists, but thier first targets were religions (How many divisions does the Pope have?, once asked Stalin). It was The Church that Stalin and other atheistic Communists recognized was thier true enemy. The Nazis even mimiced Christian Sacrements in thier ceremonies.
Yes, exactly. How could they claim absolute authority if people were still giving themselves over to religion? Of course they were opposed to religion. It doesn't mean that state worship is a consequence of atheism. It's the other way around. It's another form of blind faith.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 10:08PM
I should point out that my previous comment does not apply to the Nazis. Whatever Hitler believed, his followers most certainly believed they were doing God's will. Or was "God With Us" emblazoned on every soldier's belt buckle as a joke?
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 10:30PM
Ryan,
A very quick search of the internets (like 1 minute), shows that "God is with us" is the Prussian state motto and was a part of German uniforms at least back in 1847.
Do you not know the difference between the German Army and the National Socialist Workers Party, brainiac?
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 10:47PM
You don't say — really? And you think that Hitler, despite his supposed atheism and hatred of religion, would let it stay that way? What, you think I don't know that the National Socialist Workers Party was the full name of the Nazi Party? And was the Nazi Party not in power in Germany during Hitler's reign? Thus making the German Army the Nazi Army?
Okay, so more Fun With Google:
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. . . we need believing people." — Hitler, April 26, 1933, during negotiations which led to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.
"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.
Also, if Hitler was an atheist, why did he send atheists to death camps?
"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." — Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on Oct. 24, 1933.
Hitler also negotiated a treaty with the Vatican, in which German tax money was given to the church. He also extended special protection to Catholic churches and priests. The only Christians persecuted for their religious beliefs were the Jehovah's Witnesses in Poland, who were pacifists and a threat to Germany's war effort.
Jeremiah| 1.26.09 @ 10:55PM
"How could they claim absolute authority if people were still giving themselves over to religion?" Because people didn't have a choice, that's why! It was a dictatorship, damn! I'm sick and tired of dumb liberals blaming nazism on the Catholic Church, it's as stupid as blaming communism on the Orthodox Church !
Jeremiah| 1.26.09 @ 10:58PM
How do you find the time to make up so much crap? You should write for the National enquirer! This is unbelievable!
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 11:06PM
Jeremiah: So, you agree with me? That's precisely the point. These regimes eradicated religion, and then replaced it. Atheism was not the cause of this. It's a confusion of correlation and causation. Do you really think Stalin thought to himself one morning over coffee: "You know, I don't believe in God, so I should probably kill everyone who does, and then demand that everyone else worship me instead"?
And who ever blamed Nazism on the Catholics? Don't most people blame Hitler? (Well, he was a professing Catholic — but, once again, correlation and causation, not the same thing.) Although, rampant anti-Semitism, which was a major underpinning of Hitler's platform, had been historically common among the Catholics. And then there was that treaty between the Nazis and the Vatican. But no, I don't blame the Catholics. I blame Hitler.
Ryan| 1.26.09 @ 11:08PM
Jeremiah said:
How do you find the time to make up so much crap? You should write for the National enquirer! This is unbelievable!
Dude, I haven't made up a single thing. Look any of it up for yourself. I'll gladly provide references if you like. Which claim would you like me to back up?
Is this the way it's gonna be, guys? Someone gives you something you simply can't argue against, so you claim it's all made-up?
Nick| 1.27.09 @ 12:02AM
Ryan,
I never said Hitler or the Nazi's as a whole were atheists. Read my post @ 2:56PM.
I was responding to the references to the German Army belt buckle motto. You implied Hiler's followers put the motto on their uniforms. All I did was show this was fallacious. The motto had a long tradition before the nazis showed up and was not a profession of faith.
"Secular schools can never be tolerated ..." Did you get this quote from the anti-Catholic "Hitler's Pope"? You have no understanding of what a concordant is.
Your quotes prove nothing. Quote Hitler saying "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior", or "I believe in the one, holy, Catholic, apostolic Church". Then you would have an argument. But I can save you some time, there are no such quotes. Hitler was not a professed Catholic. He left the Church a long time before anybody knew who he was.
He wasn't even a Christian. He thought HE was the savior of Germany. He made the army swear an oath to himself. He thought he was god.
Hitler killed 3 million Catholic Poles and 3 million Jewish Poles in the death camps. Alot of priests died too. Is that how he gave them "special protections"?
Please stop repeating calumnies by anti-Catholic bigots.
David Govett | 1.27.09 @ 12:15AM
I don't believe in buses.
ccd| 1.27.09 @ 12:42AM
JP-I did not set up a strawman because i did not attribute a position the author. My argument was more along the lines of analogy which you could argue was flawed as a false analogy.
My principle intent was to point out the author's flaws in historical analysis: post hoc ergo prompter hoc, correlation does not imply causation, and cherry picking.
You on the other are falsely attributing positions that i did not take, i.e. that it was christians who got scotus to find a constitutional prohibition to prayer in school. The closest I came to such claims was in explaining why atheists are irritated by christians. Said motivation being that christians insist on a constitutional right to indoctrinate atheists children into religion.
As for your cherry picked examples on the accomplishments of christianity, i refer you back to my earliests statements where i noted that as secularism has grown the rate of scientific and technical progress has accelerated. Now you can reasonably argue that this is another falacy of causation, but as i stated earlier the author of the article seems to find such a fallacy acceptable.
Ryan| 1.27.09 @ 12:53AM
My remark about the belt buckle was sarcasm. Although it still stands to reason that an atheist regime wouldn't have continued with a religious tradition.
And you're right, Hitler never said those exact words, as far as anyone knows. But he did claim to be a Catholic, he did make several references to Christianity in Mein Kampf, and he never left the church. Whether he was actually a Christian is anyone's guess. I'll admit I don't know for sure, though it seems apparent that he at least wanted people to think he was a Catholic. But none of this really matters. The fact is, he was a megalomaniac, and that's why he led the Nazis to commit genocide. Not because he was an atheist, if he was.
And I'll not be back. I've made the same point over and over again, and I'm getting a little tired of talking about it. Obviously I can't convince you; your belief in Bronze Age fairy tales should've been enough in the first place to keep me from expecting you to be reasonable. Have fun being a bunch of ignorant, bigoted pricks. I'm going to go have some premarital sex and break the first four commandments in various ways.
Alan Brooks| 1.27.09 @ 1:44AM
it is all business. Richard Dawkins isnt as wealthy as Al Gore, but he will be someday.
Alan Brooks| 1.27.09 @ 1:46AM
youll not be back, Ryan? youll be too busy having empty sex with people who dont really care about you?
Nick| 1.27.09 @ 1:57AM
Ryan,
Why would you defend sarcasm?
"And you're right, Hitler never said those exact words, as far as anyone knows."
If he was a Catholic as you claim he was, he would have said the Creed every week. Tell me, professor, to what parish did Hitler belong? Where did he go to Mass every week? Hitler was as much a Catholic as you are Ryan.
" I'll admit I don't know for sure, though it seems apparent...." THOUGH IT SEEMS?
Way to stick to facts there, Ryan. Who can argue with such logic?
Or should I say who can argue with someone who just makes things up?
And neither I or Mr. Colebatch ever claimed the nazis were atheists. He just referenced that the nazis latched on to much of Nietzsche's hateful work, who was famously atheistic.
Nice ad hominem at the end. Way to stay classy Ryan.
Buffy | 1.27.09 @ 8:07AM
The signs on the buses state there's "probably" no god for two reasons. First, it was necessary to meet the requirements of the advertising committee standards. If they hadn't put "probably" in there the ads wouldn't have been accepted. Second it's more intellectually honest. Nobody can prove or disprove the existence of gods so to flat out state that they do or do not exist is dishonest. All one can do is say they do or don't believe in them, or as in this case they probably do/don't exist.
BTW, atheists don't just go around calling themselves Humanists much like all people who believe in god don't call themselves Christians or Jews. Humanism is a specific philosophy and only those who have adopted it and consider themselves Humanists call themselves Humanists. While all Humanists are atheists, atheists are not necessarily Humanists nor do they use the term as a synonym.
Finally, if you think that not believing in gods means that we think life is bleak and worthless you know nothing about being an atheist. Without the belief that we have an eternity to look forward to makes this life very precious indeed.
Norman| 1.27.09 @ 10:13AM
Buffy, actually the first Humanists (at least in the High Middle Ages and Renaissance tradition) were Christians. (The pagan Socrates certainly qualifies as a Humanist, as do other ancient Greek thinkers.)
St. Thomas More and Erasmus of Rotterdam stand out particularly in this regard. More earned his fame (and ultimate canonization) for choosing death at the hands of that ur-triangulator, King Henry VIII, rather than renounce the Church of Rome. Erasmus made his proverbial bones grappling rhetorically with that uppity Protestant agitator, Martin Luther.
In this as in virtually everything, atheists must co-opt and redefine what they cannot themselves create as, e.g., the belief that human beings have intrinsic, transcendent worth--which is the hallmark of Humanism. There is nothing inherent within atheism that recommends man as anything more than ashes and dust, a poor players who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more.
As an uppity Protestant who nonetheless admires the aforementioned Roman Catholic role models, I--like millions of others--am a Christian Humanist.
Sorry, atheists, but--yet again--we got here first . . .
Norman| 1.27.09 @ 10:24AM
Quick follow-up.
I think that what you had in mind, Buffy, was "secular humanism," rather than simply "humanism."
As my previous post suggests, however, there is a decided "tension"--if not outright inconsistency--in a secularist's claiming some privileged place for human beings.
After all, who awarded us this special place of honor and distinction?
I mean, goodness me!, who are we to claim superiority over all of those lovely snail darters and spotted owls???!!!
With apologies to everyone who's ever said, "who died and made YOU king," the person who put the "human" in "humanism" was a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth, who died to save us all, the only begotten Son of the King of Kings.
Without God, we are nothing but ashes and dust, and merit no special place or distinction. If I were an atheist, I would have no reason at all to call myself a "humanist" because I would see nothing special in being human.
I love humanity, because God loved humanity first, and showed his love by dying for us, so that we might live.
Just something to think about.
Cheers!
Norman
normanloquendi@yahoo.com
THE TRUTH| 1.27.09 @ 10:45AM
Religion is the reason we have the Middle Eastern problem. Religion was the reason Hitler put so called Jews in Camps. Religion was the reason Catholics were murdered, and Protestants were killed. Religion is the reason CHRISTIANS want to kill MOSLEMS, and the JEWS want to kill Moslems because they want their LAND.
It's Religion that the JEWS tell the rest of the world GOD spoke to them and promised them a LAND. It's Religion that no man woman or child in their right mind can ask for the evidence.
There is no person on the Planet that has the sense to ask, why are these people so greedy that they can't shair the world God gave mankind to live in. No one ask if these people are chosen why are they so wicked. Why would god choose such a wicked bunch of people to represent him on earth. Blessed are the poor, blessed are the meek, blessed are the peace makers, blessed are the rightious.
Where does it say Blessed are the liars and the thives, and the rich, and the decievers, and the adulterers, and the murderers, the fornicators. And where does God bless the ones who kill and rape children. When did God bless and reward idol worshipers?. I would advise people to return to the Bible. And know one thing you are in the last days the days or REVELATIONS.
Those who think they worship God are infact being deceived and are infact worshipping SATAN. Some and most worship the GOD of GOLD, the GOD of MONEY the GOD of EVIL.
SATAN runs this world CHRIST said my Kingdon is not of this world so it could not have been promised to any one or any RELIGION on earth. JEWS or otherwise. It was not his to give, no man is more important than another, anyone who thinks otherwise is a NAZI.
Mike Smith| 1.27.09 @ 11:24AM
JP said:
It was The Church that Stalin and other atheistic Communists recognized was thier true enemy. The Nazis even mimiced Christian Sacrements in thier ceremonies.
I think JP inadvertantly made a point for the other side. Yes, these brutal autocrats did go after Christianity. This is because they needed to replace Christianity with their new religion: state worship. JP mentions they even mixed in Christian sacrements in their ceromines. This is sort of like how the early Christian church took some ideas from existing relgions so that new converts to Christianity would not find it so alien. Stalin knew he already had a servile and credulous population, he just needed to get them to stop worshiping god, and start worshiping him. It has been repreated many times here, the problem was DOGMA. Can anyone serioulsy say religion is free of dogma. Of course not. They just replaced one kind of dogma with another.
I think JP
Robert Rosencrans| 1.27.09 @ 11:33AM
Thought for the day.
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
George Washington's Farewell Address, Sept. 17, 1796
Thought for the day Part 2:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Obama struck down a rule Friday that prohibits U.S. money from funding international family-planning clinics that promote abortion or provide counseling or referrals about abortion services.
President Obama says he doesn't want family planning to be used as a "political wedge."
President Obama says he doesn't want family planning to be used as a "political wedge."
Obama said in a statement that family planning aid has been used as a "political wedge issue," adding that he had "no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate."
The policy says any organization receiving U.S. family-planning funds from the U.S. Agency for International Development cannot offer abortions or abortion counseling.
"It is time we end the politicization of this issue," Obama said. "In the coming weeks, my administration will initiate a fresh conversation on family planning, working to find areas of common ground to best meet the needs of women and families at home and around the world."
Obama's memorandum reversing the policy comes the day after the 36th anniversary of Roe v. Wade. The landmark 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision held that a woman's right to an abortion fell within the right to privacy protected by the 14th Amendment. The ruling gave a woman autonomy over her pregnancy during the first trimester.
Mike Smith| 1.27.09 @ 11:50AM
Norman:
In regards to your statement about humanism. You are right, without God, we have no one to appoint humans as special. However, on this planet, we seem to be the only species that has some grasp of how the world works. Afterall, we are the ones discovering we are realted to chimps instead of the other way around. Personally, I don’t think humans are superior just because we are so much more intelligent, but I think that might be where secular humanists get their justifcation. We are at the top of the food chain (without factoring in all the microbes that are currently eating away at our bodies).
So both secular and religious humanists think they are superior but the difference is one group thinks that’s just how things turned out and we are simply lucky, while the other group thinks a supernatural entity planned it all this way and we are the pinnicale of his creation.
I personally don’t like the idea of being a “human supremacist” but it is hard to enjoy the fruits of modern life without using/killing countless other organisms so we can stat comfortable.
El Wayne| 1.27.09 @ 11:53AM
The Truth....dude you're cooking but you're not done yet...stick a fork in it. The Bible you exhort us to return to clearly outlines a covenant of land between the "Supposed Jews" and God. Ever hear of a thing called the Old Testament...you can't pick and choose? We'll you can but not remain honest... Are you a christian or are you a poser of somekind? I'm confused by an aparrent lack of consistency in your argument...not that any before you has remained entirely consistent.
El Wayne| 1.27.09 @ 12:46PM
Mr. Rosencrans. Thank you for your thought of the day i.e., George's farewell address. One of many examples to show that "separation" of church & US state is nothing more than a fiat. To the contrary. Our 1st prez & similar statements barely taught in schools these days...tis a pity. Change the past, change the future.
Norman| 1.27.09 @ 6:49PM
Dear Mike,
Well said. Christian Humanists assert a privileged place for human beings, based on their belief in God's having granted them such a place.
I'm still not clear, though, on the basis for the Secular Humanist's assertion of superiority over creation, which is implicit in the very concept of "Humanism."
One cannot, for instance, consistently be both a member of PETA and also a humanist (of any stripe).
I've been debating secularists in various fora for quite some time, and I have noted that they tend to shy away from ultimate questions, perhaps (as I suspect) because they deny the possibility of any ultimate answer.
Best,
Norman
Norman| 1.27.09 @ 6:52PM
El Wayne,
Interesting post. It put me in mind of the words of another "George" (actually "Eric"): "He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future."
Best,
Norman
Pete| 1.27.09 @ 7:05PM
God obviously knew that Stalin, Hitler and Mao were atheist murderers, that's why he turned them into pillars of salt.
No, hang on a minute. He didn't.
This must mean, either He didn't know (but He's All-Knowing) couldn't do the pillar of salt trick anymore (but He is omnipotent) or just didn't care (but He's such a compassionate god who IS love).
The most probable alternative though is that God is just a fairy tale after all.
Bryan| 1.28.09 @ 10:40PM
A point to ponder.
John Adams (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES) said:
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Palmpete| 1.29.09 @ 4:52PM
Bryan,
Pondered....... Why would such a clever man make such a stupid statement?
Then it became obvious.
It was made over 200 years ago, when so much of the information and invention that we now take for granted was not even conceivable.
I wonder if, given a good education in modern science, he would still make maintain a belief in the fairy tale that passed as knowledge in his day.
Bryan| 1.29.09 @ 6:06PM
Palmpete,
Repondered. (Sorry if I made that a word)
Here is another clever man with a "stupid" statement:
"[I]n the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissoluably linked with the birthday of the Savior."
- John Quincy Adams (1837)
Palmpete| 1.29.09 @ 7:18PM
I agree that it is also a "stupid" statement.
You have moved forward a mere 50years.
Adams would have had a much larger "God of the gaps" than either of us could imagine.
Think about not having germ theory, evolution, genetics and DNA decoding, atomic theory, the theories of electricity, relativity, quantum physics etc, etc, etc.
Of course he was far more likely to accept what is now obviously a fairy tale as a full explanation of the mysteries and unknowns by which he was surrounded.
It wasn't stupidity, it was just ignorance.
Bryan| 1.29.09 @ 9:32PM
Palmpete,
If the recourse for qualification to authenticity is date of authorship in statement and educational background, I'll provide a non-Founding Father statement:
Dr. Georgia Purdom (PhD in molecular genetics in 2000) says:
"... God's role as Creator becomes foundational to His role as Redeemer."
PalmPete| 1.29.09 @ 11:01PM
With due respect, now you are quoting Answers in Genesis's pin up girl. Hardly surprising she's pro-god.
Her's isn't ignorance its stupidity
There is no evidence for a god as a creator nor is the any for him as a redeemer.
Note: I had a conversation with Hal on these subjects in the very early seventies around a coffee shop table at the University of WA. He and his compatriots were unwilling to discuss gods not having turned Hitler and Stalin into a pillar of salt. Mao was still alive and active.
Our urging them to pray that He take the opportunity to do so to Mao and shut us atheists up was ignored.
At least he hasn't changed his views much in nearly 40 years
Bryan| 1.30.09 @ 1:18AM
Palmpete,
If Founding Fathers are unqualified.
If molecular geneticists are unqualified.
Who is left to represent?
Bryan| 1.30.09 @ 5:04PM
Young Earth Creationist,
Maintain your belief in the historical Christ.
Science is on your side. Whether it is the fossil record (quickly laid down - as by a flood [Noah]), DNA (no new information is added to DNA during any mutations - only loss of information is observed, plate tectonics, astronomy, paleontology, etc. etc. etc.
The Christian who believes the Bible as it is written is not surprised at how well a biblical framework fits the data.(1)
More than a century ago a scholar observed that man had not originated from a state of barbarianism, and had then risen to civilization; but wherever man has been found in a state of barbarianism, it is barbarian arising from a degenerated civilization.(2)
This observation fits well with the visable facts that we see today - 2009.
So take heart and believe as your Founding Fathers believed in the historical Savior, The Christ.
As Samuel Adams (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; "FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION"; RATIFIER OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION; GOVENOR OF MASSACHUSETTS) and many others who stood and believed and began our nation with Christian Principles as demonstrated in The Declaration, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights.
And by a personal profession:
"I...[rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."
PalmPete| 1.30.09 @ 7:48PM
Bryan
You have disclosed yourself as a full believer in the whole fairy tale who would contort evidence to fit your belief, rather than amend your tale to fit the evidence. This is a reversal of reason.
You have state your opinion on christianity, here's mine:
Christianity is perpetuating the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so that he can remove from your soul an evil force that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Although some evangelicals leave out the rather facile symbolic cannibalism, the general principles are much the same.
I find the idea that your imaginary friend can forgive you for anything very, very scary.
It means you can do anything, no matter how evil, and the next day have a clear conscience without having any consideration for any damage you may have done.
PalmPete| 1.30.09 @ 7:55PM
Bryan
"So take heart and believe as your Founding Fathers believed"
Neither this article's author, Hal Colbatch nor I live in the USA. We both live in Australia.
Your founding fathers are not the whole worlds founding fathers!
Nick| 1.30.09 @ 11:57PM
hairyPalmPete,
Nice anti-Catholic tirade, bigot.
It is the atheist who commits evil with abandon.
Palmpete| 1.31.09 @ 5:34AM
Surprise, surprise!
I am name called. Hairy Palm, Bigot. Very Xian of you, thank you for making my point.
You attack me personally, only because you cannot attack my argument. (or you would have)!
Nick| 1.31.09 @ 3:28PM
hairyPalmPete,
Bryan had already dispatched with your weak "arguments", as you call them.
You began by disrespecting people of faith. Then you called names. Then you went on an anti-Christian tirade. And you have the gall to COMPLAIN when someone treats you the same? You are the definition of hypocrisy. But then, most anti-Christian atheists are just as bigoted as you.
In the future, if you want to be treated with respect, try doing the same to others yourself.
PalmPete| 1.31.09 @ 4:25PM
Nick,
Bryan has not addressed any of my arguments at all, let alone dispatched them.
I did not disrespect people of faith, only their fairy tales.
I did not go on an anti christian tirade, I laid out the outline of their fairy tale in a way that points out how silly it actually is.
You were the first to name call and it is your blatant hypocrisy that is on display.
I do not complain about your name calling, I was expecting it, as it is clearly the only response available to you.
Nick| 1.31.09 @ 5:58PM
hairyPalmPete,
Attacking people's deeply held beliefs as "fairy tales", no that's not disrespectful at all.
Calling people you disagree with "stupid", "ignorant", and "cannibals" is NOT "name calling"? OK? Maybe not in your fantasy land it's not.
Anyone who tries to reason with an irrational bigot is waisting their time.
Keep on hating, Satan's little helper, I will pray for you in the meantime.
PalmPete| 1.31.09 @ 8:02PM
No matter how deeply people's beliefs are held, Gods existence is no more supported by evidence than any other fairy tale. How is that disrespectful?
Promising people who do not agree with the fairytale eternal damnation is though.
There is no shame in ignorance through knowledge being unavailable, in the context that I used the word (describing those whose available information is not what it would be now) it was NOT an insult.
Is not the taking of the eucharist, the symbolic taking of the body of christ? Hence my use of the term symbolic cannibalism. No insult.
Don't bother telepathically talking to your imaginary friend for me.
PS Satan is a fairy tale too!!
Nick| 1.31.09 @ 8:36PM
hairyPalmPete,
Hey, I just prayed for you again.
I'm going to pray for you again later.
And tomorrow I'll pray a Rosary for you.
PalmPete| 1.31.09 @ 9:38PM
Nick,
Nothing happened.
Nick| 1.31.09 @ 10:15PM
Pete,
Yes, something did. You didn't attack or insult me, or other Christians.
Thank you!
PalmPete| 1.31.09 @ 11:17PM
Nick
As I explained previously, I have never attacked or insulted you, only the fairy tale you appear to believe in.
Like I said, nothing happened.
Pingback| 2.2.09 @ 10:01AM
Kritikon Commonplace Book » Those Odd Atheist Bus-Slogans links to this page.
Nick| 2.2.09 @ 4:14PM
Pete,
You can't take back your politeness by attacking again.
Everyone can see for themselves, I prayed for you and in your next post you were very cordial. End of story.
May the love of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, enter your's and every non-believer's heart, Pete.
God Bless You!
PalmPete| 2.2.09 @ 5:27PM
Nick,
You still do not see that I have not in any post been impolite, but that you have.
I have never called anyone by a silly name (unlike your hairy palm) nor have I unjustifiably accused anyone of bigotry, as you did.
I attacked only the absurd fairy tale.
You are deluding yourself if you think that telepathically talking to your imaginary pal can somehow achieve anything.
If, as it appear, you are catholic, please explain to me why it is more of a sin to desecrate the eucharist (tread on a cracker) than it is to protect a pedophile by keeping information because it was obtained in a confessional rather than giving that information immediately to police.
Just curious.
Nick| 2.3.09 @ 1:22AM
Pete,
Attack all you want with your hateful diatribes. I will still love you and pray for you.
And yes, I'm Roman Catholic. God Bless you and keep you, Pete.
PalmPete| 2.3.09 @ 2:03AM
Rather than chat with your imaginary friend, spend some time thinking why it is that crackers can be more important than children. Ever!
By the way, which parts of my "hateful diatribes", as you describe them, are actually wrong? You have never actually disputed them, omly the way they were put.
Surely we can discuss issue rather than tone.
Nick| 2.3.09 @ 12:19PM
Pete,
Nice try. As I stated above, I won't waste my time trying to reason with an irrational bigot.
I love you brother. I'll keep you in my prayers.
God Bless.
Palmpete| 2.3.09 @ 2:38PM
Nick
It was a try, to encourage some discourse to engage the issues, what a waste of time.
It must be that you can not fault my logic!
You have contributed on any matter, just hurled personal abuse!!!! No content , just name calling.
May your fairy tale forgive you. You don't love me. you fear me because I point out to you the irrationality of you foolish nonsense.
And you well know saying "I'll pray for you" to an atheists both offensive (it basically says Up Yours).
And the love you rubbish you spout is just pathetic.
I have nothing against you (or anyone) it is just the fairy tale I attack.
I doubt that you would recognise a bigot. But there is one in your mirror.
Nick| 2.3.09 @ 3:06PM
Pete,
I just prayed for you again! And I will keep on praying for you, everyday. You are now on my daily prayer list! Welcome.
May the love of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, be in your heart, Pete.
Palmpete| 2.3.09 @ 3:23PM
Like I said your prayers are but thought in your head.
You have committed yourself to think of me everyday. That is your choice, I will quickly forget you.
SSG S| 2.4.09 @ 12:57AM
I love how people think atheist only bash Christians. Christians are atheist towards Allah, Osiris, Isis, Zeus, Odin, Thor, ect. All religions parallel each other an are pretty much all crap. How can you say your right and your book is right. When I can open up a MYTHOLOGY book or another religions SCRIPTURE and it be almost if no 100% the same.
All religions are cults and if you don't believe that look up the the word "cult". They started small and grew. The most recent Christian cult/sect I do believe is the Mormons who were chased and killed by other CHRISTIANS. Wow Christians killing each other it's great, also happened during the Civil War and probably every war.
I'm not an atheist. I'm not a theist. Your whole arguing point can not be proven one way or another. The human race is ignorant and religion is leading the way in the destruction of it.
People claim it's a faith thing. In fact it's who can get screwed over more, the believer or nonbeliever. I don't get bashed by my fellow theist for not donating money. I'm not told my group is better than another group that believes in the same god.
It has been proven that Christians are extremist, Hindus are extremist, Muslims are extremist, Buddhist are extremist, Jews are extremist, and probably every other sector, even those damn Pastafarians.
If you really look into it. Who makes the choice to get up in the morning. Who's choice is it to shower, brush your teeth, poop in your pants (or not). You make these choices and you can CHOOSE not too. Atheist aren't bad people and neither are theist it's that great thing that everyone has called a BRAIN which some choose not to use.
Most hardcore Theist were brought up to believe in their god. I was brought up that way and I still remember to this day getting thrown out of church because as I five year old child I would scream "There is no Jesus!" over and over. As a child I knew this was a story and I'm glad my asshole parents weren't church fanatics.
If you really think about it also, religion has given us overall a sense of fear (if we do wrong or don't believe in the right god we'll suffer for eternity) and war (I don't like you because your not like me, as a 4 year old would say). It did good during the times, all mythologies did. They helped tell stories to explain the things that couldn't be explained.
I just think if you believe in any god you have to believe in psychics, faith healers, mediums, dowsers, ghost, dick enlargement pills, breast enhancement pills, ect. Well you don't but your more likely too. Also if you really look into it, none of them, except the person preaching it, are real. I can freaking talk to dead people too or tell you your spirit guides name and I'm actually 99% accurate and known the world over.
All in all, you have a freaking BRAIN, use it thinking on how you can better yourself, the people around you, and the world. All "God's" and Deities kill, we should be better than that and all Atheist I know are.
P.S. There's more Atheist in foxholes now than I can count, and we have to put up with a Christian backed military with our Jewish, Pagan, Wiccan, Muslims, ect brothers and sisters. This is why Atheist hate Christians (in America and other Christian dominated areas) it's different in those of different beliefs. If you can prove god exist or I'm wrong on anything beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll gladly tell you thank you and show you my gratitude for teaching me and ENLIGHTENING me.
SSG S| 2.4.09 @ 1:15AM
Sorry about the Mormon thing I just remembered L Ron Hubbard who wrote FICTIONAL books just created a religion which we now know as Scientology which I honestly do believe once you are actually in and paid your dues find out it is a joke and is just making fun of religions.
For all you Mormons out there, your not allowed in Islamic countries since the last prophet was Muhammad not Joseph Smith and will be killed, I'm sorry.
Nick| 2.4.09 @ 1:00PM
Pete,
"...I will quickly forget you."
Is that why you've been coming back to this thread for the past 5 days!
Prayed for you again, may you know the Love of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. God Bless.
ltb| 2.4.09 @ 7:54PM
christians r bothered by atheists for the same reason that atheists r bothered by christians. this controversy isn't anything new.. this has been an ongoing issue for thousands of years. The issue is very simple either u believe in God or u don't believe in God. people should just appreciate and respect people for their religious/spiritual beliefs instead of getting soooo emotional and worked up over it. Honestly, if your a God fearing individual no amount of "bus slogans" etc. is going to make u believe any differently and the same goes for those that don't believe in a God.
But take note: if someone believes in God, and then found out for absolute certainty that God does not exist, no harm no foul...right? right!
But now on the other hand: if you don't believe in God, and there really IS a God, look out! I feel sorry for you....
So which is the safer ultimatum? Any normal thinking person would choose option A (peace of mind)
Nick| 2.6.09 @ 8:21PM
Pete,
I win.
PalmPete| 2.8.09 @ 3:30PM
lgb.
"if you don't believe in God, and there really IS a God, look out! I feel sorry for you...."
Hmmm, Pascal's Wager. Just in case no one has ever pointed this out to you, the same situation occurs if you believe in the wrong god.
Fortunately there is no evidence for any of them, so stop worrying and enjoy your life.
Nick| 2.8.09 @ 4:12PM
Pete,
Your back! What a coincidence. I was praying for you just as you were writing your last post!
I thought you were going to stop thinking about me? God Bless You and Keep You.
PalmPete| 2.8.09 @ 4:51PM
hello Nick,
You will notice that my comment was addressed to lgb.
You are indulging your ego to think that you were a factor in my posting.
Your delusion knows no bounds.
Nick| 2.8.09 @ 5:40PM
Pete,
Actually you were addressing ltb, not lgb.
But it has been a week and half, how are you going to quickly forget me if you keep coming back to this thread?
It was the "I win" post that got under your skin, wasn't it? I apologize, that was a bit of gloating on my part. But it did serve its purpose.
I have no ego, Pete, really. I just wish to praise the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Love ya! May God Bless and Keep You.
PalmPete| 2.8.09 @ 7:10PM
Nick,
You say you have no ego, but when I come back to see the progress on the discussion of Hal's (of whom I have been aware for over 35 years) article you claim it is because of you!
The mind boggles at this level of ego.
The "I win" nonsense you posted did not get under my skin at all, in fact I was unable to work out what it was you (you without ego!) claimed to have won.
Nick| 2.8.09 @ 11:45PM
Pete,
Keep sailing down that river in Egypt.
And why can't you seem to understand what I've written? I have not been claiming that you've been coming back here because of me. It is Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who deserves all the credit for your inability to forget, not I.
May the Love of Christ the Lord enter yout heart, Pete. Peace be with you.
Laura from Pasadena| 2.9.09 @ 8:28PM
Atheists give a lot of power to religion. The new atheists who have recently written books have all addressed how bad religion is. I'm waiting for the book that tells how great atheism is. The author should try not to use moral terms borrowed from Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism or Christianity, such as "goodness", "peace", "love", "balance". Atheists need to develop and explain their own morality, instead of merely reacting to religion.
PalmPete| 2.11.09 @ 11:28PM
Laura,
To suggest that goodness, peace, love and balance are exclusive to Hindus , Buddhists Jews and Christians is neither true nor respectful. They notions are common to all mankind, including the believers you left out (Islam and all the world's other faiths) and atheists.
Check your dictionary, you will find that it does not contain a warning that none of these words may be used by atheists.
Do not expect a book stating how good atheism is any sooner than one telling how great not believing in fairies is. Or unicorns, or leprechauns, or any other imaginary beings.
Atheists do not have a common philosophy, the only thing they have in common is their disbelief on a god or gods.
Nick| 2.13.09 @ 4:30AM
Pete,
Glad to see you're still coming back!
"...the only thing they have in common is their disbelief on a god or gods."
Actually they have three. The others being that when they totally take over a state, they first imprison and/or kill bishops, priests, and nuns; and then go on to murder significant portions, some of them millions, of their own population. All of them.
God Bless.
PalmPete| 2.13.09 @ 6:25PM
Nick
How many examples of national leaders would it take for me to show you that your previous statement is wrong?
This is a real, not rhetorical question.
Nick| 2.14.09 @ 12:13AM
Pete,
I didn't say "national leaders", I said totally take over country. As in revolution. As in control of all levels of power. They always promise equality and elections, but it never turns out that way.
So rebut what I actually wrote, not your straw man.
Nick| 2.14.09 @ 12:16AM
And May God Bless You!
PalmPete| 2.15.09 @ 7:59PM
Oh, you mean absolute dictators.
Well there's not a lot of examples of good ones of any persuasions is there. There are also many examples of catholics and protestants being somewhat unpleasant to each other on taking absolute power too.
Surely your omnipotent imaginary friend could have turned the few atheist dictators ,you are so fond of raising, into pillars of salt? He's done that one before hasen't he?
This must mean, either He didn't know (but He's All-Knowing) couldn't do the pillar of salt trick anymore (but He is omnipotent) or just didn't care or supported their actions(but He's such a compassionate god who IS love).
Or maybe its all a fairy tale after all.
PS from now on eack time say that you pray for me I promise to think a blasphemous thought on your behalf.
Nick| 2.16.09 @ 1:04AM
Pete,
It was obvious what I meant.
In the long history of Christians controlling the reins of power of a country, few come even close to the barbarism of atheist regimes. In the rather short history of 200 years, your fellow atheists (after taking control of a country by force), have murdered tens of millions.
To compare the few examples of bad Christian rulers over a millennia with the perfect record of butchery from your atheist peers is truly comparing apples and oranges. If Christianity had the same track record as atheism, I would seriously reconsider it's propriety.
And now you are repeating yourself with the pillar of salt thing. Not too many arrows in your intellectual quiver is there?
It's an absurd point, by the way. God never turned ANY ruler into a pillar of salt. In fact, He only did it once. So to imply this is proof He doesn't exist, because He won't do something He has never done, is preposterous. Must be atheist logic.
Thanks for showing God some respect with your use of capitals.
Just prayed for you again. God Bless You!
Question: How can you blapheme someone in Whom you don't believe?
PalmPete| 2.16.09 @ 7:16AM
"In the long history of Christians controlling the reins of power of a country, few come even close to the barbarism of atheist regimes."
If you seriously believe that you need to study some European and British history.
I repeated myself deliberately as you did not previously respond to it.
Are you seriously suggesting that Lot's wife's crimes were more serious than your cherished dictators.
I can't blaspheme someone I don't believe in, but I can certainly blaspheme someone YOU believe in. If your god exists he will certainly know that each blasphemy is down to you.
Nick| 2.16.09 @ 8:27AM
Pete,
It's not belief, it's history. You didn't name any Christian rulers because you can't.
I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Is English your second language? I showed your point was ridiculous because God doesn't go around turning evildoers into pillars of salt. So asking why He didn't turn the evil atheist dictators into salt pillars when He never has throughout history is asinine. But keep on serving up the straw men and I'll keep on knocking them down.
Lot's wife's only "crime" was disobedience. She turned herself into salt. I erred earlier saying God "did it". But either way, I still never compared her sin to those of atheist dictators.
God is just and good. He doesn't punish people for the sins of others, Pete.
May God's Grace and Love Enter Your Heart, Pete. Love ya!
Nick| 2.16.09 @ 8:41AM
By the way,
One can only blaspheme God, not a person, or make-believe. So you're tacitly acknowledging the existence of your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
PalmPete| 2.17.09 @ 1:17AM
Would you like to discuss Robert Mugabe?
I suggest the christian as he is still the dictator of Zimbabwe and we all know how great things are there.
The punishment that Lot's wife received is an example of (your imaginary) god punishing a living person for a sin. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot (the examples I assume you mean) all died of old age. He wasted a perfect opportunity to shut we atheists up, but nothing happened, did it?
But that was so last century, lets talk about god punishing (with cholera, AIDS and poverty) people for the sins of Robert Mugabe.
I have previously pointed out that offers of prayer to an atheist are taken us a gesture of arrogant self righteousness and are insulting yet you persist, so here goes.
I intend to blaspheme the god that you believe in, I don't believe in one. If one does exist he knows that you are causing him to be insulted when you pray for me. If your god exists he is going to be very angry with you soon. If not no problem.
Personally I don't think you need to worry about it. But the obscene positions I had Mary (with the one way vagina(which I don't believe either)) and the 3 wise men I had orgying with her in the blasphemy I thought on your behalf were a laugh.
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 2:33PM
Pete,
Robert Mugabe? Isn't he the villian in this season of "24"? No wait, he's the obscure former MARXIST dictator of Zimbabwe, right? And it was his Moaist policies that ruined the country, wasn't it?
Mugabe? Really, Pete? That's all you got? He's a piker. He doesn't even come close to the murders of even Castro, let alone the biggies. You should get the book "The Black Book of Communism".
What happened to Lot's wife was a consequence of her ignoring the warning given by the angels, not a punishment for her sin. If I told you not to play in traffic, and you did anyway and are killed, did I punish you for your disobedience?
There are plenty of examples in the Bible of God smiting sinners and enemies, Herod (Acts 12) being just one. Lot's wife is not one of them. This shows your ignorance of both the Bible and theology.
While God did smite some of His enemies, He didn't do it to prove He existed. He has allowed many evildoers to live to old age. We all have free will, Pete. Judgement comes after death. So again, you have no point.
You can only blaspheme God. No one believes Our Lady or the Magi are God. What you did was irreverent and insulting and hateful, not blasphemy. I forgive you, and pray for you repent of your sins.
Like I said above, you have free will, so your sin is on you, not me. I can't make you do anything. Christ commands me to pray for His enemies, so I will.
But thanks to you Pete, I'm now praying for all atheists everyday. I give you credit for all the conversions to Christ that result.
I love you brother, May God Bless!
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 11:27PM
Pete,
Is there someone close to you who might need someone to pray for them? Someone who is sick maybe? I am being sincere, not sarcastic, Pete.
PalmPete| 2.18.09 @ 1:41AM
Mugabe is the CURRENT dictator of Zimbabwe.
He is still killing, maybe if you read something about current affairs you would not be terribly keen on this christian.
Don't make me think heretical thoughts on your behalf anymore. Your god knows I am doing it in retaliation for your actions (of your own free will) and I am sure he will be getting sorely annoyed at you.
Clinical trails proved that knowing people are preying for you has a negative impact on recovery from illness.
So you ask if you can do harm to people close to me. Get real!
Nick| 2.18.09 @ 12:18PM
Pete,
Actually Mugabe is the curent PRESIDENT of Zimbabwe, per the power sharing arrangement of last September. It is that to which I was referring.
I'm not keen on any murderers, be they atheists, Shintoists, Muslims, Christian, etc. But again, Mugabe isn't even in the same league as your fellow atheists, sorry. Nor is any other Christian despot. But you keep looking for one, Pete. You won't find one.
But rather than search in vain, why not aquaint yourself with someone like Antony Flew? He was a Darwinian atheist who is now a Deist. Then there are authors Malcolm Muggeridge and C.S. Lewis, both worth your time and energy.
And I'm glad you stopped trying to defend that pillar of salt inanity. It shows growth and an ability to learn from one's mistakes. That's real progress.
Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, loves you and me. While He may get annoyed at me when I reject His love, by sinning, He isn't annoyed when I pray for other sinners. It was His command.
And even though you reject Him, Pete, He will always love you. His love is infinite. There is nothing you can do to lose His love. So just accept it.
Love as always, God Bless You!
Nick| 2.19.09 @ 12:11AM
Pete,
I just found out that Chris Hitchens was beaten up in Beirut. Maybe this is the proof of God punishing an atheist you've been looking for?
Take care.
Nick| 2.25.09 @ 3:24PM
Pete,
Still looking for those mass murdering "Christian" despots? I told you, you won't find any, OK?
May God Bless and Keep You and Your Loved Ones Who are Sick.
PalmPete| 2.26.09 @ 11:17PM
Nick,
Your 12.11 am post of 2.19.09 made me decide to not bother with you any more.
You clearly know nothing about anything much and aren't worth talking to.
I should have let you know earlier I suppose so that you didn't thing my departure was some kind of victory for you, sorry for that.
I do hope as you become a mature adult you will come to realize that god is, after all, just a fairy tale, you can make your own decisions.
Hopefully you will not waste too much of your precious time (or money) on supporting myths, before you come to this realization.
Nick| 2.27.09 @ 1:32AM
Pete,
No, you're giving up because you were sure history was replete with "Christain" mass murderers, and now you know it is not. You also can't refute my other arguments.
I want to thank you again for getting me to pray for all the atheists in the world. Before, I only prayed for you guys evey once in a while, whenever it popped into my head. But now it's part of my daily routine, all because of you Pete. I won't forget you, that's for sure.
I hope your loved ones get well soon, they're still in my prayers also. God Bless You Always, Pete.
p.s. Come on, the timing of the Hitchens thing was a little bit funny, admit it.
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Susan Brei| 3.4.10 @ 6:23PM
A boring article for a boring subject. People either believe in God or they don't. Many don't even have control over the way they feel. If we could relegate this to the category of "non-issue" (as it is), follow our country's laws, and live until we die without worrying about it, we'd all be better off. It's when people on EITHER side try to force their beliefs on others that the trouble begins. Keep it to yourself!
Look at it this way. Either God exists, and He handed us a set of rules that- if we choose to follow them- will result in everlasting life... or there is no God, and humans invented the idea of God to get everyone to agree to a set of rules (based on past experience), offering the fantasy of eternal life as a reward. There is NO PROOF that EITHER SCENARIO is not TRUE. Just a large pile of personal testimonials from BOTH sides.
Let's DROP THIS ISSUE, PLEASE!!
Nick| 3.20.10 @ 1:30AM
Miss Brei,
You do realize that you are responding to a year old article, right?
wangsir| 4.3.10 @ 5:30AM
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sajian| 4.22.10 @ 1:18AM
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I’ll have a Poptropica full written walkthrough very soon, but in the meantime, here are some answers to some of the frequently asked questions about Mythology Island. Having trouble? Post a question in the comments and I’ll try to answer it!
Getting Hercules to Help You
Hercules won’t help you until you have all five items from Zeus’ quest. Once you have the five items, bring them to Athena. Zeus will appear and steal them. The big jerk! Once this happens, talk to Athena and she will tell you that Hercules will help you. You’ll need to have the magic mirror from Aphrodite because Hercules doesn’t want to have to walk. He’s so lazy!
Getting the Hydra Scale
You can see how to do this in the videos, but basically you need to jump up when the Hydra is about to strike. He will rear one of his heads back to attack and his eyes will bulge out. When this happens, jump up in the air and then try to land on top of his head. That head will get knocked out. PoptropicaWhen all five heads get knocked out, the Hydra will be asleep and you can click on him to get one of the scales. Poptropica I’ll have a Poptropica full written walkthrough very soon, but in the meantime, here are some answers to some of the frequently asked questions about Mythology Island. Having trouble? Post a question in the comments and I’ll try to answer it!
Getting Hercules to Help You
Both FIFA and UEFA have awards which they hand out to individuals or groups of people who have promoted what they see as the spirit of ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010
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. Despite having a goal scoring opportunity while playing for West Ham United against Everton, when Di Canio saw the Everton goalkeeper had picked up an injury, instead of scoring what could have been the easiest goal of his career, he caught the ball, thus stopping ArenaBetting.com dukung fair play FIFA world cup AFSEL 2010
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Hercules won’t help you until you have all five items from Zeus’ quest. Once you have the five items, bring them to Athena. PoptropicaZeus will appear and steal them. The big jerk! Once this happens, talk to Athena and she will tell you that Hercules will help you. You’ll need to have the magic mirror from Aphrodite because Hercules doesn’t want to have to walk. He’s so lazy!
Getting the Hydra Scale Poptropica
You can see how to do this in the videos, but basically you need to jump up when the Hydra is about to strike. PoptropicaHe will rear one of his heads back to attack and his eyes will bulge out. When this happens, jump up in the air and then try to land on top of his head. That head will get knocked out. When all five heads get knocked out, the Hydra will be asleep and you can click on him to get one of the scales. Poptropica
asdfasdf| 4.26.10 @ 5:06AM
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out raged| 10.30.10 @ 4:08PM
absolute rubbish, the thing that most upsets me about this artiticle and most of the others Ive read written about these bus slogans written by outraged bile filled christians is that they seem to have completely missed the point, in that it is a reaction to the constant bombardment the rest of us have to endure from the propagander departments of their and their rival religious groups.