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Invincible Ignorance

By on 12.18.12 @ 6:00AM

Anti-gun zealots continue to deny the facts.

Must every tragic mass shooting bring out the shrill ignorance of “gun control” advocates?

The key fallacy of so-called gun control laws is that such laws do not in fact control guns. They simply disarm law-abiding citizens, while people bent on violence find firearms readily available.

If gun control zealots had any respect for facts, they would have discovered this long ago, because there have been too many factual studies over the years to leave any serious doubt about gun control laws being not merely futile but counterproductive.

Places and times with the strongest gun control laws have often been places and times with high murder rates. Washington, D.C., is a classic example, but just one among many.

When it comes to the rate of gun ownership, that is higher in rural areas than in urban areas, but the murder rate is higher in urban areas.

The rate of gun ownership is higher among whites than among blacks, but the murder rate is higher among blacks. For the country as a whole, handgun ownership doubled in the late 20th century, while the murder rate went down.

The few counterexamples offered by gun control zealots do not stand up under scrutiny. Perhaps their strongest talking point is that Britain has stronger gun control laws than the United States and lower murder rates.

But, if you look back through history, you will find that Britain has had a lower murder rate than the United States for more than two centuries— and, for most of that time, the British had no more stringent gun control laws than the United States. Indeed, neither country had stringent gun control for most of that time.

In the middle of the 20th century, you could buy a shotgun in London with no questions asked. New York, which at that time had had the stringent Sullivan Law restricting gun ownership since 1911, still had several times the gun murder rate of London, as well as several times the London murder rate with other weapons.

Neither guns nor gun control were the reason for the difference in murder rates. People were the difference.

Yet many of the most zealous advocates of gun control laws, on both sides of the Atlantic, have also been advocates of leniency toward criminals.

In Britain, such people have been so successful that legal gun ownership has been reduced almost to the vanishing point, while even most convicted felons in Britain are not put behind bars. The crime rate, including the rate of crimes committed with guns, is far higher in Britain now than it was back in the days when there were few restrictions on Britons buying firearms.

In 1954, there were only a dozen armed robberies in London but, by the 1990s— after decades of ever-tightening gun ownership restrictions — there were more than a hundred times as many armed robberies.

Gun control zealots’ choice of Britain for comparison with the United States has been wholly tendentious, not only because it ignored the history of the two countries, but also because it ignored other countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States, such as Russia, Brazil and Mexico. All of these countries have higher murder rates than the United States.

You could compare other sets of countries and get similar results. Gun ownership has been three times as high in Switzerland as in Germany, but the Swiss have had lower murder rates. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership and low murder rates include Israel, New Zealand, and Finland.

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About the Author

Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305. His website is www.tsowell.com. To find out more about Thomas Sowell and read features by other Creators Syndicate columnists and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (68) |

Darin| 12.18.12 @ 6:47AM

Rather than debating gun control laws, pose this question to liberals. "Can you give me an example of any law or regulation which a criminal will obey when that law or regulation is contrary to the criminal act they intend to perform?"

Al Brooks, BLEEDINGHEART | 12.18.12 @ 4:44PM

Sowell made sense when he was young, today Sowell = Senile:

"The key fallacy of so-called gun control laws is that such laws do not in fact control guns. They simply disarm law-abiding citizens"

Grassy knoll thinking.

Simon Templar| 12.18.12 @ 5:02PM

A perfect example of what Sowell was referring to as invincible ignorance.
Uh, that is not a counterargument..post when you have something to actually offer to the discussion.

Riff Raff| 12.18.12 @ 5:04PM

In all the years I have read and posted on AS, Brooks has not once had anything substantive or logical to post. Brooks does not think. He emotes.

MacWell™| 12.18.12 @ 8:04PM

In all fairness Riff Raff, this is, by it's nature, an emotional issue. 20 sweet, innocent babies were slaughtered. They never harmed anyone, they never voted against anything, they were, in fact, defenseless, as was the entire school. The emotional issue aside, common sense dictates that laws have NO meaning to criminals, by their very nature. I live in such a restrictive state, and, if I could, I'd move, circumstances prevent it. Being armed, and learning true gun safety, is the BEST thing we the people could do to honor the precious ones who's lives were snuffed out by this madman.

UpChuck.Liberals| 12.18.12 @ 9:22PM

Before the ban on guns in the UK, the 15 year death rate was 8642 For the 15 years AFTER it was 11203. Yep, gun control works so well. Source: http://www.murderuk.com/misc_crime_stats.html

BTW a few days ago a man used a hammer to kill his neighbor in Florida should we ban assault hammers?

spike59| 12.19.12 @ 5:45AM

"The key fallacy of so-called gun control laws is that such laws do not in fact control guns. They simply disarm law-abiding citizens"

-----------------------------------------------
only total stupidity would equate the simple and irrefutable logic of this statement with 'grassy knoll thinking'....AB, you are an utter MORON

Appleby| 12.18.12 @ 7:07AM

Using the same "logic" that those eager to punish the guns for the crime the man committed, we note that the largest number of mass killings in public places are committed by men ages 18-30. By the "logic" of the Gun Banners, should we not immediately incarcerate ALL men 18-30? Won't Anyone Think Of The Children?

Up here in Canada, otherwise known as We're Not America, we Americans have been harangued every time one of these young men (or "toddlers" as they are known in Canada) cuts loose, insisting that if we were only more like them, we wouldn't have all this trouble. The truth is, if we were more like Canada, Canada would be an empty, howling wilderness. It's only the fact that we are NOT like Canada that allows them to continue to exist. But every time one of these young men blasts away at the populace, I have to hear the same patronizing condemnation from the ignoranti.

Petronius| 12.18.12 @ 11:59AM

A
I congratulate you on coining the new Word, "ignoranti" Such people should be Ostrichized; never allowed to lift their heads above ground.
Cheers and have a Merry_______.

Appleby| 12.18.12 @ 3:59PM

I didn't coin ignoranti; first read it in a British children's story called "The Children of Green Knowe." The story was written when most children had a passing acquaintance with Latin.

Merry Christmas, by the way.

PolishKnight| 12.18.12 @ 12:07PM

Hehehe. Appleby, this has already largely been the case for the past 50 years or so with goodies/carrots being given to women two handed by the taxpayers and society and for men, jail terms and "child" support liens. Then all the problems of society are heaped upon men just as socialists simultaneously blame the wealthy for all the problems of the world while simultaneously asking them to pay for the solution.

Joellen| 12.18.12 @ 8:05AM

Actually I wonder if it is ignorance or if they are deliberately trying to distract and distort the truth so that they can perpetuate more chaos out of such criminal events.

Al Adab| 12.18.12 @ 12:54PM

Every evil perpetrated, every anecdotal sadness only serves to further their claim for total control over the citizenry. That is their goal.

BTW, I appreciated your posts yesterday, but the site was having such trouble that I could not respond. Merry Christmas.

Joellen| 12.18.12 @ 2:22PM

Thanks Al, a Blessed CHRISTMAS wished for you and your love ones. Keep praying my Brother.

Al Adab| 12.18.12 @ 3:13PM

And to you and yours.

Frank Drackman| 12.18.12 @ 9:02AM

Ironically, the nations most "Liberal" gun laws(in the original meaning of the word)are found in that bastion of Granola-Crunching-Birkenstock-wearing-Tax-a-chussetts-refugees, Vermont.
Statewide concealed carry(including full auto if the appropriate federal procedures have been completed)No discrimination against any guns simply because they were born with a bayonet lug or flash suppressor, and...........
I remember a Summer Med School Rotation at the University of Vermont.
OK, I failed a class, and it was either Vermont or New Orleans.
Took a chick back to my room one day to "Study", through my backpack(yes I had a backpack)on the bed, and out tumbled my Model 28 Smith & Wesson "Highway Patrolman" 357..
"IS THAT A GUN????!!!!!" She fairly shrieked.
"No, its a waffle iron" I said in my best Sam Spade..
You remember that scene in "Goodfellas" where Lorraine Bracco gets all turned on when Ray Liotta gives her a gun to hide?
Well it was like that, except I hid a different gun, Nome Sane?!?!?
Hey it was 1985, I edited out the part when I snorted Coke out of her bellybutton...

Frank "Here's lookin at your snatch, kid" Drackman

Flyslow| 12.18.12 @ 12:14PM

How did you make it to med shcool if didn't get past your sophomore year?

Frank Drackman| 12.18.12 @ 1:16PM

what?

Anthony| 12.18.12 @ 3:06PM

Whoa Frankie, you've been on some kind of roll likely; but anyway, you give new context to crack cocaine.

irish19| 12.19.12 @ 1:33AM

LMFAO! Crack cocaine indeed!

Petronius| 12.18.12 @ 11:54AM

Their ignorance is deliberate. The want to control circumstance as They want No Limits on Their BEHAVIOR. They also love gun control as a political vehicle for Their true objective: Absolute Power. And this time They will enjoy even more than in 1993 as the Jello spine Congress will bend over because now as it was then; "it's for the CHILDREN." Next to Power, Their greatest desire is emotional satisfaction. That comes from the result that will follow prohibition of private firearm ownership; eradicating Self Interest. Those still living on that day will experience a degree of despotism as Americans cannot imagine. But we are will remain armed until Our lives end one way or the other.

Kwan| 12.18.12 @ 12:16PM

Let's not be expecting too much of a solution by the left in solving any of the country's problems. The left's non-solutions always are based on how can we reduce the freedom of the population, and at the same time make them believe it’s for their own good. Actually making a legitimate attempt to rationally solve a problem is not what the left does. With one of the most radical left-wing wannabe dictators currently President of the United States, disarming the population is no doubt high on his things to do list.

fmm| 12.18.12 @ 12:26PM

And he or his cronies don't give a damn about any of the 20 children killed in this tragedy. They only care about the political advantage they might get out of the episode.

Kwan| 12.18.12 @ 2:48PM

That's right. Within micro-seconds of this tragedy in Newtown the left-wing propaganda machine -the MSM- was calling for stricter gun control. Guns can be for sport or self defense. No doubt a totalitarian government is not comfortable with victims I mean citizens being able to protect themselves.

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 12:44PM

Rational thought has no “utility” in a “democracy” or MOB rule culture. Such cultures are ruled by unrestrained emotion and ruthless ambition by those who seek to profit from it. The meaning of words change course like the wind and seasons. The law only means what it means at the moment the current MOB says it means something. It will mean something else tomorrow. The law givers become the jailers for those that lead the packs….

The classics in history are full of this story told again and again but insanity keeps repeating itself despite the age of “free education” and the “information age” with devices at everyone’s fingertips that make finding the truth as easy as falling off a log. Whoever writes our history will have an enormous task sorting through all the Barbara Streisand our culture puts out but the truth will be the same it has always been throughout time. A simple truth no one can find for all the clutter.

Al Adab| 12.18.12 @ 12:51PM

Thom:
You are even closer to the truth than you imagine. Facts and reason will never change the Faith of these people. It is but another example of the misguided belief in central planning and total control by government over its subjects (not citizens).

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 2:56PM

"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt"

Go back in time as far as you can and you will find people who simply believe their “truth” is the right one. Mankind will rationalize anything if they can find a way to be free from the consequences even a short period of time. I saw all I needed to see with the Democrat(Marxist) Party in 1994 to realize I needed to adopt my mindset and prepare for the worst in what is left of my lifetime. Our society reads like a Tolkien novel and still vast numbers don’t want to accept the truth of it. The Orcs are pouring out of Mordor… It is just a matter of time before all reason is gone from this place. I had kind of hoped to miss that part of the novel.

Al Adab| 12.18.12 @ 3:16PM

Again on point. Avoidance of the consequences of their choice is symptomatic of the evil which grows stronger every day.

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 4:38PM

Yep. That's why I continue to say, "an enduring weakness of democracy is its lack of accountability"

Without accountability there is no built in mechanism to balance out the emotion that drives democracies to ruin. “good men” as the saying goes have abandoned one founding principle after another for the last 150 odd years for the sake of a temporary gain in personal power (Legacy). “Do something” and “conventional wisdom” have laid the foundation of our ruin going back well before my birth. I was born into involuntary servitude by generations before my birth. My parent’s generation added to that in the 60s. My generation is piling on to that and risking the fate of the nation in a quest for absolute power of “good intentions”. The farmers, bankers, merchants that fought a war to build something better for themselves and future generations thought long and hard about thousands of years of failure at self-rule. There were a handful of Framers who did not sign onto the Constitution because it had weaknesses. You are living the world Adams spoke about when he said our form of government is only fit for a moral people. Thieving from one citizen to buy the vote of another citizen is just one of our many transgressions against a moral concept.

dominic1955| 12.18.12 @ 12:53PM

Leftists and all statists need to control, they need to have people beholden to their "care", they cannot stand personal responsibility or anything traditionally considered virtuous.

This has nothing to do with protecting lives. His Most Serene Wunderfulness was fine with letting babies born in a botched abortion sit on a shelf in a utility room to die. He allows unmanned drones to rain down destruction on women and children.

As one of his predecessors in power-hungry psycopathology once said, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." You can get the soft suburbanites rending garments and hand-wringing for Gubmint to take away their rights when they see something bad happen to kids like their own they strap into the back seat of their Volt or Prius. The 1.5 munchkins they allowed to live look a lot like the ones that got shot in CT. Not having any real sense of personal responsibility (even if they had to make use of it to some degree to get jobs and keep them) they look to our lord and savior (sic) to protect them. They run on impulse and emotion. Guns scare them, even though it is irrational to be afraid of an inanimate object like that.

I am ashamed that these are the kinds of people that run this country now. Just turn over the keys of the White House to the Red Chinese already.

Bob S| 12.18.12 @ 12:58PM

Must every tragic mass shooting bring out the shrill ignorance of “gun control” advocates?

Of course Thomas, their mantra is "don't let a good crisis go to waste".

JmsA| 12.18.12 @ 1:28PM

"Homo homini lupus est" (Man is wolf to man) --Titus Maccius Plautus

You can restrict access to guns and even outlaw some guns, but you can't eliminate evil. Guns in the hands of those not in the service of government, who live by the mandates of God and the Constitution, is all that stands between us and tyranny.

Louis Jenkins| 12.18.12 @ 1:28PM

From Sultan Kish today:

"Do we want a society run by the flower of chivalry, who commit atrocities according to a plan for a better society, or by peasants with machine guns? The flower of chivalry can promise us a utopian world without evil, but the peasant with a machine gun promises us that we can protect ourselves from evil when it comes calling."

Alan's Girl| 12.18.12 @ 1:31PM

Gun control, like abortion is a liberal, emotional "trigger" (pun intended) issue. It is used to raise heartcries of the general population, & many times- to divert our attention from more pressing, & truly 'controllable' issues.
My question would be: why this young man's mother had "uncontrolled' weapons in her house with a dependent that had apparent, though undiagnosed, psychological problems. AND, to blame Asperger's Syndrome as responsible for the actions of this young man only shows the lack of understanding of kids with AS. As a gun owner, you take responsibility for your weapons & ammo, especially when young people are present. Do not stomp on my 2nd Amendment rights because of the actions of a mentally disturbed person or the inactions of an irresponsible parent.

Appleby| 12.18.12 @ 4:05PM

Aspbeger's doesn't cause criminal behaviour. My Uncle Jules suffered from it, and he was the wealthiest and most successful of my Mama's siblings and honest as the day is long. In fact, he built the house that George W. Bush lives in today. My very successful nephew also suffers from Aspberger's and he is a charming young man. Both Uncle Jules and my nephew suffer(ed) from in-your-head-and-out-your-mouth syndrome and just blurt(ed) out whatever unfiltered thoughts he had regardless of time or place. Mama loved her brothe but often said it was amazing nobody had killed him for his big unregulated mouth.

Riff Raff| 12.18.12 @ 1:31PM

Politicians who use atrocities like this shooting to advance gun control know full well (at least most of them do, some are just plain stupid people) that gun control does not control crime. Let me state this categorically: gun control advocates WANT events such as this to happen because it is good for politics. Gun control advocates do not care a whit for human life other than their own. They are quietly happy to see innocent people gunned down because it means they can exploit their deaths for their own politics. This is not about crime control, it is about people control. The GOAL is disarmament of the People so that the People will offer no resistance to the tyrannical impulses of politicians. To these people, Politics trumps everything, and I mean EVERYTHING!
Fighting crime is simple: Arm yourself for personal defense and punish those who commit crimes. Democrats do just the opposite. Democrats disarm VICTIMS and release criminals. Democrats find any excuse imaginable to release convicted criminals from prison and to not convict and imprison them in the first place. Democrats used the courts and legislatures to release those who previously would be institutionalized for severe mental disorders, so now the streets are crawling with the insane. Democrats do these things then just sit back and wait for events like this to happen so Democrats can exploit it for their own politics. This is no accident. It is intentional. Politics trumps everything.

spoofproof | 12.18.12 @ 2:37PM

RR sez: This is not about crime control, it is about people control. The GOAL is disarmament of the People so that the People will offer no resistance to the tyrannical impulses of politicians.

I ask: How much of that tyrannical impulse must we endure (as we are enduring now) before enough is enough and action is taken to restore order? Obama, Axelrod, Jarrett, Holder & Trumka are pulling out all the stops. When does the real pushback start? How much Liberty must be lost before Tyranny is seen for what it is?

Riff Raff| 12.18.12 @ 3:21PM

Apparently, quite a bit. The liars, jackasses, and criminals you mention were just re-elected a few weeks ago by the People. Four more years (minimum) of criminal government, denial of rights, crime sprees, buying votes, destabilized currency, and massive debt. Americans are stupid and they are taking us over the cliff. I do not see a way out.

spoofproof | 12.18.12 @ 4:55PM

Allowing total breakdown of federal bureaucracy would be a good thing. We've got well-built road & water systems. In non-unionized parts of the country, roads, water & power will be maintained unless total civil war breaks out which seems unlikely. The BIGGEST problem is bureaucratic encroachment of federal government. Once the bureaucracy is dramatically downsized things will improve very quickly. Some bureaucracy is necessary but what we've got now is ludicrous. The bureaucracy kills individual initiative.

dominic1955| 12.18.12 @ 1:51PM

The way they propose gun laws is itself evidence of this. Look at all the 'assault weapons' bans-they deal with cosmetic features that make ignorant sheep go into the fetal position and suck their thumbs. Does a semi-auto AK with all the "evil features" really do anything more than a semi-auto AK with one of those stupid thumbhole stocks and the bayonet lug removed?

Even if they say it is piecemeal, and that an outright ban is not possible, then that just shows what kind of underhanded, police state weasels they are.

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 3:06PM

The foundation of “democracy” is emotion thus the Democrat(Marxist) Party panders to emotional issues rather than substance. The Stupid Party counters by offering to manage the emotional issues better…

Al Adab| 12.18.12 @ 3:18PM

You are good today. Better management of the administrative social-welfare state is no program. It is the very legitimacy of that state we must oppose.

Anthony| 12.18.12 @ 2:04PM

Dr. Sowell, You understand the mind of the leftist totalitarian so well. Facts and logic are an anathma to the leftist mindset.
You call it "Invincible Ignorance", truly sir, you're being way to kind. In the face of the incontrovertible facts stated in your wonderful article, we must conclude leftism is a mental disorder.

Bill8472| 12.18.12 @ 2:49PM

If there ever is a debate begun over the issue of crazies going on shooting sprees at schools, you can be sure that there will be awesome hand-wringing over the deprivation of the freedom of the few disturbed who are feared to become dangerous being put under observation before they meet the "dangerous to self or others" standard our Supreme Court has told us is the proper bright line were involuntary commitment for short-term observation becomes OK.

There won't be a moment's concern over gun control laws that deprive or restrict the Second Amendment rights of 150 million or so Americans.

The poor crazies. We mustn't discomfit them for a second, even if they might shoot a bunch of 6-year-olds. Better to take on the law-abiding adults no matter how many hundreds of millions of them there might be. They're law-abiding; they won't complain, and the ACLU won't be interested in gun owners, those Neanderthal fascists.

Bill8472| 12.18.12 @ 2:52PM

Meanwhile the thugs will go on busily accumulating their guns, ignoring the law as they routinely do.

Ronsch| 12.18.12 @ 3:20PM

I am going a little off topic here, but bear with me...While looking at all of the causes (mentally ill seems to top the discussion) I honestly believe that between the removal of G-D from our schools and the removal of The Pledge of Allegiance are equally to blame. Here is why the Pledge tops my list: Even though there have been large shootings (or even murders) in the past (The Texas Tower shooter), I believe that the removal of the Pledge has removed the idea we are "all together Americans" from the equation.

When I recited the Pledge, I remember thinking that no matter what ethnicity, colour or religion, we are all Americans and I would give my life for my fellow Americans. Indeed, that belief guided my enlistment in the military.

Now, with that removed, everyone else is simply a warm body for the most part...unless a subgroup (like a gang is formed), but it still does not link ALL OF US AS AMERICANS, to whom no harm domestically should be brought.

That dismissive idea makes it easier for some lunatic to justify what they do.

And who leads this? The progressives, or as I call them L-S-D (Liberal-Socialist-Democrats), to whom the US is a foreign concept, and loyalty to it nonexistent.

MacWell™| 12.18.12 @ 8:48PM

Not sure if I'm repeating myself here, but, here goes.
We began our school day with a reading from the Bible, (a Psalm or proverb, nothing that could be considered evangelistic.) We had Jews, Catholics, and many Protestant denominations and the reading was voluntary. Then, we ALL stood, hands over hearts, and recited the pledge, NO exceptions. The Principal, office staff and everyone else, stopped and recited the Pledge. After giving HONOR to G_d and country, we were ready to learn. We were taught respect, in fact, we were compelled to show respect to others. My favorite kid's show then was Hoody Dooty. The show was for kids, it showed They had real kids in the audience, they had puppets. They had something else, we would NEVER see on the tube these days. At the end of each show, either Hoody or Buffalo Bob would take a close up and say these words, " Now kids, don't forget Church or Sunday School", the show was on Saturday morning. Most of the kids I knew went to Church every Sunday. We played baseball and dodgeball, and football together, never once was race or ethnicity a criteria of playing with us. America as I knew it, is gone. I've seen it go down hill since that year that we came back to the first day of school and were told that it was against the law to read from the Bible.

Kingofthenet| 12.18.12 @ 4:57PM

Archie Bunker had the solution 30 years ago to subway crime, pass out the pistols at the turnstiles and collect them on exit, poof no subway crime.

Simon Templar| 12.18.12 @ 5:08PM

Archie Bunker was a distorted view of a character in a TV script and television show created by liberals in the entertainment industry to ridicule and mock the working class conservatives and traditionalist of the era. He is not a real person but reflects the biases, distortions, and stereotypes that liberals have of working class people and conservatives.

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 9:22PM

Archie was a Southern Democrat projection on while males in general.

spike59| 12.19.12 @ 5:50AM

shhhhhhh...Queenofthenuts thinks Archie Bunker is a real person; the same type of thinking causes her and her cohorts on the Left to consider Jon Stewart a 'journalist'

Paul Avery| 12.18.12 @ 6:50PM

This article is poorly researched. Australia imposed constraints on gun ownership in 1996 and by all accounts it has worked. Switzerland has a lot of guns, but gun ownership is an essential part of a militia system (no standing army) and ammunition is strictly monitored.

I have a friend who lived in Australia during the time the gun control measure was being debated (in the aftermath of a massacre in which 35 people were killed). She reports that the NRA tried to insert itself into Australian politics to stop gun control measures from being passed.

In the US, we've had successful, decades-long campaigns against smoking and driving under the influence which have had huge effects on behavior. But for some reason straightforwardly addressing our incredible gun-related carnage is off limits. What is lacking in this country is the political will to change the status quo with regard to guns and the open mindedness to see what the rest of the world is doing.

Butch| 12.18.12 @ 7:39PM

There is no written, original, constitutional amendment protecting the right to smoke or drive under the influence. The founding fathers made it quite clear that the right to bear "arms"--not handguns, not hunting rifles--arms--would not be denied as the last defense against a tyrannical government. Now, let me see the best price I can get on an F-16. You could use a good warning strafing.

JD| 12.18.12 @ 8:14PM

Paul Avery,

Your second paragraph makes no point whatsoever about whether something was good or bad; it merely complains that your opponents voiced their position.

Your first paragraph does not support the Austrian claim nor address the correlation-equals-causation fallacy. Your Swiss claim does not support your position in any way.

Your third paragraph attempts to lump gun ownership - a harmless if not beneficial state - together with activities that ARE unquestionably harmful. You do not make the argument that generic gun ownership is bad for people, but that is because, as you say, there is no open-mindedness in this conversation. On your side.

Consistently, your side demands that we accept without debate or question that your idea will work. You demand this acceptance so that you do not have to do what you cannot do - win an argument on merits. You want the starting point for all conversations to be that you are right, and lambast us for being unwilling to converse on such terms. Your arrogance is truly astounding.

spike59| 12.20.12 @ 4:14PM

it's not unlike their insistence on referring to a one-sided lecture as 'the conversation'

spike59| 12.20.12 @ 4:14PM

it's not unlike their insistence on referring to a one-sided lecture as 'the conversation'

UpChuck.Liberals| 12.18.12 @ 9:30PM

Before the ban on guns in the UK, the 15 year death rate was 8642 For the 15 years AFTER it was 11203. Source:http://www.murderuk.com/misc_crime_stats.html

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 9:38PM

“Switzerland has a lot of guns, but gun ownership is an essential part of a militia system (no standing army) and ammunition is strictly monitored.”

Paul what does the above mean in real terms? Let’s deal with the facts about the Swiss having a lot of guns. Switzerland has the population of Virginia and over 500,000 fully automatic rifles in the hands of civilians in their homes. That’s more fully automatic individual weapons than our Army and Marines combined. That is also about 8% of their population which means just about every able bodied adult male suitable for military service has a fully automatic weapon at home. They also have ammo at home thus what does “monitored” mean when just about every adult male has a weapon? Do you know what they do with males who get too old to perform that militia function? They take back those fully automatic ones and give them old obsolete semi-auto ones and ammo. Try running amok in one of their schools and see how many armed civilians with fully auto Siggs show up to deal with the matter.

Paul O'Connell| 12.18.12 @ 7:40PM

Re Thomas Sowell's Invincible Ignorance article. The title should be Culpable Ignorance. Invincible Ignorance means you are ignorant through no fault of your own. Cupable Ignorance means your ignorance is your fault. The left is Cupably Ignorant because they don't use their God-given brains to think.

spike59| 12.20.12 @ 4:12PM

how about "criminal igonorance?'

JD| 12.18.12 @ 8:20PM

For as long as I have discussed politics in my life, I have sought people who might attack my positions, so that I can possibly find my errors and improve my positions. It has been some years now since I have found a person able to do this, which suggests that my positions are reaching the limits of man's ability to improve upon them.

Now I am faced only with straw man arguments. None who actually demonstrate understanding of my positions even TRY to attack them, for understanding consistently results in agreement. The only people who attack me are those who clearly do not understand, often willfully. These are a great many people, but debate with them teaches me nothing other than depression.

JD| 12.18.12 @ 8:26PM

On the issue of gun control, the consistent straw man (in addition to the usual "we're gun nuts who want to see gun violence") is the claim that opponents of gun "control" don't want there to be any government-backed deterrent against gun crimes at all.

Hogwash.

The sole purpose of government according to the intelligent Right is to protect rights, and gun crimes most certainly violate rights. If a person kills or otherwise injures another by ANY means, the Right leads the charge to prosecute, and through prosecution, to deter. In many cases, the Right seeks such deterrence more aggressively than the Left does.

The Left's mistake in debate is to think that those who are NOT deterred by the threat of aggressive prosecution for murder will be hindered by the threat of prosecution for violating a law against possession, despite how much harder it would be to enforce such a law and how much smaller the penalty would be.

The Left doubles-down on this mistake by conflating the weak deterrent against possession with the strong deterrent against misuse in accusing the Right of opposing both deterrents, which is of course a lie. And they know it.

It is true that by some immeasurable (but likely small) degree, gun control laws may make it more difficult for an assailant to get a gun. However, such small victories have proven empirically to fail to overcome the decrease in deterrent that comes from knowing that the law-abiding population is disarmed.

JD| 12.18.12 @ 8:28PM

As a serious question, can anyone think of an instance of a mass shooting that occurred in an area where concealed carry was allowed? Any shootings at all?

I can't see how a person seeking to commit an atrocity would possibly choose such a location when there are places like schools that are packed with potential victims who are small and weak, and the government has promised that there are no guns anywhere nearby!

UpChuck.Liberals| 12.18.12 @ 9:34PM

I believe the answer is ZERO. Those seeking fame, however fleeting from their acts do choose safe, for them, areas to live out their fantasies. An armed society is a polite society.

Thom| 12.18.12 @ 9:54PM

JD,
Can you find any instances of mass shootings by criminals or nutcases at police stations or gun ranges? I exclude military bases because most military bases are just BOQ and benefit distribution centers these days. They are not “military” in the strictest sense of the word as Ft Hood demonstrated. I would think police stations and gun ranges would be idea targets for both given there is plenty of arms and ammo for the taking. As for not finding a worthy debater on the issue, the age of reason is passing away before our eyes… It is all about emotion and what the MOBs want now.

Richard Rider | 12.27.12 @ 7:59PM

While I'm a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, I must admit that there MIGHT be a case for gun control -- if it had been in place since start of the 19th century. MAYBE. (Let's ignore the fundamental reason for the 2nd Amendment -- the protection of citizens against tyrannical government).

But it is downright idiotic to try to impose gun control today -- with criminals in possession of millions of firearms. Yes, MILLIONS.

The bad guys will NOT turn their guns in -- while MOST of the law abiding citizens will.

So TWO problems:

1. Criminals have guns, most folks will not (today there are about 260 million firearms in the U.S.) The increased crime that results has been seen in Britain.

2. Millions of otherwise law abiding citizens will not turn in their weapons, making them felons for sure. Sadly, these "felons" understand the 2nd Amendment -- even if our police and politicians do not. But it's doubtful the courts would enforce the 2nd Amendment in this day and age, should gun confiscation be adopted.

The result will be the expansion of our ever-growing police state -- "for our own good," of course.

Richard Rider | 12.27.12 @ 8:06PM

Here is a "must read" op-ed from the WALL ST JOURNAL on "gun free zones." It includes some facts unknown to most.

For instance, did you know that Utah public school teachers can carry concealed firearms to school? Imagine the carnage! Only problem? There is none. [2012 update -- still zero incidents]

There has never been a SINGLE incident of either a Utah school rogue shooter, a teacher waving the gun around, or a student stealing a teachers piece. Not one!

And did you know that "annually, Americans drive-off home invaders a half-million times, according to a 1997 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention"?

The article concludes with a quote from Thomas Jefferson that hits the bull's-eye:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

---

http://online.wsj.com/article_.....jg2Wj.html

Marc Jeric| 12.27.12 @ 8:54PM

If guns kill people then: pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk, spoons make people fat, matches result in arson, water drowns kids, heights make people fall, and socialism makes everybody rich.

President Obama sends his kids to a school where armed guards are used as a matter of fact. The school, Sidwell Friends School in Washington, DC, has 11 security officers. This is standard operating procedure for the school. And this is the reason people like NBC’s David Gregory, a gun control devotee, send their kids to Sidwell; they know their kids will be protected from the carnage that befell kids at a school where armed guards weren’t used – you know, “gun-free zones”.

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