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What's Still Great
Wal-Mart in the Wilderness
So, here I am at the Ponderay, Idaho Super Wal-Mart. It is beautiful. They've totally redesigned it to be far more wide open, with immense aisles, immaculately clean surfaces, and somehow still a fabulously good selection of items.
Anyone who follows me even a little bit knows I am an extreme fan of Wal-Mart, which basically adds several percentage points of extra income to every worker's pay check by offering such low prices as it does. Plus, the Wal-Mart is a friendly, upbeat shopping experience. You leave the store feeling good.
But I am feeling a bit down about Wal-Mart and a super store it is proposing in an area not far from Orange, Virginia. The problem is that this particular store would be on land that is an important part of the battlefield area of the crucial Battle of the Wilderness. This battle, actually a series of battles, all important, was fought in early May of 1864. It marked the first time that Robert E. Lee and Ulysses Grant had fought each other.
It was a classic of the struggle that would go on between them and their brave armies from then on until Appomattox. Lee showed his characteristic imagination and unorthodox tactics to offset his inferiority in manpower and materiel. Grant, every bit as smart and capable, showed his determination to grind down the Rebels no matter how costly in blood.
The battle was called the Battle of the Wilderness because it was in a densely wooded area with thick, thorny underbrush that made maneuver difficult and lessened Grant's numerical advantage. Interestingly enough, it was only a few miles from where the famous Battle of Chancellorsville was fought one year earlier. It was there that Stonewall Jackson was accidentally shot by his own men in an incident that ended his life and gravely harmed the Confederate cause.
Historians generally consider the Wilderness a Lee tactical victory because the Yankees withdrew from the battlefield. But in fact it was the beginning of the end for Lee and Dixie because while Grant withdrew, he moved his army in position for yet another battle. Grant began the long, murderous process of endlessly drawing a noose around Richmond and Lee's army, a noose that would eventually hang the Confederacy. It has been reported that when the Union troops saw that they were not going back to D.C. to regroup but were moving to keep encircling Lee and keep him engaged, they cheered.
It was a black moment for Lee for another reason. His top general in the East, James Longstreet, was seriously wounded by his own men -- accidentally -- and required convalescence for months. This was a giant loss, especially after the loss of Jackson and other top officers, that Lee could ill afford.
So, all in all, it was a major battle. About 16,000 Union soldiers were killed, wounded, or captured by the Confederates. Maybe 10,000 Confederates were casualties or captured. In a ghastly “twist," after the first night of battle, a number of wounded from both sides were burned to death when sparks ignited the dry brush between enemy lines where they were lying.
Now, you would think that this ground would be sanctified by American blood. And some of it is. About 20 percent of the battlefield is a national park.
But most of it is in private hands. Some of it, some of the most vital of it, has now been slated to be the home of a Wal-Mart Super Store and several other stores possibly drawn there by Wal-Mart. The Wal-Mart would be almost 140,000 square feet, not counting parking. It would be right across the street from the park entrance. It would be visible from much of the battlefield park.
Frankly, I wonder if the nice people in Arkansas who run Wal-Mart have thought this through. This battlefield is incredibly important environmentally and historically and emotionally. It reeks of the blood of men fighting for causes they considered sacred. How can it possibly be that it will be used even in part for a Wal-Mart Super Store? Wal-Mart is a great American institution. I am, as noted, about as devout a fan as there is in the national media. But a store is a store and blood is blood.
There is plenty of other land in the area that is not historically sensitive. There is ample precedent for commerce to be informed by national emotion: Top brass at Walt Disney canceled its plans for an amusement park at or near the Battlefield at Manassas when its attention was drawn to the vital historical nature of the area some years ago.
Wal-Mart has shown that it is flexible on a number of issues lately, including employee health care. Now may be the time to show that Wal-Mart has a heart as well as a calculator. The blood of those men burned to death, shot through and through, some alive but leaving without their limbs, in what is still America's greatest tragedy, cries out for sanctity. I hope they can hear it in Northwest Arkansas.
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Appleby| 7.7.09 @ 6:30AM
What a dilemma for the liberals! Which do they hold in greater contempt -- Wal-Mart or the American fighting man?
Rocco| 7.7.09 @ 6:40AM
I live close by. There is a Walmart in nearby Culpeper, one in Fredericksburg and one in Massaponax. The local residents are perfectly content to drive to any one of the three. There is no need for one at Wilderness. If it happens, it's because the county commissioners are in the pocket of the developer. That's the story about development here in central Virginia - ugly strip malls everywhere, half of them vacant after a year, no REAL planning. It's unsightly and ugly and scars an otherwise beautiful countryside. Typically the developer pays off the county commissioners and it goes up, irrespective of the wishes of the residents. The developer makes his money, the politicos' pockets are filled and the residents are left holding the bag.
The residents don't want it!
Sean| 7.7.09 @ 6:41AM
If it is in private hands how do you propose to compensate the owners for their lose of income and value if they can not develop the land?
Hank Rearden| 7.7.09 @ 7:27AM
The Disney Company faced enormous challenges from the land owners around the area of Haymarket when they proposed their theme park near the battlefield near Manassas. The wealthier the landowner, the more vocal the protest. Actually, very few people of modest means owned any property at all anywhere near the proposed site. Disney has their own fire department, police department, emergency care centers, etc. There would be no requirement for this infrastructure to be provided by local communities. Disney pledged to upgrade and add additional lanes to I-66, the highway running nearly adjacent to the site. The landed gentry stirred up enough stink to cause Disney to withdraw.
Fast forward to today, that same site was sold off to developers sometime later. It nows contains thousands of single family homes, all requiring the localities to provide, fire fighters, police, rescue personal as well as schools, hospitals, etc. Oh and I-66, the lanes are being added over the years except it's tax dollars paying for it now, not Disney. So who won the third battle of Manassas, certainly not the citizens of Haymarket or Prince William County.
Full disclosure here, I am, or at least I was a building contractor. I made an absolute fortune working on those houses. I don't live anywhere near Haymarket so it's no skin off my nose what their politicians did to them. I've always had one question though, why was Disney bad but more urban sprawl good? I still don't get it.
Hank rearden| 7.7.09 @ 7:33AM
I forgot the golf courses. Lots of golf course now. Do y'all have any idea of the environmental requirements for a golf course? Not that big a deal unless your concerned about water tables, fertilizer runoff, and the like. I guess the courses do provide thousands of green jobs, actually maybe dozens of jobs?
WilliamInWien| 7.7.09 @ 8:08AM
ZONING! It is probably the least understood local government process. The meetings and issues are buried in small print in the local newspapers, road signs are placed where if you stopped to read them, you would cause an accident. Yet, the community and its citizens are subject to the Zoning Board decisions. These "hearings" are, for the most part, between the zoning board and the developers and their lawyers. At times, there are as few as two/three taxpaying citizens present. And the meetings are scheduled when most of us are at work. Does anyone know the name of one person on their board? Strangely enough, it was a Canadian citizen and a Civil War history buff who brought me up to speed on the threats to our Civil War heritage. It is not going to stop!
Doug Rogers| 7.7.09 @ 8:11AM
A couple of thing , one the battlefied is not across from the entrance to WalMart. But there is s
aheetz's and Mc donald's across the street. I live one mile for the site and the residents in Orange do want it the Wal mart. We need th bisniness and taxes.
Pingback| 7.7.09 @ 9:25AM
If You Want to Preserve It… | links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Tripp| 7.7.09 @ 9:36AM
I don't presume to correct Mr. Stein, but didn't Wal Mart ask for a bailout?
Bram| 7.7.09 @ 9:51AM
Wal-Mart would be well advised to donate the land to the Federal Park system (if they want it and guarantee to keep it open). They can erect a big sign about the donation and probably write it off on their taxes.
Then, I'll keep shopping at their stores instead of the French-owned place that's closer to home.
Guy William 3| 7.7.09 @ 10:36AM
I am completely devastated about the news of this. I visited the Wilderness, Chancellorsville and Spotsylvania battlefields and was blown away by the size of it. I have been a Civil War historian since I was old enough to read. So in the next few years, I won't be able to bring my children to the same places I have been. Truly sad.
Something I heard before is that building this Walmart on the battlefield is akin to building it on Normandy. How would you feel about that? Perhaps you lost a relative there, perhaps they were wounded. You may feel a twitch of something within that context, but since you probably can't recall anyone in your family who served in the CW, this doesn't affect you.
It should.
If the board decides to go with this plan, ALL OF YOU will be spitting in the face of Freedom.
Go there. Look around. Smell the aroma of the forest. Now picture it being trampled by men and animals. Smell the sulfur. Hear the screams. Watch the fires consume not only the soul, but the men.
Once, you would have been blinded by smoke... now you are blinded by GREED.
WAKE UP!!!!!!
To see more on what the Wilderness was like, watch the movie "Wicked Spring".
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 10:40AM
For the love of God, Honor this ”Cathedral Of Suffering”.
The inability to imbue capitalism with an understanding of what is sacrosanct is imperative. And it can be done because people can choose between the sacred and the profane. Are you starving? No. Will this put a little more money and convenience in your pocket? If yes, so what? Learn to economize and make up that money some other way.
See this is where it’s apparent that we desperately need to remember who we are. Would that there were more like these men and women in the video.
Do you want conservatism to mean something or is it just silly talk, the results of which you’ve never really been able to bring to bear in art or budget or culture? Is it just about money? What a dead thing, then.
In case link doesn’t work: http://tinyurl.com/d2oek6
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 10:42AM
Let’s try this again.
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 10:46AM
The inability to imbue capitalism with an understanding of what is sacrosanct is imperative.
Obviously, that should read ability.
Tim| 7.7.09 @ 10:52AM
It is a shame to see the land go, but if you want to preserve it you have to pay for it. That is a bedrock principle of conservatism. I know that saying this will enrage some, but if this was owl habitat at issue people here would be rushing to defend Wal Mart's property rights.
Rob Nieweg| 7.7.09 @ 11:07AM
Thanks, Mr. Stein, for your excellent article.
The National Trust for Historic Preservation, Civil War Preservation Trust, and our local allies are gravely concerned about Wal-Mart's proposal to build 240,000 square feet of big-box development within the historic boundaries of Wilderness Battlefield and immediately adjacent to the Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania National Military Park.
That's why preservationists are asking Wal-Mart to relocate its proposed Superstore to another site in Orange County but away from the battlefield and National Park. Several alternative sites have been offered to Wal-Mart.
In addition, we have offered to fund a special land-use planning process for this gateway to the National Park in order to envision a better balance of sustainable economic growth and battlefield preservation. Our goal is to protect the battlefield and facilitate compatible economic growth at this nationally significant historic place.
We seek to protect our nation's unique historic places and remain very proud of the American values these irreplaceable places symbolize.
Rob Nieweg
Director, Southern Field Office
National Trust for Historic Preservation
Ruffin| 7.7.09 @ 11:30AM
I'm not sure Ben realizes how massive Wilderness really is. It's not "next to Chancellorsville" or Spotsylvania Courthouse. It's the same roads and woods stretching across two counties. If you rule all these "battlefields" off limits you're blocking off hundreds of square miles. Including the house I grew up in, which was a field hospital during the battle at Spotsylvania Courthouse. Is the kitchen sacred? Can I not watch TV because someone died where the couch is? (FYI - If you ever have a five year old ask you if anyone ever died in his room, "Probably" is not an acceptable answer. Unless your goal is to give him nightmares. Then it's perfect.)
The yankees tried to cross here four times. Only Marye's Heights is what you could call 'compact'. The rest of it is a big, sprawling mess. Are we supposed stop doing anything so Ben can feel good about himself?
L. Ross| 7.7.09 @ 11:59AM
Ruffin:
Nice to see someone thinking with their head here. As someone else said, how do you compensate the property owners if you deny them the ability to develop their property? I have about a half square mile of completely undeveloped land in front of my house. I would be quite miffed if someone began building homes there . . . BUT I DON'T OWN IT!
All these people writing in about how sacred this land is have absolutely no skin in the game. They are not losing money through the inability to develop their land. Nor do I see anyone banding together to purchase that land and "protect" it from development. Seems like we got a bunch of whiney liberal losers here today. First the Michael Jackson posts, now this stuff.
Tim| 7.7.09 @ 12:11PM
I think there's no need to go after Mr. Stein personally. He is only using his pulpit to ask Wal Mart to reconsider. He is not up there asking Obama to Federalize it and staff it with rangers into eternity.
Dean Vander Linde| 7.7.09 @ 12:49PM
If one wants to understand the intensity of the fighting in the Wilderness, there is an exhibit in the Smithsonian that will give you pause. It is a stump of an oak tree that once grew at a place on the Spotsylvania battefield known as the "Bloody Angle." This tree, nearly two feet in diameter, was brought down after being struck by hundreds of rounds of rifle fire. Imagine the soldiers subjected to this hail of lead, and one can understand the need to preserve the battlefield for future generations.
Chris| 7.7.09 @ 12:59PM
I am an american living in Europe....if they preserved every important battle ground(dating back thousands of years) there would be nowhere to build...
Red Phillips| 7.7.09 @ 1:10PM
For the record for all the Lincoln loving "conservatives" here, Ben Stein is a vehement critic of Lincoln and thinks the invasion of the South was unwarranted.
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 1:11PM
It is a shame to see the land go, but if you want to preserve it you have to pay for it. That is a bedrock principle of conservatism.
Nothing wrong with that.
If it's a shame why can't there be a way to work this out?
I'm not advocating for federal strong-arming either. I don't have a dog in the fight, they can do as they please. But I appreciate the efforts of the people who are trying to get Wal-Mart to reconsider.
PeterH| 7.7.09 @ 1:54PM
To add to Hank Rearden's comments, we lived in Centreville while the Disney park process raged. The Disney park was no threat to the Manassas battlefield park, I fact it was be a celebration of American history. The project was also to include a regional mall, housing developments and infrastructure improvements. All this improvement was not to be funded by the taxpayer. However, being cited north of the park it intruded into what is called the "hunt country", where many of the D.C. and Virginia elite maintain their equestrian estates and wineries.
It is important to understand the economic landscape of the area. When you drive west from D.C. you encounter Arlington, Fairfax, and Prince William counties. Arlington and Fairfax derive enormous tax revenue from government-related activities, be they real estate or contract related. Not so in Prince William county. It is typically referred to the blue collar county, where all the trades go east to earn a living. So, the Disney park represented a great boost in county income.
Disney passed every zoning gateway. We in Centreville hoped the park would create the need to extend the metro train past Vienna. Unfortunately all was in vain. The “preservationists” surfaced in droves decrying the loss of “sacred” ground. Interesting that, despite Centreville being a major zone of operations in both Manassas battles, there were no objections to its development.
Eventually, despite having been approved at every level, we learned that one non-negotiable point was that every Disney park ended the day with fireworks. This sent the gentry into high gear and resulting in numerous groups declaring that they would keep Disney in court “for decades”.
The result? Disney abandoned the project. The local paper quoted a Disney source that “a long list of communities [outside Virginia] have lined up to support the park, why should we fight this out in court for years?”
So despite no threat to the Manassas battlefield, a major county tax revenue source, as well as perhaps thousands of jobs, were eliminated due to personal and political interest and not due to the encroachment/development of civil war battlefield land.
Joe| 7.7.09 @ 2:30PM
Liberals loathe History and worship Science,If i were president Id repel any and all modernization of any battlefields in the US.
Roy| 7.7.09 @ 2:39PM
What's there now? Is there anything besides a Walmart there, or planned to be there?
JP| 7.7.09 @ 3:34PM
One of the big reasons that Virginia (esp Northern Virginia) is such a high growth area is the steady increase in the size of the federal government. Even in this time of recession, the federal government still offers a whole host of job oppurtunities.
I really do feel sorry for those Virginians who watch the suburban sprawl of the Beltway expand south and west. Wal Mart is only responding to business oppurtunities. I saw the same thing happen to the once pristine pasture and farmlands that sat 50 miles outside of Chicago. Beginning in the 1980s, Chicago quickly expanded. Now when someone talks about the far west 'burbs, they are referring to subdivisions half way to Iowa.
But the Beltway is different. The continued expansion of the federal government, which is subsidized by taxpayers money, makes this growth a reality. Besides all of those regulators, lawyers, and bureaucrats must have a place to live, eat, and shop. If we want the sprawl to end, limit the size of the government -that, or relocate the capital to some other place that has room to spare (ex, Livingston Wyoming).
Doug Welty| 7.7.09 @ 3:59PM
Well, it's time for the Civil War buffs and historical preservationists to get together, put their money in the pot, and persuade Wal-Mart to sell them its rights. At that point, as the new owners, they may do as they please.
Erica Brigid| 7.7.09 @ 4:14PM
Remember that Hillary Clinton still sits on the board of WalMart. And what Lady MacBeth of Little Rock wants, Lady MacBeth of Little Rock gets.
I have been boycotting WalMart since the day I walked into one. I can't stand big stores. Where I live I drive twelve miles out of my way to shop at family-owned grocery and hardware/general stores simply because I enjoy being able to chat with the owners about our children, our cats, the weather, etc. One can't do that at Hillary's Big Store.
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 5:18PM
In Orange County, unemployment was 3.9 in ’08. It’s now at 7.5.
The village I grew up in is the County Seat. 60% of the County is on some form of social service. The village agreed to a new Wal-Mart and it did provide tax revenue for the County and jobs. But things are still pretty dismal. It’s sad to see.
And as one poster pointed out, when you don’t have skin in the game it’s easy to offer an opinion. Everyone wants to be comfortable.
We successfully fought a battle over a land-fill initiative that would have brought trucks from all over the State dumping their trash in our back yard. It was a long drawn-out fight, but we won.
Pete Franks| 7.7.09 @ 5:50PM
I am a Zoning Board of Adjustment member for a small rural county in southwest Iowa, not far from Omaha, NE. I am also an architect and a preservationist/historian. I have been following this issue for some time. As with most zoning-related controversies there are two sides to the story.
I believe Orange County's Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Ordinance both call for this land (it is privately held) to be commercially developed. If I am not mistaken the proposal on the table at the moment is being developed by a private developer who would, in turn, bring WalMart (and other retailers) into their development.
If folks have a problem with this property being developed their issue should not be with WalMart but with the County (for history-insensitive planning decisions) and, to a lesser degree, the developer (who is seeking to develop the land with a larger and somewhat more intensive use than the County intended).
Quartermaster| 7.7.09 @ 6:11PM
It would be nice if Stein didn't lard his article with nonsense about Grant's military smarts. He won because he had the warm bodies to bury Lee, and he was willing to pile up the bodies in frontal assaults. In short he committed tactical murder. The man wasn't much of a General.
Other than that, Stein has his opinion, but no dog in the fight.
F. Bueler| 7.7.09 @ 6:47PM
I actually live in the Wilderness, about a mile from Lee's HQ. Pete Franks is correct this land has been zoned commercial since the 70s. Orange County planned for growth to be funnelled down Route 3 (Plank Road during the Civil War) in order to preserve the rural nature of the county. There is already significant development through out the Battlefield, including a Ben Stein affordable sub division with an Arnold Palmer designed golf course. The area Wal-Mart plans to build on already has strip malls, a used car lot, a McDonalds, a huge and garish Sheetz gas station, a 7/11 etc. All of this development will be between the Wal-Mart and the battlefield.
Mary| 7.7.09 @ 6:57PM
If folks have a problem with this property being developed their issue should not be with WalMart but with the County (for history-insensitive planning decisions)
Exactly! The landfill initiative that I referred to in my earlier post was something that would have greased a few pockets without a thought for anything else.
We were lucky we had some very dogged and intelligent people on our side. I don't know their politics, but my guess would be liberal. They were looking out for the town-folk who would have to put up with the effects of the landfill.
I can't remember the last time we had a smart mayor. Sometimes I really want to run. I could do no worse than those who served these last 3 decades. I'd like to see small businesses come back. I'd like some manufacturing jobs come back our way.
I live in a nearby City now, and about a decade ago I lived right across from a manufacturing firm that has a facade that looks like the Versailles. It's my understanding that that's the work of the founder's daughter.
Alan Brooks| 7.7.09 @ 9:05PM
you think America is more than business, but it isn't; the business of America is business-- forever.
get used to it.
Sherri| 7.7.09 @ 9:24PM
I used to work for Walmart. The people who run Walmart don't care about anything or anybody but more profits. I left because of how badly they treated their employees.
Matthew Vadum| 7.7.09 @ 10:33PM
This kind of preservation fetishism makes me want to throw up. Shame on you, Ben Stein.
Gerry723| 7.7.09 @ 11:31PM
We wouldn't want to crimp the style of landowners in the area. Hey maybe they should buy cemetaries in the area and develop those. Why not? After all business is business.
Tim| 7.8.09 @ 8:42AM
I think we can all agree that the last thing we want is for the actual residents to have a say in how their home state is developed and governed.
After all, isn't that what the war was all about?
Andrea| 7.8.09 @ 9:29AM
I could write, as others have done, about the improtance of preserving our historic heritage; about the fact that the land belongs to our descendants, not to us; that we have no more right to permit development on this sacred ground than to allow the construction of Jiffy-Lubes and McDonald's restaurants on the lip of the Grand Canyon. Instead, let me appeal to the practical:
We should bear in mind that tourism is an extremely important economic engine for Virginia. It's a clean industry that doesn't demand new roads, schools, jailhouses, or other public works. Tourists come here, look around, and leave their dollars here. But they won't come and they won't leave money if they see nothing but development. They come to Virginia from all over the US and from all over the world to look at historic sites, not to look at yet another Walmart. If money is your sole consideration, then consider that in the long run, maximal tax revenue is likely to be generated not by any commercial enterprise but by leaving the land intact for tourists to gaze at.
The National Trust is holding out a hand. There are alternatives that will get money into the hands of the land's owners -and- keep the land open.
For those who are concerned about the property rights of the land's owners, let me remind you that land is an investment. Nothing in our Constitution says that government must guarantee a profit on an investment, only that there should not be an uncompensated taking. If the landowners are fairly compensated for their land at today's abysmal market rates, that is enough.
Craig| 7.8.09 @ 7:56PM
I only have one thing to say on this...think before you move. I live in upstate NY, I wish I lived down
there. Appreciate, and care for these national
treasures...lest we forget these hallowed grounds!
Brian| 7.8.09 @ 8:33PM
Now I haven't taken the time to read through everyone's opinions, so I apologize if this is already covered. But, if I am not mistaken, there is a wal mart not 10 miles from the Wilderness/Chancellorsville Battlefield. Seriously (I already know the as to this is yes), but are we (Americans) so lazy that they do not want to drive an extra 10 minutes to get there. The key word being DRIVE, it is not like they have to walk an extra 10 miles to get there. It is a sad day when Wal Mart builds this new center. I am glad they care about thousands of men who died during the Civil War and not to mention those who fought and died in the Revolutionary War so much that they would rather over turn their graves for a company that already has a store in the area and not to mention stores within a 15 mile radius North and South of that one.
Richard Baker| 7.9.09 @ 10:24AM
If Ben has no dog in the fight, then only those in the immediate political jurisdiction should have anything to say. Let's develop the Mall in Washington or Yosemite. After all, it would only take a mere Act of Congress to make it so. The owners, the taxpayers, could be reimbursed by another Act of Congress for the loss of use. Such a deal. The taxes on the development could be the means of funding. Talk about a win-win situation.
Draco| 7.9.09 @ 12:57PM
Wal-Mart is the most Fined, Sued, Obusive, dirty, smelly(stores)&Etc;. company in the world. They force some companies that have made items in this county for years to ship there factories over seas. Wow great "patriotic"(HEAVY SARCASIM) company they are. By the way Orange county "supervisors" are heavely going to vote for this abomination. Wal-Mart has sure payed them off enough. The upcoming vote is mearly a formality, they as I stated don't give a squat about the soldiers that died there, all they see are MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!MONEY!!!
One last thing to the individuals crying about driving 10-15 miles, PLEASE STOP BEING SO LAZY AND GROW UP!!!!!!
Greg Parkes| 7.9.09 @ 7:08PM
I have read every comment and concur with nearly everyone of them. Yes, if you made every battlefield in the east and Europe, you would be limited on the amount of land that would actually be available for development. And yes, corporate greed is seizing on every ounce of cash that we have by saturating markets with stores. In the neighborhood where I live, there are four Walmart's within a 10 minute commute. How much is too much? There were three starbucks within 1 mile of my house.
The battlefields in which we are talking about are not in some forgotten land, they are in the backyard of our nation's capitol. This war, many do not understand, was to be the definition of what our country was to become. The Civil War determined freedoms that we enjoy today, directly causing admendments to our constitution to confirm our belief that everyone, regardless of their differences, has the right to the same freedoms.
Now as a former soldier, I can attest that sometimes you don't alway know why you fight, and the memory of such service becomes amplified into romantic and patriotic notions. Even with that in mind, more people gave their lives to keep this a united nation, and determine our nations destiny. Over 600,000 lives were lost. To me that number is really incomprehendable. Most large cities in this nation do not have that size of a population and yet they laid down their lives to protect our freedoms.
It was submitted that someone, probably the government at some level, should pay if they don't want the lands developed. The reason that the battlefields were not captured as public lands in whole was because all of these lands were farms and field, forests and swamps, and without the foresight that we have looking from the 21st century back, who could have thought that our population would grow like it has. Who would have thought that the city surrounding Washington D.C. would spread and almost be connected without a rural streatch all the way to New York City? So when parks were developed, the lands that were aquired were those that the primary focus. What better way to experience the park, remember the fallen, and experience history than to look across the battlefield that was farmland, and see a farm. Believe it or not, our government is not a business, nor are they out to be a farm. So why would the government pull into a park farmland just to let it sit and be useless.
I am not trying to offer a suggestion, other than to say, perhaps the right thing to do by Walmart is to donate the land to the National Parks Service, take the tax right-off, and build somewhere else.
To the person that owns the home that once was a hospital during the war, I am jealous. Take care of the historic treasure that you own. If it were up to the Native Americans, no one would own the land, and perhaps that is what was intended.
Again to the market saturation, how many is too many? I Googled this question and found out that (according to walmart.com and sams.com) Wal-mart has 883 discount stores, 2,630 Supercenters, 594 Sam's Clubs, and 150 Neighborhood Markets. Subtracting out the Sam's Clubs and Neighborhood Markets that means that there is 3513 retail stores nation wide. That is a couple stores, and they are the number one retailer in the world! I get wanting to stay on top, but sometimes the national good is important as well.
My concluding comment isn't for the local governments that have the decision to make whether or not Wal-mart should come to town. My comment is for Wal-mart do do the right thing, and donate the land to the National Parks Service. Show how truly American your roots are imbedded into the soil where soldiers died protecting the rights that we enjoy.
Pingback| 7.9.09 @ 9:34PM
LandVoices : Battle of the Wilderness: Wal-Mart vs. a battlefield links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Heel55| 7.11.09 @ 1:47PM
There is a compromise that both the preservationist groups and a landowner agree on. There is 900 acres to the west of the proposed site that would be perfect and the Civil war groups are in favor of. However, the Board of Supervisors seem intent on ignoring the option due to personal conflicts, instead of doing what is right for the county.
Orange County Resident/voter| 7.12.09 @ 1:13PM
I live VERY close to the proposed Wal-Mart site. I pay taxes in Orange County, VA. I am in favor or anyone who wants to sell their land to the preservationist groups. I sold 91 acres in NC to preserve it. That said...I am all for the Wal-Mart. This site IS NOT across the street from the battlefield...it is 1/2 mile down Rte 20 and across Rte 3...behind a 7-11! There are a couple of small strip malls, a large Sheetz and a McDonalds BETWEEN the battle field area and the proposed Wal-Mart site! There is a large area that HAS been preserved and dedicated to heroics at Wilderness. One poster was right...I live on land where the battle of Mine Run was fought...my fence wanders along an old trench...should I move? I would gladly sell my property to any group that would pay me fair market value for my house. It would make a great small museum. In this economy I am sure many would do the same. Should the residents in Lake of the Woods (about 15k) move and donate their homes...they live IN the battlefield area?
One other poster was correct...if you don't live here...don't try to tell us how to live and where to shop. The nearest Wal-mart is either in Culpeper (about 18 miles) or Fredericksburg (about 15 miles)...it's not the drive but where I am spending my money and who is benefiting...I would much rather my tax money come back into MY community than to support the other two counties! As for the drive...aren't we supposed to be "stopping Global Warming" by not driving so much? How about saving gas...isn't that politically correct?
Mr. Stein, it's not about respect for history and preserving reminders of such...it's about free enterprise and fairness. This property if in the battlefield area is on the VERY edge. There have already been others who have pierced the area and are a lot closer. If we preserved EVERY inch of battlefield area in VA...there would be little or no where left to live.
This county is famous for running off all types of businesses and is suffering because of it. Wal-Mart will provide jobs and revenue for the county.
If you don't live here PLEASE BUTT OUT!
Draco| 7.13.09 @ 10:55AM
Balony, it is across the street. To above poster, here is a hint look at the actual map not the WAL-MART approved map. It is directly across the street. Even VA Govvernment has stated as such. To your snide commit about global warming cutting down the trees there are more damaging. Thanks to companies like Wal-Mart the Wilderness will one day just be in name only and the park. No one is saying don't build it, just build it closer to lake in the woods, away from the battlefield. Oh, you do realize that the "jobs" Wal-Mart "provides" the workers are still on some kind of welfare don't you. Wow, some company to even be associated with right? Not to mention they also do their darndest to force employees to vote the way that wal-mart wants.To the issue, it is laziness and nothing else. But, don't worry the county board has already been sucessfully bought off and you will have your precouse wal-mart while the surrounding open land continues to slowly become something you only read about in a history book.
One last thing you do know WAL-MART LIES!!!!!! They promised to keep the store near Washington's birthplace small and whoops promise, what promise we had our fingures crossed you fools.HA,HA,HA...Losers! Thats what the people in that area will be. Move out for quiet and oops we what everything to be built a block away we don't want to drive, were lazy.
Greg Parkes| 7.14.09 @ 11:26PM
BUTT OUT? I may not live in Orange County, but I too am a voter. For someone with such an opinion to state they are a voter, I am shocked that you can not see that each of us are voter. We are each voters because we care enough to post our opinion on a subject that has implications that we feel impact us.
I also note your tone against those who have given the ultimate sacrifice to their country. As I indicated in my previous post, and I state to you now, I am jealose in what you own. If you own part of a battlefield, treasure it. But from your own words, I surmise that what ever may be, as long as someone pays.
Butt out, I suppose that if you were in need, you would be no different than most, asking for help. Don't get upset by this, it is human nature, that when you are down, to ask for aid and comfort. Here's the wake up call. Some of us American, no, not only Americans, just some of us, want to preserve and cherish what was given to us. Yes, the ability to post your thoughts on a blog came at a price. That price was the blood of every American service member that died, was injured, and even just sacrificed their time to hold the values of freedom, fighting to keep our way of life... free!
That cost has allowed you your opinion! That cost has also allowed me my opinion and everyone else theirs. What upsets me about your whole post, is the fact that no one else is able to have an opinion other than yourself.
Orange CountResident/voter| 7.16.09 @ 5:19PM
Draco & Greg Parkes,
While you are completely welcome to your opinion...if you don't live here...I feel that you don't have much of a dog in this hunt.
Draco, you need to come here and LOOK at the area. I don't need to look at a map...I am sitting about 1/4 mile from the south border of the battlefield! I don't NEED to look at anyone's map...I go near or through the area almost daily. So I think I may be a little more familiar with the area.
To you both, you know NOTHING about me or my family or our military heritage or connections. I have the utmost respect and admiration for anyone who serves in the military. I totally agree that tributes need to be made and honor shown but the preserved area for this battlefield is rather large right now. As for my house...I didn't subdivide the land, I didn't build the house...so until I moved there I only knew a little of the history.
I don't hear either of you or anyone else complaining about the Sheetz, McDonalds, Sub Way, 7-11, State Liquor store and two small strip malls that are BETWEEN the Wal-Mart Site and the closest part of the battlefield (Elwood) which is still about 1/4 mile PAST the land that has been preserved. I don't hear you complaining about the HUGE development, Lake of the Woods, which is ON battlefield property. LOW has been there for YEARS, some of the other stores and strip malls have been in their locations since I moved here in 1992! I didn't hear any of you screaming about any of that? If this battlefield is so important to you...where were you then. I suggest that if you are so concerned about Civil War History...that you demand that the schools state actually TEACHING about what is probably one of the most important events in this countrys history. Check out your local text books...you may be shocked.
Check out this map http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?wip=2&v=2&rtp;=~&FORM=MSNNAV#JnE9eXAucmhvYWRlc3ZpbGxlJTJjK3ZhJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTM3LjU3NzA5OTc0Mzg1MjglN2UtNzcuNDc5ODc3NDcxOTIzOCU3ZTM3LjUxOTgwMTc3MTMyNTklN2UtNzcuNTg4NzEwNzg0OTEyMQ== link...the Wal-Mart will be located ACROSS Rte 3 over the word "Wilderness"; the main part of the exibit is located over the words "Wilderness National Military Park. Much of the shaded area shown has houses on it (along Rte 20). The area under/above the number 720 is where the Sheetz, McDonalds etc are located. Across Rte three at the intersection is a 7-11 and another small strip mall and a Wachovia Bank. Would it make you happy if I took photos and sent them to you?
The point that one poster made that we could easily and happily DRIVE to the nearest WalMart doesn't make sense to a tax payer in this county...why should I spend money in another county and support them when I can be helping the country where I live, own property etc that desperately needs it? We have laid off teachers, the library is having to cut hours, our trash pick up areas are having to close. The other two counties Culpeper and Spotsylvania have tons of money from the businesses located there. We have little.
Preserving battlefields and paying tribute to fallen soldiers who have died to make this country free is a wonderful thing and we should do all we can to keep that up but this area in question has been designated for development since the 1070's it is on a main highway and near 60% of the population of this county. If you check out the map on Bing and scan eastward you will see that there is tons of other areas around here that have been preserved as well as in Fredericksburg and the Richmond area. If you want to get upset...check out all the housing that has been build on the areas in South Stafford County...
My whole point is that most of you are working from "controlled info" and you assume (remember what that does for you) that Wal-Mart is the bad guys...just maybe in this situation they are not!
As for the Wal-Mart at Ferry Farm (east of Fredericksburg) it is about 2 miles for Washington's home...but there is a shopping center and a McDonalds and a 7-11 DIRECTLY across the street from the property and entrance (I have friends in that area so I also pass it often) ...don't hear you complaining about that. I guess you two and others just want to nip at the heals of the big dog...? Hope to see all of you who oppose this store at the County Board meeting!
Greg Parkes| 7.18.09 @ 10:49AM
You make good points about getting schools to study the American Civil War. I am actually appauled by what I believe to be essential information that should be taught in school and it completely avoided. But I also believe that we avoid the subject of war. (Read this article: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_military_history.html)
But I digress, the issues at hand for me it to tell another American to "Butt Out" when it is in the common interests to discuss such things. Oh, you will probably get your Walmart, but my points were about market saturation, and how many does any one corporation need to over saturate an area.
To your credit, I understand your point about taxes going to another county. I have problems when the only option is to go to another jurisdiction, pay taxes, and yet have no voice in how those taxes are spent. I can fully appreciate your standpoint on this issue. However, I believe it was pointed out this is not the only place to build the Wal-Mart.
I believe I would not have responded again, having stated my opinion, had you not said, "BUTT OUT." It is a common thing today for people to say this when they feel oposition to their point of view. You are quite frankly wrong. These are the founding principles of this country, to have open speech, to have open debate about subjects and then to decide. I may not have a vote in the debate, but I am entitled to the right to voice my opinion. Or are you also oposed to this? Bring out the stormtroopers and the gestapo. Bring out the secret police because this is the mentality that is turning the country upside down right now.
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Draco| 7.27.09 @ 12:21PM
Sorry Orange county resident but you are extremily wrong when it comes to the lake of the woods area. IT IS WELL OUTSIDE ANY BATTLE ACTION. WHERE THE WAL-MART (since orange county supervisors have been bought out by wal-mart) IS TO GO IN SITS ON MAJOR BATTLE ACTION. You are systematic of the arrogant, ingnorant individuals that want despertly to move to the country and then whine and complaign that the convinces are not right next door. Well congratulations, you will get this disaster to not only the american economy but the distruction of the wilderness and those that died there. Outside the battlefield the Wilderness will be in name only. Cause your so called county supervisors have all ready been with great succes been bought out by wal-mart and tonights vote is only a minor tecnocality. Now you won't have to drive all those many 12-15 mile, poor babies, wa. YOU ARE STILL VERY LAZY.
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madmilker| 8.2.09 @ 1:47PM
People in America need to realize jus what got America in this shape…”cheap” yes so-call cheap items from a foreign land.
quote*Wal-Mart firmly believes in local procurement. We recognize that by purchasing quality products, we can generate more job opportunities, support local manufacturing and boost economic development. Over 95% of the merchandise in our stores in China is sourced locally. We have established partnerships with nearly 20,000 suppliers in China. *end quote!
Now! if there be 182 country’s making items for the world to buy and they have only 5% of the pie in China…duh! This company makes the nice people of China support their currency(yuan) by keeping it in their country working for the people there…. but with the “yuan” going up in value and the US dollar going down…all the foreign items that the American consumer buys thinking it is cheap has went up in price.
People…its all about the currency and to keep a currency strong you got to keep it floating around the country you live in so it can work for you. For the past 12 years all them US dollars are being shipped overseas to a foreign bank and with the American worker not making anything for the foreigner to buy the “we the people” have to turn to the “second” largest employer in America(Uncle Sam) to sell “we the people” debt in order to get all them dollars back!
50 years ago a foreigner would had given their left nut for a US dollar or a Hershey’s chocolate bar and today the same foreigner has got Uncle Sam and the American consumer by both all the while Hershey is moving the chocolate factory to Mexico. Wake up! America and think “MADE IN AMERICA.”
quote*”Considering that there are over 30,000 ships at sea this morning,” writes James Carlton, director of the Williams College-Mystic Seaport Maritime Studies Program, in an e-mail, “the total number of organisms and species in this global ‘bioflow’ on the morning your readers read your piece could be staggering - billions of individuals, and thousands of species.”
Indeed, scientists have long considered ballast water the primary way invasive aquatic organisms are introduced. From the zebra mussel’s arrival in the Great Lakes, to an American jellyfish severely disrupting Black Sea fisheries, the potential costs of accidental introduction of a species to new homes can be tremendous. Aquatic invasives cost the US $9 billion yearly, according to estimates by David Pimentel, professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y. Zebra and quagga mussels (a cousin to the zebra) alone cost the $1 billion annually.*end quote!
tat is $9 billion a year in hidden taxes to all Americans…
cheap ain’t chic and it cost America…………jobs!
“Now let us look at Wal-Mart again; you buy a product there, 6% goes to the employees, 10-18% is profit to the company, 25% goes to other costs and 50% goes to re-stock or the cost of goods sold. Of the 50% about 20-25% goes to China, a guess, but you get the point. Now then, how long will it take at 433 Billion dollars at year for China to have all of our money, leaving no money flow for us to circulate? At a 17 Trillion dollar economy less than 40-years minus the 1/6 they buy from us. Some say that if we keep putting money into our economy, it would take forever, but if we do not then eventually all the money flow will go. If China buys our debt then eventually they own us, no need to worry about a war, they are buying America, due in part to our own mismanaged trade, so whose fault is that? Not necessarily China, as they are doing what’s in the best interests, and we should make sure that trade is not only free, but fair too.”
http://www.worldthinktank.net/pdfs/TheFlowofTrade.pdf
and when it comes to all them ther turnips in D. C. ….they all need to red…oops! read George Washington’s farewell address after only eight years of serving his country…
Retail makes nothing! ….and until the American people get off their lazy @ss and start to demand…”made in America”….all the retail jobs will be sitting in a foreign land.
The dang government makes only debt…like all it knows is spend…spend…spend. The turnips ain’t never past a dang “saving” bill. They go up on tat big hill and play banker with my dang tax dollars and every dang one of them is one sandwich short of a picnic when it comes to balancing their dang check book.
National Debt from 1776 to 1910 wus only $2.6 billion and tat wus without a income tax. After the stiff-shirt “my sh!! don’t stink” bankers met in 1910 at Jekyll Island tat debt wus put in high gear in 1913 and even with a income tax and now a tax for every dang thig a person touches…even the air he/she breaths tat debt has mushroom to over $10 trillion in 2008.
Now….we the people in the past 7 months has taken on another $1 trillion and tat person in tat big white house is saying the car is going to slow…well…maybe he needs to get out of the dang thig and walk.
http://dailybail.com/home/the-national-debt-road-trip-video-warning-not-for-the-faint.html?
And with America being over $57 trillion in debt….a little walking wouldn’t hurt them either. People….it ain’t no place in the Constitution tat states the government is suppose to take care of you….not one dang sentence. The word “cheap” ain’t no place to be found either. If you don’t buy American made…you don’t have jobs cause RETAIL makes nothing.
Quit thinking in terms of a jack@ss and elephant….they the ones tat put US in tis mess….think in terms of character, faith in God, love of Country, your State, your town, your family and your dang job. Spend a month…maybe two red…oops! reading Michael Hodges “Grandfather Economic Report” series and learn how the people in government has pull the wool over the eyes of “we the people” for the past 96 years.
“Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.” - John Quincy Adams, 6th President of USA.
“I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.” - Thomas Jefferson
“No generation has a right to contract debts greater than can be paid off during the course of its own existence.” - George Washington to James Madison 1789.
“support your town…shop around.” - madmilker
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Draco| 8.25.09 @ 9:23AM
Congratualations, your Orange county supervisors have been sucessfully payed off to build that embarresment. May your ancestors and desendents forgive you for your idiotcy
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Thomas Beach| 9.19.09 @ 10:43AM
The question posed regarding compensation to such landowners is a fair one. That said, I would ask you this. If you purchase land, develop it and build businesses on the coast of Louisiana, isn't that done with the expectation of possible problems including financial loss at some point in the future?
If you choose to purchase land which abuts National Park property and historic sites such as The Wilderness, it is my opinion that you do so with the full knowledge of a similar risk. The developer and Wal-Mart were certainly aware of such potential problems from the moment they moved forward on the land deal.
To my knowledge there has never been an offer by the original land owner to sell the property to either the NPS or the CWPT. If there was such an offer, I would welcome hearing about it. So the idea that a land owner is being unfairly treated is specious in my opinion.
Not everything in this country is subject to being sacrificed on the alter of the almighty dollar. Wal-Mart Corp. is displaying nothing more than greed in this matter. As previously cited, they have numerous other stores within a twenty mile radius. Additionally, conspicuously absent from the supporters of the Wal-Mart construction is the fact that an alternate site has been proporsed within two miles of the current location. For those lazy patrons who decry the notion of having to drive an extra mile or two, I ask: What did you do before Wal-Mart? Perhaps you shopped at the closer, local mom-and-pop store which will now have to close because of the buying power of a Wal-Mart. In as much as I completely support the free-market principles which results in the destruction of these small stores throughout America, and Wal-Mart's right to do so, I can't help but think of the casual selfishness of these supporters. Both in the shrugs they offer to the lost jobs and life-altering footprint of Wal-Mart set upon and welcomed openly by their own communities as well as the willingness to put their own self-interests and gratification ahead of a nations history. To them and the Orange County Board of Supervisors, money and convenience trumps all else.
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