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Among the Intellectualoids
A Real “Economic” Recovery
A member of President Obama’s religious left explains.
Do you remember how President George W. Bush was sustained in power by mindless Religious Right evangelicals, who zealously supported Bush’s wars because they knew he shared their not so secret theocratic dreams? Supposedly Bush would signal his solidarity and ignite these purported bumpkins by lacing his speeches with code words from Scripture or hymns.
President Obama’s own Religious Left constituency is now flaking for their man. Of course, advocating their religious agenda (Global Warming, larger welfare state, disarmament and subordination to the United Nations, multiculturalism) is not theocratic, but timeless and universal pleas for justice and global harmony.
“Emerging” church maestro Brian McLaren, who is a columnist for Jim Wallis’s Sojourners, has been a leading cheerleader for Obama among liberal evangelicals. (“Emergent” evangelicals emphasize post-modernity and stress community over doctrine.) McLaren and other Evangelical Left organizers celebrate that strong majority evangelical support for John McCain last year fell somewhat from the historic tide for Bush, back down to more traditional Bob Dole levels. Supposedly evangelicals will increasingly abandon their concerns about marriage and sanctity of life in favor of climate activism and harnessing CIA interrogators. The Evangelical Left perspective is not populist, like the Religious Right. It primarily represents the elite voice of disenchanted evangelical academics and their student followers, plus some religious urban hipsters and their suburban wannabes, all desperately anxious to shed “Inherit the Wind” stereotypes.
McLaren’s own brand of post-modern emergent Christianity is therapeutic and post-theological, hoping to end the culture wars though a series of dialogues in coffee houses and meditation rooms. In his latest column, McLaren excoriates hopes for a traditional economic recovery, based on materialistic expectations. Specifically, he was irked by an MSNBC Pat Buchanan comment about Obama’s recent Indiana town hall, with Buchanan sardonically noting that Elkhart, Indiana produces RV’s, and Obama didn’t explain how to revive the RV market.
Naturally McLaren was horrified at the prospect of a resurgent America gunning gas gulping RV’s across the nation’s interstates, accelerating glacier melt, panicking the polar bears, and doubtless drowning many South Pacific islanders. That’s not the kind of recovery we want! “For many people, economic recovery means ‘getting back to where we were a few months or years ago,’” McLaren sermonized. “That means recovering our consumptive, greedy, unrestrained, undisciplined, irresponsible, and ecologically and socially unsustainable way of life.”
McLaren may hope for a new world, or really just a re-creation of the old, pre-industrial world, where humanity abandons modernity and returns to the forest hut and the tundra igloo, subsisting on berries and ferns, living shorter life spans less destructive to The Planet. He suggested a different kind of “recovery” that would not include RV’s roaring out of Elkhart, but a “wiser way of life” that recalls the “experience of addiction.” Capitalism’s beneficiaries, like drug addicts, first must address the root cause of their avaricious consumerism: “unresolved pain or anger, the need to anesthetize painful emotions, lack of creativity in finding ways to feel happy and alive, unaddressed relational and spiritual deficits, [and] lack of self-awareness.”
A true “recovery” would rescue and not restore consumerist addicts to their destructive habits, McLaren insisted. Firstly, of course, that means kicking our “addiction to carbon,” whose fossil fuels, like a “cultural amphetamine,” give us “speed” and “quick energy” while they “toxify” the environment and unbalance the ecosystem. But carbon is not modernity’s only addiction.
There is “addiction to weapons,” which are among the “most addictive substances possible.” Like barbiturates, weapons generate a false sense of “well-being and security, removing our feeling of fear and anxiety,” while also making us “lazy and slow in the much more important work of relationship-building, justice, and peace-making, lazy in seeking the common good.” And barbiturate-like weapons fuel an “addictive cycle’ around the world, as increasing numbers seek the same drug induced reassurance.
Another addiction, according to McLaren’s pharmaceutical analysis, is the “hallucinogenic stimulant of fear,” which [conservative] religious and political leaders foment for dollars and votes. The targets are predictable: “By making straights afraid of gays, conservatives afraid of progressives, Christians and Jews afraid of Muslims, citizens afraid of immigrants, and vice versa, these leaders get a quick organizational high — crack for their unity and morale.” McLaren lamented that fear-crazed conservatives often slip from stimulation, to paranoia, to paralysis. Evidently the Religious Left, during the Bush years, never resorted to fear or paranoia, so far as McLaren recalled.
McLaren is also concerned about addictions to “stuff.” After all, “an economy that measures growth by the number of durable goods (resources) extracted from the environment and turned into non-durable goods that are bought, used, and then thrown away into a landfill,” is constantly “turning goods into trash” and pretending this destructive cycle is “success.” McLaren wants to move beyond “an extractive, consumptive economy” to a “sustainable” and “regenerative” economy, not dependent on “destroying the planet and exploiting people addictively.”
It is true that Christians traditionally warn against inordinate attachment to “stuff,” since their ultimate loyalty is to Heaven. But in their pursuit of Heaven, Christians are also called to provide “stuff” to the needy. Several billion people will never escape chronic poverty, illness, and early death until they too can “extract” durable goods from the planet, much of whose refuse will end in a landfill. According to the teaching of Christians, the earth is not itself an object of veneration, but was created to serve the needs of humanity. Living “sustainably” for McLaren’s suburban followers may in their minds just mean recycling and driving a Prius. But for much of the impoverished world, it threatens a permanent absence of hope for them and all future generations.
McLaren is hoping to “sabotage” these addictions to “stuff” by redefining “recovery” to mean waking up from a drug-induced “comfortable, dreamy, half-awareness” into a new world of solar panels and Fair Trade coffee. But this post-industrial fantasy is itself hallucinatory, portraying the Religious Left as even loopier and more archaic than the worst stereotypes about the Religious Right.
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
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Jay Molyneaux| 2.13.09 @ 6:23AM
WHAAAAT?
big booty@ | 5.17.11 @ 10:46PM
why you had to say "WHAAAAAT"
whatever the author wrote.. i agree with him.. stop writing in Capitals..
Dwight Thorne| 2.13.09 @ 6:50AM
The "less government” ideology was a fad in the whole Western world.
It wasn’t the product of some lofty ideologue; it represented a method of governing.
In the 80's preaching that government was something inherently evil was en Vogue.
Under George W. Bush the tragedy continued as a farce.
The ideology wasn’t in the least tarnished even when those in office governed miserably [compromising institutions].
That just allowed them to say, “See? We’ve been telling you for years that government doesn’t work!
Black and white picture of the world was preached:
Perfect : markets, private initiative, the invisible hand.
Not efficient: institutions, regulations, governing bodies, and bureaucrats.
Following preachers of theoretical capitalism as defined above, has given the world the greatest global disaster
since Hitler and Stalin and led to the largest governmental intervention in the economy
since Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. Capitalist paradigm of the economy died in 2009 [RIP+].
Some claimed that communism would work, save only for errors and people's enemies that derailed the glorious march.
I understand that others will state that capitalism is as well perfect, it was only derailed by liberals and other
wrong doers from it's glorious march.
Get a life, wake up - time has passed for both of these paradigms, their backers are dinosaurs
although some just don't know it yet.
Checking on how this relates to Christian worldview, I suggest not to overlook Buddist teachings. We are not the center of the Universe, but a speck in the ocean of time that moves on more rapidly than some fundamental ideologists realise.... This may scare some - but awake a few as well..
Will P| 2.13.09 @ 7:03AM
The quotes from McLaren remind me of a comic song by Tom Lehrer about the early 1960s folk movement:
"Oh we are the folksong army,
every one of 'cares'.
We all have poverty war and injustice,
unlike the rest of you squares!"
Will P| 2.13.09 @ 7:12AM
Oops:
"We all HATE poverty war and injustice,
unlike the rest of you squares!"
The song is from the hilarious record "That Was the Year that Was", which came out around 1965. Tom Lehrer was a liberal math professor at MIT who wrote, sang, and performed his own material. On the record, he makes fun of Hubert Humphrey and atomic war, among other things. Liberals seem to have lost their sense of humor shortly after that.
stu.b.con| 2.13.09 @ 8:01AM
Hey Dwight--You should have put the bong away before you put your "thoughts" on display...anyway: The "fad" of small government that our forefathers established allowed this country to grow and prosper at an unprecedented rate, raising the standard of living all over the world.
pathetic!
Bilwick| 2.13.09 @ 8:57AM
Wait a minute--I thought Christians trying to use the coercive powers of the State to force submission to their dogma was a BAD thing?
I'm non-religious so, in the immortal words of James Lileks, "I don't have a god in this fight;" but I'm always curious how the Religious Left, which tends to be pacifistic, justfies their endorsement of State aggression. And how they get around "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Goods."
Francis Beckwith | 2.13.09 @ 9:12AM
Oddly, the Rev. McLaren seems addicted to psychologizing disagreement. Why does he suppose that anyone fears anyone else? For example, among my conservative friends, no one "fears" Muslims or gays. In fact, many of them friends who would self-identify themselves in this way. But what they oppose is a culture that does not take jihad and marriage seriously. They, of course, may be wrong. But the least the Rev. McLaren can do is extend to them the boundless charity he offers to those who despise his brothers and sisters in Christ.
McLaren, sadly, has embraced the stereotypes of his fellow Christians harbored by those who do not love the Church or the Christ that founded it.
Trotter| 2.13.09 @ 10:24AM
Maybe it's just me, but McLaren sounds like a raving loon. But, that certainly wouldn't disqualify him from being a liberal.
Joe B| 2.13.09 @ 10:30AM
"For many people, economic recovery means 'getting back to where we were a few months or years ago,'" McLaren sermonized. "That means recovering our consumptive, greedy, unrestrained, undisciplined, irresponsible, and ecologically and socially unsustainable way of life."
Dammit! Why should I give up anything about my lifestyle? Why should I even bother recycling? So we can make room for more kids produced by Mexican baby factories. Because that's what it boils down to here in California. This is a straight up plea to white guilt, that we should all minimize our foot print on the planet and reign in our unmatched levels of economic succes . Well, Americans have been trying to do that since the 1970s, restricting themselves to two kids, barely replacement level. So how the hell did America end up with 100 million more people since then. And these people are not the patriotic next door neighbors I had growing up in the 60s and 70s. They are mostly immigrants on the make who are loyal to their tribes and don't care a whit about conserving anything. McLaren can get bent. God has a special place in Hell for this hypocrite.
LQQK at this| 2.13.09 @ 12:33PM
"Emergent liberal evangelicals stressing community over doctrine" show their absolute distrust of God and their rejection of God's authority. To not be accountable to Godly authority or trying to understand the doctrines of a God who loves us and created this world for us to live in and have dominion over is sadly the mark of unbelief. When you pick and choose the doctrine you do believe and reject God's total authority it would be easy to become "disenchanted" and spew the kind of nonsense as stated by McLaren
Josh W| 2.13.09 @ 12:47PM
So change means going backwards does it? A man's life is not made out of what he owns, but objects may enable him to live. And not just objects, but living systems from fields to gardens to forests. The poor do not need to "extract" things from the world, they need to have their surroundings work for them. Now that can mean reshaping matter into machines of various kinds, as in normal product creation, but that is only one way. A man with a farm does not need you to "make" seeds for him, but he might like information on weather patterns or farming techniques, as well as flood defences to protect his crop. These are just some examples of a modern and non-product centred perspective on helping people. Why tell you this? Don't assume that people who disagree with you are idiots, assume they know something you don't until proven wrong, considering others better than yourself.
Obviously some parts of our way of living have been wrong, so instead of pretending you're perfect and any criticism is destructive, a better argument is to show that his analogies do not hold.
McLaren overuses certain analogies, from fear to drugs, to give him an excuse to chuck all his favourite points into a discussion on the economy. If you want to criticise him, split up his arguments and show how they are different; how carbon is too big a target, as we are made of it, how fear didn't kill the economy etc. etc.
And to Joe B, the general rule for giving up stuff in your life is because it is wrong, either because it causes pain and discomfort to others or because in the end it works against you. Now by the justice of God the first one is always the second too. Also Mexican people are far more than baby factories, and because of this you have the hope of talking to them, finding out what causes them to have so many children, and helping them to stop. Like all of us these people will have to learn that the world needs looking after, but if the world as it is now offers them no hope, they won't feel that worried about losing it.
daddio| 2.13.09 @ 12:53PM
Twaddle.
JP| 2.13.09 @ 12:53PM
The late Bishop Sheen once asked, "Would the East (read the Communists) discover Christ before the West discovers The Cross. Back then Communism, with its prepetual demands for sacrifice, self negation, and "working for a common good" had a very profound effect on many in the West. The West, even back in the late 40s, was seen as decadent, slothful, and immoral.
For Christians living in the USA and Europe there was always something redeeming in the oppressive societies spawned by Lennin, Mao, and Stalin. They got the masses to work; they provided guidance in overcoming selfishness; they were at least attempting to get thier subjects to live a virtuous life, while the free Christians spent thier time drinking Coca Cola, driving muscle cars, and moving to Levitown.
Little did any of these intellectuals realize, but they fell into the same trap that many Europeans (and not a few Americans) at the turn of the century fell into. What many intellectuals really want is a New Christ to replace the old One. Just Read Hegel's and Kant's ejaculations concering Napolean (Kant called Napolean's rise a Dawning of a New Age) to see how even these 2 brilliant thinkers got suckered into that cult. Fascism and not Communism is the bane of the post-modern world. It is no accident that so many Christians fall into the same trap. Nietzsche saw it coming during the late 19th Century - The Beast with Red Cheeks he warned about. The soul demands transcendence, and if The Church cannot provide it, the soul will look elsewhere. Out task is not to find Christ for we know where he is. He hangs from a Cross. The East never did find Christ, and we still run from The Cross.
JP| 2.13.09 @ 1:02PM
Josh,
Leftish calls to goverment action from the pulpit was tried before. Left Progressivism morphed into what we call Fascism.
rr| 2.13.09 @ 1:06PM
Environmentalism is an ideology for secular (or nominally religious in this case) wealthy urbanites. They do not suffer or at least not so much from its results: higher prices, decreased economic opportunities, higher unemployment, more disease, and a lower standard of living.
Terry Dexter| 2.13.09 @ 1:13PM
Ignoring the trite, post-modern commentators, we find two (2) common themes never mentioned by either end of the spectrum.
1. The Books of the Old Testament speak to the creation, growth and decline of an entire race of people (Israel) set aside by God.
2. The Books of the New Testament speak, not to people as a whole, but to the unique individual.
In the former, a People seek an identity apart from the other civilizations inhabiting their territory. Their eventual growth as a regional power, their enslavement(s), and their continuing waiting/search for Messiah establishes their true cultural identity.
In the latter, the text speaks to the individual as we all seek to understand our unique role in today's society. The great multiplicity of Christian 'sects' is a strong indication of the paths taken in our search.
As a unique individual, I choose a path in which I stumble, fall, pick myself up and, with faith in the God above, continue on in an unperfect way. I know I am fallible and weak, but I know where to seek forgiveness, where to seek Truth.
Dave Hanson| 2.13.09 @ 1:59PM
As always, Mr. Tooley delivers a cogent, insightful assessment of contemporary society within (and without) the Christian Church, through the God-given worldview of the Bible. My thanks to him. Economic 'recovery', eh? Here's the Christian perspective: "You shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He Who gives you the power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers..." (Deuteronomy 8:18).
Mr. Tooley also confirms my suspicions of ungodliness about the so-called "emergent" fad in general and Brian McLaren in particular.
Mr. Tooley's evidence shows that McLaren preaches yet 'another gospel' retread--same old, tired, 'progressive' good works shtick. Ever since the Garden the wicked (whether pseudo-Christian or secular) have substituted man's works for Christ's, man's 'laws' for God's.
Mr. McLaren, as quoted by Mr. Tooley, in purporting to describe 'christian' understanding of life makes NO:
1) confession that Jesus is Lord and God come in the flesh (Romans 10:9; I John 4:2-3, 15);
2) submission to God's holy Law as the norm for man's behavior (I John 5:2-3; John 15:10-14);
3) admission that natural man stands at enmity against God due to sin ("the transgression of the Law", I John 3:4) both original and personal, in which man is "dead" (Genesis 2:16-17; Ephesians 2:1-3);
4) recognition that God must and freely does pardon a man's sin in order to effect reconciliation between God and that man (Psalm 51; II Corinthians 5:18)
5) confession that only by His sovereign and free grace does God pardon any man's sin, and only through His only begotten Son Christ Jesus and His blood (John 6:44, 65; 10:1-10; 14:6; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 2:4-10; I John 1:7);
6) apology for effectively adding to God's Word humanistic Leftist junk that's not God's Word--for which addition God rebukes a man, calls him a liar, and visits upon him apocalyptic damnation (Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18).
1-5 above = the Good News, the "gospel" of Christ, of His Person and work--i.e., "the faith once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). Item 6 demonstrates a basic human habit--adding an 'extra', human gloss to God's commands (cf. Genesis 3:3)--and the terrible danger that habit poses. Anathema to the so-called 'emergent church' and its 'other gospel'. As they point to the Obamassiah as if he were a christ, they vindicate the truth of our Lord's warning (Matthew 24:23-26).
God bless you Mr. Tooley; thanks for your 'ministry of information' for us all.
Dave Hanson
Fayette, Iowa
Nick in Virginia| 2.13.09 @ 2:05PM
"By making ... Christians and Jews afraid of Muslims, ... these [political] leaders get a quick organizational high..."
I'm sorry, it isn't the political leaders who have made me afraid of the Muslims, it is the Muslims themselves who have made me afraid of Muslims.
You know, the Muslims who perpetrated 9/11, killing nearly 3000 people; who say that Israel (and the U.S.) should be wiped off the map; who have no respect for human rights (ask the woman who was gang-raped, and subsequently punished for adultery); you know, all the Muslims who indicate that they wish to participate harmoniously in a new world order - NOT!!
Obvioulsy, I must be an Islamo-phobe to develop fear based on such peaceable actions as those.
Joe B| 2.13.09 @ 2:32PM
Nick, you omitted to mention the quaint little Muslim custom of female genital mutilation. Try to imagine this procedure being carried out on a beloved family member, then recall that FGM is performed by mother on daughter -- victim of brutality becomes victimizer. Muslim culture is hideous to think about so why do we keep importing these people into the US. The overwhelming majority of Americans don't want them as neighbors, if for no reason other than we know the horrible things that must be happening behind closed doors -- honor killing, wife beating, child marriage, and slavery.
Matt Scott | 2.13.09 @ 2:36PM
Nick, sorry but you have some faulty logic there. Do you think that black people should fear all white people because of the KKK? Should all Jews fear... everyone, because of various periods of violence over history? Should I fear everyone who lives in city limits because of gang violence?
Fear is the currency that those who seek more power dwell in.
Doug IN AZ| 2.13.09 @ 2:50PM
I think ya'll should check out Mark Tooley before you simply swallow what he has to say. Being familiar with both he and McLaren, I have to give the creditability to McLaren. Not that everything he says is gospel, take it all with a grain of salt.
I am struck by the use of the language "Liberal Evangelical." Still sorting through that. . .
Danielle| 2.13.09 @ 3:33PM
Why would I believe anything else in the article when you make the unsupported claim that the Evangelical Left movement is made up of [string of insulting descriptions] instead of acknowledging that they are people who believe in God like you (presumably) do?
Trotter| 2.13.09 @ 3:50PM
Danielle:
You mean kind of how the left describes Conservative evangelicals?
Matt Scott:
Please relax. I don't believe Nick was attempting to make a broad generalization. He was merely countering McLaren's broad generalization.
JP| 2.13.09 @ 4:26PM
Danielle,
The Evangelical Left Movement wishes to use the federal goverment to achieve social ends. This isn't the first time liberal Protestants have gone this route. In the distant past thsere were many things religious and agnostic people could agree on. The Founding was made up of such people. The ideas of Federalism, a Constitutional Republic, The Bill of Rights were just a few major areas of this agreement.
About a 110 years ago, there was a movement made up of Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptist scholars who wished to take our democracy a step further. Over the next 25 years they established the thoeretical groundwork for an activist goverment which would mold a "better citizen", a more equal society - a nation that conquered partisan politics, income inequality, hunger, poverty, and ignorance. The early champion of this Muscular Christianity was Theodore Rosevelt.
Of course, there was a dark underside to Progressivism. The practioners disliked our constutional democracy (it was to0 pounderous and too partisan); Progressivism was very irreligious (without saying they considered the Catholic Church Enemy #1); they disliked what we would call today "the extended nuclear family (it got in the way of "educating the Youth"); and were enthusiastic fans of Eugenics -abortion and contraception were openly discussed as means to control both the ignorant Southern Europeans and Blacks. The 1930 Lambeth Conference of Anglicans eventually endorsed artifical contraception as a result. The Progressives paved the way for the European version of Progressivism -later dubbed by the Italiens as Fascism.
Without a doubt progressives caused a split within mainline protestant churches. The Fundementalist Movement began in the early 20s. Pious, orthodox Protestants had nowhere else to go.
Today's Evangelical Left also endorses a very expansive Federal Goverment. Climate change laws are not stewardship, but an ever present Nanny-State monitoring and ultimately deciding you energy use, food consumption, and driving habits. Liberal Evangelicals also wish for the goverment to ration speech, intervene directly into the affairs of families. And ultimately they wish for the goverment to determine what is considered approved religious practice.
In short, Liberal Evangelicals are fascists dressed as religious.
chemman| 2.13.09 @ 5:49PM
The "emergent" church seeks to elevate community over creeds and then bemoans the lack of christian character on the conservative side of Christianity. But it is because the conservative side functionally gave up the creeds also to build their mega-churches, user friendly churches etc. After all it is the creeds like "Thou shalt not Covet" or the Creed if a man doesn't work he shouldn't eat" or "a man should quit stealing, work with his own hands to provide for himself and put aside a little to meet the needs of others" or "Love thy neighbor as yourself" or the creed that a man shouldn't think too highly of himself" As you can see both left and right spend inordinate amounts of time practicing things that deny Christ while still parading before others that they love God.
As to some of the sins that McLaren identifies the conservatives guilty of I will believe that he is serious when he shows me that he himself has abandoned sucking on the teat of big oil/coal/nuclear and is living the simple life he espouses on his own renewable energy homesite. Lacking that he should practice "Judge not". For those of you leftists who will attempt to throw the Judge not back into my face here's my e-mail: chemman@usa.net send me your e-mail and I will forward you pictures of my solar/wind system and green-house that I use to provide for myself and donate the extra to a local food-bank.
Until you practice what you preach about carbon, those who still live off of carbon are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites who need to mind your own business.
Broken Commandments| 2.13.09 @ 5:54PM
The 10 Commandments, keep the SABBATH HOLY. All these fake Christians and fake Jews, who worship , ISIS, HORUS, SETH, OSIRIS.
It's no wonder the world has been cursed under George W Bush who demanded the 10 Commandments be removed from the Supreme Court. And every Shop is open 7 days per week.
Legalised Prostitution, Pornography, Child sexual abuse, adultry, mass murder, promoting Terrorism, by way of providing ammunition for acts of violence. Telling lie in order to attack others countries, with no justification.
False pretence of being Christians, when they are not. Racial hatred, gluttony, lust, avarice, pride, sloth, wrath, envy. The 7 deadly sins, of the NATION and 2003 - 2010, the 7 years of tribulations world wide, the Iraq war with no end, and the Afghan war, the Pakistan war, pending, the Israeli war with Palestine, and the Israeli war
with Iran pending, which will turn into a world war, followed by FAMINE and DISEASE, the out break of BIRD FLU, the ECONOMIC situation will worsen, and ROME will be burnt down as a city, the whore of Babylon will be destroyed by accident. She lost her power but got it back, all the world leaders committed fornication with her.
She once decided who would be crowned Kings of Europe, now there is the treaty of Rome, where all the leaders of Europe seeks her blessing.
We will hear of wars and rumours of wars, people being falsely accused, imprisoned and killed on the basis of religion, and all these religions are in themselves false.
Alan Brooks| 2.13.09 @ 6:04PM
if feminists dont mind clitoral mutilation, then we'll turn a blind eye.
stoning
drowning
*honor* killing
etc etc
etc
etc
sirs, i was brought up to let people do their own thing...
Stan redmond| 2.13.09 @ 6:11PM
All this peace love and understanding would be fantastic. I would ejoy living in a world where we all get along and pick daisies where all of us treat eachother with respect and love. BUT, first figure out how to get people like Kim Jong Il, Nasrallah, and Putin then maybe I'll join you. In the meantime, I'm gonna go clean my weapons with fossil fuels because they make me feel oh so warm and fuzzy.
Alan Brooks| 2.13.09 @ 8:43PM
Broken Commandments,
Daphne! you are definitely going to heaven because your heart is in the right place.
in the meantime, here is 20 mg. of paxil.
MikeD| 2.13.09 @ 9:28PM
There's a lot of posturing from the emerging/liberal "Evangelicals", especially McLaren, on belief in the Cross and the Resurrection. But, they really don't believe in either Heaven or Hell (full disclosure, I don't either but then I don't hold myself out as an Evengelical).
Most disturbing however, is their tacit support for abortion. Without a belief that abortion is the killing of the most innocent you forfeit your right to claim to be a Christian! McLaren would have you believe it's not about Judeo-Christian morality, but only about how the "argument" is framed.
http://archives.wittenburgdoor.com/archives/mclaren.html
MCLAREN: A huge challenge for us is to learn how to reject badly framed arguments, and frame better ones. In my opinion, if you frame the question as, "Are you for or against overturning Roe versus Wade?" you don't get very far. You quickly get paralyzed in disagreement and there's nothing to say except repeat yourself louder and louder. We need to reframe the issue, maybe by acknowledging that in my experience at least, there are relatively few people who are actually for abortion. A better-framed question, in my mind, would be, "What are the best ways people who are against abortion can help reduce the number of abortions?" And another important framing question would be, "What are the underlying values or beliefs in our society that make abortion popular?" If we fight abortion legally without dealing with the underlying belief structures, I don't think we'll get very far. Those are two very legitimate discussions that almost never are had, because we immediately click into legal frameworks, constitutional debates, us-them polarizations, and so on. When you look over the last 30 years, if we had framed the discussion differently, more wisely, we might be in a very different place right now.
Roy| 2.13.09 @ 10:11PM
Lol @ the quote from McLaren. Yeah, I'll just bet he's out there on the front lines fighting against the trends that make abortion popular.
My opinion is that those trends - namely the belief that the highest priority in life is sexual self-indulgence, that interfering with somebody else's sexual behavior is simply beyond the pale in evil, and that even voluntary abstinence from extramarital sex is plain weird and almost suspect - are irreversible. They are going to get worse, much worse, before they get better if that ever happens, and McLaren is going to vote for the politicians who help it along(though it's not really politicians causing it). I believe Americans are, just barely, still prepared to hear the argument that while of course nobody would dream of interfering with their unstinting, unflagging, unremitting self-indulgence, it should not come at the price of a helpless infant's life. But to say that we can't help the infants until we reverse trends that McLaren knows damn well aren't going to get reversed(and that I would bet he is doing nothing to try to reverse) is a blatant, transparent dodge and an exercise in bad faith.
It would be like if in the days of slavery, I said that before we could end slavery we had to end the human selfishness that caused it. Obviously, this is horse crap. A law can't stop you from wishing you could boss me around, but it can take away your power to do so. This is what is needed in the case of abortion.
J.Narez | 2.14.09 @ 1:07AM
Quite simply, McClaren is a false prophet; i.e., the correct definition of that word being "someone who speaks for God". Their version of Christianity is nothing more than paganism w/ a Christian veneer. Don't fall for it, America. As it is written:" Do men gather grapes from a thorn bush?"
Alan Brooks| 2.14.09 @ 1:31AM
Roy got it.
sex is the new God. even the Derb said way back when that Michael Jackson wasn't so dangerous. and he wasn't. he isn't.
at his age, roman polanski is no longer any sort of threat.
but where do you go from there? you let the proles do what they want and what do you get?
George Will got it just so-- corruption is trickle-down.
Alan Brooks| 2.14.09 @ 1:43AM
btw the guy who called me a kook yesterday and said i inhaled my folks' maryjewanna secondhand smoke was perceptive.
but the point i made by asking "why is it a man [many men] can't keep his trousers on in the company of a woman other than his wife?"
was that women can have several children-- while as most of you here don't need to be reminded men can have many children.
and you KNOW what that means, you know very well the depressing result.
Tim| 2.14.09 @ 10:46AM
It just occurred to me that one thing that the far left mat try which has never been tried before is to propose merging some States together.
Well it follows that if the States are really hurting financially hurting and the goal is to rig the Census to insure future Election victories then the next logical step is to.........
"In the name of cost cutting and saving Federal Goverment resourses"
we merge let us say, California with Arizona and Illinois with Indiana etc. and have the larger State be the new mega "State"
this would be the easiest way to turn many Red States into Blue State and forever establish a welfare state.
Organized Labor has been doing it for a few years now....They have been merging most of their small Locals into mega locals eliminating membership voting rights and putting hand picked folks in charge of these mega Locals.
Sound funky.........don't bet on it........we got some real socialist /commies in the White House and in Congress and if we go to sleep they will pull it off....trust me.
Your EMEMY is In Your ownhouse| 2.14.09 @ 11:47AM
I am not afraid of Muslims, when was the last time a Muslim held you up in your home and robbed you? or raped your wife or your daughter?. How many Muslims do you know, or met?.
As Christ said your enemy is in your own household. Your own fellow so called christians, who robbed and destroyed their own country on Wall Street.
People in America is not losing their homes because of Muslims, but because of greedy rich Bankers. Most Americans have more chance of being shot to death by their own people.
STOP the VIOLENCE| 2.14.09 @ 12:03PM
Police is now breaking into peoples homes to kick them out on the streets, in America, because they can't pay their rent.
Instead of hating one another, because of religion, it's time to come together to help one another. A Muslim is no less of a human than anyone else.
Americans who trusted in the system to help them has failed them. People of America it's not Muslims why you have problems in your country, it's lack of understanding and humility.
Tim| 2.14.09 @ 3:11PM
I agree that throwing Americans out into the streets is ridiculous.
The police should join forces with red blooded Americans.....and
We need to throw all of the illegals out and then throw out the socialist with the big smile who lives in DC out on his ear.
And then kick Pelosi out from her perch in 2010.
We should bomb the shit out of Iran.....
Things should start to get better after that when order is restored.
Tim| 2.14.09 @ 3:16PM
The radical muslims have Obama and the Freedom loving West has Netanyahu....
I like the West's chances of staging a comeback!
Dan| 2.14.09 @ 3:24PM
I think your dismissal of McLaren's discussion of materialism is disingenuous. McLaren is pretty deeply engaged in conversations with African Christians, and is certainly not arguing that the extent of American Christians obligations to the world is to drive a Prius. You might actually read a book he's written, and try to address his arguments, rather than knocking down strawmen.
blake| 2.14.09 @ 3:34PM
Mclaren lives in a dream world and is not taken seriously by most Seminaries and Schools of Divinity. He had has his 'hay-day' and is still trying to stay on the radar.
Post-modernism isn't even being discussed among current philosophers anymore. It is self-defeating.
People who rally behind his stale, outdated, rhetoric are too proud to admit that they are wrong and this whole 'emerging trend' is nothing more than a bunch of lazy people who like idea the idea of having church in a coffee shop or pub.
Finally, notice how Maclaren rallies behind a leader who has the intellectual savvy of a Ken Doll. Face it, his emerging Church movement is losing steam and he is sucking up to Obama so he can be a lap-dog in order to bolster his lame-duck career.
The third world America | 2.14.09 @ 3:37PM
Tim.
Why do you think Iran needs to be bombed? How would you feel if someone bombed America?. America needs to move forward into the civilized world. America has bombed more countries than any other countries in the world, and one day America may get a taste of it's own medicine.
You may be surprised to know America is losing it's place in the world as a rouge state, economically and will no longer be trusted to hold the worldwide currency if that happends it will no longer be able to constantly attacking countries that thew Jewish people don't like.
Blake| 2.14.09 @ 3:43PM
... give me a break ... if I hear one more suppressed argument about "rich greedy bankers" .
Also ... Dan you wanna talk about knocking down straw men! How about McLaren's straw man (suppressed arguement) about addictions to industry. It seems to me that Mclaren ought to be using his words to preach the cross instead of jumping on board with subjective liberation theology and the cult of environmentalism!
Mclaren is a glorified blogger ... that is all.
I agree that his reactions carry substance, but his positions are moving towards something very dangerous ... pluralism.
If the Church is in rutt then why does Mclaren feel the need to re-invent the wheel?
blake | 2.14.09 @ 3:51PM
Oh TIm ... give me a break!
You wrote: America needs to move forward into the civilized world.
Oh I get it everyone else is civilized and America needs to catch up right? Have you ever lived in another country other than USA? Explain to me how civilized the rest of the world is?
1.Are the Swiss civilized because they give out free heroin?
2.Are the Afghan's civilized because they allow their men to beat their women?
2.Is Japan civilized because they allow virtual games which revolve around raping women?
3. Is Canada civilized because they allow murderers and rapists to only serve a couple years in jail?
Do these examples sound civilized to you?
Do you want America to copy those examples?
The grass is always greener on the other side. Trust me I know I live in Canada, and our health care system is not what Obama and Micheal Moore make it out to be.
Stop complaining about the USA you ingrate!
blake| 2.14.09 @ 4:00PM
sorry Tim, I meant 'The third world America' is one who I was directing my retort.
Don't buy the RAPE GAMES| 2.14.09 @ 4:33PM
Blake.
How does people become addicted to heroin, someone has to supply it to the poor, how does it get into Europe and America its not the poor fools, its organised criminals.
Americans don't abuse women they don't use women as prostitutes on the streets of America, it's not Arab Muslims who put them out to get beaten up selling themselves on the streets, picking up diseases. Americans don't beat up their women too?. Get real!
Who goes out to buy the games, from Japan RAPING WOMEN, don't buy them, I don't infact I have never even heard of this.
Women who dress as lose women on the streets who wonder around at night are the ones getting RAPED, and America murder more people per year than any other race of people on earth.
sharon| 2.14.09 @ 5:29PM
Nowhere in what Rev. MacClaren says do I see anything remotely resembling what the historical Jesus said and did. It would appear that the idea of 'taking on the form of a servant'- like Jesus espoused and in fact did, is not part of MacClaren's lexicon. I wonder. Would he and other 'progressive' church going liberals be willing to be sacrificial followers of Chris and: give up their Prius' to a marginalized immigrant (or me, since my 20 year old Acura is leaking oil) and instead ride a bicycle everywhere, wash the feet of your enemies (ostensibly right wing evangelicals), feed the hungry (not just once or twice a year for a photo op), give ALL that you have to the poor (not the typical 2% that Al Gore and the Obamas give) and follow Christ by living a truly selfless life? I will not hold my breath. MacClaren demonstrates for us that it is so much easier to be a Pharisee than a true adherent to Judeo-Christian beliefs. As is typical with about 98% of my liberal friends, this man and the self righteous religious progressives who populate dead churches only like to talk about good deeds and instead condemn those who make them look bad.
Deepti Wadhawa| 2.14.09 @ 6:30PM
My name is Shiva, beneeth my feet are two dwarfs of rude ignorance and self pride.
The message is a simple one - let's reshuffle the cards a bit regrding importance in the economic sense in this 2009 world. Take a guess how U.S. will stack in say 10 years in terms of economic power?
Michael L. Hauschild| 2.15.09 @ 6:40AM
Very interesting……
Well I am off to church, which no doubt will draw mixed reviews from the posters here. Then I am going to go to the range and test some cast bullet loads for my 1895 lever action rifle, which interestingly turn out are the exactly the same loads and bullets they used in 1873. (Some things never change) Don’t worry, stay armed, take communion, be happy.
EMPIRES CRUMBLE| 2.15.09 @ 10:33AM
Deepti Wodhawg.
America is in decline now, and will sink into further decline in the next 10 years. One of the main reason for that is they want to become a Colonialist, but the last country that was a Colonialist was Britain, Britain did not seek to destroy the countries they controled, where America does. This is why it cost America huge sums to keep control, as a result it is bankrupting America, because they have no concept of why they want to control these countries.
To keep having wars to protect Israel 6 Million people, what does America get in return is the question? if all America gains is the opportunity to keep starting wars with no economic returns, America will become worse than a third world country.
Britain became less powerfull, and lost the Empire. which shows this Colonial ideology does not work, Britain was the last Empire, America is now the next Empire, and all Empire dies, from Rome to Greece, to Europe, to America, they all fail and end up worse than they were to begin with.
There was Babylon, Pursia, Greece, Rome, Britain, America. All failures!
Ernesto Cullari | 2.15.09 @ 12:15PM
Excellent essay. It articulates the self-righteous and radical mindset of Liberals.
stmichrick| 2.15.09 @ 12:17PM
McLaren, like most socialists, is ADDICTED to the idea that if someone gets rich by it the activity is immoral and unsustainable.
Personally, I first had that thought when I heard about Algore's carbon credit business.
Tim| 2.15.09 @ 12:55PM
Lets get to the point.
Economists or Economies don't mean squat.
If the USA's real ruling brass ever felt that third world rougue leaders like Hugo Chavez or any anyone else was a real threat to Capitalism and the West and our freedoms they would be eliminated in a second.
Need I remind the world that the American Secret Service and The USA Army.....the most pwerful in the world are both run by Capitalists and are freedom loving Westerners.
If things get too far out of wack.......they will do the wacking in a heart beat....period.
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blake | 2.15.09 @ 2:32PM
HEY whoever wrote the post: Don't buy the RAPE GAMES.
1. You took my post out of context
2. you did not read the previous posts, which were responding to some one else who labeled Americans as 'uncivilized.'
3. Do you really think anyone will take seriously your rebuttal to my post with the words (and I quote you):
America murder more people per year than any other race of people on earth (sic).
Can you back that up with facts? No you can't because you are a typical prideful person who leaves knee-jerk reaction comments without even understanding the context.
You did not even address my email, nor did you answer the questions. So don't sit there in front of your computer and think to yourself, "wow ... I sure showed blake and the rest of those evil Christian conservatives."
Finally, though I am a Canadian I am so sick of people picking on the USA. You have all benefited from the wealth of the USA (even if you don't want to admit it). Now you will all suffer as you point fingers at it. Yes, the USA is not without error, however, you are hasty to think that we are all nations with our own autonomy.
J. R. Miller | 2.15.09 @ 5:14PM
You missed the best irony of McLaren's post. He regrets that lower class Americans will go back to their "carbon dependancey" while he uses his wealth to stay in hotels (which is quite a carbon consumer) after flying there on a big jet (which is also a big carbon consumer). In the end, his ecconomic plan for "recovery" is that he travels the world to tell folks they shoud stop traveling the world. He makes money selling his books printed on dead trees, to tell people they should not kill so many trees. He encourages dialogue, but is afraid to allow comments on his own blog.
Michael Dooley| 2.16.09 @ 7:28AM
It is amusing that the Christian Right is always a threat of rigid fascism to our enlightened countrymen. Yet the biggest threats to liberty come from the religious Left. The difference is the Right tells you what they want while the Left dresses up their political aims in the name of "compassion" and "anti-hate". The religious Left will allow profane language, sexual fun and games, abortion and open borders—they’ll just control the rest. Be prepared for speech codes,
Currently, we hear in our churches that wishes for controlled immigration are unchristian and against God's command for righteous treatment of the wayfarer and “welcoming” the stranger. Does anyone seriously doubt that if our Spanish speaking "strangers" came into America and voted “conservative” that there would suddenly be a major leftwing "concern" for uncontrolled immigration policies and the disadvantages our new settlers place upon the American poor?"
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