The Nation's Pulse
The President and Abortion
36 years since Roe and Doe.
Another somber anniversary of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton is upon us. These were the decisions rendered by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1973 that mandated abortion on demand for all nine months of pregnancy. Given the present alignment of political power in Washington, there is not much prospect of relief for the unborn, in the short term, resulting from congressional action.
Nor is there any chance that the new president will appoint a conservative, i.e., non-activist, jurist to the nation’s highest court who could cast a deciding vote for repeal or substantial curtailment of these truly radical decisions which are contrary to federalism, the rule of law, and basic morality.
But things can get worse. Evidently, 1.2 million abortions, each year, are not quite enough to satisfy the advocates of abortion on demand. Encouraged by strong liberal majorities in both houses of Congress, they are gearing up for another attempt to enact into law a bill sporting the Orwellian title, the “Freedom of Choice Act,” or FOCA for short.
President Barack Obama made a distinct campaign promise to sign this legislation if it reaches his desk.
FOCA goes well beyond simply codifying Roe and Doe. It would commandeer taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions. A recent version of FOCA actually removed language ensuring that taxpayers would not be forced to pay for abortions. It now states that government may not discriminate against abortion in publicly funded programs. Moreover, this draft also deleted language found in previous versions which permitted regulations to protect rights of conscientious objection on the part of health-care providers objecting to abortion.
Admittedly, FOCA is a moving target given the iterative process of most legislative proposals. That said, there is good reason to be worried. “Even a paranoid can have enemies,” said Henry Kissinger.
In an article in the newspaper of the Kansas City-St. Joseph Diocese last October 4, Bishop Robert W. Finn stated, “It is clear that FOCA would immediately make null and void every current restriction on abortion in all jurisdictions.” He cites studies describing in detail the scope and number of state laws that would be devastated by FOCA:
Bishop Finn also notes that 38 state laws banning partial-birth abortions, 33 state laws requiring pre-abortion counseling and 16 dealing with ultrasounds before an abortion would all be obliterated.
Clearly, out and about the country, there is a profound sense that abortion, even in a post-Roe environment, is a case apart, one requiring something more than simply a laissez-faire approach given the consequences for women, minors, families, not to mention unborn children. FOCA would eviscerate this organic movement as expressed through the legislatures of dozens of sovereign states.
President Obama ought to think twice and discourage his colleagues on the Hill from moving this toxic legislation forward, notwithstanding his previous support for it. He is dealing with the most serious economic crisis since the Great Depression, and he wants to address the pressing challenge of ballooning entitlement liabilities for the long run. He is a living symbol of reconciliation for a nation that has struggled mightily to overcome a great historic divide between Americans of different color. He needs to ask himself this question: Do I risk a significant amount of my political capital and good will in an effort that will trample our federalist system, violate the rights of conscience of millions of Americans, conscript taxpayers into the culture of death, possibly shut down religious-based hospitals throughout the country, and generate political acrimony in Congress just to achieve a marginal increase in the number of abortions?
Our new President has shown a very real tendency to adapt to political realities and move to a more centrist position on everything from tax cuts to foreign policy. One can hope that he might calculate the disproportionate costs of appeasing the abortion power within his own party, even if he does not experience a change of heart and mind on the matter itself. Moreover, he might recall that dozens of new Democratic House and Senate members were elected from previously Republican districts or jurisdictions. Forcing these moderate Democrats to cast a vote for FOCA would create political difficulties they do not need in their coming re-election campaigns.
About the Author
G. Tracy Mehan, III served at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in the administrations of both Presidents Bush. He is a consultant in Arlington, Virginia, and an adjunct professor at George Mason University School of Law.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (94) | Leave a comment
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dgskt| 1.22.09 @ 9:31AM
killing our babies is the ultimate way of skipping out on our $10-trillion bill
Jeremiah| 1.22.09 @ 9:38AM
Abortion is the ultimate act of kindness towards mankind. It is the ultimate achievement for a woman. Birth is a by product of life. Death is good.
My name is Legion, I'll be your helper tonite, the special is worms. I voted Obama.
james| 3.9.10 @ 3:48PM
well screw u obama sucks and is stupid u homo and abortion sucks and is killing babies u butt
Tim| 1.22.09 @ 9:56AM
Had Obama's Mother decided to end her pregnancy....there would have been no party in the Washington Mall this past Tuesday.
So everyone that got up this morning, went to work, read a blog, went to School, complained about the Stock Market, or walked into the Oval Office needs to take a moment to thank their Mom for choosing life!
Redheart| 1.22.09 @ 10:15AM
At the Saddleback Church forum, Obama said the determination of when life begins is above his pay grade. If we are to believe that statement, as he so intently expected us to do, why then is he now ignoring his pay scale and making decisions on life? Obama has clear skies, a fine tail wind behind him, and all the fluff and glamour of Inauguration night will propel him to move quickly on everything he wants put in place. Before anybody has time to debate issues, ask questions, his supporters will get text messages or emails to call lawmakers and vote to support the president's agenda. He kept telling crowds on Tues. night that there would be change, but he needed their help. Act quickly while the hangovers are still being nursed. Fulfill as much of the far-left campaign promises as possible early on before anybody has time to notice. All the platitudes and centrist governing can occur after that.
Roy| 1.22.09 @ 10:31AM
Jeremiah:
You said it, I didn't.
George| 1.22.09 @ 11:14AM
I posted this somewhere else though I failed to note where or when, but I believe it as much now as I did then. I modified it somewhat to reflect current political realities:
(As was previously mentioned) At the Saddleback Forum held this past August, Barry O-bum-a answered a question as to when a baby was entitled to human rights by saying that the answer was above his pay grade. Excuse me, he's a graduate of Harvard Law School and at the time a U.S. Senator, the top pay grade in the Legislative Branch. He was running for U.S. President, arguably the top pay grade in the world. What in the hell was he talking about? So basically he admitted he is unqualified for the job he held then and for the job (he now holds). When he was a member of the Illinois Senate, O-bum-a voted to allow newborn babies to die if they were the product of a failed abortion. He felt they would be a burden. Once a baby is born, failed abortion or not, it is a citizen of the United States and entitled to all the legal rights of an American. It says so in The Constitution of the United States of America (Amendment 14), Mr Harvard Law School Graduate and Constitutional Law professor. What a jackass! And people actually want him to reform health care. Am I the only person scared by the prospect that the person in charge of reforming our health care believes it’s acceptable to allow burdensome citizens to die.
Soylent Green anyone?
ccd| 1.22.09 @ 11:31AM
For a weak joke, that wise crack about "above my pay grade" really pissed people off.
Paul| 1.22.09 @ 11:36AM
Hey Jeremiah, maybe someone's out there right now who will be "kind" to humanity and retro-actively abort you. Will I try to stop that guy? Well, why should I? Why should I protect you when you say we cannot protect the most helpless and innocent human beings in America?
George| 1.22.09 @ 11:47AM
Paul, I think Jeremiah's comments were written tongue-in-cheek.
AustinG| 1.22.09 @ 2:16PM
This would be a definite overreach on the part of Democrats. Though this is indicative of their thinking and beliefs. It isn't enough that you look the other way while other's murder their babies. Your tax dollars have to pay for it and if you are a hospital that receives any federal money you have to perform it. This isn't even getting into the fact that abortion(the taking of life) is the exact opposite of the basic function that hospitals have.
Ron| 1.22.09 @ 2:24PM
I am a Catholic who is pro-life. I for the life of me can't understand how Obama got the Catholic vote by nearly 8 points. If the Catholics voted for McCain, then the election would have propeled John McCain to become President, and reversing Roe could have been done in his first term as President by replacing 2 extremely Liberal judges Ginsberg and Stevens with prolife Justices. I will never say President what's his name until I see a birth certificate from the State of Hawaii. He was born in Kenya, Irish American mother was not married when he was born. Raised by white folks, speaks like a white folk, and marketed effectively the white guilt non sense of black theology by Rev. Wrong to sell us a bill of goods (not me) to buy an illegal election of $800 million.
He is not a democrat, he is a Communist. I said the Soviet Union 20 years ago would grant freedom to the non-Russian states and become Democratic, and the remaining Russian state would become Democratic, and the U.S. would become Socialist/Communist. You know what I predicted this and now it has become a reality. The outside threat will not invade us for another generation. The decay from within our borders has been eroding our traditional conservative values from the Republican party, and leading us to the secular values of the Democratic party.
China is waiting patiently on the sideline while Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India offer a distraction to which China is only to happy to witness.
Michele San Pietro| 1.22.09 @ 3:05PM
I am afraid Obama will never make abortion illegal again. Catholics who trust him are completely off base, just like they were so when Clinton was elected: the first thing the latter did was to reinstate abortion. Which will always be a crime to me.
Tim| 1.22.09 @ 3:08PM
As a Roman Catholic myself, I can answer, Ron this way.......
Many of our larger Diocees, are run by very liberal Bishops or Cardinals such as in LA which is one of the worse and borders on being totally a socialist system.
These folks, focus on social issues such as poverty and often times blame corporate America for the problems of the poor and hungry and those that have lost jobs in Pensalvania and Ohio.
Then you have the whole issue of the priest abuse scandal that forced the entire Catholic Church to loose credability and has been forced to focus on regaining that back but oh so very slowly.
Finally, the great disconnect between moral teaching and actual practice has widened to such a degree that in the end you have.....
a majority of so called Catholics voting for a guy who's church experience was rather interesting for the past 20 years and has pushed for every anti life measure to cross his desk either as a community organizer, a Illinois state legislature or during his brief tenure in the US Senate.
What is so striking is that the majority of Abortions in the USA are preformed on African Americans and other people of Color.
Which is something that those groups should be up in arms about....talk about racism!
You would think that out of self preservation and the multiplication of his own race thus securing future voters, Obama would appose Abortion on purely selfish reasons let alone that it is the taking of a human life.
To the far left Abortion has always been a way to control the population going back to Margaret Sanger nearly one hundred years ago who openly preached about holding down the non white population.
But...heck give credit to these racists....they made "Choice" an acceptable word and certainly more pleasing to the ear......
but the fact remains that "Extermination" is what has been going on......the extermination of unwanted and uneeded and less deseriable human beings.
After all---we have dwindling natural resourses and someone has got to go........
The Obama and Pelosi types just feel it's their duty and their right to decide who gets to stay, who gets to go, and who never gets to come at all.
c| 1.22.09 @ 3:38PM
You want to know why Obama got the national and catholic votes, for most people abortion Just Isn't Important.
Until churchs can take the proxy votes for all subscribers, it will remain up to the individual priority rankings who they vote for. In which case it stays legal
Flee| 1.22.09 @ 4:09PM
The one positive about abortion is that it is used by primarily Democrats. Over time this should help not hurt Republican chances. I truly wish the govt would not subsidize this atrocity.
Jeremiah| 1.22.09 @ 8:40PM
I ardently hope more pro-life people begin to see the opportunity to move the Democratic party on this issue.
The position of the party now is its greatest failing, and it consistently undercuts its moral standing.
I'd not vote Republican if St. Michael himself appeared before me and ordered me to do so, but I am always aware of this issue and vexed by the position of so many on the left.
It is ironic that the pro-life movement originally included many leftists, mostly people who were concerned about what was then called the "hegemony of medical ideas."
I see no hope of returning to those days, but perhaps there will be movement within the more moderate factions in the party, with growing numbers of people who are if not entirely pro-life, at least much less pro-choice than the party now imagines.
Holly| 3.9.10 @ 3:53PM
hey jerehmia ur a jerk and a meany pants nobody likes u
Jeremiah| 1.22.09 @ 8:56PM
"I ardently hope more pro-life people begin to see the opportunity to move the Democratic party on this issue. " If you silence them and treat them as fascists, this is gonna be quite difficult, you pompous ass.
Take a ride.
Alan Brooks| 1.22.09 @ 9:46PM
better a pompous arse than a weaselly demented losel (not lozel) cad who ought to be at phoney-lib blogs, the better to smarm you with, my queer.
call the mod., he's got nothing better to do right now, hmm?
Faith| 1.22.09 @ 11:00PM
Obama says that he wants to remake America! What's so bad about America now?................... He has run on change. He said this in his inaugeration speech. He wants to change America but he needed our help. The way he needs our help is :First he is raising taxes on cigarettes to pay for child health care, therefore they will encourage people to smoke more cigarettes, then there will be more people who will get lung cancer and die. Then he will lift all restrickens in the schools to teach free sex therefore there will be more pregnancies and the teen won't have to tell her parents she's getting an abortion. He is lifting the ban on abortion for the full nine month term. So a woman can get an abortion at any month of her term.Therefore thre will be more money for planned parenthood and the abortion doctors.And our tax dollars are going to pay for abortions over seas. With all these available dead babies there will be more stem cells for research. He said if his daughter got pregnant he wouldn't want her to have it because it would be a burden.Therefore I believe he really doesn't want anyone to live who would be a burden on his Obama land. Look at all the old who are viewed by some as a burden on society.And that's just the beginning... People , we are headed for trouble!
Ronsch| 1.23.09 @ 12:25AM
I find the comments here interesting...it's a lot of men who want to force women to undergo against their will nine months of dramatic physical changes that you guys will never know about. I am a grandfather of seven and a father of three and I have witnessed my wife and daughters undergo pregnancy and birth, and I would never, ever want to force a woman to undergo that against their will. But that is what all you insecure men want to do, place a government gun to all women's heads.
You shouldn't really wonder any more why the Republican party is the party of mostly white males, and why most conservatives are white males.
Nick| 1.23.09 @ 1:18AM
Ronsch,
I find your comments disturbing. I have 2 sisters. One has 7 kids, the other has 4. Every one of them are a blessing. Every child is a blessing. I would never, ever want to see any unborn baby forced to be cut to pieces, their heads crushed, their limbs ripped from their bodies, or burned alive with saline solution.
But you don't see your children as blessings do you Ronsch. You see them as burdens your wife had to endur for nine months. How sad for you. You want to place a government gun to all unborn babies heads.
PNMNM| 1.23.09 @ 5:05AM
Ronsch,
Nobody is forcing a woman to do anything. She has a choice to have sex or not, except in the case of rape and incest. Actions have consequences. If she does not want a baby, then don't have sex. Or have it during an infertile period. Or, if you are believer in such things, become sterile with the aid of contraception or a surgeon's knife. But don't make slaughtering the baby a choice. It is no more a choice than is deciding to take care of your sick wife or killing her because she is inconvenient for your lifestyle. Where's the love? And where is the responsibility for actions in this new Obama era of responsibility?
Abortion is currently the worst evil of the culture of death, which is turning the Western world into the sterile nation. A nation that kills its children is committing national suicide and if we want to prevent that suicide, we need to stop the killing.
Mojo| 1.23.09 @ 6:15AM
RONSCH:
It was also the woman's choice NOT to get pregnant.
George| 1.23.09 @ 11:26AM
Ronsch, I hope you recall your above comment when the Obama-Kennedy health czar denies your medications or medical procedure because as a grandfather, you are now too old to justify the expense of your health care. After all, us old codgers will be nothing more than burdens victimizing the youth of our nation, and it would be so unfair to punish them for the consequences of our personal decisions.
JJ JR| 1.23.09 @ 1:20PM
Y'all,
The thing that blows me away, even beyond Obama's radicalism on abortion, is that here is a black man vehemently supporting a practice that a self-professed eugenicist, Margaret Sanger, argued to use to limit growth in the black population! Holy irony of ironies Batman! And never mind the current atrocious rate of abortion among blacks.
You remember the urban myth that circulated among many blacks about the U.S. Government inventing AIDS and introducing into the black population--well BHO, here's a real true fact (abortion rate among blacks) that's only too true to be an urban myth!
Bob| 1.24.09 @ 9:44AM
Ronsch, you cannot convince reactionary religious zealots to use constructive reason whether they are Islamic or Christian. They are also hypocritical. I see no campaign to stop in vitro fertilization where almost as many fertilized eggs are destroyed as in abortion. I see no strong efforts for every one of these "religious" people to adopt an unwanted crack baby. I see no recognition that eggs and sperm are also potential life and thus contraception is also "murder".
The whole concept of ensoulment, i.e., when a fetus becomes a human being, varies by religion and by science. It is a judgment call and as such should be in the purview of the individual, her doctor, and her minister/priest/rabbi.
They talk about a society that doesn't protect life, but they don't talk about a society that respects individuals enough to make their own decisions. This is a slippery slope to government mandated religious dogma.
I don't know anyone that likes abortions and they should be reduced. But again, you are right about Republicans being the party of white men and their subservient blond wives.
Carole| 1.24.09 @ 11:19AM
My thanks to Bob for so clearly articulating my thoughts related to the politics of the pro life movement. I, too, wish that no woman would ever find herself in the position of having to make that terrible - and most personal - decision. Yet it is just that, a personal decision that should be made by the woman in consultation with her doctor, family and spiritual adviser.
If the potential life of the unborn is sacred, should not the lives of children languishing in foster homes or living in situations that we can't begin to fathom be equally sacred? In my mind, the hypocrisy of the pro life movement is that while insisting that every embryo be born, too many pro-lifers advocate against taxpayer support of the very social services programs that might improve that embryo's quality of life after birth.
Nick| 1.24.09 @ 3:43PM
Bob,
You're back!
So you don't "see" all these things, huh? Well try opening you're eyes. Or better yet try doing some research.
The Catholic Church and Pro-Life groups oppose in-vitro fertillization because it kill babies in the embryonic stage of life.
Orphanages disappeared in the 1970's with the plague of abortion and foster care. That is why so many couples go overseas to adopt. It's not an abundance of babies (even crack babies) that make them spend all that money. Try talking with someone who's gone through the maze of adoption.
The Catholic Church has always said contraception is evil. Try reading "Humanae Vitae" by Pope Paul IV. Pro-Life groups recognize that the IUD is designed to kill babies by preventing implantation. And the pill sometimes causes spontaneous abortions.
All mainline protestant churches prohibited the use of birth control until the Anglican Church allowed it in 1930, by the way.
An ovum (latin for egg, like fetus is latin for unborn baby) is a cell. Sperm are cells. They are not potential life by themselves. So letting one or the other die is not murder.
I don't know what other religions teach about "ensoulment", but science closed the book on when human life begins a long time ago. It begins at conception. As soon as the sperm enters the ovum a new, unique human being is formed. And no other human being has the right to say kill him.
Bob, you say it is a "judgement call". Really? So you admit, to cling to your ideology, it is OK for a mother in consultation with her doctor, and her minister/priest/rabbi to maybe kill a baby.
In a previous thread you said a baby was viable in the third trimester. I told you it was the mystic who says one minute you're not alive and then -POOF- you're a human being.
So tell us Bob, using logic, what week, day, minute does viability start? You can't tell us. So you have to admit by your own definition of viability that human beings are killed in abortion.
But you don't care, because you cling to the precept of individual autonomy above all else. A sick ideology that, down the road, leads to the powerful denying rights to the powerless just to keep their autonomy.
Michele San Pietro| 1.24.09 @ 3:54PM
It's really less than honorable that Obama reinstated the financing of pro-abortion groups. He begins like Clinton did 16 years ago: very, very badly.
Bob| 1.24.09 @ 4:23PM
Nick, this is NOT a blog on the Catholic church, which has, in many ways, been consistent on a real pro-life stance which includes limited wars, helping the poor, against in vitro fertilization, and against contraception. We are talking about POLITICS here. So where have the social conservatives been in putting these things into the Republican platform? Nowhere because they know they will lose elections even more. It is clearly hypocritical. Personally, I don't believe ANY of this belongs in a political platform.
Regarding human life, science does not tell us that the group of cells at the moment of conception is a human being. Yes, it is life just like ovum and sperm -- but it is not a human being. All three of these have the POTENTIAL to become a human, but they are not at conception. You need to read some articles on ensoulment to understand how other religions see this issue any why it is religious in nature and does not belong in a political party.
Here are some articles for you that summarize the issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sexual_jurisprudence
When you become educated on the issue, let me know.
Nick| 1.24.09 @ 6:12PM
Bob,
I wish you would express your thoughts more clearly in the future.
You said: "Ronsch, you cannot convince reactionary religious zealots to use constructive reason whether they are Islamic or Christian." You were the one that mentioned religion.
You said: "I see no strong efforts for every one of these "religious" people to adopt an unwanted crack baby." Nothing about social conservatives.
Why didn't you stick to politics if that's what you meant. If you meant political movements why did you say "religious" people?
I also included Pro-Life groups, which you didn't mention. I covered the secular and religous. Republicans haven't done that much to save the unborn, I'll be the first to admit. Social conservatives have done plenty.
As for when life begins, again tell me what week, hour, minute does the fetus (unborn baby) become "human".
I'll tell you when: At Conception. When the sperm enters the ovum, it carries 23 chromosomes from the father to combine with the 23 in the ovum. The result is a cell with 46 chromosomes with it's own unique set of DNA. Then it begins to divide, and each new cell has the new baby's DNA. It is alive, not potentially alive. It is not part of the mother. It is part of the human race. We all began our lives the same way. You don't get more scientific than that, do you?
Bob, I'm a Roman Catholic. What other religions teach on ensoulment is a minor curiosty at best to me.
Bob| 1.24.09 @ 7:02PM
Nick, please use some reason. I do not support religion as part of the platform for any major party. My representation was exactly that. Taking my statements out of context does not change fact.
I did not talk about social conservatives, because I was again making the point that religion has no place in a party platform.
I have yet to see a pro-life group that doesn't have in its base an evangelical theology. Perhaps you can show me some where evangelical Christians are not a major force for the group.
Your understanding of science is rudimentary. For example, is there brain activity before there is a functioning brain? Is there an individual if no heart exists? Please don't be a simpleton.
As to ensoulment, our country is based on the proposition that there is freedom of religion -- all religions. The fact that you don't treat all religions with respect shows your bigotry.
Jeremiah| 1.24.09 @ 9:26PM
Bob, give us a break! You're just disappointed that Sarah and her daughter decided not to abort. And do not decide what this blog should be, moron.
Nick| 1.24.09 @ 11:43PM
Bob,
You're point was religion has no place in politics. You then made arguments that attacked pro-lifers and people of faith or were fallacious and ignorant. Apparently you couldn't tell I was addressing your bogus arguments and not the point you were trying to make. But I will now.
Should MLK jr. have kept religion out of the civil rights movement? Should the abolutionists also? As I said earlier, I'm a Roman Catholic. I try to live my faith, not perfectly by any means, but I try. My faith defines who I am. It defines my ethics. It defines what is good and evil. Now how am I supposed to participate in the political system and leave my religion at the doorstep? You ask for the impossible Bob. Any Christian who takes seriously the command of Our Lord "to go preach the Good News to all nations" will never be silenced by someone like you.
I'm not sure what your point is about Pro-Life groups and evangelicals. Try going to National Right to Life for more info.
Bob you keep telling us when life DOESN'T begin, but you won't say when it DOES.
SO FOR THE THIRD TIME: WHAT WEEK, DAY, MINUTE DOES A FETUS BECOME VIABLE OR HUMAN?????
Why can't you answer that question?
And you call me a simpleton.
Speaking of which, I misread earlier when you wrote: "The whole concept of ensoulment, i.e., when a fetus becomes a human being,...." Ensoulment deals with when the SOUL is implanted into the unborn baby (fetus in latin), brainiac. How am I not treating "all religions with respect" when I said as a Catholic what other religions teach about ensoulment is a minor curiosity at best? I respect other religions, but ensoulment is a theological subject and has nothing to do with biology and the right to life issue.
I'm still waiting for that Kay Summersby proof, by the way.
Bob| 1.25.09 @ 8:56AM
Nick, again you over simplify my statements. It is great that YOUR religion informs your beliefs. I just object to YOUR religious DOGMA confining ME. That's the difference between the individual and a political party. When the argument is purely religious in nature, it does not belong in the arena of politics -- that's my point.
MLK's dogma -- i.e., how he practiced his religion -- did not enter his activities. He believed all men should have a fair chance in our society and so do I. He did not have public opinions on abortion or gay marriage that he pushed. So please don't confuse YOUR DOGMA to general secular principles.
The reason I don't present my specific position on "ensoulment" is that I don't believe it is relevant for you or me. We have a scientific definition of viability due to our science. Viability is not at the moment of conception -- you can't remove the group of cells at conception and have those cells grow into an individual.
Here's the info on Kay Summersby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Summersby
You can certainly come to your own conclusion. 24 hour cable news did not exist in those times so we'll never know for sure.
And yes, you are a simpleton.
kiki| 1.25.09 @ 3:31PM
jesus christ is coming back you must be born again. the anti christ takes over the world leader
who does it look like it is going to be to you all?
what can we do to stop abortion. there must be something. until then pray pray pray!!!
Nick| 1.25.09 @ 4:56PM
Bob,
My "religious dogma" confines no one. I present my arguments, based on my beliefs and facts, and try to sway people to my side. This is the essence of self-rule in a Republic.
I didn't know MLK jr. had his own dogma. I thought he was just a Baptist minister preaching the Christian ideal that all men are created equal. He didn't say anything about baby killing or perversion trying to redefine marriage because they weren't big issues while he was alive.
Quit bringing theology into a discussion on biology. The moment viability begins has not been scientifically defined. That is because constant medical advancement keeps redefinig it. You said viability happens in the 3rd trimester, thus showing your complete ignorance on the subject. Premature babies have been saved well into the 2nd trimester for many years now. I never once said viability happens at conception. Have you resorted to lying in addition to name calling?
You used Wiki as a source? You Bob, who admonishes everyone to use facts and data, cite Wiki as proof? What should I expect from someone who once used a story from "the insider" to bolster his crackpot theory on when Gov. Palin conceived. Not to mention the article you cite is riddled with words like "alleged", "possible", "rumors", and "fantasy" through out. I guess you'll believe anything that fits with your ideology.
Bob| 1.25.09 @ 5:23PM
Nick, I see you want to keep on changing the subject. I would expect that from someone who eschews factual information.
Regarding MLK, my point was that it was not his Baptist dogma that spoke to equality, but a general belief in equality. The abortion and gay marriage issues did exist at that time, but they were religious in nature. When you talk about "baby killing" and "perversion", it is YOU that is bringing religion into the discussion.
Regarding viability, I said that given the current science, the current law about 2nd and 3rd trimesters made some sense. It seems that it is YOU again who is bringing ignorance and an inability to comprehend into this discussion.
Regarding using Wiki, you can certainly go to the named sources and come to your own conclusions, but I have found it a good source to start some searches. If you still believe that Palin did not conceive her first child prior to marriage, that's fine. But the fact that the birth was 8 months after the marriage date and they eloped in a civil marriage without telling her parents are fact. You are entitled to believe that she became immediately pregnant and that her first child was premature -- but those are the facts.
We don't agree on the issues of free choice to individuals and civil rights for all people. I understand that. But we probably do agree on limited government, military strength, individual responsibility and lowered spending especially on social programs. My point is that if we dropped your social conservative platform from the party, it could be expanded to work for common goals that are far different than Democrats. The stubbornness of social conservatives makes the party smaller and less effective.
Nick| 1.25.09 @ 6:48PM
Bob,
I showed you given the current science, babies are living well into the 2nd trimester. The current "law" is not reasonable using your own (lack of) standards.
You've said previously:
"I don't know anyone that likes abortions and they should be reduced."
Why is that? Please enlighten me with your, uhm, logic.
If it is not a litlle baby that is being ripped apart and sucked up a hose or burned alive in saline, why should abortions be reduced? Why don't you like them? To you it is just cells right? Like removing a tumor? What is there to like or not like about removing a tumor? Should removing tumors be reduced also?
Plus Doe v. Bolton (the companion decision to Roe) said ANY pregnancy could be terminated to save the life or health of the mother, effectively giving us abortion on demand through all 9 months of pregnancy. So trying to alieve your conscience with talk of viability and ensoulment to look reasonable and reflective is moot. Even the fetuses you say are vialble and agree should be protected by law are still subject to the mothers autonomy and can be killed.
And to stay true to your ideology, you won't even speak up for these poor victims.
Bob| 1.25.09 @ 6:56PM
Nick, we are not going to agree on this one. Period.
Nick| 1.25.09 @ 7:12PM
Check and Mate
Jeremiah| 1.25.09 @ 11:09PM
Bye bye Bob.
leftrightleft | 1.26.09 @ 2:08AM
"Evidently, 1.2 million abortions, each year, are not quite enough to satisfy the advocates of abortion on demand."
Comments like this are why I have no interest in the opinions of ardent pro-lifers like you. You don't get it. Pro-choice-ers would love to see the abortion rate plummet to zero... by educating people of the benefits of abstinence, contraceptives, and family planning.
NOBODY is comfortable with abortion. But I will not pretend that outlawing abortions will stop them. And as far as the child, it is a tragic thought that potential human life is wasted. But there is nothing more tragic than to be born in to this world unwanted.
Nick| 1.26.09 @ 12:48PM
leftrightleft,
"But I will not pretend that outlawing abortions will stop them." Real brave of you.
Would you like to tell me of someone who does pretend outlawing any activity will stop it completely?
Could you also explain why you "pro-choice-ers" want the abortion rate plummet to zero? Why is nobody comfortable with abortion?
Bryan| 1.27.09 @ 1:32PM
Bob and Nick
Do we know what James Wilson (Supreme Court Justice and Constitution Signer) meant when he said "Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends and mutual assistants ... The divine law ... forms an essential part of both."
Lori| 1.28.09 @ 2:20AM
Regarding this Freedom of Choice Act. My question is, this is supposed to be an Act that would supposedly protect the pregnant woman’s rights and health regarding her choice to abort her “baby” or not. I don’t get it, it would protect “her” health and “her” rights, but what about the “baby’s” rights? What about the “baby’s” health? What about the baby’s LIFE? This innocent baby, created by God for a specific purpose, has no say in the matter. If God decides the baby should not be born, He will take care of that according to His plan. And then I thought, hey, I know it’s very sad when a woman, a mother, loses her baby from a miscarriage, and when that happens there’s sympathy and sadness because she lost her “baby”. Then it’s a real person. But when a baby, this “person” is not wanted for whatever reason, and the woman chooses to abort, this “baby” now is recognized only as a “thing” a “blob of tissue”, something to discard, and there is no empathy or caring whatsoever. Isn’t it mind blowing? Women – and it’s not totally their fault, because for the last few decades they have been lied to and blinded by such evil and false information from so-called well intentioned “medical professionals”) they can’t see straight or really think about this “new born LIFE issue” clearly at all. Not to mention, oh my gosh, if the baby survives the botched abortion, this law would allow the baby to be killed after that. It’s shuddering. In fact, during the most intense part of the presidential campaign and Planned Parenthood was in the news – I think you remember why, I heard the niece of Martin Luther King speaking and she opened my eyes to the truths behind this “ever endearing institution” - "Planned Parenthood" and what a false front this institution is and has been since its inception – how they have been mainly targeted and set up in low-income, Black neighborhoods, it’s all for the almighty dollar, and it is not something that her late uncle would ever approve of.
As O'Reilly would say, "What say you?"
Nick| 1.28.09 @ 12:42PM
Bryan,
I'm no expert in such matters, but I would assume Mr. Wilson means the natural law. And by "natural law", I'm refering to Saint Thomas Aquinas' teachings on the subject, and those that followed him.
Our system of justice, what survives at least, has such a rich and interesting history. What a shame so many are ignorant of it.
Thanks for bringing to my attention this Founding Father. I will enjoy learning more about him. From the little I read so far, he sounds remarkable.
Bryan| 1.28.09 @ 3:59PM
Bob and Nick,
James McHenry (REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION; SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS) has insight when he says, "Bibles are strong protections. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."
Contreceptives no Abortions| 1.29.09 @ 2:40PM
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brooke| 2.2.09 @ 5:41PM
we need to make a stand inocent children are dying! it doesnt make a difference what people think abortion is murder and now we are paying for people over seas and here in the us to get abortions we are paying people to kill so wat does that make us..........assassins?
Shelia Waslowicz| 2.6.09 @ 7:16AM
First of all I address Legion. The Lord rebuke you. Secondly, I do not believe Obama was put into office by God (the God of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob, You know, The one true God.) Obama coming into power simply says that America is on its way to being a communist country. Let's not forget that no President in this country ever got elected by himself. President Obama is simply a mirror of the American people and how evil our society has become. All of you so-called christians who voted for Obama, rest assure, you voted against God Himself. You certainly will reap the consequences. You want to live in terror and fear for your life every moment of every hour, then keep right on siding against God. By the way, most abortions are sought by so-called Prodestants and Catholics, and then those who profess to have no God at all. Just do your homework and you will see that this is true. Rather than constantly blaming Obama we all should be looking in the mirror and asking ourselves the question, Who am I and how can I make a difference? Obama is not confused, He has an agenda and he knows exactly what he is doing. Please, let all hypocrits be silent. You either go all the way with God or not at all. God does not compromise, period! All you racists, please stop. Don't vote based on a persons skin color. If your on Gods side you are on the winning side and you cannot lose! Obama clearly is not on Gods side. While I pray for him, I do not embrace him as a good leader at all. It is better to obey God rather than man. My hope is that this will cause people to THINK. May God bless each and every one of you.
arc angel| 2.11.09 @ 2:19PM
im nutraul on this subject but i understand wats goin on. in school in im learnin wat will happin to the human race if we continue the way we are. the human population is killin the planet and the goverment knows that earth's copacity will reach its limit in the next centry. although we will be gone wat will become of our kids and theres. many believe that wen this time comes the goverment will do wat it has to to save us. and we know wat that means. think about it wen an animal is overpopulated we kill them to keep it level. humans are wel protected by law so we cant just kill people or can we. with america's suffisticated sercurity how are drugs and guns still elegaly imported i mean come on there are so many people that would make good cops and ecs. but departments only choose a salected few there is a reason for that guns drugs and deases are our predetors the way humanity controls its population so y not add abortion to the mix.dont getme wrong abortion is bad but so is people havin babies who dont need to have babies. there are so many people i know shouldnt of had a baby wen they did. i believe if u aint ready for a child and the rest of your life bein for the child if u not mently ready for it give it back to god im sure he would understand besides like i said before the world can only take so much. this step aboma takin is tuff but because deffernt cultures dont know or cant keep there pants on for watever reason we made it so this abortion thing has to be put in play. knowing this how hard will u teach your kid the importants of abstanants
John Larsala| 2.13.09 @ 7:50AM
I wish I could live forever here. I do not want to die. The only condition I will choose to die is if it for a cause to defend and protect my family. If I choose to die then I am the one that is making the choice- not my mother, my father or any professional.
It is nonesence to argue about when does live begin in the belly of a lady. It begins at the beginning , all ye nicked heads!!The minute someone find out that a lady is pregnant means that there is a life that has began.I will appear stupid to ask someone else about when life begin in the case of pregnancy.
So going to the President to ask him this question is just encouraging more uncertainty in his own mind.Then we are responsible for the seed of uncertainty!
Instead, I will encourage the President to resist any forein idea that will take him captive and mislead him to cherish his own life and that of others especially unborn. Whether he accept it or not, the President is to protect the nation from any attack . The attakers may come from within the country or outside. So the pregnant woman and her baby need to be protected by the President. Have we agreed on thaT???
To me the President is the big man whose house is built on the hill, that sits in the biggest chair with his big hat on his head. He is suppose to be wise to make decision to take care of everyone - the unborn. If that wise President makes a decision to destroy our seeds lets let him know. We have the responsibility to go to the President and tell him to that we want to keep our seeds no matter what it takes. ok? Do not blame the President. He can only do what we all agreed upon. If our seeds are being destroy do not blame the President , blame ourselves who just pretend to protect the unborn by blaming someone else . One solution : All that has a child should teach his or her child from the beginning that they should not arbort their children.
JOHN LARSALA
I used to be a refugee. I ran away from my country because of war. The only thing I took with me was my life and I AM STILL KEEPING IT- THANK GOD !!!
ame| 3.4.09 @ 9:25AM
Obama's willingness to allow infants to be killed after they are born after botched abortions is barbarian.
That alone disqualifies Obama from any voter of any conscience - any moral center - much less Catholics and Evangelicals.
Obama said the first thing he will do as president is sign a bill that allows NO restrictions on abortions and that means, for all intent and purpose, killing babies and Obama has no qualms with that.
Obama has no moral and no ethical core - he is solipsistic and so falsely egotistical as to be a clear danger to any freedom loving nation. Killing babies is anathema to any civilized nation and any person who condones killing babies as Obama has is the lowest of cowards, and fools elected that coward president and he is now attempting to end "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for all Americans.
HMM| 3.23.09 @ 11:19AM
This is how I see it, abortion for any reason beside a medical neccessity isn't ok for me. I think that it should be extreme circumstances for it to be aloud. But to force everyone to pay for something so that people can continue to use it as a birth control is wrong. I am not a very religious person, but I do feel that its not ok to KILL a child. Just because it hasn't taken its "actual" first breath then you can kill it. That should say something for the doctor that would do something like that. I have 3 kids and I never thought once to have an abortion. I was 16 when I got pregnant with my first. I am now married to the same man, onle received assistance for a very short time. I am a registered nurse and my husband is in the Army. If you find yourself in this kind of problem and are not all lucky to have family that could help. I have never once had anyone else raise my children or asked them to pay for them. But to understand that our president wants to kill babies and make others who do not agree withit is wrong. He is taking away the same rights that he wants to give to these people
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protectoroflife| 12.10.09 @ 2:49PM
I have just a few things to say... First, Obama is federally funding induced labor abortions through planned parenthood.. Second, viability of a fetus begins at 20 weeks gestation... I would know... my daughter was delivered at 19 weeks 6 days gestation and was "not medically viable" although she lived for 5 minutes she was unable to sustain life with all possible interventions available... Lastly, Abortion after 20 weeks gestation is not only murder, but premeditated murder and should be treated as such... isn't that why we have programs such as the safe haven for unwanted newborns to go without question??
Abortion because of the follow | 3.15.10 @ 6:54PM
Without abortion I can only see more trailer trash in this country...
Perhaps we should instead cut away our ability to make children and fuck like crazy!!!
Then we could adopt children from the Developing (poorer) World who needs a happy life while mammy and daddy can fuck like crazy with no risk and worry of getting children unprepared...
Moreover I was thinking of sending planes and dumping a couple of hundreds thousand porn magazines down in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, just to make them relax a little bit.. world peace!
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James Goode| 3.9.10 @ 3:55PM
Abortion is BAD and i hate it so die
Havard boy | 3.15.10 @ 6:51PM
Without abortion I can only see more trailer trash in this country...
Perhaps we should instead cut away our ability to make children and fuck like crazy!!!
Then we could adopt children from the Developing (poorer) World who needs a happy life while mammy and daddy can fuck like crazy with no risk and worry of getting children unprepared...
Moreover I was thinking of sending planes and dumping a couple of hundreds thousand porn magazines down in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, just to make them relax a little bit.. world peace!
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Getting Hercules to Help You
Hercules won’t help you until you have all five items from Zeus’ quest. Once you have the five items, bring them to Athena. Zeus will appear and steal them. The big jerk! Once this happens, talk to Athena and she will tell you that Hercules will help you. You’ll need to have the magic mirror from Aphrodite because Hercules doesn’t want to have to walk. He’s so lazy!
Getting the Hydra Scale
You can see how to do this in the videos, but basically you need to jump up when the Hydra is about to strike. He will rear one of his heads back to attack and his eyes will bulge out. When this happens, jump up in the air and then try to land on top of his head. That head will get knocked out. When all five heads get knocked out, the Hydra will be asleep and you can click on him to get one of the scales. Poptropica
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