The Leave Baby Alone Coalition - The American Spectator | USA News and Politics
The Leave Baby Alone Coalition

Re: Robert Stacy McCain’s ‘Punished With a Baby’:

For once in his life, Obama got it right: leave the children of the candidates alone.

Palin’s daughter has nothing to do with her qualifications or capabilities.
Dudley McFadden
Sunnyvale, California

Please, editors, check on Robert McCain, make sure he’s alright.

Just read his article about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy. Mr. McCain is really hyper-ventilating over this development.

I consider myself pretty much as Conservative as one can get, Republicans in general are liberals as far as I am concerned. However, my family has lived through surprise and single-parent pregnancies. Nowadays, whether ya like it or not it’s almost impossible to prevent.

I am quite happy to find that our future Vice President has a family as screwed-up as the rest of us.
Andy Grego
Richland, Washington

That puck and goal comment from Stacy McCain is so crass and tasteless it makes me furious the more I think about it. I guess he couldn’t make any clearer that he thinks the Palins are trash, unworthy of office. Fine. You of the completely pure lives can fund The American Spectator. And Stacy can go straight to hell — or to the Democrats. I don’t ever want to see your rotten mag again.

‘Punished With a Baby’ does this not sum up how liberals feel about child bearing and responsibility? The Dems exude the culture of death. They can’t even bring themselves to speak out against the infanticide that is partial birth abortion. However, Republicans like Sarah and Todd Palin see this for what it is: life. I have a 17-year-old daughter as well and I could not imagine responding any other way. Will Bristol struggle and regret her actions? Most likely. But she will never regret having her baby and learning a valuable, but tough lesson. It’s always tough to do the right thing. These are the moments that reveal individual character and more importantly, those of individuals who profess that they are looking out for the little guy.
Seth Kanter

I am going to have to disagree almost totally with Robert McCain on his assessment of this issue. To put it bluntly, there is no down side for the McCain/Palin campaign because of this pregnancy. Why, you ask? Let me ‘splain, please.

In the first place, the campaign did not attempt to hide the fact of this young woman’s pregnancy. They simply did not notify the press about it. Neither did they trumpet the existence of a Down’s Syndrome child — they let the media do that on its own. They wanted it to be treated as a private family matter that had no bearing on the campaign. There was no possible way that this matter could have been kept confidential. The news media or Democratic political operatives would, and did, ferret it out in short order as it was fairly common knowledge in Gov. Palin’s home town. And the media, in this era of “press release” journalism, would automatically assume that if they actually had to do their job and go out and find information, then someone was trying to hide it from them.

In today’s society, this is a non-issue. Two children made a mistake. Apparently all parties involved are going to assume responsibility and bring the child into this world and attempt to provide a stable home and family for it. What is the downside for the campaign? There is none. Gov. Palin’s family adheres to her stated values of anti-abortion, personal responsibility and family values. If she ran for President today, she just wrapped up 80% of the Conservative vote. And, by making this a private family matter with no bearing on the campaign, it takes both family off the campaign table and shifts the spotlight back onto the candidates and the issues. Which is where the McCain campaign wants it to be.

The only downside here is to the Obama campaign. Because of how this was presented as a “gotcha” of Gov. Palin by the media and liberal bloggers, Obama was forced to issue a statement supporting his adversaries’ campaign and criticizing the actions of his allied media organs, or risk looking like a political thug. It also has served to highlight Obama’s public stance in favor of unlimited abortion.

An added bonus is that it dramatically reduces the power of the liberal blogs, in this campaign. Many of them were touting the theory that Palin’s youngest child, born with Down’s syndrome, was in fact Bristol’s child. Bristol’s pregnancy effectively eliminated that possibility and will serve to cast doubt on the accuracy of future liberal blog reports by making the bloggers appear incompetent and petty.

Whether the handling of this issue by the McCain/Palin campaign was extremely good tactics, or extremely good luck, the results are the same; positive for McCain.

I have one piece of advice for campaign watchers. Do not analyze this battle using conventional campaign norms and wisdom. I am not a McCain supporter, but his campaign staff has been masterful so far. This campaign is all about Obama and his message of change. A message that, as yet, has little substance. Yet, outside of the bulk of the media and the liberal fringe, he has little actual support. McCain’s people have built a ticket that just may get Conservative voters to the polls. They have managed to leave the media and lib bloggers with egg on their faces. And they have managed to gain a sympathetic response form their adversary, while pointing up his record on abortion in a backhanded way. I may have been wrong in my assessment of the coming campaign. This may not be such a yawner after all.
Michael Tobias

The only crisis precipitated is one that will identify who is and who is not a bona fide hypocrite.

That someone even posits that an election hangs on this issue with Gov. Palin’s pregnant but unmarried teenage daughter is preposterous.

Equally idiotic, though cowardly as well as two-faced, is how the Demockacrats, liberals and leftists — and their lapdogs, actually campaign propagandists, in the wrongly named MSM — raise a standard to which none — none — of them have ever challenged one another to meet.

As for the ridicule that has already ensued and will follow? Please, are we now saying that late-night comedians have that much influence or moral authority?

What a sad day for America when, yet again, the unborn, who have no rights — especially if they find themselves at the hands of the DLLs — must endure the evil and cynicism that dwells in the already-borns’ hearts and souls.
C. Kenna Amos
Princeton, West Virginia

Every writer needs a column, wrong or not. “The tale of a pregnant teenager could determine who will be the next Leader of the Free World.” Sounds like Kos or Huffington (who mimic the Daily Mirror style). They hope to change the Palin “disclosures” into “scandals.” Columnist McCain can’t see the forest of voters, the big picture. Among those who watch late night comedy, who cares? Among those who vote, who cares? The socialists, that’s who. Their tools are a wedge, hammer and chisel used to chip off or wedge those not in lockstep. These tools are tried and true. Socialists don’t care how vile their tactics, their goal is winning, whatever it takes. Who cares if Bristol Palin isn’t running for office? The target is Conservatism, and in this campaign they are brandishing their tools in full view. In our war here at home, a pregnant teen might have shot the Red Bear.
Russel Ready

The “other” McCain is apparently taking heat for his comments about the veep choice, but as one who was not going to vote for president at all because I wouldn’t vote for a Democrat and I firmly believe John McCain will be an abysmal president, I have since removed my “We’re Screwed ’08” bumper sticker. 1) My wife is now energized for the Republican ticket and 2), if we can get McCain in with Palin as Veep we have a true opportunity to get “Washington” out of Washington and stick a finger in the eye of the traditional Republican party leaders and elites. Something that is sorely needed. It seems to me that it is this non-Washington politician selection that is the reason for all of this and clearly this woman in no idiot. Just the way she has managed her life to this point in time has the effect of showing voters what many of them have always understood, we have many people in this country capable of serving and doing things right, if it was so hard to do we wouldn’t have Washington filled with as many misfits as it is. Just look at them all!

I sure wish her well, Sarah Palin is perhaps the only choice that could have generated this much interest.
Roger Ross
Tomahawk, Wisconsin

Why is it we, meaning all of us, think this is a tragedy? Is it because it might cost us an election? Let’s focus on the baby, the mother, the father and not the future grandmother. There is no place in politics for this discussion. Does anyone think the future grandmother wanted or condones this? I say NO. Let those who wish to use this rant on but believe me they will end up in the minority. I admire the whole family for doing the right thing and if there are those who would do other wise I say shame, shame, shame.
Richard E. Ledford, Sr.

Here’s another perspective on Robert Stacy McCain’s opinion that the McCain campaign mishandled the story.

Let’s consider the alternative. The campaign announces Palin as the VP nominee and then apologetically (how else to put it?) also discloses her daughter is pregnant. The result is the same. The press behaves as expected and the rabid left-wing partisans light up their torches and remove the rust from their pitch forks.

Let’s take a look at how Sarah Palin was rolled out. The partisans and pitch forks came out as they would have in any other scenario. The Daily Kossacks (the public associates them with the Democrats) run wild with incredibly vile blogs and the MSM couldn’t resist but “report” on it with commenting that basically amounted to saying a woman’s place is in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. The speculation hits a fever pitch that Trig is not her baby. Then after that played out for a day or two the daughter’s pregnancy is announced to discredit the “smears” (this year’s word thanks to the Obama campaign). This forced an embarrassed Obama to reveal that his mother had him at 18 (that would make his mother how old at conception?). If he didn’t do that it would only be a matter of time (a day?) before McCain’s campaign framed that disclosure. Obama might have had more time to react before too much venom was wasted if it was handled any other way.

My first impulse was to liken this event to taking on al-Qaeda in Iraq by drawing them to us instead of the other way around. Although al-Qaeda took the bait they didn’t get reeled in right away because the public (Iraq and the MSM) was sympathetic to the terrorists.

No, this is more like a rope-a-dope. You’re watching the fight and you see Ali getting pounded. You’ve seen this before and you’re waiting. The spectators are behind the guy getting pounded. They’re waiting until the guy doing the pounding gets tired or puts on a rapid display of all his tricks and Ali gets tired of him. And then BAM! Down goes the opposition. But this time the MSM and their rabid relatives will punch themselves out and will take themselves down. It has pretty much already happened. No doubt they’ll come to and live to fight another fight. No doubt the same thing will happen no matter the subject or controversy.

This is twice in less than a week now that the McCain campaign has bested the MSM at their own game. First they played them by stoking the VP pick possibilities for over a week and then when it reached a fever pitch out came Sarah Palin right after the Denver convention. As an encore they then handle the pregnancy story after the Palin pick attacks have been thoroughly commented on. I think the McCain campaign knows what they’re doing and they demonstrated that in August.
Diamon Sforza
Bartlett, Illinois

I enjoyed Mr. McCain’s take on the nomination of Gov. Palin and the possible ramifications especially related to the revelation that her oldest daughter is pregnant and engaged. Indeed there is the possibility that this situation will be exploited be the late night comics, the comedy central dynamic duo, and hyenas on MSNBC to the benefit of the Obamessiah. It also could backfire on these clowns and their chosen candidate as they wallow in their own muck.

Millions of us have teenage children, millions of us are doing the best we can to raise our children to make the right decisions, millions of us face the consequences of children who make mistakes (just as we did). The likelihood that these clowns will overstep, overstate, and end up embarrassing themselves by insulting average Americans is huge as they condescend to us bible clinging, gun toting types.

Sarah Palin will be a positive in this election process, highlighting what it means to truly be an intelligent, strong, liberated woman and a leader.

Let the hyenas cackle, it’s what they do best.
Stuart Reed
Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan

“Strange as it seems in this time of war and economic crisis, the tale of a pregnant teenager could determine who will be the next Leader of the Free World.”

Thus the hazard to any politician whose teenage son or daughter could decide to go off the reservation. While the temptation may be overwhelming to blame his son or daughter’s “misbehavior” on some flaw in one’s opponent’s character, this is easily a sword that can swing back at you the day when your child spends a night in jail after an evening’s over exuberance.

In the case of Governor Palin’s daughter, it is difficult to see how any Democrat can capitalize on this. Far, far too many of us in America have had our domestic tranquility disturbed by a teenage daughter’s announcement of impending motherhood. There isn’t any such parent who doesn’t wonder what it was they had done or not done that lead to their daughter’s “mistake.” Eventually, most of us realized that whatever we had done wrong in raising our children, we didn’t choose our daughter’s mistake. She did.

After being upset and kicking the furniture for a few hours, the lion’s share of parents change gears, forgive, and make good from a bad decision. They keep their daughter in their home, they taken her to the doctor, ands much of the time they are there with her in the birthing room because lover boy in nowhere around. These parents do this because they still genuinely love their daughter; but they also do it because they love their grandchildren — even the grandchildren that they can’t see yet.

But, if anyone trashes on Palin, they risk running afoul the sympathy of thousands of parents who’ve been in her shoes. (Not to mention the thousands of women who had once been that scared teenager.) Life has a way of putting us in places we didn’t plan for and much of the time did not deserve. Those who try to score political points by pretending otherwise won’t make many friends.
Mike Dooley

Mr. Robert McCain completely misses the point. I, and most of middle America with teenage daughters understand and sympathize with Ms. Palin’s situation with her daughter. What is repugnant is what the mainstream media will do to push their partisan leftist agenda. Someone needs to ask them about Sen. Biden’s son, or Obama’s relationships with extreme leftists.

To quote Kristol who was pushing for Lieberman is laughable. Bill has long stopped representing the view of social conservatives. Do any of you pundits have a clue?

Mr. McCain, you and the press have crossed the line when you go after a seventeen year old to further your own positions. At the end of the day the comparison between Obama’s view on infanticide and Palin’s view of life will be interesting.
Bob Ross
Delafield, Wisconsin

Your article on Sarah Palin and her daughter is garbage.

It insults our intelligence.
Elvira F. Hasty

Re: W. James Antle III’s Bye Bye Bush:

It appears that your Mr. Antle agrees with our socialists and revolutionary Marxists in the Democrat Party when he complains of Bush’s performance over the last 8 years. If Bush had done nothing else but save us from that phony prophet of globaloney warming Gore, and from that phony war hero Kerry — it would have been a very much worthwhile effort. Bush was also the first to understand this new 100-year war against those Islamic medieval killers, and will in time receive the proper understanding. Undoing the careless presidency of that disbarred felon who thought the terrorism was a problem for left-wing judges was not a small feat either. Recession — what recession? The number of the employed today is still 5.6 million larger than 8 years ago. The growth of the GNP is still positive (3.3% up in the last quarter) in spite of all the negative talk by our Main Stream Media and Democrats. I find fault with Bush when he did not clean up our government departments from the 6,000 Clinton appointees still working hard to undermine this country; you remember all those leaks of sensitive intelligence about terrorists’ communications and money transfers?
Marc Jeric
Las Vegas, Nevada

The Republican Party and conservative movement will lose a real champion when George W. Bush leaves the White House. Antle nails it when he points out that Bush has been the only Republican President to work for national political realignment. While thoughtful conservatives like Quinn Hillyer warned that undercutting Bush was a recipe for disaster hiding behind a facade of “Reagan conservatism” too many conservatives drank the liberal Kool-aid reinvigorating Democrats. Had it not been for the conservative crack-up not only would the Democrats still be in the wilderness, but John McCain would be out in the cold. Unfortunately, the melt down was real and to stop the neo-Marxist messiah of appeasement and the Democrat old deal, McCain is now our only option. Thankfully, he has Sarah Palin on the ticket.

As President Bush leaves office he can look back on a successful Presidency despite failing to win the juvenile popularity contest that American’s make of the office (see Roger Kaplan’s opening paragraph in Hot French Summer TAS 9/2/2008). Here are just a few things Bush can be proud of — (1) reversing decades of cowardly indifference to Muslim terrorism. (2) He kept our country safe despite a near suicidal mentality among Americans, (3) in the tradition of Reagan he liberated enslaved Iraq and Afghanistan with a minimal cost in US military lives, (4) shepherding the economy out of the Clinton recession, despite a recent dip, his economy has never gone into recession and is now growing at a stunning 3%, (5) by implementing sound economic policies American incomes have made steady gains during his administration (in 2006-2007 alone while the public decided the nation was on the wrong track the median household income grew by 1.3% to a whopping $50,233.00), (6) without implementing universal “health care” the number of people without health insurance coverage declined during his administration from 47 million (15.8 %) in 2006 to 45.7 million (15.3 %) in 2007, (7) he is the only modern US President to never raise taxes, (8) without question he is the most pro-life President since Roe v. Wade, (9) he reduced the national poverty rate to 12.5%, (10) as Reagan’s heir he championed freedom politically and economically in the world, (11) unlike all his Republican predecessors back to Eisenhower he only appointed conservatives to the Supreme Court, (12) home ownership is at its highest level in US history, (13) foreclosures while up are below the all time Clinton high of 1997 and finally (14) he had the self-confidence to lead by principles and not poll numbers.

Hopefully, in 2012 when we’ve elected another conservative of the Reagan/Bush caliber the right will realize governing is important and we’ll stop treating our own so shabbily. Unfortunately, considering how quick many conservatives were to abandon Reagan until Ollie North saved his Presidency and they dumped on his heir George W. Bush it may be a long time before we see the right heeding the advice of Barry Goldwater and growing up.
Michael Tomlinson
Habbaniyah, Iraq

I want folks to stop worrying about a Republican convention and the fact it didn’t happen. Do your nominating and speaking and go home because the Convention was held, last Friday in the span of one hour for those of us in the homeland! We are pumped, energized, giving wildly, and McCain and Palin need only to give their acceptance speeches.

A very dear friend of mine said, “I am worried, she is just a soccer mom.” I look at my friend incredulously at first, then realized what had her concerned. My friend hadn’t heard Gov. Palin brag on herself and her accomplishments. I told my friend to remember when were children how we never told others about our own efforts, as that was called braggin’. We who were raised in hard ranch country were taught pride leads to a fall and that if you have done something great, either let your efforts speak for itself, or let others brag about you. This is important because Palin comes from a hard scrabble state. Alaska is to hardship and difficult living, as the Marine Corps is to deprivation. You have to love hardship to either join the Marines or live in Alaska. In both the Marines and Alaska life are unforgiving of missteps because they lead to death. Alaskans are like Marines. You have to love true hardship in order to be one.

We are ready for plain speaking. We are more than ready for a politician who identifies herself first, as a Soccer Mom. We know that her accomplishments will stand for her. She won’t need to list them. She knows right from wrong, good from bad, and knows to measure twice and cut once. She is everyman/everywoman. We are missing politicians who know how to use a plumb line to draw firm new measurements. For the first time in 30 years I heard a candidate speak firm truth. I am energized because I haven’t heard that since Ronald Reagan. I could care less that she is a woman. I could care less about her not having been to Washington or having foreign policy experience. The electorate is hungry for a truth speaking candidate. We heard one on Friday and know it.

Washington pundits saying she isn’t experienced doesn’t concern me. And I can say that being a mother who has repeatedly sent her only son to war. As my old Daddy said, “Find a discerning man (woman). They will surround themselves with like minded people.” I want a person who knows right when they see it. I want someone to stop speaking politically correct language and give me the truth, I can handle it. I want someone who goes after wrong and corrects it. This is what my son fights for. This woman knows a lie or BS when she hears it. Her finely tuned Mama meter will know if a politician or foreign diplomat is lying and catch them in it.

It has been a long time since Reagan came to town. Reagan is coming only this time her name is Sarah Palin.
Beverly Gunn

Re: Jeffrey Lord’s The Difference:

Mr. Lord’s excellent article on the differences between the two parties hit the nail on the head, but there are two corrections to be made: Col. Day was awarded the Medal of Honor, not the congressional Medal of Honor, as the former is its official name and no combat medal is ever “won” as there is no competition for them, so to use any variation of the word win, won, etc is very incorrect. Can the TAS style book reflect this in the future please?
David Menard
Retired Air Force NCO
Huber Heights, Ohio

Mr. Lord has framed as cogent an argument for the defeat of Obama as anyone could form. To add several simplistic nevertheless important differences between the two competing candidates, I would point out the tried and true saw that liberals believe government to be the solution while conservatives believe it to be the problem. Trite as it is, it is a direct hit on the truth.

A second simplistic but truthful statement is the liberal belief that a country can tax itself into prosperity. This is so obviously untrue, and there is so much evidence as to its untruthfulness, one must actually try to avoid believing it. My last addition to Mr. Lord’s trenchant statistical balance sheet is the liberal belief that it is the primary function of business and industry to employ, rather than to create profit. Because liberals fail to understand humanity, they fail to understand what motivates people and drives them to achieve. For liberals, achievement is a dirty word, a selfishness that must be punished with confiscation and redistribution of the fruits of the achievers’ labors. As Clinton put it, the people that he wanted to tax into poverty were “winners of life’s lottery.”

Finally, let us be truthful about Obama. He is a Chicago democratic ward heeler. That is all he ever has been regardless of how supposedly eloquent he is. And that eloquence seem to flee from him when he is asked a question and must answer extemporaneously. Little wonder he shies from debate.
Joseph Baum
Garrettsville, Ohio

Re: Lawrence Henry’s The Election So Far:

It is very true that my level of attention to the campaign has waxed and waned throughout the primaries and into the general election. When it started early last year, I mostly ignored it as it was way too early. From late autumn until the announcement of McCain as the nominee I paid pretty close attention, though my enthusiasm was lost after Thompson dropped out. Granted, when I first heard that Huckabee had adopted the Fair Tax into his platform, he sounded like The Guy to me. Then I learned what else he stood for and decided maybe not. And so, like many people, I wasn’t exactly enthused about McCain. I was going to be voting for him, as Obama or Clinton were simply unacceptable for my vote despite the historical implications. Don’t get me wrong, I like McCain’s tax plan, and I think he’s a good guy to fight corruption and waist.

The pick of Palin for Veep, however, was nothing short of inspired. For short term electoral success, he couldn’t have found a better choice. Smart, attractive, conservative, a great governor and a fighter of corruption. These are all great things. Her resume may be thin, but it’s better packed that Obama’s and she’s the bottom of the ticket, not the top. And for long term party building… well, just think if McCain does pull this off. The Republicans will be able to say that they were the first to have a female Vice President. And if McCain does a good job (which I think he will) and holds to one term (again, I think he will) we might just see Republicans with the first female President. And all without grievance mongering. Ah… now there’s Change I can really believe in.

I’ve said it for more than a year now, the Republican Party needs to start jettisoning dead, corrupted weight. There are too many in Washington and in state capitols around the country who are abusing their honored positions for personal gain. They have become corrupted and if the Congress is unwilling to do anything about it, it’s high time the Republican party did. The Republicans could find themselves going a lot further if they learned the real lesson of 2006. The American people, of all strips, will only put up with government increase and corruption for so long.
Charles Campbell
Austin, Texas

Re: David N. Bass’s And Along Came Palin:

David Bass expresses a bit of concern about Sarah Palin in the campaign crucible, as Bass calls it, especially against the blowhard Biden. Let’s hope that, in the October debate, Sarah Palin uses 30 seconds to reply to every quarter-hour of Biden bloviation.

Mr. Antle expresses concern about Palin’s lack of foreign policy experience. She may not know all of the player’s names, but I’ll bet she knows who Neil Kinnock is.
Dan Martin
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

First I read that much is unknown about Sarah Palin, her judgment, background and whether she lives as she talks. That sure sounds like a strong disqualification from holding any kind of office, public or otherwise. But then I read that I should support her anyway, regardless! Give me a break — these two positions do not go together, especially when the topic of the conversation might be the next but one President. Palin has the thinnest resume possible, she looks and talks like Harriet Miers (commanding the Alaskan National Guard for two years is not experience in managing national security and only a twit would pretend otherwise). Also, aren’t conservatives supposed to be the ones who don’t think it is a good idea for unmarried 17-year-old schoolgirls to get pregnant? Sure sounds like there is a problem with walking the walk with this one. Palin is on the ticket for five minutes and this pops out the cupboard! This looks not so much as a credibility gap as a warning of impeding disaster. Appointing Palin to the ticket is a classic case of sexism — a grossly unqualified woman appointed because she is a woman. Conservatives are supposed to oppose that as well.
Christopher Holland
Canberra, Australia

Re: P. Jacobs’s letter (under “Leg Tingles”) in Reader Mail’s Palin’s New Pals:

I suggest that you spend a couple of hours searching your bookshelves for a copy of the Bible — Old Testament, then spend a few minutes looking up Proverbs 31.

This whole chapter, devoted to a woman who was a wife, mother, businesswoman and influence on her community, blows your silliness away.
Anastasia Mather
Staten Island, New York

Sarah Palin’s 17-year-old daughter, Bristol, is unmarried and pregnant. To say this is embarrassing for the family values crowd is probably the understatement of this campaign season. But I must admit to being impressed by the right wing and GOP spinmeisters, both amateur and professional, who are working overtime to explain, justify, rationalize, obfuscate, misdirect and excuse. This could be “compassionate conservatism’s” finest hour! But wait. Do I hear a voice in the wilderness crying BS? Indeed, I do. Nobody’s pulling the wool over P. Jacob’s eyes. No sir. Wade in the murky water of moral relativism with those godless, valueless cultural Marxist instead of hewing to the straight and narrow and Jacob’s is going to call you on it. Well done, P. Jacobs.
Mike Roush

Re: Fred Edwards’s letter (under “By His Own Words”) in Reader Mail’s Palin’s New Pals:

Tell Fred to run his Clinton tape again — he missed the most obvious and long held tongue-in-cheek, after his compliment to McCain on his heroism and prison time in Vietnam. Panned the audience and thrust his tongue in cheek as if to say, “Ya’ll didn’t think I’d have the guts to bring up Vietnam, didja?”
Diane Smith

Re: Paul Chesser’s Goodbye Apathy:

If McCain/Palin are elected, HRC would have to watch another woman be sworn in as VP. That alone might get me to vote for McCain.
Bob Teter

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