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CNN Western GOP Debate Post-Mortem

By on 10.18.11 @ 11:07PM

Here are my thoughts concerning each of the candidates in the CNN Western Republican debate in Las Vegas which concluded earlier this evening.

Michele Bachmann - Every time she shouted, “Anderson! Anderson!”, it was reminder of how increasingly irrelevant she’s become in this race.

She had a downright bizarre moment when she spoke about “The Moms” who had lost their homes. It was as if she was trying to channel Oprah.

When Anderson Cooper asked her about the proposed $500 billion defense spending cut she talked about Iraq, Libya and Uganda. Cooper had to remind her of the question at hand. It was only then that she indicated that defense cuts were on the table. Why did she have such a difficult time answering the question?

Bachmann received her biggest applause of the night when she said that aid to Israel should not be cut.

But in the final analysis, I don’t think she helped herself much.

Newt Gingrich - As usual he put in a solid, sober performance. Aside from some testy moments with Romney over the individual mandate, Gingrich remained above the fray and provided insight on virtually every question put to him. He’ll climb up in the polls modestly but not enough to make a difference.

Rick Perry - His performance was a paradox. It was his best showing in the debates thus far and yet he brought out the worst in himself. He did hurt Romney over the question of hiring illegal immigrants but he also hurt himself.

His best moment came when he spoke about defunding the UN.

Unfortunately for Perry, I suspect a lot of people like him a lot less than they did a couple of hours ago.

Mitt Romney - It was his weakest performance to date. Gingrich, Perry and Santorum all managed to bloody him. In his past exchanges with Perry, Romney simply said “nice try” and moved on. Tonight, Perry got under his skin. He even brought up his support for Al Gore in 1988. Romney also seemed a little perturbed with Cain when he called Romney “a Wall Street executive” while describing himself as “a Main Street executive.” Despite his vast resources, Romney hasn’t been able to seal the deal with conservatives and he certainly didn’t do it tonight.

Herman Cain - He got the biggest applause of the night when he said he stood by his remarks concerning the Wall Street protesters. Even his comments over the weekend about an electrified fence got an affectionate laugh from the audience and his opponents.

With that said, Cain does have a weakness concerning questions of foreign policy and his answer with regard to exchanging Gitmo inmates for an American soldier was neither compelling nor convincing. In addition to boning up on foreign policy, if Cain does manage to win the nomination he would probably be wise to select a running mate with strong foreign policy credentials. How does a Cain-Gingrich ticket sound?Or how about Cain-Bolton?

Even though Cain got hit tonight he didn’t get bruised. Cain’s biggest strength is that people like him and it has taken him a very long way in this race and could take him further still.

Ron Paul - By far his best moment was his comment about Yucca Mountain and how the federal government has no right to, as he put it, “dump its garbage” in Nevada.

It should come as no surprise that he’s sympathetic to the Occupy Wall Street folks given that some of his supporters have aligned themselves with the socialists, communists and anarchists in New York and elsewhere. But does he honestly think the world owes people a living? That seems pretty unlibertarian to me.

Paul has a devoted core of support. But nothing in tonight’s performance (nor in any other) would suggest that he’s capable of attracting a broad base of support.

His greatest weakness? When Paul gets excited his voice rises into a piercing screech that can be heard by any dog within a two mile radius. It’s kind of screech that just doesn’t inspire confidence.

Rick Santorum - He was the enigma of this debate. At times, Santorum was brilliant. His best answer was to the question about faith and politics. Santorum said that voters should focus on a candidate’s “values” and “pay attention to those values and what faith teaches” while “the road to salvation was a whole different story.”

Now I understand that Santorum needs to gain traction and that requires a certain amount of assertiveness. It certainly wasn’t in short supply as he aggressively went after Romney and to a lesser extent Perry. Santorum landed a couple of punches on Romney on health care but for the most part he came across as self-absorbed and snarky and whatever damage he did to Romney came back on square on his head.

His worst moment came when he reminded people that he was the only candidate on the podium who ran and won as a conservative in a swing state. In so doing, he also reminded people that he was the only candidate on the podium who lost his Senate seat by nearly 20 points.

If Rick Santorum possessed half of Herman Cain’s sunny disposition, he would be a top tier candidate.

A Parting Thought - Jon Huntsman is as inconsequential when he’s in the debate as when he’s not in the debate.

I think Cain will gain on Romney, Gingrich might see some modest gains while Perry, Bachmann, Santorum and Paul will stay in neutral.

The next scheduled GOP debate will take place on November 9th at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan and will air on CNBC.

View all comments (86) |

jb| 10.18.11 @ 11:20PM

End foreign aid to Israel?
---------------------------
"My friends, you don’t need to do nation building in Israel. We’re already built. You don’t need to export democracy to Israel. We’ve already got it. You don’t need to send American troops to defend Israel. We defend ourselves."

~ Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,
May 2011 before the U.S. Congress

Clint| 10.18.11 @ 11:46PM

How Many Israeli IDF Troops Have been WIA & KIA In The War On Terror In Afghanistan & Iraq?

Answere : Zip.

The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.

Seth| 10.18.11 @ 11:47PM

Most "foreign aid" is merely an off-shoring of American wealth, a looting of America, and most of the money does indeed land in the hands of wealthy autocrats or nameless foreign bank accounts. Entire cargo planes loaded with pallets of freshly printed 100 dollar bills disappeared into Iraq, with no accounting or accountability. The sooner that Americans realize that foreign aid, foreign wars, and the Federal Reserve system that supports them, are scams, the better.

Jack in Wi.| 10.19.11 @ 1:05AM

Mr. Goldstein hates Ron Paul for one and only one reason. He would cut off Israel from America's teat. It would have to actually support itself. Ron Paul won the debate hands down. He was the only adult on stage who actually has a well thought out plan to get us out of the mess we are in. Perry has been a huge flop. Romney is disliked by most of the party. Cain is an amiable dunce who hasn't got a clue on anything except to do what his handlers tell him to do. He is Mr. TARP, Mr.Federal Reserve, Mr endless war, Mr. national salestax. That leaves old Gingrich to try his hand at it. He is quite intellegent but is a moral snake. He also has a big mouth which he likes to put his foot in. The only guy running who has a chance to get the number of Independents and conservative Democrats to win is Ron Paul. All the rest are DOA. No prowar, pro bailouts for the rich, Republican has a chance.

ktr| 10.19.11 @ 7:22AM

I agree that Mr Goldstein dislikes Ron Paul. How many federal depts do the other republican candidates want to get rid of to balance the nation's budget? It is ridiculous to compare him to the occupy wallstreet people. Paul wants to balance the budget and cut entitlement, not expand it.

Margaret| 10.19.11 @ 6:51PM

Israel doesn't need our aid unless it is attacked. We borrow 40% of what we spend so we borrow money to send it to Israel, Egypt, and others. Cut all foreign aid.

Bob| 10.18.11 @ 11:29PM

Cain-Gingrich ticket? They both live in Georgia dummy-unconstitutional. Cain's foreign policy...Dahhhh! Speaking of Georgia, Cain said the capital of Georgia, the other one was Savannah...Dahhhh! Cain now joins Michele as top tier candidates in the geography dunce club, international version.

Bob Grant| 10.18.11 @ 11:33PM

This is D-rate snark. Show us at least your B game or go back to Huffpo.

Aaron Goldstein| 10.18.11 @ 11:33PM

Gingrich presently lives in Virginia.

Bob Grant| 10.18.11 @ 11:41PM

Aaron,

Did it ever occur to you that Rick Santorum is usually the "enigma" because bloggers and journalists keep calling him one. It's either that or that he's a mystery because he can't find any traction.

It's almost as though you guys want to give him credit when he does well but not TOO much credit.

The truth is, he performed remarkably well and usually turns in a solid performance. I don't think his likability factor is an issue but you guys keep insisting it is.

Why not give the guy a break and just say he did well and should be considered a top tier candidate considering all of his solid performances?

Why must we cut the legs off a chosen few?

Seth| 10.18.11 @ 11:53PM

This is why you can't trust auto spell correct: you type one word that begins with an "en" and ends with an "ma" and instead you get another.

Margie| 10.19.11 @ 12:30AM

Because he didn't do that well, Bob.
He's a nice guy, but nice doesn't win wars OR elections.
Substance does.
It amazes me how the true demeanors of these candidates shows clearly in these debates.
Santorum reminded me of Perry with his childish snarkiness.
Herman Cain possesses not an iota of snark or immaturity, but only substance.
A man with a plan of his own, who wants to get it across to the people.
But he's just too conservative for some people, too down to earth, too real, too honest.
Yet, he's the Country Class candidate as far as I'm concerned.
Hey, if you've got a plan, present it guys, and quit blaming others for not having one!
And we ALL have our own opinions, don't we?
I'm expressing mine, sorry.
[sarc]. (That means sarcasm). In other words, I ain't sorry!

Margie| 10.19.11 @ 12:48AM

Sarah Palin agrees. We want substance, not bickering:

http://www.realclearpolitics.c.....ebate.html

Houston_Psych| 10.19.11 @ 3:28AM

Who cares what Sarah Palin thinks?

Margaret| 10.19.11 @ 6:53PM

Sarah had her chance in 2008 and didn't do well, then she quit her Governor job to cash in. She is an opportunist. At least she is smart enough not to run.

Margie| 10.19.11 @ 8:22PM

I knew you were despicable, and should have known you're a lame Paul-bot Troll!

Margaret| 10.19.11 @ 9:23PM

You are stupid. Criticizing Palin makes one a Ron Paul supporter? I like Cain, moron. Where did you come up with an idiotic name like Paul-bot?

KennyG| 10.18.11 @ 11:45PM

Newt lives in Virginia? Fascinating! Lets see now he was born and raised in Pa. Lived most of his adult life in Ga and represented that state and now has the banner Newt Gingrich (R-Va). Sounds like Romney moving around state to state, Mich., Mass., Ca., NH (for the primary) and Utah (that makes sense).

not2bad| 10.18.11 @ 11:34PM

Aaron Goldstein you say (about Ron Paul) that he honestly think the world owes people a living? That seems pretty unlibertarian to me. That's baloney and you know it. He says many are victims of government intervention in the markets through no fault of there own. Shrill? Bachmann make me cringe when she speaks, Romney could talk about himself for hours and each time change the story he is telling, if I hear 999 one more time I'm going to scream in a shrill way. Ron owned the debate despite CNN leaving him out of the post debate analysis. His answers are blunt, factual, and to the point but more importantly straight on. The other candidates now echo a lot of his views and their mouths hang open when he answers questions. Saw no one challenging him tonight. He's the ONLY one to vote . The correct choice.

SassyFrass| 10.18.11 @ 11:39PM

Shrill? Bachmann make me cringe when she speaks,

Yikes can you imagine the double dose of shrill of a Paul/Bachmann ticket? It would be time to invest in hearing protectors.

Bob Grant| 10.18.11 @ 11:51PM

'Frass,

No worries, both jumped the shark tonight so that nightmare scenario, thankfully, will never take place.

Seth| 10.18.11 @ 11:37PM

Romney let a vainglorious Texas Aggie drag him down into the gutter, where he than deigned to lecture the ruffian on manners in front of a national television audience. It was positively embarrassing and hardly "presidential." There was nothing here for Romney to win "raves" about, just a Blue Blood showing how shallow his breeding is. It was Romney's worst performance to date and Perry showed to the world just how easy it would be for a Putin or Ahmadinejad to get Romney's goat.

buckeyeman| 10.19.11 @ 11:29AM

So Perry faulted Romney for not vetting the lawn care company's employees (damn near called him a liar) and then wouldn't let Romney speak. What was Romney to do. I had pinned a lot of my hopes on Perry and they're all dashed. His strong conservatism can't overcome this petty, snarky ankle biting. Sure, Perry splashed some mud on Romney's spats, but again, what was Romney supposed to do?

Clint| 10.18.11 @ 11:52PM

Obviously, The RINO-CINO Propagandists Don't Wanna Get It.

We Tea Party Patriots & Our Tea Party Co-Favorite Presidential Candidate Dr.Ron Paul Protest The FED, TARP, The Q-E's, The Stimulus, FNMA FHLMC .


The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.

Mike | 10.18.11 @ 11:57PM

Mr. Goldstein,

A concise, accurate assessment of the respective performances.

Chris Christie knew he was not ready to run. Too bad Rick Perry doesn't have Christie's wisdom. He is embarrassing himself.

Cain is foundering. He appears unable to explain his economic plan and is clueless about foreign policy.

Ron Paul - ever notice how Republicans no longer talk about term limits. It's amazing how long Paul has hung around an institutions he professes to dislike so much.

9thID| 10.19.11 @ 10:52AM

I almost hate to admit that I agree with Goldstein's assessments, but he was spot on -- especially when it comes to Ron Paul. If Paul wants to do something constructive before he steps down from power, as he promised, he could run as Liber-tarian again to pull Liber-al votes from Obama...

RJ| 10.19.11 @ 12:24AM

I was disappointed in the debate tonight. I thought Gingrich and Cain were OK, but the others weren't good. Conventional wisdom (which is often wrong) would have Romney and Perry as the two top candidates, but they don't look up to the job (Perry still has time to convince me). The alternatives then become Gingrich and Cain. I expect Cain's inexperience will catch up to him. So who knows, if Perry doesn't get better, the ball may go to Gingrich. I just see Romney as another Bob Dole.

Clint| 10.19.11 @ 12:26AM

Ever Notice How Long The Occupiers Are Hanging Around Institutions They Profess To Hate So Much, Micky ObamaGirl.

Mike| 10.19.11 @ 8:57AM

Clint,

Must you be such a c*^ t?

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 2:55PM

Mike:

yes, he must be dificult. You see, his father noted a beautiful Black Lab running down a car one day and immediately fell in love, chasing her down. Clint is the offspring of that Zoophilic match.

That being said, you have him pegged wrong. He isn't a c*&t; he's a son of a bitch.

Margaret| 10.19.11 @ 6:55PM

You are sick. You actually think of these and then write it? You've sunk beneath Clint.

Margie| 10.19.11 @ 8:23PM

Another Paul-bot Troll. Are you Clint's sister?

Margaret| 10.19.11 @ 9:25PM

You know who I am. Think (I know it is hard for you)
What are you Occam's pet attack dog? He can't respond for himself?

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 1:16AM

My two cents, and I have to say, I'm pissed off:

If Cain can't explain his own 999 proposal better than to accuse those who criticize it as not understanding it, he's done. Sorry. He doesn't look like HE understands it. I love his attitude, his demeanor, his common sense approach. Too bad he doesn't look like he actually knows anything about anything. I mean, here's Herman Cain on how to cure cancer. Ready? 1) Find a really good scientist; 2) pay him to discover a cure; 3) make this cure available to everybody who may get cancer. Voila! Next problem?

Santorum: Very good mind. Very crappy personality. Americans do not elect whiny, argumentative types as president. Santorum comes off as the guy who's had two too many at the bar and is looking for a fight. I think he's capable, but he's done. Americans will not elect a loud jerk as president.

Bachmann: Some ok answers, but she is now officially irrelevant. There's something incredibly inagile about her. I kind of like her, but I'm beginning to think her mind is incapable of grasping anything more complex than a focus group-tested nostrum. And why she thinks repeating that line about making Obama a one-term president over and over and over and over and over again is going to get her elected president truly mystifies me. I would point out to Michelle that, just because Obama may not get reelected, that does not mean, ipso facto, that she will be.

Newt: Newt is Newt. A one-trick pony. Some smart answers - Romney did make him stumble when he threw the individual mandate back at him. But, fortunately for this country, Newt will never, ever be president. Because he is NOT a true conservative. He is a policy opportunist.

Paul: As usual, Paul says some really, really good things - and some really, really foolish things. And he's 76 years old. Anyone who thinks he's going to be president is as delusional as our resident whack job, Clint, who thinks repeating "the tea party rebellion is here" is the political equivalent of The Wizard of Oz's Dorothy repeating "there's no place like home" and clicking her heels to make all right with the world. Paul is not the political equivalent of ruby slippers, and choosing to ignore reality doesn't make it go away. Paul will be gone in three months. Don't worry, Paul acolytes, there's always 2016!

Perry: For the love of god, get Perry off the national stage. Please. I'm serious. I can't take it anymore. Put him in a room somewhere with duct tape over his mouth until after the election is over. It is painful to watch this hapless boob at this point. I cut him a ton of slack on the first debate. And even on the second debate. Now, however, it is impossible to escape the conclusion that the man is a sheer IDIOT. All of the zingers he appears to have up his sleeve turn out to be grenades that go off in his own hand, drawing only his own blood. He may have raised some money, and he may, somewhere that is impossible for human eyes to detect, be a competent person, but, after these debates I just want him to go away forever and maybe find someone to dress him and feed him and pat him on the head now and then. He makes George Bush look like William Shakespeare, Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill rolled into one.

Romney: Like it or not - and I don't - he's the GOP nominee in 2012. End of story. Just what this country needs - Another ostensible Republican who believes in "compassionate conservatism" and that government really can solve every problem.

Well, at least he won't get his hair mussed as the country collapses around him.

Houston_Psych| 10.19.11 @ 3:31AM

Agreed. On every single point.

Pecos Pete| 10.19.11 @ 7:03AM

GRZ: Well said. Your analysis is the best I have read anywhere. And, I agree with you. Sadly, the Republican candidates make me wonder if any of them will be able to turn the USA around.

On the other hand, any of them should be able to defeat King O. I would vote for any of them rather than King O.

Casey Abell| 10.19.11 @ 8:35AM

Mostly agree, disagree some. Let's run down the list...

Cain. I'm starting to think this guy doesn't know anything. I mean, zip, zero, nada, none. After a while - like a couple minutes - being sunny and repeating the number nine doesn't make it. Mostly agree here but you're being too gentle with him due to ideology. Aaron's sweetness toward him is completely ridiculous.

Santorum. He's not the drunk in the bar who wants to fight. He's the sober guy who won't shut up. Irritating as hell.

Bachmann. She's trying to be nice instead of goofy. That's a start. And she does know more than Cain, but so do you and I. At least she didn't start some weird blabbering about vaccines. But she's finished and probably knows it.

Newt. Smartest guy in the roon, best debater in the room, and crushed under a Great Pyramid sized load of personal baggage. But I hope he hangs around the debates just for fun. And it will help him with the next TV contract.

Paul. Somehow I get the feeling he don't like Israel. And he don't like the Fed. He don't like most everything that's happened in the world over the past four centuries.

Perry: He really wasn't that bad. In fact, he was up for it at the start of the debate and looked like he might pull off a comeback. But then he got nasty with Romney and went off the rails. Started stumbling around again. But overall he did improve, just not nearly enough to get back in the race.

Romney. Your evaluation is strictly ideological. The blunt fact is that Romney has been doing this for a while and knows how to slip the punches. And tonight he actually looked more human. He won the debate. You know it and I know it. And by the way, the country won't collapse. Forget the apocalypse chatter. Robert Stacy McCain already tries it around here and it looks pretty laughable.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 10:00AM

First off, Perry went from being laughable to being pathetic. Ok, I guess that's an improvement.

Romney did win the debate. And yes, he's improved as a debater; he's very, very slick. No question. He's also a "big government Republican" with absolutely no true conservative orientation. His track record proves that. He will do what every politician does once he's in office: he will kick the can down the road and hope the whole rotten edifice doesn't come down on his watch. But it will.

Because the country will collapse; in case you haven't noticed, we've been in an accelerated death spiral since 2008.

We borrow $200 million every hour of every day, 365 days a year. That is simply unsustainable for a number of reasons. And even the feckless GOP is only nibbling around the edges of that. Paul's plan to cut $1 trillion is a good start - but he'll never be elected.

Given that the cravenness of our politicians is an irreduceable factor, there is only one way out of our situation, and every government that has found itself at this juncture has resorted to it: Print money. Debauch the currency. We've been doing that since 2009. All of that cash is sitting in limbo right now, but when inerest rates go up - as they must and that money is released, we'll be awash in worthless dollars (and, even now, the dollar is only worth 60% of what it was in 1900).

I ask you, how are we going to get out of this when everybody agrees, tacitly or overtly, that even with the crushing debt we have, the government STILL must continue to grow? The fact is, we have taken leave of our senses. We have become Blanche Dubois, choosing to look at the world through the gauze of pure fantasy.

Every hegemon eventually collapses. Like Rome, we have permeable borders, our army is spead too thin, the populace is being cynically bought off with bread and circuses, we are inflating the currency, we rely on the kindness of foreigners to continue to fund our never-ending binge on the cuff, and we have enveloped our culture in a cocoon of distracting decadence.

Show me ONE example in history where this has not happened, and then maybe I'll put stock in what you say.

By the second half of 2013, I suspect you'll agree with me.

Casey Abell| 10.19.11 @ 10:44AM

By the second half of 2013 the country will still be plugging along. Yes, we're in a cyclical downturn. It's nowhere as deep and grim as the 1930s or other depressions which periodically wracked the country in the 19th century.

We'll survive, decadence and all. And by the second half of 2013, I suspect you'll agree with me. Hey, we'll probably both still be on this site and can compare notes!

As for the debate, well, I've had my say.

Casey Abell| 10.19.11 @ 11:02AM

Russ likes to track Intrade around here, and Perry actually improved a bit with the debate. Not much, he's only up to a 14.8% chance for the nomination, a distant second to Romney's 65.9%. Cain's third at 8.0%, down during the debate. Nobody else is on the chart.

Considering Cain's position in the polls, he looks like a buy at these levels. I don't think much of his chances, but I bet you could sell the shares some time in the future for a gain. Call it a Cain gain, and hope it dodges the 9-9-9 tax.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 11:35AM

Actually, I don't think it's cyclical. This is not a business cycle phenomenon; this is a fiscal policy gone utterly insane, a metastasized cancer, and I think it's far, far worse than it was in the 1930s. Our economic base is far different now, we are a massive, sclerotic welfare state that borrows 40% of everything we spend. More than half the country is on the dole in one way or another.

Our debt puts us at the mercy of our creditors, who are all on shaky ground themselves, fiscally speaking. When the spigot is cut off, what is the logical conclusion?

Seriously, how are we going to get out of this? I'd like to know. By increasing productivity? Not bloody likely in any meaningful way. Increasing revenues? How, with an aging and dwindling population? By cutting entitlements? We've already seen that no politician has the courage to do that in any way that's going to change our trajectory. Through opening our borders completely to allow new suckers to get in on the Ponzi scheme that is our nanny state? Well, that is the harbinger of a very different America, just as occurred in Rome, when foreigners attained critical mass in the army and the center collapsed.

Yes, we will exist when 2014 rolls around. But we will be a vastly different country. We won't be number one, and once the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency, other countries will not have an incentive to prop us up.

Our standard of living will be a shadow of what it is now, and Obama and his goons will have succeeded in destryoing the middle class.

You can say Greece still exists - but it's on life support. Our fall will be more precipitous.

I hope you are right but, with all due respect, just asserting that what has always been will continue to always be - with no supporting reasons as to why - is not plausible. Particularly given the fate of every single empire that has preceded us. We will collapse, and for the same reason every other empire has collapsed.

Bob Grant| 10.19.11 @ 8:38AM

Grizwald,

I generally agree with your assessment of the debates but I think you went a little easy on Michelle.

She completely jumped the shark last night (or, as she put it, "her cake is baked". WTF???) as her desperate attempts for attention were simply too embarrassing to tolerate anymore. I'm done rooting for her. She needs to go back to the House where she's needed.

I don't think, however, you gave Santorum enough credit for giving substantive answers on the social and foreign policy questions. His answers demonstrate a depth of knowledge that should propel him closer to top-tier candidate status. You should give him a second look.

Regarding Cain, I agree that his defense of his 999 plan is unacceptable. Telling people to go to his website and work the numbers for themselves is foolish for someone considered a top-tier candidate. He needs a good political adviser.

Cain's a top-tier candidate but not Santorum? Come on!

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 9:03AM

Bob:

Perhaps I should have been harder on Michelle, but I believe she's been irrelevant for a few weeks. She's had moments where he's impressed, but she tends to speak in catch phrases and, as I say, I no longer think there's a sophisticated mind behind the catch phrases. And I agree, listening to her shout "Anderson! Anderson" was painful. Particularly when, once she got the floor, all she did was repeat that cringe-inducing catch phrase about making Obama a one-term president. She's toast.

I think Santorum is very capable, I really do. But he's an angry person who cannot control his anger; he's downright unpleasant. America will not elect an angry guy with a chip on his shoulder. It will not happen.

I no longer think Cain is a top-tier candidate. His moment passed last night. I'm sorry, I like Cain a lot in terms of general temperament, and I think he's got a great story. But there is absolutely no "there" there in terms of understanding of policy.

Solo| 10.19.11 @ 9:58AM

Good analysis, Grz!
It is, once again, a sad state of affairs.
That having been said, however, any one of these candidates would be a distinct improvement over Obama...or any democrat for that matter. But....it looks so far like the nominee is going to be Romney. After all...he's been at this game for about 8 years now, so his skills are pretty well honed. Too bad!

The only up-side to a Romney Presidency, in my view, would be that he is "pliable" enough that a strong conservative leadership in Congress will accomplish our goals just as well, if not better, than a strong conservative President with a weak-kneed Congress looking to preserve their modest gains.

But...if Boehner and McConnell remain in charge: Look Out! Because all we're going to get is "Obama-Light" with a slight tweaking at the edges for the next 4 years.

We all seem to be waiting for the next Reagan to emerge. There isn't one waiting in the wings this time around. We need to adjust our strategy accordingly.

W| 10.19.11 @ 8:46AM

G-man

You have said it all, nothing to add, except a small defense of Cain. Any major tax prosal will invite many questions since the current code is so complex. Cain needs better answers.
Cain can be VP.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 9:13AM

True, W, but when he's asked about his own, far simpler plan, he's got to know something about it. Whenever he describes 999, he sounds like a guy making a book report on a novel he hadn't read. He clearly has no clue about economics, and I think he's fine with that. Nobody - particularly a presidential candidate - should be comfortable in his or her ignorance. Well, except, of course, Barack Obama, who believes that facts just sully the glorious purity of theoretical ideology.

And Cain's Gitmo answer earlier - jaw-dropping. At least he walked that back. Earlier this year he didn't know what "right of return" was. Then, last Sunday, he revealed on Meet the Press that he didn't know what a neo-conservative was.

What the hell is he doing with his down time? Crossword puzzles?

W| 10.19.11 @ 10:24AM

Sir G
One issue that hasn't been discussed is Cain's health. He was treated for cancer, but we should know how the status.

Not to pick on Santorum since he will not be the nominee, but the more I see him the less I like him. I voted three times for his as Senator but he was never this annoying. He has no chance of winning but acts like a bomb thrower trying to kill Romney, Cain, Perry and anybody else who has a better chance. To say Romney has no credibility on health care is plain stupid.

Santorum has baggage which nobody has yet brought up. When he was Senator he resided with his family in DC and he owned a small house in suburban Pgh. He had the Penn Hills School District pay for his childrens's cyber school in DC. Now this may be legally ok because he owned the house in Penn Hills and paid school tax there, but he did not reside in Penn Hills. If he was a major candidate this would come up. He comes across as a sanctimonius annoying brat.

Romney has good research on everyone. He told Newt that he supported the individual mandate, which is in Obamacare,. Newt first denied it but then admitted it when Romney said Newt approved it in a Heritage article. Newt has written so many articles, given so many seeches, that he has probably been for and against every issue.

I agree Cain needs better preparation. Perry is just awful, not prepared, desperate. So what if a Mexican kid was cutting Mitt's lawn as an employee of some landscaper? At least the kid was working and not getting in state tuition in Texas courtesy of Perry. Romney should have said, "Where is your heart, Governor Perry, this poor kid was working."

W| 10.19.11 @ 10:26AM

P.S. Huntsman had his best showing last night.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 12:07PM

Agree with you on every point, W.

Yup - nobody talks about Cain's cancer, but it IS an issue, no question.

I wish Santorum had a more user-friendly interpersonal style, but he started out poorly on that front and has gotten worse. I actually liked him in the beginning - now, every time he opens his mouth, I cringe.

Romney's going to be the nominee - and I agree with what others have said - he'd be a damned sight better than Obama. After all, he doesn't hate America and want to destroy the bourgeoisie like Obama and his goons do, so that's a plus.

The problem, I think, is that Romney is a typical politician - the key to success for any politician is to hand out more goodies than the other guy. That's America today. that's the expectation of the electorate. And, despite what many say, we still dance to the tune that is played by the Marxists liberal media. Romney won't change any of that.

However, since I'm pretty sure that the bottom is going to drop out of our economy completely on the watch of the next president, Romney (or whomever is elected) is going to have to deal with a crisis that makes what we've gone through so far seem like a walk in the park.

The die is already cast. Can Romney manage an America coming apart at the seams? Looks like we're going to find out. . .

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 3:21PM

Mr. G: The solution is going to be dropping taxes desperately and cutting government (except for defense) to the bone. In addition, it is time that balance billing on Medicare is allowed, as this will allow MDs to make assessments on who can, and who cannot, afford to pay their bill in full, and thus allow for more charity care (I did lots of charity care as a small town doc in 'Bama in the 90s.).

The other solution is to adopt NZ's immigration plan, and set up brutal borders with Mexico---and stop paying for illegals' schooling and health care---they don't deserve it and we CAN'T afford it.

Finally, we should look at winning our wars with the Islamic world in a less labor intensive way. Boots on the ground allow for winning hearts, minds, etc. It also allows for minimization of casualties to "civilians." I would argue that we need to eliminate concern for collateral damage---not necessarily target civilians, but not care so much if they are hit---and take out some scum from the air---Iran would be an excellent country to destroy from the air and make an example of.

We rebuilt and democratized Germany and Japan after pulverizing both countries from the air---and Iran is much closer to [WWII] Japan than Germany in terms of civilization buildup. Destroy them and do not rebuild until they come crawling in surrender.

THAT would allow for much retrenchement in defense. Retrenchment while leaving one's enemies intact is lunacy.

Margie| 10.19.11 @ 2:01PM

What Cain SAID was if anyone wants to know the TRUTH about his plan to go and read it themselves, as everyone on the stage was attempting to misrepresent it.
What's wrong with that?

Trinacria| 10.19.11 @ 12:40PM

GRZ,

Strong analysis; agree across the board. One exception:

"Americans do not elect whiny, argumentative types as president." Recent history (VERY recent) would suggest otherwise...

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 2:59PM

Well, I hope we elect Santorum, then. He's a good mind, and a good man.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 3:16PM

Ha! That actually occurred to me - except that Obama was billed by our scrupulous mainstream media as the great uniter, a statesman posessed of unparalleled debating skills, unflappable, wise, sanguine, intellectually superior to mere mortals - as Newsweek put it (literally), a god among men.

It was only after he had begun his Marxist revolution upon being sworn in that his now-trademark whining and fingerpointing began - and, even though it has become obvious to all but the thickest of Americans (which, sadly, is almost all liberals) that Obama is an utterly vapid, vacuous, ideologically blinkered, petty, petulant, angry, ignorant adolescent, the mainstream media STILL ignore it.

What a piece of work, huh? If Obama were just an average Joe off the street, I wouldn't hire him for an entry-level position in a convenience store.

Truly.

W| 10.19.11 @ 3:57PM

Trinacria,
Who do you like for P and VP

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 2:58PM

Mr. G: superb points, as usual. But Cain may be better than you think.

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 3:10PM

Again, with the exception of Paul, who would be like electing Clint to the Presidency, every one of the fellows/ladies on that stage would have my vote and my monetary support for President.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 3:20PM

Maybe, Occam. I was leaning toward Cain until last night. But come on, it's pretty obvious that he's out of his element discussing economics, and he's made some cringe-inducing faux pas.

Temperamentally, I still like him a lot. But, as Casey Stengel (I think) once said, what he doesn't know about policy could fill a book.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 3:23PM

BTW, I agree - anybody up there would be better than Obama. Unfortnately, though, what we need is greatness - not sure anyone measures up.

I hope I'm wrong!

Occam's Tool| 10.19.11 @ 3:23PM

Sure. But I think we're agreed that if Cain were nominated, we would support him. Mr. G.

By the way, beautiful writing and argumentation. I'm taking notes. (I'm still trying to work in the phrase "as effective as a marshmallow condom" into an argument right now, though. Hmmmm....)

W| 10.19.11 @ 3:53PM

G,
Cain made a mistake by proposing a 9% corporate income tax. It should be Zero because the tax is paid by consumers of the corp's products and by shareholders in decreased dividends.

The 9% corp tax left him open Bachman's charge that it is a value added tax that is imposed on a corp's profit on products when sold, even to another corp that uses that product in its product, such as a manufacturer selling a windshield to Ford. Cain could not answer Bachman's charge, and she ought to know since she is a tax attorney.

His plan would be easier to explain if it was simply a flat income tax on individuals and/or a sales tax of consumer purchases. Steve Forbes had this idea of a 17% flat income tax but nobody was paying attention to him when he ran.

Clint| 10.19.11 @ 1:39AM

Tell Your RINO-CINO Propaganda To Rush, Grizwacker.

"Rush Limbaugh on Ron Paul’s ‘Restore America’ Plan: ‘A Good Idea’

Rush Limbaugh, host of “The Rush Limbaugh Show,” likes Texas Congressman and GOP candidate Ron Paul’s “Restore America” plan. Paul presented his “Restore America” plan at a press conference in Las Vegas, Nevada on Monday. Paul’s “Restore America” plan calls for $1 trillion in spending cuts, the elimination of 5 cabinet departments and the abolishment of the TSA among other changes to the federal budget.

“Ron Paul has a good idea,” Limbaugh said on his radio show in response to a caller’s question about how Republicans should deal with the debt crisis if they take back the White House in the 2012 presidential race."

The tea Party Rebellion Steps On Grizwacker's Face.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 8:53AM

You are mentally ill, dude.

The whack job is here, and his name is Clint.

martin j smith| 10.19.11 @ 7:33AM

Thes best news about this debate that I have heard is that Finally,Finally Romney got his. He is now better exposed for his weak policies that could make him far from the ideal candidate.
Basically voters have a better idea of who is who and thus the selection process has improved but it has a long way to go.

Bob K.| 10.19.11 @ 8:07AM

Romney was exposed long ago. Since then it has all been about covering up for him and confusing the issues and making targets out of the people opposing him. Exactly the reason for these debates and these blog columns on the internet like this one by Mr. Goldstein. "Despite his vast resources, Romney hasn't been able to seal the deal with conservatives ......... ." He won't either. Count on it Mr. Goldstein.

It will all be out in the open again when he is nominated. The liberal media which is anointing him now will be all over him like stink in a pig sty at that time.

If there aren't enough voters out there willing to hold their noses and vote for him over Obama and the Reagan Democrats decide to sit this election out he will lose like McCain did.

Maybe there is something to those ravings about the Republican Party wanting to lose this election so our totally ruined economy and foreign policy will clearly be blamed on the Democrats?

JimH| 10.19.11 @ 7:58AM

Maybe somebody knows this. Does Perry have some sort of physical problem? He holds himself rather stiffly, almost as if he is in a corset and it conveys an odd body language.

Casey Abell| 10.19.11 @ 8:18AM

Perry did have back surgery over the summer but it should be pretty well healed by now. But he knows he's not nearly as good a debater as some other guys in the room, and that shows up in the body language.

Bob Grant| 10.19.11 @ 8:52AM

Yes, a very odd posture.

It's way too stiff.

Kind of a Texas Cocky on Steroids look with his stiff posture and chest puffed out. Unfortunately, it plays right into that stereotype of him.

As much as I like him as Governor, admittedly, he's been a big mess on the campaign trail. Some days he's ok, but most he's been a disaster. We simply cannot afford to have that in the general. the stakes are too high.

I'll give Romney credit for being consistently adequate on the campaign trail which should be enough to beat the Dictator in the general.

Ken (Old Texican)| 10.19.11 @ 1:04PM

Bob,
never had back surgery have you?

Stefan Stackhouse| 10.19.11 @ 9:57AM

In the course of just two months I've gone from thinking that Perry looked good on paper, to thinking that he doesn't sound good live, to really disliking the guy. I must now say that out of all the candidates, I dislike Perry the most. So much so that if he is the nominee, I may start thinking about casting a write-in vote. I'm sure he is a good governor for Texas, so please send him back where he belongs.

Bachman, Santorum, Gingrich & Paul are all sideshows, along with Huntsman (who they might as well have joined as no-shows). None of them are going to be the nominee, and we all know it.

That leaves Romney and Cain. I'm still watching and keeping an open mind. Neither has close the deal yet for me. I like Cain as a person, I really do, and think that there is more substance there than some critics are saying. Romney? Blah! Yet, he does seem to have a Presidential gravitas that the others all lack, and on paper his qualifications match up with my ideal candidate. Many of you would say that he is not a principled conservative, but rather a flip-flopper, and I would pretty much concur with that. I still would consider Romney to be a considerable improvement over the present occupant of the White House, though.

It is still early, we've got months yet. I see little reason to pay much attention to anybody except Cain and Romney at this point, though.

martin j smith| 10.19.11 @ 10:33AM

There is something fishy about the way Establishment Republicans behave towards their opposition almost like turning the other cheek when slapped on one side. What troubles me is that this crowd is willing to make deals with anyone and is not at all supportive of Free Market Capitalism. Its Crony Capitalism they support.

Stu in AK| 10.19.11 @ 11:15AM

If Perry could string a single coherent sentence together and speak of accomplishes and not "gotcha" snarks (weak) at Mitt he may get somewhere. I cringe at the thought of Obama mopping the floor with him at EVERY point at EVERY debate. Perry is a no go.

Paul McGrath| 10.19.11 @ 12:23PM

Griz,

I am pretty much in agreement with all of your comments, and laughed out loud when you stated that all of Perry's grenades blow up in his hand. He has gone from front-runner to nobody in six short weeks.

I also agree that Romney will be our boy, but I don't think he will be as bad as many here think. The problem is that conservatives were so disillusioned by the pathetic George Bush that we have wrongly concluded that anybody who isn't the reincarnation of Ronald Reagan will be just like him. No Republican, none, can POSSIBLY be as bad as George Bush.

Romney? Of course we could do better from a pure ideological standpoint. But from a combination of ideology and electability, he has to be our guy. And as to the number one issue facing America--our burgeoning, unsustainable debt--he seems to get it.

Can he do anything about it in time? It's going to be a close call. Extremely drastic, unpopular steps will have to be taken immediately. Is Romney up to it? Well, he must know--he MUST--how dire the situation is.

Wow. Think about it. Romney--Romney--is our only hope. Yike.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 1:03PM

Some men are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them, as Shakespeare said.

Romney had damned well better fall into one of those categories, or it's lights out. Personally, I don't think he will. I think he's a big government guy and he'll continue to look for big government solutions to the problem of big government.

To Ken below: Nobody was more hopeful than I when Perry entered the race. Maybe he is a swell governor. But, my god, we cannot elect another governor from Texas who can't put two sentences together. Americans will not do that. And Perry makes Bush look eloquent and articulate. I'm sorry - I know debates aren't the whole picture of a man - but you simply cannot survive if you look like an absolute moron every single time you open your mouth in every debate.

It is AGONY to watch the man implode over and over again. He starts a sentence and gets utterly lost about three words in. And he simply has no well-thought out, well-rehearsed comebacks for the stuff thrown at him. He's flailing so badly that it is literally uncomfortable to sit through.

Maybe you can shed light on this - what the hell is going on with him? Is he subconsciously sabataging himself? Cuz he's approaching overkill at this point.

Ken (Old Texican)| 10.19.11 @ 12:35PM

Yeah,
"send Perry back to Texas where he belongs."

We here in Texas will love it! He is doing a fine job.

Dan Phillips| 10.19.11 @ 1:10PM

Aaron, Ron Paul does not think the world owes people a living, and you know it. Part of the problem with our modern political debate is that it is too dichotomous and lacks nuance. (This serves the purposes of the powers that be that want to maintain the status quo, btw.) The OWS protesters are mostly leftists and mostly have demands that are pro-big government and pro-intervention into the economy, but they are right to a certain extent about the problem, big money and big government are in bed together and times are tough for the working man. Real conservatives should understand that the current corporatist status quo is part of the problem, and a real conservative candidate should express sympathy for some of the concerns of the protesters without endorsing their solutions. But if one does some defender of the current dichotomy will say he is in bed with liberals. This is silly and counterproductive.

Ken (Old Texican)| 10.19.11 @ 1:21PM

GRZ
The comment above was not addressed to you. Did you see my rather long post above?

Sir, everyone on that stage KNOWS that Perry is the only conservative candidate to beat.

His very best line was in the first debate when he chuckled and said: "Wow! I feel like the pinata at the party."
GRZ, that has not changed. You won't see Newt disparaging Rick. He respects the heck out of him.

You won't see Mr. Cain disparaging Rick. He too respects the heck out of him....and it is mutual.

Rick did all right last night. No home-runs...against fellow Republicans. I kinda' appreciate that.
All the other candidates live a LOOOOONG way from the border, so they can throw stones from the peanut gallery.
I'm going to youtube now to give you a glimpse of Rick at his best. Be right back.

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 2:41PM

I'll take a look, Ken, but I do not think he did well last night, and he's what, 0 for 4 now?

I know many disagree with me, but I thought that stuff with Romney and the lawn was ridiculous, and his odd combativeness didn't have the effect - on me, anyway - that I think he was going for. The same with Santorum, when he tried to bully Romney. They both looked like they were filibustering belligerently.

I don't know - I just think Americans won't elect a guy who can't think on his feet well enough to string two cogent sentences together.

MGM | 10.19.11 @ 2:07PM

I completely disagree with your assertion that Romney is weaker after last night's performance. His wannabes try to gang up on him, calling him untruthful, yet he shoots them down with facts (Perry about the silly notion of hiring illegals to work at the Romney home and Gingrich thundering how untrue it is that he favored the voluntary waiver, only to admit it was true). Romney is showing poise, judgment, class, bearing and command of the facts---all this in a way that makes him look much more presidential than the others.

Ken (Old Texican)| 10.19.11 @ 2:11PM

the REAL Rick Perry...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W67bLGiHiFk

Paul McGrath| 10.19.11 @ 2:28PM

Sorry, Ken. If this is Perry at his best--marginally articulate, unspecific about anything--then he's not ready for prime time. Just another blathering politician pandering to sycophants.

Sure, he might be a conservative, but he can't seem to be able to sell it. I'm not buying.

Ken (Old Texican)| 10.19.11 @ 2:52PM

Grz,
Call me! this blog will go into archives in a minute.
713-569-3896

Grzmlyk| 10.19.11 @ 3:30PM

Can't, Ken - I'm at work!

yisong| 10.24.11 @ 11:16PM

slewing ring is a kind of comprehensive load to bear large bearings, because of its appearance resembling plate, so it is also called "slewing bearing". http://www.1stbearing.com

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