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The Spectacle Blog
If you made a drinking game out of every mention of “9-9-9” in tonight’s debate, you’re probably too blotto to read this post until tomorrow. That’s because Herman Cain, who mentions his “9-9-9 plan” at every opportunity, has risen in the polls to the point that he’s getting much more attention — he got the first question of the night — and much more scrutiny, as well. For the first time, Cain had a target on his back, with other candidates (who previously wouldn’t have bothered) attacking said 9-9-9 plan as well as Cain’s support for TARP and (in Ron Paul’s case) his history with the Federal Reserve. Cain took some hits, but his affable demeanor served him well, slipping only when Jon Huntsman made a lame pizza joke that seemed to get under Cain’s skin. Rick Santorum’s attack on Cain was intellectually sound — adding a national sales tax would indeed give future congresses a new lever for mischief — but its effect was blunted by the contrast between Santorum’s aggressive, slightly desperate presentation and Cain’s unflappable response.
Rick Perry continues to underperform in debates, and his poll numbers are showing it. Fred Barnes noted on the Wall Street Journal op-ed page the other day that the debates are proving to be by far the most important factor in the race this cycle, and this one will do nothing to rescue Perry from the slump he’s been in. Mitt Romney, for his part, continues to turn in relatively solid performances; Romney is never great, but he’s been consistently good enough.
This debate is probably somewhat less important than average; Barnes pointed out in his WSJ piece that the debates have been getting millions of viewers, but given that tonight’s debate was on Bloomberg TV the ratings will probably be significantly lower than those held on Fox News or MSNBC or CNN (particularly since the Charlie Rose-style pacing made this generally less entertaining than previous debates). More exposure for Herman Cain has up until now translated to more support, but his liabilities were on display more tonight than they had been in the past; it may turn out to be a wash. We’ll see.
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Clint| 10.11.11 @ 11:09PM
This Debate Had More Economic Substance & Less Gotcha Crap From The Questioning Panel.
Cain's 9-9-9 is A Non-Starter, because conservatives will not support giving Big Government A National Sales Tax & An Income Tax.
His earlier support of TARP, & opposition to The FED Audit is damning.
His Economic 9-9-9 Guru is Rich Lowrie, A Former FED Official & now a TARP Recipient, Wells Fargo Division Guy, who donated to Romney's 2008 campaign.
NowIsTheTime| 10.11.11 @ 11:26PM
I take back what I said in the other plan. Ron Paul's followers are out in force blasting Cain, so maybe Goldstein is right that Paul is afraid of Cain.
But why? Paul has no chance of winning. Cain isn't taking votes away from Paul. They appeal to completely different demographics. Cain happens to be the obvious challenger to Romney right now, but Perry was the obvious challenger a few weeks ago and Paul didn't go after Perry that way, and he's never gone after Romney that way. So why all of a sudden is Cain the target of Team Paul?
Margie| 10.12.11 @ 1:06AM
I'll take a stab at that. I think it's because the Paul-bots actually believe Ron Paul is capable of winning.
That's how they think, so it follows that they are truly afraid of Cain because they can see he's winning already.
It's ironic~ Clint here is always projecting (and lying)~ he always says we (everybody who isn't a Paul-bot) are afraid of Ron Paul.
LOL!
Clint| 10.12.11 @ 9:52AM
RINO-CINO Screwball Israel Firster Fanatic Margie Here Can't Handle The Truth.
Herman Cain Didn't Want To Audit The FED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiAkeFJXwUk
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
Margie| 10.12.11 @ 9:17PM
You're a blatant liar and an idiot.
Like all Leftist scum, you think that if you keep repeating something, it'll make it true.
Herman Cain on the Fed Reserve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Clint| 10.12.11 @ 11:04AM
You're Scared Of The Tea Party & Our Co-Favorite Presidential Candidate Dr. Ron Paul.
"Harris Poll: Ron Paul, Mitt Romney Would Top President Obama
Released on Tuesday, September 27, the latest Harris Poll surveyed 2,462 adults and was conducted between September 12 and 19. According to the poll, if Texas Congressman Ron Paul wins the Republican presidential nomination he would beat Obama by 51 percent to 49 percent in the general election. On the other hand, if former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney wins the GOP nomination he would top Obama by 53 percent to 47 percent in the general election."
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
Jack in Wi.| 10.12.11 @ 7:04AM
no other candidate but ron paul has a chance of winning. He does as well as anyone in one on one olls with Obama. He does by far the best anong inependents and conservative Demorats. No Republican can win without those votes. Cain is Mr. Tarp, Mr. Fderal Reserve, Mr. endless war, Mr national sales tax all rolled up into one. He also loves Alan Greenspan. He out right lied about being for the audit of the Fed.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:27AM
999 is a 'plan', sir - it is not etched in stone and Mr. Cain has never stated it is a take it all or leave it as Mr. Obama has done with his proposed bills. Mr. Cain is not inflexible and he does not propose to have all the answers to every question.
His experience with the FED should be very helpful as he has working knowledge of that entity.
He clearly stated he has never said that he opposed the audit ofthe FED, that was very clear if you listened to him refer to the conversation.
As for Rich Lowrie - how is that so damming. Gosh the Clintons and Obama have taken money and been supported by some very questionable anti-American donors, so what is the big deal with Rich Lowrie?
Margie| 10.12.11 @ 1:11AM
Pretty good analysis, Mr. Tabin.
But I still think Herman Cain's gonna win. He resonates with the country class.
Rick Perry reminds me of how Fred Thompson was, he just doesn't seem all that into it.
Pecos Pete| 10.12.11 @ 6:26AM
Margie: I like your use of Country Class. Gonna borrow it from time to time.
John Navratil| 10.12.11 @ 9:51AM
Margie,
I think, and hope, that you are right. Every time I see Romney, I see him looking over his shoulder at big government. Perry, a decent man and my #2, looks like another insider whose greatest asset is not being Romney. Cain is affable, like Reagan, and, despite his stint at the Fed, is no insider. That resonates.
The job being applied for is Chief Executive. He is certainly that. He has his warts. His 9-9-9 plan has garnered some valid criticisms, but the message that informs all of it is to reduce the burden of government to everyone. His biggest opponents appear to be the party insiders.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:28AM
I believe that Herman Cain is one of the most 'real' and honest candidates we have seen since the era of Ronald Regan! He is a breath of fresh air!
Margie| 10.12.11 @ 9:25PM
Amen you guys!
And Pecos Pete, I didn't coin that phrase, one of the writers here did, I think.
As to Rick Perry, meh.
JimH| 10.12.11 @ 6:56AM
Kinda sounded like a Fraulein on a date. I like what I know of Cain's background, training and accomplishments. He appears to be a straight shooter who combines personal dignity with an ability to laugh at himself. 999 was criticized last night for opening up to the government a new way to tax people. My concern with 999 is that sales taxes tend to encourage people to try to evade them with under the counter deals. I am willing to consider it and I like the other the other two nines as flattening and simplifying the income tax while removing loopholes. I need to see his figuring on the payroll tax. He says the cut to 9% goes to the worker, however unless one is self employed, half of what is paid comes from the employer.
Casey Abell| 10.12.11 @ 8:22AM
About time that $%^#@&! national sales tax got a working over. Apparently it's okay for Cain to give the feds a nice new way to grab our money because...well, Cain is so likeable, and he's not Romney, and, gee, it's okay for him because it's okay for him.
Yeah, right. If Romney was proposing that obnoxious grab at our wallets, this board would be resounding with RIIIIINNNNNNOOOOOOOO yelps, and rightly so.
Cain better get ready for a lot more hits on that lousy tax. And his "unflappable demeanor" ain't gonna make the stinkin' tax smell any nicer. (National sales tax? We don't need no stinkin' national sales tax!)
Disclaimer: I'm a Perry supporter who's not feeling so great right now. But trying to be as objective as I can, I can't believe how Cain has gotten away with a tax proposal that would (justly) finish off any other GOP candidate.
John Navratil| 10.12.11 @ 9:56AM
Casey Abell,
I'm with you in the criticism of yet another tax source. However, a shift to a consumption based tax is long overdue and has been a topic for discussion in conservative circles for years. Cain is clear that he wants to get to the "Fair Tax" which has its critics as well but the charge of RINO is meritless.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:31AM
I agree, I feel the national sales tax is long overdue. The only thing is it CAN NO be turned into a VAT tax and that is probably what the democrats would try to do with the proposal. I am so ready for the archaic unfair TAX CODE to be tossed out!
LarryK| 10.12.11 @ 8:50AM
At least Cain put a plan out there like Newt. The others just blather on and on and on and on...
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:31AM
Right!
bluecollarbytes| 10.12.11 @ 9:35AM
Cain's 999 plan is not going to win him the nomination.
999 presents a challenge to the entire govt/political/tax-industry complex. Our tax system is not just about funding wasteful and fraudulent programs and payoffs. It's about controlling the daily actions and decisions of citizens. Both parties have played this game. Controlling/directing behaviors is a major goal of the tax code, and an accepted long-term practice. Cain placing such focus on 999 to the near exclusion of everything else makes we wonder just How would Cain hope to enact such reform when the forces on both sides are likely to resist indefinitely? Would any running for Congress take up this cause? Introducing yet another fed tax stream- national sales tax, on top of other taxes, is huge cause for alarm as well.
I'd like to know what Cain would do, how he'd approach governing, when it becomes obvious that no way in hell is the establishment ever going to go along with 999, including the fiscal restraint it would require on the part of Congress to keep us at 999.
Is Cain really aiming for Romney's VP slot? The rapport between Romney and Cain in the debate had me wondering...
Cain is a serious fiscal thinker. Watch his performance jousting with Bill Clinton over the potential threat to small business if ClintonCare had passed. Cain should rise above 999 and take a good look at what's actually possible, what things he can do from day one in the whitehouse, because '999', even if it happens, won't for happen years.
bluecollarbytes| 10.12.11 @ 9:38AM
it also won't happen for years. jeepers
Steve A| 10.12.11 @ 10:19AM
Ok, you guys are wearing me out with this: Will somebody who is critical of this 999 plan please respond here. I understand the argument that, "We are giving Big Govt another avenue to tax & they could jack that up in the future." I fully understand this concept, BUT, just what in the hell is stopping "Big Govt" from jacking up income tax, cap gains or any other tax if Leftists get enough power in the future. I'll go ahead & answer for you: NOTHING. Not a damn thing. So just shelf this stupid argument against the 999.
Further, if I'm not mistaken, the stipulation is that 2/3 of Congress approval would be needed to change the code. Just what in the hell else are you looking for as a safeguard?
The opposition to the 999 is shallow & not well contemplated. It is a simple plan, a fair plan & far superior to the current system. It also gets at under the table $$ on the sales end.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:37AM
I agree and it is better than anything 'pretty boy' Romney has come up with. He is all repeat the same old/same old and "look pretty" for the cameras; Perry makes faces, rolls his eyes, and pans for the cameras too - these two do not have combined substance to come near Herman Cain.
I personally think a great combination is Cain-Bachman. She has the additional extremely serious tax background/some business and he is business and very common sense grounded.
Clint| 10.12.11 @ 11:08AM
Tell It To The Heritage Foundation.
Cain's 9-9-9 Is A Non-Starter.
" Curtis Dubay of the Heritage Foundation says many conservatives would not feel comfortable with a national sales tax unless the 16th Amendment, which established the income tax, was repealed, to totally cut off that vein of revenue.
Dubay also said he would be concerned about allowing a new stream of revenue with the current entitlement structure in place, given that officials in both parties have said that programs like Medicare and Medicaid need to be restructured. "
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
Steve A| 10.12.11 @ 11:21AM
Hey Clint, Can you pass along a mesage to Curtis Dubay for me please? Tell him I have never heard of him. Thanks
Margie| 10.12.11 @ 9:20PM
LOL!
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:22AM
I don't for a minute believe that the pizza comment 'got under Mr. Cain's skin' -- I believe he is way above that and way to savvy to let someone making such a statement bother him in the least. It was more of a showing of bad judgment on Huntsman's part that how Mr. Cain responded, which I thought was just fine.
Herman Cain's 999 plan is bold, no question about it, but we need something bold and it is long overdue for the archaic/unfair tax code to be tossed out. I'm sure he realizes that his plan would be tweaked and modified, but at least he has a plan with economic expertise backing and thought. He is articulate, well read, very business savvy and seems to have more common sense than all the rest of the candidates put together. He is NOT a 'polished politician,' and I believe that is why he resonates with the American voter.
As for Ron Paul's questions - he is so far off the wall that he attracts the 'fringe' element, he can not be taken as a serious candidate that the GOP would ever nominate as he would never beat Obama if he had 10 more years to get ready for the election.
Just imagine the debates between Mr. Obama and Mr. Cain! What would the main stream media do?? They would not be able to call the heated deabte with racial slurs - it would probably be one of the most honest, 'real' debates we have ever seen in a presidential debate. Go Mr. Cain - keep it up you're doing great!
Clint| 10.12.11 @ 11:09AM
You're Scared Of The Tea Party & Our Co-Favorite Presidential Candidate Dr. Ron Paul.
"Harris Poll: Ron Paul, Mitt Romney Would Top President Obama
Released on Tuesday, September 27, the latest Harris Poll surveyed 2,462 adults and was conducted between September 12 and 19. According to the poll, if Texas Congressman Ron Paul wins the Republican presidential nomination he would beat Obama by 51 percent to 49 percent in the general election. On the other hand, if former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney wins the GOP nomination he would top Obama by 53 percent to 47 percent in the general election."
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 11:24AM
I don't know how much you read across the country - but here is a news flash: Ron Paul would not win no matter whom he would be running against and that certainly includes Mr. Obama. Polls can be skewed depending on who they are polling and certainly in the way the questions are couched!
Steve A| 10.12.11 @ 10:45AM
moey, Yes sir, You have it. You get Cain vs. Obama & you can toss the idiotic race card right out the window. The attacks on Cain from the left would backfire dramatically. Plus, Cain cleans Obama's clock in a debate when the focus is on Economics. It is not even close.
Cain needs someone like Gingrich in some capacity (VP, Cabinet) to help steer him through the morass of policy in DC. If you could shed Gingrich's baggage, he is the best candidate to enact conservative legislation & give voice to the cause. He needs to stay on the back burner & in the game.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 10:58AM
I agree totally Steve. Gingrich is probably the smartest 'old school Republican' around today. I like him and his knowledge and ideas. HOWEVER, as you mentioned the baggage is what stops me from getting too excited and it is just too much in my opinion. I also believe that when you get Newt you also get his wife, Calista, and that could be a stumbling block for his running mate, I believe. I think she is a force to be reckoned with; almost another Michelle Obama, but even more in your face. Now I could be wrong as this is just my opinion, but that's the way I see it right now. Cain-Gingrich would be a whopper of a ticket; certainly more palatalble than either Romney or Perry and definitely Ron Paul.
Stefan Stackhouse| 10.12.11 @ 11:01AM
I just find it amazing that so many of you are apparently so in love with a 15.3% payroll tax that you consider it preferable to a 9% sales tax.
You do realize, don't you, that congress could increase that payroll tax with just about as much ease as they could increase a sales tax? If you love a 15.3% payroll tax, how about 18% or 20%. Don't be deluded into thinking that such increases might not be on the table once we get serious about fixing social security and medicare.
Speaking for myself, I detest the payroll tax. As Ronald Reagan said, if you want less of something, you tax it. We're taxing employment, so is it any wonder we're getting less of it? We're not taxing consumption, so is there any wonder we've had too much of it, and not enough savings and investment?
John Navratil| 10.12.11 @ 12:00PM
Stefan Stackhouse,
Bingo!
Steve A| 10.12.11 @ 11:24AM
Stefan, The scary part is that you apparently have a large segment of supposedly rational thinking Conservatives out there who are UNABLE TO GRASP THIS CONCEPT. It is sad but not hopeless. Cain has the ability to explain it in layman terms & this is apparently what needs to happen, repeatedly.
moey| 10.12.11 @ 11:26AM
I think that is what bothers so many 'old school politicans' - Cain explains things in layman terms which the ordinary person on the street can understand. That is one of the reason he resonates with the general voting public. He has no 'liability' baggage that I have been able to find, he is genuine, truthful and if he doesn't know - he will be truthful enough to say that he will find out. Now that is refreshing!
Casey Abell| 10.12.11 @ 11:51AM
Okay, let's see Cain explain to voters that other taxes will get cut, so who cares about that little national sales tax thingie that will take almost ten percent of your money.
The 30-second ads write themselves. I can see people literally laughing at the idea that the national sales tax would somehow be balanced by tax cuts elsewhere.
Folks, this tax is a killer, and not in the good sense. If you think Cain can skate on it by promising tax cuts somewhere else...well, there is this bridge in Brooklyn.
John Navratil| 10.12.11 @ 11:58AM
Casey Abell,
Cain has said what he wants. He isn't king and cannot write it, but he does have a veto pen. If you think Cain would support a tax increase without the tax relief he has called for...well, there is this bridge in Brooklyn.
yisong| 10.25.11 @ 1:45AM
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