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The Spectacle Blog

Imagining a Christofascism-Free America

By Joseph Lawler on 9.21.11 @ 2:19PM

Walter Russell Mead silences the alarm on creeping theocracy:

And so I say it again to all my many friends on the secular and religious left: relax. The Christianists aren't coming to lock you up in camps. George W. Bush was the first president to choose a vice presidential running mate with an openly lesbian daughter; the dark night of fascism isn't preparing to fall. The Left likely must resign itself to a long term trend of less compulsory social solidarity and more individual economic freedom; the right must accept that individuals in our society can only be compelled by their own consciences on an ever growing list of social and cultural issues. No one will be completely happy about the state of this society; Americans have been lamenting the downsides of American individualism for almost as long as we've been becoming more individualistic. And the less we can rely on external forces (laws and mores with as much binding power as law) to govern our behavior the more we as a people must learn to manage our liberty wisely.

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JP| 9.21.11 @ 3:08PM

Fascism is a Progressive disease. If it comes to America, it will not come via the local Fundementalist Church, but through a whole host of Progressive institutions. In many ways, Progressive Fascism is already here.

Zimble| 9.21.11 @ 4:09PM

Read the article. The "rebuttal" offered isn't that the Christianists wouldn't like to impose their views on the rest of society. The reason the author offers for leftists not needing to worry is that individualism is too strong a force in this country to be overcome by Christianism.

If you want further evidence read Simon Templar's comment below. He sees it as a full-scale cultural war against traditional American values. There are many like him. He'd like to turn the clock back to ... well I'm not sure if he's pining for the 1950's or for something from a previous century you'd have to ask him.

To some extent the author of the original article is correct. Even Christianists who pine for the good old days don't generally want to go back to *all* of the things that were part of "traditional American values" in the 50's or whenever. Few people are still opposed to interracial marriage. Few would want to ban alcohol. Few would want the return of blue laws. There are many examples of things that were part of traditional values, that are now viewed as either quaint or repulsive even by the people who call for a return to traditional values.

So maybe the author of that article is right. Little by little things like interracial marriage go from being an affront to traditional values, to being something that nearly everyone just accepts (i.e., whether they personally do it or not, they accept that others should be free to do it). These days you'll hear people who advocate for "traditonal American values" try to deny that opposition to interracial marriage was ever part of "traditional American values" but that's just because they use "traditional American values" to refer to their own current values. They want the parts of "traditional American values" that they agree with, and not the parts they don't. Attitudes toward gay marriage are changing in just the same way.

Simon Templar| 9.21.11 @ 5:28PM

You are the perfect example of what I am talking about. One of the first and foremost tricks that Liberals and progressives like to use is the straw man argument and the false premise.

As you are so fond of the idea that words matter and the concept of controlling the narrative, you begin with the redefinition of traditional American values and falsely accuse me of wanting to return to days of slavery and every other ridiculous false definition of traditional american values. Banning alcohol, interracial marriage, slavery, and all the other lame examples were never examples of traditional American values but political aberrations and were not shared by all Americans nor do they represent the traditional American values that have been primarily under attack by the cultural marxist or the ones of which I am speaking. There was opposition to slavery as their was opposition to the abolition of it. There were dry states and their were wet ones. Yes, there were places that were against interracial marriage as there WERE place in the US where it was legal and accepted.

Your understanding of individualism is not even correct. Individualism is a distinct concept..you confuse it with individuality..they are not exactly the same. Yes, classic American individualism is under attack and being purposefully replaced by collectivism. If you can not see this, you are reither a liar or a useful idiot. Individual expression is also under assault. Only that which is approved politically correct can be expressed these days. No one is attempting to go back to any era. This is a lame and false accusation that distracts from the real issue here.

Here is a short list of traditional American values that are under attack from the Left and stand in the way of the socialistic agenda.

-The concept of a constitutional self governing Republic and the idea that this constitution is not a living document nor antiquated.
-The nuclear family, the need for a father in a family, the rights of men in reproduction issues or matters regarding their children.
-Individualism. The idea that you are responsible for yourself and your fate and destiny.
- Limited and accountable government.
- Religious expression.
- The right to bear arms.
- Modesty and self control in matters of sexuality and sexual expression.
- the work ethic.
- freedom of expression outside of political left wing correctness

None of these ideas or values are antiquated or irrevelant but rather form the basis of our American identity and our historical roots. All have been under attack and have been suppressed. As a conservative, I am pining for their protection and preservation. I am pining for a say in where this nation is going. I am pining for a Republic where one small elite of know-it-alls do not dictate to the rest of the nation what are acceptable beliefs and what are not.

Al Adab| 9.21.11 @ 5:49PM

A good list Simon and good analysis.

Zimble| 9.21.11 @ 7:08PM

falsely accuse me of wanting to return to days of slavery

Nice hyperbole you got there. I didn't accuse you of wanting to return to the days of slavery.

What you are wanting to return to is something that never existed in the form you imagine. You want to pick and choose the things that you consider traditional American values (corresponding exactly to what *you* want here in the year 2011) and rejecting the things that were just as much a part of American life but that you now would reject.

The author of the original article mentioned a lot of specific examples of the kinds of things Sullivan feared, and your list here is quite different. Let's try to bridge that gap. You say one of the things under attack is "the nuclear family." That's rather vague. The article's author talks specifically about divorce. So tell me what you see slipping away under attacks from the left regarding divorce in this country, and what you'd like to see done about it. Specifically. Would you advocate for a return to the laws and attitudes regarding divorce from an earlier time, and if so, from how long ago?

Simon Templar| 9.22.11 @ 2:26AM

You really should just shut up when you are beat.
You accussed me of wanting to return to the 1950's or perhaps to the previous century...the 19th, I would surmise. Yes, we have heard that accusation thrown at conservatives ad nauseum.

You reset the parameters of the discussion when you offered "values" that you considered were American traditional values. I effectively showed that they were not. The list of values that I gave certainly did exist and exist today as traditional values that are under attack. I am not picking and choosing anything. Address what I have wrote and quit playing typical liberal games by skirting the issue and the points made in refutation towards your argument.

You tell me how the traditional american value of the right to bear arms and practice religion has not been attacked, undermined, and abridged by the Left and Progressives. Start with that. Tell me exactly how I am exaggerating. Don't try to change the subject.

LOL. You have nothing but the same old liberal drivel. Here is the definition of drivel - childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.

Simon Templar| 9.21.11 @ 3:32PM

Why do you you have such a strange title for your article that seems to, at first glance, give credence to the idea that we live in a Christian fascistic nation. Did they teach you in journalism school that most readers often just read titles of articles and never the content? This is what people do with newspapers as there is too much information to process.

Your understanding of what is actually happening in this nation in regards to culture is rather simplistic and wholly inaccurate. It is not a question of whether conservatives accept that individuals in our society can only be compelled by their own consciences on an ever growing list of social and cultural issues.

This is not a matter of individuals expressing their individuality or their so-called consciences.

It is a full scale culture war of destruction, intolerance, and political correctness against mainstream and traditional American values. It is not historically grounded in the American experience but is the product of cultural marxism brought here from outside influences such as the Frankfurt School.

It does not seek consensus, compromise, tolerance, respect, or individual expression. The Left dictates the narrative, the approved values, and the social parameters of morality and at their whim and fancy to whatever serves their ultimate political goals at the moment.

American individualism itself is on the Wanted Dead or Alive list in this war. This is not about liberty. This is about shaping a culture into a collective conciousness that serves socialistic tyranny and has no vestiges of the old culture that might challenge or threaten that tyranny.

I strongly suggest you get a hold of some left wing literature on this subject and educate yourself. You will then quickly understand what is really happenning here.

Margie| 9.21.11 @ 4:56PM

"Ask the Papists, and they will tell you."

Ask the Papists here, and they will tell you that evangelical Christians are Fascists.

They breathe it every day.

Just ask Ken the old Texicant, Clint, who he agrees with about Bible believing Christians, Jospeph the liar, and Nick the other Papist and perverter of God's Word~ and they'll tell you!

Bible believing Christians are Fascists! They're haters! They Bible Idolators because they stand on the Word of God and reject Darwinism and lukewarm Pap.

I wonder if that's why they're not commenting so far.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.21.11 @ 10:08PM

Margie.....
you are sorely tempting me to post your e-mails to me after I covered your butt here on numerous occasions.
Please quit ex-communicating me from the Pope Margie catholic church...of one member.
Thank you

Margie| 9.22.11 @ 1:52AM

You covered my butt? You have been practicing bearing false witness against me.

You're out of your mind. And now you're referring to ME as a Catholic?

Grow up, Ken. You are acting like a teenager.
You're one deceitful son of a bitch.

Dixie Pixie| 9.21.11 @ 6:48PM

The “Dark Night” of American fascism started with the election of Obama.
It came from the Socialists and is supported by the Left in a symbiotic relationship.

In the 1700's a Puritan Theocracy was created in New England and was ultimately rejected and never tried again.
The Socialists imposed Fascism complete with a police state and MSM propaganda arm using the cover of “Liberating America ” and “Freedom and Liberty”.
That is to say the American public has the freedom and liberty to be dutiful serfs to Socialism.
The propaganda that it was necessary to save America by imposing Fascism is simply a self-serving lie.

American Fascism is documented daily in TAS such as the below article “Recording The Police.... “.
The word of a citizen is worth nothing and the word of the Police is the final and only Truth.
AttackWatch.com is a further addition to the police state.

The State Rules All, for the Socialist Bureaucracies Know All, See All and are All That Matters.

Next up is “The Night of Broken Glass” when the Palestinian State is declared, …. for the Muslims have vowed a Second Jewish Holocaust.

9th ID| 9.21.11 @ 9:11PM

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams