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The Spectacle Blog
Rick Perry is catching a lot of flak because of his comments about the death penalty.
During last night’s debate, Perry was asked if he “struggled to sleep at night with the idea that any of those [executed] might have been innocent.” He responded: “No, Sir. I’ve never struggled with that at all.”
Given how difficult it is to apply the death penalty, and given how infrequently this punishment is meted out, I think Perry’s response was entirely justified.
“The state of Texas,” he explained, “has a very thoughtful [and] very clear process in place. When someone commits the most heinous of crimes against our citizens, they get a fair hearing. They go through an appellate process; they go up to the Supreme Court of the United States if that’s required.”
(And, he might have added, DNA evidence also is now used to ensure that innocent defendants aren’t executed.)
It’s important that the judicial process be administered in a fair, timely, and efficient manner. Dallas-based criminal defense attorneys Clinton Broden and F.R. “Mick” Mickelsen write that, unfortunately, that’s often not the case:
In most death penalty cases there is little doubt about the guilt of the accused. If there were, it is unlikely the state would seek the death penalty in the first place. Thus the guilt and innocence phase of the trial is usually over in a day or two…
If a defendant finds no success along this lengthy procedural path, it can nevertheless take five to ten years from crime to execution date. If the defendant does meet with some success so that a retrial, or further hearings are conducted the process can drag out for many more years. In Texas, there are inmates who have been on death row for decades.
This is shameful, disgraceful and a true miscarriage of justice. After all, justice delayed is justice denied.
That may be why the GOP debate audience heartily cheered Brian Williams’s claim that Perry had presided over so many executions. They’ve had enough of judges and lawyers overruling their will and making public policy for them.
View all comments (64) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by John R. Guardiano
http://spectator.org/blog/2011/09/08/in-defense-of-perry-on-the-dea
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Simon Templar| 9.8.11 @ 6:05PM
I humbly request that every conservative on this thread including TAS staff read the following article.
It truly is a must read. Please. I will beg if I must. It will clearly explain what Perry and all of us face.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/t.....epage=true
albert constantine jr| 9.8.11 @ 7:08PM
Having just read the article, I would say that there's no need to beg. The correct exhortation might be "If you really love America, you'd read this post".
Jack in Wi.| 9.8.11 @ 6:19PM
I am a Catholic who doesn't believe in the Death Penalty. There have been many cases lately of prisoners wrongly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit. I think justice demands caution in such an extreme penalty. Perhaps the moderator should have asked Ron Paul about that. He used to pro death penalty like me. He had to re think his position with all the reversals that have happened. I did the same thing. I don't trust the goverment to get anything right. Why should I trust them in this?
Simon Templar| 9.8.11 @ 6:44PM
"I think justice demands caution in such an extreme penalty."
How much more caution do you want in Texas?
Furthermore, I thought you were a Libertarian?
What happened to your seperation of church and state and your disdain of religion in issues of public policy? Hmmm, to bad you can not get worked up about these matters when it pertains to killing babies in the womb. Where is the caution, the justice, and the unabashed respect for human life there?
Jack in Wi.| 9.8.11 @ 6:56PM
I have worked in the pro-life movement for decades. I am against the death penalty and most wars as well. The government is supposed to protect the lives of the innocent. Do you really trust a goverment that turns a blind eye to the murder of 60 million babies in the last 38 years? I don't trust the government to get justice right period. It is better and more humane to let some guilty guy sit in prison for life then to kill some innocent. There have been too many miscarriages of justice. Governments, have killed over 100 million people, that were their own subjects, in the last century. The vast majority had done nothing to warrent such a penalty.
Simon Templar| 9.8.11 @ 7:09PM
Great than perhaps you will allow me to express my religious faith and mention the name of God in my valedictorian speech given that I am a citizen of the United States and not an elective representative or official of the US government promoting an exclusive religion above all others.
Or perhaps, you will allow me to exercise my religious rights of expression in saying a voluntary prayer with my class mates on the football field before a game given I am a private citizen and the tax payer that paid for this school?
DRed| 9.8.11 @ 7:31PM
That would be fine by this liberal.
Simon Templar| 9.8.11 @ 6:59PM
While were at it,
"I don't trust the goverment to get anything right. Why should I trust them in this?"
is actually the smartest thing you have ever written in your entire life.
Yes, and that would apply to tax funded abortions, homosexual marriage, and every distorted and unconstitutional restriction and limitation on my first and second ammendment rights passed in the last 45 years let alone my basic inalienable right to LIFE, liberty, and my pursuit of happiness.
W| 9.8.11 @ 8:05PM
Jack and Simon,
You are both making the case for a limited government which is supported by true conservatives and libertarians.
ER| 9.8.11 @ 6:44PM
I am a catholic you believes very strongly in the Death penalty. The most misrepresented Commandment actually reads, "Thou shall not MURDER" in the original Hebrew. Revisionists use "Thou shall not KILL" as a club to tranquilize we who are religious. Many good Catholics killed may evil men in our country's wars, both abroad and on the mean streets of many of our cities.
Kitty| 9.8.11 @ 7:34PM
Dittos, and THANK YOU! I was going to post this, but you beat me to this reply. (Btw, I am a Catholic-in-training.)
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 7:43PM
Kitty,
Welcome home. Rome, sweet, home.
God Bless!
Margie| 9.8.11 @ 8:28PM
Indeed the "good Catholics Papists" knew how to commit murder for 600 years.
They tortured and killed millions of Bible believing Christians for refusing to bow the knee to.. themselves!
They have always played the role of God Himself, making themselves Judge, Jury and Executioner.. of both Jews and Christians.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 10:39PM
Margie,
No, they didn't.
Margie| 9.8.11 @ 10:44PM
History says otherwise, Nick. And you know it.
Shall I list the Inquisitions here?
Maybe you could tell me the purpose of the Inquisitions.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 10:59PM
Margie,
I have explained it to you, many, many times. You refuse to accept the truth, and ignore facts. Facts you cannot refute.
You can't even explain why you never state that Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Calvinists, etc., follow a demonic Religion.
Hope all is well with you and Victor.
God Bless!
Margie| 9.9.11 @ 1:35PM
That is correct. You cannot dispute the facts, Nick.
I have posted the historical evidence that you reject and instead choose to defend the Papists whom have trained you so very well.
It is sad that you choose to join with Satan himself in calling the Martyrs that were tortured and killed by their hands "heretics."
In truth, the heretics are the Papists themselves and their ilk~ who brought in the hundreds of false and demonic teachings, and formed your Religion.
Your Religion was not formed for a few hundred years after Christ~ it brought in the false teachings that are still taught today~ unbiblical teachings~ and it chose to thereby murder millions of Bible believing Christians who refused to bow the knee to the ungodly Papists.
They have NEVER repented of these false teachings~ to this very day they still teach them. And you still join with them in referring to the Martyrs as heretics.
http://homecomers.org/mirror/
Nick| 9.9.11 @ 11:47PM
Margie,
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word heretic.
It is I who constantly posts historical facts, which you ignore. When I refute your so-called facts, all you can do is call me a liar, or scumbag. That is not an argument, I'm afraid.
"Your Religion was not formed for a few hundred years after Christ [...]."
The early Church Fathers clearly taught the doctrines of the Catholic Church, which you have readily admitted many, many times, in our discussions. Now, you are claiming that the Catholic Church didn't start teaching Her doctrines until a "few hundred years after Christ"?
When did you change your mind about this?
And, when will you take to task the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Calvinists, etc., for following a demonic Religion?
Margie| 9.10.11 @ 3:54AM
You are lying, Nick.
What I quote is the very Scriptures in order to show what God says, and what He actually says in the Bible is the truth, which Catholic doctrine is NOT in agreement with, and you know it.
You are guilty of believing the many lies of the Devil, and promoting them to others. You know they are lies, because you are one who studies.
You refute NOTHING in the Scriptures that I post~ because you cannot! What you ACTUALLY do, Nick, is TRY and make me out to be a liar, but you can't do it.
You are a very deceitful man. God knows exactly what you are doing, just as He knows what every Papist is doing~ teaching a different gospel. Not the one of Jesus Christ.
And yes, THAT is what a scumbag does. After all, it is your scumbag Papists on whose hands is the blood of the saints, (my brethren), of whom you also refer to as heretics. THEY are the heretics and scum~ and God is a Righteous Judge~ NOT a ONE of them will escape the Judgement of Christ.
As to the "early church fathers"~ all anyone with half a brain has to do is go and google them and read their own words to see what things they taught. Most of them did NOT teach what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
And I haven't "changed my mind about anything," disingenuous one. (For that is what you are for how you are trying to twist my words and thoughts, and are most despicable for so doing!).
For I know that the Catholic Religion did not exist until a few centuries after Christ this is also historical fact~ and I am talking about the perverted men who started it, with the Papacy and all the unbiblical doctrines.. and they began persecuting Bible believing Christians.
IT IS HISTORY.
Catholicism is NOT Christianity. The Religion does not preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you know it. But you have allowed yourself to be deceived.
As to other denominations~ I don't follow them. But I do call an ace an ace whenever I see one, and you know that as well.
"Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.
Nick| 9.11.11 @ 1:34AM
Margie,
"[...] and you know it."
I know, no such thing.
"[...] and promoting them to others."
I am called to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with others. Nothing will stop me from my charge.
"You refute NOTHING in the Scriptures that I post [...]."
I don't try to "refute" the Scriptures, because NO ONE can do that. I disagree with the way you, sometimes, wrench verses of Scripture out of context. And, I correct your mistaken claims about the teachings of the Catholic Church, and Her history.
When I do this, all you can do is call me a liar, and a scumbag. And repeat the same wrong information over, and over, and over again. These are not arguments, nor, do they prove your point of view. It is just repetition.
"Most of them did NOT teach what Jesus and the Apostles taught."
What the early Church Fathers did teach, is what the Catholic Church teaches, as you have admitted many, many times. Now, you are claiming that The Religion didn't "exist until a few centuries after Christ." Both, cannot be true. What you are asserting is certainly not history.
"But I do call an ace an ace whenever I see one, and you know that as well."
When? Show me one quote where you once told a Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, et al, that they follow the doctrine of demons? You only speak your truth to Catholics.
You even call William Tyndale your brethren, when the man was a Catholic Priest, who turned heretical, and became a Lutheran. How can a Lutheran be one of your brethren?
Please, believe me, I am not trying to make you out to be a liar. Trust me, I would call you a liar, to your face, so to speak, if I thought you were purposely asserting false facts. I'm just correcting your mistaken notions about the Catholic Church.
I can't make you believe the Truth. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. I pray that the Spirit opens your heart, as well as your eyes.
God Bless!
Joseph| 9.8.11 @ 10:42PM
Margie you are a hopeless obsessed bigot. Buzz off.
Larry| 9.8.11 @ 6:55PM
Regardless of what you think about the death penalty (I, a Catholic, also strongly support it, and note my vigorous dissent from the position of the late Pope John Paul II, although I respect where he is coming from in some respects), one has to think it quite ironic that two defense attorneys would complain about how long some defendants have sat on Death Row in Huntsville. They and their ilk are often responsible for the lengthy delays, long after the evidence confirms the obviousness of the guilt, on issues on what type of drugs are used, the mental faculties of the convicted, the way the jury was picked. All of which shows not a passion for due process, but how weak we are in defending the norms and standards of an open, free, and civilized society.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 7:50PM
Larry,
Blessed John Paul II was not totally against the death penalty. He believed that it should be rare, in well-developed countries. Remember, the death penalty was always the last resort, in order to protect society.
Also, don't you believe that the death penalty statutes of the several States, and the Federal government, should follow God's directives, in the Scriptures, that required multiple witnesses, or, a confession, before the death penalty could be implemented?
W| 9.8.11 @ 8:13PM
Nick,
The Scripture requirement was in its day the best safeguard to not execute an innocent man. But today, we have scientific evidence, such as DNA, and further, a confession is not admissible in court unless the confession was freely given. This means it must be made after the accused has been advised to remain silent, to have a lawyer, and any other circumstance a smart attorney can argue to have the confession thrown out.
I have seen many confessions thrown out and then there was little if no evidence left, and the guilty walked out the courtroom.
In every case that goes to trial the confession is challenged and there is a pre trial hearing to determine if the confession should be admitted.
Hope all is well with you in the Motor City.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 11:20PM
W,
I hope all is well with you, also.
I think you are conflating the throwing out of a confession leading to the accused being set free (to which I am opposed) and, lacking witnesses, the requirement of a confession to implement the death penalty. These are two different things.
Scientific advances are no substitute for "two or three witnesses," in my opinion. I agree with God on this one. Putting witnesses under oath, and swearing that the defendant committed the murder, knowing that if they lie, they are subject to the death penalty themselves; this is the best system I can think of to make sure that the innocent are not executed.
And, yes, a confession must be freely given. This was true even during the dreaded Inquisition. If, after suffering the equivalent of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, the accused heretic recanted his confession, he could not be found guilty. Unless, there were multiple witnesses.
In medieval times, if you heard screams coming from a neighbor's house, saw the neighbor leave covered in blood, with a bloody hatchet, and later found out his wife had been hacked to death; without a confession, the man could not be executed for murder. Because you did not see, with your own eyes, the neighbor kill his wife. These laws followed the command of God, in the Scriptures.
Somewhere down the line, we stopped following the Word of God when it comes to the death penalty. I'm sure the Protestants had something to do with it! Ha-ha!
God Bless!
Margie| 9.8.11 @ 8:25PM
If the Papists ever followed God's directives, they'd have to repent from being Popes.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 10:41PM
Margie,
No, they wouldn't.
Margie| 9.8.11 @ 10:46PM
They would, and you know it.
God despises the perverted hierarchy, and it was never His will.
The only Father Jesus ever called Holy is God.
Jesus Christ is Lord. You cannot serve two Maters.
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 11:00PM
Margie,
I don't serve two masters. I try to serve God, the best that I can.
God Bless!
Margie| 9.9.11 @ 1:42PM
NO ONE can serve two Masters.
You either serve Jesus Christ, or you worship the Papacy and the false unbiblical teachings, and consider Bible believing saints as heretics.
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Tim. 4:1-5.
"Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.
Nick| 9.9.11 @ 11:35PM
Margie,
I don't worship the Papacy, therefore, I don't serve two masters.
Margie| 9.10.11 @ 4:22AM
You are in agreement with them, you accept the false and unbiblical teachings they do, you believe that Bible believing Christians are heretics, and you believe that the Martyrs whom they tortured and killed were also heretics, so~ you are on the side of the Devil himself.
Would you kiss the pope's ring, Nick? Or would you tell him he's a fraud who is playing God and he needs to repent of it?
I would.
Even Peter himself allowed no one to bow to him, (the Peter who the Catholic Religion claims as the first "pope" when no such thing exists in the Bible):
"When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man." Acts 10:25 & 26.
And if Jesus Himself proclaimed that no man is good, but God Mk. 10:18, Lk. 18:19.~ why do you choose to worship a false idol and thereby reject the Word of God and your true brethren in Christ? If you are in Christ.
Nick| 9.11.11 @ 12:54AM
Margie,
"[...] you believe that Bible believing Christians are heretics [...]."
That is a false statement. I believe that Catholics, in the past, who corrupted the teachings of the Catholic Church were heretics. I would call Nancy Pelosi a modern-day heretic. Heresy has nothing to do with non-Catholics, especially today.
"Would you kiss the pope's ring, Nick?"
Yes, if protocol called for it. Show me where, in the Scriptures, we are forbidden to kiss rings?
"Or would you tell him he's a fraud who is playing God and he needs to repent of it?"
The Holy Father doesn't play God, so, he has nothing of which to repent.
God Bless!
RJ| 9.8.11 @ 7:33PM
Remember the audience was from California, a state that sentenced to death Charles Manson, his 4 of his followers, Sirhan Sirhan, Juan Corona and many brutal murderers, only to see California judges rule that the death penalty was cruel and unfair. When a new death penalty law was put into effect, then Governor Jerry Brown's appointees reversed every single death sentence, which help to lead Chief Justice Rose Bird and two of her associates being denied by California voters an additional term on the California Supreme Court. Charles Manson is the poster boy for the death penalty.
Luis Stecca| 9.9.11 @ 2:23AM
Liberals lost a hero when Stanley "Tookie" Williams was executed at San Quentin via leathal injection, December 2005... 6 weeks later, Clarence Ray Allen suffered the same fate... No protesters, no candlelight vigil, no rousing rendition of Michael rowed the boat ashore... Just
500 cc's of Sodium Penathol. and that was all she wrote
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 7:56PM
Mr. Guardiano,
Thanks for the link to Greenwald's Salon article, in which he berates the hypocrisy of liberals who condemn Governor Perry's response, but, cheered President Downgrade for killing Usama Bin Laden.
It's the closest I've seen Greenwald come to the truth in quite some time.
Linda| 9.8.11 @ 8:28PM
Perry claims to be a United Methodist. The UMC position:
"We believe the death penalty denies the power of Christ to redeem, restore, and transform all human beings," the Social Principles statement says. While expressing concern about crime and the value of life taken by murder or homicide, delegates to the most recent General Conference in 2004 reaffirmed the church's position that "all human life is sacred and created by God." United Methodists are urged to see all human life as "significant and valuable." (Social Principles, ¶164 G, “The Death Penalty,” Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church, 2004 )
God selected two murders to have major roles to spread his word. Why??? How about an example the God loves everyone and every person can be redeemed no matter what they do.
Matthew 25: visit prisoners. Jesus did not include any exceptions. Why would Jesus tell us to visit prisoners?
Nick| 9.8.11 @ 10:52PM
Linda,
Why would Christ tell the Hebrews to execute adulterers, in Leviticus 20:10? Christ never forbade the death penalty. And, the early Christians never precluded its use, either.
The state has always had the right to put individuals to death, to protect society. Anyone who denies this, doesn't know the teachings of Christianity.
Linda| 9.9.11 @ 12:54AM
Christ did not exist in the Old Testament. There are many things in the Old Testament that contradict the teachings of Christ and would be against the law. Lev. 20:9 "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Picking one verse out of the Old Testament to negate what Jesus said demonstrates the weakness of your argument. Christians follow the teachings of Christ. Love your neighbor, including your enemy, no revenge,
Nick| 9.9.11 @ 1:16AM
Linda,
"Christ did not exist in the Old Testament."
Excuse me?
"In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life: and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. That was the true light, which enlightens every man that comes into this world. He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not. He came unto his own: and his own received him not. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." (Emphasis mine.)
- John 1:1-14
When ever you hear God speaking in the Old Testament, you are hearing Christ's Words. Your understanding of Christianity seems to be severely lacking.
Also, Christ never forbade the use of the death penalty once, in the New Testament. Nor, did any of the other New Testament writers.
You can love your neighbor and still execute him, to protect society. Just as you can kill your neighbor to protect yourself, or, your country. Christ did not teach pacifism.
God Bless!
Linda| 9.9.11 @ 5:12AM
I am not going to argue the point of Jesus/Christ not being in the Old Testament. As I am sure you are aware, there is considerable disagreement about what the Bible says. The Bible has been interpreted differently by Protestant denominations and Catholics. The Bible is full of inconsistency and anyone that says otherwise is ignoring the facts. Your statement "Your understanding of Christianity seems to be severely lacking" indicates that you think only your understanding is correct. I say none of us are capable of having the absolute correct interpretation of Christianity/Bible.
The Bible is full of inconsistency about the death penalty. The Old Testament describes the death penalty for a large range of things, but the executions were rarely carried out in the Old Testament. Read John 8:1-11; Ezekiel 33:11;
Anyone that believes the following verses should never complain about elected government officials:
Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Did God put Hitler into power? Christians should not have worked to take him out of power according to the above Romans 13. Also for all conservative Christians Romans 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Give me a verse in the New Testament where Christ did not teach pacifism.
Matthew 5:
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
How many Christian adulterers have cut off pieces of their body?
Jesus said His mission was not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-20). However, He and His apostles greatly modified our understanding of God's intentions. Love is the principle that must guide all our actions (Matthew 5:43-48, 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 13:9-10, Galatians 5:14). Christians are bound by Jesus' commands to "Love the Lord your God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." We are no longer bound by the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21).
Jesus flatly rejected the Old Testament principle of taking equal revenge for a wrong done (Matthew 5:38-41, Luke 9:52-56). He also said that we are all sinners and do not have the right to pass judgment on one another (Matthew 7:1-5). In the case of a woman caught in adultery (a capital offense), Jesus said to those who wanted to stone her to death,
"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." (NRSV, John 8:7-11)
The apostle Paul also warned against taking revenge for a wrong done (Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15). Likewise, the apostle Peter warned us not to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9).
2Anglico| 9.9.11 @ 8:41AM
Executing a murderer is not evil for evil. And IF you have any kids, I'm sure you'll take your own advice and visit the guy in prison who raped and murdered your daughter and then stuffed her in a garbage bag and threw it away like yesterday's trash? Sure you would.
2Anglico| 9.9.11 @ 8:51AM
Why did Jesus hold up the Roman Centurion as having more faith than most of the Jews? Why didn't he admonish him to give up his lethal trade? Wouldn't that have been the perfect time to "teach pacifism"? "So, Mr. Roman Centurion, you want me to help heal your servant? Then put down your Gladius!"
Nick| 9.9.11 @ 11:33PM
Linda,
"I am not going to argue the point of Jesus/Christ not being in the Old Testament."
Umm, there isn't really that much of an argument about whether, or not, Christ is God, among Christians. Christ is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, "eternally begotten of the Father" as the Creed states.
And, trying to use John 8 as proof that Christ was against the death penalty shows me that you need to study the Sacred Scriptures some more.
The key verse in John 8:1-11, is verse 6: "And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him." (Emphasis mine.)
The scribes and the Pharisees were trying to test Christ. What was the test? At this time in Judea, only the Romans could put people to death. Herod Antipas did not have the title of king, and could not execute anyone. He had to go to the Roman authority, i.e., Pontius Pilate. The High-Priest and the Sanhedrin didn't have this power, either.
So, the Pharisees thought that they had put Christ in a pickle. As they stated, the Law of Moses demanded that she be stoned. If Christ said to follow the Law, and stone her, the Pharisees could go to the Romans and accuse Him of subverting their power.
If Christ said not to stone her, the Pharisees could go to the people and accuse Him of disobeying the Law of Moses. The Pharisees thought that they had Him, finally. But, of course, since Christ is God, they never had a chance.
Christ says, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And, Saint John tells us that the scribes and Pharisees "went out one by one, beginning at the eldest." Why the eldest?
Because, the eldest were the first to realize that Jesus had just used mental jiu jitsu on them. If any of them had picked up a stone, Christ could have told the Romans. If they said that the Romans wouldn't allow them to stone her, they would be admitting that they cared about Roman law more than they did about the Law of Moses. They were the ones who were stuck. So they left.
The rest of your Biblical interpretations, I'm afraid, are also mistaken.
God Bless!
Margie| 9.10.11 @ 2:18PM
Linda says:
The Bible has been interpreted differently by Protestant denominations and Catholics."
God says:
"First of all you must understand this, that no Prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no Prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20 & 21.
Do you understand that? God is telling you that it isn't a matter of one's own interpretation.
His Words speak fro themselves.
Linda likes to say:
"The Bible is full of inconsistency and anyone that says otherwise is ignoring the facts."
The truth is:
"Every Word of God proves true; He is a Shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His Words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Prov. 30:5 & 6.
Better be careful, Linda!
Since what you believe about God according to your own statements, everything else in your post is simply null & void.
I pray that God opens the eyes of Linda.
Tina B| 9.10.11 @ 3:36PM
So do I, Margie.
Linda appears to want to "know" God in that intimate relationship with His Word that you have, it seems to me, achieved. So I pray that she sees that
2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"
I had to make the same journey, having been raised in Catholic elementary and high school. I wanted to know Him more intimately, and His Word was the door to that.
In those days, the 60s, reading Scripture for yourself was not encouraged, and most Catholic houses I hung out in had huge 30-pound tomes with laminated pics of the BVM (you Catholics know who I mean) on the embossed leather cover, had gold leaf page edges, and with what seemed like tiny print and few page breaks with very little white space. The heavy shiny card stock pages of maps and old paintings fascinated me, but an easy read in the ancient type verbage it was not.
Now I mostly read the NIV, refer to the Phillips translation or Barclay's, I even look up things in The Message paraphrase. Some quotes are more beautiful in King James and others I grew to love once I began reading the NIV version. My favorite mental picture of Christ comes from
Matthew 8:27 (NIV)
27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!” i put a picture of a wave and this quote on my school business cards which I paid for.
Prayer, fellowship, worship, all of that followed, but I had to let go of "churches", priests and even some pastors, days and ways of formal worship vs. worshipping Him every day in everything I do. I discovered regular Sunday and Wednesday night worship was much easier, it was all those hours in between I struggled with.
The daily diet of the Word of God is the only effective way of gaining intimacy with Our Lord. He wants it, but sometimes we must let go of other gods, like the Church, the Pope, Father this or that, or any belief not in line with Scripture.
How do we know it's not in line with Scripture? We had to become intimate with that Scripture, the living, breathing, changing power of the Word of God. He stands at the door and knocks, just waiting for us to open up and let Him in.
George2| 9.10.11 @ 5:16PM
Tina Margie
Muslims who read the Koran believe they have the word of Allah, Catholics who read the Catholic Bible believe they have the word of God, Jews who read their Bible, what we call the Old Testament, believe they have the word of God, and so on.
You are presumptuos to believe your version of the Bible is the one and only. If this makes you happy, fine.
Tina B| 9.10.11 @ 9:29PM
No, if it makes me happy but it is a lie, not fine. Not fine with me, anyway.
Only if what I believe IS the Truth, does my belief make me happy. Belief or faith is only as good as the one in whom you have faith. I have faith, and it has been proven to me, that Christ is the One, and anyone who asks for the True God to take over his or her life will receive this. It is a promise.
And I don't know about Muslims, or individual Catholics who may or may not have asked that Christ, through His Holy Spirit, come and dwell as Master in their heart and lives, but "I know whom I have believeth, and am persuaded that He is able to take that, which I've committed, unto Him, until that day." My assurance is secure. Is yours?
George2| 9.10.11 @ 11:10PM
Tina, if your'e happy go with it. You have made up you own religion reading your Bible and it works for you so who am I to complain.
I agree with you that only if what you believe is the truth then you are happy. It all comes down to faith. You have faith in what you believe.
But everybody else also has faith in what they believe, like the Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Budhists, Hindus, and even atheists. Just because you believe it is the truth doesn't make it the truth. And just because you quote something from your Bible doesn't make it the truth.
I don't know what you mean by assurance is secure.
You're happy and you aren't hurting anyone, do and believe whatever you like.
Tina B| 9.11.11 @ 10:57AM
George2,
Having faith in something can be having faith in nothing if your something really is a nothing. I mean that the Muslim, the Buddhist, the Hindus do all believe in something, but if it is false, then no matter how dedicated, faithful and persistent they are in their belief, they believe in nothing, nothing of value to reality, anyway. (Ah but what is reality?)
However, distinct from these are the (practicing) Jew and the (practicing) Catholic. They both, theoretically, believe in the One God, Jehovah, YWHW, I Am, I Am that I Am. Protestants and many non-denominational Christ followers believe in this same One God.
Jews and Christians (big umbrella here - all those who believe Christ is God and the only Son of God, born of a virgin, physical son of Joseph, natural Son of the Father) diverge here. Messiah has not yet come for the Jew, so they believe. But Messiah has come for those of us who know Christ. He is our Messiah, and the awaited one of the Israelites. They don't believe this, but it doesn't make it false. I believe this, but that doesn't make it true. So wherein lies my "assurance?" or my assurance of this salvation of my soul for eternity???
That is the real question, isn't it? Am I deluded and confused? If so my faith is meaningless.
Was Jesus deluded and confused when He said
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14: 6 (NIV)
That is the even more important question. If you believe He was deluded, or a liar, or those words are only words on paper (or papyrus or stone), that does not make it so. And if it is you who are deluded, or the Muslim, or the Hindu, or the Jew or the Catholic, or for that matter the nondenominational Christian, like David Koresh, then it is in your best interest to find the Truth. The Reality of life itself.
Are we just here, by accident, through evolution, with no real purpose but to exist, take pleasure, suffer pain, and die? Or are we here with the explicit purpose of knowing and loving our Creator, and serving Him in total freedom through His grace and strength, indwelt by His Holy Spirit, every hair on our head numbered like the stars in the sky?
I have come to believe, after 61 years of life in several countries and states, from England to Australia, to Cali and finally to Florida, that Christ is exactly who He claimed to be, and is God (I have no problem with that little 3 letter word, it means everything to me) who is my Creator, Redeemer and Lord.
Furthermore, though I have walked through the valley of the shadow of death, He was there with me. And I know that He is here with me. And He will be with me through eternity. I can't picture eternity, but then I couldn't picture any of the techno that I use today until it got here.
If you, George2, are a seeker of the Truth, and your words to me were kind and polite so you strike me as sensitive, you do owe it to yourself to check out the Creator, and get to know Him through His living Word.
It ain't just another book. It is His book, His story. The real history.
George2| 9.11.11 @ 12:55PM
Tina. You are a sweet lady.
Tina B| 9.11.11 @ 7:21PM
Thank you, G.
W| 9.11.11 @ 7:40PM
Tina B/G2.
Interesting and informative and civil exchange.
Tina. You described very well our search for the truth better than many philosphers and you raise many important questions on evolution, creation, and purpose of life. I hope to see your comments again on these issues and to respond, but today, after the Steelers loss the low-life Baltimore Raves, I cannot comment very well.
W| 9.11.11 @ 7:41PM
Ravens, not Raves.
Tina B| 9.11.11 @ 8:22PM
I am sorry, I wave my white towel in sympathy.
I love football.
Aaron| 9.10.11 @ 11:52AM
Nick, You may know your New Testament but you certainly don't know the Jewish Bible. We don't believe that Jesus is the Christ or G-d. You may believe that in what you call the Old Testament when G-d speaks it's the same as Jesus. Jews don't believe that. You and everybody else here that call themselves "Christians" are reading our Bible through you Christian lens.
Nick| 9.11.11 @ 12:12AM
Aaron,
"We don't believe that Jesus is the Christ or G-d."
I never claimed otherwise. I presume that Linda considers herself a Christian. If she does not, I stand corrected. So, I was arguing as one Christian to another. I made no claims about Judaism.
As a Roman Catholic, I consider myself a spiritual Semite, as Pope Pius XI proudly proclaimed, in 1938. I am constantly learning about 1st century Judaism, in order to understand the Gospels more completely.
I hope that clears things up.
Shalom, and G-d Bless.
Aaron| 9.11.11 @ 9:06PM
Nick,
Excuse my abrupt language. I've read your comments. You certainly know the Bible and explain the Catholic view well and with grace and patience.
Shalom.
Nick| 9.11.11 @ 10:32PM
Aaron,
Thank you for the kind words and your response. And, no excuses are necessary on your part. I took no umbrage over your abrupt language.
Take care.
Tina B| 9.12.11 @ 11:12AM
Yes, Nick, and there were, in the Old Testament, even visits by Christ to earth, and this is referred to as a theophony. Whenever the OT refers to the "Spirit of the Lord" coming to someone, it was Christ in a pre-birth on earth appearance.
And the commission to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" was explained in the parable of the good Samaritan. Anyone who is abused unfairly and in need of our help is our neighbor at any moment in time, and a good neighbor responds as the good Samaritan stranger did in Jesus' parable.
This has nothing whatsoEVER to do with the death penalty, Linda.
Out of context, or ignorant of who Christ is and how long He has been around, your comments should not be based on Scripture, because the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New.
When Christ says every last penny will be paid, He speaks not of pennies, but consequences of our actions on earth. For those who become saved by Christ's atoning death on the cross almost two thousand years ago, we are saved from hell and promised eternity with Christ in heaven, but not from all consequences here on earth.
I have paid dearly on earth for many of my sins, and I thank God for that or I'd still be doing some of those things today. I am not sin free, like all humans except Jesus, and yet I have been made new and do not live in sin as I once did.
The death penalty is a result of man's behavior on earth, and doesn't necessarily mean condemnation for eternity. In fact, some death-row inmates seem to go to their death joyful and longing to meet their Savior, having begged Him for forgiveness, and having received it as promised. God reads the heart. The body is just a temporary vessel in a lifespan that is referred to as a vapor, in relation to Eternity.
Margie| 9.9.11 @ 1:58PM
"Before Abraham was, I am." Jn. 8:58.
And Who do you think was with God in the beginning (adding to the verse that Nick posted from Jn.1?)
gen. 1:26: "And God said, let Us make man in
Our image, according to Our likeness; and
let them have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the birds of the heavens,
and over the cattle, and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing creeping on
the earth."
When you see the word, the LORD, it includes Jesus.
"And, behold, I am coming quickly, and
My reward is with Me, to give to each one
as his work is.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the
Beginning and the End, the First and the
Last". Rev. 22:12 & 13.
And love doesn't mean giving anyone a pass. In fact it means the exact opposite. It means you care enough to tell them they are wrong, or doing wrong.
Love isn't nice, flowery words. It means speaking the truth even when it doesn't feel good~ because you care about where someone is headed, and you don't want them to perish.
Love is laying down your life for your friends, like Jesus did for us.
Mike| 9.8.11 @ 8:59PM
Excuse me while I stall for time to figure out how to disavow the parts of the President's job proposal that were crafted by Republicans
Kyle| 9.23.11 @ 12:03AM
"(And, he might have added, DNA evidence also is now used to ensure that innocent defendants aren't executed.)"
I'm so sick of hearing this argument about DNA, DNA evidence isn't available in most cases, in fact, only 5-10% of all criminal cases have DNA evidence available, what about the other 90-95% of cases without DNA that can nevertheless still be subjected to the death penalty?
And I don't buy that Texas' justice system is accurate or fair when it comes to meting out death, either; try telling the family members of Frank Basil McFarland (executed inmate PROVEN innocent, link down below) that his trial was fair (or any of the other pour souls' listed down below for that matter):
http://officeofstrategicinflue.....thpenalty/
yisong| 10.27.11 @ 2:25AM
Discussion Bearing failure of general conditions
The gradual expansion of the surface spalling, and often extended to the deep, forming deep peeling. Contact fatigue spalling is a failure of deep fatigue source. http://www.1stbearing.com