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The Spectacle Blog
Israel’s core settlement within the West Bank — known as Ariel — is about to become a little bigger, with the state’s recent approval of 277 new buildings. This construction on disputed lands marks the third new settlement expansion project announced in the past week, or so. Just four days before Defense Minister Ehud Barak signed off on the Ariel expansion, the final go-ahead was given for some 1600 new settler homes to be built in East Jerusalem.
Naturally, the Obama administration has pressed the Israeli government to halt the expansion of Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. While the president grasps for anything resembling an authentic symbol of a peace process that disintegrated years ago, the administration’s has turned up the volume on public complaints about these expansive settlements. Of course, Washington’s objections are muddled by an unwritten agreement on the issue between Israel the United States reached during the Bush administration.
Further complicating the matter of West Bank settlement expansion, is the looming September UN vote on the future of Palestinian statehood. For its bid to be successful, Palestine must secure a two-thirds majority from the 192 member General Assembly. It will likely exceed the 128 votes required to achieve that goal.
Honestly, however, the vote is irrelevant.
Palestinian “statehood,” such as it might be, would be immediately vetoed by the United States at the Security Council level. I’m not prognosticating here. President Obama has already said as much. But despite the fact that this distinctively token resolution on Palestinian statehood has already failed to launch, its consequences will be very real.
As far as I can tell, the mere discussion of a Palestinian state has come at Israel’s expense. Passage of the measure would demonstrate the Jewish state’s growing isolation from the international community. Conversely, rejection of the resolution would undoubtedly escalate simmering tensions in the West Bank and Gaza.
But maybe there’s another solution that exists in a parallel universe beyond the hysterical blindness of the Israel question.
I’d like to suggest alternative: a one state solution, that would witness Israel’s acceptance of Palestinians into Jewish society with the same rights and privileges that Israelis, themselves, enjoy. Bear with me…
Suffice to stay, a splintered Palestine divided between Hamastan and Fatahland, is untenable. At best, its stunted economy and lack of resources would render it a blight on an already scarred region. At worst, the tenuous alliance between equally unpopular ruling parties would collapse into violence, amidst the present instability of an uncertain Middle East. In other words, the facts on the ground eliminate the whole “two state solution” hypothesis, despite D.C.’s most dogged diplomatic efforts to the contrary.
As far as I can tell, the inevitability of a one-state solution is generally accepted within the Palestinian Authority. Most of the Palestinians don’t particularly care for the notion of a fractured “homeland” premised on ‘67 borders. They also don’t like their homegrown political leadership. To the contrary, most simply want the same basic rights and protection Israelis enjoy, and would take the Knesset for lack of a better alternative.
Palestinians don’t hold a monopoly on this understanding of a one state solution that grants all parties, Jewish or otherwise, equal rights under the law. European diplomats and U.N. staffers are privately discussing the one-state solution. Prominent Jewish professionals in Israel and abroad have offered the most profound endorsements of this solution.
To be clear, I’m not just pontificating from an academic ivory tower on the matter of Israel and Palestine. I recently returned from a summer spent living and working in Bethlehem, just west of the separation wall that divides the West Bank from Israel. In the permanent Palestinian refugee camp where I lived, a plain truth has emerged that’s eluded American diplomats, human-rights activists and academics, alike. The two state solution was DOA from the start. My trip only amplified the death knells I thought I’d been hearing for years.
So why is Mahmoud Abbas pushing for Palestinian statehood at the United Nations? Short answer: I couldn’t begin to tell you.
There are legitimate concerns that a U.S. rejection of Palestine’s membership bid - lacking a suitable alternative - would provoke a violent response. Mr. Abbas is a weak ruler, and widely mistrusted by many Palestinians. His Palestinian Authority could potentially lose control of any broad-based Palestinian street movement.
What I can promise is that Palestine won’t be granted statehood next month and Israel will need to respond accordingly to mounting international pressure given condemnation of recent settlement plans and the near-certain rejection of Palestine’s UN resolution.
Despite concerns about the demographic threat a one-state solution holds for the prevailing Jewish majority within Israel, it is not longer tenable to debate terms based on the presumed convenience of disagreement.
View all comments (52) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by Reid Smith
http://spectator.org/blog/2011/08/16/israels-one-state-solution
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Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 4:59PM
Why the hell would Israelis want murderers of children as citizens of their State?
The Palis want all of their territory Judenrein. I'm glad you were out in Bethlehem---you learned NOTHING. These folks lie. This is a no brainer. It's what the BDS guys advocate, and it will result in murder of thousands of Jews.
Jack in Wi.| 8.16.11 @ 11:30PM
Nonsence: This is the sanest comment I have seen in years. A one state solution with equal rights for all. Then this little sparta on the Med. can put it's money into homes and schools instead of bombs. No group spoke more forcefully for equal rights in South Africa and the American South then Jews. It would be wondeful if they practised what they preached. I pray every day for peace, justice and reconciliation in Israel Palistine. I have been preaching for such a solution for years on internet forum.
Joe Hamilton| 8.17.11 @ 6:44AM
You sound like a total fool. The trespassing Arabs who have no historic claim to any part of the Jewish national homeland, only want to kill any Jews who refuses to leave their own homeland of 3,000 years. Jack, I have a solution to the racist assault of whites by black "flash mobs" in Wisconsin. The flash mobs and their victims should live together so the racist thugs could be supported by their victims. My suggestion makes as much sense as yours.
Jack in Wi.| 8.17.11 @ 7:55AM
More nonsese and lies. You don't let a few criminals speank for a whole group. If that were true the criminals who run Israel would speak for all Jews. We all know that isn't true. Again the only sane solution is for one state with equal religious, political, and civil rights for all. It should include massive reparation to the people who have lived there for 2000 years, the Palistinians. They have had to suffer much murder, theft, and torture the last 63 years.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 5:00PM
The one state solution is accepted by the thugs in the PA because it is an intermediate step in murdereing all the Jews.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 5:02PM
Sorry, "murdering."
By the way, Reid, did you ask any Jewish Israelis their opinion? I doubt it. The reason the Wall is up is to prevent Terrorist murders!
Johnny V| 8.16.11 @ 5:49PM
Dear Mr. Tool,
I also lived in Israel and the West Bank this last year. And I did ask Jewish Israelis their opinion. Initially, the reared back at the concept of Palestinians being humans who are being oppressed and lashing out because of it. But as we continued our conversations, he admitted that he did over-vilify the Palestinians. The wall is not the reason for the end of suicide bombings, the end of the second intifada is. I personally know Palestinians who cross between Israel and the West Bank without Israel's knowledge, and the only thing stopping them from suicide bombings is the people they are. They are perfectly capable of blowing themselves up inside of Israel if they want to.
Cheers.
P.S. Mr. Smith, the names Fatahland and Hamastan are completely fallacious and undermine your entire argument. I expect better from you. It is quite clear that they would be named Hamasland and Fatahstan. The conveniently placed "s" in Hamastan is no excuse for that name.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 6:55PM
Well, I'm not sure how it is possible to overvilify scumbags who murder 3 month olds by beheading. Fact remains, fence has cut down attacks. The Palis don't attack because they know Israel can ratchet tighter, NOT out of the goodness of their hearts. Or may be they don't want to die, some of them. Takes a lot of brainwashing to overcome survival instinct.
One state is a very bad idea.
I disagree with you about the wall. The timing is too obvious. By the way, the suggester of the wall was Charles Krauthammer in Time. It was "Build a wall to the Sky."
Trust me, wherever they would blow themselves up, Israel would put up more defensive barriers.
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:27PM
I wouldn't quote Charlse K. on this issue. He's too deeply biased. I also lived and worked with Palestinians. I promise that they don't hate Jews like you think, and virtually (statistically) none of them are willing to "blow themselves-up". I did not meet a single terrorist wannabe while I was there.
Jack in Wi.| 8.16.11 @ 11:33PM
I eat in a Palistinian resturant very frequently. They are wonderful people. I lived in aheavily Jewish neighborhood for many years. I found most to be good neighbors.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 5:11PM
And, finally, another reason the Israelis are not gonna listen to you:
Monthly Jihad Report
July, 2011 Jihad Attacks: 167
Countries: 21
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 705
Critically Injured: 1090
The Israelis want no part of that. These people suck as neighbors.
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:28PM
Sounds kind of racist if you ask me...
Thanks, I'll be here all night as the "thorn" of reason in your ideological "side". Take care, Occam.
Clint| 8.16.11 @ 5:24PM
Which Gutless Coward Israel Firster Was Posting Under My Name Today, Kenny Tool Job
It Better Not Be You.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 5:46PM
Why, will you gnaw at my ankle?
Clint, I couldn't lower my IQ ENOUGH to be mistaken for you. Now go away and let the grownups post.
Clint| 8.16.11 @ 6:03PM
Sure You Would Lower Yourself Gutless Coward Tool Job.
That's What Little Sneaky Israel Firster Traitor Bastards Like You Do.
You, Dr.Reich Or Allen Brooks Are On The Suspect List.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 6:59PM
But Clint---
I already told you
It wasn't Me.
When you can fly like a Butterfly
And sting like a Bee,
Why would you try
To have Twig as your Family Tree?
Thank you, Thank you, I'm here all week---be sure to tip your waitress.
See, Clint, I would never imitate you---your pathetic mind is encompassed and fully understood by me---and I create another "Clint's mind" everytime I defecate.
I have never pretended to be you. Why would I want the name of a Terrorist catamite, little man?
Clint| 8.16.11 @ 7:34PM
However, You're A Serial Slandering Liar Sneaky Little Runt Traitor Bastard Neo-Chickenhawk Coward, Tool Job.
Your Excuse Is Suspect & You're On The Suspect List.
Don't Leave Town.
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:24PM
That type of comment not so helpful to people like me who are trying to prove them wrong with things like "facts" and "reasons". I'm pro-human rights and anti-apartheid/anti-occupation, but I think you are doing a disservice to Palestinian advocacy.
... so please stop.
Clint| 8.17.11 @ 1:13AM
No Little Luis, I Won't.
This Traitor Bastard Neo-Chickenhawk Coward Israel Firster,Tool Job Has Chronically & Serially Attempted To Slander, Smear & Marginalize Our Tea Party Co-Favorite & Presidential Candidate Dr.Ron Paul.
Stay Outta This Fight, You Interfering Smug Little Asshole.
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
Carpe Diem.
Luis| 8.17.11 @ 1:58AM
So you're asking me to stay out of a fight between you: a libertarian tea-party fanatic - and him: an islamophobic zionist fanatic...
I would be more than happy to.
P.S. Ron Paul sucks.
Clint| 8.17.11 @ 6:08AM
Get Bent Asshole.
Luis| 8.17.11 @ 2:01AM
In other news, it is bad form to capitalize every letter in a sentence... unless your comments are the titles to really sh**ty books about returning to the gold standard and not understanding economics... in which case, you would be well within your rights to do so.
Have a great life caring too much about internet debates.
Clint| 8.17.11 @ 6:07AM
Get Bent Asshole.
Joe Hamilton| 8.17.11 @ 6:58AM
Clint; you are a sick cowardly scumbag. You act tough because you know you are safe making you stupid psychotic comments because it is on the internet. I guarantee you would piss in your pants if one of the targets of your psychotic ramblings was facing your in person.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 8:50PM
Is this another fake post, Clint, or a real one?
Clint| 8.16.11 @ 10:25PM
You Seem To Be The Gutless Coward Poseur Around Here,Tool Job, You Tell Us What You're Up To, Asshole.
And Don't Leave Town.
Solo| 8.16.11 @ 6:00PM
It should be one state; Israel.
There is really no such thing as the "Palestinian People". They're actually Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian refugees or just generic "Arabs" who happened to be squatting in the geographical region referred to as "Palestine".
In fact...the name "Palestine" is purely a western invention in the first place. The "Arabs" didn't name it, a Roman Governor did in order to piss off the Jews. Later, Greek traders referred to the area on their maps as "Syrian-Palestine".
The entire modern day "Palestinian People" narrative is a political construct: a club with which to beat the Jews over the head. Nothing more.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 8:52PM
They are Arabs, not a People. If Israel were to disappear, Syria/Jordan/or Egypt would take over and that would be the last you would hear as the protesters were murdered.
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 10:48PM
Hi Solo,
So I would beg to differ. I lived with a family in a town called Beit Sahour. Their family name is Bannoura and they trace their family history to the time of the crusades. They lived in the land when it was under Ottoman Turkish rule as Palestine, when the British took over as the Mandate of Palestine, and then under occupation. I really don't think that they, or any other Palestinian I met, would take kindly to being called squatters.
I don't know what history you read, but I actually read Israeli historians. The real refugees are the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians driven from their villages in 1948. Here are a few links for you. This is a Jewish-Israeli group that tries to preserve the history of those Arabs driven from their lands.
http://zochrot.org/en
They even a wikipedia page for people like you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zochrot
Also, get to reading some Ilan Pappe. He teaches at Tel Aviv University and talks a lot about the real refugees in this conflict.
Wishing you the best,
Luis
Ron Lewenberg | 8.20.11 @ 12:32AM
Do you cite anti-American communists to attack America, or just anti-Israel (and anti-American) communists to attack Israel and fabricate history. Pappe has been caught lying dozens of times.
http://www.camera.org/index.as.....rticle=994
http://www.zionism-israel.com/.....00292.html
Morgan F| 8.16.11 @ 6:53PM
Dear Solo,
This is an argument that I heard a lot from Israelis and their supporters while I also lived immediately on the other side of the Wall. As an American, I find this argument to be somewhat worrying. By your definition should I expect to be turned out of my home as soon as someone else wants to come settle here? We are certainly a nation of squatters on this land even by my own admission, not to mention the opinion of the Native Americans who once lived here. And yet there are virtually no legitimate countries who question the American nation and its existence, certainly not Israel. Centuries of occupation do not delegitimize the Palestinian people, only make them more pitiable. While 300 years ago the ancestors of this country were able to almost totally eradicate the people they found living in their "land without a people," three centuries have passed since then and many recognizable genocides have occurred and there simply isn't room for the same kind of tactics to be implemented by a modern state. Additionally, archaeological evidence suggests that the Jewish people originally come from the same backgrounds as those squatters. Life is funny sometimes, huh?
Solo| 8.16.11 @ 7:50PM
Dear Morgan F,
Thank you for your considered response.
Perhaps my use of the term "squatters" was a bit harsh. Moreover....it is not my intent to suggest that these "Palestinians" are not human or worthy of our empathy, in most cases.
Most, I would suspect, are victims of circumstance and would much prefer to live in peace and security. A situation they had, by the way, before the surrounding Arabs decided that they were going to push the Jews into the sea.
What gets me the most...and what I believe is the greatest barrier to peace...is the use of the term "Palestinian" to describe one of the two parties involved in the conflict. The reason it bothers me so much is that it obscures the true nature of the conflict.
To wit....should they establish a State Of Palestine, it would be the first time any such state or Nationality of people would have ever existed.
Conversely...Israel wasn't "created" in 1948. It was restored. And it was restored to a land mass that no one wanted...least of all the Arabs. It was largely a wasteland before the Jews began migrating back after 900 years of exile.
The Israelis had existed there for more than 2000 years prior to Muhammad's birth. The Jewish state dates back to before the time of Macabees when Israel stretched from the southern tip of the Sinai to the southern bank of the Euphrates river.
The so-called "Palestinians" more or less appeared out of whole cloth at about the time Israel was restored....at least rhetorically.
To claim (as most do today) that the Israelis are "occupiers" of Palestine is directly analogous to claiming that West Virginia are "occupiers" ruling over the "Appalachian people". It's absurd on its face. And yet.....
Hell....most people don't know (or care to ignore) that these Jordanians/"Palestinians" tried to migrate back to their national home and King Hussien of Jordon had his military open up on them (his own people) with artillery in order to drive them back to Israel. I recall reading that more than 10,000 died in that action alone.
The remaining Arab countries refuse to accept them in exile from the "Horrible baby-eating Joooos".
The hard, cold fact is that the Israelis treat them better than their own home countries do.
Funny how that gets lost in the world's narrative, huh?
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:01PM
"It was largely a wasteland before the Jews began migrating back after 900 years of exile."
Make sure you have Zionist history down before you say what did or did not happen. Zionist Organizations in Europe were looking for a place to focus their nationalism. Two rabbis were sent on an expedition to examine the holy land. The two rabbis, visiting Palestine in 1897, observed that the land was like a bride, 'beautiful, but married to another man'. By which they meant that, if a place was to be found for Israel in Palestine, where would the people of Palestine go? Early on, Zionist organizations new that this was a populated land, and I can guarantee, after working in Aida Refugee Camp, the people who were driven out by Irgun and Haganah in 1948 really wanted that land... they didn't want to get driven out by military gangs.
The truth is, that the Palestinians I met and lived with know their heritage. They do not consider their identity a political tool, or a means to kick the jews into the sea. Rather, they take pride in their deep connection to the land. I know that in the group I traveled with, the two jewish men that were with us were treated like everyone else. No threats, no unsettled moments of anti-semitism, no nothing.
I would suggest that you travel to the West Bank yourself and interview a few Palestinians and read up on the history of the land of Palestine. It would do wonders for the content of your comments.
Solo| 8.17.11 @ 11:18AM
Luis...thank you for your comments.
I'm not the least surprised that some "Palestinians" and Israelis get along.
I'm no the least surprised that these Jordanians had strong ties to the land they were living on.
I don't deny that bad things have happened throughout this conflict.
I don't deny that some Israelis don't accept the notion that they live under an existential threat from the Muslims.
But...that doesn't make them correct in their belief.
Others, would certainly disagree and, although I respect the perspective of someone who has actually been there and talked to "several" or "a couple" of "Palestinians", I also respect the concept of a "non-representative sample".
I don't deny the history of the search for a Jewish homeland as you have offered it. Yes...the Jews were searching for a homeland and yes....a natural choice would have been the traditional Holy Land of the Jews. It's not like they decided to go to the Holy land by random choice.
Yes...there were people living there. There have been people living there for over 10,000 years.
My description of the area as being a "wasteland" was essentially true, although, the description "under-utilized" would probably have been more precise.
The area had religious significance but was not being utilized in any organized way by any particular group. It was, after all, a largely ignored adjunct to the Ottoman Empire.
These things you relayed are true but, true as they are, first..they don't tell the whole story and they in no way contradict the history that I have relayed.
And, contrary to your closing comment, I am quite familiar with the history of that region. You just don't like the conclusions I have drawn from that history. But...the facts remain:
That is the traditional homeland of the Jewish people. It has been the traditional homeland of the Jewish people for over 3000 years.
There has never been a nation of Palestine and, therefore, there has never been a "Palestinian people". Regardless of how they self-identify, the entire "Palestinian people" narrative is a rhetorical construct being used for political purposes.
And..I point out to you that not every so-called "Palestinian" need embrace that initiative for my description to be effectively true.
The history of that region runs deep and, because of that, it is quite muddled, for the most part. But....it shares that "muddled" status with one other constant: The Jewish people.
If they don't belong there, then where do they belong?
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 6:57PM
I live next to three American Indian reservations, including one that is an independent nation.
Trust me, if Israel was faced with a question of survival, it might do many things, just as we Americans nuked Japan and carpetbombed Germany.
Most of the Palestinians relocated there because of superior economic opportunities where the Jewish settlers were. They were not there from Time Immemorial.
Incidentally, once upon a time Baghdad was 40% Jewish. What happened?
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:17PM
... and when Baghdad had that significant Jewish population, they were living under Arab-Muslim rulers for centuries. They weren't persecuted for a long time after 1948. That's when Israel encouraged immigration to the new Jewish state.
Jews in Israel are not under the kind of existential threat that you suggest. I've been there and talked to many of them, IDF soldiers as well.
In a tangential comment, I think that William of Okham (the namesake of the philosophical principal which your pseudonym invokes) would not approve of your unsubstantiated overly simplistic theories. Just a thought.
Clint| 8.17.11 @ 1:20AM
William of Ockham Was A Franciscan Friar Condemned As A Heretic In 1326 And Excommunicated.
Tool Job Is A Jew Smart Ass,Who Uses A Catholic Heretic's Moniker.
Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 6:58PM
My point in the first sentence, which I forgeot to elaborate or edit out, is that on one of those reservations, the Natives are on their original land.
W| 8.16.11 @ 10:04PM
The Arabs residing in Israel already have more civil rights than the Arabs in any country ruled by the Arabs. Why don't Arabist writers like you, and the UN, concentrate on improving the lives and rights of Arabs in countries ruled by Arabs, such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt,etc.?
W| 8.16.11 @ 10:05PM
oops, directed to Reid Smith, not you OT
Luis| 8.16.11 @ 11:22PM
Are you sure about that? My experience in Israel/Palestine is different.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl.....45,00.html
Also, the Jewish National Fund effectively controls over 90% of the land in Israel and that land is for Jewish use only... If that doesn't smack of "second class citizen" I don't know what does. The argument that they have it better than other Arab countries does nothing to prove the "democratic-ness" of the Jewish state.
W| 8.17.11 @ 12:27PM
Luis,
By civil rights we usually mean the right to vote, own property, enter into contracts, practice your religion, express your opinions, trial by jury with counsel, marry who you wish, etc. It does not mean someone has to like you. Civil rights deal with the relation between you and the government, and the government basically staying out of your life so you can work, marry, vote, express your opinon, and live free.
Can you name one Arab country where the arabs, and other people, have all these rights, especially women, be specific about the country and the rights of people in that country.
Luis| 8.17.11 @ 6:44PM
Funny story, it doesn't matter how the Arabs live in other countries. It's pretty awful, I agree, although people in Lebanon enjoy quite a bit of freedom relative to their neighbors. You are distracting from the point. For the purposes of our argument about how Arabs are treated in any other country are of no consequence.
I am not even talking about how Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation. I'm just talking about Palestinian Arabs living in Israel. They are not allowed to marry who they want how they want like Jewish citizens are (because all marriages have to go through the Orthodox Rabbinate). They are not allowed to build houses on certain land like Jewish citizens are... in fact, on passports, they list their citizenship (Israeli) and then their nationality (Arab).
In what other country does your nationality matter? Here in America, it doesn't matter. You can be an immigrant from any place on earth and build where you want, and in some states, marry who you want.
W| 8.17.11 @ 8:42PM
So, Luis, you think it is "funny story" how Arabs are treated in countries ruled by the Arabs. I thought you were concerned about how the Arabs, which Palestinians are a member of, are treated. That you dismiss as of no consequence how they are treated shows you are merely interested in attacking Israel.
Are women allowed to dress as they please, go out on their own, and date in your Arab countries?
The nationality matters because of the repeated terrorrist attacks "Arabs." It is called profiling based on experience and reality.
Jack in Wi.| 8.17.11 @ 1:11AM
Luis: Wonderful comments and proof of how these poor souls who delude themselves on this site, try to justify all the theft, torture, and murder of the last 63 years. 2 4 6 8 let's integrate the Israeli state. Stop the terror. Stop the hate. Integrate the Israeli state.
Solo| 8.17.11 @ 10:36AM
Project much, Jack?
After your ludicrous comments up-thread, you are in no position to be criticizing anyone's historic acumen.
What I stated is historically accurate.
If that isn't the traditional Jewish homeland, then explain Solomon's Temple. Explain the Kingdom of David, the kingdom of Judea. Explain the Temple Mount (now covered over by the "Dome Of The Rock").
Show me an example of an ancient Palestinian excavation. Who was their first ruler? What were the boundaries of the original "Palestinian state". Show me an example of the first "Palestinian currency"....or the first recorded "Palestinian art".
It doesn't exist!
It doesn't exist because the entire "Palestinian" narrative is a freakin lie.
Palestine is a geographical region, not a people or a state or a traditional homeland. It was named by a Roman governor and was originally called "Philistine" after a foreign trading culture who had invaded Israel and butchered most of its people. Later, it became commonly known as Philistia....and then Palestine.
The people who were living there at the time of the restoration of the state of Israel were mostly Jordanian...with a few Egyptians, Lebanese and Syrians thrown in.
So....it's actually more accurate to say that; Jordanian refugees want to carve off portions of the State of Israel for themselves.
It simply isn't true that the Israelis are "illegal occupiers" of Palestine, at least, it's no more true than it is that the Iraqi's are "Illegal Occupiers" on their land...or the Saudis in Saudi Arabia. The same is true of Jordan and "Trans-Jordan". These aren't ancient nation states. They were created out of thin air by the Western powers; mostly following the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
The entire reason for the conflict over Israel is that fundamentalist Muslims are not willing to tolerate the existence of a sovereign Jewish state.
Jews have lived there all along (a few of them) but they did so under submission to Islam and they paid the Dhimmi tax to the Muslims.
Now..bad things have happened..on both sides...throughout this conflict. But..those bad things would stop tomorrow if the Muslims would let it. They won't.
Until they do, bad things are going to continue to happen.
But...to attempt to frame the debate in terms of the Israelis as illegal occupiers of Palestine and oppressors of the "Palestinian people" is to deliberately obscure both history and current events.
Moreover...it reveals a thinly veiled anti-Semitic bent disguised as compassion for another; the so-called "Palestinians".
If you would pick up a history book instead of re-reading your copy of "The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion", you might have a perspective worth discussing on this subject.
Until then, perhaps you should abstain and stop making an ass of yourself.
And that goes double for the fella down-thread who claims that "...the Israelis enjoy making war".; a statement too singularly asinine to merit a refutation.
Luis| 8.18.11 @ 2:26AM
Wow. After reading your comment, I'm going to seriously question my faith in humanity. Do you hear yourself when you speak?
"The entire reason for the conflict over Israel is that fundamentalist Muslims are not willing to tolerate the existence of a sovereign Jewish state....
bad things would stop tomorrow if the Muslims would let it. They won't."
Really? It's the Muslims? You don't hear the Islamophobia in that? You don't see the sweeping generalization you engendered? I met Muslims who prepared feasts for visiting Jews while I was in Palestine. In my summer living day in and day out with Palestinians, I did not meet a single one that was seriously out to get the Jews. Not a one. Sure they exist, but in such a small percentage that they cannot possibly be 'the problem'. Maybe that problem is the entire enterprise creating and artificially maintaining a state with a ethno-religious character at the expense of its other citizens. Maybe the problem is the persistance of the Zionist project.
Oh wait, I think i just revealed "a thinly veiled anti-Semitic bent disguised as compassion for another; the so-called 'Palestinians'." No, I'm not an anti-semite. I have close friends who are Zionist Jews and while we disagree, we respect one another. They don't think I'm anti-semitic. If Spain tomorrow decided that it needed to preserve its Spanish character by kicking out all the Basques, I would be on the next plane ride to Spain to protest it... and guess what, I'm Spanish.
It is shameful to use a label as important and serious a 'anti-semitism' to serve your narrow nationalistic purpose. I only take comfort in my belief that Israel, as it exists, is on the wrong side of history. I have faith that one day, it will not be a land for Jews exclusively, but for any human being regardless of who their mother was or how they pray.
I'm sorry you've been taught to think this way, and I hope that you can see past the injustices of the past and look towards a more equitable future. Until then, don't fucking call human rights defenders racists. It pisses me off.
With that, I'm done with this comment thread. Reid, keep it up buddy. I want to see 50 more articles of this caliber.
Andrew S| 8.17.11 @ 3:24AM
A few questions that I would love to have answered. Maybe Occum could help me out or Solo.
First of all.
What makes a Jew? Is it lineage? Religion? A certain percentage of blood? Whether your Mom is considered Jewish? Can you convert to Judaism? Who is a Jew?
Second of all. What is it that Israel truly wants?
I can try and answer those questions for you myself. Let me take a shot, and I would love to hear your answers as well.
1. If you are considered a Jew because of your religion, then only 20% of Israel should be living there, because 80% of Israel is secular and wants nothing to do with the Jewish religion. Being Jewish has nothing to do with religion. You could technically be Muslim and have Jewish heritage. Or Christian with Jewish heritage. Heck Hindu or Buddhist and still be Jewish. This is because being Jewish could also have to do with bloodline. Well to bust this myth, National Geographic did a study. They found what they were fairly certain to be the original gene pool of the Jews during the time of Jesus. Who were the Jews. Heck who were the Gentiles. It does not matter. They looked exactly the same, you could only tell who was who because of the way they dressed and spoke. Regardless. Who lived in the land at the time of Jesus. They found the DNA sample and compared that to the people living in the land today. You will be extremely surprised to hear this, but, Jews only carried about 30% of the genes found to belong to the original inhabitants of the land at the time of Jesus. The Palestinians on the other hand carried 70% of the genes that the original inhabitants of the land carried. So who is really Jewish? And what does it mean to be a Jew?
2. Israel obviously wants something. It is no secret they enjoy war. They have actually been in war with someone from the day they existed, continuing until today. What are they searching for in all this war. Well, in simplest forms here is what they want. Israel wants all the land. From the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, North to Lebanon and South to Egypt. Some people actually claim Israel has the right to more than that, going all the way to present day Iraq. Do you know what the two stripes on the Israeli flag represent? Look it up, you will be surprised.
They also want to be a purely Jewish state. The fallacy of the argument that some Palestinians do not recognize Israel, is because the West does not understand why they do not recognize Israel. All Palestinians recognize Israel. They do not deny Israel one bit. What they do deny is that Israel has the right to be a Jewish state. Why? Because their brothers and sisters live in the state of Israel. There have been laws passed in Israel that say, "If you do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, you can be deported from the country." This leads me to my last point.
Israel wants to be a democracy.
Now to sum this all up. You can not have all three of those things. You must choose two. If you want to be a democracy and a purely Jewish state, then you can not have all the land, because the people that are not Jewish need a place to go. And they are not just going to pick up and leave.
If you want to be a Jewish state and have all the land, then you can not be a democracy. You must somehow govern those who are not Jewish. This is currently the way things are headed. Israel is not a true democracy because not all those in the country have equal rights. Jews are treated much differently than not Jews (let me clarify that I used this term because it is not limited to Arabs, european christians are also given Palestinian ID's.)
If you want all the land, and want to be a democracy, then you for sure can not be a Jewish state. That should be self explanatory. What if President Obama got up and gave a speech tonight and said, "fellow Americans, quick announcement, we have just become a Christian state. All non-Christians must leave immediately." How would that fly? Well that is currently being done in Israel. Anyway. Thanks for reading.
I would love to hear your answers to the questions I posed as well.
Thanks.
Andrew
JimH| 8.17.11 @ 11:44AM
Interspersed among the rants there are some very cogent and interesting points being made. One thing that will need to be part of any long term solution is secure and enforceable property rights at the individual level along with the removal of trade restrictions. When people are taking care of their families, earning a living and making money they are too busy to blow up other people.
Mike 71| 8.17.11 @ 6:45PM
In a perverse form of "blowback," Palestinian "rejectionists" have helped craft a "one state" solution: a state for Israelis, but none for themselves. Until Palestinians are able to demonstrate an ability and a willingness to live in peace in their own state alongside their Israeli neighbors, they are undeserving of statehood. In that instance, the best solution would be for Gaza and the West Bank to revert to Egyptian and Jordanian control respectively, and to their pre-1967 "Six Day War' status-quo, as parts of those nations in a "three state" solution!
Luis| 8.18.11 @ 1:44AM
Quick question, what how do a people demonstrate this "willingness"? Would a few extremists be able to derail this perceived willingness? It seems like you're suggesting that if Palestinians aren't able to prove themselves worthy of their own state (whatever that even means), their right to self-determination should be stripped of them.
Also, your solution does nothing in accounting for the 400,000 Israelis illegally living in the West Bank, nor does it account for the fact that neither Jordan nor Egypt would want the new territory and its people BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JORDANIAN OR EGYPTIAN. They are Palestinian. They have been for quite a long time.
Eric Scott| 8.30.11 @ 10:39PM
Under the current circumstances, a one state solution would mean the annihilation of the Jewish right to self determination if not a bloodbath. Unfortunately there is not one state in the Middle East that offers equal rights or security to any religious or ethnic minority. It is profoundly naive if not plain foolish to think otherwise. A two state solution is the only game in town.