The American Spectator

Interested Conservative| 5.6.11 @ 10:58AM

It's the pitching. Babe was halfway to the HOF when he stopped pitching.

Only Jim Brown with Lacrosse seems to match that varied virtuosity.

Sean| 5.6.11 @ 4:30PM

I tend to agree. You can make a case for others batting wise but the pitching puts Babe over the top

Butch| 5.7.11 @ 4:01PM

Don't forget Bo Jackson.

Wayne | 5.6.11 @ 11:33AM

I think Mantle was better than Mays.

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 2:08PM

Dear Wayne: there is an excellent case to be made that Mantle's best ten years were better than May's best ten years.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 3:18PM

How good would mantle have been with knees and todays surgery?

Mays or Ruth?
Maddox of Johnson?
Clemente or Pee Wee?
On it goes. More to greatness than the numbers.

Flee| 5.6.11 @ 3:49PM

I agree. Babe does have his pitching abilities as an addition to his legend that none of the others can lay claim to. It's a tough analysis regardless.

Ryan| 5.6.11 @ 11:40AM

Cobb. Ugh. No doubt a great player, but he was so dirty and foul a human being that he probably wouldn't get in the Hall if the votes were held today.

From everything we know, Wagner may be the best ever and no one could prove it.

Interested Conservative| 5.6.11 @ 11:47AM

Correct about Wagner. IIRC, Bill James has the historical, pre-1950, view that until then Honus was considered the greatest ever.

Still, Ruth led the league in complete games one year, and HRs the next. That's almost unbelievable.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 4:30PM

Ask yourself, and the other posters, how good would the early players be today with the training equipment and surgery we have now? If they were great then...?

Susie Q| 5.6.11 @ 2:17PM

Ahh, a Ken Burns follower. Myths and half-truths do not history make. Cobb was not the person you described. Do some real research and don't rely on Hollywood or the Olbermann's of the world to teach you baseball history.

Ty Cobb was the greatest to play the game. Period.

Flee| 5.6.11 @ 3:55PM

Susie Q, I agree that Cobb is portrayed as a SOB as a player but he would have been welcomed by any manager of his day. His views of men were not uncommon for his day and upbringing. None of that takes away from his play on the field which is what I think he should be judged upon. If Cobb was so foul why was he always able to find people willing to put up with him? He also was a sound investor when most of his peers pissed away what they earned in bars. Why so many want to write him off for holding views that were the standard for many of his day is amazing to me.

George| 5.6.11 @ 11:45AM

Interested Conservative is dead on. I have all the respect in the world for Mays, but what was his pitching record and how does it compare to Ruth's? Case closed as to who was the better ball player. Ruth will always be number one.

Paul McGrath| 5.6.11 @ 1:01PM

Obviously, both sides have good arguments, but it must be remembered that Mays was also very speedy, stealing 20 bases or more in a year seven times, and was an outstanding outfielder. Then you consider that he hit 660 home runs--a mere 54 behind Ruth's 714--and that he did it for much of his career playing in windy, cold, Candlestick Park. When all is said and done, you gotta take Mays.

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 2:12PM

Ruth pitched for many years, though---1914-1920, with a record of 94-46, and a lifetime ERA of only 2.28!!! (Koufax was 2.76, I believe).

Let's put it a different way---Ruth made it into the HOF as a batter, but there's no doubt he could have done it as a pitcher, too, had he continued. He also had the 10th highest BA of ALL Time, 40 points above Mays!

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 9:08PM

No he would not have made the HOF as a pitcher. He was never a strikeout pitcher. He worked the edges of the plate and he had enough ability and control to be very effective. He averaged less than 5 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched and his strikeout to walk ratio was not much over 50%. His hits and walks per 9 innings was high. He threw a lot of innings in 1916 and 1917. He started to lose some of his stuff shortly after that when when he switched over to a full time hitter which was just before the ball was made livelier.

Butch| 5.6.11 @ 10:48PM

Does the Babe still hold the AL record for most shutouts by a left-hander?

Bob K.| 5.7.11 @ 12:13AM

I think you are mistaking this for his record of shutouts in world series games, but I'm not sure about that. I think that he had 27 consecutive scoreless innings in WS play. That might have been recently surpassed He had a total of 17 shutouts in regular season games. 9 came in his 1916 season. Warren Spahn had 63. Walter Johnson had 110 and Grover Alexander had 91 I think. They were righthanded. Lefty Grove had 35.

Paul Windels| 5.9.11 @ 9:46AM

Whitey Ford passed Ruth for consecutive scoreless WS innings in the early '60's. Nobody has come close since. Strikeouts weren't as common when Ruth was pitching -- he changed the game when he became a full-time hitter and then you see more batters trying to slug the ball and therefore striking out more. Simply put, he was one of the top pitchers in the game at age 25 and could have made HOF as a pitcher if he had a full career.

As a hitter, remember also, Ruth "lost" a few seasons as a HR hitter when he was a pitcher and because of the dead ball -- had he come up to the bigs as a hitter and with a "live" ball, he would probably have at least 100 more HRs.

Occam's Tool| 5.7.11 @ 11:26PM

Dear Bob,

ERA counts for much more than strikeouts, and control more than speed.

JimH| 5.6.11 @ 1:14PM

On my father’s (a long time Dodger fan) behalf I have to say what about the Duke? Seriously though, the amazing thing to me about the Babe was how good a pitcher he was before becoming an everyday player. I don’t recall ever seeing much written regarding his fielding skills though I understand he had some speed when he was young. The Mick might have been there with Willie had his career not been cut by injuries. I saw Willy Mays play when he was older and past his prime. I never saw Joe D other then in newsreel clips so I can’t express an opinion on who was better.

ShalomMetsJets| 5.6.11 @ 1:43PM

Not to disparage Babe Ruth, but in terms of pure talent, Mays was the better player. However, Babe Ruth was both a Cy Young caliber pitcher and the premier power hitter of his era. Also, his impact on the game was much greater in that he changed the way the game was played and his star power made baseball popular worldwide. Taking all that, makes Babe Ruth the best ever.

Casey Abell| 5.6.11 @ 2:06PM

Yeah, Ruth's pitching makes it not even that close. And frankly, Mantle was the better player through the fifties, though Mays lasted longer into the sixties as a great player. You can also make a case - sabermetricians have made it already - that Williams and Cobb were better than Mays.

Wally| 5.6.11 @ 2:37PM

Ruth was the best, Wagner next. Then you can lump a half dozen or so (Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Williams, etc.) together and not have much separation.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 3:38PM

Puckett
Joe Jackson
Kofax
Gwynn
Gotta love the debate, it's what baseball is all about.

Big Jim| 5.6.11 @ 2:50PM

Paul McGrath is correct, Mays was the best. He led the league in steals 4 times among his many accomplishments. Ruth was not a good runner at all.
Many of Ruth's homers were pop-ups in right field at Yankee Stadium which was only 297' with a wall so low players often fell over it and into the stands. If Mays had a short left field and a decent ballpark, he would have hit over 800 homers.
Mays was probably the best outfielder ever & certianly head & shoulders over the Babe. I'd say it's Mays, Wagner, Cobb, Ruth. Mantle is not in the discussion.

Flee| 5.6.11 @ 4:03PM

Big Jim, While Ruth was not a basestealer I have it on good sources (my father who saw him play in his prime) that he could steal a base when he needed to. How often do you think he would be asked to steal with Gehrig batting behind him and fine talents in front of him? SB are overrated and always have been. Ruth did all the things a hitter should do and didn't embarrass himself in the field either. Trying to compare stadiums is useless. A bunch of what ifs to make Mays sound better.

Paul Windels| 5.9.11 @ 9:51AM

Mays played in the Polo Grounds, which had much shorter foul lines than Yankee Stadium. Both parks also had enormous center fields, and Yankee was deeper in left-center and straight left and probably in right center as well.

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 3:17PM

Ruth's batting average was 42 points above Mays, and 6 of the best years of his career he played as a pitcher.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 3:59PM

Nolan Ryan
Christy Mathewson
Walter Johnson
Randy Johnson
Pitchers are not position players. We need two categories. Who is best defensive player of all time?

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 6:56PM

Al Adab: defensive masters

Outfield: Mays or Tris Speaker defensively.
Infield 1st base: Gehrig or Hernandez

2nd base: I'm a Cub Fan. I'm sort of partial to Ryno, but my understanding is that it's Bill Mazerowski, who's NOT in the HOF? Nah. Go with Frankie Frisch, or Jackie Robinson.

SS: Louis Aparicio did NOT get in the Hall of Fame because of his anemic bat. Honus Wagner is the other, of course. I am partial, however, to HOFers with low batting averages for the title of "best defensive," because it is clear that their greatness solely relied upon their glove. Wagner hit .329, and was the best Shortstop of all time.

3rd base: Robinson or Schmitt.

Catcher: Bench. However, it should be noted that Ray Schalk had a lifetime batting average of .253 and is in The HOF for defense alone.

Pitchers are impossible to rate defensively aoart from their pitching skill because the position IS the defensive position. For example, a great fielder as a pitcher is Rick Rueschel, who won 2 Golden Gloves. But, although an excellent pitcher who played for some truly dreadful Cub teams, he's never going to be in the HOF, and I know of no pitcher who is evaluated at great for their glovework alone.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 9:49PM

Catcher: What about Yogi? Look at his postseason (world series) stats. All the records. I like your others. Forgot about Tris Speaker, not bad.

Occam's Tool| 5.7.11 @ 11:27PM

Sorry, Yogi was awesome. But Bench had the ARM.

Paul Windels| 5.9.11 @ 9:54AM

Catcher is tough because calling a game and setting up pitches well isn't measured by stats. Bill Dickey and Mickey Cochrane were pretty fair catchers as well, and Dickey was brought in to teach Yogi the position. For second basemen, Joe Morgan rates pretty highly, and Charlie "the Mechanical Man" Gehringer was at least as good as Frisch.

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 7:07PM

Ryno had the highest fielding percentage at 2nd base of all time (it's a tie) coupled with awesome power in his best years.

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 9:23PM

Nobody here mentioned Hornsby. Played from 1915-1937. Second Base, Shortstop and Third Base. Lifetime BA .358! 301 HR. Over .400 3 times. .424 once! Best Right Handed Hitter in History!

He probably ate too much Red Meat and was too mean to the Press to be considered.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 9:52PM

Hornsby, good pick. Like I asked above, how good would those guys have been with todays training and surgery?

Occam's Tool| 5.7.11 @ 11:28PM

Hornsby is an awesome pick. Best hitter in Cubs' history, certainly.Defensive weakness: pop flies.

Robert| 5.7.11 @ 3:03AM

There were several years Ruth hit more homeruns by himself than whole other teams. He literally redefined baseball. Stop with this Mays nonsense already. Besides, think how many homeruns Ted Williams missed during WW2.

Brad| 5.7.11 @ 8:26AM

And Korea.

Al Adab| 5.7.11 @ 9:39AM

A collective mea culpa. All this talk and not one of us thought of Joe Dimaggio. Sorry Joe.

Occam's Tool| 5.7.11 @ 11:28PM

Well, Joe had grace and incredible talent. But much of what he did was intangible.

Jose Luis Stecca| 5.8.11 @ 7:54PM

Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Jim Davenport, Orlando Cepeda,
Tom Haller, Tito Fuentes, Hal Lanier, Bobby Bonds.... Now that was a ball club !!

Elmo| 5.9.11 @ 10:39AM

Just look at the hitting stats. Ruth's slugging percentage was .690. Mays, Aaron, and Mantle were all aroung .557. Ruth kills Mays in OPS 1.164 vs .941. Mantle was .978 and AAron .928.

Discount Ruth's 4 years of pitching in his prime early years and no one comes clsoe to him.