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The Spectacle Blog
At a meeting of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Mitt Romney previewed his approach to dealing with the similiarities between his health care plan in Massachusetts and the national legislation President Obama signed.
“If we get the chance to talk about health care, which would be fun, because he does me great favor by saying I was the inspiration for his plan,” he said. “If that was the case, why didn’t you call me? Why didn’t you ask me what was wrong?
“I can’t wait to have those conversations and I’ll take it to him,” Romney added.
But Romney doesn’t exactly back away from the individual mandate:
“If somebody in your state who doesn’t have insurance has a terrible automobile accident … we don’t let them die in the street,” Romney said. “Guess who pays for it? You. The government.”
“We said, you know what, this free rider problem is a real concern,” he added. “That concept led us to coming up with an experiment.”
It’s hard to see how the federalism argument, which worked for Scott Brown, will hold if Romney continues to substantively defend the individual mandate, as he’s done many times before. And even if you make the federalism argument, defending the mandate as policy reinforces the talking points of those advocating the individual mandate at the national level. See this Laurence Tribe op-ed in Romney’s hometown paper, the Boston Globe.
View all comments (104) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by W. James Antle, III
http://spectator.org/blog/2011/04/04/mitt-romneys-health-care-previ
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jharp| 4.4.11 @ 10:02AM
I have yet to see or hear of one of you dumbasses offering a solution.
Without the mandate and the the fact that you can't be turned down due to a pre existing condition it is simply common sense to wait until you need insurance to buy it.
How about it teabaggers. What is your solution?
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 10:45AM
I suggest an exemption from Obamacare, like some many have already gotten, including all of the politicians and Obama's friends. Have you gotten yours yet?
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:03AM
This doesn't address the problem.
It was Ronald Reagan who mandated that hospitals cover the uninsured for free at the tax payer's expense.
Here are your options to solve the crisis:
1. Repeal Reagan's law and let people die. (without care)
2. Continue to let people get free EMERGENCY health care from hospitals at the Tax payer expense.
3. Require an individual mandate for insurance (states decide) that prevents free riders on the system and closes the deficit.
Now, there are many things can be done to encourage more people to get insurance. In fact Governor Romney has advocated to let people by insurance from out of State or to provide tax incentives for people to individuals and corps who donate money for the uninsured, or for those who save money for health insurance.
But even these proposal wont' solve the problem in #1 and #2.
The states need to solve their OWN health care problems. Romney's position and solution is the most consistent with Conservative principles, legislation, and tradition.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:10AM
"The states need to solve their OWN health care problems."
Let me know when the states start insuring those 65 and over.
God you people are stupid.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:26AM
No, we're just realistic and we understand the problem. There is a health care crisis and claiming that Romney's experiment isn't the solution is ignorant when you propose no viable solution in its place.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:36AM
"claiming that Romney's experiment isn't the solution is ignorant when you propose no viable solution in its place."
That is what I've been saying for 2 years.
I'm glad to have you on board.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:40AM
The answer isn't Obamacare.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 12:02PM
Yes the answer is ObamaCare.
Whether you like it or not it is the law you dumbsh*t.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:37PM
It's funny to see the Romney RINO twist himself into knots attacking ObamaCare and at the same time singing the praises of RomneyCare.
Both Big Government healthcare takeovers are disastrous, and both of you are stupid to defend them.
That's why I and millions more like me will NEVER vote for Romney--he's the Democrat-lite to Obama's Democrat. There's no difference between the two Statists.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:08AM
"Have you gotten yours(exemption) yet?"
Yes. If you live in any one of the fifty states you have too, dumbass.
Astounding how f*cking ignorant all of you are about a program that you claim to loathe. You don't even know what it is about.
God you people are stupid.
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 11:13AM
No, I haven't gotten my waiver. I don't belong to a union and I'm not a politician, dumbshit.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:34AM
"No, I haven't gotten my waiver. "
Then you must not be a citizen. All 50 states have been granted waivers beginning in 2014, the same year ObamaCare fully kicks in.
Now quit yer whining and contact your state representatives and get them moving.
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 2:54PM
Contact Brad Sherman (D), for what? He voted for the Obamacare crap. I'm a citizen, you stupid ass, and I don't whine, bitch. I just speak my mind. I pay taxes, both state and federal, so leftists can buy the votes of all the freeloaders, as well as provide medical care and education to millions and millions of illegal aliens. Why don't stick your friggin' harp where the sun don't shine; that is, of course, after you pull your head out of your ass, you sycophant piece of shit.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 3:01PM
"Contact Brad Sherman (D), for what? He voted for the Obamacare crap."
God you people are stupid.
Contact your STATE representatives you f*cking dumbass.
God help us.
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 3:31PM
They're all a bunch of leftists like Sherman. What part of that didn't you get, dummy? Do I have to draw you a picture? They're all in on it! Insurance companies are all raising rates in anticipation of the coming disaster that ObamaCare is. Only the rates for politicians, those in unions or the relatively few firms that sought and obtained an early (temporary) waiver have not gone up. At present, as I previously wrote and apparently you didn't read it or get it: 1,168 waivers have been granted, including the latest 129 waivers, many of which went to unions. So far only 2.2 million people have been protected by the waivers. There's no waiver relief for me or anyone else I know; and I know quite a few people. So shut your leftist trap and stop drinking your bong water. It's all a sham. By the way, did you get to see the One's initial campaign ad? Not much therein about ObamaCare, was there? Why is that? There was no energy, just a bunch of sycophants singing praises of their leader. Good luck, ObamaCare is going to be up front and center come election time.
PS: How's that Libya thingy going?
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 4:02PM
Fine. Then do nothing but whine and complain. Let's see where that gets you.
I plan on doing something.
And the insurance companies days of raising rates are soon to be over in Vermont. They are accpeting the waiver of ObamaCare and going to a single payer system.
Of, and please go enroll in a freshman English class. The paragraph is your friend.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:40PM
Yeah, jharp plans on doing something--he's going to demand an exemption from ObamaCare. Just like that piece of crap Weiner in New York. No hypocrisy there.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:27AM
Name calling and labeling aren't valid arguments. Make some valid arguments jharp.
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 11:42AM
1,168 ObamaCare, including the latest 129 granted to mostly unions, have been granted as the result of ObamaCare raising the annual benefit caps on certain health plans. It goes without saying that a plan with higher annual limits is potentially more costly than one without them. Therefore, the money to cover the difference in premiums has to come from somewhere. Without the waivers, it will come from the employers who are forced by law to upgrade to the more expensive plan. In other words, the 1, 168 organizations that have received waivers are not seeking relief from an unintended consequence, but from the costs associated with one of the untold ObamaCare features. The question is, what will these businesses do once the waiver program ends? I believe most of them would have to implement increasing employee contributions or drop coverage altogether.
I suggest, for starters, to allow people to buy private medical insurance across state lines, effect medical tort reform, and allow self-employed folks like me, who buy their own insurance to at least be able to write off part of it.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 1:06PM
You wrote:
"to allow people to buy private medical insurance across state lines, effect medical tort reform, and allow self-employed folks like me, who buy their own insurance to at least be able to write off part of it."
This is part of Romney's plan for solutions to the national problem.
But, he's also realistic and honest when he says that it won't address the main problem.
The main problem is that State have mandates to provide free care to the uninsured.
In Massachusetts, the PEOPLE chose to deal with that by requiring insurance to end the free-rider problem.
Conservative Think-tank , the Heritage Foundation responded to Romneycare:
– Heritage On Romney’s Individual Mandate: “Not an unreasonable position, and one that is clearly consistent with conservative values.” [Heritage, 1/28/06]
– Heritage On Romney’s Insurance Exchange: An “innovative mechanism to promote real consumer choice.” [Heritage, 4/20/06]
– Heritage On Romney’s Medicaid Expansion: Reduced “the total cost to taxpayers” by taking people out of the “uncompensated care pool.” [Heritage, 1/28/06]
JmsA| 4.4.11 @ 3:57PM
I believe in the free market system. I don't believe the government should get between and individual and his/her doctor. Socialism, under which everybody tries to live at the expense of everyone else, does not work. And neither will socialized medicine.
"What a government system can accomplish is to destroy the art and science of medicine in these United States of America." Jane M. Orient, M.D.
Availability of medical insurance across state lines, medical tort reform, etc., as I previously pointed out, may not resolve the problem altogether, but could be quite helpful. Socialized medicine does not work. Just ask the relatives of the lady in England, the one that held a high post for in NSH (National Health Service), and passed on after having to wait for stomach surgery for 9 months.
I agree with you in part: There should be a mandate, one that is personal and private, without anyone telling one what to buy, and not penalizing one for not wishing to participate. The first step towards a solution is to repeal ObamaCare. Any government run health care system will be politicized and will lead to abuses, including rationing, which will not only decrease the quality of life, but actually shorten it.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 5:15PM
RomneyCare and ObamaCare are the antithesis of the free market. Democrat/Democrat-lite.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 10:06AM
The criticism of the individual mandate from Republicans is hypocritical and coming from Libertarians it is inconsistent.
Republicans have included the individual mandate in health care reform proposals for the last 30 years.
Libertarians are inconsistent when they accept Medicare and social security and reject the individual mandate on all levels.
Furthermore, when we argue that Social Security should be privatized, and mandate old-insurance premiums, once again to criticize the individual mandate is inconsistent.
It is a VERY bad political argument to reject the individual mandate on ALL levels when we accept it on some.
Most hard-core Libertarians understand political reality and so they won't attack Medicare or Social Security, when they'd like to end all social insurance.
But let's accurately identify all of these folks who target Romney on the individual mandate but who are "celebrate" Medicare and Social Security.
When the Tea Party adopts this tag-line to attack Romney, little do they know that a very inconsistent argument is staring them back in the face which will be used against them in the election cycle.
Romney's position of States rights is the most consistent position to hold and best argument to make. His idea of an executive order to undue Obama's Affordable Care Act, is also the best option in the short term.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 10:47AM
"Romney's position of States rights is the most consistent position to hold and best argument to make.
Only problem is Romney is on the record as plain as can be that his Mass plan should be the model used by the federal government.
Too funny. Kinda painted himself into a corner on that one.
Regardless it is a moot point. There is no way the teabaggers and the American Taliban are going to vote for a cultist who believes the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.
Hilarious.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 10:56AM
Jharp:
You wrote:
"Only problem is Romney is on the record as plain as can be that his Mass plan should be the model used by the federal government."
No, this is the MSM caricature of Romney's statements about using the MA experiment as a model for OTHER STATES.
Obama and the MSM want to use Romney's call for national health care reform as cover for their Federal program that was forced on all of the States and people without a bi-partisan majority.
He didn't paint himself into a corner. We just need people who aren't deceived by the MSM's "jedi mind tricks" and who will look closely at the statements and their context to get to the bottom of the message that Romney was sending.
It is dishonest the way the MSM tries to suggest that Romney is REALLY for their plan, when he has made repeated statements prior to and after Obamacare was passed.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:16AM
"No, this is the MSM caricature of Romney's statements about using the MA experiment as a model for OTHER STATES."
Wrong again, jackass.
In a 2009 CNN interview, Romney said:
“I think there are a number of features in the Massachusetts plan that could inform Washington on ways to improve health care for all Americans. The fact that we were able to get people insured without a government option is a model I think they can learn from.”
Do you work for Romney? If so RomneyCare is the least of his problems.
He belongs to a cult you fool. No way no how will the American Taliban accept that and you know it.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:35AM
No, I don't work for Romney. I have my own successful business and I have time to address really bad arguments on boards like these from time to time.
You quote Romney but then FAIL to quote what the context and Romney's OWN interpretation of his statements mean. Why is that?
You're not looking for the sound-byte deception game are you?
No Jharp, Romney's statements don't translate into a Federal Program like Obamacare. This is the MSM's version of a "jedi mind trick."
Before Obamacare was passed, Romney was very adamant about its unconstitutionality and the misapplication of the individual mandate at the Federal level.
Why didn't you include those quotes, eh?
Romney is 100% comitted to repealing Obamacare, and is the ONLY potential candidate who has proposed the best idea to UNRAVEL Obamacare with an executive order the day he walks into office, effectively killing Obamacare.
Romney has gained huge ground among Conservatives since 2008 and among religious voters.
Oh, he belongs to a cult? Which cult is that? And what definition of "cult" are you applying to Romney?
Isn't this just more of your religious bigotry spewing out of the empty head of yours?
Or are you just an Obama operative trying to stir up trouble?
C'mon jharp... confess.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:41AM
"Isn't this just more of your religious bigotry spewing out of the empty head of yours?"
I could not care less what religion anyone follows.
Sadly, for Romney, the GOP base cares a lot. And if you are not a white Christian you can forget about becoming President.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 5:13PM
Shove your bigotry up your ass, troll. You Democrats are the most vicious racists around; after all, you created slavery and Jim Crow laws. You have no compunction about attacking Black Conservatives to this day. Moron.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:14AM
There are millions of Evangelical Christians that voted for Romney in 2008.
www.evangelicalsformitt.com
Religious bigotry is not a valid argument to reject Romney.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:18AM
"There are millions of Evangelical Christians that voted for Romney in 2008"
There were more millions that didn't. Idiot.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:24AM
We know that Romney lost in 2008, so that isn't hard to know that millions didn't vote for him. Your point was that Romney doesn't have a chance because he holds religious beliefs.
The point is that there are MILLIONS of Evangelical Christians in this cycle that will vote for him and support him.
Do you have a better candidate to beat Obama?
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:30AM
"Do you have a better candidate to beat Obama?"
Mitch Daniels. Only I'm not sure the teabaggers would vote for a shrimp.
You guys are in deep doo doo. You might as well get used to it. President Obama till 2016.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:36AM
LOL!
Obama is an incompetent and inept executive. You can't get around that fact.
Obama will go down and Romney will peg him there.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:50AM
Yeah right.
Just like Palin was a game changer for McCain.
How'd that turn out?
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 12:17PM
Horrible.
But Romney and Palin don't share the same resume.
Romney will beat Obama with the accomplishment and results of his record.
What will Obama say? How will Obama compete with Romney's resume and record?
He can't - he's going down.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 5:09PM
Obama's not going down if the contest is against the Mythster .
Romney's a RINO like McCain, and we all know how well that worked out for Repubs.
Try to learn from history, Mythbot, so we don't repeat it.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:25AM
"Religious bigotry is not a valid argument to reject Romney."
For me that is true.
For the religious kooks that the GOP has courted for all these years it is not true.
Too bad for you. And it makes my day, week, and year to see the religious bigotry the GOP has embraced for decades bite them right in the ass.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:37AM
You're stuck back in 2008. Please stay there. You'll help Romney tremendously.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:48AM
So since 2008 the GOP has shed it's religious bigots from the party?
Let me guess. They are now liberal democrats?
Are you smoking crack? Or are you really that stupid?
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:57AM
No, the party hasn't "shed" all of its religious bigots, but the number who won't vote for Rmoney because of his religion has shrunk.
They have gotten to know Romney and have watch him defend Conservatism over the last 2+ years.
This from the Washington Post:
"Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney has spent the better part of the last five years working to convince conservatives that he is one of them. And, if the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll is right, he’s done it.
Sixty percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents view the potential GOP presidential candidate favorably, while just 21 percent see him in an unfavorable light.
That’s an improvement from where he stood in early January 2008 – in the heart of the GOP primary fight – when 55 percent of Republicans and GOP-leaning independents viewed him favorably and 36 percent felt unfavorably toward him. And back in November 2007, Romney’s favorable score stood at 42 percent while 28 percent felt unfavorably toward him in Post/ABC data.
Perhaps more important for Romney as he gears up for a second presidential bid in 2012 are his numbers among the most conservative segments in the GOP. Sixty-eight percent of self-identified conservatives view Romney favorably; his numbers are even higher among the portion of that group who identify themselves as “very” conservative – with 71 percent seeing the former governor in a favorable light."
Also from Rasmussen:
"A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney leads the pack with the support of 24% of Likely Republican Primary Voters. Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, the party’s nominee for vice president in 2008, runs second with 19%, closely followed by Mike Huckabee with 17%. "
http://www.rasmussenreports.co....._and_palin
Who needs crack when the facts are the "real high?"
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 12:09PM
"No, the party hasn't "shed" all of its religious bigots, but the number who won't vote for Rmoney because of his religion has shrunk."
Damn you're dumb.
Your polls are worthless. They won't be voting for 20 months you idiot.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 12:12PM
No, the polls aren't worthless. The polls just demonstrate that you're out of touch with 2011.
The reality is that Romney has IMPROVED among religious Conservatives and therefore, your theories that he can't reach the nomination are unfounded.
You should be damn worried. Your guy Obama is going down in red, white, and blue flames.
By the way, denial is expected to be your next move when faced with facts you can't overcome.
May I suggest some therapy?
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:43PM
May I suggest you get a REAL job, Mythbot?
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 6:04PM
I have a successful small business, control over my time, and have a couple of degrees. I fit the profile of the majority of the Tea Party.
Joan, when are you going to form any valid arguments against Romney?
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 6:23PM
You're lying again. Tea Partiers are not paid Romney hacks. Nice try though.
3..2..1 watch the Mythbot start whining and crying about Republican religious bigotry toward Myth. Won't work, troll; RomneyCare is a fatal self-inflicted political wound. The Mythster has only himself to blame.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:16AM
Jsharp:
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever proven where the Garden of Eden was actually located?
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:19AM
No. Nor has anyone ever proven it even existed.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:22AM
Right. It is a matter of faith for Christians, Jews, and Muslims. So whether one believes it was in Missouri or somewhere else is irrelevant.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:28AM
"So whether one believes it was in Missouri or somewhere else is irrelevant."
Not so grasshopper. You know as well as I the religious bigotry held against Mormons.
And it's held by the right wing Christians the GOP calls its base.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:38AM
yes... but that it has shifted. There is a part of the base that will never vote for Romney. But Romney can appeal to a wider base to make up the difference.
I hope you have a better argument.
jharp| 4.4.11 @ 11:44AM
Romney lost to McCain you imbecile.
McCain, who wasn't conservative enough.
And Romney is even more liberal.
Put the bong down.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:58AM
J:
You're living on fumes from 2008. Read this from the Post and weep:
This from the Washington Post:
"Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney has spent the better part of the last five years working to convince conservatives that he is one of them. And, if the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll is right, he’s done it.
Sixty percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents view the potential GOP presidential candidate favorably, while just 21 percent see him in an unfavorable light.
That’s an improvement from where he stood in early January 2008 – in the heart of the GOP primary fight – when 55 percent of Republicans and GOP-leaning independents viewed him favorably and 36 percent felt unfavorably toward him. And back in November 2007, Romney’s favorable score stood at 42 percent while 28 percent felt unfavorably toward him in Post/ABC data.
Perhaps more important for Romney as he gears up for a second presidential bid in 2012 are his numbers among the most conservative segments in the GOP. Sixty-eight percent of self-identified conservatives view Romney favorably; his numbers are even higher among the portion of that group who identify themselves as “very” conservative – with 71 percent seeing the former governor in a favorable light."
Also from Rasmussen:
"A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney leads the pack with the support of 24% of Likely Republican Primary Voters. Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, the party’s nominee for vice president in 2008, runs second with 19%, closely followed by Mike Huckabee with 17%. "
http://www.rasmussenreports.co....._and_palin
Who needs crack when the facts are the "real high?"
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 12:00PM
Also, among Tea Partiers: (From the Post)
"Mitt Romney is the choice of nearly one in four of those who agree with the tenets of the tea party, according to a new Pew poll, a surprising result that suggests the former Massachusetts governor’s support heading into 2012 may be broader than previously assumed.
Among tea party supporters, Romney took 24 percent to 19 percent for former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, 15 percent for former House speaker Newt Gingrich and 13 percent for Texas Rep. Ron Paul. Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin, long considered the tea party’s 2012 candidate-in-waiting, took just 12 percent — another piece of evidence that the 2008 vice presidential nominee’s support is fading even among members of her own party. "
Eh J, where ya been? Living in a cave? (lol)
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 12:13PM
Don't tell me? You're going to play the "denial" card?
lol
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:45PM
Citing irrelevant polls and living in 2008 are your bailiwick, Mythbot.
When others beat you on the facts you start whining about religious bigotry. You Romneybots play victim politics very well.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 6:01PM
I quoted from polls from 2011.
There is no blogger that has beaten me on the facts. None. You least of all. (lol)
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 6:33PM
The Washington Compost rag, PEW and MessNBC polls are so liberal they're irrelevant and Rasmussen is three months old.
The first three polls prove that Liberals are rooting for Romney because they know Obama can beat him, and Rasmussen is pretty old.
Show me a legit poll that's current and we'll talk.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 5:05PM
First time I've ever agreed with the harpy.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 10:26AM
Mr Antle:
You wrote:
"It's hard to see how the federalism argument, which worked for Scott Brown, will hold if Romney continues to substantively defend the individual mandate, as he's done many times before."
I am not impressed at all with most of the articles coming from the American Spectator about the individual mandate.
Romney defends the mandate because to trash it means Republicans and Tea Partiers will be accused of hypocrisy and inconsistency when 1) Republicans have used the mandate in 100s of health care proposals for the last 30 years, and 2) they have vigorously defended social insurance in the form of MEDICARE and SOCIAL SECURITY.
So, if you disavow the mandate, liberals and the MSM are going to have a field day with you and show very easily that you are 1) a flip-flopper, and 2) inconsistent and hypocritical.
Cris Worth| 4.4.11 @ 10:53AM
Clear away the fluff and get down to the nitty gritty, the gist Mitt Romney wants to be President no matter what the cost. His record of policy shifts, support of crony capitalism and a closet liberal social agenda means Planned Parenthood stays fully funded and Obama/Romney care becomes part of the American fabric. This is it, all Americans who believe in the Christian God, the sanctity of life and constitutional principles stand united. No more debt-ceiling raises and no Willard Milton Romney in the White House.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 11:06AM
I believe in the Christian God, the sanctity of life, and consistutional principles, and I argue that a vote for Romney is consistent with all of those principles.
www.evangelicalsformitt.com
Ryan| 4.4.11 @ 1:09PM
Except the "Christian God" part.
Mormons don't view Him as the Ultimate Creator of all reality everywhere, nor as Triune.
Christians do.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 1:17PM
Ryan:
The Bible doesn't present a monistic or pantheistic framework for reality.
The Bible also does not require a belief in the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity as formulated by the Catholic Councils of the 4th and 5th centuries.
Mormonism believes in the Godhead of the Bible which is early Christian, without the creeds that were added to the Christian message centuries later.
Mormons are line with early Christianity.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:52PM
But what does Romney believe in? He's changed positions more times than a weather-vane in a wind storm.
I hope you're paid well Mythbot, you spend a lot of time promulgating mis-information and propaganda for the Mythster Campaign.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 10:59AM
Cris:
You wrote:
"Clear away the fluff and get down to the nitty gritty, the gist Mitt Romney wants to be President no matter what the cost"
You cannot point to any Governing practices that Romney originated that are policy shifts, supports of crony capitalism, or closet liberal social agendas.
These are empty speech acts that originated with the Huckabee campaign in 2008.
Romney GOVERNED on the side of life regardless of his political position switch in 2007.
Romney's accomplishments:
* Took 2002 Utah Winter Olympics’ 300 million deficit and turned it into a 100 million dollar surplus - the most successful games on record.
* Took Massachusetts 1.5 BILLION dollar deficit and turned it into a 600 million dollar surplus withOUT raising income and other taxes (he did raise some "fees" on other services - about 2 million worth.)
* Balanced the budget every year he was in office without raising income taxes and adding to state debt.
* 80,000 new jobs created under his watch in MA
* Successful Romney companies: Dominos Pizza, Staples, Accuride, Brookstone, Sealy Corp, Sports Authority, and Artisan Entertainment, Monsato Company, Outboard Main Corporation, Burlington Industries, Corning Incorporated
* Romney’s companies have created over 10,000 jobs
* Earned over 260 million in the private sector - 25 years
Name another candidate who has accomplished as much fiscally.
Cris Worth| 4.4.11 @ 2:36PM
Romney tried to convince us he was a born again conservative in 2007 but failed in the voting booth. Dissect the 2008 primary campaign and please explain why he lost. By the way Romney supported TARP (2008-crony capitalism), invested in embryonic stem cell research and had his wife make a donation to Planned Parenthood. As governor nominated a pro-abortion Democrat judge after he claimed a pro-life conversion - gave Planned Parenthood a permanent seat on a state board. Romneycare has bankrupt Mass. and people are voting with their feet. Someone bring me up to date, what does Romney stand for today, this minute?
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 4:57PM
The Romneybot is a true believer and most likely a paid Romney hack. The troll obviously has a dog in Romney's fight to become POTUS.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 8:01PM
No. Joan. I am not a paid Romney hack. I own my business and have control over my time and am one of the smart Tea Party leaning Republicans who doesn't tolerate your brand of politics.
You give the Tea Party a bad name.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 8:02PM
I campaigned for Tea Party candidates and one of them is my relative, and now he's in the House doing a great job.
What is your link to the Tea Party?
You're just a Patriot in Name Only. You are in the Constitution Party. C'mon fess up.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 9:44PM
Yes, we Conservatives already know that Romney RINOs like you look down on ordinary Americans like us. After all, even though we are the majority, we should just sit down and shut up so King Myth can be crowned by the Republican Elite. It's Myth's turn, right?
Sorry, we're not interested in a repeat of our 2008 RINO disaster.
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 1:34PM
Joan:
You're not a "TRUE" Conservative, you're a Constitution Party jihadist. You use labels and lies as if they were principles and facts. You constantly make empty speech acts that are driven by your unjustified religious beliefs that based on hate, extremity, and bigotry.
You are NOT a Patriot. You are a liar. You lie and love to make lies about anyone who disagrees with you or is a threat to your insane and ridiculous conceptions and beliefs.
I campaigned for Tea Party candidates and saw their successes. I am related to one of the Tea Party leaders. I don't claim that "my label" makes me a Patriot but by the WAY I conduct my business and personal affairs in life.
You think that politics is a "punch line" rather than dedication to time tested and God given principles and being in the fight against liberalism.
You have never been outside your little enclave of religious bigots and so you have never learned how to respect the beliefs of others or justify your own.
We don't need to ask YOU to sit down and shut up Joan, you will be silenced by the majority in the Tea Party.
Your vitriolic attacks on Romney only work among fellow bigots like yourself.
I really don't care whether you want Romney as the nominee or not. Your personal preference means what to this great nation? Nothing.
The issue is who has the EXPERTISE to turn around our country. That person is Mitt Romney.
You can't offer up another candidate who can appeal to Conservtives, Indendents and Reagan Democrats that can beat Obama.
This is why you're absolutely and uniquivocably ridiculous.
Stopying lying to yourself and pretending that Romney invented the individual mandate.
Stop lying and pretending (religiously) that Romneycare is a bad solution to the Health care crisis.
These are "petty political" statements that have no firm and justifiable ground according to Republican or "real" Libertarian application of constitutional principles.
Please don't quote any more "commandments" to me since Progressive Liberals claim that Socialism was approved by the early New Testament Church when they all had "everything in common" through a social order of that kind.
Look, the best thing you can do for yourself and others in the Tea Party like you is just don't say anything.
Then and only then will you stop sounding like a complete buffoon.
Oh.. and by the way, have a nice day.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 2:41PM
Hey Mickey Mouth, look around this thread and see how many of us reject Romney as our candidate. I'm not the only one voicing my opposition. You're the outlier.
Like I said before, when you're beat you resort to victim politics and cry religious bigotry.
It's a false charge and you know it, but you use it anyway so you can stop debate. Just like the Liberals.
It won't work, Mythbot. King Romney won't be crowned because it's "his turn" and we the majority won't sit down and shut up because you Republican elites say so.
Get used to it--it's a new Tea Party day.
Have a good day today, because there won't be a lot more coming your way, Mythbot. Romney's going down.
Bob| 4.4.11 @ 3:11PM
I was thinking of an angle of attack on the former Bay State governor. It was tough, he's pro-abortion, supports Planned Parenthood, pro-gay rights, Romneycare blueprint for Obamacare. I support these issues. Since he is a Republican there has to be something, Ah thanks to Cris above. His first name is Willard...the rat movie of couse. I can see now a Democratic operative running a commercial with GOP rats scurrying all over the place with their new leader Willard Milton Romney.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 8:12PM
Bob:
When you misrepresent Romney's record so that you don't have to deal with his accomplishments or the truth about it, we know right then that you 1) don't have another candidate who is better, and 2) that you don't have any genuine arguments that can support your views.
C'mon Bob. What's real at the heart of your convictions?
Abortion?
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 9:53PM
Since when is a pro-abortion position something to be praised in the Republican Party? What do you Romney RINOs have against unborn babies?
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 1:21PM
Your labels and lies are not match for Romney's record. (I love watching you go down in flames.)
Gov. Romney is for the sanctity of human life and he has proven it:
* He is a “convert” to the pro-life position, much like Ronald Reagan
* He believes life begins at conception even though his church has no official position on the matter
* He vetoed a bill to give kids access to emergency contraception without parents’ knowledge
* He promised a “moratorium” on changes to abortion laws in his 2002 gubernatorial run
* He opposes Roe v. Wade and thinks states should set abortion policy
* He opposes cloning of human embryos for stem cell research—even though his wife has multiple sclerosis
* He vetoed a bill to expand such research despite the overwhelmingly hostile liberal majority in his state legislature
* Quote: “In considering the issue of embryo cloning and embryo farming, I saw where the harsh logic of abortion can lead—to the view of innocent new life as nothing more than research material or a commodity to be exploited.”
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 2:44PM
You won't love it when you see Romney's campaign go down in flames, Mythbot.
Why do Romney RINOs hate unborn babies and love Big Government?
CalMark| 4.4.11 @ 3:16PM
MODERATOR:
Why hasn't jharp been banned?
Profanity, vicious ad hominem insults, and nasty language have no place in a forum like this.
CalMark| 4.4.11 @ 3:31PM
a) Romney's religion and the tenets of Mormonism are irrelevant. Many Mormons are good conservative (not Romney) patriots.
b) Mitt Romney is no conservative. He's a slippery politician who believes in his own career above all. I would only vote for him in a general election.
c) In bygone days, you got the health care you could afford. Access to good doctors was a major motivator for people to move up the economic ladder.
d) Modify the "ERs must treat everybody" law":
PRIVATE (i.e., non-government) charitable trusts at hospitals who choose to have them would treat indigents until their annual budget is exhausted, then announce publicly: doors are closed to charity cases. After that, everyone gets billed for the full amount due, deadbeats go on a no-admit list--send 'em to another hospital. People would learn quickly not to abuse the ER.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 5:03PM
I couldn't agree more. Romney's Mormonism is irrelevant to me, his Liberal politics are quite another matter.
Romney doesn't hesitate to use victim politics to score points, and I find that obnoxious, disingenuous and desperate.
Romney's just another ambitious, untrustworthy politician.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 5:57PM
Romney is a conservative and Governed as a conservative:
* He balanced the budget every year he was in office.
* He closed MA's deficit and finished with a surplus.
* According to the Heritage Foundation, is use of the Republican proposed individual mandate, he was innovative using it.
* He vetoed stem cell research.
it cannot be rationally argued that Romney is a RINO, slippery, deceptive, etc.
Your proposed d) option won't fly. A majority of Republicans, Tea Party Patriots, nor Democrats will agree. It is not morally right to leave people in the streets to die.
Not even extreme Libertarians will take this position.
Your prosal is not a serious one that could work in the country.
The truth is, Romney has looked at these proposals and considered them morally and politically. His use of the Republican individual mandate is consistent with Conservative principles and values.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 6:45PM
Redistribution of wealth is immoral, too--it's called theft, remember? You're just another Big Government RINO Statist who differs little from Obama.
ROMNEYCARE = OBAMACARE. This is the fatal, self-inflicted political wound that dooms Romney's candidacy. You both hate the free-market system which means you're not one of us.
You're also disingenuous by not adding a date to your irrelevant Heritage Foundation quotes.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 7:58PM
Joan:
You couldn't make a coherent Libertarian argument if your life depended on it.
You're all talk Joan. You think declaring your biases is declaring the truth which is the worst kind of fallacy of all.
Joan, I am sorry I can't respond your inane comments anymore. You can't and won't deal with the issues at hand or the problems America faces.
You think that whining and complaining are forms of solving problems. You are unlike the majority of the Tea Party who is like ME, not you.
You're a Constitution Party whack job.
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 9:47PM
Thou shall NOT steal is a Commandment, moron; it's also unconstitutional when it is enshrined in law like Romney/ObamaCare.
You're a Romney hack.
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 1:20PM
Joan:
You are so many steps behind on the political philosophy, libertarian issues, and the implications of it, more so than any other person I have encountered online.
I think you're just unstable. Perhaps you're a substance abuser? Who knows.
All experts agree that Romneycare is constitutional. It was also oevrwhelmingly approved by MA citizens, and legislators. It was their choice on how to deal with their health care deficit problem.
People like you are like ostriches who bury their heads in the sand, and pretend that deficits, problems, and tough decisions don't exist in the country. You are unqualified to say or do anything about it.
This is why you'll never ever have influence in the country and your most favorite Tea Party candidate would drop you like a hot-potato if they knew you and your opinions.
Joan, seriously. Get medication. Get spiritual and emotional help.
And no, Romneycare does not violate the 8th commandment.
You'll be hard pressed to show a theodicy on that one at the very least.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 2:46PM
I dog your RINO Romney lies because I'm a patriot and I want RINOs like you defeated at the polls and in the court of public opinion.
You're a liar and a fraud just like your boss, "King" Romney.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 3:06PM
RomneyCare steals money from Mass. citizens by forcing them to buy insurance. ObamaCare is the same kind of theft.
You're a liar and a fraud--and a lousy Christian.
Mike| 4.4.11 @ 7:55PM
Cris and Carl:
From “Evangelicals for Mitt”
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/issues.php
Governor Romney on the Issues
Gov. Romney is for traditional marriage and he has proven it:
* He pushed for an amendment to Massachusetts’ constitution to overturn the same-sex “marriages” that courts have imposed
* He testified before Congress and wrote to senators in favor of the Federal Marriage Amendment
* He ordered enforcement of a little-known 1913 law to prevent out-of-state gay couples from getting “married” in Massachusetts and provoking a national constitutional crisis
* He opposes civil unions, but the Democrats in the state legislature demanded that they be legalized in the constitutional amendment
Gov. Romney is for the sanctity of human life and he has proven it:
* He is a “convert” to the pro-life position, much like Ronald Reagan
* He believes life begins at conception even though his church has no official position on the matter
* He vetoed a bill to give kids access to emergency contraception without parents’ knowledge
* He promised a “moratorium” on changes to abortion laws in his 2002 gubernatorial run
* He opposes Roe v. Wade and thinks states should set abortion policy
* He opposes cloning of human embryos for stem cell research—even though his wife has multiple sclerosis
* He vetoed a bill to expand such research despite the overwhelmingly hostile liberal majority in his state legislature
* Quote: “In considering the issue of embryo cloning and embryo farming, I saw where the harsh logic of abortion can lead—to the view of innocent new life as nothing more than research material or a commodity to be exploited.”
Gov. Romney understands the threat jihadists pose to the United States and he isn’t afraid to say so:
* He criticized the administration’s decision to rely solely on WMD rationale for Iraq rather than making a positive case
* He endorsed surveillance of radical mosques
* Quote: “The president is right to point to an international jihadist movement aimed at the collapse of the United States. He has gone after that threat in the right way and with great energy and vigor, and I applaud the fact that he has taken it on very seriously and has not considered it just a criminal action but instead a war action, which requires a military…response.”
Gov. Romney is pro-growth on economic issues and he has proven it:
* He balanced Massachusetts’ budget without raising taxes despite finding a $3 billion deficit when he entered office
* He is seeking to cut the state income tax from 5.3% to 5%
* He opposes Kyoto-esque “global warming” proposals, unlike John McCain
* He secured the enactment of a sweeping health care reform plan that the Heritage Foundation, America’s premier conservative think tank, supports
Gov. Romney is for the rule of law and he has proven it:
* He opposed a bill that would have allowed illegal aliens to get driver’s licenses
* He vetoed a bill to give illegal aliens the right to in-state tuition at public universities
* He is seeking to allow state troopers to arrest illegal immigrants
* Quote: “I’m against an amnesty and against anything that provides an incentive for people to come here illegally.”
Gov. Romney has earned the praise of conservative leaders:
* “Charming. Smart. Conservative.”—National Review
* “We couldn’t be happier with him.”—Barbara Anderson, Citizens for Limited Taxation (the leading taxpayer group in Massachusetts)
* “On either [gay marriage or stem cells], a good case can be made that Romney has fought harder for social conservatives than any other governor in America, and it is difficult to imagine his doing so in a more daunting political environment.”—John J. Miller, National Review
* “In the worst possible circumstances, he confronted one of the toughest issues of our politics with considerable moral seriousness and political skill. That’s the mark of a conservative statesman.”—Matthew Spalding, The Heritage Foundation
* “I could in very good conscience support Romney as a fellow social conservative on most of the issues we care about.”—Chuck Colson
* “As more Americans meet Mitt Romney, I think they’ll see beyond the handsome exterior and see not just a good salesman, but a thoughtful (and, yes, conservative) leader.”—Kathryn Jean Lopez, syndicated columnist and editor of National Review Online
* “Mr. Romney could be an attractive presidential candidate. His sunny disposition puts one in mind of Ronald Reagan—he laughs easily and smiles almost continuously….[His] views put him well within the mainstream of GOP conservatism.”—James Taranto, Wall Street Journal
* “On marriage and cloning, he has provided aggressive leadership as a positive, pro-family governor”—Kris Mineau, Massachusetts Family Institute
* “Mitt Romney is a brave man. While the GOP glitterocracy attended the first gay wedding of one of their own, Gov. Romney was in Washington, D.C., making the single most eloquent and articulate defense of our traditional understanding of marriage I have heard from an American politician.”—Maggie Gallager, President, Institute for Marriage and Public Policy
* “As a politician, Mitt Romney is considered by friend and foe to be the total package.”—Dean Barnett, The Weekly Standard
Jonah| 4.4.11 @ 9:50PM
Do you get paid by each pro-Mythster cut and paste job you unleash on various web-sites? If so, you should be a millionaire soon, hackjob.
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 1:09PM
Joan:
As if to say, that you're not responsibile to have to address facts or arguments if I were paid?
No, I am not paid, I am just thorough. I don't need to be a millionaire to be happy in life. I am content with my own business living the American dream and supporting my favorite candidates, including my Tea Party relative legislator is kicking butt.
The majority of the Tea Party will go to Romney. Of that I have no doubt.
True Patriots want Obama out of the White House and IN THIS CYCLE, Romney is the only competent and expert who can unseat him.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 2:49PM
True patriots won't vote for a Conservative wannabe who only talks the Conservative line.
More than ever I see the deceit that permeates Romney and his Mythbots. You are ugly to the core.
NO ROMNEY EVER!
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 5:47PM
No, not true Patriots, just the kind like you who can't distinguish their mouth from their anus.
You can't point to any deceit from Romney - such an opinion is formed from your religious biases alone.
Just admit it Joan, you're an irrational whack job Constitution Party member and the only issue for you is your absolute pro-life stance that you militantly cram down anyone's throat and those innocent girls who are raped or the victims of incest.
Romney consistently Governed as a Conservative - and applied accepted Conservative Republican strategies including fiscal responsibility and the individual mandate.
Your "deceitful" scheme is to redefine "Conservatism" into Constitution Party platform or extreme Libertarianism.
Sorry, Joan. I don't buy it.
Romney 2012 - the most likely scenario like it or not.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 7:53PM
Why do you Romney RINOs hate unborn babies and the Constitution? Why do you love Big Government? You sound just like the Liberal Marxists now in power. There's no difference between Romney and Obama except Romney's white and has better hair.
It doesn't matter what you think A-hole, you're in the minority and my majority trumps your paltry numbers.
Trump's going to kick Myth's ass in New Hampshire! Too freakin' funny. Told you, loser. Myth's time has come and gone--he's irrelevant. You're nothing but flop-sweat.
You're gonna have to get a real job, turd.
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 8:28PM
Joan:
So you claim that its a horrible thing to make people pay for insurance (or pay a penalty) according to your Libertarian free will argument but NOW you say that its MORAL, DESIRABLE, and BEAUTIFUL that we force women and girls to bring pregnancies to term caused by RAPISTS AND PEDOPHILES?
You're sick Jonah. You're political philosophy is a stinky smelling mess or bullsh*t.
Your claim that Romney hates the unborn, hates the constitution, loves big government, are all big lies (and fallacious labels) so you don't have to deal with the problems at hand.
Your proclamations are meaningless. Your opinions are unfounded. You couldn't tell the truth to save your life.
No matter. Your kind will fall quickly in a debate or in the discussion.
You're inconsistent and every principle you say you hold dear.
By the way, Trump hasn't even beat Romney in the POLLS yet, let alone have wide appeal among the base. So, how could he kick Romney's "ass?"
Just more wishful thinking on your part.
But, no matter. Romney STILL leads among Tea Party voters in New Hampshire. I just love that.
Romney 2012 - the most likely scenario like it or not.
Let's see you reconcile your ABSURD principles:
1. You say its IMMORAL to force someone to pay for health insurance,
2. But you DEMAND that women and girls MUST bring pregnancies to term caused by RAPISTS AND PEDOPHILES?
You are sick Joan. Very, very sick.
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 10:43PM
So you admit it: RomneyCare is theft and it's unconstitutional. Took you long enough, scumbag.
Why do EVIL Romney RINOs hate babies and the Constitution?
Jonah| 4.5.11 @ 10:47PM
Romney is only up 6 points over Trump in NH and Trump's surging! Bachmann outraised Romney in campaign funds the first quarter. Romney's irrelevant.
UH OH!! TROUBLE FOR THE MYTHSTER!! LMAO!
Mike| 4.5.11 @ 11:16PM
Joan:
You said earlier that polls are meaningless! (LOL)
But whether the end result is 51% to Trump's 49%, Romney STILL wins the first Primary.
Just one more evidence of your absurd and every changing arguments. You're done Joan. You have no principles. You have no integrity. You'll lie to save your inane claims and your huge ego.
But, when it comes down to real issues, you're silent. This is the sign that you have no integrity.
Let's see you reconcile your ABSURD principles:
1. You say its IMMORAL to force someone to pay for health insurance,
2. But you DEMAND that women and girls MUST bring pregnancies to term caused by RAPISTS AND PEDOPHILES?
You are sick Joan. Very, very sick.
Jonah| 4.6.11 @ 2:32AM
Poor Mickey Mouth--so stupid and so desperate.
You only cite polls that are irrelevant--that's why you didn't cite this one.
You support stealing money from other Americans and killing babies--some "Christian" you are. More like an Atheist.
Jonah| 4.6.11 @ 2:37AM
Are all Romney RINOs thieves and killers like you? Pervert.
Mike| 4.6.11 @ 2:14PM
New IOWA Polling
Neighborhood Research completed 319 surveys of Iowa Republicans who said their chances of
participating in the 2012 GOP caucus were “definite” or “very likely.” The theoretical margin of error is
+/--? 5.5% in 95% of cases.
IOWA…………….LOVES ROMNEY:
Mitt Romney 21.0%
Newt Gingrich 12.2%
Michele Bachmann 6.6%
Tim Pawlenty 6.3 %
Ron Paul 5.6%
Herman Cain 2.8%
Rick Santorum 1.9%
Haley Barbour 0.9%
Mitt Romney 24.1%
Newt Gingrich 12.5%
Tim Pawlenty 8.2%
Michele Bachmann 7.9%
Ron Paul 6.9%
Undecided 40.4%
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/s.....z1IlgBD6fC
Where's Trump?
Jonah| 4.6.11 @ 4:22PM
Stinking liar. You're no different than the piece of shit you're whoring for.
Huckabee won that Iowa poll and you know it. Myth came in second with Trump only 4.7% behind him. You're a stinking piece of crap which proves I've been right all along. You lie and cheat just like all Liberal garbage, and Myth Romney is irrelevant.
Crawl back under your rock, piece of crap.
The NH PPP (Liberal rag) you linked shows that Romney has unfavorables as high as his favorables. Even the folks in Myth's backyard can't stand him, A-hole.
Jonah| 4.7.11 @ 12:33PM
Piece of shit. Good riddance.
Mike| 5.24.11 @ 8:42PM
Where are Huckabee and Trump now? Hahaha
Romney leads the pack.