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The Spectacle Blog
One of the odder reactions to the events of this weekend was David Frum’s rush to blame reefer madness: “The Tucson shooting should remind us why we regulate marijuana,” he writes, going on to cite some of the research showing (somewhat murky) links between marijuana use and schizophrenia.
But we don’t just “regulate” marijuana — we outlaw it. There’s a link between schizophrenia and alcohol abuse, and the shooter, in addition to being a pothead, apparently was treated for alcohol poisoning in high school. If the shooting in Tucson is an argument for marijuana prohibition, it must also be an argument for alcohol prohibition. Having been served a few adult beverages at David’s house, I have a really hard time imagining that he’s willing to endorse reviving the Noble Experiment. So if he has a justification for arresting over 800,000 Americans a year for having the wrong drug of choice, he has yet to present it.
View all comments (36) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by John Tabin
http://spectator.org/blog/2011/01/10/schizophrenia-pot-and-alcohol
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ECM| 1.10.11 @ 11:59PM
Nice tu quoque, Tabin, but you're going to need to muster a better argument than that. (And let me just be agonizingly clear: I can't stand Frum, but your argument is pretty much non-existent.)
John Thacker| 1.11.11 @ 12:56AM
His argument is pretty obvious. The link between alcohol and violent schizophrenia is incontestably stronger than the link between marijuana and such, and the shooter certainly abused alcohol. If the incident "reminds us why we regulate marijuana," to mean ban, then it logically must also remind us why we had alcohol Prohibition.
If Frum isn't willing to ban alcohol because it didn't work, despite the evidence of violent schizophrenics like this one, then this incident probably isn't sufficient to justify banning pot, despite his claims.
Occam's Tool| 1.11.11 @ 3:47PM
80% of my inpatient admi9ts have THC in their urine; this was true in Minnesota and New Zealand. The THC content is higher than it was in the 1970s, and the research isn't that murky.
OT| 1.11.11 @ 4:09PM
Sorry, admits
John Thacker| 1.11.11 @ 7:01PM
"80% of my inpatient admi9ts have THC in their urine; this was true in Minnesota and New Zealand"
So? All you're doing here is demonstrating your poor knowledge of statistical fallacies.
What percentage of your admits have some trace of alcohol in their blood? Is that enough to bring back Prohibition? Why not?
Ajax the Great | 6.22.11 @ 10:08PM
And several studies show that as many as 90% of those patients would test positive for nicotine. Does that prove that tobacco causes schizophrenia? No. Correlation does not equal causation--that's a logical fallacy.
Bob K.| 1.11.11 @ 8:53AM
I used to eat lunch in a restaurant that had a contract with a nearby "treatment facility" to serve lunches to some of their patients who were out in the community. They all smoked heavily. Tobacco! Much more than the average smoker did.
Bob K.| 1.11.11 @ 12:39PM
There isn't much correlation between the habits and addictions of the mentally ill and the disease they have.
Hitler was nuts too. I will leave it to the mental health industry to define how and in what manner he was nuts but it is interesting to note that he was a teetotaler and a none smoking vegetarian.
Stalin, Pol Pot, the College Professor who led Peru's "Shining Path" and Castro and his murderous henchman "Che" (who is now memorialized on the dirty t-shirts of the uneducated) were not nuts as far as I know, but they would have been more than happy to use and discard Loughner in any manner, as our left is doing, in order to advance their Leftist agenda.
Occam's Tool| 1.11.11 @ 4:08PM
Bob, you're doing a logical fallacy. Andy Kaufman was a nonsmoker who died of Lung Cancer, for example. That's not the way epidemiology research works.
When we are looking at epidemiology, we are looking at numbers for populations. There will always be outliers---for example, there are case reports of AIDS patients who never seroconverted. What I tell my patients is that life is an odds game, and we go with the safest way to bet. In all likelihood, you will not be a NEJM article, but fall within normal statistics.
Smoke MJ, and you are more likely to go crazy these days, especially with "hydro."
John Thacker| 1.11.11 @ 7:01PM
'Smoke MJ, and you are more likely to go crazy these days, especially with "hydro."'
Sure, and the same is true of alcohol. But we have to consider the relative rates, and base rates, and other statistical considerations too.
Patriot| 1.11.11 @ 10:29PM
Really into weed, aren't you, John? LOL
Bill| 1.11.11 @ 5:36PM
When your problem is committable neurosis or psychosis, smoking is the least of your problems.
I once worked in a mental hospital whose wards were linked by a corridor with the part of the hospital where those with respiratory problems (the "lungers") were kept. Interestingly enough, it was the early to mid-70s, and the hospital moved the cigarette machines from the mental canteen and moved it into the lunger canteen!
PC run amok.
Eric Cartman| 1.11.11 @ 9:42AM
Schizophrenia, Pot, and Alcohol? Sounds like a Liberal wet-dream to me!
Al Adab| 1.11.11 @ 10:18AM
Any relationship between alcohol and marijuana exists solely in the minds of those who favor the weeds widespread use. Attempting to solve one social problem, alcohol, by creating another, marijuana, only endangers us all.
Ajax the Great | 6.22.11 @ 10:05PM
No new "problem" is being "created", buddy--cannabis is already here to stay. The genie was let out of the bottle decades ago. Deal with it.
Sean| 1.11.11 @ 10:54AM
Frum's argument is the typical liberal spin on things. Americans do not give up their freedoms just because one lone nut is connected to something. We don't regulate our lives based on schizophrenics. Millions of people smoke weed with no problem generated to others.
FastJohnny| 1.11.11 @ 11:33AM
A former friend of the shooter described him as a "Pot smoking leftie." What does that tell us and why haven't the MSM run with the ballon that one?
Willey| 1.11.11 @ 2:47PM
The latest research on marijuana use points to increased mental illness among those who have a predilection toward it.
CalMark| 1.11.11 @ 5:16PM
Tabin's post seems to dismiss documented links between brain malfunction (memory, judgment, motivation) and regular marijuana use (i.e., drug abuse), because there are no such links to regular alcohol use (i.e., having a drink or two). Or something like that.
Then again, maybe I'm just addled from drinking the occasional adult beverage, which would imply the need to ban alcohol. Or the harmlessness (necessity, even) of legalizing marijuana. Or (again) something like that.
John Thacker| 1.11.11 @ 6:57PM
You're apparently pretty addled, or just incapable of reading. There *are* links between regular alcohol use and schizophrenics going violent; they're far stronger than the links between pot and schizos going violent.
The former isn't enough to justify Prohibition, so the far weaker latter evidence isn't enough to justify marijuana prohibition.
Patriot| 1.11.11 @ 10:31PM
Geez, John, we get it; you're a pothead!
Bill| 1.11.11 @ 5:31PM
Since when is outlawing something NOT a form of regulating it?
Bill| 1.11.11 @ 5:33PM
The use of alcohol by underage drinkers IS regulated; in fact, it's OUTLAWED!
Rich Rostrom| 1.11.11 @ 5:56PM
Try this:
http://claytonecramer.blogspot.....lness.html
Links (with extracts) to nine papers and articles discussing the connection between marijuania and insanity, all from 2002 or later, and all in reputable sources. For instance:
"On an individual level, cannabis use confers an overall twofold increase in the relative risk for later schizophrenia..." British Journal of Psychiatry, (2004) 184: 110-117
"Early cannabis use is associated with psychosis-related outcomes in young adults..." Archives of General Psychiatry (May 2010), 67:5
"...recent studies using high resolution imaging techniques ... in very heavy cannabis users have revealed evidence of dose-related alterations in regions implicated in schizophrenia." Handbook of Neuropsychiatric Biomarkers, Endophenotypes and Genes, ch. 27. (2009)
Additional papers linked are from British Medical Journal, Schizophrenia Bulletin, International Review of Psychiatry, American Journal of Psychiatry.
The general conclusion is that while marijuana use is neither necessary nor sufficient to cause insanity, and the vast majority of users do not go mad, it can be a very powerful contributing factor. There seems to be interaction with genetic factors, and early use is particularly dangerous. BJP estimates that 8% of schizophrenia would go away if marijuana did.
There are also studies indicating that marijuana uses correlates very strongly with the onset of schizophrenia and psychosis, and with relapses among diagnosed cases.
Kenneth E. MacAlister Jr.| 1.11.11 @ 7:00PM
Rich, you have a point here regarding marijuana use & development of schizophrenia, but drug abuse in general can cause mental illness. A great, but sobering read on this subject is a book titled "Peter Green, Founder Of Fleetwood Mac" by Martin Celmins. Peter Green is the best blues guitarist England ever produced & the founder of Fleetwood Mac back in late 1967. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac as they were called then were an excellent blues-based rock band whose record sales in England & the U.S. combined surpassed those of The Beatles The Rolling Stones in 1969 & early 1970. Peter Green unfortunately blew his mind through the abuse of drugs, notably marijuana, LSD, & Mescaline & developed paranoid-schizophrenia. Peter Green has returned to his music career several times, but the lingering after effects of the drugs & his disease are apparent in his performances to this day. The book is an excellent read, but is very disturbing & sad & describes his descent into drug-fueled madness without pulling any punches. His story is very sad indeed & makes me wonder why anyone would continue to tempt fate & continue abusing these drugs. Ironically, the other two guitarists (Danny Kirwan & Jeremy Spencer) from that origal blues-based version of Fleetwood Mac both ruined their careers in the same way Peter Green did. It's my opinion only, but I don't think Fleetwood Mac has been the same since the original lineup imploded in 1970 when Green & Spencer descended into drug-fueled madness & again in 1972 when Danny Kirwan was fired for bizarre drug-induced behavior. Nothing against the many different members who took turns replacing the original three frontmen of the band, but the original fire just isn't there in the top ten pop music they've been making ever since the drugs blew apart the original band. Again, my opinion only. Abuse of any mind altering drugs like LSD & marijuana can indeed lead to serious mental illness. The original Fleetwood Mac story is ample proof & Peter Green's biography should serve as a warning of playing with mind altering drugs.
Patriot| 1.11.11 @ 10:38PM
Even sadder are the many brilliant musicians who've died because of drug overdoses.
Ed| 1.12.11 @ 4:42PM
They are talking about marijuana only. Don't drift please.
Patriot| 1.12.11 @ 8:46PM
No drift here. I was responding to MacAlister's post, doofus. Try reading a little more before you mouth off.
Ajax the Great | 6.22.11 @ 10:16PM
Not all studies agree with the hypothesis that cannabis causes schizophrenia. Evidence against causality can be found from the following links:
http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/N.....TR.121.PDF
http://www.ukcia.org/research/.....hrenia.pdf
"BJP estimates that 8% of schizophrenia would go away if marijuana did."
Even if that were true, that's hardly a reason to outlaw it. Besides, cannabis is here to stay and is not going away. With an effect size that small, any change in cannabis use that might occur in practice would have a negligible effect on psychosis rates in the population.
Ed| 1.12.11 @ 5:55PM
IMHO, this whole argument is pretty hilarious. If one were to juxtapose the current marijuana situation with a legal regulated market, something similar to alcohol/nicotine, and then pose arguments to start its prohibition spiral. The said studies used to argue for its prohibition are very weak at best. Again this is only my opinion, but I think the proof shows that the psychosis/schizophrenia angle is not relevant. The 8% of schizophrenics that “may”(let me repeat “MAY”) not have been if marijuana access was removed is in no way justification to arrest over 800,000 people a year(according to 2008 statistics). Also, to now claim that over the past year 10% of the total US population(marijuana use % in ‘05) are now criminals (our current reality) and are breaking the law and should be criminally prosecuted (AKA ruin lives/futures – or even death... i.e. botched raids) is frankly RIDICULOUS!
I’d like to add. All of the above is not even considering the studies which show that marijuana is relatively harmless. Except in its illegality.
Patriot| 1.12.11 @ 8:49PM
I knew you were a pothead; it explains your lack of attention to detail. Go ahead, smoke away--they're your lungs and brain (what little remains) to destroy.
The doper guys I knew in college often got fat and pasty looking--you, too?
Trolltriot| 1.12.11 @ 11:46PM
Troll, troll, troll, all day long, troll troll troll while I sing this song. Going to troll this blog, because I'm slime, going to troll this blog because - I'm a sad excuse for a human being that wastes his or her time trying to insult other people with no substance of my own.... troll troll troll all night long...... LOL I'm sooo drunk right now, this is should be written in stone its so good. I crack myself up.
Patriot| 1.13.11 @ 12:33AM
I don't drink either, braindead moron. I don't kneel at the altar of addiction like you do.
Nice try, though. You can go back to your bong now.
Fat and pasty, too, huh? LOL
Ajax the Great | 6.22.11 @ 10:19PM
Ad hominem attacks are no way to win an argument, buddy.
Ajax the Great | 6.22.11 @ 10:03PM
To all those who believe that cannabis causes psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, answer me this: why haven't the rates of such disorders increased over the past few decades? Cannabis use was rare until the mid 1960s, now there are millions of users. But the rates of psychotic disorders have remained fairly constant over time.