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The Spectacle Blog
Again, I’m grateful to Aaron Goldstein for engaging the issues surrounding “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and “gay rights” more generally. However, I’m disappointed with his latest response. He demands “hard empirical evidence” and “studies” to demonstrate what should be obvious to anyone; and that is that sexual attraction and allure affects human behavior and group dynamics.
Has Goldstein ever been, for instance, to a public high school, or even onboard a U.S. navy vessel? Has he seen how young men and women behave and interact with each other? Do I really need explain to him the birds and the bees?!
Sure, public coed high schools often do a perfectly fine and adequate job of educating young people. And the U.S. Navy certainly is fulfilling its mission requirements. But please don’t for a minute pretend that sexual attraction and allure doesn’t create a unique set of problems for both institutions, because it most certainly does.
You don’t hear much about these problems because the public schools and the military have a vested interest in downplaying them and sweeping them under the rug. The Big Media, meanwhile, show little interest in investigating these problems.
But make no mistake: these problems are real. And with all due respect to Goldstein, you have to be singularly obtuse to deny this reality.
I can cite as “hard empirical evidence” incidents from my own modest (and fairly recent, post 9/11) experience as a Marine. But that’s hardly necessary. My experience, after all, isn’t unique or unusual. It is, in fact, fairly common.
So my “opinion” about “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” isn’t based on “negative perceptions of gays and lesbians.” (In fact, most gays and lesbians that I have known, and know, I like.) My assessment, instead, is based on real-world dynamics, human nature and 2,000 years of human history.
Now, Goldstein may think that these problems — disruptions to unit cohesion, degradation of morale, and the undermining of good order and discipline within the ranks — are a small price to pay for “inclusion” and “progress.” That is a perfectly legitimate position to hold.
But let’s be honest about the cost that’s involved here. The introduction of open homosexuality within the ranks is hardly problem-free. Nor is it an unalloyed good to which we all should give thanks and sing hallelujah.
The introduction of an overt sexual dynamic into a stateside office environment may not matter much. But in a combat environment, it truly can mean the difference between life and death. Indeed, sexual favoritism and intrigue can wreak havoc with small-scale military units.
Again, this should be fairly obvious. Will you ever hear much about these problems? Of course not. Congress and the media won’t ask; and the military won’t tell.
James Antle has it exactly right: “The military will muddle through… leading the people who don’t understand why things were ever the way they were to confidently declare victory.” But it will be a deeply flawed, if not pyrrhic, “victory.”
And the problem, obviously, is not so much that a gay soldier will make unwanted advances toward a straight soldier. That’s easily dealt with, of course.
The problem is that two gay soldiers might carry on an affair within a unit. It is that a gay commander or non-commissioned officer (NCO) might use his position of power and authority to secure sexual favors — or that a gay soldier might use sex to manipulate his commander or NCO. It is the potential emergence within the military of a gay subculture.
In short, the problem is the undermining of the military’s unique warrior culture, which makes the Marines and the combat arms attractive to young men and, for them, a source of pride.
Goldstein might think that all of these things are easily regulated and proscribed, but he’s wrong. Human behavior is far more complex and difficult to manage than left-wing social engineers — or Pentagon planners — would have us believe.
Goldstein makes two other points that cry out for rebuke. He compares religiously-informed objections to homosexuality with racist attitudes and behavior. This is really unconscionable on his part and the result, I hope, of ignorance and not anti-religious bigotry.
Obviously, racist attitudes of a generation ago were not rooted in Biblical or religious scripture. There are, by contrast, dozens of passages in the Old Testament that unequivocally condemn homosexual behavior.
Moreover, as I’ve noted here at the American Spectator, every major religious tradition in the world — Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, et al. — has moral proscriptions against homosexual acts.
And again, as I’ve noted here at the American Spectator, and as Colin Powell himself has observed:
Skin color [and ethnicity are] benign, non-behavioral characteristic[s]. Sexual orientation, [by contrast], is perhaps the most profound of human behavioral characteristics. Comparison of the two is a convenient but invalid argument.
So the idea that religiously-informed attitudes toward homosexuality are somehow a passing fad, or a culturally conditioned construct, is simply wrong.
Goldstein may disagree with traditional religious beliefs about homosexuality, but he should be under no illusions that these beliefs can be eradicated and stigmatized in the same way that racist attitudes of a generation ago have been (mostly) eradicated and stigmatized. That simply ain’t gonna happen.
And one reason it won’t happen is because the “hard empirical evidence” demonstrates that active homosexual behavior often doesn’t lead to a happy and healthy life. Indeed, the incidence of disease and premature death that is associated with active homosexual behavior is disturbingly high.
So there are sound public health reasons to give any fair and open-minded person serious pause before embracing homosexuality as a positive good.
Finally, Goldstein asks whether “a singular remark, [or admission of homosexuality], is enough to disrupt [a] unit’s military effectiveness and ability to complete its mission”?
No, of course not. But what’s Goldstein’s point?
I’ve already explained that the problem is not individual homosexuals per se, many of whom are fine soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. The problem is the introduction of an overt sexual dynamic — backed up by the full power of the state, the full force of law — into small-scale military units.
That’s why “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was such a brilliant and unheralded compromise measure: Because it allowed lesbians and homosexuals to serve discreetly, but without disrupting the unique warrior culture of the Marine Corps and U.S. Special Forces.
Unfortunately, the brilliance of this compromise measure was no match for the raw political power of the activist Left and the cowardly silence and stupidity of the inert Right.
Still, I hope that at some point in the not-too-distant future, Congress will revisit this issue and exempt the Marines and Special Forces from the requirement for openly gay service. This is the least we could do for the men now fighting and dying on our behalf. Their code and their culture mean something great. And we wreak havoc with what they have achieved only at our peril.
Update: This post previously listed the wrong author.
View all comments (39) | Leave a comment
More Blog Posts by John R. Guardiano
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NotALibertarian| 12.20.10 @ 10:34PM
" the cowardly silence and stupidity of the inert Right."
Isn't that the truth. Conservative websites like RedState should be ashamed of themselves for their complete neglect of this issue. What on earth is going on?
Winghunter| 12.20.10 @ 10:59PM
It is my opinion that destroying our military readiness and intentionally placing our 18 yr olds in this kind of harm's way is despicable and treasonous at best. 'Outrage' doesn't hardly cover this insanity.
In an institution that is entirely designed to mentally and physically break down these impressionable kids individuality then build them back up to obey orders without thinking, it is beyond serious concern in what deviant behavior could ruin them for life - well beyond service to their country IF they survive it.
Evidence the psychotic demands??
Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex http://bit.ly/14dIph
Children Raised by Openly Homosexual Parents More Likely to Engage in Homosexuality http://bit.ly/5CgWp0
Jim Hlavac | 12.20.10 @ 11:42PM
OK, then -- we gay folks are "evil" and no one has ever accepted us -- and yet, we all keep saying the same thing -- all over this planet in every culture and religion and race ever known to man -- we are. We just are. We have no idea why. And more importantly -- neither do you. You admit as much.
I respect the Archbishop of the Armed Forces when he says that why some tiny percentage of the population is gay -- it's "largely unexplained" he says. I believe him.
And so, without belaboring the point -- if gay people are truly this threat to family, nation, society and civilization itself -- it behooves you all to come up with an explanation. Go use the finest research capabilities of this nation -- and figure out why such a few of us is so determined to keep saying "We are, we just effing are."
And then -- and only then -- with science and reality on your side -- you might "cure" or "prevent" -- you think -- the gay people in your midst. But please, don't keep blaming me for destroying anything or anyone when I knew I was gay when I was 8 years old. And I didn't even know it was a "problem" until I was 15 or so.
But I tell you this people -- you will never make me go out with a woman. You will never make me engage in what I consider sordid and disgusting sex acts. You'll have to arrest me and throw me in jail with all those other men who think and know the same -- we're gay. You'll have to shoot be before I do what you heteros do. Blah and blech!
So have at it. You all are delusional though, if you do not recognize the reality in front of you -- some of us boys are just gay. That's it. There's 106 boys born for every 100 girls. And when the 100 marry the 100 -- what on earth do you want us six to do? Do tell, I'm asking.
As a tiny minority, the most scorned and hated on earth, I have no ability to sway opinion against me other than constantly whining. But I'm willing to accept my fate. You want to rid the land of us gay guys? Do so.
I regret that I have only one life, then, to give to my country and my gay brethren. Do not tread on us -- or stomp us out of existence. But cut out the mealy mouthed intermittency.
Go, seek, find, explain -- and come to a rational conclusion so you can save society from me, a rational, peaceful, productive, taxpaying citizen.
Until then -- all you have is superstition. Which is not becoming of a Free Republic based on rational thought and fact.
Have a Merry Christmas. But rest assured -- I await the police state or your sullen intolerance, whichever you prefer. But I declare to you now -- I have no other choice than to speak for my people: "Let us go in peace!"
Do with us as you will -- it's your conscience. I have led the good life, and fought the good fight. And if the 95% of you who are straight still want to stomp me into oblivion -- oh well, such is the lot of the least of God's creatures.
We are a test unto you all for decency -- and you have failed. And I bear the brunt. Oh well, that's reality. In which I deal more fully than all the anti-gay folks every fostered against me ever dealt with.
Bruce | 12.21.10 @ 12:03AM
A little mellodramatic maybe? Nobody has called you "evil". Nobody has said they want to "stomp you into oblivion" that I have seen. Personally what you do in your private life is none of my business, just as what I do is none of yours. I just don't want to continuously have your sexual preference forced on me and other straights. This entire issue is a red herring from radical gays intent on mainstreaming their preferences - it has nothing to do with rights. You have a right to serve in the military now and always have. Gays have served honorably for generations. The only thing that is insisted on is to keep your preferences to yourself. Just as straight members of the military are proscribed from engaging in behavior prejudicial to "the good order and discipline of the service", so are gays. What is the problem with that? Are you so intent on flaunting your gayness that you care not if you disrupt unit cohesion and readiness. Do your time serving your country honorably and shut up about your sexual preference. When you get out you can wrap yourself in a rainbow flag and march all you want.
Jim Hlavac | 12.21.10 @ 12:07AM
The Pope himself says I'm evil -- what more can I say?
Advice| 12.21.10 @ 4:24AM
Jim --- just kill youself. Most who practice homosexuality do, in the end.
alyeska| 12.21.10 @ 4:41AM
advice:
yeesh, you give new meaning to the work "degenerate." not to mention a$$hole!
Stunned| 12.21.10 @ 11:34AM
That's in the top 10 of most un-Christian comments I've ever read. How absolutely disgusting and vile. Beyond disgusting and atrocious - there is no word to describe you right now, "Advice."
-Stunned.
Tim*| 12.21.10 @ 6:16AM
" VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict said Monday that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.
The Church "should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed," the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration.
"The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."
MLG| 12.21.10 @ 10:43AM
1. You are missing the Pope's point It is the 'behavior' that is destructive, not the person, but the person's behavior; an important distinction - Love the sinner, hate the sin.
2. This is more than just allowing people who prefer the gay lifestyle to serve in the military. They do that now with DADT. This is forcing upon everyone the acceptance of that lifestyle as Good. For those whose faith says, homosexual behavior is a sin, this will be a problem.
3. Diversity and Tolerance is a two way street. Those who believe homosexual behavior to be a sin need to have their beliefs respected too. Those officers and NCOs should not have to teach / train that this lifestyle is 'good' if they firmly believe this behavior to be sinful. So, I agree, in the spirit of Diversity and Tolerance the Special Forces and the Marines should be exempt.
Greta| 12.21.10 @ 12:15AM
Jim H, your gay weakness which clearly you believe is a core part of your being is not that far different than those who are attracted to sex with children, to stealing, to violence, or whatever other weakness you see in mankind. For centuries, the people of almost every nation and every religion have said that this is gravely disordered acts and it is against the laws of nature. Every person is called by God and by society to control their weakness. That is what makes things work in societies and what we are called to do by God. We are all called to love the sinner, but hate the sin, whatever it is. For some reason, through what most see as a distortion of the constitution, the gravely disorded act of homosexuals which is an act one chooses to do, to be somehow connected to a civil right as if one could choose to be black. You can have the weakness of being gay and live a perfectly legal and whole life with no one every being the wiser where it is hard to ignore the fact you are black and it requires no action on ones part.
You seem to think God has some kind of plan because we seen more boys born than girls. Well in wars we see men by the millions dying and we see in natural life, men have always died younger than women. We also know that some men are called to serve God and traditionally those have been in greater numbers than women and many are called to be celebate in that religion.
The issue of serving in the military is one that is set up by them for one reason, effective operation of those who are to defend us. Too old or too young and you cannot serve. Too fat or to frail and you cannot serve. Women are limited in where they can serve but this is being evaluated in an ongoing basis. We cannot serve if our eyesight is handicapped and of course the handicapped in most instances are not able to serve. Remember we have some who are 4F even during major wars who wanted to serve. We also place our military in unique situation in barracks life such as communal showers. When women went in with large numbers, this created a logistics problem. I doubt they want to serve in open barracks, bathrooms, and showers with men. So if we now allow open gays to be placed into these close living arrangments with those they are sexually attracted to, are we violating the rights of the men who also want to serve with those they are sexually attracted to with the women or vice versa?
You do not give us a test of decency, but a test where you want the acts of gays to be classified as normal and just as every other disordered act, we are called to love you, but detest that which you want to do. Your answer will never come from mankind, but only from God and the antigay folks are those who have a close relationship with God and the Church who teaches the act to be gravely disordered. If you find your way to God, and give your issue to Him, you will find peace and that is the prayer we say for those who have that weakness even as we turn to Him for our own.
Jim Hlavac | 12.22.10 @ 5:46AM
It ain't a "weakness" honey, it's a Strength. You do not see the irony and sarcasm within my comments. Oh well. Merry Christmas.
Tron| 12.21.10 @ 8:40AM
Marines are that gay-precarious that an Out Marine will make the others all go gay? Sheesh, I just lot a LOT of respect for the focus, training and readiness of our US Marines.
9th ID| 12.21.10 @ 11:12AM
Explanation is easy and I'm surprised you haven't heard about it. It's all explained in Romans 1:18 - 32. We don't hate gays, but your problem is not with us but with your Creator and that thing called Sin.
Mike| 12.21.10 @ 12:19AM
"The Southern Baptist Convention, largest Baptist organization in the World, has taken an unequivocal stand [for] segregation." Time Magazine 1955. Your grandparents believed the Bible supported segregation based on Genesis and Timothy.
Alessandra | 12.21.10 @ 2:21AM
We just are. We have no idea why. And more importantly -- neither do you. You admit as much.
==============
hah.
You're thinking everyone is as dumb a rock as you are. And that's where you are so wrong.
Wouldn't it be nice if every American were required to study four years of anthropology, sociology, and sexual psychology to get a clue of all the knowledge and research which investigate the myriad of elements that contribute to the development of all kinds of sexual psychologies, attitudes, ideologies, and customs, such as the modern, liberal concept of homosexuality?
Then stupid twits like you would be told to shut up about "everyone is as stupid as I am on the subject" and they would be able to post something which isn't just their own extreme ignorance about human sexuality (including homosexuality).
What a sad day it is for American when the most stupid, ignorant folks are the ones who get the media spotlight to misinform society about sexuality, psychology, and sociology.
Then again, a shabby, liberal-controlled public school system --this is the obvious result. No surprise there.
Asking someone with a homosexual problem to explain homosexuality is like asking an anorexic what a person's proper weight should be, or asking a pimp to tell us how to think about prostitution, or asking an alcoholic if they have any alcohol problems.
Dream on.
Alessandra | 12.21.10 @ 2:26AM
You don’t hear much about these problems because the public schools and the military have a vested interest in downplaying them and sweeping them under the rug.
=============
Touché.
Published in the news this month: "The American Civil Liberties Union of Connecticut, along with the Service Women’s Action Network and Yale Law School students, filed a lawsuit against the departments of Defense and Veteran Affairs, claiming the Pentagon has declined to release records related to sexual assault, harassment and/or trauma in the military. "
It must be ugly. And now with the repeal of DADT, the top brass will have all the interest in the world to repress any evidence of homosexual assault and harassment to show that the repeal "worked." I feel sorry for the victims already.
Zbigniew Mazurak| 12.21.10 @ 3:20AM
"The problem is that two gay soldiers might carry on an affair within a unit. It is that a gay commander or non-commissioned officer (NCO) might use his position of power and authority to secure sexual favors -- or that a gay soldier might use sex to manipulate his commander or NCO."
Well, that would be either fraternization (Art. #134 of the UCMJ) or conduct unbecoming. Either way, the guilty individuals could be prosecuted under the UCMJ.
JP| 12.21.10 @ 7:53AM
Yes, and the military refuses to grant the highest security clearences to individuals who have exhibited dangerous behavior and expressed negative opinions of thier chain of command (PFC Manning). And the military prohibits officers from preaching treason, and violence to fellow Americans (Major Hassan). Get real. The DOD will do what it always does -ignore uncomfortable problems until they become a disaster. Not only will a gay CO who sleeps with one of his enlisted men be tolerated -he will surely get promoted.
I remember back in 1991 when serving in Saudi Arabia. The Navy had a supply ship that had a high percentage of females on board. It was a test case, which was to prove that females can serve with men and be thier equals. It turned out that almost 25% of the females on board get pregneant. The Navy had to fly in men to take over the duties, or otherwise the ship couldn't function. Almost a third of the females I deployed with get pregneant. None of this hit the papers. Nope, the DOD knows what's good for it, and winning wars always will be second fiddle to Political Correctness.
Pat| 12.21.10 @ 10:39AM
The pregnancy statistics aren't trumpeted in the media, but we do hear about them. Obviously not every guy on board a ship gets a girl. What does it do to the morale of the ones who don't fraternize to have all the romance taking place in their midst? Are they aware of it? Do they care?
Mike P.| 12.21.10 @ 7:15AM
The USCCB opposed segregation. Does that mean we can listen to what they say, Mike?
Greta| 12.21.10 @ 10:24AM
the USCCB opposed segregation? Where did that come from. The USCCB did not exist until after Vatican II and was left wing liberal and pro integration from the start. Not sure what segregation by race has anything to do with the choice to commit a gay act??? this has been a stupid argument from the beginning used by the gay community to say they have no control over themselves and must give into their weakness and temptation. Not true, they have a choice just as we all do with our weakness.
Richard Baker| 12.21.10 @ 9:37AM
Hlavac:
If I'm not mistaken, God Himself referred to your"unnatural acts" as evil in Romans and Leviticus. Poor baby. Hate the sin and love the sinner, old top.
Chuck Anziulewicz | 12.21.10 @ 10:04AM
DEAR MR. GUARDIANO:
Sorry about your luck on this issue. I hope you won't be too disappointed when all the problems you predict will happen because of the repeal of DADT, don't. All of our allies have successfully and uneventfully integrated Lesbians and Gay men into their militaries without problems. And most American military personnel already say they serve or have served with Gay soldiers without any problems.
I think it's also important to note that when young men age 18-25 register for Selective Service, they are not asked about their sexual orientation. And I suspect that if the United States ever finds itself in a major military conflict that requires reinstatement of the draft, the issue of Gays in the military is going to be the LEAST of our worries.
So calm down and get over yourself.
Greta| 12.21.10 @ 10:27AM
Not sure what proof you have that there have not been issues with any volunteer force of soldiers who have suddenly been forced to have openly gay soldiers serving together. We will have to pray for our soldiers and our country that this perversion being forced into their ranks does not cause them harm.
Richard Baker| 12.21.10 @ 10:11AM
Chuck:
Institutionalized Sexual Perversion is therefore acceptable?
Greta| 12.21.10 @ 10:31AM
I also notice that no one has taken up the argument on why this does not now violate the rights of men and women serving today who might also like to bunk and shower with those they are attracted to sexually. This policy states that openly gay people can serve which gives them rights not available to others since the definition of gay is someone sexually attracted to their own sex. I think a straight soldier should ask to be bunking with the women soldiers and if denied, file a lawsuit based on this repeal. Can someone explain why they would be prohibited based on the criteria of this new act?
Chuck Anziulewicz | 12.21.10 @ 10:35AM
DEAR RICHARD BAKER:
Call it what you want if it makes you feel righteous. And I really don't care if any soldier, Gay OR Straight, is disciplined or booted out of the military because of inappropriate conduct when on-duty.
That's not what's at issue here. A qualified soldier should not be at risk for losing his career simply because of who he's dating on his own time. Under DADT, if Sgt. Mike is dating another man off-base, and his commanding officer is informed of this and asks him about it, Sgt. Mike can either lie or tell the truth. Either way he is jeopardizing his military career.
Hold all soldiers to the same standards of professional behavior, regardless of their sexual orientation, and the military will be able to do its job just fine.
Richard Baker| 12.21.10 @ 11:06AM
Chuck:
Obviously, you've not served in uniform and your tut-tutting is indicative of someone who doen't have a clue as to REALITY.
9th ID| 12.21.10 @ 11:22AM
The Bradley Manning/WikiLeaks treason should have been the final nail in the coffin of repealing DADT, but the LameStream media refused to cover it in their pandering to the gay lobby. The Leftists knew Lame Duck was their last chance and they hit on the RINOs to make it happen.
Folks, if you think long and hard about it, the ONLY moral and long-term practical solution to DADT is to return to the original TOTAL ban under UCMJ. This served our nation and military very well for over 200 years. Once Obama's veto pen is removed in 2012 it will be possible. Until then the new congress can defund the DADT kitty, like ObamaCare, and also state governors can refuse to repeal DADT for the Nat'l Guard.
Dale Cord| 12.21.10 @ 1:47PM
Lets stop all the word manipulations and call a spade a spade, the crap of "POLITICALLY CORRECT" IS NONSENSE AND SHEAR FOLLY! It's main objective is to take the focus of bad and abominable behavior and make it acceptable,to a wrenched and immoral society called the Gay Community LOL. HOMOSEXUALS AND LESBIANS IS WHAT THEY ARE, and they have no shame for their perverted life style! They now openly confess to the world their decadent way of living, and the Insolent Bastards that except this ungodly behavior by catering to them, are just as guilty of promoting their mental disorder as those blaming their Creator for making them this way.How disgusting! The STDs that millions suffer and die from is because of bad choices and decisions each of us make in this life. How many have to die before any logic enters their pea brains, and convicts them of their perverted lust for the flesh of their same gender? It's unacceptable, and an incurable disease called "AIDS" is a Red Flag waving in your face,and has been for years now, killing millions every year. Turning a deaf ear and blind eye to these plagues will not make them go away, but a change in your life style will. Its your free will that will determine how long you live. I have a feeling that "LUST" will win out in the end though. A definite sign of the times is all around us, and the moral compass that used to keep us walking in the right and normal direction has fallen from our grasp. When I served in the military back in 1960 to 1970. the rules on Homosexuals were : When found out they would be medically discharged and a code would be put on their discharge documents, informing anyone who needed to know of their background to what ever purpose, that these people were abnormal in their sexual preference.The lack of Shame in this day and age is what has brought these people out of the closet in droves, and the lack of moral character by our state and city officials has allowed them to parade in our streets promoting their abnormal and sinful behavior. How putrefying!
Qholle| 12.21.10 @ 2:37PM
Sexual bonds between comrades was a common way to promote cohesion in the military of the Ancient Greek states. Everyone exhibited bisexual behavior. The Western, twentieth century understanding of sexual orientation, if it is to incorporate other cultures and eras, must therefore be interpreted as being the PRIMARY (not unique) sexual drive of a person. The Greek situation, however, changed as the expansion of the Abrahamic religions subverted the universal capacity to enjoy intimacy between two members of the same sex, at least among men, making such acts wrong, and further, making them effeminate. Consequently, homosexual behavior vanished in everyone but the most incapable of enjoying heterosexual sex or the most capable to endure social marginalization (often including androgynous individuals--strengthening the association of homosexuality with effeminacy).
We are just beginning a profound cultural shift back to the more natural situation where who a man lets see (or touch) his penis does not bear upon his standing as a man or his masculinity. Many pubescent boys enjoy masturbating together, or mutually. This behavior usually disappears once the social consequences of doing so are fully understood. We are possibly less than a generation or two away from when these "social consequences" are no longer there, and the "disappearing" no longer needs to happen. Only then will homosexuality have become fully mainstream, and objections to the repealing of DADT will sound mal-construed and antiquated.
9th ID| 12.21.10 @ 3:05PM
Yes, the demise of the Grecco-Roman cultures, among others, are a good example of how the last gasp of decadence in a society is usually open acceptance of homosexuality...
Qholle| 12.21.10 @ 4:49PM
The demise of the Greco-Roman culture actually happened in tandem with the rejection of homosexuality and the embrace of Judeo-christianity. But let's not conflate correlation with causation. The Roman empire fell because it was invaded by Germanic tribes.
But if we are going to inflate correlation with causation, let's not forget to mention that the nations with the highest indices of human wellness (general happiness, low crime, low rate of separation or divorce, low teenage birth rate, high social equality, etc.), are also those where gay rights have gone the farthest: North Europe.
9th ID| 12.22.10 @ 11:15AM
Wrong on all counts of your revisionist history. Moral decadence was the foundation for the fall of Greece and Rome not to mention Sodom & Gomorrah and others. Same goes for Europe. "Human Wellness" based on what? Dependence? I read recently that suicides are skyrocketing in the failing Socialist utopia of Northern Europe...
Jim Hlavac | 12.22.10 @ 5:52AM
What a fine debate, truly. I thank you all for it. Makes me think, to hone my arguments better. Still, I wish you all a Merry Christmas, with great sincerity.
But sometimes, well, you know, as Barry Goldwater said, extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Some of you don't see the irony or satire, sarcasm or recasting of the debate, such as I try. Nor the drama queen within me (and we are not called that for nothing!) I ain't perfect. Not to worry. We gay folks have the patience of Job and the fortitude of David. But to the culture war we say NUTS!
Now, you lions must lay down with us lambs, and just get over the fact that there are gay folks and we are not going anywhere.
Pass the eggnog, make it strong. We shall all need it.
Alessandra | 12.26.10 @ 2:23AM
Al Jazeera has a detailed article on:
On December 13, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and other groups filed a federal lawsuit seeking Pentagon records in order to get the real facts about the incidence of sexual assault in the ranks.
The Pentagon has consistently refused to release records that fully document the problem and how it is handled. Sexual assaults on women in the US military have claimed some degree of visibility, BUT ABOUT MALE VICTIMS THERE IS ABSOLUTE SILENCE.
Mountjoy-Pepka often works with male survivors of MST (Military sexual trauma). She stated in a telephone interview that four per cent of men in the military experience MST. “Most choose not to talk about it until after their discharge from the military, largely because the post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in over 60 percent of MST cases is too overwhelming,”
It will only get worse with DADT repeal.
Dale Cord| 12.28.10 @ 12:37PM
2011 a year that will live in Infamy. Future school history books will read: The year the Muslims conquered the United States of America. With not so much as a whimper from its cowardly military leaders, and name calling armchair patriots. Disgraceful,Shameful there are no words to adequately describe her defeat. As the 300 Spartans strength and ingenuity conquered all of those who challenged them, so a small band of renegades conquered the greatest country the world has known. When Davids rock slued Goliath. It also foretold a warning. "The bigger they are,the harder they Fall." Our country lost its battle of survival when it became intoxicated with its deceptive mentality, that it did not need its Creator anymore, and wisdom no longer was apart of its citizens physiology to survive