The American Spectator

Jocon307| 11.26.09 @ 9:48AM

"Of course, with private healthcare there are also "death panels." But at least you can shop around for an insurer who will be generously inclined towards your various ailments."

This is a very important point, and not sufficiently emphasized. An insurance company can only refuse to pay for a treatment, if the gov't is running the whole show the treatment can be denied altogether, not just to an individual patient, but to all.

Aaron| 11.26.09 @ 3:47PM

That's a good point, Jocon307.

I'm a liberal Democrat and I had never thought of Gubment-run healthcare like that before. It does make me uncomfortable but not enough to turn me into a complete cynic like the rest of you angry, terrified and bitter Conservatives.

If the gubment enacts a policy towards the public that we don't like, we can always change it. I think that's the main concern of Repubs that are in bed with insurance companies: that people will find out that gubment-run healthcare will be so awesome that they won't want it to ever go away, like Medicare and Medicaid.

Bob K.| 11.27.09 @ 1:10AM

Aaron,
Your quote here: "If the gubment enacts a policy towards the public that we don't like, we can always change it."

"We" should live so long!

That should make you even more uncomfortable!

Greg| 11.27.09 @ 11:24AM

The Canadian system may not be perfect but it's not as disastrous as it is made out to be. I have a huge family and many friends in Canada and stories from them of rationing, etc. are extremely rare. My friends' wife is 82 with cancer and she is now as we speak being treated quite aggressively with radiation and chemo. I have many, many m0re stories like this. I have never heard of ANYONE amongst the hundreds of Canadians I know being denied prompt treatment of serious illness or injury. You have to wait for elective treatment but that is a small price to pay.

The Canadian model will never work in the U.S. anyway so why bring it up. Too many powerful interests here.

Obamacare may not the answer but something should be done. You shouldn't have to go bankrupt just to get medical treatment in the U.S. and that goes on all the time.

Greg| 11.27.09 @ 11:34AM

Also, the notion that Canadians don't like the healthcare system is total bunk. There are numerous polls showing the population support the system by 80-90 %. That's just a simple fact you can find anywhere.

Canuck| 11.28.09 @ 12:37AM

Greg
Canadian Health care suffers from long waits to get treatment. Wealthier Canadian go to the United States for treatment to avoid the wait. Health care is rationed. For example the Alberta government budgets a given number of cataract surgeries and once the budget is spent it will not pay for anymore until the next budget year. The line up just gets longer. There are limitations on private insurance so that you cannot bypass the system unless you go to the US or overseas. The large majority of Canadians support Medicare. But then its a smaller fraction that have to face the system.

Michael Grossberg| 11.27.09 @ 1:14PM

Hey, Greg. Good point - but let's turn it around to make a similar point about U.S. attitudes toward health care. Do you think it would be wrong to force Canadians to give up their current health care, since 80 to 90 percent "support" it? If so, wouldn't you also want to oppose any coercive government effort to force Americans to give up their health care, which polls similarly show 80+ percent "support" (are very happy with)?
Yet, Obamacare is being pushed on us, to allegedly help the small number (much smaller than commonly reported) who actually can't afford health insurance (as opposed to those who can afford to pay it, but don't choose to, or the many others who don't have insurance but still have adequate health care (in their own estimate) . The truth is that government meddling in health care gott us into this dangerous mess, and only repeal of all government distortions of the market place and full empowerment of individual choice will get us out of it.

Philosopher| 11.27.09 @ 7:28PM

Some real world points and experiences to contrast with Greg's comments above:
1. The 'Death by Bureaucrat' concept exists/happens in Canada. My wife's grandmother (80+) was denied treatment for Pancreatic cancer which is what killed her in the end. She was an operable scenario that didn't happen due to cost.
2. The Canadian model won't work here because value our FREEDOM and ability to choose and run our own lives. The 'powerful interests' are a typical uninformed stereotype that Canadians use to make themselves feel better about the crushing tax burden of their system. I can't count the number of times someone up north called their health care 'free'! (and what about teeth? why the lack of coverage there?)
3. There is no large contingent of anyone 'going bankrupt' in the US getting health care either. Another uninformed comment. If you are employed (a mass majority of people even in these times) you have superior care to that in Canada. Why? You choose what you want done and you get it much faster. This is proved by numerous Canadians always coming to the US when they need good care and they need it now. Why is it none of the US rush to Canada for medical treatment? If we socialize, alot of Canadians will be screwed.
If you are elderly and haven't enough money you have Medicare and if you are unskilled and poor you have Medicaid coverage. If you are penniless and illegal, you are still NEVER denied treatment in an emergency room.
3. The real answer to the health care debate is not a false choice between a distorted system (Michael above is right on) and a government-run worse solution. The answer is going back to a unfettered free market that provides an accessable level of pricing and quality for everyone vs. the insured/uninsured division today. Get out the way, Government!

Here's a summary of that solution instead of just gripes and snipes of how bad things are:
http://pracphilosblog.wordpres.....socialism/

Valerie| 11.28.09 @ 12:43AM

Yeah, like the way we can always change the Income Tax, riiiight?

Jim Hlavac| 11.28.09 @ 10:51AM

So, either government insurance or company insurance? -- and not a word about just being allowed to save our own money and buy what we want when we want it. If it was decreed that every one save $25 to $50 a week, then in a few short years we'd all have a million or so to buy the health care directly from the seller, and not ask permission. Then for the truly catastrophic, which affect so few, then we could have a $5 a week or something insurance -- the numbers are sort of irrelevant to the logic for it still would be cheap and manageable, even if $25 a week catastrophic insurance coverage. But, by having insurance tied to jobs you are tied to your job, and if the government takes care of it, then you are at the mercy of unseen political forces. But to say that there is only private job-related insurance to cover everything or government insurance to cover everything ignores the fact that by saving our own money we would not have to ask anyone for anything. And health care would be much more responsive to those demand signals. Instead, it's either / or some sort of third party payer system , and then the new "reform" supposedly puts further limits on saving your own money. This all makes no sense. Health expenses are like furniture and clothes, they will be necessary, but we make our own decisions on two out of three. Homeowner's insurance is like catastrophic care, and it runs about $100 a month in my experience, but almost is never used.

CoolCzech| 11.28.09 @ 9:16PM

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about Europe and Canada. I just don't care WHAT they do. Europe & Canada are not America: they don't have our values of rugged self-reliance, distrust of too much government, and belief that "elites" are self-serving groups to be held at arm's distance. In short, all the things that have made America the the beacon for the world, the Land of Opportunity, don't apply there.

What I care is that socialism has created stagnant societies wherever it's been tried, and I want America to remain the most dynamic society on Earth. The trillions Obama wants to spend on "healthcare" and on the "Cap & Trade" carbon scam will impoverish the lives of future Americans, turning them into drab, depressing, lifeless, mediocre versions of themselves. In short, turning them into Canadians and Europeans. Who the hell needs that?