The American Spectator

Patrick Burger| 11.8.09 @ 12:48AM

Watch what happens to the 39 Democrats who voted against the House health care bill! Count how many of the 215 'Republicans' who voted NO, who are running next year, who won't get re-elected.

Keep it up! You Neo-cons, and avid (read illiterate) followers/supporters are cooking your own goose! Keep it up!

Eric Cartman| 11.8.09 @ 11:35AM

Patty lives in her own socialist Eden where everybody loves paying for other people's stuff - except people like Patty. In her dreams, she's the one running things. Bu bye, Patty. You're party just lost 2010 :-)

Kenny| 11.8.09 @ 1:38PM

Fake-Cartman lives in alternate Universe where everybody loves subsidizing the rich, and where it's perfectly acceptable for wealthy CEOs to profit off the death of others.

Cartman's Motto: "the world doesn't owe you a living, but you owe us your obedience! Now bend over."

Buh-bye Fake-Cartman, the republicans are quickly becoming a minority power dominated by aging racist white southern men. Your party just lost the rest of the century.

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 2:10PM

To: Kenny
Funny, It was generations of “aging racist southern white men” who took a insignificant appendage of the British Empire and built the worlds only superpower. It was because of their efforts you are not living the life of a medieval serf. You might consider a small bit of gratitude and a large dose of facts before you post.

doug| 11.8.09 @ 2:38PM

the times have changed dixie your argument based on past events is not valuable in the present

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 3:00PM

To: Doug
The present exists on the foundation of the past.
Mater constantly changes but time only flows.
It is everyones problem that Liberals / Progressives refuse to learn from the past.

Josh| 11.8.09 @ 3:29PM

You just said verbatim that what we should take from the past is that being white and racist is what won the Revolutionary War. That's moronic. The moral shortcomings of our forefathers is not what won the war, it was the intelligence and "progressive" ideas. In the 1700s freedom of speech, religion, press, and assembly were literally radical liberal ideals as viewed by the highly traditional British. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" may not have been used the same way back then as they are today, but make no mistake. It was not "stick-to-your-values" conservatism that won that war.

moderate southerner| 11.8.09 @ 4:05PM

+1 to josh

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 5:05PM

To: Josh
You are confusing labels with ideas and misapplying both to people who would consider the current “Progressive” ideas insane. Besides where did you get the notion “Progressive” ideas are a advancement in human civilization.

If you read the literature of the relevant time periods you will find during the 1700's it was a “Progressive” idea to raise the black man from “Savagery” to a “Christian Civilization”through the use of enslavement. The “Progressive” idea was it was more important to save souls than to upgrade their economic condition.
I will not rehash how “Progressive” ideas led straight to the Nazi death camps and the Soviet Gulag system. That is well documented history and if you reject the lessons of recent history then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

PS::: The previous post should read “Matter constantly changes but time only flows”
I humbly apologize to any makers of astrolabes I accidentally offended.

Very Cool Dad| 11.8.09 @ 5:37PM

Haha. It is an obvious connect you just can't be arsed to explain.

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 7:40PM

Thanks V.C.D
When in an argument with people who react like Ivan Petrovich Pavlov's more demented test subjects it is best to go with the more obscure joke. You can lead a Liberal to Knowledge but you can't make him Think.
Most Liberals stop thinking when they see the words “white” , “southern” or “racist” and go into conditioned response mode. Besides, I don't see any point in trying to defend the more nasty acts of a extinct civilization.

chris| 11.8.09 @ 5:50PM

I wonder if Dixie knows that democracy was as progressive of an idea as "Nazi Death Camps". It amazes me how Americans dont pursue new ideas when that was what our country was founded on.

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 9:07PM

Never mind the state of my knowledge, a more important question is whether Pelosi, Reid and Obama consider democracy a progressive idea worth pursuing.

Lancer| 11.9.09 @ 9:33PM

+1

Lancer| 11.9.09 @ 9:51PM

+1 to Josh that is.

I don't know why it's so upsetting to some people to help out others. As a society, we could decide to become Ryandians and never help out another person, and horde our wealth and not look beyond our "castle walls." But we tried feudalism (AKA trickle down economics). Eventually people get tired of being peasants, organize, build schools, and help each other to topple those that economically and 'legally' (for the time) oppressed them.

Why is it so much to ask to help out everyone with their health insurance needs? What I hear most from those people is that it is 'never' too much to spend trillions on a military we never need except when we get a leader that behaves badly.

I understand that tanks and cool military helicopters is sexier than Basic Universal Health Care. Transformers/Iron Man were great movies. Yes it's important to defend the country. Do you feel it's possible to overspend in that area? Do you feel that the manufacturers of military equipment sometimes whine to much when the budget is cut or don't abuse their power over senators? Do you believe that it's important not to over spend on things we don't need?

Do you think a sick person needs a $10,000 operation has a need? A need that is much more clear than the vagueness of needing to be "the worlds only superpower."

Let's not pretend that we need health care less.
Let's not pretend that health care costs so much when other budgets, such as the pentagon budget, dwarfs everything else.

Less tanks, more health care.

Perry| 11.8.09 @ 4:18PM

Actually, it was the north's industry and innovation and the south's exploitation of slave labor that made this country what it is today.

While the Democrats might be slow to bite the hand that feeds them until they get this legislation passed, it was 8 years of pointless wars and tax cuts to the rich that got us in the situation we're in.

While the democrats in congress are far from the ideal "for the people" politicians they're supposed to be, republicans are really more of a reality tv show train wreck than a political party these days. They represent a freakishly sheltered and paranoid few. If one good things comes of this it might be that we eventually get a decent third party that can bring a solid policy debate to the democrat's table, instead of just made up facts, name calling, and scare tactics.

Eric Cartman| 11.8.09 @ 3:33PM

It's Fake- Kenny actually pointing out I use noms de plume!? Good for the dull witted! LOL. Has the Fake-Kenny forgotten about Tuedays' vote?! He must have. Who wants to bet Fake-Kenny is Patty? Kenny, are you so stupid as to pick a character that always dies? Poor Kenny, so socialist, so dumb. It's dangerous to type without a brain, Fake Kenny.

RS| 11.9.09 @ 8:51AM

Don't be a jerk.

T-bone| 11.8.09 @ 2:35PM

Thomas Jefferson, declared, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Did Jefferson have a crystal ball when he spoke these words? Has a private bank taken control over our nation's money supply?

The following is a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco, Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account of that conversation reconstructed to the best of my ability from notes taken during the conversation on October 8, 1992.
CALLER - Mr. Supinski, does my country own the Federal Reserve System?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are an agency of the government.

CALLER - That's not my question. Is it owned by my country?

MR. SUPINSKI - It is an agency of the government created by congress.

CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes CALLER - Does my government own any of the stock in the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - No, it is owned by the member banks.

CALLER - Are the member banks private corporations?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes CALLER - Are Federal Reserve Notes backed by anything?

MR. SUPINSKI -Yes, by the assets of the Federal Reserve but, primarily by the power of congress to lay tax on the people.

CALLER - Did you say, by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes CALLER - What are the total assets of the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - The San Francisco Bank has $36 Billion in assets.

CALLER - What are these assets comprised of?

MR. SUPINSKI - Gold, the Federal Reserve Bank itself and government securities.

CALLER - What value does the Federal Reserve Bank carry gold per oz. on their books?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't have that information but the San Francisco Bank has $1.6 billion in gold.

CALLER - Are you saying the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has $1.6 billion in gold, the bank itself and the balance of the assets is government securities?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes.

CALLER - Where does the Federal Reserve get Federal Reserve Notes from?

MR. SUPINSKI - They are authorized by the Treasury.

CALLER - How much does the Federal Reserve pay for a $10 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - Fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - How much do they pay for a $100.00 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - The same fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - To pay only fifty cents for a $100.00 is a tremendous gain, isn't it?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - According to the U.S. Treasury, the Federal Reserve pays $20.60 per 1,000 denomination or a little over two cents for a $100.00 bill, is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is probably close.

CALLER - Doesn't the Federal Reserve use the Federal Reserve Notes that cost about two cents each to purchase U.S. Bonds from the government?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, but there is more to it than that.

CALLER - Basically, that is what happens?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, basically you are correct.

CALLER - How many Federal Reserve Notes are in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - $263 billion and we can only account for a small percentage.

CALLER - Where did they go?

MR. SUPINSKI - Peoples mattress, buried in their back yards and illegal drug money.

CALLER - Since the debt is payable in Federal Reserve Notes, how can the $4 trillion national debt be paid-off with the total Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - If the Federal Government would collect every Federal Reserve Note in circulation would it be mathematically possible to pay the $4 trillion national debt?

MR. SUPINSKI - No CALLER - Am I correct when I say, $1 deposited in a member bank $8 can be lent out through Fractional Reserve Policy?

MR. SUPINSKI - About $7.

CALLER - Correct me if I am wrong but, $7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either. In other words, the Federal Reserve Notes were not physically printed but, in reality were created by a journal entry and lent at interest. Is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes CALLER - Is that the reason there are only $263 billion Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is part of the reason.

CALLER - Am I mistaking that when the Federal Reserve Act was passed (on Christmas Eve) in 1913, it transferred the power to coin and issue our nations money and to regulate the value thereof from Congress to a Private corporation. And my country now borrows what should be our own money from the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) plus interest. Is that correct and the debt can never be paid off under the current money system of country?

MR. SUPINSKI - Basically, yes.

CALLER - I smell a rat, do you?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am sorry, I can't answer that, I work here.

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been independently audited?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are audited.

CALLER - Why is there a current House Resolution 1486 calling for a complete audit of the Federal Reserve by the G.A.O. and why is the Federal Reserve resisting?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - Does the Federal Reserve regulate the value of Federal Reserve Notes and interest rates?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the U.S., which comprises of the Senate and the House of Representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof? [Article 1 Section 1 and Section 8] Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am not an expert on constitutional law. I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - I can tell you I have read the Constitution. It does NOT provide that any power granted can be transferred to a private corporation. Doesn't it specifically state, all other powers not granted are reserved to the States and to the citizens? Does that mean to a private corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't think so, but we were created by Congress.

CALLER - Would you agree it is our country and it should be our money as provided by our Constitution?

MR. SUPINSKI - I understand what you are saying.

CALLER - Why should we borrow our own money from a private consortium of bankers? Isn't this why we had a revolution, created a separate sovereign nation and a Bill of Rights?

MR. SUPINSKI - (Declined to answer).

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe there has been court cases on the matter.

CALLER - Have they been Supreme Court Cases?

MR. SUPINSKI - I think so, but I am not sure.

CALLER - Didn't the Supreme Court declare unanimously in A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corp. vs. U.S. and Carter vs. Carter Coal Co. the corporative-state arrangement an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power? ["The power conferred is the power to regulate. This is legislative delegation in its most obnoxious form; for it is not even delegation to an official or an official body, presumptively disinterested, but to private persons."
Carter vs. Carter Coal Co.]

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know, I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?

MR. SUPINSKI - It appears that way. I can tell you have been looking into this matter and are very knowledgeable. However, we do have a solution.

CALLER - What is the solution?

MR. SUPINSKI - The Debit Card.

CALLER - Do you mean under the E.F.T. Act (Electronic Funds Transfer)? Isn't that very frightening, when one considers the capabilities of computers? It would provide the government and all it's agencies, including the Federal Reserve such information as: You went to the gas station @ 2:30 and bought $10.00 of unleaded gas @ $1.41 per gallon and then you went to the grocery store @ 2:58 and bought bread, lunch meat and milk for $12.32 and then went to the drug store @ 3:30 and bought cold medicine for $5.62. In other words, they would know where we go, when we went, how much we paid, how much the merchant paid and how much profit he made. Under the E.F.T. they will literally know everything about us. Isn't that kind of scary?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, it makes you wonder.

CALLER - I smell a GIANT RAT that has overthrown my constitution. Aren't we paying tribute in the form of income taxes to a consortium of private bankers?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't call it tribute, it is interest.

CALLER - Haven't all elected officials taken an oath of office to preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic? Isn't the Federal Reserve a domestic enemy?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't say that.

CALLER - Our elected officials and members of the Federal Reserve are guilty of aiding and abetting the overthrowing of my Constitution and that is treason. Isn't the punishment of treason death?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe so.

CALLER - Thank you for your time and information and if I may say so, I think you should take the necessary steps to protect you and your family and withdraw your money from the banks before the collapse, I am.

MR. SUPINSKI - It doesn't look good.

CALLER - May God have mercy on the souls who are behind this unconstitutional and criminal act called the Federal Reserve. When the ALMIGHTY MASS awakens to this giant hoax, they will not take it with a grain of salt. It has been a pleasure talking to you and I thank you for your time. I hope you will take my advice before it does collapse.

MR. SUPINSKI - Unfortunately, it does not look good.

CALLER - Have a good day and thanks for your time.

MR. SUPINSKI - Thanks for calling.

Realtor Rod| 11.8.09 @ 3:12PM

Coming from a Canadian with limited US political education, the above phone conversation strikes me with a fear that must grip a lot of American citizens... I cannot imagine the result of a TRULY independent audit of the Federal Reserve.

Pooh| 11.8.09 @ 3:42PM

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."
- U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter written Nov. 21, 1933 to Colonel E. Mandell House

“If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations.”
- Andrew Jackson

“The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.”
- Abraham Lincoln

We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."
- Bill Clinton, USA Today on 3/11/93, page 2a

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
- Henry Ford

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
- Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference in Evians, France, 1991

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining super capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
- Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
- David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

"It is the system of nationalist individualism that has to go....We are living in the end of the sovereign states....In the great struggle to evoke a Westernized World Socialism, contemporary governments may vanish....Countless people...will hate the new world order....and will die protesting against it." - H.G. Wells, in his book, “The New World Order”, 1940

“Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... If you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit.”
- Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1940.

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years... It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
- David Rockefeller, Bilderberg Meeting, June 1991 Baden, Germany

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependent on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." - Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
“Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws."
- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.” –
Abraham Lincoln - In a letter written to William Elkin

"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all."
- Strobe Talbot, President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, Time Magazine, July 20th, l992

A quote from David Rockefeller's autobiography 'Memoirs' -
"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will.

If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

air| 11.8.09 @ 6:38PM

"Patty lives in her own socialist Eden where everybody loves paying for other people's stuff." That is how it has been for a lot of things in this country, post office, fire fighters, police, public libraries, colleges. We pay taxes to have access to these things, why should health care be different?

Mike| 11.8.09 @ 10:48PM

Of the things you state, who controls the use and rationing of them? Certainly not you.

Carl| 11.8.09 @ 2:29PM

Both Repubs and Dems ARE OWNED BY INTERNATIONAL BANKS.

Keep fighting left vs. right and you keep making those international bankers very, very happy.

They are robbing you and destroying the country by keeping you divided and controlling both of the major parties.

DO SOME REAL RESEARCH ON THE FEDERAL RESERVE

WAKE UP PEOPLE

victor| 11.8.09 @ 7:44AM

Dear Mr. Burger,
On the contrary, it will be you that will be voted out.
Cooking our own goose?
1994 will be a child's tea party compared to 2010!
Enjoy your big party statism while you can.

Jacob| 11.8.09 @ 8:51AM

What office does Burger hold that he'll be voted out of?

martin j smith| 11.8.09 @ 7:54AM

Do not get side tracked by the provocations of PB--get organized for get out the vote for 2010 and 2012. Le the PBs of the world rant all they want to. Just get the message out the BO needs and his fellow travelers need to be checked to prevent the destruction of this country.

victor| 11.8.09 @ 8:08AM

Agreed!

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 12:42PM

God bless the 39 Democrats for voting NO to the Leviathan "Health Bill," that will destroy our freedom as we know it.
Now, why don't all of you who had the conscience to vote NO, come on over and join the Republican Party and be done with the Left altogether?
You KNOW it's killing you!

ANON| 11.8.09 @ 1:19PM

Why dont we join the republicans? LOL! You mean the party that spent 8 years under bush doing more to destroy freedom in this country that anyone could have ever imagined?

I've got a better idea, why dont all you sheeple wake up and stop voting for either party?

Aj| 11.8.09 @ 2:24PM

Both parties are the CORPORATE party. Neither party is looking out for the people, it's a sham. Until people realize that, this country is screwwwwed

infowars.com

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 3:13PM

Utopia doesn't exist. Hasn't your Mommy ever taught to about the flower-power generation?

Gandhi| 11.9.09 @ 4:05AM

You must be the change you wish to see in the world.

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 3:12PM

I see, ANON~~ So you like it better under the Muslim President do you?
Sorry to hear that. You're part of the problem.

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 5:21PM

Obama is not a Muslim.

And so what if he was? There's nothing wrong with Muslims.

Mark | 11.8.09 @ 5:39PM

Obama is a muslim. Otherwise he would have said so rather than bow down to a King of Arabia. And there is something wrong with Muslims. They kill people and hide behind peace-seeking muslims so that their culture cannot be annihilated. These "peace-striving" muslims are feeding the problem by cloaking the work of the killers who worship on mats next to them. They are just as bad as the killers themselves.

But do not be deceived. Obama is not a Christian. He didn't even know the works of his previous religious leader who was more Muslim than Christian hisself.

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 5:49PM

Wow. You really super sized your order of crazy.

Unfortunately you're the kind of ignorant individual that is too delusional to talk any sense into. Your society always finds a certain culture to hate irrationally. It's like you can't breathe unless you're seething with hatred, whether it be directed at women, blacks, Japanese, Hispanics, gays, fatties, and now Muslims. After another generation goes by and their children grow up in a more tolerant society, I wonder who they'll be taught to hate next?

tim b faggers| 11.8.09 @ 7:01PM

do not be deceived: you're a big fag

LOLcat| 11.8.09 @ 12:55PM

You people are hilarious. Health care will destroy freedom! LOLOLOL

Tyler| 11.8.09 @ 2:15PM

Anybody know how were gonna pay for this? Is it just me or is a trillion dollars a lot of money?

Joe| 11.8.09 @ 2:52PM

This video does a pretty good job of breaking down how we're going to pay for Health Care and our other ventures, like the bailout, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

Tim| 11.8.09 @ 12:55PM

Margie, you appear to be a complete idiot.

Anthony| 11.8.09 @ 1:02PM

I love you for the above observation, Tim.

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 3:09PM

Do explain, Tim.

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 6:37PM

Now that's what I call Manly Men! Hit and run cowards.

Eric Cartman's Mom| 11.8.09 @ 1:01PM

Typical dumb Cuntservative blog...
Keep phucking that chicken! Losers HaHaHa!

Lynn Mo| 11.8.09 @ 1:02PM

It is unreal that all these men feel they can make decisions for women. I think before they can oppose the things they do they must have to pole all the women in their area. I am a public school teacher I would rather see an abortion at 2 weeks than an abused child at 5 years. The next time abortion speaks I think all the women in the US should rise!

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 3:19PM

You don't get to play God and decide who survives and who doesn't. You don't have the right to murder an unborn child. It isn't up to you or any woman to make the rules as to whether HIS created human being is allowed to live or die.
Just who do you think you are?

James| 11.8.09 @ 4:05PM

That's right...you don't have the right to murder an unborn child. Let that child grow up in poverty unloved and cared for (an uneducated) let that child murder and rape a few people. Then let the people that were against the mother having an abortion put that child on death row to be executed. That's the way it should be...sorry that's the way it is.

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 4:13PM

Who says the child would be unloved? You don't have the right to decide another human being's life or future. There are plenty of Parents who would adopt an "unwanted child." Unwanted perhaps by you, but every child is precious in God's sight.
Let's apply your logic to yourself, then. What if your own Mother would have decided she didn't want you? Oh, that's different, isn't it? I'm sure you think you "deserved" to be born?

Hetfield| 11.8.09 @ 5:46PM

Why do Pro-choice liberals not see that they, in 99% of the cases, had the choice to say no at the moments before conception. Unfortunately for the COH or Chicks-In-Heat, they didn't say no and they conceived a child. But at that point these COH want another choice to destroy the life of the child that they now carry in their womb.

You had your choice. Now make the right choice and love that child and let it grow up in a good home. If you can't, give the child to someone who can.

Kelly| 11.8.09 @ 6:41PM

I don't care about your opinions on abortion but I do care that you've forgotten that conception is a two person event.

Logic| 11.8.09 @ 7:32PM

To borrow Justin's metaphor:
You just ordered a super side of crazy with that whopper.

Seriously. Your lack of logic is astounding. If his mother, or your mother, or even my mother had had an abortion is irrelevant. He, you, or I would not exist and this debate would be waged by other people. Additionally, if you believe in Heaven, as I am sure you probably do, then wouldn't it be better to have remained in Heaven as one of God's children then be born on Earth to suffer the fate of man?

Now let's play a logic game.
Premise:
1) Suppose a human embryo has one soul.
Argument:
1) Until the end of the second week, a mammalian embryo can divide to form twins, triplets, etc.
2) Suppose you have an abortion during those initial fourteen days.
3) So then, you have killed one child/soul.
4) However, if the abortion was carried out on the fifteenth day, you might have killed two children/souls, three children/souls, etc.
5) So then, during the first two weeks an embryo has no soul otherwise multiple souls must inhabit one embryo.

;) I welcome your Logical rebuttal.

Aj| 11.9.09 @ 4:07AM

I'm sorry Margie, but don't expect anyone to listen to you. Utopia doesn't exist.

Spc Sickles| 11.9.09 @ 3:38PM

Margie,
I am an atheist. I am also an American soldier in our army. I don't believe in "HIM" as you put it. SO...who do you think YOU are DICTATING who can control their body. Now...go ahead. Call me UN-American. I dare you. I will continue to FIGHT to protect your ignorant ass so you can continue to spew your hate and divisional tactics. This topic has a direct tie to the SEPERATION of church and state. Go read some literature, aka. the bible. FREE CHOICE is a gift from your "GOD" and exercising that "gift" is our option. If you don't want to have an abortion...DONT. However, it is not your responsibility to tell others what to do with their lives and with such a delicate topic which is deeply personal and different for every situation.
This is why I HATE modern religion. You think you know better than anyone with different beliefs than you.

Margie| 11.10.09 @ 3:11PM

There is NO such ting as separation of church and state. YOU need to do some reading.

It is not anyone's RIGHT to commit murder. There IS a God, whether you believe in Him or not, and whether you like it or not.

There is a Judgment Day and it's coming soon.
I'm sorry you don't believe in God. But I thank you for your service to our great country.
God bless you, sir.

Jonathan Lloyd| 11.8.09 @ 4:53PM

Point 1: We don't know why every one of these reps voted NO; some may have voted no because their could have been a much better, much more affordable Medicare-for-all plan offered up for a vote. Point2: not all were men. And not all women automatically want legalized abortion. 51% of those babies aborted are female. And who are you to presume abuse at age 5?

Stan's dad| 11.8.09 @ 5:41PM

Clinton did a pretty decent job of poling the women in his area...

John| 11.9.09 @ 6:50AM

haha nice!

Wes| 11.8.09 @ 1:06PM

1.2 trillion (cost of bill) divided by 120 million (rough # of taxpaying citizens, children and retired dont count) = $10,000

That means $20,000 my wife and I have to pay for your BS social medicine program. Thanks a lot. I know who wont be getting my vote ever again.

Hey Liberals, please stop trying to "change to worls" and just get a real job. Once you start paying taxes youll realize why we are soooo mad. An additional $20k in taxes over 10 years so I can pay for the 34million people that are too lazy to work or just dont want health insurance.

Sator| 11.8.09 @ 1:18PM

Oh NO!!! Does this mean that you and your wife have to do something for someone else beside yourselves!?

Dixie Pixie| 11.8.09 @ 2:22PM

To: Sator
Have you considered giving a eviction notice to the family of squirrels living inside your head. No one should be required to fund your notions of charity.

Ted| 11.8.09 @ 10:25PM

This ridiculous comment is exactly why there is such a large divide in this country. I thought that after the country voted for Obama bipartisanship would be the call of the day. That went out the window when liberals realized that America isn't clamoring for Universal Healthcare.

Obama doesn't much seem to care about the will of the people just, what many would refer to as a radical agenda, hellbent on bringing this country closer to a socialized country.

I am angry because I have to pay for others to be insured. Apparently, just paying MY bills and MY taxes and taking care of MY family isn't enough for uninformed liberals like Sator.

Maybe Sator's time would be better spent doing something other than dictating how others spend their money.

mike| 11.8.09 @ 11:50PM

so that 20k that you would have to pay, you don't already pay for through privatized Health insurance? The health insurance that spends 30% on administration costs, the highest in the world, compared to the 15% medicare runs on, or 11% Canada and other nations with universal health care run off? The same $20,000 that would then be paid back to you when you get sick, ill or injured becuase it would be your source of health insurance? you mean that $20,000 in this ever so horrible universal health care idea that is evil and every other developed nation uses

wes| 11.11.09 @ 12:54AM

Yes, I already pay that, actually a little more. The bill does not erase that cost for me it ADDS IT ON FOR ANYBODY WITH A ABOVE AVERAGE INCOME. And no, im not a good enough person to pay for mine and someone elses healthcare.

John| 11.8.09 @ 1:29PM

You seem to think that there are jobs out there for Americans to earn enough to pay for healthcare. In fact your entire economy relies on tricking millions into believing that they can "make it", when in fact it needs them slinging tacos, and moping up messes for minimum wage. America is a chump-ocracy.

Maybe if people were paid a living wage, you wouldn't need to pay for socialized healthcare, but if you're going to keep slaves, you at least have to take good care of them.

(I'm Canadian btw. We take care of our sick up here... and guess what? I have more freedom than you do.)

On economy:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19669

Freedom in general:
http://www.privacyinternationa.....347-559597

Nobody is going to put you in a FEMA camp, and chances are you won't have to wear a Che tee shirt. So relax tex.

John| 11.8.09 @ 1:43PM

And just so we're clear... I'm aware that the US is "more free" economically... but I consider it better to live in a society where I'm not being watch. I included the economic rating to show that our nations are comparable.

Ben| 11.8.09 @ 2:36PM

It seems that the concept of insurance is one that you don't completely understand...

Sure, you may pay a little more in taxes for this (but then again, everyone does). Money has relative value only and this is why income tax works - if everyone pays at the same rate (for the same earnings) then the market naturally (re)acquires equilibrium based upon the new (net) earnings.

The 10k that you pay (each) will be, over the years, far, far less than what you'll pay currently _if_ you get sick. Sure, if you never get sick then the insurance doesn't pay off (just like if you don't have a car accident, etc). But hey, that's good right?

And therein lies the remedial lesson in how insurance works. It's designed to "level out" the system and prevent sudden and ruinous financial "spikes" that can occur (to _you_ or anybody else).

In addition, those that do get sick are supported, which is also cost effective because they don't place burden on the system (by the person going bankrupt, or having to live with an existing condition that keeps on costing).

It's not socialism (that is absolutely absurd), it is simply applying a well-known and well-tested capitalistic tool (insurance) to a problem that has wide social implications. Once again, capitalism works.

Ben

Wes| 11.8.09 @ 8:22PM

*WRONG* Ben your a dumbass.... I pay $360/mo for 5 people (me/wife/3kids). I dont really want ot pay another $160/mo (20k/10yrs/2ppls) for all the lazy ass people that dont want to work hard and pay for there OWN insurance.

Like a lot of americans I am slf made and dont feel like paying extra for the druggies/drunks/lazies/hippes that live in every culture. BTW.... Where was health insurance 100 years ago???? Its such a need for you liberals... did you all just die a century ago??? No.... people live just fine without healthcare. I dont/wont pay for yours!!!!

mike| 11.9.09 @ 12:00AM

There wasn't health insurance 100 years ago, you got sick, and if you wern't among the elite, you probably died, and even if you were the elite, there probably wasn't a cure or treatment for it and you died any ways. Got take a look at a little thing call life expectancy, compare 100 years ago to today.

And universal health care wouldn't just help all the lazy/druggies/drunks/hippies you hate so much, it would also help business's provide health care to their workers, thus reducing their costs, allowing them to be more competitive in the world market. Being more competitive means more revenue, which means more jobs and better pay to employees. Hell, under a truly universal health care system, you wouldn't be paying that $360 to your insurance provider, it would go to the Universal health care fund through taxes instead, and becuase every one is covered, and theirs no need for the ridiculous 30% overhead, and appeasing share holders, that $360 will go a lot farther and help cover every one, not just your family.

But hey, good rebuttal.

wes| 11.11.09 @ 1:01AM

HOLY CRAP YOU PEOPLE ARE SOOOOOO STUPID..... READ WHAT THIS BILL IS ABOUT. IT COST $$$1.2TRILLION AND DOES NOT ELIMITATE THE AMOUNT 80% OF AMERICANS ALREADY PAY. ALL THE $1,200,000,000,000 DOES IS PAY FOR THE 20% UNINSURED AND GIVE ME A "PUBLIC OPTION".

BTW... THE PUBLIC OPTION IS GOING TO BE MORE $$ THAT CURRENT PRIVATE PLANS ACCORDING TO THE PEOPLE THAT WROTE THE BILL.

I fucked your wife| 11.8.09 @ 4:46PM

Hey your wife will need to pay 12k after I fist her while 2 black guys ejaculate on her face.

Jack| 11.8.09 @ 1:18PM

Hey Wes. I hope you lose your fucking job and have to rely on state assistance. From what I can tell, it's probably an unskilled job, so it's only a matter of time.

Using your fuzzy numbers, that $20,000, over the course of tens years, comes out to $3.85 per week. If that's too much for you to pay to help out your fellow human beings, then you are truly a horrible person. Though I suppose you're just representative of the republican party.

wes| 11.8.09 @ 8:23PM

Hey Jack.... I own my company you stupid less-than-60k-a-year dumbass

wes| 11.8.09 @ 8:30PM

20k over 10 yrs= $3.85 wk??? Ur really a dumba$#.... 20,000/10=2,000yr/2ppl=$1000/50(working weeks)=$20

$20 I and my wife have to give to your stupid homeless liberal a$%. If you want free healthcare go to canada and leave up smart prosperus people alone.

what's a worl?| 11.8.09 @ 1:18PM

hey wes, a lot of people do work and pay taxes and still cannot afford health insurance at the ridiculous prices around. does that really make them lazy?

Tom| 11.8.09 @ 1:23PM

According to the CBO, the House bill that just passed will cause insurance premiums for plans outside the public exchange for a family to rise to $15,000 per year by 2016. You think insurance is expensive now, just wait until this plan takes hold. Oh, yeah, if you don't buy it, you go to jail for 5 years and are fined $250,000.

Rhawk187| 11.8.09 @ 1:22PM

A big thank you for trying to all of the Representative's listed above. We almost stopped Pelosi-care, but that just means we're going to have to try harder in the Senate.

OC California| 11.8.09 @ 1:22PM

we're already paying for your social securiy, public schools, medicare etc, whats a little more to ensure most people get good coverage? you make it seem like its going to cost half your paycheck, cheapskates. people are so quick to toss money at fighting a war, building another church or golfcourse, but whenever something as important as healthcare, mass transit and other programs that benefit everyone, you all start complaining about the cost. First rate countries like Canada, UK and France have proved that societies who have a national health care absolutely love it and wouldnt know what to do w/o it. people who point fingers and tell others to 'get jobs' and pay for your own healthcare are so short sighted and selfish, in this economy have fun getting your insurance when you get laid off because your company decides to ship jobs overseas. national health care is a good idea and we should at least try it for twenty years or so and see how it works.

Tom| 11.8.09 @ 1:30PM

First of all, building a church or golf course is done with private funds, not taxpayer money.

Second of all, have you actually spoken with people from Canada, UK, and France or are you just regurgitating your MoveOn.org talking points? I've spoken with Canadians and Britons (haven't spoken with any French) and the ones I've spoken to aren't too enamored with their health care system. They all say the QUALITY of care is fine....when they can get it. Many Britons have taken to pulling their own teeth because the wait list to see a dentist is too long.

The UK and Canada have a fraction of the population the US has, and their public health care systems are going bankrupt. Putting 300 million people in a government program and expecting it to not go bankrupt is idiotic. Look at Medicare, which only covers about 20% of the population and it's going bankrupt...even sooner, now, since this bill takes 1/2 of Medicare's funding and gives it to Obamacare.

Robert| 11.8.09 @ 2:25PM

I live in the UK and while the NHS isn't perfect, it's very good. No-one gets turned away from a hospital because they don't have insurance.
Admittedly there aren't too many NHS Dentists, but generally speaking that's ok as we're not talking life and death. Besides which you can get a Dental cover plan from your insurer at a reasonable cost.
Where's your evidence that the NHS is going bankrupt? It's not been in the papers here. I call BS!

Kenzie| 11.8.09 @ 4:48PM

Hi, I'm Canadian. So nice to see my neighbours are in such a good mood today.

I personally think our health care is very good, and for things like ER visits, which you've probably heard the 11-hour-wait horror stories about, are extremely rare. The longest I've waited is 2 hours, and that's only because I was in to get my symptoms diagnosed (bronchitis), and there were more high-priority patients there.

And the last time I checked our health care system isn't going bankrupt. Do you have a link to an article or a study that shows our deficit? I was just wondering if you do since I haven't heard anything about it, and I think our newspapers would be freaking out if it was.
Thanks for your time.^^

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 5:13PM

According to a Financial Post article dating back to May of this year, this year si the first year our government had a deficit for the first time in 12 years. We had a deficit of 3 billion dollars. This is not due to rampant medical costs, but a drop in corporate tax revenue no doubt related to tax breaks handed out to try and fight off the recession that the North American economy is in thanks to our brothers and sisters down south.

So no, Tom, our healthcare system isn't running our country bankrupt. We've been having finaincial surplus for over a decade until this recession hit.

Wes| 11.8.09 @ 8:34PM

"firstrate countries like canada, UK and France"..................................LOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOOLOL

Who invented the ____, _____, ______, ______, _____, _________, ______.

Oh Yeah, it was USA. If you provide everything for a nation then they will never expect anything form themselves!!!!!

None| 11.8.09 @ 11:17PM

First rate countries that invented the:
Canada - Canadarm, the electron microscope, insulin, the zipper, basketball
UK - Disk brakes, penicillin, the periodic table, Viagra
France - Bicycle, Braille, hot air balloon, the parachute, SCUBA gear, stethoscope, Pasteurization

wes| 11.12.09 @ 11:32PM

My Bad..... What would I do without my zipper, viagra or hot air baloon????

Its no secret that the USA has invented most all of the major invntions that run the 21st century world (excluding germany... those guys are pretty smart). This happened because people are given a choice in the USA...... anybody can can be rich and prosperous OR anybody be a complete failure. I happen to be in the former.... I started a buisiness 7 years ago, in the first 2 years I almost went bankrupt countless times. Hundreds of 70-hour weeks later I consider myself a success (200k profit this year). I get angry when I have to give $70+k to the goverment so they can support the people that dont work at all.

jf| 11.8.09 @ 1:23PM

The problem with the current bill is that crazy little "everyone has to buy insurance" clause. We really need to see how the public option and the reforms pan out before we go and make it mandatory.

pb| 11.8.09 @ 3:08PM

Everyone pays in to MEDICARE. Everyone pays in to SOCIAL SECURITY. I bet you won't be bitchin' about that when you turn 65. And.... everyone has to buy car insurance, homeowners insurance, etc. Are you against that too?

Blacque Jacques Shellacque| 11.8.09 @ 11:57PM

Everyone pays in to SOCIAL SECURITY.

It's nothing more than a government-sanctioned Ponzi scheme.

And.... everyone has to buy car insurance, homeowners insurance, etc.

No they don't. Who says someone that doesn't own a car has to buy auto insurance? Who says that someone that doesn't own a home has to buy homeowner's insurance?

Keith Newton| 11.8.09 @ 1:29PM

What the hell? When did we say that you dipshits could talk. I said sit in the corner damit! You just keep your nose in there till I say you can play again with your insurance friends. Let us all put the " I' ve got mine" assholes out of office. I will donate and keep these carpetbaggers out of office even if I have to steal the money to do it. Donate now! Do it so you can get a hospital bed and not go bankrupt dying.

Brandon| 11.8.09 @ 1:29PM

It strikes me as odd that a group of people so devoted to the right of live cares so little about health care.

I'm proud to be part of a group where 39 people will stand up to their peers because they believe in something. And I don't even agree with them.

Margie| 11.8.09 @ 3:21PM

Hear! Hear!

Pew Pew Pew| 11.9.09 @ 11:49AM

No Margie... you don't seem to understand.

chris| 11.8.09 @ 1:41PM

Tom is a crack up. a Canadian JUST posted how much he loves it, but Tom is so hell-bent on reading his own glorious opinion he didnt stop and read 6 posts up. hey Tom, scroll up buddy...read before you flap your lips.

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 1:44PM

+1 Canadian who loves it right here.

chris| 11.8.09 @ 1:57PM

Uh-Oh, Tom.

Alexander_Q| 11.8.09 @ 2:02PM

Australian here - just wanted to send my congratulations to you all for joining the fray of socially responsible nations. Well done!

Matt| 11.8.09 @ 2:09PM

Wow, y'all are pretty uninformed.

You are already paying for the uninsured through higher hospital bills under the EMTALA act

http://www.emtala.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E....._Labor_Act

Uncollected costs end up in the form of higher bills for the rest of us to keep the hospital floating.

The other reason it's *so* expensive is the lack of malpractice reform in most places.

The third reason is the high cost of administrative fees in medicine (over 33%!).

The solution is to offer a universal option to everyone that we all pay into, that should fix #1 and bring down the cost of #3. Malpractice reform would fix #2 very well - and I don't think that anyone would disagree with that idea. We do have the money to do this (we spend considerably more per-person on healthcare), however if we keep both the private and public option running, I fear this style of health care will be overly expensive and only benefit those who don't pay for it (directly).

However, I think we're all afraid of the government's ability to run something like this (which I do agree with). If only our leaders could get their heads out of the ***** and do this right :)

Ken| 11.8.09 @ 3:18PM

What really scares me is, remember a few years back when the Government took over a leagal whorehouse and casino in Nevada for back taxes? They went bankrupt because they didn't know how to run a business!! How many politicians are true business people? How many have been a CEO, or owned and managed thier own business? Da-m few! And now they want to compete with one of the largest industries in the world, the Insurence companies!!

Matt| 11.8.09 @ 5:21PM

Here's a crazy idea, let's make a single-payer public option. Then staff it's "business" side with people who work in the insurance industry currently.

But that's just crazy talk, why would we want experienced people running a government program ^_^

(or even more so to the point, why would we pay to have competent government workers)

Wes| 11.11.09 @ 1:06AM

I think one thing everyone can agree on it that we was malpractice reform.... Well, everybody but the trial laywers that are part of the democratic party.

Simon| 11.8.09 @ 2:24PM

actually Tom, I'm British and while the NHS does have it's problems, I shudder to think what it would be like without it. I have no problems giving some of my wages for the greater good of people in the country. Sure there are waiting lists in some places, but none in others .. my Father just had problems with his heart, went in the next day and had an op the day after and think you will find many other stories like this,

wew| 11.8.09 @ 9:08PM

Well..... If your father was a working and contriuting citizen, he would go to his health insurance carrier and get the best treatment avalible.

This is what all of us hard working americans do. Thats why we are the richest/most-productive/most-powerful nation in the world and england is a washed-up has-been.

mike| 11.9.09 @ 12:18AM

your assuming his father doesn't, or didn't (retirement) work. Additionally, your assuming that his father isn't getting adequate care, or that with your available insurance, you would get any better care than he would. At the same time, every one in England is getting treated. Mean while, here in America, there are plenty of people who cant afford health care, even while working. You assume every one who cant afford health care in the U.S. is a dead beat. Your assumptions are the flaw in your arguments.

also note that the United Kingdom's life expectancy is ranked 25th, where as the U.S. is ranked 50th. At the same time, individuals pay less overall on health costs then we do here in the U.S.

But your right, our system is clearly superior.

wes| 11.11.09 @ 1:16AM

Heres the point, Give us back out tax money and let us make our own decision!!!

Mil| 11.8.09 @ 2:34PM

The Right Wing can all die in a fire.. half this country hates you and wants you to be killed.

The Other Half| 11.8.09 @ 7:28PM

And we think you're all a bunch of entitlement-hungry lazy asses who were given everything your entire lives and want to continue mooching off your parents and everyone else until your dead.

wes| 11.8.09 @ 9:10PM

"The Right Wing can all die in a fire.. half this country hates you and wants you to be killed."

Well then why dont you write that on your carboard signs instead of "Hungry.. lease help".

Pew Pew Pew| 11.9.09 @ 11:55AM

Hey, I can go to extremes too! All liberals are poor homeless beggers who mooch off the government and conservatives are all power hungry, bible thumping, ignorant fascists who are driven by greed and the misguided idea that they'll be guaranteed a spot in heaven as long as they fear their god.

See, this is fun!

Spicy Joker| 11.8.09 @ 3:29PM

The Lap Dog Democraps are still going to lose. They might think they can fool the voters into thinking they're "conservative Democrats," but the fact of the matter is that they voted for Nancy Pelousy for Speaker of the House.

Neil| 11.8.09 @ 3:31PM

Pretty sure you're not going to get taxed unless you're making over $500k a year as an individual or over $1 mil as a family.

And by pretty sure, I mean positive: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics.....amp;page=2

I'm from Canada and I wouldn't trade in my public care for anything.

mike| 11.9.09 @ 12:19AM

I use to make fun of Canada when I was younger, now I envy you for better quality of life you enjoy.

Dan| 11.8.09 @ 3:35PM

Tom, i'm british and proud of the NHS yes its not perfect but as simon said i couldnt imagine life without it.
If your ill you will get taken care of, no if's and "no your policy doesnt cover it " rubbish. I was also recently in the US and the amount of lie's about the NHS being shown on US TV was truly shocking!!!

Brad| 11.8.09 @ 3:43PM

Canadian here. Private healthcare is illegal here, you can't open up a private practice and charge people for it, you must go through the "system". Our hospitals are so clogged up its crazy. You know what me and my family do? We drive down into the USA for our healthcare and pay up. No way would I ever wait 7 months for an important test or scan of some kind.

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 4:26PM

I've had many relatives require surgeries and they've never had to wait. My mother recently had a perforated bowel and required surgery, she had it same day. She has had constant home care for the past two months and has been reevaluated by surgeons four times. What clogging? You know how much we've had to pay for this? $55, that's how much the ambulance cost and that's the only thing that isn't covered in the system for what we've required.

I've had two uncles that have had colon cancer and an aunt that had breast cancer, and they have all been treated very quickly.

My sister's husband's father required a heart bypass and was on the operating table in two days.

Our healthcare system is very good at dealing with important things, but maybe your definition of important is "I stubbed my toe". People who visit the ER for stupid reasons do have to wait, and rightly so. That's what the triage nurse is for. I once went to the ER and had to wait 10 hours to be treated, but that was mandated by the police that I go and my injury wasn't serious (dog bite). Did I like waiting that long? No. Was my injury more serious than the guy with head trauma that was getting looked at before me? No.

I've never seen our healthcare system fail me or any of my relatives.

Nick| 11.8.09 @ 8:11PM

I see a bunch of Soros trolls claiming to be Canadian and British have showed up today. Losers.

Buh-bye Obamacare, buh-bye!

Nah-nah-nah-nah!
Nah-nah-nah-nah!
Hey-hey-hey!
Good-bye!

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 8:27PM

If you're making reference to me, I found this post because it made the Digg front page. I am a Canadian.

Nick| 11.9.09 @ 12:20AM

Justin the Canuck,

Well, I'm half Canadian. And I'm from Detroit.

Why are so many Canandians coming to Detroit to get medical services? Especially cancer treatment?

Justin| 11.9.09 @ 12:38AM

"So many" is a pretty neat stat. What percentage of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United States?

Nick| 11.9.09 @ 1:19AM

Here's the link to an article which describes the "thousands" of Canucks who cross the border:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a...../577130486

Here are some key graphs:

"Over the past two years, Henry Ford has seen a 59 percent increase in inpatient admissions and a 60 percent increase in outpatient visits and procedures from Canadians, Acker said.

"While the 2007 numbers are incomplete, OHIP estimates 262 Canadians received gastric bypass surgery in Detroit hospitals in 2007 compared with 192 in 2006. Those totals exceed the numbers of Canadians receiving gastric bypasses in Ontario during that period by about 20 percent, OHIP said.

"Canadians also come across the border to use Henry Ford for general surgery, general medicine, orthopedics and neurosciences, she said.

"Henry Ford has seen a 20 percent increase in heart patients from Canada since last fall, said CEO Tony Armada.

“'If you are a patient and go into an ER (in Windsor) and physicians deem you need (angioplasty or bypass surgery) right away, they call us and we immediately start to get the ball rolling,' Armada said. The trip from Hotel Dieu to Henry Ford takes less than 10 minutes.

"Since 2004, more than 200 neurosurgery patients and 400 emergency cardiac patients from Ontario have received care in the U.S. It is unclear how many of those received care at Detroit hospitals.

“'We see other types of patients relative to the shortages they have in Windsor,' Armada added.

"For example, Edwards said DMC is seeing an increase in children seeking medical care and for diagnostic tests like CT scans.

“'When Canada didn't have enough neurosurgeons, we saw an increase in those patients,' she said.

"In 2007, DMC treated about 260 Canadian patients, with an equal mix of inpatients and outpatients, Edwards said.

"Most patients pay out of pocket if they want a second opinion from DMC doctors, Edwards said. About half of DMC's reimbursements come from self-pay, she said.

"Schumacher said access to second opinions is very important to Canadians. 'The wait here is six to eight months to see an orthopedic surgeon, three to four months for a general surgeon and six months to see a gastroenterologist for a colonoscopy.'

"For about $250, Canadians can get a second opinion, Schumacher said.

"In Canada, health care is paid for by the government through provincially funded health care systems. Ontario's OHIP pays for emergency treatment outside of Canada, but nonemergency care out of the country must be paid out-of-pocket."

Ontario and Canadian taxpayers are paying for U.S. emergency medical services. Your hard earned tax dollars are going to rich American doctors.

How does that make you feel, Justin?

Justin| 11.9.09 @ 6:06PM

So DMC treated 260 patients in 2007.

260 out of 32.9 million people.

It makes me feel like 0.0008% of Canadians are seeking healthcare elsewhere.

Also, that article states that Canadian healthcare services are referring patients to select American hospitals, and those patients are not paying out of pocket when it's an emergency procedure. There is an astronomical difference between willingly seeking an alternative and being referred to one by your own medical service.

But the moral of this story is that your "so many" claim turns out to be "so few."

Nick| 11.9.09 @ 8:07PM

Justin,

Typical bleeding heart liberal, lying by mis-using numbers.

Again, the article states "thousands" are crossing the border. From a city of 300,000+ people. This IS "so many Canadians", to reasonable people.

If you don't think 60% increases are significant, you're ignorant.

There IS NOT an "astronomical" difference, brainiac, when the reason is the same: Medical services are rationed in your country.

You didn't answer my question. How does it feel to have YOUR tax dollars going into the pockets of rich American doctors and hospital board members?

Lancer| 11.9.09 @ 10:17PM

Hey Nick,

Justin has a point. It's easy to see a 50% when the "sample" size is so small--in the low hundreds *per hospital mentioned*. I think the reporter is being a little senesationalistic about "thousands". I assume Detroit has maybe five large hospitals which brings the number up to a thousand of Canadians.

It's still an interesting trend. Maybe the phenomena is local to Windsor in that the hospitals are understaffed. The article does mention wait times of 2-6 months to get a second opinion from some Canadian specialists. This can happen in the US too. I've had to wait two months for a specialist, which usually motivates me to find a different doctor because I'm not a patient man. :-)

The article states that some of the Detroit hospitals are actively allying themselves with the Windsor hospitals. I think it's great that they are helping each other out. Detroit's economy is a disaster and they need all the help they can get. The Canadians benefit in having more options.

Everyone is happy.

Nick, I don't know why you get so upset and start with the labels: "bleeding heart" etc.

Just discuss the facts and stop trying to start fights. I thought the article you referenced was interesting in that it was the first contemporary article I've see that showed any dissatisfaction with Canadian health care. Americans "talk" about how all the Canadians are unhappy, but I haven't gotten any validation from any of my Canadian friends that this was the case.

If I was Justin, my response to your un-answered question is: it feels great! The Canadians get more health care from the US AND they get universal health care from Canada. As far as tax dollars go, Canada has a lot of them.
I can't speak about all the provinces, but British Columbia isn't operating under deficit spending like the "rich" USofA. It's common for them to have tax surpluses every year.

When was the last time the US had a federal tax surplus?

Don't feel bad. The US is a great country. They just have a lot of problems to fix.

Nick| 11.9.09 @ 11:04PM

Lancer,

I don't know how you ascertained that I was "upset", which I'm not. But, that's not the only thing about which you are wrong.

Like relying on anecdotal "evidence" from your friends instead of actual evidence. Or assuming how many large hospitals Detroit has. Or speculating that this is limited to Windsor. Canadians are also going to Buffalo.

I always discuss facts. Why do you pinkos always want to tell people what to do? You guys really are control freaks, aren't you?

I know American libs don't mind throwing away U.S. taxpayer dollars. But I'll bet Canadians have a big problem sending their medical tax dollars to the ultra-rich United States.

And the problem we have to fix most, is excising liberalism from our society. Or more accurately, exorcise it from society.

Justin| 11.11.09 @ 1:08PM

Canada has a federal surplus, while the ultra-rich United States seems to run a deficit running over a trillion dollars per year. I don't really think a nation can be considered ultra-rich when they are losing more money year than actually exists in their country.

Do I care where the tax dollars go? No. Our healthcare system is about ensuring everyone gets medical treatment, not deciding which pockets the money ends up in. That, I think, is a fundamental difference between Canadian and American culture.

Nick| 11.11.09 @ 8:49PM

Justin,

Nice try at obfuscation. I'm glad you concede that there are "so many" Canadians crossing the border for medical service. Why was that so hard? You bleeding heart libs just can't admit it when you're wrong, huh?

Liberals are the same around the world, I guess. I'm sure "real" Canadians MIND very much their tax dollars making the payments on an American doctor's Jaguar.

Justin| 11.11.09 @ 11:57PM

I did not concede that there are "so many" Canadian crossing the border, I'm simply not going to get into a shouting match of "are too!" "are not!" "are too!" "are not!" with you because you're always just going to re-state what has already been refuted and claim it as a win. A very American way of debating :)

It might surprise you, but Canadian are far less materialistic than Americans and care more about quality of life than having a bank account with large numbers in it. I can assure you that the last thought on a Canadian's mind is that they are upset about a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of their health care dollars going to an American's pocket in exchange for a better quality of life for them and their peers.

But you're never going to back down, because you're convinced that Canadians are upset with our system and that we're all envious of America's wealth. There is nothing that I can say that will change your mind. You really have no idea what Canada or what Canadian culture is like and are perfectly content with manifacturing facts to suit your materialistic world view.

Nick| 11.12.09 @ 1:14AM

Justin,

Did you forget the part about me being half Canadian and from Detroit, eh? You can't fool me about you Canadians, I'm one of you.

When you speak in such gross generalizations like "Canadians are [...]", you look very foolish. Like you speak for all Canadians? Or Canadian people are different than the rest of the planet?

Do you really believe your own tripe?

Justin| 11.12.09 @ 1:45PM

So how foolish do you look when you say 'I'm sure "real" Canadians MIND very much...', as if you are who determines what a real Canadian is? Why is it that I so often hear Americans saying "So and so is not a REAL American!" It's refreshing to see that your authority over reality extends beyond your own country's borders.

And it may come as a surprise to you, but every country has its own unique culture and people are very different all over the planet. America is classified as a cultural melting pot though (as opposed to Canada's cultural mosaic), so I can see how you might believe that every culture in the world is (or should be) the same as America's.

You'll find that if you read anything about Canada's culture that the generalizations I have presented are well documented and shared by many independent organizations, so very little of this tripe is of my own creation.

Nick| 11.12.09 @ 2:10PM

Justin,

So glad to see you admit you are just regurgitating the liberal tripe you were spoon-fed.

Yes, culture differs around the world, human nature does not. This is the problem with you bleeding hearts, you refuse to acknowledge that human nature is flawed, but the same no matter what part of the world you're standing in or the historic era.

It is human nature to want to keep private property and not see it wasted by others. Even for Canadians.

You are a human nature denier.

Justin| 11.12.09 @ 3:14PM

You are simply flat out incorrect to say that culture doesn't change anything. It's as simple as that. Go read a book.

Nick| 11.12.09 @ 3:30PM

Justin,

That isn't what I wrote. Try learning the Queen's English and re-read.

Culture doesn't CHANGE human nature, it limits what is permissible. Liberty is not synonymous with licentiousness.

You live in a cocoon. Break free Grasshopper.

Justin| 11.12.09 @ 3:33PM

So your argument is thus: Humans should be outraged if the money they pay for a better quality of life goes to someone not from the same country as them. This is human nature and nothing can ever change that.

Nick| 11.12.09 @ 5:13PM

No Grasshopper, my argument was: If Canadian single-payer medicine is so great, why do SO MANY Canadians have to cross the border to get treatment? Or even a second opinion?

Justin| 11.12.09 @ 6:02PM

Capitalizing words doesn't make them true. The statistic you provided said 260 Canadians recieved care at DMC in 2007. That is a pitifully low number.

But at this point it's clear that you're not going to be swayed from your delusions and misconceptions, and the only people that are ever going to find any value out of this conversation aren't involved in it. I'm not going to waste any more time talking someone who constantly lies in order to try and convince someone that they should really be upset with something they're very happy with.

Nothing you can say can change the fact that, when Canadians were asked to pick the greatest Canadian to ever live, Tommy Douglas ranked #1. What did Mr. Douglas do? He gave us our health care system. Thanks for playing.

Nick| 11.12.09 @ 6:40PM

Even your defender, Lancer, admitted there were at least a "thousand" according to the article. Can't you add?

He who leaves the battlefield first, loses.

Erik| 11.8.09 @ 8:20PM

Reminder - they were elected to represent their constituents. Even though some Congressman voted no, I know some of them wanted to...

dum&dummer;| 11.8.09 @ 9:21PM

maybe all you folks from gb and canada don't have a bunch of marxist and avowed commies running your govt.'s like we do. scares hell outta me.

Justin| 11.8.09 @ 10:40PM

You think you have a communist government? I know that's what Fox News has been spouting, but people are actually stupid enough to believe that in America? Wow.

Blacque Jacques Shellacque| 11.9.09 @ 12:07AM

I know that's what Fox News has been spouting,...

It appears one of the Soros trolls has been found. Fox News gets 'em every time.

Justin| 11.11.09 @ 6:11PM

Fox News! http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200911100063

Lying to the masses since 1996.

MarkJ| 11.8.09 @ 9:25PM

The arguments (such as they are) in favor of PelosiCare are charming. However, they're irrelevant because the House bill, as it stands, is already D.O.A. in the Senate. Don't believe me, trolls? Hell, even the Associated Press understands that by now:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Furthermore, ruminate on this: odds are good that the Senate is going to take its sweet-ass time with its bill and, at the rate things are going, it may not even vote on Obama/Pelosi/ReidCare until well into next year, which gives our side even more time to publicize just what an abortion it is.

Here's another fun fact to think about: 5 of the 7 oldest Senators happen to be Democrats. Robert "KKK" Byrd is 92 and even Arlen S.P.E.C.T.R.E. is a "youthful" 79. These guys could croak at almost any time. Two of the states represented by these fossils have just flipped to GOP gubernatorial candidates, which means if guys like Frank Lautenberg (who turns 86 in January) buy the farm, ya'll may be looking at not one, but even a two or three Senate seat pickup by the GOP in the near future through governor's appointments or special elections.

Here's the bottom line: I perfectly understand why Obama is in such a hurry. Lord Zero knows his biggest political opponent is not the GOP; it's the Grim Reaper.

Betcha didn't think of that, did ya?

Tony Amaro| 11.8.09 @ 9:51PM

Shame on these democrats; they felt prey of ignorant right-wing retrogrades.
Reform to have health for all is not to be socialist, but civilized.

I| 11.8.09 @ 11:35PM

I try to think of myself as more of a moderate, but even I still think the public option is a dumb idea. It's not a bad idea because it's "socialism" (well, maybe so. Anyway.) It's a bad idea because even if was just a government-run company, the Treasury dept. has already said it would likely cost more than private insurance. So if the bill already eliminates "pre-existing conditions" what's the difference between the public option and private insurance? How is that going to help the uninsured?

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2.....1891.shtml

I| 11.8.09 @ 11:36PM

My mistake, it was the Congressional Budget Office that said that, not the Treasury Department.

Right Wing Nut Job| 11.8.09 @ 11:50PM

It's too bad no one but the dems on capitol hill knows what's in the bill. Nancy Pelosi, herself, promised to let the public read it for 72 hours before a vote. It seems that there must be a lot to hide in this bill that no one really seems to want. If you want to know why Americans don't want the government involved in health care, look at Amtrak...The government set up this company and it has never made a profit during any quarter of its existance. Instead, tax payers across the country pay for it while it only services less than 1% of the country. Look at Medicare...how many times do you see news stories about fraud??? The government can't even find fraudulent transactions until they cost us Millions of dollars...what makes you think the public option will be any better? You can't spend a trillion dollars and expect no tax increase. We will all be paying for this no matter how much or how little you make.

Indiana Jones| 11.9.09 @ 12:12AM

This country definitely needs health care reform, however, this whole thing has been done the wrong way. The keyword is REFORM, not upheaval, especially during this time, where the economy is tanking--by the way, let me know when that stimulus bill starts stimulating. There are so many ways that health care can be ameliorated without disturbing some many people on both sides. Don't you people remember Henry Clay--the great compromiser. There is a way that all American citizens can benefit, it's called compromise and yes it would take your representatives getting off their high pedestals; and that goes for both sides. A Bill which actually reflects the input of both sides would no doubt represent a more sound solution.

With that said this whole process is being rushed, there is no give and take. Take for instance the fact that Nancy Pelosi promised that the proposed bill would be made publicly available for perusal no less than 72 hours prior to a vote. That turned out to be untrue. Makes you wonder what else about this bill will turn out to be untrue, doesn't it? Clearly this bill will be defeated in the Senate, at least by all indications, and Saturday's vote will turn out to be more just a symbolic gesture, but where is the transparency? I wouldn't support a bill to cure AIDS if I couldn't read it beforehand. The fact is you never know what means or methods a bill will use to execute it's goal. For instance, killing all those infected with AIDS or HIV would effectively cure AIDS, but I don't think anyone would say that's alright; I realize that's a rather severe example, but you get my point. Of all people I would least expect you left wing "hippies" to believe everything your "representatives" tell you.

I personally don't believe in a public option, or so-called universal/national health care. I think every one should have the ability to have health insurance, but don't believe in the government's ability to run anything--here's to $10,000 door stoppers. Instead, I would support some system to lower insurance company prices, through government regulations or the like if need be. I would prefer the government to keep their noses out of this industry, but the fact is health insurance reflects man's natural rights, i.e. the Right to Life. That is, everyone should have the opportunity to health care, but also, just as importantly, this should not interfere with the Right to Liberty and the pursuit of happiness equally entitled to everyone else. Interpret that as you may.

By the way, I'm personally a moderate conservative bordering on libertarian.

Alewis| 11.9.09 @ 1:45AM

Of the 39 DEMS who chose to vote NO, I am curious to hear what their reason was for not voting. Since i live in Georgia I am going to send a letter to the two GA REPS who chose to vote no.
People are hurting financially and for those who have all the money to do whatever, there will come a day in which a bill such as the Health Care Reform will no doubt benefit them. I am happy that it passed regardless of the margin. Having to deal with Furlough once a month, and an expected increase in benefits come January 2010, no salary increase, I am happy that we have a President who is thinking of the people, the regular people. Insurance is important and without it, you cannot get care, and living in America a country that boast about a land of plenty, one has to wonder how many of our congressman and senators, have been hiding their heads in the sand? Someone should really start looking at the Dentistry Industry, that is certainly the one Medical profession that really manipulates the insurance industry. They have us between a rock and a hard place. All of us may never get sick, but all of us do visit a dentist and from the simple things to the extreme it si very very expensive and most insurance so not cover much of the cost therefore you either have to pay out of pocket (if you have it) of you go without care which will ultimately lead to serious health problems, diabetes, heart Disease, etc., so something must be done in this industry to make it more affordable for all.

Danny| 11.9.09 @ 11:28AM

Most of them, I believe, voted against it because it's not the healthcare bill they were hoping for. Instead they got a massive tax-payer giveaway to the insurance companies.

Nick B| 11.9.09 @ 11:30AM

22. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (OH)
I recommend you spend a while thinking what that means.

Aaron| 11.9.09 @ 11:51AM

I am proud that my congressman is on that list.

Julie B.| 11.9.09 @ 4:01PM

God will favor these brave souls when we return to Him. Medicine is a tool of the devil and prolongs our return to Chirst. The more time we spend on earth the more time the devil has to corrupt us and turn us away from His light.

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commenterpaul| 11.10.09 @ 7:26PM

i thought the point of having so many people was so that everyone was able to voice their "own" opinion and decision, one shouldn't have to vote a certain way because they are in a certain party