The American Spectator : The Spectacle Blog : Finally: An Official Estimate of the 9/12 March on D.C. Crowd

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Finally: An Official Estimate of the 9/12 March on D.C. Crowd

By Robert Stacy McCain on 9.14.09 @ 6:24PM

The controversy over crowd-size estimates for Washington political rallies dates back to Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in 1995. The attendance at the Farrakhan event was clearly less than advertised. However, when the National Park Service accurately reported that it was in fact a Several Hundred Thousand Man March, this led to accusations of racism which effectively put an end to official NPS estimates. The subsequent 1997 Promise Keepers rally -- which was indisputably larger than the Farrakhan event -- thus was not officially estimated because, as a CNN writer delicately put it, the NPS had been "stung by past disputes."

Given that I was one of the first to provide a definite crowd-size number for Saturday's 9/12 March On D.C. -- a "people meter" count of 450,000 for the morning march along Pennsylvania Avenue -- I have been both amused and annoyed by subsequent rangling over estimates of the total crowd for the event organized by FreedomWorks and co-sponsored by several other free-market groups.

Even David Weigel of the Washington Independent (no fan of Republicans) writes that Saturday's rally "was the largest march on Washington by conservatives in anyone's memory" -- although I don't think even the sponsors would claim it was as large as the Promise Keepers event.

At any rate, many liberal bloggers have attacked Michelle Malkin and others for giving credence to high-end estimates of Saturday's crowd as high as 2 million. It is difficult to judge such things from TV coverage or photographs, and if the 2 million number was high -- well, whose fault is it that the NPS no longer provides official estimates any more?

If the count of marchers on Pennsylvania Avenue (450,000) is accepted as the rock-bottom estimate, and late arrrivals significantly swelled the crowd above that, then a total attendance above 1 million is certainly possible. Two million is almost certainly too high.

Having covered the rally in person, and having seen the view of the crowd from backstage at the top of Capitol Hill, I can now state that The Official Stacy McCain Estimate of the crowd is: "Freaking huge."

That's official. No arguing allowed.

View all comments (69) | Leave a comment

Nick| 9.14.09 @ 6:32PM

Too late, Mr. McCain.

As reported yesterday, the NNS (that's the Nick News Service) stated that "[...] A CRAPLOAD OF PEOPLE SHOWED UP!"

You have been scooped, sir.

Robert Stacy McCain| 9.14.09 @ 6:37PM

Sorry, Nick, but according to the Official Stacy McCain Crowd Estimating Handbook, "freaking huge" is larger than a "crapload."

Like I said, no arguing allowed.

Daisy| 9.14.09 @ 6:41PM

Tell that to Liberal Reader.

Eric Dondero| 9.14.09 @ 6:45PM

Dave Weigel "no fan of Republicans..."

That's the understatement of the year.

He's perhaps the most viciously biased anti-Republican today in the mainstream media. To the Left of Oberman.

If' its got an 'R' by its name, Weigel will no doubt find a way to bash it, and smash it, and call it every name in the book.

Angel| 9.14.09 @ 6:51PM

A million? That's a lot of people, and that's not counting the (tens of) thousands who attended local 9/12 rallies.

I wonder if the 9/12 turnout has democrats scared.

Ken (old Texican)| 9.14.09 @ 6:58PM

WOW! and you know, most of those people had bathed in the last day or so. heh.

At our te parties in Texas, the police told us that we were the best smelling protest they had ever witnessed.

Seriously though, these people paid their own way to be ignored by the mainstream media. Their votes will not be ignored though, if we keep after ACORN.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 7:36PM

For people interested in facts:

No news agency, not Fox, not the Journal, not the Washington Times, has confirmed a number over 75,000 -- which is what the DC fire department estimated.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 7:51PM

The real story this weekend was my man Kayne West putting taylor swift in her place at the VMA awards. Kayne is my main n---ger. Go baby.

alma | 9.28.09 @ 2:02PM

what a idiot, he should be shunned instead of praised.oh well thats hollywood idiots for you.he should have been at a tea party and let the mob take care of him

Dixie Pixie| 9.14.09 @ 7:52PM

Well it is “Official”. According to Charles Gibson of ABC, a tantrum by one black female tennis star is more note worthy than a one million ++ person march on Washington DC by angry conservatives.
According to Charles Gibson there is a rising tide of “Uncivility” that is a serious problem in the nation. Naturally Congressman Joe Wilson is part of this newly discovered national problem. In the MSM view legitimate grievances of conservatives are not a problem but unruly behavior is. Unbelievable, I wonder how far out of whack the MSM can get.

Red Phillips| 9.14.09 @ 8:12PM

Dixie, according to the MSM, "uncivility" means disagreeing with liberals.

Dondero, are you capable of making a comment that isn't monumentally wrong? By any standard modern understanding of left and right (which differs substantially from the historical understanding of left and right but that is for another day) Dave Weigel is not to the left of Olbermann. Olberman is a rather standard issue liberal. Weigel is a Beltway Cosmotarian. Weigle does not support socialized medicine for example. He just wants to make abundantly clear to his liberal Beltway buddies that he isn't "one of those types" of conservatives/Republicans. That's why he spends so much time thumbing his nose at Republicans and us yahoos in flyover country.

I Have Seen The Light!| 9.14.09 @ 8:52PM

I have seen the light!

Liberal Reader has convinced me!

There was NO MARCH in DC this weekend! It was all faked by the Bush-owned Fox News, just like Fox News faked the moon landing!

Uh-oh, I'd better run away, the black helicopters have given up on Ross Perot and are coming for me!

StlDan| 9.14.09 @ 9:33PM

Let the libs count Teaparty Attendees, we will cote votes.

Ivan Biggin| 9.14.09 @ 9:37PM

Yeh, sure! 450K, and with the late comers, that likely boiled over to 1 million or more.. (But 2 million is too high!) ;->

When pigs fly... To the moon.

When is an ADULT going to step up and salvage the shards of the Republican Party? It is time.

Nick| 9.14.09 @ 9:57PM

Mr. McCain,

The NNS stands corrected.

After hours of researching (i.e. googling) both terms and their etymologies, I found an obscure English court ruling from 1657 in the town of Hamstershire.

A farmer received a "crapload" of manure, but he was expecting a "freaking huge" amount of manure. The judge agreed, and he was awarded freaking huge load of liberals.

Alice Wright| 9.14.09 @ 10:03PM

The politicians ignore us to their peril!

I was in the march and at the rally on 9/12 (with two of my kids, from Atlanta, drove up after school on Friday - - paid our own way).

I won't say there were 1 million people - - my personal estimate has been somewhere near this author's. HOWEVER, even if we were 'only' 450,000, that is a SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE of the shrinking tax-paying constituency. We are fed up!

Spicy Joker| 9.14.09 @ 10:05PM

The L.A. Slimes says the crowd was only in the "tens of thousands."

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 10:13PM

Obviously @7:51 some racist scumbag ripped off my handle.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 10:15PM

Nick --

I knew it. You're all right, man. Another post that is genuinely witty.

You sure you're not a liberal? I don't think many folks around here appreciate irony.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 10:19PM

SPICY -- you fool:

EVERY NEWS ORGANIZATION, whether considered "conservative" or "liberal," is reporting "tens of thousands."

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS.

The WASHINGTON TIMES, one of the most respected conservative newspaper in the country, which is fucking BASED in DC, is reporting "tens of thousands."

You are believing websites that have no standards of accuracy whatsoever over what journalists, even "conservative" journalists are reporting.

This website and its fellows -- the whole Glenn Beck / Sarah Palin movement -- is NIHILISTIC; it's white nationalist populist racism; it is irrationalism!

You have NO REGARD for facts that trouble the conclusions you have decided to accept.

It's anti-intellectual and uncivilized.

You need to get a grip, brother. Save yourself from the miasma of fascism into which you are sliding.

SoCon| 9.14.09 @ 10:45PM

At least we don't promote sexual slavery, moron.

Nick| 9.14.09 @ 10:47PM

Marxist Reader,

I was more liberal when I was in my early twenties and was a spoiled brat. I was always pro 2nd amendment and Pro-Life, though. If you call me liberal today, those are fightin' words!

So, if I understand this right, the Washington "Times" is "[...]one of the most respected conservative newspaper[s] (sic) in the country[...]" when it publishes something you agree with?

But when the "Times" writes something unfavorable to the left, it's the newspaper owned by the wacko Rev. Sun Myung Moon and not to believed, right?

And for the umpteenth time, fascism is a left-wing ideology.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 11:03PM

Nick --

No, the Times is NOT just some whacko outfit.

I read the Washington Times, and the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist, and the Weekly Standard, and the National Review. These are all great publications, if you ask me.

My point is that no actual, credentialed journalists, not at Fox or anywhere else, are contesting the "tens of thousands" estimate.

I think this is very important because it illustrates a tendency that in "conservative" populism that simply resents and rejects any cultural institutions whatsoever, even if they are programmatically conservative!

Just so we're clear: I am pro-life; I am not hostile to 2nd amendment rights, although I think it is wise not to incorporate the "individual right," since it allows states and municipalities to design some limitations peculiar to local considerations: in other words, Wyoming and South Boston don't necessarily need the same gun laws to honor the 2nd amendment.

I believe the Church's stance on the dignity of human life is a powerful and positive teaching on the meaning of life. I know that sounds a little zany, but when I was taught it, as I was converting, I found what I can only call spiritual awakening.

But the dignity of life is much more than a "thou shalt not." It calls us to build a more just society; it calls us to build great institutions of education; it calls us to build a society in which all people have the opportunity to flourish. I think this certainly means free education, and I think this certainly means free medical care. Credo.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 11:29PM

Follow link to truly leftist liberal academic article on the 9.12 tea party in DC. I enjoyed it.

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 11:30PM

Link to truly leftist academic article.

Nick| 9.14.09 @ 11:45PM

Marxist Reader,

You seem to have missed my two points.

My comments, and I agree with you, they are very humorous, were meant to show that the argument over just how big the crowds really were is silly.

The parks department doesn't make estimates anymore, but when they did, it was with ariel photographs. So anyones estimate is as valid as anybody else's. Which is to say, not very.

My point about the Washington "Times" is that whenever it published something bad about "bubba the pervert", or any other liberal, it was called "Rev. Moon's paper" by lefties. Now I see a lefty treating it as gospel. Funny, huh?

Hey, why did you quit our argument on the "Bad Time to be a Liberal" thread? Do you concede my critiques?

Liberal Reader| 9.14.09 @ 11:52PM

Nick --

As I've said, there just is NO difficulty distinguishing between a crowed of 70 or 80 thousand and a crowd of 1 or 2 MILLION.

It is difficult to judge crowd sizes. But it's difficult to tell the difference between 60 and 80 thousand; not 80 thousand and a million.

I turned to the Times -- a conservative paper -- to point out that not even they were reporting figures over 100,000. ALL estimates are in the "tens of thousands," and if you don't believe the Associated Press, which I assume you consider to be a liberal conspiracy of some kind, perhaps you can accept the reporting of the Journal, the Washington Times, or Fox.

And no, I conceded nothing. I'll never tire, never flag nor fail.

Nick| 9.15.09 @ 12:15AM

Marxist Reader,

I understand your point. And it is a very good tactic. I use it all the time. It's still silly to argue about something no one can prove. Which is why I won't.

You should try teaching this tactic to Toddard. He likes to use LIBERAL sources to prove his "conservative" anti-war arguments and his attacks on conservatives. Not a very effective way to make a point.

And if you don't concede, try refuting. Don't quit. Or did we have this discussion in the past?

Missy| 9.15.09 @ 12:45AM

Yes, Nick, you and Marxist Reader/Jeremiah had this discussion before. As I recall it ended the same way: MR/J ran off whimpering into the night.

Jeremiah is a wiener.

waynev| 9.15.09 @ 1:03AM

Any crowd that's freaking hugh is certainly two million souls and counting.

robhon| 9.15.09 @ 5:57AM

Don't worry people. There's a better way to count the numbers. It comes the first Tuesday in November 2010. That is when we will get a better read on what "the numbers" really are.

Tommix| 9.15.09 @ 6:56AM

Did anyone check the DC Metro ticket sales on 9/12? The trains were so crowded people couldn't get on from the inner stations. I would guess there were more extra tickets sold for the Metro on 9/12 than for the Promise Keepers. There were probably more than 70,000 extra Metro tickets sold on 9/12. Then there's the 4,000+ buses that descended on DC for 9/12.

Ivan Biggin| 9.15.09 @ 9:44AM

All the complaints about lack of coverage from the "MSM" - yet much much larger DC rallies for anti-Iraq War protests and pro-choice rallies were virtually ignored in the past.

Actually, with the virtual vacuum of serious GOP leadership, this event got more coverage than might be warranted.

I notice that Glenn Beck, claimed instigator/owner of the 9/12 rally, didn't even show up to speak.. Why? (He did manage to feign a choked up response on his TV program.)

As an outside observer, I'm trying to understand why this rally was ever linked with the 9/11 tragedy. What's the relevance? Was anyone complaining about 9/11? Why is such an important solemn tragic event as 9/11 being exploited for political reasons? Where is the respect for the 9/11 victums? What's the problem here?

Can we expect to see other Tea Bagger oriented rallies in the future? If so, how are dates chosen for them?

Deborah| 9.15.09 @ 10:13AM

I don't know if you noticed but Obummer turned 9/11 into a day of service to the Messiah.
How is this showing respect to the victims of 9/11.
I think Americans showing up in DC shows respect for their country and their countrymen and countrywomen.

Bob| 9.15.09 @ 11:55AM

It was connected to 9/11 not in reverence to the victims so much as it was the day after when we were all one. For the first time in a long time our entire country was united under one cause, whether Democrat or Republican, on that day we were all just Americans. Though there were tens of thousands or even millions each individual had their own reasons for being there and the majority were tired of the lack of representation we as the American people are feeling. This administration and all its counterparts, regardless of party affiliations, is ignoring us as a whole.... and if you are unable or unwilling to see that. You my friend are the ignorant one.

Copernica| 9.18.09 @ 10:17PM

Bob - I just want to say that I agree with you - it's individuals that are attending the Tea Parties and this event. Party affiliations are there - but most people are fed up with the entire system and are blaming both sides of the aisle.

As far as media coverage - I'm seeing a lot of people pointing fingers at the liberal media and others at the conservative media for not giving this the coverage. (BTW - MSNBC also had live coverage of this event. It wasn't just Fox. Neither had great coverage - only mediocre at best.) Has it not occurred to anyone that both sides are scared of us and that's why there's a virtual media blackout? When it is covered they try to create disdain by implying that these groups are nothing but lunatics.

Since when is believing in The Constitution the definition of a lunatic? How did US Citizens, who want to take back control of their country and hold our representatives accountable to us - their employers, in the way it was laid out by our founding fathers become Unpatriotic?

Why are so many still playing the Liberal vs. Conservative game? The same game that got us in this mess!

This is no longer a fight between right and left - it's a fight to get our country back from the greedy deceivers who've taken it away from us piece by piece over the last century (give or take a few years).

Just over the last 30 years we've been forced into a society where mom's (or dad's) can't afford to stay at home with their children. Home's that are lucky to still have 2 parents - have 2 working parents. Kids are piled high with homework. Everyone is so tired at the end of the day - that they don't have the energy to read what's going on in the world...much less their own part of it (especially when accurate info is nearly impossible to find and multiple sources have to be read to even get a decent idea that something is happening). It's no wonder that our free time is consumed with mindless tv watching and internet surfing and video games. We're too tired to do anything else.

The plan is finally starting to backfire - people are tired of being tired....they're tired of working constantly and only being able to make ends meet. They remember when they had extra money and only worked 1/2 as hard. And now...they are getting angry. They can't afford to let government get any bigger. To use the old quote - They're mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore!

These protests need to continue - keep away from the party bickering & bashing and they will grow beyond what any one could hope for. We will win this - we will get our government back from the theifs. Politicians will know that they work for us - not for the lobbyists and not for big business. Big Business will be firmly reminded that the customer is ALWAYS right - and that's customer....not shareholder.

We CAN do this! We ARE "We, The People"....and when we stand united in one cause - we WILL win!

hmm....ok - I may have gotten a little excited there - but from the bottom of my heart....I know we can do this - together!

Liberal Reader| 9.15.09 @ 12:04PM

The master fears the slave.

The master is certain that if the slave is freed, he will return to exact revenge for her servitude.

The master fears the revenge of the slave more than he fears losing the slave's service.

The master is convinced that the slave's desire for revenge is just. The master, being free, values freedom and cannot imagine a higher good. Because he denies the slave freedom, the highest good, he believes that the slave's vengeance will be more terrible than he can imagine.

The fruit of slavery is fear; racism is the reverberation of that fear through history.

Obama represents a double threat in the south: the fear of the slave suddenly becoming powerful and exacting vengeance, and a fear of the federal government.

Disgusted| 9.15.09 @ 1:08PM

Liberal Reader - you are a fool. I am new to this post, and have read your comments through this thread, and it is clear to me that you enjoy instigating hatred and anger. Your last post is just more of the mindless drivel copied from racist bigots around the country. You may think it was a clever play on the past 'sins' of America and the current administration.
I often wonder why it is that liberals like you continue to return to the skin color, slavery, racial commentary when conservatives have echoed loud and clear that this is not about race. Do you think that throwing a rope around the race issue and dragging it into the conversation will lend credibility to your arguments?
Our President never was a slave, but rather enjoyed some of the choicest fruits of our society. Yet he can relate to the 'common man'? Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and then you will know him. So quit comparison shopping for sympathy and companionship for your misguided ideals. If we are to be a post-racial society, cut the rope my friend.

Liberal Reader| 9.15.09 @ 2:08PM

Disgusted --

Why would you imagine that because reactionaries say, "We're not racist," that in fact they are not racist?

Are all criticisms of Obama racist?

Of course not.

But Obama has become a screen upon which a populist, reactionary right has projected every single phantom bogey of the American psyche:

We've listened as he was called a "communist," "socialist," "fascist," "Nazi," "traitor," "racist," "illegal alien," "Muslim," and terrorist sympathizer.

What villain or monster of American popular historical imagination has been left out? You've only failed to accuse him of child molestation or cannibalism, but I can only assume such accusations are to come.

What explains these wild and irrational projections but fear of the OTHER -- the most powerful instance of which in American history is the black man.

Ivan Biggin| 9.15.09 @ 2:32PM

I know how Tea Baggers all view themselves as true patriots and keepers of some great American credo.

The sad truth is that much of America and most of the rest of the planet see them as they are: useful idiots for the GOP. They serve as convenient stooges for large corporate fiscal interests. And this cause, further enrichment of the rich, is the prime directive of the modern Republican Party.

Any group making the likes of Glenn Beck their hero and mentor are definitely complete fools.

Just look at the losers posting here, a pathetic little group of sniveling, snot nosed whiners who blame everyone but themselves for the hellacious mess THEIR Republican Party has created with all their corruption and greed.

Sorry, the truth hurts. You guys desperately need a better cause and leadership. Think about a return to traditional conservatism, if you can.

One other thing - those idiots painting a Hitler mustache on Obama photos are incurring the wrath of the true modern Hitler fans - skinheads and white supremacists do not like the idea of ANY "black" man being equated to Der Fuhrer.

Disgusted| 9.15.09 @ 3:31PM

The mess that the Republicans created? We wouldnt be in this healthcare mess if liberal policies had not restricted or mandated many aspects of healthcare, driving up costs, if the liberal attorneys who fight against tort reform would get out of the way. If immigration laws were actually enforced..I could go on and on. How many democrats/liberals have PROFITED (did I say that evil word?) from the mortgage mess, the 'greenification' of America, and other agendas they push? Give me a break. Our country is in the mess it is because we have forgotten many of the principles that lasted for many years before the 'revolution' of the 60's. And as far as the phantom projections, one could argue that the left did the exact same thing to Bush while he was in office. Liberals just use President Obamas skin color to frighten and divide.

When will the country wake up? The silly games played by both sides do nothing to enhance liberty and prosperity. They are pathetic maneuverings to keep one thing alive..their power. Every politician should be out at the 8 year mark. Too much longer, and you start to represent yourself, not your constituents.

Barbara | 9.15.09 @ 6:26PM

I was at the rally. Most media was not. Simple. How can their reporting be considered accurate? They didn't even cover it until after the fact. We were right up front so we saw who was there. This event coverage was pathetic to say the least.

Nobama| 9.15.09 @ 6:32PM

Biggin and Marxist Reader teabag each other. Liberal perverts.

Samantha| 9.15.09 @ 6:35PM

Ivan Beggin supports sex slavery of 13 year old illegal aliens and accuses republicans of corruption.

Screw yourself, freakin' loser.

Ivan Biggin| 9.15.09 @ 7:59PM

Samantha,

What planet are you living on? How do you get from my pointing out that the Republican Party is imploding to me "supporting sex slavery of 13 year old illegal aliens"?

This is a prime example of why people generally notice that Tea Baggers are complete idiots.

The truth is such a bitch, ain't it?

Republicans are complaining in my local paper that hospitals DARE to treat an illegal alien's child at the emergency room. What a bunch of selfish heartless bastards are you guys? When did you stop being normal human beings, with even an inkling of compassion for your fellow man?

And for all you Conspicuous Christian types out there, I have to ask: To whom would Jesus deny healthcare?

You're lost and consumed in your raw greed, and you're being played as complete stooges by corporate interests who only are concerned with their profit and greed.

Sorry, it's irrefutable. You're bloody idiots.

Samantha| 9.15.09 @ 9:51PM

Beggins, the truth is a b!tch and so are you.

Moron, go teabag yourself; it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it.

Now, that's irrefutable.

Daisy| 9.15.09 @ 9:56PM

10% of Americans are insured. We can insure those folks without screwing it up for the other 90%. Government DOESN'T have to be involved.

If you object you're about power and control not compassion. Nice try, though, tool.

Daisy| 9.15.09 @ 10:18PM

10% of Americans are UNINSURED....

Disgusted| 9.16.09 @ 11:07AM

Ivan,
I feel like I have been run over by a slug..leaving a slimy trail of your ooze behind.

You sound like some of the kids I knew in high school. More than willing to toss out rebukes and foul names, yet turn around and chastise those who do the same.
As far as medical treatment goes:
1. The Constitution does not specify any 'right' for government to provide healthcare
2. Contrary to many folks out there, it will not, nor will it ever be, free
3. The longer any government entity exists, the more inefficiencies creep in to increase costs of operation...take a look at the IRS and the tax code
4. There should be no problem providing emergency, life saving medical care to anyone. However, if they are not citizens, kindly gather them up after they are stable, and return them to their country of origin until they immigrate the LEGAL way. Let their country reimburse ours for the costs incurred. That would be the FAIR thing....isn't fair what you are all griping about?
5. Pulling out the 'christian' card are we? I think Jesus would not order you to deny healthcare to anyone. However, neither would he make it compulsory. The good samaritan did it willingly through a caring heart, not because his government demanded it of him. So until you understand Christianity, please refrain from using it in your political arguments.

Buh bye...but I will leave off the grade school name calling at the end here...

Ivan Biggin| 9.16.09 @ 1:02PM

So we're suddenly strict Constitutionalists? That famous part "insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare" where general welfare is definitely pertinent to health care.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that you and the vast majority of tea baggers cannot actually state what they are paying for their health insurance. And those who are so satisfied with their commercial insurance have had very little occasion to use it, and haven't dealt with the insurance companies!

The fact is that the ONLY real issue here is protecting the wealth of wealthy business concerns. That is why the Republicans fight it tooth and nail!

The Republican objection to health care reform, like all other Republican concerns is not about the quality or value of health care. It is about protecting a corporate profit bottom line.
Like their complete denial of global warming, it has nothing to do with facts - it has to do with corporate financial interests, large companies and interest who don't want ANY regulation, which might cost them profit.

The Republican Party has you guys playing stooges for ALL big corporate interests, from the banking/financial industry, to big oil and coil, to pharma/insurance, anywhere a dollar is being made, there's where the Republican interest lies. You're complete fools for be willfully ignorant and allowing yourself to be played in this manner. Rugged individualism? Please! You're all sheep!

The GOP doesn't give a damn about people, particularly the middle and lower classes, who they hold complete contempt for.

As for Jesus, He certainly took some action against the money changers, didn't he? That wouldn't fly with modern Republicans (who, by the way, claim ownership of Christianity as well), Who would make some idiot claim that Jesus wouldn't force a noble corporation to do anything?

If you went to Sunday school, do you remember anything that Jesus said or did that would support the notions of greed embraced by the modern Republican Party?

Be careful assuming I don't know anything about Christianity and religion, I grew up with it. I saw fully 1/3 of my Southern Baptist church stop attending, because a little 70 year old black woman was visiting and started coming to Church. Don't give me any stupidities about racism, it's rampant, and the Republican Party and their Conspicuous Christian continguent are the worst, the biggest hypocrites of all.

I know that GREED is the CREED with the Republican Party, and the bulk of what is wrong with the planet right now can be traced back to that greed.

Although the Republican Party has always been the political party of the wealthy and having big business interests first, in the past, many "conservative" ideas were valid and arguable.

What passes for the Republican Party nowadays is a collection of misfits, idiots, willfully ignorant, racists, sexists, homophobes, posers and losers. That's reality.

Nobama| 9.16.09 @ 2:16PM

Read Beggins' last sentence--it perfectly illustrates the hatred that suffuses the democrat party of today. What happened to all of your TOLERANCE, moron? Ha ha. Democrats are the party of hate.

The fascist liberal blowhard spews every phony republican canard in the book just like the good little braindead tool that he is. DNC talking points troll.

Beggins, face it; Obama is already a failed president at only 8 months in office--and you know it. He lost healthcare and now he's done.

YOU LOST and WE WON.

Eat sh!t, loser.

disgusted| 9.16.09 @ 2:19PM

Did I EVER say I supported the current Republican party? I don't think so.
I could care less about how you feel regarding Republicans, as I am not aligned with their party philosophies so save your rants for someone else. It is abundantly clear that you hold an intense hatred for them, but please don't project that onto me. I could also argue that I have seen my fair share of democrat "misfits, idiots, willfully ignorant, racists, sexists, homophobes, posers and losers. " That is also reality. And you are right, most of what is wrong can be traced back to greed, but it is HUMAN greed, not associated with any political party. How many liberal politicians have profited from their positions? How many 'green' businesses are headed up by liberals raking in the cash provided by our capitalist system? Just as many as dems as republicans use it for personal gain, so get off your sanctimonious high horse, unless you refuse to accept any reality other than what exists between your blinded eyes and closed ears.

And as far as Jesus, he NEVER forced anyone to do what he asked, yet you support policies that force me to act 'charitably'. That is, in essence, slavery. You would enslave me to your ideals by forcibly taking the product of my labor. That is something I vehemently oppose. What happens if you change your ideals...should I then be held to your new ideals? You would impose your interpretation of what is moral and right on me, forgetting that I also should have the right to reject your morality for my own.

Slavery is alive and well in America. If you oppose the current status quo, you are ridiculed, defamed, antagonized, ostracized, and sent back to the cotton fields, expected to keep your head down and accept what is being dished out. Damned if I am gonna pick cotton for your shirt while my back is naked.

J D Nappers| 9.16.09 @ 2:43PM

Ivan Biggin| 9.16.09 @ 1:02PM

"So we're suddenly strict Constitutionalists? That famous part "insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare" where general welfare is definitely pertinent to health care. "
Wrong, the definition of provide is : supply: give something useful or necessary to: give what is desired or needed, especially support, food or sustenance.
The definition of promote : contribute to the progress or growth of ie:"I am promoting the use of computers in the classroom"
The framers were well aware of the distinction apparently you are not. People for a number of years have been misrepresenting the "Promote" to further their agenda and we see thru the lie that it is.

No one is saying health care is or can be free, it has to be paid for. Yes, taxes will have to be paid, and there is the kernel of the Republican objection - the notion that TAXES should ever have to be paid!
Wrong, The kernel of Republican objection is more centralized on the fact that we the people are more capable of determining where the majority of our money goes than a gov't. We dont mind paying taxes as long as we see they're used efficiently and for those uses that the constitution authorizes not some bureaucrat.

"The fact is that the ONLY real issue here is protecting the wealth of wealthy business concerns. That is why the Republicans fight it tooth and nail! "
Wrong, I fight not for any corporate interest but for my own you can't change that no matter how many times you say it.

"I'll bet dollars to donuts that you and the vast majority of tea baggers cannot actually state what they are paying for their health insurance. And those who are so satisfied with their commercial insurance have had very little occasion to use it, and haven't dealt with the insurance companies!"
Wrong, I know what I pay for my health insurance and I'm a conservative republican. Gimme a dollar and a doughnut since you like to generalize and I'm pretty sure you can't possibly have polled "the vast majority" in order to make such a claim.

"The fact is that the ONLY real issue here is protecting the wealth of wealthy business concerns. That is why the Republicans fight it tooth and nail!"
Wrong, your ignorance is so astounding and your straight from the DNC talking points are so obvious that you try and make the same argument no less than 3 times in your post. I wont refute the same claim twice.....Unless you need me to?

"The Republican objection to health care reform, like all other Republican concerns is not about the quality or value of health care. It is about protecting a corporate profit bottom line.
Like their complete denial of global warming, it has nothing to do with facts - it has to do with corporate financial interests, large companies and interest who don't want ANY regulation, which might cost them profit. "
Wrong, see that's the third time.....are there more? OooooWheee I can't wait to find out!

"As for Jesus, He certainly took some action against the money changers, didn't he? That wouldn't fly with modern Republicans (who, by the way, claim ownership of Christianity as well), Who would make some idiot claim that Jesus wouldn't force a noble corporation to do anything? "
Wrong, one of the primary tenants of Christianity is the fact that we're all free will beings that although God and Jesus want us to follow their example and be perfect they know we are not. God left it up to man to FREELY give of himself because if it's not of free will and with an honest heart then God, it seems, has no interest in self serving "charity".

"If you went to Sunday school, do you remember anything that Jesus said or did that would support the notions of greed embraced by the modern Republican Party?"
Wrong, While certain elements of society are indeed corrupt and greedy for you to make a claim that one party is the party of greed flies in the face of all empirical data and all we know about sociology and psychology. AND as a Christian principled country the US has done more to further the cause of freedom, enhance the living conditions and help the needy around the world moreso than any other country or era in history.

Jesus told the rich man to sell his belongings and give it all to the poor, to "take up thy cross and follow Me". Remember that? There's all that business about camels passing through the eye of a needle before a rich man could enter the Kingdom of God.. Remember? Get your Bible out and look it up..
You quote the scripture but do you know what it means? Many people think that Jesus meant that A rich man's possessions only make him wealthy on earth and may only serve to keep him from realizing the abundance of God's love and forgiveness in heaven. I don't think that anybody thinks that because you're wealthy on earth you can't or wont get into heaven. It matters what you do with the money and if it's according to God's will. You may or may not agree but you quoted without any sort of clarification and many might think you a trying to purposefully misrepresent God's word.

"Be careful assuming I don't know anything about Christianity and religion, I grew up with it. I saw fully 1/3 of my Southern Baptist church stop attending, because a little 70 year old black woman was visiting and started coming to Church. Don't give me any stupidities about racism, it's rampant, and the Republican Party and their Conspicuous Christian continguent are the worst, the biggest hypocrites of all"
Your personal experiences are your own and I won't discount the experience but for you to claim that the Republican Party and Christians are the worst of this then you've got a lot more life to live. I'm as WASP as it gets (in appearance, although I'm more American Indian than anything else) and I've been on the receiving end of some severe hatred based on nothing more then me being white and skinny. I wont give you any racism stupidities but racism exists on all sides in all colors in all religions and in athiest/agnostics. No one holds the prize for racial justice purity and for every example of white on black racism I can dig up just as many on blackvswhite, whitevshispanic, hispanicvsblack, asianvsblack, blackonblack and every variation in between.

"What passes for the Republican Party nowadays is a collection of misfits, idiots, willfully ignorant, racists, sexists, homophobes, posers and losers. That's reality"
Wrong, you choose to see the bad because it fits your warped world view, any cross section of society has their "bad stepchild" and no political party or ideal is immune. We're human we make mistakes but most Christians, Conservatives and Republicans, I've met try to live a good honest life and try to improve their minds, body and spirit. For what it's worth most Democrats I've met do too. I dont agree with many of their ideas or policy perspectives but I do my best to make them aware of my point of view and why I think the way I do. You seem bitter and angry and maybe a revisiting to church may return some perspective.

SoCon| 9.16.09 @ 3:09PM

Liberals are dangerous because of their arrogance and their stereotypes. Beggins doesn't even know us and he has already passed harsh judgment on us.

Beggins is a liberal example of groupthink--exactly what conservatives reject. I put NOTHING past these people; they rationalize any heinous deed as long as it's for the "public good."

We've got to fight people like Beggins; they're a real threat to our liberty.

Nick| 9.16.09 @ 5:07PM

Ivan,

What an apropos name, bolshevic.

By the way, the preamble to the U.S. Constitution is not an enumerated power delegated to a paticular branch of the government, moron.

deathbymedia| 9.23.09 @ 1:30AM

I have done my own study base on a devised stationary methodology and calculation which you can find here:

http://deathbymedia.wordpress......stimation/

It's backed by visual evidence (pictures and clips) all available in the same entry, plus determining the boundaries of the rally and calculation of the final tally derived from the density of the crowd at each given block. My calculus puts the figures around 130k up to 160k.

coolpete| 12.7.09 @ 8:53AM

My point about the Washington "Times" is that whenever it published something bad about "bubba the pervert", or any other liberal, it was called "Rev. Moon's paper" by lefties.

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coolpete| 12.9.09 @ 2:58PM

It is difficult to judge crowd sizes. But it's difficult to tell the difference between 60 and 80 thousand; not 80 thousand and a million.

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coolpete| 12.11.09 @ 12:26AM

The sad truth is that much of America and most of the rest of the planet see them as they are: useful idiots for the GOP.

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abril| 12.11.09 @ 8:09AM

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abril| 12.11.09 @ 8:13AM

that was really great

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driver updater| 12.24.09 @ 3:02AM

The controversy over crowd-size estimates for Washington political thanks for the sharing

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steve| 12.29.09 @ 4:38AM

When did you stop being normal human beings, with even an inkling of compassion for your fellow man?

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online fax| 12.31.09 @ 9:04AM

technology| 7.8.10 @ 8:03AM

Sorry, Nick, but according to the Official Stacy McCain Crowd Estimating Handbook, "freaking huge" is larger than a "crapload."

killua| 3.1.11 @ 2:39AM

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