The American Spectator

J.D. Urbach| 9.10.09 @ 9:14AM

Philip, one correction... In Britain heckling the chief executive (prime minister) during remarks is standard operating procedure. Heckling the head of state (the Queen) would be a breech of decorum.

John - TMF| 9.10.09 @ 9:15AM

On a night when the current elected chief executive stands in front of his minions and excoriates the opposition during a blatantly partisan and untruthful speech, a lone challenger refuses to make his way to the back of the bus.

The One: (translation) "You Republicans shut up and sit down. Take your medicine and like it..."

Joe Wilson: (translation) "HELL NO!"

To Congressman Wilson I offer a famous quote from Abraham Lincoln to his friend Joshua Speed in 1855 on why he was a Republican.

"I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except Negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except Negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."

Last evening The One, and the Democrats threw off any chimera of bipartisanship, and offered only their intolerance, and drive for total power in its place. They stifle debate, and use false comity for cover.

Hypocrites all.

r/The Mighty Fahvaag (a Catholic and Republican)

PJROUB| 9.10.09 @ 9:31AM

While this is not Britian, nether is the American president a king or queen reigning over us. Perhaps this congressman is tired like alot of other Americans of being hearing a lot of rhetoric from both sides of the aisle.

Rachel Ann| 9.10.09 @ 9:33AM

oh all the hullabaloo makes me want to send Obama a box of tissues and tell him "don't worry, we won't let those mean bullies bother you again..." sheesh, the speech. Or maybe that's it. They have to find something to talk about.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 9:33AM

I will be very proud to have a gold star for good behavior affixed to my forehead as I am led to the gallows.

I dare not misbehave. Why, what would my executioner think of me?

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 9:35AM

Actually, a kind of low-level murmuring or grumbling IS a regular and time-honored feature of these events.

Directly shouting an accusation that the president is lying -- an accusation that would have been met with challenges for a duel when this country was founded -- is unprecedented, which is why Republicans are almost to a man coming out against Wilson's action.

Just a quick reminder: England does NOT have a separation of powers as the U.S. does. The president is NOT a member of Congress; he represents a co-equal branch of government, and he is the only nationally elected government leader. The traditions of the Congress recognize and acknowledge this.

You're right: our president does NOT submit to routine questioning by members of Congress the way the PM does in England. That's because the Constitution accords him equal and separate power.

As to your point number 7: did you even listen to the speech, or were you too busy yelling "Liar!" at your television?

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 9:41AM

Liberal Reader, I know you are impressed with what you inaccurately interpret as your capacious intelligence, but, believe me, you are a moron.

DAC| 9.10.09 @ 9:50AM

LR, help us stupid conservatives out here, please. What exactly--be precise, use facts--did Dear Leader spew last night that was NOT a lie? Try to provide just 3 examples. We're waiting.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 9:57AM

DAC --

That's not how it works, my man. If you accuse someone of lying, the onus falls on you to prove he is lying.

Lying is "not speaking truth," and it is illogical to demand someone prove a negative.

If the president is lying -- especially if he is lying as much as you say -- it shouldn't require too much effort on your part to prove it.

Just a hint:

The facts are not on your side. You should try to think of some irrational and paranoid fantasy you can substitute for a discussion of the facts.

For example, you should be arguing that the president is trying to brainwash youngsters; or, that he's a Muslim Manchurian candidate; or, that he is setting up concentration camps; or, that he is establishing death panels to kill the elderly.

That's the way you carry on a political argument in this country.

LLK| 9.10.09 @ 10:07AM

First and Foremost: ANY person in the US can walk (or be carried) into any hospital (not privately owned) in the US and receive medical treatment. MY problem is that the man pretending to be president (show me his birth certificate) says "all DOCUMENTED illegal aliens" will receive healthcare. Do some of you think the rest of us have no brain?
Rep. Wilson should never have apologized. I am proud of him.
Obama has admitted that he has not read the entire proposed bill--how can he defend something he has not even read? He also told our school children yesterday to "stay in school" so they could get a good job. Isn't that a contradiction in that millions receive welfare (including illegals) and many never turn their hand. I worked sometimes 3 jobs and I resent having to pay for some lazy-rear who refuses to turn their hand.
I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I'm just tired of stupidity.

LLK| 9.10.09 @ 10:14AM

To be fair: I would consider the healthcare plan IF, and only IF, Mr. Obama and EVERY senator and representative subject themselves to the same plan. THAT will never happen.
Rep. Wilson is still correct: Mr. Obama is a liar.
I have read the ENTIRE healthcare document. Last night, he LIED; at the very least he contradicted himself.

scott | 9.10.09 @ 10:15AM

total disgrace . why is it a surprise that moderate republicans are leaving the carpetbaggers .
to point 2 . illegals are not covered by this bill . fact. if the republicans are questioning loopholes ...they are covered by state laws . if they over-reached the gop would have cried socialism .
for the record ...in this country NO ONE IS DENIED CARE . so the fake outcry is a joke .
whether we like it or not ..illegals get free care now, we dont need a new bill for it.
i have started funding wilsons opponent.......ignorant people should be removed.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 10:17AM

Liberal reader, why can't you just disappear into your bedroom and visit a porn site like every other adolescent? Other people are not interested in participating in your onanism.

But then, if an ass brays in an empty stable, no one will hear it, will they?

And if an intellectually hollow and emotionally callow blowhard pontificates into the mirror, well, HE'S impressed, but no one else will "ooh" and "ah," will they?

I guess it's to be expected. It's a developmental thing (although, sadly, liberals never advance beyond adolescence). Toddlers love to slip their feet into their parents' shoes and attempt to traipse around, imagining what it must be like to be all grown up.

Hint: Pedantry, didacticism, rigid ideology, shibboleths, condescension and a breathtaking arrogance coupled with a formidable ignorance are no substitute for intelligence.

However, those traits can make you president.

Besides, no matter how smart you think you are, you will ultimately serve as the same kindling that will be unceremoniously thrown onto the fire of totalitarianism as the poor schulbs you seem to think you are lording it over.

The good news: You will remain too stupid to realize you are so much fungible fodder.

scott | 9.10.09 @ 10:21AM

llk ..........you are a birther and are actually useless to any logical talk . go back to your trailor or compound and live your life in misery .
your pathetic existence has doomed the republican party to a laughing stock .
yes ....an intelligent black man is president ...get over it ...loser.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 10:21AM

and the republicans are the champions of bipartisanship. one of the bills in the house already have 160 amendments from the republics but they will still vote AGAINST ANY BILL! whatever bill will come out they will not vote for it. i guarantee. what do you call that? to the republics it is all politics. it is all to make obama look bad. from the birthers to the no health care formers. it is all politics.

Laurie| 9.10.09 @ 10:27AM

Yelling at your TV is one thing, disagreeing is okay. Whether you are Liberal or Conservative have some decorum. You do not heckle the Commander in Chief. Remember the world is watching and they already think we are the rudest people in the world, let's not prove them right. South Carolina needs to rethink their choices next time they vote.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 10:28AM

An intelligent black man is president?

I thought Barack Obama was president.

Well color me embarrassed!

DAC| 9.10.09 @ 10:35AM

LR: Thanks for the patronizing and (as I expected) fact-free response. I didn't realize that you were the arbiter of how arguments are conducted, and what level of proof is required, from whom and when. A clever distraction from the total absence of facts and logic from all of your posts, this one included. If you spent 5 minutes on a website other than porn or People magazine, you could discern the following clear-cut lies:

1) Chairman Maobama's plan will help everybody get covered. Lie, or more accurately, an obfuscation, because it begs the question, covered by what entity, at what level of coverage? Everyone's covered in Cuba, is that the standard? If not, what is? Blubbering that everyone will be covered isn't a proposal, it isn't policy, it's an empty vessel into which any bullshit can be poured.
2) Dear Leader's plan will curb insurance industry absuses. Again, either a complete lie, because it assumes facts not in evidence, or an obfuscation, because "curbing abuses" can mean anything he wants it to mean, and what he has said, publicly, in the recent past is that he wants to put all private insurers under the gummint thumb or out of business entirely--the latter of which would certainly curb abuses; the former would exacerbate them (ever heard of Medicare fraud?).
3) This is the biggest lie, that the Mocha Messiah's genius plan won't add to the deficit. Seriously? Since when did $900 billion (double it in reality) NOT add to the deficit? "Savings" from Medicare to pay for it (no higher taxes, of course, another lie)? Like the savings from the Post Office, Amtrak, every gov-run enterprise from time immemorial--such savings don't, won't, and never will exist. Especially with a group of Chicago welfare-scammers and thugs running the show.
Enough for now, I have better things to do--suffice to say, if you were unfortunate enough to be within arm's reach of me right now, I wouldn't even bother to field-dress you before feeding you to local stray dogs.

OBSERVO| 9.10.09 @ 10:38AM

LLK. So, let me see if I understand you correctly. If a person is an illegal alien, and this PERSON becomes ill, they forfit the human dignity of being treated. WE, the USA, the richest country in the world, cannot extend a hand of humanity to someone, who, because they risked everything for their own known reasons,(which might have merit) to come illegally to this country. Let me ask you: Have you ever in your life taken a risk to better yourself, or broken a law for what you believed to be a higher good reason? Saying that the RICH USA should be heartless and callous and so lacking in human UNDERSTANDING as to deny a HUMAN BEING care because it might cause some one a blooming tax dollar is, quite amazing logic. Notice I did not call you any names or defame your person or your person in the writing of this note. It would not be civil now would it? Oh, and have a nice day!

LLK| 9.10.09 @ 10:39AM

Dear Scott,
Get an education or learn to use a dictionary: "trailor" is spelled "trailer". Actually I have no problem with a black man pretending to be president. Alan Keyes would have been great. I do have a problem with, (as the old saying goes), don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
To GRZMLYK--thank you! However, there are few who will comprehend your posting!

LLK| 9.10.09 @ 10:42AM

OBSERVO: READ my posting: NO ONE (not even an illegal) in the US can legally be denied treatment at any hospital unless it is privately owned (receiving no government funds). My complaint is that a person wishing to come to the US should do so LEGALLY.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 10:52AM

Well, LLK, I happen to think the time for us to take the gloves off has arrived.

And those who continue to cling to the belief that Obama is super-intelligent cannot be very intelligent themselves. It's that simple. He's facile, but not intelligent.

I knew a guy in college who was a theater major. he was functionally illiterate. No one knew. He faked it very, very well. Now, granteed, as a theater major you aren't really called on to do a lot of reading. And eventually I was onto this guy - but he had perfected the art of slipperiness. He was so practiced at deflecting questions, comments or general topics that might threaten his con that it was amazing to watch.

When it comes to intelligence, Obama IS that guy. Good at faking intelligence, but so far I see zero evidence of anything extraordinary.

Alan Keyes, on the other hand - along with other black giants like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, etc. are OBVIOUSLY highly intelligent, highly-educated, extremely refined thinkers.

So it ain't a black thing. But you'll never convince liberals of that.

OBSERVO| 9.10.09 @ 11:10AM

LLK
You and I are in agreement. There, see, that is COMMON GROUND. Instead of disrespecting one another, I suggest something new and refreshing: having a debate of the issues. I too want persons to come to this country legally. However, I understand that there are persons here for legitamate reasons, known only to them. They are, without a doubt, bearing the burden of risk. We love to gamble in this country, e.g. Los Vegas. Some actually gamble with their lives for foolish reasons: to impress others, for thrills, for no reason at all. I have no right to judge others who bear the burden of their own risks. I believe risking deportation is possibly a reasonable risk to take, if legal means are not within reach. It cause lots of pasos to legally come to the US. Many, I suspect are not well to do, South of the border down Mexico way. Ya think? The issue is healthcare, I know. I am an INDEPENDENT voter. President Obama, despite all of the hyperbolic rhetoric on the part of his detractors, was elected legally. I admire his civil approach, and articulate ability to convey messages, often without cue cards, or prepared speach notes. I have heard both Dems and Repubs agree on 80% of what is needed to overhall the healthcare mess. We are better as a people if we work together in a civil, respectful way, than disparage our counterparts. Do you not agree. I believe there is a time to brainstorm, and then there is a time to make some hard choices, i.e. set the material on the table and vote on it and start moving forward. You are a good person and so am I and we will still be after all the votes are cast. Let's get on with this parade! : )

Yosemeti Sam| 9.10.09 @ 11:19AM

" ... Wilson made the undecided viewer more likely to side with Obama ...."

What undecided viewer? Specify.

Wilson spoke out instinctively - truly.
Then PC'd his way back to being a RINO.

MJ Nelson| 9.10.09 @ 11:25AM

Obama is just the current citizen occupant of the White House, not a king to be worshipped, and he is a liar. Good for Joe.

conservative Bob| 9.10.09 @ 11:35AM

Wilson apologized immediately. I suspect it was sincere and out of respect for the office of the president.
I think it interesting that the rest of the discussion here fails to address the most significant point in the article.
The fact that there is so much being made of 2 words shouted in the passion of the moment indicates there was very little else of merit to come out of the speech.

The majority of the people in ever increasing numbers do not want this plan do not trust this congress or this administration. Dems have lost the debate and are losing support across the board. Nothing the president said changed in anyway the basic concern and thereby the fundamental resistance to this effort.
Democrats have the numbers in the house and senate, they have a willing president. It makes no difference what so ever what the republicans say, want or do. The Democrats have complete control of the legislative and executive branches of government. It is within their power to pass whatever bill they agree among themselves they want to pass. The question is in the face of such wide spread popular resistance will they over rule the people and pass it anyway.
This has nothing to do with Republicans or their opposition, count the votes. Veto/filibuster proof senate and overwhelming majority in the house.
The only thing they need the Republicans for is cover for the time when reality meets the overblown promise and rhetoric, and the whole thing blows up and it becomes an unmitigated disaster.

Benigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 11:41AM

DAC, the only content i got from your post is your creativity in describing obama, by the way you forgot to use "fuhrer" in one of your descriptions.

1. "will help everybody get covered". You are referring to the public option? yes it will. Take not of "will help". In private insurance with the maximizing profit motive as the main motivator, the best strategy is to exclude those who are really sick. In a public option with profit not as the motive, THEY WILL BE COVERED.

2. the main reason for why we need health care reform is because of health insurance abuses - Rescission. ever heard of this. It's like setting a checking account in a bank then one day you come to withdraw and you are told that because your account was overdrawn one time now you cannot access your checking account anymore and will be closed but you won't get your money back. Your premiums are used to lobby congress and pay for golden parachutes, etc.

3. "$900 billion will not add to the deficit" How do you know it will? are you psychic? look democrats have a history of turning deficits into surpluses. the republican history is going the other way around. There is one way to ver. This will not be spent in one year. This is a 10-year budget. Besides this is smaller than what has been spent in an unnecessary war (spent in less than 10 years) that had no weapons of mass destruction - the MAIN reason why we went to iraq.

at least your name calling made me chuckle so it wasn't entirely a waste reading your post.

Bwenigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 11:45AM

LLK said "My complaint is that a person wishing to come to the US should do so LEGALLY."

You just summed up why the correct response to anybody who raises this issue in health care discussions is .... THIS IS ANOTHER TOPIC!!!! so move on.

OBSERVO| 9.10.09 @ 11:46AM

Grzmlyk,
Put your gloves back on and your bravado, and put downs away. They are not useful or impressive. I am impressed by logic, and reason. neither of which I have seen much of in what you have to say. Keyes and Claraence Thomas are your examples of wisdom. Oh my, you are living in a smoke filled room. Turn on a fan! Nice day!

LLK| 9.10.09 @ 11:49AM

Dear DAC and Grzmlyk,
Thank you both. You are truly in a class of your own. You both have the penchant for intelligent rhetoric.
Quite often, after posting a comment, I am beseiged by uneducated, air-headed liberals, who side-step the issues at hand by calling me "pathetic", unfeeling, ultra-conservative, etc. This is their ignorant sleight-of-hand. Ooooh! Did my eyes follow the sparklies and the pretty colors?
The issues and the topic remain: Rep. Wilson was correct and had every right to speak out. Obama lied--he contradicted himself. The healthcare bill AS PROPOSED will bankrupt this nation. And this could go on and on
One last thing, Scott: Obama is NOT black. Do the research: He is half black, one-quarter white and one quarter mixed German, French and Irish and possibly Cherokee.
OBSERVO: :"his articulate ability to convey messages, often without cue cards, or prepared speech notes"--where were you when his teleprompter malfunctioned?

Benigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:04PM

conservative bob,

so much is made of the 2 words because it was unamerican, unpatriotic, and disrespectful of the office of the president addressing the joint session, stuff that the republics were so concerned with during the last 8 years but are now just called 2 lousy words. hypocrisy?

"The majority of the people in ever increasing numbers" - majority? MAJORITY? what is your proof of this? As far as i know the president's approval rating is still greater than the disapporval rating. you might be talking about the previous president.

"do not trust this congress or this administration". - why because maybe the president is ..... BLACK?

"Dems have lost the debate" - instead lost the shouting match that i agree.

"Democrats have the numbers in the house and senate, they have a willing president. It makes no difference what so ever what the republicans say, want or do." - how about the 160 amendments introduced by republicans already incorporated? how about the 3 republicans being included in the 6 member finance committee negotiation group?

"The Democrats have complete control of the legislative and executive branches of government. It is within their power to pass whatever bill they agree among themselves they want to pass. " - maybe if it was george Bush but this president ran on bipartisanship and he is just trying to fulfill his promise.

"The question is in the face of such wide spread popular resistance will they over rule the people and pass it anyway". until obama's approval rating drops lower than bush's rating that statement will just be laughable so move on.

"This has nothing to do with Republicans or their opposition" - this is actually true in another sense. this is really the health insurance companies versus the american people. and the republicans and their supporters are either beholden to the health insurance lobbyists or are just too DUMB too realize it.

"The only thing they need the Republicans for is cover for the time when reality meets the overblown promise and rhetoric, and the whole thing blows up and it becomes an unmitigated disaster." - personally i believe the democrats should move on and forget about bipartisanship because it is obvious that the republicans have no interest in this and when it succeeds the republicans cannot get any credit. Disaster? just like medicare is a disaster, just like social security is a disaster? just like medicaid is a disaster? oh but they will be bankrupt in the future and therefore they are failures!!! another scare tactic.
if these programs are real failures why haven't the republicans submitted a bill to get rid of these programs? why did bush fail to privatize social security? why? why?

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:13PM

LLK said

"The healthcare bill AS PROPOSED will bankrupt this nation."
- this is the same thing that these republics have been saying about social security, medicare, medicaid. but if asked if they are in favor of repealing any of these programs what is their response? you republics need to put your money where your mouth is. such hypocrisy and ignorance! i can't believe it.

"One last thing, Scott: Obama is NOT black. Do the research: He is half black, one-quarter white and one quarter mixed German, French and Irish and possibly Cherokee."
- what does this prove???? anyway you republics need to move on. Your daughter (the country) came home one day and she said "daddy meet my boyfriend. oh guess what? he's BLACK!!!! or according to LLK, he's half black.

republics, just accept it. because your bro bush really screwed things up this racist country would rather vote for a black man...again ooops a half black man. sorry LLK.

Benigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:20PM

MJ Nelson said:

"Obama is just the current citizen occupant of the White House, not a king to be worshipped, and he is a liar. Good for Joe."

well what did he apologize for then? who is worshipping Obama like a king? name one?

"he is a liar" - i bet your pissed off too that wilson apologized. ok what is your proof?

on the other hand your buddy bush truly LIED us into a war that has cost us MORE THAN $900 BILLION IN LESS THAN 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 12:23PM

Hey Observo:

If you are impressed by logic and reason, how do you explain your own posts, which are devoid of both?

I didn't say Keyes and Thomas are examples of wisdom. I said they were highly-intelligent, highly-educated and refined thinkers. You couldn't carry either man's jock strap. And I do think Thomas is wise. Keyes, not so much. But I have no doubt his IQ dwarfs your own.

No doubt you don't agree because thems boys done wandered off the plantation, eh? Don't you hate it when the blacks throw off the victim chains you so painstakingly forge?

I will have a nice day. As soon as people who think like you move to a different country.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 12:24PM

First, if an illegal alien requires emergency medical care he SHOULD receive it, and I imagine he probably will. Americans are basically decent people of good will.

Second, I actually side more with conservatives who argue we need to get tougher on illegal immigration. I think it's imperative that this form of corporate welfare (for that is what it is) be stopped. The Republicans -- who never forget their kneepads when confronted by corporate interests -- ought to listen to their base more on this issue.

Third, Obama did NOT offer a bill last night, or even a "plan." That's just not how the legislative procedure is working.

You people were not taught CIVICS in school.

Maybe conservatives are right and public education is failing our students. No where is that proposition more evident than when people around here discuss American history or spout of on how laws get made.

For a refresher, you might start with the School House Rock video series.

"I'm just a bill....sitting here on capitol hill ..."

martin j smith| 9.10.09 @ 12:34PM

Now if the Democratic party behaved with civility when GWB gave say state of the union spoke perhaps they might have the higher rode--but they booed him in 2004--when they were in the minority. Besides that Obama and his colleagues have behaved most un-civily in responding to those who disagree with their Health care legislation. So--it miught not be nice--but the time for nicy-nicy is over--lets get down to business until legislation is actually drawn up that is transparent and for all to know what the voters are buying into.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:34PM

LLK said

"To be fair: I would consider the healthcare plan IF, and only IF, Mr. Obama and EVERY senator and representative subject themselves to the same plan. THAT will never happen." - then you are on obama's side. this is what he is trying to do. because members of congress are receiving GOVERNMENT SPONSORED HEALTH CARE with exchanges!!!! you idiot!

"Rep. Wilson is still correct: Mr. Obama is a liar."
- first of all he is not correct because he apologized. Now if you accuse obama as a liar where's the proof? talk is cheap.

"I have read the ENTIRE healthcare document."

ok what is on page 354?

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:38PM

martin j smith,

yes there was booing but name me a democrat that shouted "YOU LIE" to a republican president addressing a joint session. THAT WAS UNPRECEDENTED. That is why fellow republican lemmings were unanimous on having him apologize. your representatives are not on your side on this one. mm?

prakash| 9.10.09 @ 12:40PM

Grzmlyk,

you probably have a picture of CLarence Thomas pubic hair on that coke don't you?

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 12:46PM

Grzmlyk said

" knew a guy in college who was a theater major. he was functionally illiterate. No one knew. He faked it very, very well. Now, granteed, as a theater major you aren't really called on to do a lot of reading. And eventually I was onto this guy - but he had perfected the art of slipperiness. He was so practiced at deflecting questions, comments or general topics that might threaten his con that it was amazing to watch.

When it comes to intelligence, Obama IS that guy. Good at faking intelligence, but so far I see zero evidence of anything extraordinary".

- seems like you are talking about no. 43. GEORGE W. BUSH. Now he was a bastion of intelligence wasn't he?

"Alan Keyes, on the other hand - along with other black giants like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, etc. are OBVIOUSLY highly intelligent, highly-educated, extremely refined thinkers".
- now how can any of these pretenders be considered intelligent. First of all they all been fooled that the market system SOLVES ALL OUR problems, that the government is some evil bogeyman that we should resist and be afraid of. Take note this eas the garbage being spewed by the republicans before the great depression - once again started during a republican administration- who also lowered taxes for the rich, who also deregulated a lot of gov't rules. We just never learn from history.

martin j smith| 9.10.09 @ 12:48PM

You bet begnino malvar. And that is why the republican party is not what is driving the opposition.
Its the tail wagging the dog. One day the tail will morph into a snake-bite the dog and go foward in doing what has to be done. In other words--replace the ones who are moral and political cowards and opportunists and replace them with leaders. Also ignore idiotic responses-you know who they are.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:09PM

martin j,
"In other words--replace the ones who are moral and political cowards and opportunists and replace them with leaders."
are you referring to the birthers, 10thers, death panel advocates, 2nd amemdment advocates? for some reason the figure of Timothy McVeigh keeps coming to mind here.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 1:09PM

There are FIVE committees, 3 in the House and 2 in the Senate, writing bills. This is the way it works when Congress is functioning properly.

Obama has laid out certain things he wants to see in the final legislation, which is still a ways off.

Chanting "Read the Bill" is idiotic, as is claiming to possess "the document" containing health care policy.

House bills and Senate bills have yet to be reconciled; bills in the separate houses have themselves yet to be drawn up into a bill.

Congress in large part agrees that people should not be dropped for pre-existing conditions. Given this broad, bi-partisan agreement, and policy MUST, it absolutely MUST, have some sort of MANDATE that healthy people buy into the system. If it didn't, people could simply wait until they get sick to buy health insurance, a situation that wouldn't make any economic sense.

Once you get to this point, you have the beginnings of a coherent health care policy. "Let the free market fix everything" is not a policy; it's just the chaos and confusion that prevails now.

There are, essentially, three kinds of health care system:

1. Socialized medicine

2. Universal coverage by a consortium of private and public concerns

3. Free market

#1 is actually NOT all that typical. It is NOT what exists in France, probably the best health care system in the world, or Germany, or Switzerland, or even Canada. It is NOT what any Democrats endorse.

#2 Is what MOST industrialized, wealthy democracies have. There are many different versions and ways of doing it; Democrats seem like their drifting towards a system much like Switzerland, the birth place and HOME of world wide capitalism. The notion that Switzerland endorses "socialism" is so absurd, one feels an ingrate for not appreciating so deliciously comic a notion.

#3 is what most human beings on earth live with. If you get sick and you can pay, that day, for treatment, you get treatment. If you can't pay, you die. This seems to be -- ultimately -- what Republicans endorse.

grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 1:16PM

We never learn from history? You are right. No matter how many times socialism fails to produce anything except misery and oppression, morons like you keep promoting it.

Liberal reader, I do hope that we get the health care you want. And that you require it very quickly.

How long will you have to wait for that MRI before you are no longer a True Believer?

I truly, truly hope you get what you are asking for.

Benigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:18PM

Liberal Leader,

Strict socialized medicine probably does not exist even for the countries that are closest to this - France, UK, and Canada - all have private options especially for elective care. However everybody in their country are covered. In all 3 most doctors are government employees which makes it for the most part socialized medicine.

The number 2 model is the massachusetts model with the public aspect covered by medicare, medicaid and their version of SCHIP. We can use this model but put a public option for the tweeners - those not old enough for medicare and not poor enough for medicaid. that's really it!

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 1:23PM

Hey Benitto:

Before you write to Obama telling him you've solved the problem, you might want to talk to someone who lives in Massachusetts and ask them how it's working out.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:26PM

grzmlyk,

how long will somebody wait until one can afford to get an MRI exam to finally get one? and every year the private health companies will keep increasing the price (to increase their profits from the previous yr) to further ration the service. here there is no line because only those who can afford or who have insurance can lineup. actually even those with insurance will behave like they don't have insurance if the deductible is so high anyway - common among many policies such as many HMO plans. if there is a preponderance of long lines - still not proven - i would rather take this than forcibly not even lining up because i cannot afford it or when the time will come when i would not be able to afford it. This is the only industrialized country where this is even an issue. geeez.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:33PM

Gremlin,

The problem with massachusetts is that the tweeners HAVE to get PRIVATE insurance. That is the only difference between their system and the average state. It is not well planned and the public option if there is one is bogus! what needs to be done is maintain the mandate so there are no free riders then offer a robust public option for the tweeners or just extend medicare or medicaid to cover everybody.

grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 1:36PM

You are an absolute, unmitigated moron. You haven't got a single clue as to what you're talking about. Not one. You are entirely ignorant of the topic about which you pontificate.

It's all putative, hypothetical talk to you because the most important thing in your life is flattering your own moral vanity. And you think that makes you "GOOD."

I hope you are young. That is your only defense.

Believe me, when it comes your turn, all of a sudden you won't think socialized medicine is so wonderful. Guaranteed.

We both know that when you're not posturing you're a selfish bastard - whining about the selfishness of capitalists doesn't change that fact. It only makes you a hypocrite.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 1:37PM

What's interesting is that in Englad the wealthy can and often do pay for private doctors to perform certain procedures.

However, if they get seriously ill, they return to the public service, which is considered far better than the private.

Thus, while they may have a shorter wait to -- say -- have a benign cyst removed by a private doctor, they'll high tail it to the public hospital for proper care when they need the best service.

NEVERTHELESS, a need has emerged for a GIANT, bleeding heart LIBERAL SPENDING PROGRAM:

I hereby propose that federal tax dollars be SPENT to fund trips abroad -- to the U.K. and France preferably -- for ALL conservative Americans.

There they can see for themselves the health care systems they so vociferously denounce.

We will also provide them with funds to visit the great museums and other cultural centers of Europe, to humanize them and make them more interesting for us to speak to in bars and at social functions.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:49PM

gremlin,

is it ok with you that 14,000 die every year because of lack of insurance? because in other industrialized countries this is unheard of. in other industrialized countries it would be a scandal if this happens. is it ok with you when people in a road accident refuse to be picked up by the EMT claiming that it is because they don't have insurance or money to pay for the service? is this ok with you? these are not hypotheticals.
you must be a christian too. and if you are a true christian is this acceptable to you?

stop lecturing me about life because so far based on your arguments all you have showed me is that you are gullible, easily fooled, easily swayed by people shouting, and is basically ...just a lemming. the problem is and this is what makes it worse - YOU DO NOT EVEN REALIZE IT. Have a good day.

Benigno MAlvar| 9.10.09 @ 1:53PM

Liberal Reader,

what a great idea!!!! I'm all for it. wait some of them might be doing this already although it is in Costa Rica or Thailand where the cost of the procedure is so much less and this includes the flight, the accomodations and the free touristy stay!

Grzmlyk| 9.10.09 @ 2:00PM

Benito, go preen somewhere else. You are a useless human being. You are cannon fodder. You are a fungible cog in the great propaganda machine.

You are not impressive in any way - well, I take that back. Your hubris is impressive, if unexceptional in mindless liberals.

You are utterly ignorant of that which you speak.
There ain't an original thought rolling around that vast wasteland of a brain, is there? Well, at least you are proficient at regurgitating absolute bullshit as "facts." Maybe you can get someone from ACORN to toss you a biscuit.

I'm guessing you won't be so cavalier about throwing your own money around as you are about throwing Other People's Money around. That takes no courage, nor moral commitment and no character, half-pint.

I'm not a Christian, but thanks for making the assumption.

I can't wish you a nice day. After all, that wouldn't be fair, would it? Why should you have a nice day when there are people out there who aren't having nice days? Everybody should have EQUAL DAYS that are neither good nor bad, and are neither beneficial nor detrimental but only serve the great and glorious State!

The State is All! Obama is the State! Long Live Obama!

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 2:23PM

Gremlin,

I still see no hint of anything close to being cerebral. sorry. Listen, name calling is just more evidence of that -- a lack thereof. It is really hard to have any meaningful discussion with somebody who thinks the world is black or white. Go talk to Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin. I'm sure you admire them. You probably admire Vitter and the governor of South Carolina too - doesn't even have the decency to resign.

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 3:07PM

Joe Wilson deserves a MEDAL for what he said last night.

The medal should be withdrawn for the apology he gave later.

To defend Mr. Wilson's "You Lie" statement, I will now condescend to the liberal intellectual level by stating: "Obama started it!"

Angel| 9.10.09 @ 3:52PM

Nick, couldn't we FINISH it just once? When, oh, when are our representatives going to grow a pair?

I'm so damn sick of bringing a knife to a gun fight every freakin' time.

SoCon| 9.10.09 @ 3:54PM

I bet Lib Reader/Jeremiah and Benigno visit Thailand on 'touristy' vacations. Liberal perverts.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 3:58PM

So Con --

You are a stupid douche bag.

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 4:26PM

Angel,

Couldn't agree more, my dear!

The Republican leaders still don't get it, do they?

The GOP caucus shouldn't have participated in B. O.'s farce to begin with. There should have been a bunch of empty seats to B.O.'s left.

Or they should've all got up and walked out. That would've probably caused some bleeding hearts to vapor-lock!

Did you see the look on San-Fran-Nan's face? I thought she was going to pop a stitch from her latest "tune-up"!

My father convinced me to watch, and we were both yelling "liar" at the screen long before the Republicans let out their first "booo".

God bless!

Conservative Bob| 9.10.09 @ 4:42PM

Was school cancelled somewhere today?

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 4:51PM

SoCon,

another black and white guy. all liberals are gay, believe in gay marriage, smoke pot (expect libertarians), commit abortion, adore lenin, stalin, and all conservatives are patriotic, strong family values, and true americans. This is the world you guys live in? when are you going to grow up? there are mark foleys, larry craigs, mark sanfords, david vitters , michael duvalls , oxycotin addicted, cocaine addicted among your ranks!!! unfortunately the world is not the way james dobson describes it.

health care for the wealthy| 9.10.09 @ 5:02PM

Nick,

I pity you and your father. Actually when bush gave speeches there were more people shouting liar than there were yesterday. that includes not only americans but also non-americans were shouting liar when bush was giving his speeches.

i don't know if you saw an issue of the economist last year that divided the whole world into red and blue countries. I think except Angola and one more country (plus of course the loyal republicans here in the U.S.) were in favor of red. The rest of the world was blue. This was very startling. When are you guys going to wake up that the old unregulated free market is A LIE!!! even Allan Greenspan has finally realized it! The old republican way is becoming a dinosaur. WAKE UP!

do unto others| 9.10.09 @ 5:06PM

if you read republican/conservative posts here there is a lot of name-calling. in fact it is mostly name-calling. trying to get substance from what they say is like pulling teeth. no wonder they are easily influenced by scare tactics, slogans. tsk tsk. read a book once in awhile guys or read the newspaper. there is more going on in this world than fox news and rush limbaugh.

Appalachian hills of argentina| 9.10.09 @ 5:11PM

turns out Joe the screamer Wilson's main contributor to his campaign is ... guess what? HEALTH CARE COMPANIES!!! what a surprise!!!!

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 5:17PM

Mr. Malvar,

The difference between us (conservatives) and you bleeding heart libs is that we say those acts are wrong. No matter who commits them.

We don't defend them like you marxists do. We hold most of them to account.

Just yesterday a Republican state rep. from California had to resign because he was caught on tape bragging about sexual perversions he had committed with two lobbyists.

Barney Frank is still the CHAIRMAN of the House Committee on Financial Services!

Liberals are liars and hypocrites.

Benigno Malvar| 9.10.09 @ 5:26PM

Nick,

and Vitter is still a senator, and so is larry Craig and John Ensign of NEvada, who paid off one of his staff members because he was making love to this staff members' wife. oh and ensign's parents also put in their money for the payoff. This is true family values!!! meanwhile governor Spitzer has resigned. oh and Sanford ... IS STILL GOVERNOR!!!!! is this admission of guilt or living in parallel universe? This is major denial! thinking that what they've done is probably not that deplorable that they don't need to resign. Yes the acts are wrong but they don't need to resign why?
who is the hypocrite? democrats do not claim that they have a monopoly of moral family values but the republicans have draped themselves with this to get the religious right vote. who's the hypocrite here?
The point is by now conservatives should realize that they don't have a monopoly of morality! So Nick when are you going to realize this?

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 5:28PM

Wealthy,

"[...] old unregulated free market is A LIE!!!"

Another marxist/liberal straw man lie.

No one advocates an UNREGULATED free market.

Try reading the U.S. Constitution, brainiac. It lays out, in clear language, what congress can regulate.

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 5:41PM

Mr. Malvar,

You are the hypocrite!

If you could read English, you would have seen that I wrote, "We hold MOST of them to account."

Larry Craig is not "still" a senator, Einstein. Conservatives are trying to get Sanford to resign. Nixon didn't go to prison like he should have, either.

As a conservative, I'm not going to defend Vitter or Ensign. They should both resign.

See, I'm no hypocrite. But all you can do is point the finger of blame away from your side and towards the right.

Come on, condemn Barney Frank!
Or Bill Clinton. Or the Swimmer Kennedy. Or his pal Chris Dodd. I dare you, hypocrite.

Liberal Reader| 9.10.09 @ 6:43PM

We'll look back at Joe Wilson as the person who tipped the scales Obama's way.

Way to go Joe!

Raoul Ortega| 9.10.09 @ 7:57PM

Eight years of "Chimpy McBushitlerburton" and "Darth Cheney" had no effect on any US policy, but one shout of "You lie!" I supposed to bring ruin to the GOP and victory to The Community-Organizer-in-Chief by causing those highly principled "moderates" to head leftward in reaction. (Reaction being their highest principle...)

Okay, whatever...

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 8:31PM

Mr. Malvar, where are yoooouuuu?!!!

Angel| 9.10.09 @ 9:24PM

Don't think so, Jeremiah/LR; but nice try. Your DNC talking points are wrong again.

Joe Wilson is a hero! GO JOE!!

Angel| 9.10.09 @ 9:28PM

Nick, what about that lying, corrupt thief, Charlie Rangel? Pelosi won't even strip the scum bucket of his chairmanship. Outrageous.

Nicj| 9.10.09 @ 10:30PM

Angel,

We can only hope that Rangel is as arrogant as he appears on TV.

Someone that arrogant has got to have committed more crimes that we don't know about.

Hopefully his wife, or a mistress, will rat him out!

Although, here in Detroit, the people kept electing the same crooked dirtbag as mayor for 20 years.

And even President Reagan's Justice department couldn't get him into court, let alone convict him of anything. They tried though.

Nick| 9.10.09 @ 10:32PM

Marxist Reader,

At least you admit B.O. has totally screwed this up!

That's progress.

Daisy| 9.10.09 @ 11:21PM

Ooooh, Nick. LR/Jeremiah's gonna have his pink panties in a pinch for sure.

Benigno Malvar| 9.11.09 @ 9:27AM

Nick,

let me repeat it again so this time it might get through your thick republican skull,

the republicans and their minions are being called hypocrites because they are calling themselves the moral values/family values party! that is why. Gingrich was having an affair while leading the charge against bill clinton !!!!!!!! but he continues to be respected in the GOP!!!!!! Ensign was also out there deploring the clinton and then what does he do? it does not matter if you deplore that or not! it has nothing to do with what you say idiot! besides talk is cheap.

now about rangel, charge him by all means. with regard to barney frank, he was reelected after the scandal and have been reelected ever since by wide margins. talk to his constituents if you have an issue. let's see if sanford, vitter, and ensign get reelected. and if they do so be it, if their constituents want them represented by hypocrites so be it. oh and guess who was leading the charge to censure and expel barney frank? none other than your idol LARRY CRAIG !!!!!!!! what a revolting revelation!

Swimmer Kennedy? you mean the late Ted Kennedy? have you no decency sir? He is dead.

Appalachian hills of Argentina| 9.11.09 @ 9:33AM

Angel,

which one is the hero?
1. the Joe Wilson who screamed at the president of the united states during the joint session of congress
2. the Joe Wilson who immediately called obama to apologize saying it was just an emotional response
3. The Joe Wilson who is now trying to get contributions from the youtube video of the act for which he apologized? (did he even know why he apologized?

which one of the 3 Joe Wilsons are you referring to? i am confused which one?

Screaming White Guy| 9.11.09 @ 9:44AM

Nick wrote: referring to Rangel
"Someone that arrogant has got to have committed more crimes that we don't know about."

oh so arrogance is now an indicator of commission of crime???!!!!!! I'm trying to wrap my brain around this.

It's so hilarious the way you right wingers argue. It's a comedy show.
Just stay with the name-calling. y'all are good at that.

Nick| 9.11.09 @ 5:25PM

Mr. Malavar,

You write like a 9 year old!

I'm no Republican, I'm a religious, right-wing extremist. Or as we call ourselves, Conservatives. I wouldn't expect someone so ignorant of politics to understand.

And finally, you prove your hypocricy. You can't bring yourself to condemn your liberal pervert heroes, can you? Like that drunken, womanizing, killer known as the Swimmer.

Have you no decency?

LLK| 9.11.09 @ 6:07PM

Back to the issue: Obama is going to pay for healthcare by removing the "waste" from our welfare system. Why hasn't he removed the waste before now?
And, I didn't just mean healthcare for congress and the pres. --how about their retirement?
Obama says healthcare will cost $900 billion--we should be so lucky! Do the math: $900 billion won't touch it.
Again, healthcare is ALREADY free--walk into any public hospital (saw the sign in one the other day) and you CANNOT be denied care. I'm fed up with paying for lazy, do-nothings.
By the way Benito--do you have a job?

LLK| 9.11.09 @ 6:13PM

Sorry Benigno--I misspelled your name. Guess I was distracted by your constant ramblings about affairs, gay lovers, etc. in Congress. Since you started that, what about Obama and Larry Sinclair?
And Ted Kennedy (aka the "Swimmer" ) was so wonderful that at the very least, he left a woman in the river (with whom he was having an affair) and didn't even report it until the next day.

Malcolm Little| 9.12.09 @ 12:56AM

My thoughts on Joe Wilson is that they should throw him out of congress. At a very minimum he shouldn't be reelected. I was very pleased to hear that his opponent received $200,000 that very night in response.

Nick| 9.12.09 @ 1:54AM

Mr. Little,

Sorry, Mr. Wilson has raised over $700,000!

Sandy James| 9.12.09 @ 10:35AM

Grzmlyk: Was that actor friend of yours named R Reagan. I think your early exposure to alzheimers
is proof that it may be contagious. You are the most angry, sad, idotic ideologue that I have ever encountered. Something tells me you listen to talk radio 24-7 or you have Mark Levin piped throughout your house looping 24 hours a day.

YOU HAVE ZERO SOLUTIONS.

Benigno Malvar| 9.14.09 @ 3:54PM

@ Nick

name calling name calling name calling - this is your solution! "religious right-wing extremist" and proud of it. mmm at least i know where you are coming from. wasn't the terrorist Timothy McVae a right wing extremist too? c'mon just admit it. this has nothing to do with obama's policy right. You just hate him BECAUSE HE IS BLACK - and you can't stand it.

By the way, the economic mess we have right now, it really all started with your golden calf - Ronald Reagan - Mr. free hand of the market and let us deregulate eveything. LEt's have a FREE FOR ALL!!!

Benigno Malvar| 9.14.09 @ 4:37PM

LLK said

"Why hasn't he removed the waste before now?" how long has he been in office? can you give him at least 4 years? You gave a baffoon 8 years to create all these mess we're in didn't you?

"Obama says healthcare will cost $900 billion--we should be so lucky! Do the math: $900 billion won't touch it."

Once it goes beyond $900 billion then start complaining. otherwise you shouldn't get in the business of 1-800-psychic!

Again, healthcare is ALREADY free--walk into any public hospital (saw the sign in one the other day) and you CANNOT be denied care. I'm fed up with paying for lazy, do-nothings.

"Again, healthcare is ALREADY free--walk into any public hospital (saw the sign in one the other day) and you CANNOT be denied care. I'm fed up with paying for lazy, do-nothings."

- this is most idiotic ignorant statement I've come across today!!! dude, it is not free. guess what the hospitals raise the prices of other procedures and charge those with private insurance for it!!! so it is not free you fool. you are paying for it if you have private insurance. the price they record is also the list price or non-negotiated price. that's why private insurance is inefficient. those with private insurance end up spending more than they should. Add the profit motive and the need to satisfy stockholders of the publicly traded health care organizations and here comes denial due to preexisting conditions, denials of coverage for many even necessary procedures and rescission. are you aware or understand all of these?

here comes the stereotype...liberals are unemployed!!!! by the way yes i have a fulltime job and another job at night and on saturday to make ends meet.

Benigno MAlvar| 9.14.09 @ 4:41PM

@LLK

kinda like VP Cheney shoots a friend in the face then doesn't report it until the next day? the VP of the United States? Why because he was drunk? amazing how for 8 years we had a president who had a DUI conviction and a VP who has 2 DUI convictions. Both didn't serve when they had a chance but they were foaming in the mouth when it comes to sending soldiers to their death! this doesn't outrage you?