The American Spectator

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 9:43AM

Vadum has only part of the truth.

While ACORN is up to some horrible things with food stamps -- what's next? gas chambers? -- their real intentions are much darker.

See, they want to export inner city squalor and crime to white rural America.

They want every community to enjoy the shootings, drug addiction, and high incarceration rates they've managed to perpetuate in urban neighborhoods throughout America.

Their ultimate goal is complete dictatorial control of America by black people.

Obama's SA is on the march.

Matthew Vadum| 8.7.09 @ 9:54AM

Obviously Liberal Reader has run out of arguments when he/she/it* (can't forget the possibility of a person with sex-reassignment) resorts to the racism innuendo. It's exactly what that scumbag Scott Levenson of ACORN tried to do on the "Glenn Beck Program" a few months ago. Face it my desperate little egghead friend: you guys are getting your heads handed to you right now. It's not over for you, but it's looking mighty bad. The backlash against the statist juggernaut is only just beginning.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 10:18AM

Mr. Vadum,

The Democratic Party is not perfect; I have no doubt it is vulnerable to strong critique.

The larger Liberal (capital L) ambition of the United States requires a vigorous competition of ideas from the left and from the right.

A conservative critique of what is a left of center government is crucial to the health of this country. More importantly, in '10 and '12 the voters will render a more final judgment. That's how it works in this country; the winners try to govern, the losers come back on election day with a better plan. If the voters agree, they're in.

But Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh and people here have a different idea: they think they can get conservatives to HATE Democrats and Obama.

If you call someone a fascist, or a Nazi, you're essentially saying there's no moral problem in shooting them -- let alone no problem in refusing to engage them in proper debate.

It frustrates, intoxicates, and ultimately ruins the civil discourse upon which democratic processes depend.

Now, to be fair, many on the left went to extremes during the Bush years, especially with regard to the war. I opposed these extremes; I spoke against them.

But you and your comrades would use these extremes as justification for the same thing -- although I cannot remember the left having 16 hours a day, every day, of talk radio to call Bush a Nazi.

Be that as it may -- we all feel wronged by the media.

If you don't see an ethical problem with constantly referring to Democrats as "fascists" or "totalitarians," then you've got an impoverished moral imagination, to say the least.

Whatever -- we won't agree to disagree. You think I'm a fascist; you'd probably approve of someone knifing me in the street. I'm an enemy to your country; your followers on this website refer to me as a "traitor" every day.

I wish they could liberate themselves from the frightful coils in which they dwell just long enough to think about what the point of political debate is in the first place. I see it less and less here.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 10:32AM

Or, look at it another way.

The American Psyche over the past 100 years -- if we can imagine it -- has had a variety of real threats and phantoms it imagined were real threats. A short list of these alien, hostile "Others" might include the following:

Communists and totalitarian socialists
Fascists
Racists
Traitors
Terrorists
Illegal Immigrants

Now -- in short order -- you and your comrades have accused Obama of being every one of these things.

Is it possible he's EVERY one of these things?

Or, is the attempt simply to suggest that he must be at least one of these things? (And any one of them is bad enough to qualify as an ENEMY.)

Do you think it's an accident that these things have ALL been predicated of our first black president ("black" being the ultimate figure of the "other" in our history)?

Again, your moral imagination would have to be atrophied, astonished, to think that reasonable, rational, civil political discourse would end up following these kinds of surmise. It's just not possible.

Oldefarte| 8.7.09 @ 11:31AM

Taxpayer funded welfare, food stamps, and ACORN should be eliminated; and the latter should be held accountable to the justice system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pete| 8.7.09 @ 11:52AM

Not EVERY one...

Communist and totalitarian socialists- check
Fascist - check
Racist - check
Traitor - check
Terrorist - nah, just friendly to them.
Illegal Immigrant - probably not.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 12:27PM

Pete --

If Obama -- and Democrats in general -- really are fascists, totalitarian communists, and traitors, why are you and your comrades sitting around on your fat asses typing posts on the Internet?

Why are you not holing up in some outback compound, hoarding weapons and planning your violent overthrow of the Fascist Dictatorship.

It's not like you have an option.

If what you say is true, it is your DUTY to take up arms against it. Anything less would call into question your loyalty to the country.

How could you not rise to the call?

Are you a coward? Or are you -- perhaps -- a double agent, encouraging the quietism and resignation of your compatriots?

If you really believe these things you say, you're WORSE than Obama: you're WORSE than the worst traitors the country has known, since you did not choose to fight. You were too scared, or too weak, or too confused to fight.

I call you cowards -- you, Vadum, Limbaugh. All of you, since you saw the enemies of your country at the door and did nothing but complain, like whiney little girls.

Pete| 8.7.09 @ 12:40PM

I know you are just trying to stir things up...but I will bite anyhow.

What you mention is a last resort, but daily becoming a more real possibility. A brief scan of my expenditures since last November would indeed reveal a sharp uptick in spending on the tools of the 2nd amendment (as you will find nationwide). If it comes to it, I will be ready - as you mention, it is my duty, and I will not shirk it. I hope there is a peacful solution, but with idiots like you out there who are either on the government dole, blind, stupid, or all three, I am not especially confident that there will be one. Now we see your messiah attempting to mobilize his paid off Union thugs to quiet dissent. I fear this could be the catalyst. I hope you and your kind open your eyes before it is too late, but rest assured that if you threaten my family, I will not hesitate. PS - Get bent.

Andrew B| 8.7.09 @ 12:41PM

Liberal Reader--

You say "if you call someone a fascist, or a Nazi, you are essentially saying there's no moral problem in shooting them."

That being the case, I am sure you will want to loudly denounce Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, who has smeared her political opponents (falsely) for brandishing swastikas.

She is not only commiting the infraction you site, but is doing so in a deliberately malicious and knowingly false manner. Will you join me in calling her out for her despicable behaviour?

L. Ross| 8.7.09 @ 12:56PM

Liberal Reader:

For what it is worth, in your first post repeated below, I think you were right on the money.

See, they want to export inner city squalor and crime to white rural America.

They want every community to enjoy the shootings, drug addiction, and high incarceration rates they've managed to perpetuate in urban neighborhoods throughout America.

See, I think that most conservatives would rather see these pathologies eliminated via conservative principles, rather than shared around equally, which seems to be a more liberal concept.

Conservative principles such as being a father to your children, hard work, saving for the future, repsect for the law, and helping your children to attain greater sucess than you yourself achieved would go a very long way to averting these pathologies. However, as long as liberals are running around, telling our urban communities that there is nothing they can do, it's whitey's fault, they will continue down the path you and people like you have laid out for them.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 1:03PM

Andrew B --

You bet.

I didn't post here before last year's election. I did post elsewhere, on a more liberal site.

I always spoke strongly AGAINST calling Bush or Republicans fascists or Nazis -- for the same reasons I said above.

I always spoke AGAINST the idea that Bush had "lied" to get us into the war, although I believe he oversimplified the argument because he feared giving the full set of reasons wouldn't gain popular support.

Still, in an age of nuclear bombs, we have to trust the president in matters of war and peace. And I've always maintained that.

Andrew B| 8.7.09 @ 1:07PM

Liberal Reader,

Thank you for your reply, and for your candor. We disagree on much, but I am glad that we can agree on basic decency. America needs more of that.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 1:09PM

The most important reason not to speak of either party as "fascists" or Nazis is because it's FACTUALLY NOT TRUE.

At some point, we as a country, as a society, have to get back in the habit of saying things that are true; of using language properly; of using words properly.

This country may have gone socialist in the 30s if it weren't for FDR. It may have even gone socialist in the teens. It didn't.

It's not going to, either. And it sure as hell is not fascist, never has been fascist, and never will be fascist.

ANYONE who is claiming otherwise is trying to poison the well; they're trying to DE-LEGITIMIZE political dissent. Ultimately, they're trying to render those on whose behalf DISSENT is most necessary silent and impotent with rage.

The silencing of dissent in this country is being carried out by those who are converting it into entertainment, something to be laughed and hooted at.

As long as DISSENT means some clown yapping about Nazis in a radio studio, it won't mean anything -- not for you or your family.

But if it were serious, sober, and learned, it would mean something important to you and your family.

You can help the cause of true, American dissent by not encouraging it's Rodeo-Clownification, its hyperbolic foolery.

Patriot| 8.7.09 @ 1:13PM

LibReader/Jeremiah is a liberal intellectual who uses words to sway opinion on behalf of Obama and the Union goons in Florida used violence to sway opinion on behalf of Obama.

Two sides of the same coin; both fascist.

Nobama| 8.7.09 @ 1:15PM

We all know WHO the real CLOWN is on this thread.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 1:31PM

Patriot.

Reread what you wrote. I think even you will be able to see how incredibly foolish your claim is.

You write that I am an "intellectual" who "uses words to sway" opinions;

You write that this is another side of the "same coin" from those who use violence.

So ...

Using words = using violence.

Ever read Orwell, Patriot?

KevlarKevin| 8.7.09 @ 1:38PM

Ain't it funny how this Liberal Reader guy never ever ever actually deals with the substance of a post? Always changing the subject. Typical liberal fascist a--hole.

Nancy!| 8.7.09 @ 1:43PM

Fascist liberal distribution of YOUR wealth in action.

Patriot| 8.7.09 @ 2:07PM

Read Orwell? I feel like I'm living it.

I will type this slowly so that you can understand, LR/J. Your democrat party's fascist liberal strategy of persuasion has two components--Intellectuals like you who use pretty words and Union thugs/ACORN who use physical violence like they did yesterday in Florida.

Two sides of the same coin of your strategy of persuasion.

It's like Communism: The Velvet Glove (YOU) and the Iron Fist (AXELROD, EMANUEL, UNION GOONS/ACORN).

As Axelrod's deputy chief of staff, Jim Messina yelled to an audience of democrat lawmakers yesterday, "If you get hit we will punch back TWICE as hard."

Fascist liberal thuggery is on full display for all Americans to see, and it's ugly! We see it, LR/J--quite clearly, regardless of your silly attempts to obfuscate.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 2:14PM

Patriot --

I'm sorry. Your posts are just ridiculous. More black helicopter, Area 51 paranoia.

Listen to yourself, man. (It shouldn't be hard, since you're typing slow.)

You sound deranged.

Patriot| 8.7.09 @ 2:26PM

LOL! As Jack Nicholson so brilliantly shouted, "The truth, the truth, you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

LibReader/Jeremiah, Moron troll, you fascist liberals can't handle the truth; your only retorts are Conspiracy! Black Helicopters!

You just got schooled, baby.

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 2:39PM

Liberal Reader Could I ask your response to the white house asking for 'fishy' messages on healthcare to be brought to their attention.
When combined with
When the Sec Homeland Security sent out notices to police forces identifying petential domestic "right wing terrorists"
What about yesterdays call yesterday to their Union supporters to “hit back twice as hard” followed in on e instance last night by violence on a man passing out flags.
These are rather authoritarian actions when seen together wouldn’t you agree? Maybe not NAZI, certainly facist with a lower case F when seen in the context of the take over and control of so many industries.
I have watched for years as from the house and senate floor members of the house and senate from the liberal side of the isle called conservatives fascists, Nazi, racist and worse.
You, yourself, come to this site on a regular basis throwing around all kinds of vile charges… yes LR calling me a racist is vile. Because someone is conservative they are racist, homophobic, uneducated, fill in the freaking blank… You are wearing very thin with your name calling and then you have the temerity to lecture us… Sorry but your BS will not sell here.
Race is not the be all end all of everything in this country nor has it been. If you wake up every day and look at your fellow man and see first their color or origin that is you problem. If the first thing you see is gender identity, again that is your problem. That is not the lens I use in fact I find that most people who use it are severely limited.
Personally and for most of the people I know the Ones race is a non issue. I do not care that the president is black I do however care whether he is an extreme leftist, bordering somewhere between socialist or Marxist. You and several other trolls come here daily calling names and intentional stirring things up.
For me the hostile “Others” you refer to have nothing to do with race but have everything to do with political philosophy. Pick a word that makes you happy, Progressive, Statist, Socialist, Communist, Liberal. The folks that seek to expand government and limit individual liberty.
I am involved in tea parties. I am actively contacting politicians; I have been involved from early on in this grass roots movement. I will exercise my right to seek redress from my government. I will urge other to do the same. I fear believe our government is completely out of control. The House, the Senate, the entire machinery of the executive branch and the courts. It is disconnected and unresponsive. I will do all I can to preserve this great nation.
I am doing all of these things within the confines of the law and the fine traditions of our great republic.
But like Pete if it comes to last resorts I also claim the rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence and will by whatever means necessary defend and assert those rights.

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 2:46PM

My apology to all for the rant I am just getting extremely tired of LR and his team and their vile name calling followed by their sanctimonious rants that we are bringing down the level of political discourse in this country. I have watched my entire life while these fools have screamed their BS. The last 8 years non-stop in your face temper tantrum. Really getting near the limits of patience.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 3:04PM

Bob --

The Declaration, just so you know, is not permission to violently over throw the United States government.

It does not, it cannot, be given precedence over the Constitution. The Constitution comprehends the Declaration, in other words.

In the Constitution, you are guaranteed enormous power, particularly the power to vote.

I suggest you do that in '10 and '12, when the judgment on the current administration will be handed down by the people.

And there will be a judgment, BECAUSE we do NOT live in a fascist dictatorship.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 3:08PM

I also suggest you visit a library and get out some good books on the following topics:

1. Socialism and Marxism. History and Theory Of.
2. Fascism in Europe in the 20th Century. History Of.
3. Socialism in the United States, History Of.
4. Nazi Germany, History Of.

You need to get better educated on some very important aspects of history.

If you want to interpret this as me being an elitist liberal telling you you are ignorant, so be it.

In order to use these terms in the way you are using them, you'd necessarily have to be ignorant of their meaning and their history.

I suggest you rectify that situation.

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 3:44PM

LR
I am well read on the subjects you list, and am familiar with the theories of socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, as well as their historic expressions in the real world. I have studies the French, American and Russian revolutions in some depth.
I think the fascism parallels are rather striking… understand we are in the early stages. I am not talking about Mussolini at the fall.
I suggest you reread the Declaration again. The rights asserted therein are universal and unalienable. (It means they come from God) They supersede all constitutions. IT declares that all men have the right bordering on responsibility to over throw a tyrannical government.
I intend to use my vote and my voice. (I sincerely fear that we may soon lose those rights.)
I am not advocating overthrow by the way but rather indicating that if all legal means of redress are exhausted I do not rule it out.
Interesting how you could not find the time to respond to the examples I gave at the beginning of my post dealing with repression of free speech.
I think if you consider events in Italy and even in Germany very early on you will see some interesting parallels. I think that had the reaction to early tests been stronger the history of both countries would have been different… much the same as the weak international response to Germany’s early transgressions led to greater and greater adventures and eventually War.
If unchecked how far will they go in trampling free speech? Suppressing dissent?

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 3:52PM

LR
Your snarky f*@king comments really make it difficult to even try to have a reasonable discussion.

You attack and disparage and insult it is most often the starting point of any discussion you enter.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 3:58PM

Bob --

And who will decide that "all legal means of redress are exhausted"?

You? Glen Beck, that towering paragon of legal acumen?

You may join and armed gang that tells itself it is over throwing the government, but it will still be just another armed gang or terrorist organization -- no matter what it's announced intentions.

The Constitution does fulfill the Declaration, and it does supersede it. This is established legal precedent and fact. You cannot, for example, defy the Constitution by appealing to the Declaration.

And while the Declaration has universal claims in it, remember it was a document written for a very particular set of circumstances that are very clearly laid out.

It's not just a rant. It doesn't just say, "We hate big government, and we hate taxes," which is the incoherent and childish message of the Tea Baggers.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 4:05PM

Bob --

I'm attacking and disparaging YOU?

Bob, your arguing that I am a communist and a fascist.

The whole point of my intervention on this retarded website was to plead with you people to stop ruining public discourse by making these kinds of claims.

When you say, 'Democrats are a fascist, racist, traitor, communist party' or whatever, you're effectively saying that I am one of these things.

Those are FIGHTING words, Bob.

You're telling me I'm a traitor; I'm an enemy to my country.

How the hell are we supposed to have a conversation if you insist that these things are true?

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 4:37PM

LR
It is my belief that everyone decides for themselves when all legal means of redress have been exhausted. When the level of frustration reaches a point where the only course of action is to oppose we will have reached that point.
Not sure where the Beck reference comes from, is that just something you throw out to splash a little gas on the fire or are you working from notes?
We disagree on the Declaration and its meaning and its significance.
If you had the ability to engage in a reasoned discussion I would take the time to explain in detail why limited government was established in the constitution, how the government we have now bears no resemblance to that envisioned by the framers. I would be happy to discuss how the central government before Obama had far exceeded its constitutional limits and that Obama has put the centralization on steroids. Unfortunately, I believe you are incapable of such a discussion and therefore would rather not waste my time.
I will close with this thought as it relates to your dismissing the conservatives gathering around the country at various Tea parties. Dismiss them all you wish but if this government continues to take their property and the fruits of their labor, if it takes their fundamental rights to life and liberty as in this healthcare abominating, if it further seeks to silence them and repress their dissent it will see the unbridled wrath of the silent majority. We are the business owners and doers of this society we employ the likes of your sorry ass. We are the folks that get things done, the productive half of this country. We are accustomed to seeing a problem considering the options to solve it and then acting to fix it.

Bob| 8.7.09 @ 4:45PM

LR
Your established precedent fact remarks relative to the Declaration and the Constitution made me laugh. Look at it this way do you think King George felt his position was established precedent and fact? Do you think he thought the law of England superseded our Declaration? How did that work out for him?
If God forbid things in this country so deteriorate that the citizens feel they must exert their unalienable rights. They will have long past given up on resorting to legal precedent and the courts.

Nobama| 8.7.09 @ 4:56PM

LibReader/Jeremiah squeals that those gray haired folks speaking up at the town hall meetings are dangerous and are a threat to our government.

The only violence I've seen has been perpetrated by you freakin' liberal goons, jackass.

Liberal Reader wants us Conservatives to shut up, bend over and grab our ankles. Ain't gonna happen this time, troll--people are sick of your fascist crap.

SoCon| 8.7.09 @ 4:59PM

Fascist lib troll hurls sly, filthy insults at us and expects us to brown nose him in return. Good luck with that, moron.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 5:59PM

Bob --

There's no real room for debate on the Declaration issue; I'd say it was pretty firmly resolved in the 1860's.

Nobama| 8.7.09 @ 7:55PM

No, dear LibReader/Jeremiah--haven't you heard? The Declaration is a "LIVING" Document, kind of like the Constitution, right? It's what you fascist liberals have been saying for years, right?

The Declaration, like the Constitution, morphs and changes with the times. Times have changed, right?

What's been firmly resolved is that you leftists are on the wrong side of history once again and the American people will punish you for your treachery. Just wait.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 7:59PM

Nobama --

OK I'll wait.

I'm not impressed by or afraid of your threats.

No one is.

Democrats are Fascist Thugs| 8.7.09 @ 9:13PM

Sure you are--you just wet yourself, troll.

Besides, I didn't beat the snot out of you like your Union goons did to our protester in Missouri, fascist.

"If they hit us, we'll punch back twice as hard" --Axelrod. Worthless thug democrats.

Liberal Reader| 8.7.09 @ 10:27PM

Well that's a very insightful and thoughtful post, Democrats are Fascist Thugs.

It's great that a person can always come here for scintillating and illuminating debate on politics. With people like you out there, I have no doubt that the great marketplace of ideas will continue to offer a dynamic, creative, and enlightened forum in which new ideas can flourish.

So eloquent are you, in fact, that I am moved to further praise; to say that this is the wisest, most informed, most philosophical set of remarks on politics that I have ever read. You really are a philosopher, Democrats are Fascist Thugs. Your acumen is a little intimidating, but your humane concern for educating your fellow citizens dispels all anxiety and doubt.

Like Erasmus -- yea! like Socrates -- before you, your plain spoken wisdom drives off pretentious fools and gladdens the hearts of those who love truth. Your pith, your mirth, your life-affirming gaze wins you the laurel, and the respect of men follows your wheresoever you go.

Nobama| 8.7.09 @ 10:59PM

You little slug. You sit in front of your computer smugly astroturfing your fellow Americans with your smart, witty and disingenuous prose while your boss sends out your liberal fascist goons to split lips and break the bones of those who oppose your evil policies.

You're worse than those brutish meatheads who swing their fists at other Americans because you don't get your hands dirtied or bloodied; you just sit tight and hide behind your computer.

Worm.

Liberal Reader| 8.8.09 @ 12:18AM

And you Nobama: a hit, a palpable hit. A witty riposte; a most perspicacious observation, colored by the most exuberant turn of phrase. Lucky am I, to be in the company of noble minds.

Nobama| 8.8.09 @ 12:48AM

I don't believe you're a veteran. But I guess you could be a liberal vet like John (do you know who I am?) Kerry. Both of you have thrown your fellow Americans under the bus, both of you are self-serving traitors.

KevlarKevin| 8.8.09 @ 2:37AM

Liberal Reader, you are a goddamn traitor. Screw you. Go f*** yourself. Go to DailyKos. You belong there. Idiot.

Oliver| 8.8.09 @ 3:15PM

Matthew Vadum is a real scumbag. But it's nice that Am Spec thinks that replying to commentators by calling them transsexuals is par for the course. Gosh, what a sophisticated, professional website you guys have made.

I didn't even have the heart to read the rest of the comments.

NO OBAMACARE DEATH PANELS| 8.8.09 @ 5:13PM

Oliver, good thing you didn't read the rest of the comments--they would have REALLY knocked your nasty numb nuts out of the park.

A professional website like the masturbatory, stromboli website of your fellow liberal pervert, Jesse Griffen? Now unemployed--LOL!

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