The American Spectator

Mary| 6.19.09 @ 5:22PM

I thought it was important to bring his voice into the debate.

It was; you shouldn't doubt that.

I’m as conflicted about engagement/isolation as I am about waterboarding and EITs. When I saw Fakhravar on television, I was glad he was here and wondered to myself what could be said to the Iranians who are protesting that would strengthen them?

Maybe some parts of the region are excited and ready to investigate what lies outside of their world. A world in which they really aren't allowed to think. Imagine what it must be like to be acquainted with all manner of technological advance and gadgets, yet remain in that dark, cultural, medieval dungeon?

The farther you get from WWII, the larger and larger Bonheoffer becomes as Christian Man. He’s Lincolnian in stature. Maybe even greater. Iran needs a Bonhoeffer.

MattSwartz| 6.19.09 @ 5:46PM

Mary,
Don't hold your breath. Christians account for seven-tenths of one percent of Iran's population. There can never be a Muslim Bonhoeffer, because he was markedly Christian in his motivations, loyalties, thought processes, and ideals. All religions are not equal. One of them is better than the others. That one made western civilization (with all it's benefits) possible, and such civilization is not reproducible outside of it's orbit.

Mary| 6.19.09 @ 6:23PM

Matt-

I don't think it's likely, but not for the reasons you suggest, will all due respect to Christianity and its contributions to Western Civilization. Its contributions stand and were built upon a foundation that includes the Hebraic, the Greco and the Roman.

Bonheoffer was a complex and very intelligent man who went to meet Christ with the heart of lion and the face of an angel. Judaism is to Christianity as God is to Adam, when he breathes life into his nostrils.

Islam is where Christianity was in the 14th Century. Christianity may not have been quite as brutal, but not by much. They were no slugs when it came to ecclesial terror. And a very early picture of the Moslem, per Steve Runciman, is not that of today's Wahabbist (sp?).

If I had to give one reason for my agnosticism that reason would be that Christianity did not let me think.

MattSwartz| 6.19.09 @ 7:00PM

Mary,
I'm right there with you when it comes to the fact that Western Civilization is not a wholly Christian accomplishment, but I persist in thinking that it could not have grown in other soil, and here's why.

Christianity (along with Judaism before it) has an anti-authoritarian narrative quality that none of the monotheistic religions can match, and that the polytheistic ones can approach only through the irony of ridicule. Prophets habitually confront Kings, and their criticisms are recorded as having come from the hand of God Himself. I see no congruent stream in the Koran, nor in the later, post-Christian Jewish sacred writings.

If world religions did not differ profoundly in how they depict the unseen and the eternal, there wouldn't be different ones. When a Muslim disagrees with me about whether or not the Trinity is possible, or a Jew on the issue of Jesus as Messiah, or a Hindu on the subject of reincarnation and the nature of the soul, what they are saying is that world religions differ in matters other than age.

The problem of how to think freely within the confines of creedal Christianity is an old and serious one. I view them as the walls of a house, but there for good reason and serving a good purpose, but also windowed, open to the outside world. What I see through these windows consistently makes me thankful to be on the side of the wall that I am.

Sean| 6.19.09 @ 7:02PM

Faced with a similar situation at home how much different would our own governments response be to the protesters? I have seen people get beat down by police that were being peaceful. I could imagine our own government using lethal force against our own populace that act the way the Iranian opposition does and what they say about their president would have you thrown in jail here also.

Also what evidence do we have that the elections are fraudulent. Independent pollsters pretty much confirm the results. I think staying out of this is the way to go. Let the Iranians sort this out themselves. If it builds to critical mass they will overturn their government.

Andrew| 6.19.09 @ 8:56PM

Yay! A normal(-ish) blog post on the Spectator! This is almost unprecedented. Whether you want Obama to denounce the Mullahs more firmly or not, you have to ask yourself... what is our ultimate goal here?

Mousavi has been Twittering continually for the past few days: thus far, he has asked for support from the U.N., from the civilians of the world, and from Google (he requested that they change their homepage to green in solidarity). But so far, he has NOT asked for additional support from the U.S. And neither have the other Iranian Twitter feeds that I've read. ...Why? Because additional support from us would give the regime an excuse to crack down even harder on the rebels.

...But putting that aside, what do we WANT here? If Obama pledges our support to the rebels, then what? Two possible outcomes.

1) The Mullahs use this as an excuse to shoot, wound, arrest the rebels, in which case we have to intervene.

2) The rebels think that they HAVE our support, and step up their revolt... inciting a harsher crack-down from the Mullahs. Unless the rebels can get the support of the army, they'll be screwed, and we'll... have to intervene.

3) Nothing happens. (Highly doubtful.)

...And by intervene, I mean "invade." Can we do that? Can we fight THREE wars at once? We can't help the rebels by bombing Iran... that'll accomplish exactly nothing. So we'll have to invade... a country of 70 million people that is the size of Alaska. That's what we've have to do. It's not possible for us right now.

I want nothing more than for the people of Iran to gain their freedom. I think that the regime that they live under is pure evil. And I'm a moderate Democrat, by the way. And I think Obama wants the same things that I do. But we CAN'T invade. We don't have the money; we don't have the troops. If we could do it, and we could stop the mullahs, and not a lot of innocent people would be hurt, then I'd be all for invading. But it's not possible. We don't have the capability.

The best hope for the Iranian people is to continue their non-violent protest and hope that the regime crumbles. If they keep up their protests, hopefully the army will come to their side. That's what we all want. I hope and pray that it works out for them.

And may I restate that it is a breath of fresh air to read this blog by Mr. Klein. No, I don't agree with him. But he stated his case AND managed to acknowledge the position of his critics. As far as the Spectator is concerned, that's the freakin' Age of Enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. I'll take what I can get. To paraphrase a much wiser man: "Change comes trickling slow; it comes down bit by bit."

Mary| 6.19.09 @ 9:26PM

Matt,

I don't take issue with much of what you've written, and I'm certainly no expert on Islam.

I think a few of Nietzsche's observations about Christianity were correct. One of which was his observation that St. Paul's God is a negation of God, and the other that Christianity can often be an assault on the natural life of man on behalf and in the service of his immortal life.

I can't say that I'm glad to be outside the walls, but that's mainly because generations of my ancestors remained inside them and hoped I would too. But I'm so very glad to be able to think freely, to have Christianity, or more accurately, the RCC out of my head and arranging my thoughts. I'm not constituted in such a way to thrive so walled, and many others aren’t either. And if I’m right, Christianity will continue to bleed bodies and souls. You need some new theologians because for all your greatness, your God, in many ways, remains human to a degree that defies belief and at times can seem monstrous.

I've been reading Kirk's Conservative Mind and I find I'm shedding as much as I'm taking in. Though the phrase didn’t originate with him, I have no desire to stand athwart history yelling Stop. Kirk quotes Coleridge who writes of the doom of a society whose State is unmoored from religious principles and affections, and he notes that’s true regardless of whether the religion is true or not. I was surprised to read that admission. For many people it very much matters if it’s true. In that admission lies the reason for the Reformation, and all these centuries later, a rejection of Christian dogma that grows year by year.

You’re right to bring up the Trinity. To many Moslems the Trinity represents a terrible heresy and a completely emasculated God. In his History of the Crusades, Runciman noted that even in the 7th C the effects of the ecclesiastical battles over Trinitarian doctrine could still be felt and remained influential.

Christians were once in the vanguard of all pursuits. I don’t think that’s true anymore, and I think that has a lot to do with those walls you wrote of. I love history but I don’t want to be a slave to it, and whether something is true or not makes all the difference in the world.

In the Gospel of St. Luke that’s read on Christmas day, the message from God delivered by the angels to the shepherds was, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” Until the seamless, indisputable truth is found, I’m going with St. Luke.

Mary| 6.20.09 @ 4:21PM

Excerpt fron this excellent read:

"Raised on a diet of mostly Western thought that the creation of the dictatorial Islamic Republic has only amplified, Iranians have had quite a bit of democratic conditioning, that prelude to representative government that "realists" believe a people must experience before they can handle democracy. As Khosrokhavar revealed in his astonishing book Avoir vingt ans au pays des ayatollahs ("To Be Twenty in the Land of the Ayatollahs"), Western ideas--especially feminism and the right of individuals to define themselves--are more powerful today in the deeply conservative holy city of Qom than they were 30 years ago. Khamenei began to realize in the 1990s what Khomeini instinctively knew from a richer understanding of Islamic law and the human condition: A majority of Muslims can do the wrong thing if given a chance.

Khamenei acted so crudely and rashly on June 12 because he'd already seen this movie. What's happening in Iran now is all about democracy, about the contradictory and chaotic bedfellows that it makes, about the questioning of authority and the personal curiosity that it unleashes. Khamenei knows what George H.W. Bush's "realist" national security adviser Brent Scowcroft surely knows, too: Democracy in Iran implies regime change. Where Iranians in the 1990s could try to play games with themselves--be in favor of greater democracy but refrain from saying publicly that the current government was illegitimate--this fiction is no longer possible. Khamenei has forced Mousavi and, more important, the people behind him into opposition to himself and the political system he leads. Unless Mousavi gives up, and thereby deflates the millions who've gathered around him, a permanent opposition to Khamenei and his constitutionally ordained supremacy has now formed. Like it or not, Mousavi has become the new Khatami--except this time the opposition is stronger and led by a man of considerable intestinal fortitude."

In case link is a dud: http://tinyurl.com/nwvngt

Angel| 6.22.09 @ 12:12AM

Ultra cool exchange, Matt/Mary. I understand your plight, Mary--I also was raised strict Roman Catholic and I chafed under my parents' old world interpretation of God.

As I've gotten older, I've (gag!) evolved within the framework of my spirituality--Matt expresses my perspective perfectly. Beautiful, Matt.

Mary, you are a good person, God will help you find your way; don't fret. He's always there, regardless of our imperfect human nature. I think you're just throwing off your parents' religious perspective because you felt it was too confining. Good for you! Regardless, God will always love you.

God's blessings to you.

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