The American Spectator

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 7:02AM

This is really an important subject and debate and many people are open to and desirous of learning from Officer Rittgers and men like him.

We citizens are dependent on their wisdom and good judgment.

This debate doesn't seem to be going very far because each side will or cannot admit what it needs to admit.

I'm not sure that I believe torture doesn't work. Senator McCain, in his acceptance speech, said "they broke me." Maybe I'm reading too much into that statement. I wish Jeremiah Denton would write about this, at length and in detail. I trust him and I think it would be really helpful.

I didn't sleep for 3 nights after I read When Hell Was In Session.

What we need to hear from the opposing camps is honest talk.

IOW, those who prescribe EITs should say up front; "our primary goal is saving American lives. That's not an exact science and can grow very ugly. EITs work and if President Obama would release the documents being requested in this regard, we could show you what we mean. And then you could decide if the information we gathered and the threats we averted were worth it."

The side that says we do not torture, we have never tortured, torture has never worked and it will be our undoing have to be honest enough to say the following: "Torture does not work, and even if it did work, we cannot ever use it, ever !and remain who we are. I know you don't want to hear that because you fear for your safety which we understand and which we will do our best to secure. But we must have the courage to admit and accept that even if we lose large parts of Cities or whole Cities we can climb back from that; our values, along with gathering the best intelligence our money and efforsts can buy, will eventually defeat our enemies as we rebuild what has been destroyed. This sacrifice may never be one we have to seize or make, but if we do, we should do it willingly, knowing we remain moral Americans.

The ending of Rear Admiral Denton's book is surreal as he recounts how one of his NV torturers gave him a nicely packaged gift of tea just before being released.

The NVA guerillas lived on just handfuls of rice for extended periods of time. They were defending their homeland. I worked with a young man for Laos, who swam the Mekong to Thailand at 15 years of age to escape conscription, which consisted of some official showing up at your door and thrusting a rifle in your hand.

We used to eat lunch together often. His name is Kham. He used to bring veritable feasts. We were born just a few days apart. After that swin it was 29 years before he saw his mother again. You should have seen her face in the pictures he brought back.

The Vietnam war, from their perspective reminds me of our own Revolutionary war. You can't occupy forever and you can't quell insurrection forever either.

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 7:09AM

Make that, after that swim.

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 7:35AM

This is a good piece, despite some inevitable incoherence:

If terrorist forces were successfully detonating a large thermonuclear warhead somewhere within the continental United States every 12 – 18 months, and waterboarding captured combatants offered a realistic possibility of stopping this, I would reluctantly, though immediately, support its use. I strongly suspect that about 99% of Americans would agree, as would Roosevelt and Root, if we could ask them.

This also doesn’t mean that I think waterboarding is always wrong. What should a U.S. citizen, military or civilian, do if faced with a situation in which he or she is confident that a disaster will occur that can only be avoided by waterboarding a captured combatant? Do it, and then surrender to the authorities and plead guilty to the offense. It is then the duty of the society to punish the offender in accordance with the law. We would rightly respect the perpetrator while we punish him. Does this seem like an inhuman standard? Maybe, but then again, I don’t want anybody unprepared for enormous personal sacrifice waterboarding people in my name.

But consider, not a theoretical scenario of repeated nuclear strikes on the United States, or a tactical “ticking time bomb” scenario, but the real situation we face as a nation. We have suffered several thousand casualties from 9/11 through today. Suppose we had a 9/11-level attack with 3,000 casualties per year every year. Each person reading this would face a probability of death from this source of about 0.001% each year. A Republic demands courage – not foolhardy and unsustainable “principle at all costs”, but reasoned courage – from its citizens. The American response should be to find some other solution to this problem if the casualty rate is unacceptable. To demand that the government “keep us safe” by doing things out of our sight that we have refused to do in much more serious situations so that we can avoid such a risk is weak and pathetic. It is the demand of spoiled children, or the cosseted residents of the imperial city. In the actual situation we face, to demand that our government waterboard detainees in dark cells is cowardice.

Eric Dondero| 5.22.09 @ 8:36AM

Bandow, and the otherwise fine gentleman at Cato, are letting their Girlie Man sides get the best of them.

Bandow is an Army Vet. I'm a Navy Vet. He ought to know better. He seems to have forgotten the rigorous training that we Military guys went through in Boot Camp and Training, even getting gassed in a Chamber for 10 minutes. (For us Navy guys at Gitmo).

If waterboarding is "torture," than why not Heavy Metal music? College hazing pranks? Water balloon fights? Dodge ball?

You start going down this road, and there's no stopping the PC Cops. They'll outlaw everything deemed "too masculine."

Drider| 5.22.09 @ 9:03AM

I have to disagree with the waterboarding being a form of torture from the get go.

Enhanced interrogation comes in many forms from standing in odd positions for extended periods of time, sleep deprivation, open handed slaps etc..etc...etc.
All, provide certain degrees of discomfort and all are non lethal or permamently damaging.Water boarding falls within these same premises, as well as we use them on our own troops as a form of training to prepare them for what "may" occur.

Torture is an entirely different animal of which I need no go into detail about, if people cannot see thee difference of a power drill being used on a human eye and a carefully monitored water board session with both mental and physical medical teams standing by, then it is futile to continue the conversation on actual torture.

Te fact is that those leaders who are no responsible for seeing to the safety of American citizens seem to be more interested in scoring political points as opposed to the laser like focus they should have on National Security.

Obama fails at this point being it is obvious he wants the points from the middle being the left has nowhere else to go and he knows it and seems to risk National security to aquire said political points and Cheney failed along with Bush in getting across the reasoning in what they had to do during their time in office, hence...This speech from Cheney should have been the type of speech given throughout their term.

Ellis Wyatt| 5.22.09 @ 9:09AM

The torture argument is a side show. Nobody is advocating torture and to my knowledge the US has not tortured anyone. In the instances of abuse, such as Abu Garib (sp?) the rule of law that guides this country, and allows us to possess our moral authority, has stepped in and administered justice.

On a side note, Obama will be smarting after the spanking he received yesterday. The last thing this administration needs is Dick Cheney making Obama look like such a naive fool. Obama owns national security now and any misstep will be disastrous not only for the country, but also for the political future of Obama and his leftist comrades.

Ran| 5.22.09 @ 9:35AM

The worth of Rittgers' views would be enhanced if Special Forces were required to perform info collection from prisoners in the field. Are they, or are prisoners processed elsewhere?

Further, there are EIT's, there is discomfort, there are mind-games, drugs, deprivations, warm beer, there is torture that produces no long term harm. There is heavy torture that harms, causes excruciating pain, maims and even kills. There is sadism and there are techniques that get reliable data. Thus when Rittgers says no to "torture," just what exactly is it he (and others) rejects?

Then there's the notion that America is seen as "the Good Guy" by anyone - anyone at all - in this fight. Hell, even our own President doesn't see it that way. I believe that we're alone and nearly universally reviled. The only reputation we must protect is that we are not to be messed with. We don't need to be seen as the "good guy." We need to be seen as the guy it would be really, really stupid to threaten. That reputation is the only reputation that can keep us safe.

My views... I'm for polite questions over a cold beer, EIT's and even full-blown sadistic death-as-a-result torture - whatever works on a particular subject. To dispel any notion that I'm even vaguely "moral" on the issue of war and intelligence, let it be clear that any individual who volunteers to threaten my family, my life, my liberty, Country or my Constitution has signed away all "rights" and all expectations of a happy future. I truly give not a damn what anyone thinks of me for this opinion.

I don't buy this notion that it's "legal" to shoot-to-kill in a fire-fight but that if we capture an enemy he suddenly has quarter and "rights".

Mary, forgive the tone, it's not aimed at you... I take umbrance with the conclusion:"It is the demand of spoiled children, or the cosseted residents of the imperial city. In the actual situation we face, to demand that our government waterboard detainees in dark cells is cowardice." Bullshit, "cowardice."

Firstly, they aren't merely "detainees"... they are people who's intent was to destroy your life, your beliefs and cut your children's heads off doing it. And mine.

More... Our forces volunteer to risk their lives and risk being dragged dead through the streets. These are the very same men and women who come from those imperial cities. It takes valor and courage to risk all to protect the sensitivities of those who spit on them as "baby killers" or as that jack-ass calls them, "cosseted" "cowards."

This isn't a debate. It isn't a football game. It is an existential war of real life and death. Our enemies - religious and political - want to end our way of life, destroy our values and kill every single one of us if that what it takes. And here we are dithering over whether water-boarding is moral.

Mr. Bandow, Mr. Dondero, sirs - Thank you for your service.

BD57| 5.22.09 @ 9:40AM

My only serious disagreement with Rittgers is on this:

"Torture has been embraced by politicians ..."

As far as I can tell, that simply isn't true.

Bush Administration political opponents have accused the Bush 43, Cheney, et al. of 'embracing torture', a charge they have rejected in every instance - Cheney quite forcefully.

From the beginning, this subject has been used by Democrats as a club to beat up Republicans politically - concern about policy has run a distant, "you can barely see it on the horizon" second.

It would be a far different debate if Democrats were saying

"We were briefed on these things in 2002 & 2003, and at that time, under those circumstances, we supported their use for the hard cases possessing vital intelligence information. With the passage of time, we've become convinced we were wrong - the circumstances of the time didn't justify use of the techniques we'd supported."

But, of course, it's better to feign outrage and accuse your opponents of being the Marquis de Sade.

Austin Scott| 5.22.09 @ 10:28AM

"You can't occupy forever and you can't quell insurrection forever either. "

What tosh. Of course you can. Don't see much chance of the Welsh driving the English back to the Continent, do we? White people in the US overwhelmed by resurgent Native Americans ? Arabs swept out of North Africa? You just have to do it right. May not be pretty, however.

NavyBrat| 5.22.09 @ 10:28AM

Ran. Right on, man! Thank you for putting into words what I've felt about this for some time. I agree 1000%.

James| 5.22.09 @ 10:35AM

Mary, I was mildly tortured, and my right hand is still a little sore. My country mistreated returning Vietnam era veterans, and I haven't forgotten.

You wrote if a soldier is confident that a prisoner's information is important enough to save thousands of lives, he/she should break the law and water board a prisoner. Then turn himself/ herself in for punishment. The courts would respect the soldier while inflicting punishment. I wouldn't water board or do anything else against the law. If people died because I failed to risk my future to an uncertain justice system and fickle human nature, so be it.

MattSwartz| 5.22.09 @ 10:56AM

I don't see how waterboarding couldn't be torture. Inflicting pain and fear (terror, actually, since they panic and think they will die, it's a human reflex) to get results from those you are interrogating is the very definition of torture.

I am happy that we aren't degraded enough yet to be okay with the kind of treatment that the NVA gave to McCain (although I didn't hear that much outrage here about rape and sexual torture in Abu Ghraib), but that isn't the issue.

The issue is treating people wrongly and saying that it's okay because they're at war with you. Well, if they're really at war with you, there are rules to govern that. If they're civilians, then you simply don't know for sure what they are, and you have to treat them as such until after you've convicted them at trial . That's how justice works in countries that respect human rights.

MattSwartz| 5.22.09 @ 11:15AM

A Baptist Minister lays out very clearly the slippery slope that we start down when we permit torture, along with the moral ruination that lies therein.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance172.html

I would rather be dead than to live because somebody (maybe innocent, maybe not) was tortured to save my life. It is insulting and unhuman, and I face my maker after this, and his standards for humanity differ markedly from Dick Cheney's.

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 11:28AM

Mary, forgive the tone, it's not aimed at you... I take umbrage with the conclusion:"It is the demand of spoiled children, or the cosseted residents of the imperial city. In the actual situation we face, to demand that our government waterboard detainees in dark cells is cowardice." Bullshit, "cowardice."

Ran, I know, and James, I didn’t explain myself as I should have.

The reason I think Manzi's piece is worthwhile is that he'll actually admit where his logic has to lead. I resent the posturing on this issue more than I can say. The president retains the right to use all of these EITs, and still he preens and quibbles. I’m shocked at what passes for “soaring and brilliant” rhetoric. I could just wretch! I’m not of an age or disposition where I can get past this lack of quality. We’re a society dedicated to marketing obsolescence and nothing shows that more than the foaming vapidity of this president.

I'm much more offended by what I think is Manzi’s incoherence, when he writes:

What should a U.S. citizen, military or civilian, do if faced with a situation in which he or she is confident that a disaster will occur that can only be avoided by waterboarding a captured combatant? Do it, and then surrender to the authorities and plead guilty to the offense. It is then the duty of the society to punish the offender in accordance with the law. We would rightly respect the perpetrator while we punish him. Does this seem like an inhuman standard?

All of a sudden when the percentage of potential dead increases to the point not many can be sure they’re outside of, he's for the procedure. He wants lives saved and the prudent and brave to bear the brunt of punishment for that necessary deed.

I do think waterboarding is a sort of torture. Senator McCain thinks it is too. I know that's not dispositive in and of itself; it just causes me to pause. I can see why they expose our boys to it in preparation for captivity.

I'll be frank; a Nation can't survive the scenario that Manzi outlines -a 9/11 every year. I'm amazed that he thinks one can. How can you know anything about history and believe such a thing can be?

You look around. Look at Michigan. Look at California. Look at NYS. Look at our own debt, and our soon-to-be iffy credit rating.

We’ll be lucky if can defend ourselves at all. And I wouldn’t necessarily look for the ticking bomb more than I’d look for a spreading plague. The only thing that still makes me a bit more nervous about the first is that those who hit us on 9/11 want to be able to view triturated bodies, but who knows, maybe buboes would work just as well.

The inability to recognize that the politicization of attempts to keep us safe is very detrimental seems to me to be an enormous act of self-loathing. I think it bodes very ill for the Country, and I’m so very glad for VP Cheney and his courage. He defends himself well, and he has every right to do just that. And it’s not unthinkable to me that he could find himself on trial, while Obama retains the right to enforce EIT.

I’m conflicted, I know. And James, please don’t misinterpret my first comment as neglecting to be mindful of our Vietnam soldiers. The real point of writing of Kham was to illustrate that no matter what happened there, he chose to come here, and I was glad to have him as a co-worker and fellow immigrant. That’s the difference between Germany, Italy, Japan and America. I may have even eaten pigeon, who the hell knows? My mother said that during WW II time, they were delicious. Kham viewed war and the world somewhat like Ran, and maybe you too.

God bless.

Old Texican| 5.22.09 @ 11:37AM

Aww Matt Swartz!

Please don't embarras yourself further.

I don't know where you make your home, but if it is inside a country that your service men and women and assorted helpers, (CIA), died on a battlefield to preserve, then by your reasoning...
YOU SHOULD GO KILL YOURSELF...TODAY!

Getting blown up by a grenade is torture in your reasoning...so is shooting someone on the field of battle...or bombing people...from airplanes or from EIDs.
Well, every free country in the world has done those things, and you live off the fat of that land.
Your computer is paid for by their deaths, and their doling out deaths to enemies.

Bottom line, IDIOT, HARMLESSLY FRIGHTENING A MAN IS NOT TORTURE!

Scott| 5.22.09 @ 12:08PM

I like creating new forms of interrogation although variations of old ones:

1) Placing Ladies Panties on the heads of terrorists. Then Photographing that scene claiming that we will put this picture on the Internet for millions of jihads and everyone else to see. Talk about stopping jihadist recruiting in its tracks.

Think of how inhumane that would be perceived?

2) Make them take baths and showers with soap three times per day. This is absolutely against Koranic verse and would essentially frighten Jihads to a point where they could not even think about ripping the cord to their suicide bomb loaded vests.

The ACLU would have conniptions over this wouldn’t they?

3) Sharing their prison cells with a “single” Caterpillar. Then tell them that an additional caterpillar will be added to their cells each day until they tell us what they know.

I can hear the liberals screaming at the top of their self-righteous lungs “We are TORTURERS” we are violating Geneva’s conventions.

4) Then we top it all off with audio and video recordings of Barack Obama speeches playing non-stop in their prison cells.

The progressive elite intellectuals will call this “overdosing them on enlightenment” and create new laws out of whole cloth to prevent it.

Then if we feel that they’ve complied with everything we’ve asked them we reward them with this:

Get a Hollywood star (Sean Penn) dressed up to like Osama Bin Laden having sex with a goat on DVD that they can watch as many times as they like.

MattSwartz| 5.22.09 @ 12:13PM

Texican,

Do you actually not know the difference between war and torture? That's what it looks like, that, or else a propensity to like everything the government does, so long as it's suitably violent.

Would you abort babies to quell the "terrorist threat"? Why not?

My computer was paid for by my work. I respect soldiers for what they've done, but you've never proven that torture (and that is what waterboarding is, everybody agreed on that until roughly 2001) has done anything positive for this country.

You want me to give the government a blank check to do whatever they want, and I say no. We're a government of laws, not men, or at least we would be if certain people didn't think torture was a magic talisman to keep them safe from bad people and the things they do. That is about as childish a reaction to world events as I could imagine.

Ran| 5.22.09 @ 12:26PM

Mary... Mr Antle ought to hire you for posts at TAS.

Hey, James! Heads-up! Mary is a keeper.

Eric Dondero: Here's Michael Ledeen's post on the Cheney v Obama situation. Ledeen, too, understands the meaning of War.

Ran| 5.22.09 @ 1:10PM

"We're a government of laws, not men, or at least we would be if certain people didn't think torture was a magic talisman to keep them safe from bad people and the things they do." Bloody right that that is about as childish a reaction to world events as one could imagine.

Only fear prevents attacks, sir. Not love, not kumbaya, not "respect", but cold fear. Only genuine fear for the mission and the life and the costs. If the fear of EIT's such as those that pulled the LAX attack out of K-S-M isn't enough, then fear of the torture and death itself would be enough. It's the leaders such as K-S-M who know they're the high value targets. Fortunately, EIT's are proven to work. Fortunately, fear works. But hey! If earning our enemy's love and kumbaya and "respect" will do the job, then let's try.

Beware: When winning hearts and minds fails, splattering them is the only remaining option. [Tip o' the hat to IMAO.]

James| 5.22.09 @ 1:19PM

Thanks, Mary for clarifying. I agree with Ran. You are "a keeper. " I think water boarding was declared not torture as long as no injury was intended. In any event, according to a dictionary definition of torture, I believe water boarding occupies a twilight zone between abuse and torture. If water boarding is torture, it should occupy a continum separating from severe forms. It should not be linked with drills and gouging out of eyes.

Don't knock pigeons. I grew up on a farm, and we ate pigeons my brother and I shot. They were delicious, rather like chicken.

MattSwartz| 5.22.09 @ 1:45PM

Convincing the worthies of this board that torture is wrong seems to be just as fruitless as attempting to convince pro-aborts of their error, and I have to leave for work, so I'm out, but I will leave this.

This guy also opposes torture, and also for Christian reasons. Is he also a hippie?

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1397

Daisy| 5.22.09 @ 2:47PM

I thought waterboarding WASN'T torture. Is it or isn't it? Is a definitive answer possible or is this a circular argument? No matter how much I read about it, there never seems to be a resolution. Any help?

James| 5.22.09 @ 3:45PM

Daisy, it depends on how one defines torture and abuse. I don't think water boarding is torture, but it is a subjective call.

More importantly, has water boarding provided information which saves lives? We don't know for certain because though Obama released documents describing our interrogation methods, he has not released the results. For that reason, I have no opinion on whether or not we use it.

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 4:22PM

Happy Memorial Day to everyone!

I’m in the U.S because of boys who liberated but never occupied Italy. They saved the Vatican from sure destruction. We could use an Urban III right now. Isn’t there a miter or something he left behind?

Pope Benedict took President Bush into the Tower of St. John. That’s a big deal.

I never thought Lettermen was very funny. I’m a Carson girl. Nobody can take his place. I stopped watching after he retired.

I’m not going all wobbly and poor England, but, this is areally good performance.

Ran, blessings once again. God bless all of our servicemen, near and far. And James, a special God bless you to you. I’m going to ask my Mom if her Italian pigeon tasted “rather like chicken” too. ;)

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 4:24PM

Don't know why link was a dud; try this: http://tinyurl.com/pmk6js.

Daisy| 5.22.09 @ 4:35PM

It depends on who gets to set the premise? So, there is no definitive answer? Results are another matter--I do believe that waterboarding was very effective--precisely because of the fact that Obama HASN'T released the pertinent documents, (very deceitful). I don't want to be a part of barbarism, but considering the fact that I live near Los Angeles and my daughter attended USC and has worked in Downtown Los Angeles during the last six years, I am exceedingly grateful to President Bush, VP Cheney and all of the men and women who have protected us in the years after 9/11. It's very personal to me.

Mary| 5.22.09 @ 4:39PM

Speaking of England and great music, check this out for some nostalgia.

That's one of the reasons they're the Beatles. All American made, really.

bobo| 1.10.10 @ 9:57PM

This is really an important subject and debate and many people are open to and desirous of learning from Officer Rittgers and men like him
nike outlet
adidas outlet

kiki| 1.10.10 @ 10:09PM

all star shoes
nike outlet