For the first time since Gallup began asking the question in
1995, more Americans now identify themselves as pro-life than
pro-choice, by a
51 percent to 42 percent margin. Certainly, there should be a
note of caution about the survey since some people may define the
term "pro-life" a lot differently than others. A minority of the
population stakes out the absolutist positions, with 23 percent
saying abortion should be illegal in all circumstances, and 22
percent saying it should be legal in all circumstances; by
contrast, 53 percent of those polled say that it should be
allowed "only under certain circumstances." That leaves a wide
range of possibilities. Does that mean they think abortions
should be allowed during the first trimeste? Only in cases or
rape/incest? Or only if the life of the mother is in danger?
With that said, this polling result does undercut the favored
media narrative that the reason why the GOP is losing is that
it's been captured by social conservatives who are overly
obsessed with abortion.
One of Gallup's possible explanation is that since President
Obama's election has helped redefine "pro-choice" as "taxpayer
money should go to fund abortions here and overseas," people
don't agree with that as much. In other words, feelings may not
have changed much, but impressions of the labels have.
If it weren't for the media (and Hollywood), the percentage of
pro-lifers would be much higher. It's amazing how many people can
be influenced by what they see on television and do not
critically evaluate it.
Good thing that there are groups like CatholicVote who have been
coming out with some excellent pro-life commercials as of late.
jim rice| 5.15.09 @ 12:02PM
I'm Pro-Life and Anti-The-Government-Can-Tell-You-What-To-Do.
If you want to have an abortion, then I don't care. But I would
not choose it. Unless it was going to kill the mother to carry it
to term. As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious /
social agenda on the forefront, I will never vote for them even
though I am typically much more in agreement with true
conservative political stances.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 12:10PM
It has long been known that these numbers jump around with a
volatility unlike most other poll numbers.
Ask Americans if a fourteen year old girl who is raped by her
uncle should be forced to have a baby if the pregnancy is known
in the first week, and you don't have a majority of people saying
abortion is absolutely always wrong. This is philosophically
indefensible, but there you have it.
Ask Americans a more general question, and the numbers sway
radically to the other side.
What does this prove? First, neither side can use their quoted
majorities to make a good argument.
I earnestly hope Roe V Wade will fall. Politically, it will
return this issue to the states where it belongs. Let each side
produce arguments, and let the people decided.
Morally, it will remove an unjust law from the body of
Constitutional law.
Roe is baffling illogical in some ways. (Someone explain to me
how viability makes a person. It's ludicrous.) Unfortunately, it
is brilliant in other ways: as much as conservatives say they
hate the "penumbra" idea, it provides for great protection from
state power in an age when we're going to need it.
The "penumbra" -- remember -- was first devised to say that the
government cannot put you in jail for being in possession of a
condom. The "penumbra" protects you and your spouse in your
bedroom, if you choose to engage in acts a moral majority in your
state has chosen to outlaw.
Frankly, I believe Roe is weakest on viability and on equal
protection grounds.
It is also increasingly weak on from purely secular points of
view. Just in the past ten years we've learned incredible amounts
of information about fetus development. The more we learn, the
more their humanity becomes harder to ignore. It's another means
to convince people to rethink their stances on this issue.
Angel| 5.15.09 @ 12:32PM
Planned Parenthood would perform an illegal abortion on the the
fourteen year old girl raped by her uncle even if she told the
staff that she was only 14 years old and her 'boyfriend' was 31
years old. UCLA coed, Lila Rose, has conducted undercover
investigations at various PP clinics around the country and has
found that PP routinely facilitates this illegal activity.
Planned Parenthood is a rogue organization protected by the rabid
pro-abortion/pro-infanticide industry. Abortion is slavery--the
subjugation of helpless human beings--it must be abolished.
Dan| 5.15.09 @ 12:44PM
Phil,
the imagery of the sonnigrams {sp?} is increasingly getting
clearer, and it's driving the numbers.
And what's more, as the technology gets better, and as the
imagery becomes ever more clearer, ----------------------- the
pro-choicers are going to get tarred just as the pro-slavers were
tarred.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 1:22PM
"Roe is baffling illogical in some ways. (Someone explain to me
how viability makes a person. It's ludicrous.) Unfortunately, it
is brilliant in other ways: as much as conservatives say they
hate the "penumbra" idea, it provides for great protection from
state power in an age when we're going to need it. "
Tom Paine,
You're confusing Griswald v Conneticut with Roe. Granted, Harry
Blackmun justified his majority Roe opinion by citing Griswald
and O'Douglas' famous Penumbra and emenations, but Griswald
pertained to the sale of artificial contraception to married
couples.
O'Douglas finding a "Right to Privacy" (in this case the privacy
of married couples to buy and use birth control) where none
previously existed still makes no constitutional sense. Both
Bickel and Bork's devastating critiques focused on O'Douglas's
creation out of thin air to constitutional right to birth
control. They warned that Griswald would give birth to more
"rights". The 2004 Lawrence vs Texas case, which the majority
opinion found a constitutional right to sodomy cited Griswald.
Polygamists have stated that they intend to do the same very
soon.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 1:28PM
"As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious / social
agenda on the forefront,.."
Yes, like those damn Pilgrims who refused to follow Anglicanism,
or Thomas Moore who refused to submit to his King, or those darn
Abolishionists who demanded the slaves be freed.
If only religious people stopped being religious all of the GOP's
problems, not to mention the world, would go away.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:03PM
JP --
I'm not "confusing" Griswald with Roe. The legal reasoning of
Griswald, which served as the basis of some of Roe's legal
reasoning, I'm arguing is sound.
The "penumbra" is not the creation of a new right. Rather, it is
the logical extension of Constitutional rights. Without privacy,
the thinking goes, there can be no "liberty." I generally accept
this idea. Article 4 protections especially generate this
"penumbra." There is no meaningful liberty without what we now
would call a "right to privacy."
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:08PM
Put it this way.
If your state passed a law saying you could only have sex with
your spouse if your intent was to conceive a child, the only
Constitutional remedy would be the "penumbra" defined by
Griswald.
I find it difficult to imagine a definition of liberty that would
include the ability of the state to dictate proper sexual
relations between married persons. I'm happy to have the
"penumbra" reasoning to turn to.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:08PM
Put it this way.
If your state passed a law saying you could only have sex with
your spouse if your intent was to conceive a child, the only
Constitutional remedy would be the "penumbra" defined by
Griswald.
I find it difficult to imagine a definition of liberty that would
include the ability of the state to dictate proper sexual
relations between married persons. I'm happy to have the
"penumbra" reasoning to turn to.
Yur Better| 5.15.09 @ 2:48PM
It's time to rejoice not equivocate.
Joe Embryo| 5.15.09 @ 2:49PM
Don't I get an entry into the debate?
jim rice| 5.15.09 @ 3:14PM
"Yes, like those damn Pilgrims who refused to follow Anglicanism,
or Thomas Moore who refused to submit to his King, or those darn
Abolishionists who demanded the slaves be freed."
yeah, b/c the abolition of slavery was a Christian movement and
there weren't churches all over the South who advocated the
illegitimacy of the black man's soul and the Catholic church
didn't subjugate or murder thousands of indigenous people in
South America for the same reason.
And Thomas More's problem was precisely that the King was
attempting to coopt religion and turn it into his own political
tool.
And if the politicians of the day had left religion out of
things, the Pilgrims wouldn't have needed to run away.
Thank you for proving my point.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 3:35PM
Tom Paine,
Why even have amendments if the Constiution can say anything some
justice says it could. The founders did not give the judiciary
the right to create new rights. Madison went even as far as to
say it was the least dangerou branch. There was nothing hidden in
the Bill of Rights, nor in the specific clauses. It is absurd is
to think otherwise. When people say privacy, what do they mean?
Crimnals and degenerates of course love the idea of privacy.
Jim Rice,
You seem blissfully unaware of what liberal secularists have
done, beginning with Napolean and ending with Pol Pot. The Church
has given us everything from the notion of Man's individual
Dignity, our university system, the nuclear family and its
protections, to universal ideas concerning justice. The Church
protected the classical antiquities of Greece and Rome, as well
as thier philosophies.
In the US, it was both the Catholic and Protestant churches that
provided the moral and civic underpinnings that we've enjoyed for
230 years. Go to Iran, India, and China and look at thier
history. You will find something completely different.
And speaking of Thomas Moore, what King or modern despot doesn't
wish to coopt religion for his own poltical ends? You have it
backwards, and the framers had it correct. The 1st Amendment's
prohibitions were not on the Church but on the State (Congress
specifically).
Pkane| 5.15.09 @ 3:52PM
jim rice,
As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious /
social agenda on the forefront, I will never vote for them even
though I am typically much more in agreement with true
conservative political stances.
This position baffles me. So you'll sit back and accept higher
taxes, regulations, and all manner of restrictive anti-choice
economic policies that actually affect your every day life
because you disagree with Republicans on one issue that elected
officials have very little control over anyway?
The abortion issue is settled for now. Abortion is not going to
become illegal anytime soon. Anyway, any serious change in
abortion policy would only occur because of a staggering shift in
public opinion that would have little to do with politicians. It
would mean the overturning of Roe by the SCOTUS, a dramatic move
that even conservative justices do not take lightly. THEN, that
would only mean the states would be free to determine their own
abortion policy, which is a federalist solution that I would
think even a pro-choice conservative could accept.
Now, compare that process to how major economic choices can be
wipe away on a daily basic with little or no debate?
Daisy| 5.15.09 @ 4:29PM
51 million babies have been slaughtered, yet soulless liberals
still pontificate on the finer points of 'penumbras'. Gag.
Lisa Nolin| 5.15.09 @ 10:41PM
jim rice "If you want to have an abortion, then I don't care."
If someone wants to beat their kids do you care?
If someone wants to down their kids do you care?
Why then do you not care about someone using sharp objects to cut
apart a small, living human being with a beating heart as science
tells us?
Abortion is not a social issue. It is a core constitutional issue
about whether humans have a right to live or not.
MT| 5.16.09 @ 12:48AM
Liberals don't care about babies in the womb because the babies
can't vote. It's all about power, all of the time with liberals.
John Thacker| 5.15.09 @ 11:06AM
One of Gallup's possible explanation is that since President Obama's election has helped redefine "pro-choice" as "taxpayer money should go to fund abortions here and overseas," people don't agree with that as much. In other words, feelings may not have changed much, but impressions of the labels have.
John| 5.15.09 @ 11:55AM
If it weren't for the media (and Hollywood), the percentage of pro-lifers would be much higher. It's amazing how many people can be influenced by what they see on television and do not critically evaluate it.
Good thing that there are groups like CatholicVote who have been coming out with some excellent pro-life commercials as of late.
jim rice| 5.15.09 @ 12:02PM
I'm Pro-Life and Anti-The-Government-Can-Tell-You-What-To-Do.
If you want to have an abortion, then I don't care. But I would not choose it. Unless it was going to kill the mother to carry it to term. As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious / social agenda on the forefront, I will never vote for them even though I am typically much more in agreement with true conservative political stances.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 12:10PM
It has long been known that these numbers jump around with a volatility unlike most other poll numbers.
Ask Americans if a fourteen year old girl who is raped by her uncle should be forced to have a baby if the pregnancy is known in the first week, and you don't have a majority of people saying abortion is absolutely always wrong. This is philosophically indefensible, but there you have it.
Ask Americans a more general question, and the numbers sway radically to the other side.
What does this prove? First, neither side can use their quoted majorities to make a good argument.
I earnestly hope Roe V Wade will fall. Politically, it will return this issue to the states where it belongs. Let each side produce arguments, and let the people decided.
Morally, it will remove an unjust law from the body of Constitutional law.
Roe is baffling illogical in some ways. (Someone explain to me how viability makes a person. It's ludicrous.) Unfortunately, it is brilliant in other ways: as much as conservatives say they hate the "penumbra" idea, it provides for great protection from state power in an age when we're going to need it.
The "penumbra" -- remember -- was first devised to say that the government cannot put you in jail for being in possession of a condom. The "penumbra" protects you and your spouse in your bedroom, if you choose to engage in acts a moral majority in your state has chosen to outlaw.
Frankly, I believe Roe is weakest on viability and on equal protection grounds.
It is also increasingly weak on from purely secular points of view. Just in the past ten years we've learned incredible amounts of information about fetus development. The more we learn, the more their humanity becomes harder to ignore. It's another means to convince people to rethink their stances on this issue.
Angel| 5.15.09 @ 12:32PM
Planned Parenthood would perform an illegal abortion on the the fourteen year old girl raped by her uncle even if she told the staff that she was only 14 years old and her 'boyfriend' was 31 years old. UCLA coed, Lila Rose, has conducted undercover investigations at various PP clinics around the country and has found that PP routinely facilitates this illegal activity. Planned Parenthood is a rogue organization protected by the rabid pro-abortion/pro-infanticide industry. Abortion is slavery--the subjugation of helpless human beings--it must be abolished.
Dan| 5.15.09 @ 12:44PM
Phil,
the imagery of the sonnigrams {sp?} is increasingly getting clearer, and it's driving the numbers.
And what's more, as the technology gets better, and as the imagery becomes ever more clearer, ----------------------- the pro-choicers are going to get tarred just as the pro-slavers were tarred.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 1:22PM
"Roe is baffling illogical in some ways. (Someone explain to me how viability makes a person. It's ludicrous.) Unfortunately, it is brilliant in other ways: as much as conservatives say they hate the "penumbra" idea, it provides for great protection from state power in an age when we're going to need it. "
Tom Paine,
You're confusing Griswald v Conneticut with Roe. Granted, Harry Blackmun justified his majority Roe opinion by citing Griswald and O'Douglas' famous Penumbra and emenations, but Griswald pertained to the sale of artificial contraception to married couples.
O'Douglas finding a "Right to Privacy" (in this case the privacy of married couples to buy and use birth control) where none previously existed still makes no constitutional sense. Both Bickel and Bork's devastating critiques focused on O'Douglas's creation out of thin air to constitutional right to birth control. They warned that Griswald would give birth to more "rights". The 2004 Lawrence vs Texas case, which the majority opinion found a constitutional right to sodomy cited Griswald. Polygamists have stated that they intend to do the same very soon.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 1:28PM
"As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious / social agenda on the forefront,.."
Yes, like those damn Pilgrims who refused to follow Anglicanism, or Thomas Moore who refused to submit to his King, or those darn Abolishionists who demanded the slaves be freed.
If only religious people stopped being religious all of the GOP's problems, not to mention the world, would go away.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:03PM
JP --
I'm not "confusing" Griswald with Roe. The legal reasoning of Griswald, which served as the basis of some of Roe's legal reasoning, I'm arguing is sound.
The "penumbra" is not the creation of a new right. Rather, it is the logical extension of Constitutional rights. Without privacy, the thinking goes, there can be no "liberty." I generally accept this idea. Article 4 protections especially generate this "penumbra." There is no meaningful liberty without what we now would call a "right to privacy."
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:08PM
Put it this way.
If your state passed a law saying you could only have sex with your spouse if your intent was to conceive a child, the only Constitutional remedy would be the "penumbra" defined by Griswald.
I find it difficult to imagine a definition of liberty that would include the ability of the state to dictate proper sexual relations between married persons. I'm happy to have the "penumbra" reasoning to turn to.
Tom Paine| 5.15.09 @ 2:08PM
Put it this way.
If your state passed a law saying you could only have sex with your spouse if your intent was to conceive a child, the only Constitutional remedy would be the "penumbra" defined by Griswald.
I find it difficult to imagine a definition of liberty that would include the ability of the state to dictate proper sexual relations between married persons. I'm happy to have the "penumbra" reasoning to turn to.
Yur Better| 5.15.09 @ 2:48PM
It's time to rejoice not equivocate.
Joe Embryo| 5.15.09 @ 2:49PM
Don't I get an entry into the debate?
jim rice| 5.15.09 @ 3:14PM
"Yes, like those damn Pilgrims who refused to follow Anglicanism, or Thomas Moore who refused to submit to his King, or those darn Abolishionists who demanded the slaves be freed."
yeah, b/c the abolition of slavery was a Christian movement and there weren't churches all over the South who advocated the illegitimacy of the black man's soul and the Catholic church didn't subjugate or murder thousands of indigenous people in South America for the same reason.
And Thomas More's problem was precisely that the King was attempting to coopt religion and turn it into his own political tool.
And if the politicians of the day had left religion out of things, the Pilgrims wouldn't have needed to run away.
Thank you for proving my point.
JP| 5.15.09 @ 3:35PM
Tom Paine,
Why even have amendments if the Constiution can say anything some justice says it could. The founders did not give the judiciary the right to create new rights. Madison went even as far as to say it was the least dangerou branch. There was nothing hidden in the Bill of Rights, nor in the specific clauses. It is absurd is to think otherwise. When people say privacy, what do they mean? Crimnals and degenerates of course love the idea of privacy.
Jim Rice,
You seem blissfully unaware of what liberal secularists have done, beginning with Napolean and ending with Pol Pot. The Church has given us everything from the notion of Man's individual Dignity, our university system, the nuclear family and its protections, to universal ideas concerning justice. The Church protected the classical antiquities of Greece and Rome, as well as thier philosophies.
In the US, it was both the Catholic and Protestant churches that provided the moral and civic underpinnings that we've enjoyed for 230 years. Go to Iran, India, and China and look at thier history. You will find something completely different.
And speaking of Thomas Moore, what King or modern despot doesn't wish to coopt religion for his own poltical ends? You have it backwards, and the framers had it correct. The 1st Amendment's prohibitions were not on the Church but on the State (Congress specifically).
Pkane| 5.15.09 @ 3:52PM
jim rice,
As long as "Conservatives" are putting their religious / social agenda on the forefront, I will never vote for them even though I am typically much more in agreement with true conservative political stances.
This position baffles me. So you'll sit back and accept higher taxes, regulations, and all manner of restrictive anti-choice economic policies that actually affect your every day life because you disagree with Republicans on one issue that elected officials have very little control over anyway?
The abortion issue is settled for now. Abortion is not going to become illegal anytime soon. Anyway, any serious change in abortion policy would only occur because of a staggering shift in public opinion that would have little to do with politicians. It would mean the overturning of Roe by the SCOTUS, a dramatic move that even conservative justices do not take lightly. THEN, that would only mean the states would be free to determine their own abortion policy, which is a federalist solution that I would think even a pro-choice conservative could accept.
Now, compare that process to how major economic choices can be wipe away on a daily basic with little or no debate?
Daisy| 5.15.09 @ 4:29PM
51 million babies have been slaughtered, yet soulless liberals still pontificate on the finer points of 'penumbras'. Gag.
Lisa Nolin| 5.15.09 @ 10:41PM
jim rice "If you want to have an abortion, then I don't care."
If someone wants to beat their kids do you care?
If someone wants to down their kids do you care?
Why then do you not care about someone using sharp objects to cut apart a small, living human being with a beating heart as science tells us?
Abortion is not a social issue. It is a core constitutional issue about whether humans have a right to live or not.
MT| 5.16.09 @ 12:48AM
Liberals don't care about babies in the womb because the babies can't vote. It's all about power, all of the time with liberals.
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