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The Spectacle Blog
Without taking a position here on whether waterboarding is moral or tantamount to torture or whether torture, however it may be defined, is a useful means of intelligence-gathering, the rush to investigate and possibly indict former Bush administration officials for doing their jobs is beyond disturbing.
This vindictive, malicious push to pay back the architects of the War on Terror for making a good faith effort to defend America is being driven by pundits such as the increasingly nutty Andrew Sullivan, law professor Jonathan Turley, the George Soros-funded real-life subversives at the Center for Constitutional Rights (which is headed by Che Guevara apologist Michael Ratner), and the left-wing pressure group MoveOn.org. They all want Bush administration officials investigated in connection with the advice they offered with respect to enhanced interrogation techniques.
Not only is this wrong as David Frum points out, it’s incredibly dangerous. In America, we resolve policy differences through elections. We don’t use the legal system after officials have left office to prosecute them for doing their jobs.
That’s un-American.
The Wall Street Journal summed up the situation well:
Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.
Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama’s victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.
If this analogy seems excessive, consider how Mr. Obama has framed the issue. He has absolved CIA operatives of any legal jeopardy, no doubt because his intelligence advisers told him how damaging that would be to CIA morale when Mr. Obama needs the agency to protect the country. But he has pointedly invited investigations against Republican legal advisers who offered their best advice at the request of CIA officials. […]
Going after Bush-era lawyers is madness. If these witch trials come to America, the country will never be the same again.
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Michaelc | 4.23.09 @ 8:05PM
Seriously? We should ignore that our leaders ordered interrogation techniques that were banned by the Geneva convention, and when used by the Japanese in WWII, the perpetrators were executed?
Extreme Measures| 4.23.09 @ 8:05PM
I've got a adjective for David Frum too: nutty
Bill Bailey| 4.23.09 @ 8:09PM
Nice try, and welcome to troll Michaelc.
Terrorists are not protected by the Geneva Convention because they choose to operate outside the realm of civilized warfare. The Japanese were executed for far more serious things, such as pulling out fingernails, beatings, forced starvation, extrajudicial murder, Bataan Death March, and so on.
KevlarKevin| 4.23.09 @ 8:21PM
Michaelc, are you a traitor? Do you love this country?
Pingback| 4.23.09 @ 8:22PM
MoveOn Pushing Payback for the War on Terror | But As For Me links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Becky| 4.23.09 @ 8:38PM
Sometimes there are choices that are not clear cut either way you go, so you have to "make the hard decisions", in the words of our President. The decision to use those tactics just may be one he will be faced with in the future. There are trade offs for choices made, a concept most liberals fail to understand. When you are faced with desiring two things and only have money for one of them, you have to decide if you want one or none. You can't have both. Do you try to save American lives, or protect a code that is not recognized or used by the enemy you have in custody? If you respect the Geneva Conventions, and it costs American lives, what have you gained or lost? Our guys will still be tortured, raped, etc. when captured. To believe otherwise is just to be purposefully clueless.
This president will be faced with a similar one, and already has regarding the economic ventures he is wading deeper and deeper in. In his discovery of just how the concept of "fair" works, I'm sure he will make a decision that future generations will judge.
I fail to believe the likes of the Speaker, she claimed absolutely no responsibility for the financial mess, and it just is not true. The Congress knew about this and to back out now is really weak.
Becky| 4.23.09 @ 8:42PM
Sometimes there are choices that are not clear cut either way you go, so you have to "make the hard decisions", in the words of our President. There are trade offs for choices made, a concept most liberals fail to understand. When you are faced with desiring two things and only have money for one of them, you have to decide if you want one or none. You can't have both. Do you try to save American lives, or protect a code that is not recognized or used by the enemy you have in custody? If you respect the Geneva Conventions, and it costs American lives, what have you gained or lost? Our guys will still be tortured, raped, etc. when captured. To believe otherwise is just to be purposefully clueless.
This president will be faced with a similar circumstance, and his economic adventures should be teaching him just how the concept of "fair" works. I'm sure he will make a decision that future generations will judge.
I
Becky| 4.23.09 @ 8:43PM
Sometimes there are choices that are not clear cut either way you go, so you have to "make the hard decisions", in the words of our President. There are trade offs for choices made, a concept most liberals fail to understand. When you are faced with desiring two things and only have money for one of them, you have to decide if you want one or none. You can't have both.
This president will be faced with a similar circumstance, and his economic adventures should be teaching him just how the concept of "fair" works. I'm sure he will make a decision that future generations will judge.
I
Warrior | 4.23.09 @ 9:02PM
What the liberals do not see is the ramifications of such politically motivated witch hunts. What happens if the next administration decides that Obama's orders to execute (we can play semantics with this, but lets use the word execute for arguments sake) the three Somali pirates is a high crime and needs a trial? After all, he did give the order, there was no legal representation for the executed, what if they didn't die right away and felt tremendous pain for minutes or even an hour? Maybe we can put Clinton personnel on trial for launching a missile into the Chinese embassy. Dangerous territory they are entering here. Once this pandora's box is opened, it will not be easily closed.
Before the stupidity starts. I fully support the order to end the terrorist actions and hostage holding of the "pirates."
woodard. nunis| 4.23.09 @ 10:50PM
Well it is nice to see the liberal dunce Michaelc repeats the same canard that his big hero Ted Kennedey perpetrated. No Japanese war criminal was executed for waterboarding anyone. Sorry you liberal dunce the true facts of the case are the following:
Yukio Asano, a Japanese soldier convicted of war crimes. His case was popularized — in the context of waterboarding — by Ted Kennedy. See this Washington Post article from 2006:
"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.
Not only was Asano not executed, but his 15-year sentence was for a host of crimes besides waterboarding. According to the U.C. Berkeley War Crimes center:
Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.
Specifications: beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward
So Asano beat people with clubs and burned them with cigarettes — and I think there's no real debate about whether that consitutes torture. But wait, there's more. Asano practiced a much more severe form of waterboarding, according to the Post:
Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.
In waterboarding as it is practiced by the U.S., cellophane or cloth is placed over the subject's mouth to keep water out of nose and mouth. Asano was pouring water directly into the mouths and noses of subjects which is considerably more harsh and dangerous.
It is certainly not accurate to say that the U.S. punished war ciminals from other countries for the same enhanced interrogation techniques we committed in the wake of 9/11. But go ahead you liberal dunce and keep spouting your total BS because Moveon and other American hating leftists just love it.
whiterb| 4.23.09 @ 11:03PM
Good for you Bill Bailey for nailing Michaelc with the truth. If all our enemies in WW2 did was harsh interrogation to gain info on ambush site locations, or minefields we would hardly have executed or jailed them. We did not starve people to death in work camps, not give them medical aid when stricken with malaria, and so much more. Yet, nowhere, hardly nowhere is such historical perspective offered. In my opinion we should demand the Bush people be indicted. Then we'd have a trial were rules of evidence, etc apply. Let's see if a jury would convict these people ? Let the ACLU and Moveon and the rest assemble their prosecutorial dream team. I'd love to hear this prissy jerk Turley explain how it is immoral not to gain knowledge that might save a school of children from being slaughtered. Guys like him truly believe the children must die, rather than letting our interrogation pros save the day. That is the moral thing to do in their minds. Yet, with the power of the MSM, and full power in Washington in their hands the dems will lie and scheme and get away with this travesty. John Boehner says we will soon be hearing quite a bit more on this matter from him and others. For once they've got to get their shit together and win a public relations battle. It is time to rumble, and hit the MSM too. If the GOP can convince me they will run a first rate media campaign on this issue I will give them money again.
Francis Beckwith | 4.23.09 @ 11:14PM
As has been already pointed out, Michaelc is wrong about waterboarding Japanese war criminals. But what just occurred to me is this: Is Michaelc suggesting that we should return to the moral climate of the late 1940s in its entirety including forced racial segregation and no abortion rights? If not, then why do the late 1940s impart on wisdom on post-war military tribunals and not on other matters?
Francis Beckwith | 4.23.09 @ 11:15PM
Dumb me. I meant to write above "waterboarding and Japanese war criminals."
Marcos | 4.24.09 @ 2:19AM
Che Guevara is a hero ...
and this site is full of douchebags.
Deborah D | 4.24.09 @ 6:20AM
Che Guevara was a murdering terrorist. But, those are the folks leftists love -- like Fidel. (Bill Ayers as well)
Pingback| 4.24.09 @ 6:55AM
Lee Stranahan: WATCH: My Video Response To The Response To MoveOn’s Torture Video I links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 4.24.09 @ 7:48AM
Lee Stranahan: WATCH: My Video Response To The Response To MoveOn’s Torture Video I links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
stmichrick| 4.24.09 @ 8:30AM
Michaelc;
What is the acceptable number of terrorist-caused deaths you would tolerate before allowing a rough pilot training technique to be used in order to gain information necessary to avoid those deaths?
stmichrick| 4.24.09 @ 8:40AM
The word RETRIBUTION needs to be in every Republican's talking points on this. For those not paying attention, the only human reason for pursuing prosecution on waterboarding (and insect-stinging and sleep deprivation and being mean) is Democrat/socialist/appeaser RETRIBUTION for the humiliation they suffer about being wrong on defending the nation. They are seeking an impossible validation.
The Democrat/leftist way of treating Trade Towers I, Cobar Towers, USS Cole and other alQuaida operations prior to 9/11 as law enforcement issues will appear in next generation history textbooks as lessons in cause and effect.
NavyBrat| 4.24.09 @ 9:54AM
Marcos. Boy, I bet you had to think REAL hard before coming up with that brilliant response. Keep trying little boy, maybe someday, your brain will be big enough to allow you to hang with the 4th graders.
Michaelc. Others have already explained the Japanese torture tactics. Here's another version of Japanese water torture: They would stick a water hose in the prisoner's mouth, & turn on the spigot until their their bellies distended. Then the guards would either jump on the prisoner's stomach until their innards ruptured, or bayonet them. Sound a little different to you? I think so.
NavyBrat| 4.24.09 @ 9:55AM
Marcos. Boy, I bet you had to think REAL hard before coming up with that brilliant response. Keep trying little boy, maybe someday, your brain will be big enough to allow you to hang with the 4th graders.
Michaelc. Others have already explained the Japanese torture tactics. Here's another version of Japanese water torture: They would stick a water hose in the prisoner's mouth, & turn on the spigot until their their bellies distended. Then the guards would either jump on the prisoner's stomach until their innards ruptured, or bayonet them. Sound a little different to you? I think so.
NavyBrat| 4.24.09 @ 9:55AM
Marcos. Boy, I bet you had to think REAL hard before coming up with that brilliant response. Keep trying little boy, maybe someday, your brain will be big enough to allow you to hang with the 4th graders.
Michaelc. Others have already explained the Japanese torture tactics. Here's another version of Japanese water torture: They would stick a water hose in the prisoner's mouth, & turn on the spigot until their their bellies distended. Then the guards would either jump on the prisoner's stomach until their innards ruptured, or bayonet them. Sound a little different to you? I think so.
NavyBrat| 4.24.09 @ 10:39AM
Sorry about the double post, y'all.