The American Spectator

Teleprompter Messiah| 4.21.09 @ 12:59PM

The problem with the torture agonistes is the inexactness of their terms. The Red Cross used the terms "tantamount to torture" in a report once. Either it is or is not torture.

The common law has long recognized the principle that in cases of extreme and dangerous circumstances, breaking the law is permissable. The question has always been, what circumstances?

We have adopted laws that prohibit the practice of torture. We are a humane nation. But, we are also a nation who was attacked by people who recognize no moral constraint and whose purpose is indiscriminate murder, destruction and mayhem.

The federal government ought to release the reports so we may judge whether these acts were necessary.

Tom Paine| 4.21.09 @ 1:02PM

This is a thoughtful piece on this topic, and very welcome.

Before a storm of commenters write in to remind us how "evil" these prisoners are, let us keep in mind that we do NOT outlaw torture because we are bleeding hearts who feel sorry for terrorists.

We outlaw torture to defend our honor and the integrity of our government. We outlaw torture so that are young men and women in uniform are not ordered to commit atrocities, which debases and traumatizes them. We outlaw torture because we simply do not believe the state has the right to deny a person his humanity, no matter how evil that person may be.

Set aside the outraged objections to torture of military men (who actually know what they're talking about); set aside the fact that the information gained by torture is extremely dubious; torture undermines the justice of our cause. Why be America at all, if we would torture?

Tim| 4.21.09 @ 2:08PM

I have serious doubts about acts which are routinely performed on "Celebrity Fear Factor" being described as torture.
Certainly, being burnt alive in an office building constitutes torture but a our own left sees it only as justice. Reverend Wright's obviously gleeful ; " America's chickens are coming home to roost" to take but one example, did not upset a future President at all.
Enhanced interrogation is not torture. Why not ask some people in LA who have NOT been burnt alive at their desks how they feel about it?

Teleprompter Messiah| 4.21.09 @ 2:38PM

Tom Paine:

Whose definition of "torture" do you use? The European human rights folderol definition or American law?

We don't torture because we are civilized people, not because we care about the humanity of brutes.

As for the barbarians we fight, they could give a damn about Geneva or the law of war. Their purpose is to terrorize.

After 9/11 the refrain was "this changes everything". Not really. All that happened is the America haters muted their grousing. They still hated America.

"Torture" has just been another stick for these folks to beat big bad America. Its easy when doing so has no consequences and makes you popular among a certain set.

Angel| 4.21.09 @ 3:01PM

I keep asking TP/Jeremiah the same question: Why didn't your democrat leaders Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harmon, Harry Reid and Tom Daschle object to these interrogation techniques when it mattered? Democrats headed ALL of the Congressional Committees for two years--and they didn't say one word or leak any specifics to their buddies in the MSM. So, if you liberals are going to start a witch hunt against George W.'s administration and the CIA, we must demand that every democrat who was apprised of these techniques be included on the witch hunt list, too. I'm sure that Rush and FOX will make sure this point is made. Repeatedly.

ruth| 4.21.09 @ 3:11PM

My daughter, Kathleen, works in Downtown Los Angeles. The thought of my beautiful child dying an agonizing death at the hands of terrorists makes me want to vomit. It's different when it's personal, TP-- Kathleen's life isn't just a hypothetical to me. I don't give a damn how many times that savage was waterboarded--I'd have done it myself if it meant my daughter's life.

Nope| 4.21.09 @ 3:46PM

The common law does not recognize "the principle that in cases of extreme and dangerous circumstances, breaking the law is permissible." That's just completely untrue. Any first year law student could tell you that. You might be thinking of the theories of Self-Defense or Necessity, but that's not how those defenses work either. No system of law -- common, civil, or otherwise -- contains a provision for its own cancellation.

As for the documents that Cheney is referring to, by all means, let them be released. Let's be allowed to judge for ourselves. It's cute what he's doing here. He and his administration were the ones who classified them in the first place. Because, of course, us normal American citizens, us peons, couldn't actually be trusted with the knowledge of whether the CIA procedures actually worked or not.

Kudos to Philip Klein for writing a fair-minded article.

Pete| 4.21.09 @ 3:49PM

They would have remained classified, tool, if Obama hadn't declassified the others first.

Tim| 4.21.09 @ 3:54PM

The bloodless fantasy world of lawyers. How nice.
How can we forget the lawyers who charged up Omaha beach, getting sand all over their suits while serving injunctions to the Nazi gunners?

The lawyers at Pearl Harbor who shouted at the Japanese planes that they were in violation of international law!

The strongly worded assault on Iwo Jima?

The great debate of Gettysburg and Washington's tort at Yorktown?

Ridiculous? You expect law and lawyers to stop the next 9/11? Good luck.

Thomas| 4.21.09 @ 4:19PM

The problem with the "torture" debate has always been the definition of torture. On the one hand, some argue that any practice that causes discomfort is torture. On the other side are those who argue that the definition should be very narrow; i.e. practices that cause significant bodily injury that can lead to death Then there is a broad spectrum in between. "Torture" is an emotionally charged word and should probably not be used in this discussion for that reason.

Then there is how we define the contest that this nation is presently engaged in with radical terrorists. Is it a war? Is it a defense against a criminal movement? Or is it a fight for the very existence of Western and American culture and the lives of its people?

If this is a war, then we will have to accept the fact that sometimes the end justifies the means. In our society, some have the luxury of remaining aloof from the violence and ethically questionable actions and deeds necessary to provide them with that luxury. The people who commit these deeds, at the behest of society, should not be persecuted.

In a quote attributed to George Orwell, he said,
"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm."

Just something to think about.

JP| 4.21.09 @ 4:43PM

The point is moot anyhow, as President Obama has artfully said that he will:

a)Continue GITMO by other means (ie using Bagram AB in Afghanistan. This he week he said that the SCOTUS ruling giving GITMO detainees habeous corpus rights do not apply to Bagram). Detainees in Afghanistan, under Obama, can be held indefinitely and without council.

b)Waterboarding is the only form of "torture" he has officially said he will outlaw. But there are a slew of other forms of torture he fails to mention. And thus far, he never explicitly ordered CIA interrogators to use the Army Field Manual -he's spoken about it several times, but no CIA officials have ever come forward and said it was official.

c)All NSA programs pertaining to wiretapping over foreign communications will continue from the Bush admin.

d)Rendition is still in play.

I'm not sure why the Left is so ecstatic; Obama is basically Bush Redux. Rendition, torture, indefinite confinement, and wire tapping are still in play. Could it be, pray-tell, that these were phony issues all along. Now that a Democrat is doing them, the so-called human rights activits are not quite so humane?

Lily| 4.21.09 @ 4:49PM

Obama's not stupid: He knows if we're attacked once, his fascist liberal dream agenda is dead. He'd better continue Bush's SUCCESSFUL strategies.

Teleprompter Messiah| 4.21.09 @ 4:50PM

Nope: Necessity does not cancel or annul the law but does forgive its violation. It is a defense that seldom succeeds.

Tom Paine| 4.21.09 @ 6:16PM

"If Socrates leave his house today he will find the sage seated on his doorstep. If Judas go forth tonight it is to Judas his steps will tend."
--Maeterlink

We must remember that what we do determines what we are. That is why we do not torture.

AS for defining torture, that is for heartless sociopathic lawyers. You know what torture is, as do I, as does the whole world.

ruth| 4.21.09 @ 6:22PM

I'll take sociopathic lawyers over narcissistic fascist liberals any day of the week. At least I'll still be alive to make the choice.

Nope| 4.21.09 @ 7:53PM

I agree that Necessity seldom works as a Defense. Wow, that was the least argumentative conversation that I've ever had on this website.

Yep, I know that everything would have stayed classified if Cheney had had his way. Because we the people can't be trusted! With such information! Cheney knows; oh, he knows. He can't tell us how he knows what he knows or even what he knows, but believe me, he knows... you can take his word for it.

I'm sure that the fantasy allegation wherein an alternate-universe me said that lawyers we're really great and know everything and that they stormed the beaches of Normandy has something to do with something... I just can't figure out what it is.

I was just trying to point out that the one really nice thing about the law is that it can't be suddenly changed at the last second. I went to law school, I hate lawyers, and trust me, that's the only good thing about the law -- it's consistent. "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Bush can't break the law and neither can Obama, not if the system works. And the even better thing is, we can't retroactively change stuff around.

"The principle that in cases of extreme and dangerous circumstances, breaking the law is permissible." Trust me, you guys don't want that. You don't want that at all. You don't want other people being able to break the law, and you don't want other people being able to break the law because they have more money or more sway than you and can thus get away with arguing that, Oh, well, I HAD to break the law because of these CRAZY circumstances, and here's the reason, why, your honor...

The one nice thing about our legal system, for all the other sucky parts, is that the above defense won't work. Such a defense would be laughed out of court.

Anyway, that's it. Have a nice night, you loonies!

Julia| 4.21.09 @ 10:05PM

Thank a courageous American warrior that your pansy butt is safe tonight, Nope the dope. So you can spew your silly drivel one more day. Liberal loser.

SC Mike| 4.21.09 @ 10:17PM

Here’s a ticking time bomb scenario from the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg in the case of Gäfgen v. Germany, application no. 22978/05. The bad guy’s conviction stood.
http://galj.info/2008/07/08/#0708-gaefgen.txt
He was certainly threatened and apparently roughed up a bit before he confessed. Details here:
http://www.ius-software.si/EUII/EUCHR/dokumenti/2008/06/CASE_OF_GAFGEN_v._GERMANY_30_06_2008.html

Basil Plumley| 4.21.09 @ 10:51PM

Nope--You are a colossal jewel of ignorance. Does "Social Justice" ring a bell with you? How about Jury Nullification?
There is Crime and then there is Punishment. They are always unequal.

I doubt you went to law school. If you had, you would know that the interpretation of the law changes all the time. You, like many of your ilk(Bob, Tom Paine ...), probably were absent from logic classes.

As for the "alleged torture", I am sure these folks were all innocent goat herders until our soldiers swooped in a grabbed them. Perhaps, they are misunderstood human beings who

Most likely, they are vile human beings who are intent on the death and destruction of innocent life.
I disdain the mantra that our intelligence and armed forces are the bad guys.

BTW, I don't play an Attorney in real life but I have been around many. I can't wait to share with them the story of the lawyers on Omaha Beach serving injunctions on Nazi gunners.
Tim, that was quite good.

OKGA| 4.22.09 @ 12:25AM

Ruth, you're clearly living in the pathetic world of hatred and fear FOX & CNN have crafted for you. Pssssst, most of it isn't true. Turn on the lights & try reading. Start with our own constitution, followed by our bill of rights.

ruth| 4.22.09 @ 12:47AM

Daphne/OKGA, you pathetic miserable little toad, I'd never waste my time on the joke that is CNN. Only a liberal, yellow-bellied loser like you wouldn't fight to protect her own child's life.

R| 4.22.09 @ 1:12AM

@Thomas
Maybe if you didn't invade oil rich nations, bomb people's holy land and imprison people with complete disregard for international law and human rights maybe we wouldn't need to discuss the 'definition' of torture.
The eyes of the world are focused on America and we look upon you with shame and disgust. Your country doesn't deserve to be the world leader anymore.
Your government wages war around the globe handing out lucrative contracts to the administrations buddy's and keeps the nation happy by filling them with fear or the promise of Rapture. All while your population gets dumber, fatter and more obedient.
Turn off the Fox News propaganda channel people. You’re killing people for the fat cats.

Lily| 4.22.09 @ 1:26AM

REAL TORTURE is reading another stupid, spittle-soaked screed by an ungrateful, whiny trustfund-baby liberal. Go back to your mommy's basement, only well-adjusted adults with jobs post here.

R| 4.22.09 @ 1:44AM

@Lily
Who do you work for? Halliburton or Lockheed Martin?

R| 4.22.09 @ 1:55AM

"only well-adjusted adults with jobs post here"
That rules most of America out.

Proud American Hottie| 4.22.09 @ 2:00AM

How would you know living under that fetid rock you call a country, turd? You're probably hugely fat and pasty white, useless feeder.

Interloper| 4.22.09 @ 2:03AM

You're probably one of those slutty nurses screwing up Britain's health care. Filthy infected leeches.

R| 4.22.09 @ 2:10AM

How can you be a 'Proud American' when your government flaunts the stupidy of the nation by renaming things so they don't seem so bad. They're not prisoners of war, they're detainees. Thats not suicide, thats asymetrical warfare. Thats not torture, that's 'Enhanced interrogation techniques'.

BD57| 4.22.09 @ 9:42AM

Some of these comments amount to torture .... why do people who have nothing to say hit the "submit" button?

There are a few things we should accept as "given":

1) Us refraining from torture does not protect our troops against being tortured. Especially when dealing with this enemy.

2) Over the last century, it seems every enemy we come up against believes we're soft, decadent, easily discouraged and we'll just quit if they keep fighting.

3) Those nations who consider us a rival or enemy will never run out of things to criticize us about.

4) There will always be a contingent of bubble-headed Americans who argue that ANY flaw in America renders her unworthy of the love, loyalty, etc. of her people.

Oh, and they're typically very selective in their 'flaw selection' - - - there's a remarkable connection between their politics and the flaws which "matter."

The issue before the House is

"When is the nature of an interrogation technique so noxious that its use should be forbidden even though it yields usable intelligence information?"

Simply throwing around the word "torture" isn't an answer to the question.

Neither is holier-than-thou posturing.

By all means, let's have a 'grown up' conversation about the issue.

Let's put all of the history on the table - what methods were used, what information did we obtain, etc.

Let's hear from all the Congressional types who were briefed, especially the ones who are so sanctimonious about it today - - what were they told, what did they say about what they were told and why - if it is all so obvious in 2009 - didn't they object when they were briefed?

Oh, and I'd like a billion dollars (among other things) ....

I mean, if we're going to entertain fantasies .....

Tim| 4.22.09 @ 10:01AM

R
I can understand you coming to an American site to criticize America and Americans.
If you tried criticizing your own government at home you would end up with first hand experience on the definition of torture.

R| 4.22.09 @ 11:17AM

@Tim
Do you even know why these people are at war with America?
@Lily
I don't think you understand what fascism is. “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
Sinclair Lewis
Let me define it for you:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
5. Rampant sexism.
6. A controlled mass media.
7. Obsession with national security.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
9. Power of corporations protected.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
14. Fraudulent elections.

Thomas| 4.22.09 @ 11:49AM

@R

"Maybe if you didn't invade oil rich nations, bomb people's holy land and imprison people with complete disregard for international law and human rights maybe we wouldn't need to discuss the 'definition' of torture.
The eyes of the world are focused on America and we look upon you with shame and disgust. Your country doesn't deserve to be the world leader anymore."

Baby, you need to read a little.

In the first place, the 2003 invasion of Iraq [the only oil-rich nation that the US has ever invaded] was simply the continuation of the Gulf War of 1991; which occurred after the peace loving nation of Iraq invaded the tiny oil rich nation of Kuwait. That war ended in a cease fire, not an armistice. For the cease fire to continue, all the Saddam Hussein had to do was follow the agreed upon terms. For, 12 years he failed to do this [failing to allow continued inspections by UN weapons inspectors, targeting and firing upon Colition aircraft in the no-fly zone, etc.]. Under international law, the US had every right to continue the prosecution of the 1991 war, which it did in 2003. That is why there was no outcry from any responsible parties concerning US violation of international law in 2003. As for bombing people's holy land? What holy land? Iraq? As for imprisoning people with complete disregard for international law and human rights, perhaps this has happened, perhaps not. I see no problem with the Hague hearing cases on this issue, right after they hear the cases against Iran, Iraq [under Saddam], Syria, Cuba, the Russian Republic, The People's Republic of China, Venezuela, most of the nations in African, most of the nations in South and Central America, Vietnam and much of Asia.

As for being a world leader, the people of the US don't want to be a world leader. Most Americans are quite isolationist. They don't care what the Palestinians, or the Russians, or the Chinese or Middle Eastern Muslims or the inhabitants of Somalia do. Unless the activities of those groups negatively impact our lives in the US.

So turn off Al Jazzera, the BBC, and most of the mainstream media in the US and do a little historical investigation on your own.

Pete| 4.22.09 @ 1:35PM

I would love to withdraw our military from Europe. Let Sharia Law consume the ungrateful liberal clowns over there--beheadings would become the latest fad. They could offer pay for view as the film footage is beamed all over the world. Can't say we didn't warn you, losers. lol

R| 4.22.09 @ 8:29PM

@Thomas
Bullshit. You're in Iraq for oil. Your greed knows no end. As for breaking international law, I don't think the defense that 'everyone else is doing it' stands up in court.

@Pete
Your military aint in Europe. It's in the Middle East, feel free to withdraw from there.

Pete| 4.22.09 @ 10:01PM

You're pretty stupid not to know that there is still plenty of our military in the fetid swamp known as Europe. I say we go pronto and leave you weak weenies to your Sharia fate. Bend over, grab your ankles and take it like the turd that you are. Ha ha.

Pete| 4.22.09 @ 10:04PM

Just like the French Revolution, remember? You A-holes have been starting wars and killing millions of innocents for hundreds of years. OFF WITH YOUR HEADS!! lololol

Smitty| 4.22.09 @ 10:06PM

HA ha ha ha!! I wonder what the tickets will go for? Will they be scalped? HO HO HO HO!!!

R IS AN A-HOLE| 4.22.09 @ 10:10PM

Sorry you wonderful American folks. I actually worship the ground you walk on. Please forgive me for my idiocy--I didn't mean it. I'm just a weenie who is afraid of the big bad muslims. I afwaid. I very afwaid.

R| 4.22.09 @ 10:34PM

@Pete
Are you saying that America has deployed a military force in Europe and thats the only thing stopping Sharia Law from taking over? Is that really what you think? Did you hear that on Fox News?Is your name Bill O' Reilly?

Lovely Lily| 4.22.09 @ 10:45PM

Ha ha ha ha ha! Nothing is going to stop Sharia law for you impotent European men. Too many of your superior men have been killed off in your many, many, many STUPID wars over the centuries. The sickly inferiors were left behind and that is the genetic pool from which all of you have sprung. Too bad--you've lost your will to fight for your own lives, and soon you will no longer exist. You won't be missed. At least Muslim men have balls.

R| 4.22.09 @ 11:06PM

@Lily
You're an idiot. Please read the definition of fascism above and then read a few books and maybe a newspaper or two. You might be interested to know that America was colonized by Europe. You're an embarressment to these other idiots and thats an accomplishment.

R| 4.22.09 @ 11:24PM

@Lily
"Nothing is going to stop Sharia law for you impotent European men"
You chaps rewrote your constitution when you passed the patriot act. It has brought fascism to America, just like all you right wing bible bashers wanted.

"Too many of your superior men have been killed off in your many, many, many STUPID wars over the centuries"
Your country has been in 7 major wars and countless conflicts this past century alone.

"Too bad--you've lost your will to fight for your own lives"
You're not fighting for your lives - you're fighting for oil.

Sweet Suzie| 4.23.09 @ 1:56AM

Yeah, baby, but our male gene pool is strong and oh, so masculine. Did ya see what our Navy Seals did to save our Sea Captain? Look at that male prowess!! That's something you ninnies could never do. Too bad your best and brightest died centuries ago. Just the chaff is left--and it shows. We're not going like lambs to the slaughter--you are because you have no men. You should send your women to fight--they have bigger balls than you do. Pathetic liberal losers.

Gentle Gina| 4.23.09 @ 2:02AM

At least we believe in something besides nasty whoring sex, perversion, abortion and male buggering. We believe in God the Almighty who made Heaven and Earth, and all of God's people. You believe in nothing--that's why Sharia will conquer you. Your proud and mighty ancestors must be writhing in shame at the cowardly, feckless people you have become. You bathe in slime and muck, and don't deserve to live. You have become useless feeders.

Patty's Poetry| 4.23.09 @ 2:06AM

Yes, Europe was once great, but no more. We threw off your vicious chains of oppression and won our freedom. We are a free people and we will fight to keep our freedom. You are docile farm animals who remain in your pens until you are brought to the slaughterhouse. Meek, mild and butchered.

Darling Daisy| 4.23.09 @ 2:12AM

Bravo American girls!! Well said--gave that European ninny a good spanking. But you know how they are; he probably liked it. lol

R| 4.23.09 @ 2:29AM

@Suzie
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

@Everyone
All name calling aside; America has jumped into a legal nightmare. Waterboarding a person 183 times in one month IS torture - it's undeniable. Detainees ARE prisoners of war. Suicide IS an act of dispair, NOT assymetrical warfare. This is NOT a war on terror, this IS a war for oil. The previous administration must be held accountable.
Everyone wants to believe that they are on the side of good, it's human instinct. But you people are either easily fooled, or you stand to benifit from others being fooled. The rest of the world is against you, maybe it's time you listened.

Beautiful Bonnie| 4.23.09 @ 2:41AM

Hell, I'd waterboard you 183 times if it meant you'd go away. Loser. That fat bastard is still alive and so are the THOUSANDS of innocent Americans who would have been killed if he hadn't been boarded. Tough nuggets, loser. No one is against us, everyone loves us. You are sad--are you mentally ill, locked up somewhere in a loony bin? Is your straitjacket too tight? Maybe you've soiled yourself. Take some more meds--you'll feel better, loony tunes. Obviously, you don't have a job, poor fool.

R| 4.23.09 @ 2:41AM

I'm starting to think no one actually comes to this website and I'm just talking to the editors. No one could possibly be that dumb.

Daisy| 4.23.09 @ 2:46AM

Ain't gonna happen, dum dum. George Bush and his administration were absolute heroes. Obama knows he will be destroyed if he tries to prosecute Bush & Co. Mark my words--the democrats know they are toast if they touch this. Americans will rise up and kick them ALL out of office. It would obliterate the democrat party. I promise you. Too bad, loser.

MT| 4.23.09 @ 2:50AM

Pathetic brainwashed moron, you bore me. America will prevail--we always do. Ta ta, loser--give my regards to your Muslim masters. Better get used to living on your knees, gutless wonder.

Thomas| 4.23.09 @ 11:10AM

@R
"@Thomas
Bullshit. You're in Iraq for oil. Your greed knows no end."

Wrong again, Baby. The United States, and most U.S interests have seen little, if any, oil from Iraq. Most of the post-invasion oil is going to our "friends" the Russians and Chinese. In pre-invasion Iraq, most of the oil was going to France, Russia, Germany and others in Europe , under the table, during the Oil-For-Food debacle.

Now, I realize that you have very strong opinions concerning what you perceive to be the shortcomings of the US. But, I will state, unequivocally, that so far, nearly every point that you have brought up is inaccurate. I do not know what your source material is, but it might be a good idea to broaden your information pool and develope a more accurate picture of reality.

Of course, you could actually have a very clear and accurate picture of reality and simply be a disinformation or propaganda specialist.

Either way, ciao, baby.

Daisy| 4.23.09 @ 11:58AM

Bettin' on the latter, Thomas. Just another Fascist liberal whore.

R| 4.23.09 @ 9:35PM

@Thomas
"The United States, and most U.S interests have seen little, if any, oil from Iraq"
LOL. Thats the biggest lie so far. Have you heard of Hallibuton? Maybe you need to stop reading whats on this site.

"I will state, unequivocally, that so far, nearly every point that you have brought up is inaccurate"
Which points would those be? I said water boarding was torture and that America had a policy of renaming things to make them seem not so bad. I said America was in breach of international law. I said America is in Iraq for oil and created lucrative contracts for american businesses. I defined fascism. I said the bush administration should be held accountable (check the news, the ball is rolling).
As usual, I'm sure you'll skim over most of my points and give me some nonsense pro American propeganda, and where you can't bend the truth, you'll outright lie. I knew fascism was coming to America, just didn't think Americans would welcome it. Your fore fathers wrote the declaration of independance and the bill of rights and here you are undermining everything they worked for.

@Daisy
You still don't understand what fascism is. It should be me calling you a fascist.

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