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The Spectacle Blog
“Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” -Benito Mussolini
* * * * *
It seems there are a lot of commenters, errrrr, trolls, responding with (mock?) righteous indignation to my post this morning, “Did Canada’s Universal Health Care Kill Natasha Richardson?”
The debate, if it can charitably be called that, has been interesting to read. Apart from the mudslinging, it’s good that people are at least talking about the evils of universal health care.
There has been much discussion elsewhere about whether Canada’s system of universal health care is actually socialist. Well, that depends on what you consider to be socialism. I was taught in Political Science and Political Theory courses (most of which were mindnumbingly dull for the most part) that socialism had many variants, including democratic socialism, Communism, and Fascism. Whether Fascism is socialism, or vice versa, there is no doubt that the two political ideologies and systems overlap to a great extent.
If you want to be irritatingly precise in describing Canada’s health care system, it would be fair to call it Fascist, or even more precisely, corporatist. The government of Canada sets the payment rates (but doesn’t nationalize the providers) and providers comply. That’s corporatism and Benito Mussolini was a huge fan of it.
Competition in health insurance, by the way, is against the law in Canada.
“The Canada Health Act (CHA) specifically and explicitly forbids any private insurance scheme which would insure services already provided by Canada’s national health care plan,” writes Nadeem Esmail of Canada’s preeminent think tank, the Fraser Institute. “This system of care forbids Canadians from seeking alternative expedited care without bearing the entire cost. If Canadians want to buy private care in the US, or expedited care in Canada, they need to have the money or the political clout to get it.”
Meanwhile, the Fraser Institute reports (PDF) that waiting time for referrals has shrunk from 18.3 weeks to 17.3 weeks:
Total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged
across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, fell from 18.3 weeks in 2007 to
17.3 weeks in 2008.
WooHoo! A whole week’s improvement! Maybe MoveOn.org can put that little gem in its ads.
ADDENDUM the next day: Corporatism isn’t the easiest political abstraction to grasp. Answers.com has a useful explanation of corporatism. Corporatism boils down to this: government tells industry and labor what to do and they do it for the supposed good of the country. The recent bailouts are corporatist in nature as Seeking Alpha observes: “The idea that certain large, politically connected private firms are essential to commonweal and must be supported at all costs by the state is quite the essence of ‘Mussolini-style Corporatism.’” America has, unfortunately, been drifting in a corporatist direction in recent decades but the Bush and Obama administrations have accelerated this drift.
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More Blog Posts by Matthew Vadum
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/03/21/canadas-fascist-health-care-sy
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Pingback| 3.21.09 @ 8:00PM
Canada’s Fascist Health Care System — But As For Me links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Danny| 3.21.09 @ 8:41PM
Canada has immense healthcare. Anyone who doubts this should see the movie "Sicko". Britain also has great healthcare. As a traveler who got ill in Britain I can vouch for how good it is.
Only those who have no first-hand experience with universal health care, who've never use it themselves and not been inside the facilities and used the system bad-mouth it. It's like bad-mouthing the ride inside a Rolls Royce saying it's bumpy without ever setting foot in one.
Jeremiah| 3.21.09 @ 8:55PM
Now we learn from Vadum that Canada has a fascist healthcare system.
Good grief. Is this guy being paid to post this nonsense?
Fascism is the far end of capitalism, not socialism. The political spectrum, moving from left to right, begins with radical communist and then moves to socialist, liberal (the United States is the best example), reactionary (what people here think the US should be), and fascist.
Jeremiah| 3.21.09 @ 8:59PM
If you want a corporatist healthcare system, Vadum, look at the US system. Here the government props up an unfair, inefficient, and byzantine corporatist system that benefits not ONE person reading the Am. Spectator but instead enriches the same Masters of the Universe who have so dreadfully screwed up the global economy in recent years.
It's magnificent nonsense to look from Canada's system, the reputed murderer of the Broadway actress, and see the US as an ideal system.
God. What a stupid post.
Starry| 3.21.09 @ 9:01PM
What a numb-nut. Just last week England's Medical Assoc. released figures of their soaring rate of hospital infections, and the thousands of unnecessary deaths that have resulted. MRSA and staph infections are at an all time high. I've heard nightmarish healthcare stories from friends who have visited England. Waiting times are very long; even for seriously ill cancer patients. Of course, anybody who cites fatboy Michael Moore as a source, is a moron beyond belief. 'Rolls Royce'--LOL!
CH| 3.21.09 @ 9:03PM
She wouldn't have died here, Jeremiah. You are the moron.
Daphne| 3.21.09 @ 9:06PM
Benito looks like Hillary in a beret. Snark.
Pingback| 3.21.09 @ 9:30PM
The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Canada's Fascist Health Care … links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
jacksmith| 3.21.09 @ 10:09PM
Finally, the time has arrived to fix Americas Healthcare crisis, and Americas healthcare nightmare. Hundreds of thousands of you are killed needlessly every year by your healthcare delivery system in a rush to profit. And because of a rush to profit Hundreds of thousands more of you are needlessly dying from treatable illness that people in other developed and civilized countries don't DIE! from. Rich, middle class, and poor alike. Insured, and uninsured. Men, women, children, and babies.
Additionally, thousands more of you are driven into financial ruin, and bankruptcy just because you, or one of your loved ones got sick or injured. And all of this is happening at a time when America spends twice as much of it's GDP (Gross Domestic Productivity) on health care than any other country in the developed world. Individual Americans spend about ten times as much on health care as any other people in the developed world. This is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. AND IT MUST END!
But before we can truly fix this healthcare crisis and disgrace, everyone needs to clearly understand what the problem is. And everyone needs to clearly understand the real enormity of the problem. The problem is that HEALTHCARE AND MEDICAL DELIVERY IN AMERICA IS SEVERELY CORRUPTED AND COMPROMISED BY GREED! AND THE PRIVATE FOR PROFIT MOTIVE. And it is corrupted, and compromised IN EVERY ASPECT, AND EVERY PLACE OF HEALTHCARE AND MEDICAL DELIVERY. Unfortunately for all Americans, compromised healthcare ALWAYS results in needless suffering, injury, disability, and or death. Which is exactly what is happening now in America in shocking numbers.
Health care is NOT! a private for profit business. Healthcare is an essential public service. Like police, and fire. And healthcare is also a human right! PRIVATE FOR PROFIT HEALTHCARE IS AN OXYMORON, AND AN IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL PERVERSION OF HEALTHCARE AND HUMAN RIGHTS.
So how do we fix this healthcare disgrace? I believe the fix for Americas healthcare disaster is essentially the same thing that every other developed country in the World has essentially done. "NOT FOR PROFIT, TAX PAYER SUPPORTED, SINGLE PAYER, AUTOMATIC, FREE UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL. Essentially HR676 (enhanced, and expanded medicare for all). Just like every other CIVILIZED! country in the developed World has. There is no other way to truly fix and reform our current disastrous healthcare delivery system.
All Universal health care systems work best when everyone participates. But I know that the healthcare lobby, and some politicians will try and undermine "Not For Profit, Tax payer supported, Single payer, Automatic, Free Universal Healthcare for all" by falsely claiming that it will limit your choice, and require you to participate.
So, I propose that everyone be included in the national plan unless they choose to opt out. If you opt out and need medical care the national plan will insure your provider that they will be reimbursed under the rules for members in the national plan. But those who opted out, and their insurer will be responsible for the FULL! cost to the national plan for providing your care if you or your private insurer fails to reimburse the provider or the national plan in a timely manor to at least the standards of the national plan.
Including reporting you to credit agencies, withholding of taxes, leans, and garnishment of wages for unpaid medical bills. Just like you have now under private for profit healthcare, and private for profit health insurance.
Further, people who opted out will be required to provide proof of financial responsibility for future illness or be required to participate in the national plan. And everyone with children will be required to participate in the national plan. Or provide proof of insurance coverage on each child to the standards of the national plan. It will be against the law to report anyone in the national plan to a credit agency for unpaid medical bills.
Frankly, only a dope would want to opt out of the national plan and opt to keep our current disastrous private for profit medical, and insurance plans. But they will be free to choose. The most important thing is that the vast majority of Americans that want the protection, benefits, and higher quality of a universal national plan have that choice.
You see, one of the most important aspects of a universal healthcare system is easy access, and patient protection. This is accomplished by having a single payer without a conflict of interest in patient care. And by having a payer who has the power to enforce minimum standards of excellence in healthcare delivery for everyone in the plan. This is much of what Medicare does now for senors. "Aeger Primo" (The patient comes first). Unfortunately in our healthcare system the patient comes last. We are just a peace of meat to them. Cash cows to be slaughtered for profit.
So this is IT! my fellow Americans, My fellow human beings, My fellow World Citizens. And my fellow Cyber Warriors. :-) The time has come. D day. H hour. HEALTHCARE REFORM THIS YEAR! Let no one stand in our way. Contact your representative and tell them you want "Not For Profit, Tax Payer Supported, Single Payer, Automatic, Free Universal healthcare for all. And tell them you want that choice now. Tell them you want President Obama's budget passed without delay. President Obama's budget is brilliant. And exactly what is needed now.
President Obama, and his allies will need all the support you can give them. The healthcare lobby will try to take out his people if they can, like they did with Tom Daschle and Nancy Killefer. And they will try to neutralize President Obama's popularity, and political power. Or they will try to take him down someway. Don't stand for it. If they attack him. Go after them ten times harder and remove them from office. We had an election. And you the people chose President Obama's leadership, and change agenda. Let no one in government disrespect the will of the American people and remain in office.
Let's get this healthcare reform done now my fellow Americans. This year. Take no prisoners.
God Bless All Of You
Jack Smith — Working Class :-)
http://jacksmithworkingclass.blogspot.com/
(http://jacksmithworkingclass.blogspot.com/)
John| 3.21.09 @ 10:24PM
Ultimately, slavery requires of it the acquiescence of the slave. -- My old man... in 1969... on why he was a professional soldier....
Socialized medicine is a sham sop to the masses. First, it is not free. NOTHING in this world is free... NOTHING... Second, it is inferior and fundamentally unsound because it is unsupportable. The poor haven't the resources to pay for it and since the rich have been taxed into oblivion to pay for the rump... there is nothing left. Thirdly, the powerful (who are now privileged through government or heredity... and not merit) will not live under the same system as the hoi polloi. They will find some way to pay for what they want, so they are fully insulated from the negative effects.
The nationalized health care systems of the Social Democrat societies are atrocious messes, that only treat the healthy... and use class envy and hatred to salve their patients' gaping wounds.
So under a system of socialized medicine... at least the masses know that everyone will be treated with equal malpractice.
The great Nyah!...
Silly, stupid, lazy, envious serfs...
--John
Al Kell| 3.21.09 @ 11:23PM
Hmm... it took 4.5 hours before Ms. Richardson got to see the first physician... That included an hour on the road... but after that it took at least an hour and a half before actual trauma specialists saw the woman.... because they had none at the (local) hospital 80 miles away from the ski resort had to transfer her elsewhere.... Now given that the ambulance drivers surely had cell or radio communication to the hospital, that means they had an idea of the seriousness of the injury for about three hours prior to criticality... and up to one and a half hours prior to her arrival at the original hospital destination where consideration for her injuries could have been anticipated and set up ( in the USA anyway)....
Malpractice and negligence suits would surely be on the way in the U.S. for this type of non-urgent treatment of a potentially lethal situation...
Only in Canada... you aren't going to get very far trying to sue the government... Where government is involved there is group complicity, group negligence, group guilt, thus no one is held responsible resulting in group absolvence or at worst a group toungue lashing......
Yep it's cheaper up there in Canada (and works O.K. if you are healthy to begin with) but you get what you pay for...
By the way... 82% of the people in the USA are content with their health care.
Interested Coservative| 3.22.09 @ 12:07AM
Jeremiah - a quick point - fascism is not the far end of capitalism. It's still over there on the socialist/communist/government side of the spectrum. Classic liberalism, reactionary, libertarianism, and perhaps anarchy hold on to the right end of the list, but there's far too much government involvement in fascism for it to be included in "right" wing movements - not that other leftists try mightily, but they're basically arguing amongst themselves.
Lynne | 3.22.09 @ 12:17AM
Well – sort of a load of crap by a sensationalist over the overblown love of celebrities and sport heroes. Oh dear the poor celebrity and who gives a hoot about any other poor sucker here or there to whom something similar happens.
We have helicopter service here between my small city of Lethbridge, the mountains, and Calgary. So it ain't all true. Granted Quebec has its own way of doing things, but that does not reflect on the whole country.
Why are Americans so afraid of giving basic care to all of their citizens? Anyone here can still augment that with multitudes of insurance policies according to their desires and needs. The rich are not denied the best in our system, but the poorest can still see a doctor and get emergency assistance unlike in the States. Richest country in the world pure dodo! It's really the poorest spiritually (despite the number of churches and professed religious) when it comes to overall caring (individuals all over the world discounted). Money and stuff rule in the States.
Are Americans afraid someone will not make enough money if all are cared for? Does the Insurance lobby system control things so much there? The financial crash had better swell into insurance revamping too as far as I am concerned fat cats sucking our blood in cahouts with the pharmacy lobbyists and companies. Another "Tea Party" yet to come . . .
If I lived in the States I would not be able to have healthcare as I do not earn above the current poverty level. None of my four jobs give me benefits. Obama wants to keep the health insurance attached to job benefits. Great - with all the current job losses how will those people keep themselves and their kids totally well and never need medical services of any kind? How many more will lose their homes to pay their medical costs?
Ah, but then their losses support the television reality shows perpetuating the propaganda machine of brave Americans with public bleeding hearts who ride their white chargers in to build monster homes for the sick and homeless to appease the watching public about what a great country they live in. One home a week for 13 weeks – cool. Mega corporations trot out their best furniture and appliances getting the closing credits about how caring they are. More publicity to increase sales. (Yes, there are lots of individuals who are doing great work but it is the big picture that affects the whole here.)
Why can't your black and white culture see that both ways could work together? The Canadian system is not all one way or the other unlike the opinions of fools like this. The poorest can still see a doctor and get emergency assistance and those with extensive insurance programs can get what they want. Oh – and you will always hear the sensationalist stories of those who have to leave the country for this and that reason (I am not saying they are unnecessary - just more newsworthy than the thousands of daily positives that stay in Canada). Most actually have some or all of their out-of-country costs covered by the Canadian system once they return. It just ain't that bad.
The horror of it is that provinces like Alberta are dismantling the healthcare we do have to install an American multi-leveled system bowing more and more to pharmacy and insurance corporate desires.
'Nuff said for now . . .
Lynne
Teri Graves | 3.22.09 @ 1:00AM
I'd like to comment on Quin Hillyer's article, "Monstrously Anti-life": This is a brilliant description of President Obama's view of the life of an unborn child. I fully agree, it is MURDER to do abortions! Obama's position on the life of an unborn child, as well as elderly people who are disabled or sick. I believe it is an outrage for taxpayers to have to pay for this atrocity, of abortion!! I not only believe abortion should be outlawed, but it should be unanimously considered MURDER by all in the USA!! Let's call it as it is! It is nothing less than taking the life of another human being, and an innocent one at that. I believe abortion is the most hideous that has been legalized, along with euthenasia of older people, when their care gets to be too much. The more USA citizens who speak out on abortion as MURDER, I think, the better it will be. The more people who let Pres. Obama know their views on abortion, or KILLING of innocent human beings, also, the better. He needs to know how Americans feel on this very important issue. Thank you for your article. I hope many more Americans see things the way you do. If they do, then I believe we're on the right track!
Mara| 3.22.09 @ 2:15AM
Occasionally, I read of people who supposedly received excellent healthcare while traveling in Europe, Canada and the UK and though they may have received good emergency medical care, which is all a non citizen gets, that's hardly enough experience to claim the entire system is excellent. My husband traveled worldwide for many years as an expat worker, and I know for a fact that the only care non-citizens get is emergency and it’s only long enough for stabilization and medical evacuation to their home country. This is why my husband always carried insurance such as SOS. I understand SOS now has clinics in several countries that offer more services to insured travelers and expats than they would get in the hospital ER of the country they happen to be in, but claiming short term emergency care as knowledge of the system is pure nonsense.
Randy | 3.22.09 @ 3:40AM
All Universal health care systems work best when everyone participates. But I know that the healthcare lobby, and some politicians will try and undermine "Not For Profit, Tax payer supported, Single payer, Automatic, Free Universal Healthcare for all" by falsely claiming that it will limit your choice, and require you to participate.
anonymous descendent| 3.22.09 @ 6:36AM
so, Danny, if I watch a movie, does that mean I know what Socialized medicine is like? Or do my many years having lived in the economically and culturally impotent European Police States count for anything? And do I bother asking rhetorical questions to the mentally neutered who are doomed to be run over by China or Russia - whichever ends up being the bigger hornet's nest after the American Republic is finally eviscerated by the mental midgets of the Socialist Religion? Malign American principles, ignore history and ideas, but rest assured, your free dumb thought will not be tolerated in a collectivist super state - and that's what awaits all Socialist countries after their protector, America, falls. Enjoy your short term sanctimony & short lived health care.
Mary Canada | 3.22.09 @ 7:26AM
WHAT the heck is Matthew Vadum writing about? Is he suggesting then that we dump universal health care for insurance run by corporate capitalists -- as in the US? So, then, how does the poor get health care if we do that? Idiot. Maybe there is a better way, but universal health care: right now is the best way we have to make sure all are entitled no matter what their financial status.
And further, Ms. Richardson died in a tragic accident. Do you think she checked to see if there we helicopters available in case she fell... a chopper to take her to a US HOSPITAL!
And for the love of humanity, let's not make her the bloody poster child for a push on for helmets on the slope, or against universal health care. Let's not do that to anyone.
Martin Ellingham| 3.22.09 @ 8:38AM
I lived in the UK for four years and was eligible for National Health Service care and luckily had private insurance my employer paid for. The UK papers and television stations would periodically feature sob stories of British citizens who were denied treatment and had to sell or mortgage their house to pay for treatment in the US. They had waiting lists for cancer specialists that were longer than the survivability period for the cancer without treatment. Accident and Emergency centers (their version of an ER) were far less common than those in the U.S. In a major city like London, you had to go across town to get a MRI. The standard caregiver for births was a midwife (and there is a shortage of those, especially English speaking ones) instead of an OBGYN. Neonatal care was separate from birthing and could be sent a hundred miles away.
Due to budget shortfalls, the first thing that gets cut in the NHS are custodial services. Because of this, the UK has a severe MRSA outbreak in all of their hospitals. Families of patients have to clean their loved ones beds (they don’t have semi-private rooms either, all wards, many of them mixed gender) and maintain 24 hour vigils to keep them clean. Hospital closures and consolidations were made for political reasons due to what ever party their Member of Parliament was from.
NHS was geographically convenient and completely free so I sought them out first when we had an issue. My daughter injured her ankle on a trampoline, we went to our local surgery where a nurse looked at it, poked it and declared it a sprain. She wrapped it with an Ace bandage and provided instruction to come back in two weeks if the swelling hadn’t gone away. We then took our daughter to a private doctor, who x-rayed the ankle and explained children require x-rays due to potential damage to growth plates. We got an air cast and crutches there.
jharp| 3.22.09 @ 10:59AM
By Matthew Vadum on 3.21.09 @ 7:11PM
So I guess we're fascists with our Medicare, VA, and Medicaid.
Good grief. The stupid here is breathtaking.
John| 3.22.09 @ 11:08AM
To quote a great and much missed American: "Well.... There you go again..."
1. Healthcare in the United States of America is near universal. The dead have a problem getting healthcare, but in almost every instance, a person living in the United States will receive healthcare if needed. Leftist Anti-American Canadian propaganda not withstanding.
Americans provide for healthcare for 100% of the elderly under Medicare - and the newest plans have small co-pays.
Americans provide healthcare for the poor via Medicare (in some cases) and Medicaid in most cases. No you don't get to go to the fancy hospital with the tony decor and medical staff wearing flowered scrubs and such... but you will get treated. Add to that the S-CHIP program that aims at covering childern up to err... um 25... (Thanks for making 25 year old's childern Bamster.. real responsible there...)
Add to the government programs, there are numberous private charitable hospitals that if they aren't forced to perform abortions by the ghouls of the Left and their Death cult... Catholic Hospitals never turn away any patient.
It is a complete lie that Americans do not have "universal healthcare" what Americans don't have is mandated mediocre care for the hoi polloi... provided by the central government.
The United States of America was not founded for the benefit of the government.
We were founded to allow us the sovereign citizen, who shares his sovereignty where common interest is prudent and voluntary, to provide for OURSELVES. Because we have the right do so.
The United States has the best medical care in the world because it is a spectrum of care, where as much of the individual treatment costs are picked up by the individual being treated as is possible. Whether those costs are out of pocket, insured, prepaid, charity, or any combination there in.
To the Canadians writing here... bragging about their limping healthcare system. If it weren't for the United States, you all would actually have to live with your own mess. You are losing doctors and specialists across the broder at a steady rate.
There is more than ample evidence for copious citations of rationed care, denied first rate treatment, waiting lists of long duration for anything but the most acute and life threatening of causes. Even then, the most expensive treatments are denied out of hand due to lack of facitities, lack of special knowledge, or lack resources.
I guarantee that on one in the Canadian government is going to wait 6 to 8 weeks for a routine MRI. I guarantee that no Canadian government official is going to wait for or be denied a hip replacement, knee replacement... or orthroscopic surgery to repair a torn tendon...
The human capacity for the denial of reality because of "pride" is universal and quite frankly pathetic.
There are lots of rich Canadians in the US... They snowbird to Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, etc... soak up the sun.. and visit the doctor.
Of course if "The One" gets his way... with socialized medicine here... well... I guess they will have to come for the warmth and good humor of their winter hosts then, won't they? Or maybe they'll just head south to the Caymans where their will be fee simple clinics for the wealthy trapped in socialized medical plans to do what the rich will always have done.
Silly socialists... operate like envious children...
r/John
somei | 3.22.09 @ 12:14PM
If you or your private insurer fails to reimburse the provider or the national plan in a timely manor to at least the standards of the national plan.
Neil| 3.22.09 @ 12:26PM
Wow, another idiotic rightwing attack job on civilized health care. Rightwingers prefer to pay more for less. They also don't want affordable coverage for Americans.
jharp| 3.22.09 @ 1:22PM
Neil| 3.22.09 @ 12:26PM
"Wow, another idiotic rightwing attack job on civilized health care. Rightwingers prefer to pay more for less."
So, so true. The wingnut brain has no ability to think outside of what their dropout leaders Hannity and Limbaugh tell them to think.
29 industrialized countries in the world use some form of a single payer health care system at half the cost of the the one country that does not, the United States. And for the same level of care.
And the brain dead retard wingnuts refuse to even consider adopting any of the concepts that every other country in the world use.
The wingnut stupidity is wholly unbelievable.
Jeremiah| 3.22.09 @ 1:36PM
John --
Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. The idea that healthcare is nearly universal in the US might suit the listeners of Rush and Hannity, who constantly make this fallacious claim.
Any research into the issue would show you how wrong you are.
It is true, the uninsured clog our emergency rooms, where very often they are given treatment at the cost of taxpayers.
This way of doling out healthcare is madness. It is dozens of times more expensive than simply assuring everyone coverage.
Private providers should be made to compete with a publicly funded system. This would drive down costs. A public system would not have to spend money DENYING people, as a private system does, and it would not have to spend money on marketing.
Medicare / Medicaid administrative costs are far below private providers, the inefficiency of which are well known to anyone in the health care industry.
John| 3.22.09 @ 2:44PM
Jeremiah... piffle...
So to impose poor healthcare on everyone is the answer to a fee simple delivery system? Right...
Healthcare is not a right. It appears no where in the Constitution...
No person can be refused treatment in any hospital in this nation for any acute illness. PERIOD. Don't hand me the Socialist Agit-prop to the contrary.. go to any emergency room at any hospital in an urban area and they are packed with people having questionable coverage... no coverage... or otherwise...
It is you who don't have a clue or aren't informed enough on the options available..
That someone who is wealthier than I am can afford to go to a tony expensive hospital for care matters not an ounce to me... FAIRNESS is the the battle cry of the ENVIOUS... It justifies their use of the brute force of government to steel from those who have.
Lastly.. you blow the lid off of your own argument by pooh-poohing Medicare and Medicade... Lemme see Jeremiah... the last time that I checked those programs were STATE programs.... STATE RUN... remember? Or is that reality just one more thing that you will substitute with your own?
If you want a rough model for what Socialized medicine will be if the One and his entourage of useful idiots, serfs, and envious perpetual children, just look at the VA...
Now then that's fair... everyone goes to the VA hospital... Nothing much gets done... but they get to go with no options... everyone else is miserable too...
Nice
BTW... I listen to Limbaugh because He agrees with me... Not the other way around. That is the case with most of his listeners. Your derisive taunts merely expose your lockstep march with Marx... projection is the Left's favorite tactic, after all.
I am no man's servant. I worship only God.
--John
Bob| 3.22.09 @ 3:19PM
John says:
"BTW... I listen to Limbaugh because He agrees with me... Not the other way around."
Perhaps you don't realize that Limbaugh has a favorability rating of about 26% and only reaches 4.7% of the population. If what you say is true, then your favorability rating would be about the same.
The fiscal conservative issue here is NOT fairness, it is cost/productivity. How are we going to create jobs here if our health care costs are 16% of GDP when countries like Taiwan achieve a cost of 7% of GDP? We need radical reform of our health care/medicare system if we want to remain competitive in this world.
Personally, I don't care about the ideology here as much as job creation. After studying health care systems, I think the ones in Canada and the U.K. have significant weaknesses. Right now, the best I've seen is Taiwan. Costs may rise to 8% or so of GDP in Taiwan, but that is still half of our cost. While I don't think we can just copy their system, they have made some very good decisions about being able to choose your own doctor and doing surgeries rather quickly. We would need some form of tort reform in addition.
I don't know the exact answer. I might guess it would be some sort of basic preventative care similar to Taiwan with our current system for specialists and elective surgery. But the key point is to lower costs. You cannot keep the current system and be competitive in job creation in the world.
Loregnum| 3.22.09 @ 3:23PM
It always amuses me when Americans who probably have never even visited here comment on the CDN health care system.
Here is the greatness of your amazing U.S. health care system you feel needs to stay the way it is:
A friend of mine had to go see the doctor last week and had to wait 2 hours despite the fact he scheduled appointment. If that wasn't bad enough, his insurance provider and doctor's office screwed up the paperwork from his move and he came within a day of having to jump through hoops to get all this started from scratch. I have never had to wait more than 10 minutes for an appointment.
Then on top of that you have those living there who don't have much if any insurance and they are screwed if something happens. So going bankrupt is what people want if someone needs surgery? Wow, a lot of love you have for your fellow man there.
Americans think that a universal health care system costs way more but it doesn't. I pay less in tax for it than my american friends do for their private insurance...and I get better coverage in the sense if something bad happens.
Yep, sounds like a great system you got three but hey, those in the medical industry there can be millionaires so I guess that is the key as it seems greed is the sole goal of many (who happen to say they are Christians despite the fact greed is against Christianity) in the U.S.
For the record, people in the medical industry here make good money and for the most part the system is decent although it could be tweaked. Also, not everything is covered. I have to pay dental, I have to pay for glasses, you still have to co-pay for prescriptions. The key is for surgeries and other such things and how is that bad? How can people there justify paying 25k for like a baby delivery?
I just chuckle at Americans who get on their high horse about universal healthcare and ignore alllllll the countries that have it which have a BETTER QUALITY OF CARE THAN THE U.S.
Why do some there not want this? I don't even like humans in general but I'd rather everyone can get treated if need be than be a selfish goof and go on about how health care "isn't a right"...why even live in a country if you don't care about the well being of the citizens living there?
It truly blows my mind how so many there cry about being patriotic yet truly aren't because they will complain about stuff like the less fortunate actually having the ability to get medical help if need be. Furthermore, it amazes me how these same people proclaim they "worship only God" yet their actions GO AGAINST GOD'S WILL. How do you proclaim to be religious yet you put up a fuss over your fellow citizens being cared for? Last time I checked God's message is one of love and not being selfish and being upset about the less fortunate getting help.
Just incredible but hey, nobody said humans have to be intelligent.
Oh and my two friends who live there both think the private system is crap and is purely based on greed but hey, again that seems to be the goal for many Americans.
Jeremiah| 3.22.09 @ 3:36PM
The general direction of western culture has been towards liberalism.
Liberalism, broadly construed, is a political ideal that seeks to extend autonomy -- political and economic -- to as many people as possible.
Thus it is at odds with socialism, which seeks equality at the expense of liberty if necessary.
Liberalism is the antedote to socialism and corporatism alike.
What is the liberal solution to healthcare problems?
As always, it's not reducible to a Hannity-sized slogan or mantra.
Generally liberalism advocates for a layered system that mixes the private and the public to maximize coverage and minimize cost. Ideally, the system would harvest the advantages of the market while avoiding its downside -- exclusion of those without means.
Essentially, that IS what we are doing now. Only, true to form, we aren't admitting it, so it prevents us from doing it as efficiently as we might.
There is NO reason why those with private coverage that satisfies them need fear the loss of what they have. A good public system would simply assure there was something to pick up the slack were there private coverage to be lost or inadequate. It would also force private concerns to COMPETE with public, bringing down costs and ensuring more fairness.
Pingback| 3.22.09 @ 3:45PM
Topics about Religion » The American Spectator : AmSpecBlog : Canada's Fascist Health links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Jeremiah| 3.22.09 @ 3:57PM
I think it's great to joust with you all about healthcare, but, not to put too fine a point on it, the two pieces by Vadum prompting this discussion are lame and foolish. Who is this clown, anyway?
Voice of Reason| 3.22.09 @ 6:46PM
If universal healthcare would mean that Jeremiah and jharp could get treatment for their obvious PMS symptoms, I would vote for it!
Jeremiah| 3.22.09 @ 7:07PM
Voice of Reason --
PMS?
Oh... I get it. See, it's funny because I'm a man, and you're suggesting I have PMS. Right. A man of sparkling, dazzling wit. Ouch! O, boy. You really got me. Because see -- you wrote "PMS," like "Premenstrual Syndrome" -- it's kind of like that Rush Limbaugh joke, PMSNBC. Get it? Do you? Because it's really funny, if you say to a guy, "You have PMS." It's sort of -- I don't know. Witty, like. Clever. It shows your clever, and witty, and more likeable than the other guy. Smarter too. It's really funny.
Starry| 3.22.09 @ 7:32PM
Jeremiah--that's rich; the azz-clown asking who Vadum is. Remember your place, troll.
Bill Bailey| 3.22.09 @ 8:19PM
Loregnum is a wacko. He or she should be institutionalized.
Voice of Reason| 3.22.09 @ 10:18PM
Jeremiah, next time please keep your comments pithy. You're not as clever as you think.
danny| 3.22.09 @ 11:13PM
voice of reason, jeremiah and jharp are liberals. they are pissed. they were born pissed. they will forever be pissed. their time has arrived. they are in control of our government, and still they are pissed. nothing we can say or do will cause them to become unpissed. they are liberals. try to do as i do and ignore the ignoramuses and have a great day anyway!!!
Bob| 3.23.09 @ 8:42AM
Danny, you are quite funny. You cannot read this board objectively and say that you far right whackos aren't "pissed". You hate the government, you hate your leaders, you hate the best universities, you hate libs, you hate abortionists, you hate gays, etc. Have you ever heard that people who throw stones should not live in glass houses?
Dan| 3.23.09 @ 10:47AM
Universal Health Care's purpose is to provide enough care to maintain a healthy work force. People over 50, and those under five months, and those with long term illnesses have their care transferred to those who are in the work force.
It defers or denies care to those who are not in the work force to do this. Most people go pretty good care when they are young, and do not notice. Even the older citizens may not know the difference when their doctor says there is "nothing we can do".
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.23.09 @ 11:54AM
It is quite pathetic that those on here cheerleading for single payer have never had firsthand experience with it. Axelrod Astroturfers, please understand something: the experience of citizens of single payer systems and the US is NOT equivalent, it is NOT the same. Allow a Canadian to enlighten you.
Single payer systems are somewhat equivalent to the USA in two respects: primary care and emergency care. That's it. In primary care, if you can find a physician willing to take new patients, you will be able to have your flu looked after. The cost of drugs, surprise, you pay for, not the government (except the poor and aged). Which means you still have to have health insurance.
For emergency care, you will, like in the US, be stabilized and treated. However, if you need crutches, drugs, or other medical devices, you better get out your checkbook or have private insurance. Again, only the poor or elderly get these things "free".
Now, if you have anything that involves a regime of treatment, be prepared for waiting, waiting, waiting. Need a hip replacement. Wait. Need to see a specialist, be prepared to wait. Need specialized life saving or experimental treatment, wait, die or find a specialist or clinic in the US to treat you. Again, wait, wait, wait.
Why must you wait? Because like all centralized planned systems, the planners have no real idea how much demand there will be for a particular treatment but do have fixed budgets. The end result is purchase of fewer medical diagnostic systems, less use of innovative treatments, less access overall.
Also, because the payments for treatment are fixed and taxation high (hello Obama administration), no physician or group of physicians have an incentive to put in overtime, to acquire diagnostic equipment for their own clinics, or even stay in the country.
In sum, Axelrod Astroturfers, what you get is a medical care system that is not equivalent to the US system at half the price. What you get is a lesser system that muddles through and cynically relies on the suffering and death of its patients to assist it in doing so. Where's the humanity in that?
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.23.09 @ 12:00PM
Another point, Canadians who get sick go bankrupt too. Government does not provide long term or short term disability insurance, you are responsible for that. If you are not providential, you too, will lose your house if you suffer from long term disease or suffer a serious injury.
Richard Fallis | 3.23.09 @ 12:13PM
Canadian deathcare is awful.
I waited three years for gallstone surgery.
My Uncle was sent home with an enema and laxitive from the Queensway Carleton in Ottawa WITH A RUPTERED BOWEL. No MRI's or CT scans available there doncha know!
My mom was kicked out of Queensway Carleton hospital in Ottawa not knowing her name while still in heart-failure, and then at the French Ottawa General, she was just an old anglo woman 'ooo you 'ave to take 'ome wit you now'.
They said she would live another year. I was feeding her Boost through a syringe for heaven's sake. I got a shyster lawyer and dared them to move her. They backed down. She died six days later.
And I was out $100 thousand for the experience.
Since I left fascist Canada, things have sooo improved. A recent report showed the worst ER waiting times in Ottawa was at the Montfort hospital. 30 hours on average! And the best?! The Queensway Carleton with ONLY a TEN HOUR wait at the ER.
Fascists and idiots all bound up into one.
Teleprompter Messiah| 3.23.09 @ 12:29PM
Richard Ellis: Shhh! You are being unpatriotic talking down healthcare in Canada. Don't you know that it is the one thing that separates Canadians from their benighted, dumb and greedy American neighbours?
You are also spitting on the visage of Saint Tommy Douglas, sir! You are only supposed to talk of social solidarity, caring, compassion and greater humanity.
Stick to the script: Canadian healthcare is a wonderful thing and Canadians are better people than Americans for having it.
Winsont Smith| 3.26.09 @ 5:31PM
Ms. Canada, are you esl, ignorant, or just stupid? I hate to resort to the uncivil adhominem that the left so desperately clings to. But I'm losing my patience. Talking to a wall is less exasperating than talking to the left. And I actually have a point with the above insult.
Anyhow, Ms. Canada Have you ever actually been to the US? B/c a trip to an American ER might really shock you! B/c in addition to all the first world luxuries like helicopters, CT scans, MRIs, there are big bold signs that state in multiple languages that NO ONE will be turned away for an inability to pay! Got it? (I suffer from acute asthma attacks, and if in Quebec, who knows, perhaps oxygen is budgeted. My point is that I've seen that sign in many hospitals, many times. And I get great life saving care here in the US. My insurance is too much b/c tax payers pick up the tab for the above mentioned parasites, and the HMO system stifles free competition. But I am alive and not trapped in a system that neglects and robs me.) No ONE, including illegal aliens, who US tax payers routinely pick up the tab for can be denied care. Is that too much reading comprehension for the mental challenges that Leftism seems to inculcate?! (I know I use to be a leftist, and I remember clinging to desperate defensive embarrasing arguments b/c I honestly had nothing else.)
BTW hmos and such are only a problem in that they tend to act like government beaureacrats and stifle true competition. True free market competition is what health care truly needs. Sure that of the US is the freest and most advanced, but nonetheless could still use more untethering. Socialism is not the answer. And once more, no one is dying from lack of treatment in the US due to finances! There's even indigent care, not to mention medicaid. Canadians are dying on waiting lists and such, AFTER paying 60% income tax plus premiums. Government taxes have already ruined them, losing everything because of a medical crises is thus hardly even an issue for them in the first place. duh. Even a rich and famous person like Richardson was ensured death because a huge province like Quebec provides third world care. (The facts of the case undeniably bear this out-it's not a debate.) Who doesn't understand what country's health care now, huh?! As all the socialized medicine twits defensively claim when you destroy their illusions and sacred cows.
"WHAT the heck is Matthew Vadum writing about? Is he suggesting then that we dump universal health care for insurance run by corporate capitalists -- as in the US? So, then, how does the poor get health care if we do that? Idiot. Maybe there is a better way, but universal health care: right now is the best way we have to make sure all are entitled no matter what their financial status.
And further, Ms. Richardson died in a tragic accident. Do you think she checked to see if there we helicopters available in case she fell... a chopper to take her to a US HOSPITAL!
And for the love of humanity, let's not make her the bloody poster child for a push on for helmets on the slope, or against universal health care. Let's not do that to anyone. "
Daphne| 3.27.09 @ 2:00AM
Simply stated: If Natasha Richardson had been skiing in the U.S.--she would have lived. Too bad for her young sons.
OSUCDN| 3.29.09 @ 7:35PM
Daphne...are you kidding me???
Can I borrow your crystal ball...you must have one because you seem to know for certain that Natasha Richardson would have lived.
Yes, her death is a tragedy, and I feel sorry for her family's loss.
BUT, you seem to know a whole lot about nothing!
Matthew Vadum | 3.29.09 @ 11:19PM
Such ignorant nonsense from trolls.
Clearly, Jeremiah, judging from Jeremiah| 3.21.09 @ 8:55PM and Jeremiah| 3.21.09 @ 8:59PM, you do not understand the meaning of the term corporatism. You fling it around as if it meant "being pro-corporation." It does not.
Fascism is a variant of socialism, not capitalism, or arguably an ugly hybrid of the two in which the state calls the shots. The left-right dichotomy is not the most useful measure to rely on in these discussions.
Thank you for your ahistorical lecture.
Paul McGlade| 3.31.09 @ 10:35AM
It is impossible to obtain a fully free market in healthcare.
The customers in healthcare are, by definition, a captive market.
If I want to buy a new TV, I will shop around, based on my requirements and budget, and if I cannot find a provider which gives me what I want at the right price, I don't buy.
If enough people feel as I do, the market will drop its prices.
If I get cancer, I frankly don't have the luxury of shopping around at length or passing on the service altogether. If I die, it doesn't make much of a dent in the future profitability of the healthcare industry. How is there a serious motivation for price competitiveness?
Likewise, it is a highly specialist market and provided by a highly fragmented set of individuals. If I go to my doctor and he recommends a CT scan, I am not really in a position to determine if he or she is just covering his ass and if all I will get is billed and a large, unnecessary dose of X-Rays.
Unless I go off and get extensive medical training, I am reliant on the word of the provider, who is generally constrained by only very general treatment guidelines.
If that provider is substantially motivated by profit, treatment habits he picked up 20 years ago, and perhaps also by feeling he has to provide an impressive barrage of costly treatment and diagnosistics as a default - as well as by his altruism - then it is going to cost me more than I actually need to pay. I just gotta do what I'm told.
It's like if you take your truck in for a service and they find a whole bunch of other things to fix. At the back of your mind, you wonder how much of it is bogus. But if you're the truck, you're much less likely to argue.
sarablue| 4.2.09 @ 1:55PM
I am a Canadian living in the USA. I have lived in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. I have never had an issue with the Universal Health Care and I have been given first class care. Maybe some of you should visit a Canadian ER or clinic or Doctor's office so you are not bias. I am just starting to get my head around the Health Care insurance and system here in the USA. My new fear and greatest fear living here is losing my health insurance coverage.
Ali| 4.16.09 @ 8:02PM
It's just a fluke that I have come across this rather strange site. Who or what is Matthew Vadum? I've never read a more ignorant diatribe than he has presented about the Canadian Health Care System. My hubby spent 22 months at a major Ontario hospital with four operations required. All it cost me was the gas to get to the hospital. I doubt this would be possible in the USA. His waiting time in emerge was measured by minutes, not hours. The care he got was superb. What is Vadum afraid of? As for Natasha Richardson, she would have died even if the accident had happened in the US as she refused immediate first aid , and care. The whole thing was tragic, and should never be used as an example for the good or evil of a healthcare system.
Trackback| 8.7.09 @ 6:18AM
fix my credit, on fix my credit, links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Healthyone| 8.13.09 @ 5:06PM
The author of this article is SO blatantly out of touch with reality it's scary. To think that some Americans actualy read and believe such BS is hard to fathom.
Firstly, Canadian healthcare is NOT FREE. Canadians pay a monthly premium, SOME on hardship and disability, low income etc. get a subsidized cost but still pay monthly for "insurance".
However if that insurance isn't up to date, you still get care, but they will keep adding up the monthly fees like a cabbie until you pay them. If you don't pay them, thye will eventually retain your tax return to recover unpaid costs. Much better than simply being refused treatment as would happen in the US when exoritant insurance icosts aren't up to date.
As for Mrs. Richardson, she was lucid and speaking normally, both Richardson and staff at the resort said the ambiulance wasn't needed and Richardson herself REFUSED medical attention.
Get your f''n facts straight you BS slinging right wing freak!
To think that you consider yourself an editorial jounalist is a complete joke, you are a fear monger at best. Scared to see an improvement in your own system that helps Americans live as long as Canadians, yes Canadians do live longer than Americans.
Musolini? Canada elects its leaders in a free democratic system; leaders that heed Canadian citizen's wishes a lot better than US presidents fuelled by corporate dollars heed your own.
If yuo actually get a clue one day and know what you are talking about, try again.
As it is very unlikely to become a reality in your biased, one track and blinded mind, find a new career, all you do here is instill unjust fears into yuor fellowman's minds.
Nice job, how do you sleep at night?
Duke| 4.2.10 @ 3:26AM
I think we (as a human species, states, groups gangs, families and individuals) need to realize that profit in business is not the end all be all. The only important thing is deciding what our needs are and filling that need. I know as a fact that I need to food, shelter, medical care at some point, energy and some sort of entertainment/distraction to keep me from going nuts. If we ever get over our obsession with consumerism and excess we might realize that we have enough food, shelter and medical equipment and drugs to completely fill the needs of every man woman and child in the western hemisphere. So here's a great idea! Let's buy into the advertisements spoon fed to us by our governments and corporate overlords and fight and squabble over the natural resources and materials and man-hours of labor that not only belong to us, but are produced by us. When will we stand up and take control of our rights, lands and resources? When will we start taking care of our neighbors, family, friends and community? When we take responsibility for ourselves and our community? We can all have health care, food and shelter and enough time left over to build a model train set, go golfing or play some hockey. It's our choice what we do with our time on this planet. Will you count money and ignore the needs of your community or will you treat disease and injury when the need arises? If I pass you in the street and see you are in need of help, I will ask if you need a hand. And I don't care if you want me to have access to health care or not. But remember, when the people like me are all gone, you'll be on your own and deserve every thing you get.
Gergana | 1.4.11 @ 5:40PM
I agree with jacksmith
penis enlargemen | 1.4.11 @ 5:40PM
Freaking article ...
Danny M | 7.2.11 @ 6:24AM
Good read
Sites | 9.23.11 @ 3:10AM
Canadian healthcare is better than of their neghbors