The American Spectator

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 9:39AM

People have no sense these days. Pumped up by the media's constant hyping of how bad things are, they hit the stores at the crack of dawn on "Black Friday," desperate to save money and "get there first." Well, if you buy into the insanity, it's your own fault if you get hurt, IMO. I suppose the lawsuits will now follow. Wal-Mart and Toy-R-Us will be accused of lax security.

While people in India were being slaughtered by terrorists, gullible Americans were trampling each other to save fifty bucks on a Plasma TV.

Where has common sense gone??

Robert Stacy McCain| 11.29.08 @ 9:44AM

I'm just trying to picture the scene as these guys were getting ready to leave the house: "Honey, make sure you've got your MasterCard -- oh, and don't forget the 9mm!"

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 10:07AM

WendyG -- There is no common sense when 30% of the men in your community are in jail and unemployment reaches 20%. These people want to participate in the good life like you do. You can afford common sense, they can't. They don't take vacations or eat out much, so for them, a new TV is important.

If you really want to make social commentary, I'd advise you to get an apartment in one of these communities for a couple of months. I grew up (albeit years ago) in this kind of community. Then tell me if you would feel comfortable walking the streets without a weapon? I didn't get in many fights when I was young, but had to join a gang for protection. This was the best way to avoid violence. We didn't do crime, we just banded together to protect one another.

The answer to this problem is a growth economy and jobs -- not asking for common sense. It's amazing to me how many fellow Republicans just don't understand what's happening in our country.

Robert Stacy McCain| 11.29.08 @ 10:25AM

Bob: Somehow I don't think Palm Desert, Calif. (87% white, median household income $48,316) is the kind of gritty urban wasteland you're describing. Newark, it ain't. And a lack of economic opportunity didn't prevent these guys from investing in pistols, eh?

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 10:34AM

>>>There is no common sense when 30% of the men in your community are in jail and unemployment reaches 20%.

Oh boo hoo. So people in your community being in jail is a good reason for you to act like a criminal? There's some circular logic for you.

And unemployment is not at 20%. There you go again with the hyperbole.

I am all for arming oneself in self-defense. Arming oneself to get the cheapest price on a Tickle Me Elmo or a plasma TV is not self-defense.

Heck, if being poor and unemployed is a good reason for behaving like a criminal, let's just open the doors to all the department stores in the country and give all poor unemployed people everything they want and need.

Then what Bob? When the plasma TV breaks, who will fix it? Does the repair man deserve to be paid to fix it, or should he just eat the cost, in deference to the poor unemployed person??

This country was built on the hard work and common sense of people who came here with nothing, and expected nothing. People like so many of the Vietnamese who left their country in rickety boats - and came here worked their asses off. I know such a person. She came here with nothing. She started a modest business which has grown - and now has two kids who will attend Stanford and become doctors. Never accepted a penny from the govt. and didn't whine about her circumstances - break the law, using her situation as an excuse.

Thomas| 11.29.08 @ 10:43AM

All projecting aside, this is simply a case of thuggery in the Toys R Us. This holiday season has already been marked by stupid needless violence and death and I am not referring to Mumbai. Something is seriously wrong in this country, and the world, when violence and destruction is becoming a way of life for an ever increasing percentage of the population. Perhaps there is a reason for it in the slums of Sao Paolo or Darfur, but not in the richest country on the planet. I fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 10:47AM

RSM, I grew up in California. These people were most likely not from Palm Desert, but from Indio which has a median household income of $35K and is only 6 miles away. Indio is about 2/3 Hispanic and per capita income is about $13K. The average male makes $21K per year.

When you grow up in a poor community, you realize that the nice stores aren't located in your community. You travel to the closest upscale community to do your shopping which, in this case, was Palm Desert.

Guns are readily available on the streets of poor communities.

RSM, think about why you jumped to the conclusion that these people were from Palm Desert. Their Hispanic surnames might have caused you to at least look at other alternatives. By the way, that is the only Toys R Us store in the entire area.

Rigorous thinking and analysis is important. I'm glad you asked the question.

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 10:56AM

Bob - lest you think I am some sort of pampered person who doesn't understand what people are going through now, I assure that is not so. I almost lost my job a couple of months ago, or at the least was due to have my hours cut back. I spent one day panicking about it, then emailed my boss with 5 suggestions of how our company could pursue new revenue streams. Some of which we have started to implement. Neccesity is the mother of invention Bob. I am not unsympathetic to the plight of those under stress now, I just have a different view on how to deal with such stress. Work harder, accept any job you can get, make something happen for yourself. And Bob, most importantly, know that others have it far worse. Appreciate what you do have. In that aspect Thomas nails it. We have so much yet we whine.

And it ain't gonna get better with The Messiah in the WH. I just had to laugh when one his supporters was videotaped, gleeful that Obama was going to pay for her health insurance - and just about everything else she needs as well. I daresay many of his followers expect big, big handouts. All the better to sit home on their asses and let people like me work weekends and pay taxes.

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 11:00AM

Wendy -- again with the assumptions and not the analysis. Unemployment in the very poor areas of our country ranges from about 15% to 23%. That is just a fact which I know you don't like to use.

That said, I fully agree with you that being poor is no excuse for acting poorly. You must have grown up in a middle to upper class neighborhood. I knew many Vietnamese that were in gangs especially in the older sections of Orange County. I've also known people of every background that have worked hard and done well. The problem, is that you can't trivialize when you do analysis.

This is the problem I have with your, and other so-cons, analysis. It is clearly true that there is no way to rationalize crime even on the basis of socio-economic status. However, if most crime is committed in lower socio-economic areas, then any public policy must address the underlying causes in order to help fix the problem. You don't seem to understand the difference.

Let me put it this way. I'd like you to go and stand on a corner in South Central LA and tell gang members they are doing the wrong things. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it. You know they will just laugh at the white b_____. However, that is exactly what you seem to believe in what you write.

Again, I encourage you to get an apartment in one of these very poor neighborhoods for a couple of months and see if you don't change some of your beliefs.

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 11:11AM

The fact is, Wendy, you DID NOT LOSE YOUR JOB. There is a big difference between not receiving and income and having your income reduced. That is a pampered view of the problems people are facing.

Now I believe that the solution is to develop strategies to increase the job base -- not use handouts. That's what makes me a Republican rather than a Democrat. I don't believe calling these people lazy is either meaningful or helpful.

You can no longer increase the job base with "trickle down" economics. That's because most of the jobs that are created with new products from large companies are produced outside the U.S. Small business is the growth engine for new jobs, although they are mostly in the service sector. But the problem there is that small business depends on the financial health of their communities. If people in their communities aren't working, small businesses don't grow. Lowering taxes no longer has a significant impact on job creation as the people who get the largest tax breaks will spend this money outside of the country. To make things better, we must increase the demand side of the equation right now, not the supply side.

As for the "messiah", I could care less what one individual, advertised on Fox News, made a stupid statement. I'm interested in policies, and so far, the policies discussed are all aimed at the demand side of the equation. We will see how they evolve.

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 11:13AM

>>>Let me put it this way. I'd like you to go and stand on a corner in South Central LA and tell gang members they are doing the wrong things. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it. You know they will just laugh at the white b_____. However, that is exactly what you seem to believe in what you write.

It might surprise you Bob to know that I lived in LA, and was there during the riot in the 90's. So I know about all the excuses that some people from So. Central give about their miseries, and their response to those miseries. I mean Reginald Denny should not gone into that neighborhood, right Bob? He sould have expected to have his head hit with a brick - what with all the poverty and unemployment in So. Central.

And how about the poster boy of the riots - Rodney King? Got a big chuck of change and continued his criminal ways. By your logic, after the riots, he was rich and therefore should have become a model citizen.

I truly believe Bob that there are many in So. Central who would think your theories are hooey. People who want a chance to make it by the sweat of their brows. They certainly deserve that chance. I don't think So. Central gang members represent anything, except maybe losers who don't have the guts to engage the world and try to better themselves.

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 11:16AM

>>>The fact is, Wendy, you DID NOT LOSE YOUR JOB.

That's right Bob. Because I scrambled to come up solutions rather than accepting the inevitable and collecting unemployment. And I assure you Bob that if I do lose my job, I'll move heaven and earth to get another one.

Mary| 11.29.08 @ 12:26PM

Perhaps there is a reason for it in the slums of Sao Paolo or Darfur, but not in the richest country on the planet. I fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

The misery and the poverty of the Italian peasant of the 19th and early 20th century never carried with it a high crime rate. I don't think that the depression was marked by a high crime rate either, was it?

The unbearable conditions probably did lead, in part, to the formation of the Mafia. But the Mafia carried with it (at the time) the understanding of family, and roots, and true self-esteem and merit, and honor, and history. And while hypocrisy may abound, it's incalculably preferable to the state of the criminal today. As La Rochefoucauld said "Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue."

And all of this has to do with morality. I can't remember the name of the gentleman who is famous for his remark about wanting to emigrate to the US because it's the only place where poor people are fat.

In the inner City you won't find people in rags. You'll find them in decent clothes and shoes. Their poverty is a poverty of values that need not be the case even if you're poor.

My parents lived in a debilitating poverty that they couldn't climb out of. My maternal grandfather (the sliver screen would even balk at his life story) worked as a powder monkey in Italy, among other things. He bought his own house in 1939. That was almost unheard of in a society where homes were handed down to the first born son, everyone else may have been paid their part when the house was sold, but everyone else rented.

When my grandmother was asked how they did it, she said we lived on bread and saliva.

Following 9/11 there wasn't much looting in NYC, IIRC.

If you have any hope of supering a dire situation, you can't afford not to have common sense. Instant gratification has been the cri de coeur for a very long time now. What matters matters. And the secular can never substitute for the richness that the history of people of faith and good will bring to the problems that society has always struggled with.

It's completely off topic, but germane. A friend of mine who is a Buddhist when addressing the topic of masturbation, with a few others who were discussing it, said it was the greatest of self-insults, and I have never forgotten that. It wasn't the secular that led him to this conclusion, it was his Buddhism. And leaving the subject itself aside, the shared universals, those rooted in permanent things are the only thing that can come to the aid of people who are descending into nihilism.

What's needed is the courage to tell people they are wrong, and there is no excuse for their being wrong, and that they must first admit and then conquer their defects.

Robert Stacy McCain| 11.29.08 @ 12:34PM

I'm loving Bob's insistence on the "Officer Kroepke" defense: "We're depraved on account of we're deprived."

I have seen no evidence -- zero, zip, nada -- that these two gunmen were poor and unemployed or that economic woe was in any way related to their feud. Furthermore, Bob doesn't seem to consider the possibility that he's got the causality backwards. Perhaps a propensity to senseless violence causes economic hardship, rather than vice-versa.

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 1:20PM

RSM, no need to get upset. Please be analytical enough to understand I said nothing about causality, that is YOUR issue. There are many studies that talk about the interrelation of crime and poverty. They ARE statistically related. The question of causality, however, is a bit more complicated. People on the extreme right and extreme left try to simplify a complex issue (i.e., anti-intellectualism). Certainly, the studies that I've seen show that poverty contributes to crime, but there must be other factors involved as well. For example, there are some very poor farming communities and poor Southern communities in which crime is very low. So poverty ALONE, is obviously contributing, but not sufficient to cause this problem. Certainly, the lowering morals of our society also contribute. In addition, the availability of firearms contribute. There are a number of factors.

However, when it comes to public policy, the question remains about what is actionable. We know that as we lower the unemployment rate, crime is reduced (not eradicated, obviously). That is addressable through public policy. Perhaps gun availability is also addressable through public policy, but I've seen no studies that show that firearm restrictions have any significant impact on the availability of guns to criminals. Legislating morality? There is no evidence that it will work with these people to any great extent either. Therefore, as a matter of public policy, we should try to affect those things that statistically (not ideologically) work. In this case, jobs. You want statistical/pragmatic solutions because you are using public funds and results for the use of those funds should be a high priority. (A conservative principle, by the way.)

Regarding whether the two gunmen came from Palm Desert or not, your argument is again, anti-intellectual and specious. The probability that two people with Hispanic surnames came from a primarily poor Hispanic community a few miles away is far higher than believing that two rich couples from Palm Desert carried guns and shopped at a crowded sale at Toys R Us. In fact, upon reading the article further, it proves I was correct in that they came from Desert Hot Springs and Cathedral City which are both over 50% Hispanic and have a significant portion of the population under the poverty line.

Your statement that senseless violence causes economic hardship is just dumb on its face. If you have any statistical evidence of that causal relationship, let me know. You are not really serious with that one, are you?

Do you really think that rich, white people would go into a store with guns have have a shootout? Or is it more likely to be gang related? It's interesting that the officer investigating this crime refused to say whether it was gang related or not....

Thomas| 11.29.08 @ 1:57PM

Good point, Bob. Another good argument for an armed citizenry. I wonder if the deceased gunmen possessed concealed carry permits.

wyobob| 11.29.08 @ 2:10PM

In my neck of the woods EVERYBODY is well armed, "Easy Rider" rifle racks are stocked with with a variety of rifles and shotguns, most homes are equiped with all sorts of weapons AND ready-service ammunition. In a town of 13,000, there are over 5,000 concealed carry permits on file. We actually had a murder about four ago; jilted lover and a shotgun, and an armed robbery last year. By national standards we should be having running gunbattles on a daily basis with all these politically incorrect weapons around but it is my opinion that the local culture sets the tone for this stupidity of a shoot-out in toy store. What is wrong with you people?? Around here if you pull a gun you're going to use it not just wave it around to try to get respect or compare chrome. I am rarely less than 15 feet from a loaded gun (with 3 spare clips) and if I pull one of the 1911As out I'm going to be going for center of mass because someone is threatening me or my family. If some of the Mumbai crazys took over the local Hilton, we'd take care of them with the weapons available in the parking lot, wouldn't need no frickin' army or special forces. Be armed isn't a bad thing, being stupid is.

BD57| 11.29.08 @ 2:18PM

Bob, with all due respect ....

these folks got into a fistfight in a ToysR'Us, then they pull guns on each other.

Tell me, what's in a ToysR'Us that's worth fighting over? What's in a ToysR'Us worth dying over?

It's a shame you had to join a gang to feel safe. Tell me - was that a good thing? Would you have rather not have had to do that?

A community that accepts that sort of thing in its midst is never going to be changed by anyone from the outside, no matter how good their intentions. Blaming the "outsiders" for not trying hard enough or not doing the right thing (or whatever) isn't going to bring about change.

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 4:20PM

So Bob, is your argument that poor Latinos have a right to shoot 'em up at Toys R Us - because they are poor and Latino?

This is a first. A bleeding heart Conservative.

Bob| 11.29.08 @ 4:33PM

BD57 -- I agree, it was a shame I had to join a gang, but you do what you have to do. If I were in a safe environment, that would not have occurred. But isn't that the point???? And I agree about a community that accepts that kind of behavior. As a teen, I went out into the community and tutored many kids (for free, of course). I was never hurt with anyone who knew me. There were some fights with gangs from other neighborhoods. I know the community cared, but with parents holding two jobs just to pay rent and put food on the table, there was not much parental guidance.

WendyG -- Remember, I did not claim causality here, only interrelation. I wish you could understand the difference. I am no bleeding heart by any stretch of the imagination, but lowering a factor that is involved in this kind of behavior is a responsible thing to do. Public policy must produce results, and you should be willing to try things even if your ideology tilts against them. Your ideology assumes you are right. What if you are not????

WendyG| 11.29.08 @ 4:39PM

>>>BD57 -- I agree, it was a shame I had to join a gang, but you do what you have to do. If I were in a safe environment, that would not have occurred. But isn't that the point????

Oh baloney. Lots of people grow up in terrible circumstances, and don't join gangs. Bob, there were people who survived German concentration camps, and came out to live productive lives. And they didn't join gangs or the Mafia or anything like that. Growing up in So. Central is a picnic compared to a Nazi death camp.

ruth| 11.29.08 @ 5:51PM

Bob, I don't know where you live, but I DO live in SoCal now and it's nuts here. This is not about lack of money as much as it is about poverty of spirit: If you work hard out here you will do well. One of the reasons I'm so angry with President Bush is his absolute betrayal of the American people over border security. Los Angeles used to be a lovely city, it was my city--now so much of it looks like a squalid third world dump. It's heartbreaking!!! What purpose did the feel-good, touchy feely, bleeding heart social policies serve? Liberalism is a disaster--it never works because it's based on chaos. If we don't care enough about our country to demand sovereign borders we don't deserve to survive. It's already happening, and I say this with a very heavy heart.

Bob| 11.30.08 @ 8:44AM

Ruth, I no longer live in SoCal, but I visit often because most of my children live there. I will never move back, not only because it has gone downhill, but because their water problems will be much more severe in the future.

What has occurred in LA and Orange County is similar to the pattern in all major cities. I don't believe that Hispanics are totally responsible for this deterioration since you find the same trends in Detroit, Milwaukee, Baltimore, Dallas, etc. I am somewhat biased since I married an Hispanic lady and my children all have graduate degrees.

However, blaming this on liberalism is not intellectually consistent. Reagan even approved amnesty and every President since has not been tough on borders. This is for three reasons. First, the Hispanic block is important to getting elected. Without them, one's chances are minimal. Secondly, border control costs money and it is just not high up in the priority scheme given our optional war in Iraq and the slumping economy. Lastly, this is a source of cheap labor for business especially in agriculture. Historically, business has been a major fund source for Republican candidates. Remember, without voters and without money it is difficult to win elections.

That said, we have agreement on strengthening our borders. I do believe there are smart ways of accomplishing this but again, the anti-intellectualism of Republicans who just want to put up a wall is burdensome. We need to concentrate on the result, not the method (which is what I've been preaching here).

We disagree that it is a "poverty of spirit". That's an old person's view of our society. We can't go back to the 50's because technology and productivity have changed our world. Good paying jobs were much easier to get decades ago as we had a strong manufacturing base and a plethora of middle management jobs. Smart people understand that the primary loss in jobs has been from productivity increases, not the exportation of jobs to other countries.

So lamenting the past is just not an effective way of looking at solving the problem. That's why I rail against the reactionary views of so-cons. We need new solutions that are inclusive, not exclusive. We need to bring Hispanics into the fold and not make them the enemy.

WendyG| 11.30.08 @ 10:09AM

>>>We need to bring Hispanics into the fold and not make them the enemy.

Bob, to a not small degree, Hispanics are social conservatives. Due in large part to their votes, Prop 8 passed in CA. The Democrat economic scare tactics did drive the Hispanic vote left this year re: vote for POTUS, but they are socially conservative, religious and pro-life overall.

Mary| 11.30.08 @ 11:08AM

Two very good reads here.

The first on the Lumpenleisure Class, including "bitter clingers."

http://tinyurl.com/677zyw

And the second on The Poverty of the Official Poverty Rate:

http://tinyurl.com/5ak3mf

Mike| 11.30.08 @ 11:58AM

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy!

Don't you know by now it's always someone else's fault? Sheesh!

It's the American Way!!

Jeremiah| 11.30.08 @ 1:42PM

You people are missing the point.

If we sold weapons at Toys R Us instead of stupid toys, and if we trained toddlers and first graders how to use them properly, this never would have happened.

A population armed to the teeth is the only way to prevent these horrible crimes.

Remember: guns don't kill people. Disarming infants kills people.

I'm sick of these liberals who say we shouldn't send our children to the shopping malls with proper fire power.

It's sick bleeding heart foolishness, ask me.

Robert Stacy McCain| 11.30.08 @ 1:43PM

"We need to bring Hispanics into the fold and not make them the enemy."

Well, obviously, they're bitterly clinging to their guns, so that makes them natural Republicans, right?

ruth| 11.30.08 @ 3:16PM

Bob, you blamed Hispanics, you said they were the enemy, I didn't. And then of course you blame L.A.'s problems on the SoCons still living here, though I see you took off before your liberal policies did so much damage. I'm also sure that eventually you'll get around to blaming them on Sarah Palin--that's how you roll. But the major cities in this country have been run by liberals for many years (except when NYC was cleaned up by Giuliani) not conservatives. It's liberal policies that have destroyed the big cities, especially the Obamassiah's Chicago. He's our Community Organizer in Chief. I can just imagine what is going to happen to our whole country, not just the big cities. I have grown up with Latinos, our large catholic families have worked, played and prayed together since I was born. So don't make them out to be the problem--it is liberalism that's the culprit. If we don't protect our border, we will cease to exist, it's that simple. Economically we cannot support the needs of every person who wants to live here--regardless of race, nationality, gender or age. Is this simple enough for you to understand? Liberalism doesn't work.

ruth| 11.30.08 @ 3:23PM

Jeremiah, you can take heart; because of your liberal abortion policies, there are far fewer children who need to be properly armed while shopping at the malls. Nice and tidy, right?

Bob| 11.30.08 @ 3:47PM

Wendy, almost 2/3 of Hispanics voted for Obama. About half of the evangelical Christians voted for Obama. If you define social conservatives as you do -- anti-abortion -- they would not be social conservatives. They are concerned with immigration reform which is why they won't vote Republican.

Bob| 11.30.08 @ 3:48PM

Ruth, you spoke about the immigration problem in SoCal -- which is primarily Hispanic in nature.

Bob| 11.30.08 @ 3:50PM

RSM -- Good remark. Finally something we can agree on....

Jeremiah| 11.30.08 @ 4:00PM

The hostility of some on the right towards Hispanics -- especially their language and culture -- is weird.

Every hispanic person I've known has been hard working, religious, family-oriented, and basically conservative -- with the exception of a few issues.

I understand that a person can support strengthening the border without being racist or anti-hispanic (I would count myself in that group).

But the subjective impression Hispanics have received from a noisy but probably small group on the fringes on the right scared them into being Democrats. (I say this as a Democrat. If Republicans hone their message a little more intelligently next time around and don't let Sarah Palin hold proto-Klan rallies throughout the south, they'll probably win back a large percentage of Hispanics.)

Jeremiah| 11.30.08 @ 4:05PM

Speaking of Toys R Us --

When I was a kid in the eighties, the conservative rallying cry was "Made in the USA."

That was the great populist, pro-American motto.

When was the last time you heard a conservative say "buy American"? (Or a liberal for that matter?)

When have you heard Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity make the case for shunning Wal Mart because it sells products made in China?

That used to be how conservatives thought. Now corporatism -- an insane worship of Moloch and the Market -- holds sway, and no one's philosophy is even coherent, let alone pure.

Thomas| 11.30.08 @ 5:42PM

Jeremiah,

About the "Made In America" of the '80's. That mantra was not reserved to the conservatives in this country, it was universal among the U.S. worker population. Unfortunately, rote manufacturing could be done much more cheaply outside the U.S. than it could at home. So, much of the consumer manufacturing simply moved out of the country. Paying a worker $7 a day is much better for the profit margin than $70 a day.

As for Hispanics, they are welcome here, just as are Chinese, Swedes, Sri Lankans, Iranians, Guatemalans, Russians, Vietnamese or any other immigrant that wishes to legally enter the country. Unfortunately my career has proven that the Hispanic community is almost identical to every other ethnic community in the U.S. It has good, hard working honest people. And it has criminal scum. Just like the rest of the world. Your attempt to put halos upon an entire segment of the population is either naive or misguided. As has been pointed out, an inordinate percentage of the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. is Central and South American [Hispanic], simply because the current administration, as well as most previous administrations, refuses to adhere to their oaths of office and and the law by refusing to enforce immigration laws. Hispanics are not being targeted, illegal aliens are.

In this wonderful country everyone is free to vote for whomever they choose. If a majority of Hispanic voters choose to vote for liberal candidates rather than conservative ones, that is their right. But, they, along with the rest of us, will have to live with their decision.

ruth| 11.30.08 @ 6:34PM

See, Bob, that's the difference between Conservatives like me and Liberals like you. I identify a problem and you obfuscate it by automatically defining it by race. Race is not the issue, Bob, it's lack of border enforcement. Mexico deploys its military on its southern border--are Mexicans racist? As I said before, it's not about race, it's about our sovereignty.

ruth| 11.30.08 @ 6:42PM

Jeremiah, liberals' hostility toward unborn babies is wierd. Every baby I have come to know was lovable and innocent. Lucky for you liberals, they can't vote, so it's easy for you to condemn them to the dumpsters.

Bob| 12.1.08 @ 8:26AM

Ruth, you're funny. You claim that everyone who is against Palin is a sexist..... When you talk about immigration in SoCal, you ARE talking about Hispanics. The obfuscation came from YOU.

Regarding racism, many people talk about being tolerant, but display negative remarks about minorities. They bring up issues of immigration, language, etc., which are proxies, in many cases, for oblique racism. That's why the Republican party is now almost devoid of blacks and are losing Hispanics at an alarming rate. Remember, 2/3 of Hispanics voted for Obama.

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 8:39AM

>>>Jeremiah, liberals' hostility toward unborn babies is wierd. Every baby I have come to know was lovable and innocent. Lucky for you liberals, they can't vote, so it's easy for you to condemn them to the dumpsters.

Ruth, to liberals all people are disposable, in the pursuit of the ends. The ends justify the means.

Guess what you haven't seen much of at Daily Kos over the last few days? The attack in India. They reported on it briefly, then very quickly it was back to Kos's navel gazing over the election. Still obssessed, still rancorous, still plotting the demise of the right like a mad scientist. People don't matter. Only beating the other guy and rubbing his nose in it. Or to quote Kos himself (as he so revealing posted about American workers who were savagely murdered in Iraq,) screw 'em.

Bob| 12.1.08 @ 9:12AM

Wendy -- it's ironic that you talk about the Daily Kos obsessed with the right. Virtually all of the comments here are obsessed with the left. It's not surprising that you, and others here, can't see both sides. Living your life with blinders is why the Republican party is going downhill.

There are good people on both sides of the "respect for people" issue -- and your problem is that you cannot see the other side. Liberals have a soft spot for poverty, care about the plight of minorities, care about the environment, and cares about our individual privacy. That is NOT a "disposable" view of humanity. The fact is that half of evangelical Christians voted for Obama. How come I don't hear you talk about poverty, healthcare, minorities, etc.????

Get over the "I'm a better person than you" mindset. Get over your hatred of the left. Republicans will not win through hate. The winning political segment is the center, not the left or the right. Do not pay attention to the extremists of either side.

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 9:45AM

>>>Virtually all of the comments here are obsessed with the left. It's not surprising that you, and others here, can't see both sides.

Bob, what you are describing is moral relativism. And no, I don't practice it. Some things are wrong and some things are right. PERIOD.

That's the problem with people like you. Everything is up for discussion, everything has two sides, all is squishy. You can find a reason to excuse the most morally reprehensible behavior, as the dingbats on the left (like Deepak Chopra) are now doing vis a vis the horrors in India.

It's NOT extremism to have a moral center.

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 9:48AM

>>>Liberals have a soft spot for poverty, care about the plight of minorities, care about the environment, and cares about our individual privacy.

Oh bullpucky Bob. They say they do, but they don't. Kinda like the Obama campaign not paying poor campaign workers, and Obama himself slamming Nancy Reagan (an 88-year-old woman with a bad hip) in his first press conference.

Can't you just feel the love and compassion Bob?

Mary| 12.1.08 @ 9:59AM

Or to quote Kos himself (as he so revealing posted about American workers who were savagely murdered in Iraq,) screw 'em.

You're right Wendy.

All you need to know about is Kos and Sullivan's trek into Governor Palin's birth canal. Kos was smart enough to remove traces of that little foray of his. Sullivan's daily trek into her Birth Canal was was from the heart of darkness.

The left's derangement relative to President Bush was even worse than the right's Clinton derangement.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness: no one ever said preserving these would be easy.

I'm thankful for AmSpec and other sites as well that give us a chance to read the work of people who are not morose and dark and to paticipate in the democratic process as we do.

Not very many good and decent citizens (both right and left) want to be part of what Kos is about.

Amspec, Powerline, Commentary, NRO, Ace of Spades, The Other McCain, Hot Air, Michelle Malkin, etc. All intelligent people, all patriots. Ace throws in some spice to boot.

I'm glad to be here and not there.

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 10:15AM

Thanks Mary. Yes, it's a gift to be here, to be one of us, not one of them. Not in a million years would any of us say or think what Kos did when the Americans workers were killed, mutilated, immolated and hung from bridges in Iraq. "Screw 'em" - was his response. Yet the left and liberals (and Christopher Buckley even!) make pilgrimages to Daily Kos, penning op-eds and kissing Kos' hem.

You never can come back, in my world, from what Kos wrote about the workers in Iraq.

As for Andrew Sullivan, I have my own theories about him. They have to do with self-loathing, anger, and misogyny.

Mary| 12.1.08 @ 10:36AM

Wendy, heads up on Buckley. Apparently, he's coming out with a book, written in 40 days -no biblical connection, he says. You betcha! ;)

It's a book that's supposed to " land hard in some quarters..."

What's that Shakespeare wrote about a "thankless child."

Mary| 12.1.08 @ 10:52AM

Wendy, (and others) please read this:
http://tinyurl.com/5eygbo.

I'm a huge anglophile. Emigrated from Italy to a very anglo, Presbyterian town.

Never really felt "white" though I was, because as an immigrant you are set apart a bit.

But though the town was small, it was the County seat, and it had a rich history that dated back to Revolution.

Bob| 12.1.08 @ 12:06PM

Wendy, you are hilarious...

"Bob, what you are describing is moral relativism. And no, I don't practice it. Some things are wrong and some things are right."

Just like George Bush, that makes you the DECIDER!!!!

What if your bible disagrees with mine? Who is right? Should our government follow your bible or mine?

"Moral relativism" is an artifact of anti-intellectualism, i.e., an inability to think or do analysis. However, the example we discussed was not even moral relativism, it was simply the fact that you are not any more positive than those on the left. You constantly criticize them (because you believe it, presumably), and they constantly criticize you. You believe they are wrong and vice-versa. That's the problem with extremists like you and other so-cons. You presume to be "better" than them. Listening, dealing with facts, developing common solutions, is the most effective way to govern among a populace with differing beliefs.

Wendy, you ARE a hoot!!!!

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 12:52PM

Well Bob, the Founding Fathers did pretty well, for example, when it came to governing, by combining real-life common sense with deeply-held MORAL convictions. What the heck do you think this country was founded on?

Quote from John Adams:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Now I suppose you consider the Founding Fathers to be "anti-intellectual" - but I don't.

Go ahead and defend Kos and his ilk. Say they are just like the us, only different and just as good. That's what you are saying after all. I don't happen to agree.

Bob| 12.1.08 @ 3:28PM

Wendy, I am a pragmatist, and both you and Kos are ideologues. I want government to work and look more at results than deem theories right or wrong. When you start using religious beliefs to govern rather than practical results you never realize when you have the law of unintended consequences in effect.

There were a number of our forefathers that were not very religious. If you look at history, in order to justify a legislated morality, populations used their religious beliefs. Our forefathers thought that women should not have the vote, that blacks were only 3/5ths as good as whites, and that slavery was morally acceptable. So when is basing something on the moral code of the time right and when is it wrong? I'm not sure you would accept the religious dogma of the 1800's today.

The founding fathers were not anti-intellectual and discussed the pragmatic underpinnings of even religious decisions. The quote about the Constitution actually partially disproves your theory. If you actually comprehended Adam's words, he was saying not that the Constitution was based on morality and religion, only that it did not address these issues and a society would not be orderly unless there was some morality in it. At that juncture, state civil code was not developed. These codes attempt to legislate morality and provide laws affecting local acceptable behaviors.

So, Wendy, if you are going to provide a quote, please understand what you are presenting before you come to a conclusion.

WendyG| 12.1.08 @ 5:36PM

>>>So, Wendy, if you are going to provide a quote, please understand what you are presenting before you come to a conclusion.

I have to disagree with your analysis of the quote.

And you are the ideologue. And your ideology is liberalism. Fine, but don't pretend it is otherwise.

Mari B| 12.2.08 @ 5:02PM

If all of us can get over the politics, let's just deal with the reality. What has happened here, is that you have two men who by killing themselves have perpetuated with their blood; the fuel of the "Feud". Does it matter whether the names involved are "Moreno & Meza" or "Hatfield & McCoy"? It is the feuding mentality itself that should be scrutinized as well as the availability of guns and the propensity of so many Americans to use them. My outrage comes from knowing that it happened in a public place, where children are expected and vulnerable. The women who instigated the argument that led to the over-reactive shooting , are as much to blame as the men who took each other out. Now, expect the feud to continue...as it usually does. I am thankful however that no innocents were hurt. As for the grieving families; they must take responsibility for their own actions, and decide whether to continue the hate, or bury it with these two men. I pray they lay it to rest.

ruth| 12.4.08 @ 2:45AM

Once again, Bob is displaying the omniscience of the average liberal mind. He 'knows' that I am talking about Latinos being the problem, when I stated no such thing. I repeat again, lack of border enforcement is the problem--not people. But Bob has his list of code words and no one is going to convince him otherwise. Bob knows what I'm thinking better than I do. Is he gifted or is he an arrogant moron? I'll let you decide.

ruth| 12.4.08 @ 2:49AM

Bob, I didn't say everyone who disagrees with Palin is a sexist, I said you were a sexist pig because of the degrading insults you keep hurling at her. Pig.