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The Right Prescription

Is Obamacare Socialism or Fascism?

By on 1.18.13 @ 6:10AM

The CEO of Whole Foods can’t seem to make up his mind.

As a general rule, I avoid “healthy” food whenever possible. I try to eat things with extra fat and lots of additives. This is a conscious strategy that should assure that I keel over before being left to the tender mercies of Medicare after the Obama administration has transformed it into a system that rations care based on a Byzantine formula that purports to measure how many “quality” years of life a patient has left. Moreover, if I consume enough chemical additives, I can save my family some money by arriving at the funeral home pre-embalmed.

For a brief period this week, however, I was on the verge of bestowing my custom on Whole Foods Market, despite its deplorable policy of “selling the highest quality natural and organic products available.” Why? Because it seemed that the grocery chain’s CEO, John Mackey, was that elusive creature for whom Diogenes searched so fruitlessly — an honest man. Mackey is currently promoting his new book, Conscious Capitalism, and has therefore subjected himself to a series of media interviews, including one recently broadcast on NPR.

During that interview, he was asked if his opinion of Obamacare had changed since he wrote, in the Wall Street Journal, “All countries with socialized medicine ration health care by forcing their citizens to wait in lines to receive scarce treatments.” He answered as follows: “Technically speaking, it’s more like fascism. Socialism is where the government owns the means of production. In fascism, the government doesn’t own the means of production, but they do control it — and that’s what’s happening with our health care programs and these reforms.”

One can imagine the gasps with which that “clarification” was received by the people on the set of Morning Edition. And it must have caused the Obamazombies among his Whole Foods customer base to react as if they had discovered lamb chops lurking among the bean sprouts and bottles of carrot juice. As the good folks at NPR gleefully noted in an update, “Many of you wrote in to tell us you were taken aback by Whole Foods top executive John Mackey characterizing the health law as fascism in an NPR interview, and apparently, he’s feeling a little sheepish.”

This was their way of gloating about the belligerence with which he was questioned about his heresy by Norah O’Donnell on CBS This Morning. His response to her interrogation was disappointingly craven: “Well, I think that was a bad choice of words on my part … What I know is that we no longer have free enterprise capitalism in health care, it’s not a system any longer where people are able to innovate, it’s not based on voluntary exchange. The government is directing it. So we need a new word for it. I don’t know what the right word is.”

OK, Mr. Mackey, if it’s not socialism and it’s not fascism and it’s not capitalism, what precisely is it? The humbled Whole Foods magnate made another attempt to arrive at acceptable nomenclature on Thursday while prostrating himself before the thought police at HuffPost Live: “I regret using that word now because it’s got so much baggage attached to it.… Of course, I was just using the standard dictionary definition.… I think I’m going to use the phrase government-controlled health care. That’s where we’re evolving to right now.”

There is, of course, a reason the word “fascist” has “baggage attached to it.” As Mackey gratuitously (or perhaps not) explained to O’Donnell, “That word has an association with dictatorships in the 20th Century, like Germany and Spain and Italy.” He might have added that an important feature of these regimes was “government-controlled health care,” as he has now decided to call it. Another distinctive feature that they shared was a conspicuous dearth of free expression, particularly where unpopular government programs were concerned.

Mackey is, of course, not alone in using the “F” word in relation to Obamacare. In fact, as Jeffrey Lord noted yesterday, constitutional expert Mark Levin used it in a discussion about a new executive order that will “clarify the Affordable Care Act” to encourage doctors to ask patients if they own guns: “There are some things in his executive orders that are un-American. In some ways they’re even fascistic. Doctors are private citizens. Do we really want doctors reporting to the federal government.… How is that going to stop any crime?”

Levin normally uses the term “tyranny” when he discusses the policies of our recently re-elected President. And perhaps that is the best term. Obamacare goes far beyond what Mackey calls “involuntary exchanges directed by the government.” It is part of a larger and far more insidious project that seeks to stamp out free expression as well as free enterprise. It is a project that permits the HHS secretary to issue illegal gag orders to private companies and encourages Americans to browbeat their fellow citizens into recanting when they hold verboten opinions.

Interesting how that word, “verboten,” spontaneously springs to mind when thinking about this episode. And, oddly enough, the most virulent of those 20th century fascist dictatorships to which Mackey referred while groveling to the media bullies was led by a vegetarian. I think I’ll stay away from Whole Foods after all.

About the Author

David Catron is a health care revenue cycle expert who has spent more than twenty years working for and consulting with hospitals and medical practices. He has an MBA from the University of Georgia and blogs at Health Care BS.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (234) |

John - The Mighty Fahvaag| 1.18.13 @ 6:37AM

The Left's Orwellian control of the language once again bans the use of words that denote accurate descriptions of their policies.

Continual manipulation of words and their definitions is a fixture of Orwell's Newspeak. It strips actions of context, and allows the government to erase history and its connections to the present.

The Fascists bully by overt and covert means any person or organization that dares to use the word or term that connects their Leftist policies with the average person's mental facilities.

For a brief moment, a CEO of a larg(ish) corporation actually stated the truth and used the appropriate description of the policies of the current Regime (and Democrat Party in general).

Obozo and his Ministers are, indeed, Fascists.

No amount of bullying will change that.

r/John - TMF

Jack in Wi| 1.18.13 @ 7:25AM

It is not a good idea for a businessman who depends on all segments of the public to be too outspoken. Of course it is fascism. But a businessman can't say it without outraging half his customers. Obama is a leftwing fascist with socialist tendencies. After all Mussolini was the editor of a socialist paper before he founded the Fascist Party. Obama is a mullatto Mussolini.

c. j. acworth| 1.18.13 @ 8:57AM

But will Obama make the Green, high-speed trains run on time? At least il Duce did that.

pogybait| 1.18.13 @ 9:51AM

However under Obamacare, Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to create reproductive organs.

KennesawJack| 1.18.13 @ 11:55AM

WINNER!!!!

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:06PM

Is Obamacare Socialist or Fascist?

Is there a difference?

Is Obama a Communist or a Marxist?

Is he Half Black or Half White?

Does he do what he does, because he Hates this Country or because he wants Revenge against this Country?

Is John Roberts a Traitor or a Quissling?

Do I need to keep going?

Or, do you Get the picture, already?

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 10:13AM

Yes, they will run on time: They will never arrive.

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 10:13AM

Gee, Jack...maybe he has actual convictions that are more important than business..???

Maybe he's deeply concerned about the direction his country is taking, and feels the need to speak out..?

Rhoetus| 1.18.13 @ 10:19PM

I may have to start shopping at Whole Foods. ;-)

davidh| 1.18.13 @ 1:35PM

Don't try to bend the spoon,
that's impossible.
Just realize the truth,
there is no spoon."

Our perception must change. We believe there is a choice. A choice between two parties. A choice between two candidates. This is the illusion.

Those with money and power (the elite) have taken that choice and created this illusion.

The real prize is our freedom. In the history of the civilized world no men have been free as we are in America. Never

This is resented by those who believe they are destined to rule us. Look at just the recent history of the last century. Is that an aberration? No, there are men who are evil. Tyrants. They are intent on domination and control. I do not know why there are such men. But they exist and are tireless.

Job| 1.18.13 @ 1:55PM

like

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:08PM

Where have you been all our life?

davidh| 1.18.13 @ 2:34PM

Many are called, few are chosen.

capatolistmom| 1.18.13 @ 2:30PM

Why do you think the stock market stays up? They still have their own "insider trading" exemptions. We are seeing more and more that we are going to need a third party. Sometimes it is too much work to change it from within. Sometimes it is better and easier to start fresh. Just look at the airlines, the legacy ones are full of problems, union contracts and retiries. The new ones don't have these problems. Same with the auto industry, there is General Motors with it's baggage and there is Toyota with little. So perhaps the republican party needs to be replaced from the outside!!! As far as Mackey, his "weasiness" is showing, no need to buy his book!!

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 3:13PM

I've been sayuing that for four years now. The Tea Party MUST become that third legitimate political party. The Republican party is too deeply corrupted to change it, so lets just beat it out of office.

Rhoetus| 1.18.13 @ 10:20PM

I'm gonna quote you. ;-)

Jacobite| 1.24.13 @ 9:04PM

Left and Right are opposites. Fascists are Rightists, and blood enemies of Leftists. Leftism aims at the systematic destruction of human societies. This is why Leftists always attack religion, although the connection of religion to the economy is never explained. In fact, religion is the foundation of every society, and Leftists are determined to destroy every society. Rightists defend and protect existing societies (race, religion, language, culture), setting up the conflict between Left and Right. If you doubt that religion underlies every normal human society, you are a Leftist. If you want to see anti-American Leftism in full gallop, watch the ACLU.

Gary B| 1.18.13 @ 7:15AM

Why, oh why do these people allow themselves to be bullied by leftist twits in the press? He recovered a little bit by saying he used the dictionary definition of the word. For most people, that's good enough. What's the dictionary definition of "is?"

Simon Templar| 1.18.13 @ 11:15AM

Because conservatives fail to actively and vigorously come to their defense and leave them twisting in the wind.

R Martin| 1.18.13 @ 7:42AM

I avoid Whole Foods because it exudes that leftist pedantry of proselytizing about what’s good for you. Now there’s another reason—the CEO has gonads the size of bird shot. Perhaps I could help Mr. Mackey. The correct term is Marxist. Mr. Obama and his policies are aimed at achieving the principal Marxist goal of “equality” and doing it through a process of government encouraged class envy. It’s un-American and if Mr. Mackey can’t stand-up for himself, so is he.

Seek| 1.18.13 @ 1:28PM

Marxism has never been about "equality." Its main theme, ever and always, is that capital and labor are in eternal conflict, and that the latter will prevail. For Marx, history can be defined as the relationship between capital and labor -- a mode of production -- over which time which labor develops a class consciousness and eventually a revolutionary spirit. Marx spurned what he called "bourgeois parliamentary reforms."

I reject his view, but the least we can do is properly understand it. Obama is a Leftist, but he is definitely not a Marxist.

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 2:10PM

And that's why Marxism will NEVER prevail, and will always bring nothing but misery, instead.

"Labor" CANNOT prevail without "Capital." Period.

Poppakap| 1.24.13 @ 2:38PM

That's why the sickle & hammer crowd must control everything in an economy. The forced flow of capital to any input of labor results in gross inefficiency and waste. Ultimately, the system implodes under the weight of hubris and its inability to produce anything of consistent value.

R Martin| 1.18.13 @ 5:13PM

Obama is a Marxist from the tips of those jug ears to the bottom of his toes. You can argue the semantics of "equality" but Marx's views on class struggle and a proletariat dictatorship leading to a classless society and, of course, to communism is exactly what Obama wants. Leftist is far too kind.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 7:46AM

We have been saying since 2008 that Obama is a totalitarian.

He pursues the socialist goals of redistribution of income, or "spreading the wealth around" as if there was wealth not belonging to anyone that he can do with as he chooses. To accomplish his goals necessarily requires that he expands the power of government to take from some taxpayers and give to others favored by him, such Solyndra and his base. He used stimulus funds to reward contributors and unions.

His methods are totalitarian in that he ignores Congress whenever he can get away with it, and uses the agencies, departments, and his office to issue regulations and executive orders.

This argument of socialism v. fascism is a distinction without a differenc in reality.

Why own the means of productions when you can control and regulate it to achieve the socialist goals you want.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 8:17AM

Morning W:
It hardly matters what name we use to describe the economic theory of this administration. In either event it remains a centrally planned, command economy controlled through government action. Little could be further from the historical economy of The U S. It was not the command economy which grew this country nor was it a command economy which gave the citizens the highest overall standard of living in the world. By whatever name, a centralized state economy is tyranny, nothing less.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 9:28AM

Al - don't be so ridiculous. More than 90% of employed Americans work in the private sector. If that's a 'centralized state economy' then you have some explaining to do.

old white guy| 1.18.13 @ 10:00AM

the government has control of every business in the country. try and do something today that does not have the ugly handprint of government on it. the private sector has so many rules, regulations, taxes, government agencies they must work through the word fascism is most appropriate. just try and evade the government control.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 10:11AM

That is exactly why "fascist" is the proper word, not "socialist".

Fascism is the most dishonest of the "isms". It is a system where everything remains nominally private, but the government controls what you can do with your "private" property and life to such an extent that it might as well be communism.

The advantage of Fascism for Leftists is that they can get all the control they want, but the nominal privacy allows them to blame others for all the failings.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 11:25AM

Hey JD - what would you like to do with a business if you had one that you can't do now?

You're just so full of extreme right wing rhetoric - so much so you talk about fascism as if you had any idea what it was like to live under Franco or Mussolini. How old are you by the way - my bet is early 20s.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 11:41AM

I counter your rhetoric with facts, and you accuse me of using rhetoric which you make no effort to counter.

I suspect I have as much experience living under Mussolini as you do. But I don't need such experience to understand Fascism. I know its definition, I can apply its definition, and I'm experiencing it here in America.

You Leftists simply can't stand to have the proper terms for your ideas used.

KennesawJack| 1.18.13 @ 11:59AM

JD, Ayn Rand told us a long time ago to fight the left by giving a name to what they are. This is exactly what we need to do. Jackie boy cannot factually repute the elements of fascism that exist in this bastard's (and, Jackie, he IS a bastard - check out the definition) approach to government.

Dagny Taggert| 1.18.13 @ 12:33PM

As a stockbroker, I'd like to lessen the ridiculous amount of paperwork required by the government (forcing us at our small firm to hire a separate compliance officer) that has ZERO to do with insuring the best service and performance to our clients. I'm sure my barber could do without the annual licensing fees to practice his trade. I'm sure a thriving small business would like to do away with the arbitrary "50 employee rules" that kick in as he's incented to stop hiring at 49. London, I challenge you to name a few industries where the feds or states DON'T have their grubby fingers. Damn, there's so many lawyers vulturing out there on any wrongdoing, don't you think their financial incentives do a good job of keeping everybody in line? 90% private, but how many of those don't have to report to a government bureaucracy.

Grzmlyk| 1.18.13 @ 1:10PM

Shut the F up, you extreme leftist whack job and pay your fair share.

Now.

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 3:17PM

Here Jack, I'll tell what a business owner can do with his business with the government out of it. KEEP MORE OF HIS HARD EARNED MONEY!

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 5:31PM

Commie Jack
Hire, fire, pay, promote based on merit. No worries about quota systems.
You run a close second to purpie for idiocy.
I do have personal knowledge of persons who lived under Benito who believed in the corporate state with the government involvment in the economy, similar to Benito Obama.

JmsA| 1.18.13 @ 6:08PM

I'm not in my twenties. I lived under Franco. As a matter of fact, he welcomed me right in, after I arrived in Spain as an exile/refugee from a communist country. You know that same country which under the orders of a tyrant, whose family still runs the show, all private American property, as well as all other private property was ("nationalized") confiscated without compensation. You know, that same property regarding which you once commented, and I paraphrase: you couldn't give a damn about United Fruit Company's property being confiscated. Franco was good to me and my family. You don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you go and ask Spaniards how socialism is working out for them, Jack?

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 7:52PM

JMSA
My HS spanish teacher was an exile from Sean Penn's vacation island.
Did you read my reply about a week ago, my comment about Vietnam was to canuck, not you.

JmsA| 1.18.13 @ 10:50PM

Thank you, CJW, for correcting my overreaction. I just don't like being confused with dems--though your assertion was correct relative to the forces behind that debacle in South East Asia.

CJW| 1.19.13 @ 4:13PM

JmsA
Nobody will confuse you with the brain dead dems, compadre.

Cats1cowboy| 1.20.13 @ 11:46PM

Jack London was a communist.

George S| 1.18.13 @ 10:55AM

Were all people employed by the government in the Soviet Union under Stalin? No? Then there was no tyranny I guess.

Glad you cleared that up.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 11:20AM

Al Adab
Good morning, cold and sunny here in Pgh.
I agree that arguing about the meaning of these words is a waste of time, and we need to focus on the reality.
It does not matter that even 100% work in the private economy if the government dictates to the private economy what it can and cannot do through the numerous laws and regulations, starting with Obamacare that controls over 16% of the economy.
The tyranny that lefties like Jack do not aprreciate or care about is that it requires a strong powerful government to regulate such a conrolled economy, and that concentration of power always results in tyranny.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 11:28AM

So CJ - what exactly would you like to do with a business that you can't do now? Otherwise this is as usual just far right antiperistalsis, which I'll grant you are a specialist in.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 11:51AM

The financial sector spends the predominant amount of its time working around taxes and regulations, all other sectors have to work around the financial sector, and tax and regulatory compliance is a substantial part of the work of running any business as well, not to mention low-cost competition from overseas, but Jack wants to know what would be different without our government's fascism? And don't get me started on all the activities - financial, technological, industrial, etc - that are banned simply because some politician thinks they might do harm.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:00PM

You've got chutzpah - I'll give you that. Deregulating the financial sector was such a great idea wasn't it.

And give me one - just one - activity that's banned that's having a big impact.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:11PM

Again, you insist that we all believe your narrative. You don't actually argue for your narrative, you just work from the presumption that we've all accepted it.

The housing bust was simple enough to understand, for those who aren't blinded by ideology.

Government positioned itself over decades, through Fannie and Freddie, as the arbiter of the safety of mortgages, mortgage-backed securities, etc. Whether a loan was "conforming" and purchasable by the GSEs became everyone else's standard for whether it was safe as well. Why? Because government did the leg work free of charge, and no private analysts could compete with that.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:11PM

Then government decided, through dubious statistics, that lending practices were discriminatory. It decided to "fix" this by mandating that a certain percentage of GSEs' portfolios consist of mortgages for the "underprivileged". It also mandated that "discrimination" be prevented by rating these mortgages the same as other mortgages.

Of course, due to other rules, these people only qualified for "subprime" mortgages. So suddenly, where subprime had previously been a terrible idea (because if you issued it, you couldn't sell it), now there was a huge market for subprime (because everyone would buy what they could always sell to Fannie, and because Fannie was required to buy it before it would buy more other mortgages). Regulators upped the ante by refusing regulatory approval to other, perfectly normal activities unless banks satisfied their demand for more low-income lending.

Regulators created the subprime debacle by quite literally requiring it to happen, but because you are Fascist and kept the private sector "involved", you now push the lie that it was all the private sector's fault.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:31PM

I'm not going to correct you on who sold the vast majority of subprimes JD. Again, you need to do some home reading.

Try and come up with an example of something that big bad government bans that you just know is holding us back.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:39PM

The GSE's (namely Fannie Mae) purchased more subprime mortgages than any other mortgage bank or investment house.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:48PM

Try comprehension: who sold them I said.

Ryan| 1.18.13 @ 1:23PM

More importantly, who backed them? Who insured them?

The big banks held little risk for those loans, because they knew that the American public was backing them with tax dollars.

Remove the implicit guarantee of bad loans, and you see banks making the right ones.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:36PM

Ryan - please go read a bit on this. It was the boom and bust in the non-conforming sector and private securitization - the ones not eligible for GSE backing - that brought the house down.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:57PM

Wow, Jack. And you had the audacity to condemn the reading comprehension of someone else?

The whole point is that the government marked subprime as "safe" and mandated that GSEs buy them. That's what made banks issue them - because they could sell them to the GSEs and to anyone who blindly adhered to the GSEs' purchasing standards (which was everyone, because government pushed private players out of the rating business).

Government restricts a wide variety of smart economic activities including various forms of financing and energy production. It also adds cost to many operations, which leads to offshoring. The losses as a result of these things are incalculable.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:37PM

Wrong JD. Now be a good boy and go read up on this.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:14PM

Who ALLOWED all of this?

The RAPIST: Bill Clinton.

He signed the end of Glass/Steagall in to Law.

But, you already knew that, didn't ya?

So, STFU.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:15PM

Now, be a good boy, and go read up on this.

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 3:00PM

Off topic, bu tif anyone wants a good laugh they should go re-read the esteemed Mr. Caron's article from last year entitled "Lance vs the Losers". Here are my favorite comments:

Jack London| 8.27.12 @ 11:25AM

Sadly it looks like there is overwhelming evidence against Armstrong. Cycling has been a corrupted sport in the 1990s/2000s. and few have come out of it well – riders and authorities.

REPLY TO THIS
TLP| 8.27.12 @ 6:54PM

There is NO EVIDENCE against Armstrong.

ARE YOU EVER FCKNG RIGHT?

No, you're not.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 4:56PM

Ha ha - just one of many alternate universes these guys live in.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 5:50PM

There Nevr was any evidence against Armstrong.

He passed every test.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 5:51PM

You went back to August 2012?

GET A JOB!

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 7:44PM

You do know this site has a search feature, right?

There was a ton of evidence against Lance. Even without that, you could use common sense to realize that no clean racer was beating a field filled with juicers. But simple logic isn't really your forte, is it?

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 7:53PM

Dred
Who cares?

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 7:57PM

I do! I like laughing at Timmy.

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 8:00PM

Also, the fact that David Catron is an idiot is somewhat germane to discussion of his article.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 5:34PM

Commie Jack
Hire, fire, pay, promote based on merit. No worries about quota systems.

You run a close second to purpie for idiocy. You have not read very closely if you believe I am in my early 20's.

I do have personal knowledge of persons who lived under Benito who believed in the corporate state with the government involvment in the economy, similar to Benito Obama.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:37PM

You're obviously not a private businessman, or you would have never written such words.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:20PM

Don't be sure.

Is Naval Gazing considered a Business, these days?

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 2:14PM

Your statistic is meaningless.

It doesn't matter if 99% of Americans work in the private sector or not. That's because Federal spending alone is almost 25% of the total US economy.

Factor in state and local governments and the figure is even higher.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:23PM

And, then add in the Fact that Government Jobs are up 73%.

Go back to Homo World, ya "Cigarette".

Rhoetus| 1.18.13 @ 10:23PM

90% - that's not true.

Von Mises Jr| 1.18.13 @ 10:42AM

Mises in "Socialism" defines the term as "a policy which aims at constructing a society in which the means of production is socialized" and quipped that "a man may call a cat a dog and the sun the moon if it pleases him (p.20)."
Fascism is correlated with nationalist movements such as in Italy, Spain and Germany. Before these movements gained steam (or gas if you were a Jew) the policies were transported from the Frankfort School in Germany where Woodrow Wilson "progressives" such as Dewey, Croly and Rauschenbusch joined the "brain trust" starting the movement in the United States that became labeled fascism in these nation states. Progressives changed their names to "liberals" to conflate and confuse them with classical liberals and now seek to return back to the earlier label since they have soiled the new term.
Marxism was generally abandoned as a term since some of the ideas such as "material productive forces" were ridiculous and it also was soiled by Stalin and Mao. So "communism" is also an on-again-off-again label.
But whatever we call it, it is a form of statism and socialism. Mises also termed "etatism" when distribution includes artificial merit or rank, but it all comes down to "interventionism" or as Hayek often spoke of it as a "centrally planned economy."
Regardless, it has never worked, and per "Socialism" can never work since prices cannot be calculated without free markets, and it always results in misery except for the ruling elite.

R Martin| 1.18.13 @ 11:08AM

For those of you with insufficient time to study Austrian economics on your own, just read Von Mises Jr. You'll get the gist of it.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 11:22AM

RM
Does Von speak Austrian?

KennesawJack| 1.18.13 @ 4:22PM

I think he speaks Viennaese.

Von Mises Jr| 1.18.13 @ 1:09PM

Thank you my friend. When I went to College, they taught Classical Economics that was basically Keynes with formulas. Some of it was useful, but I learned Austrian Economics just by lots of reading.
I did not read it, but I bought my nephews "Economics in One Lesson" by Hazlitt and I recommend that if you want to understand economics, read Dr. Sowell or Dr. Walter E. William’s columns. The good Professors explain current events for all to understand.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:24PM

CONTEST at Monday's Story: The Noble Savage.

And, bring your Potty Mouth.

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 3:23PM

Now you announce the contest? Knew I should of brought my cliff notes.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 3:43PM

Von
My college econ courses were the same. I majored in econ, and the macroecon courses were all about the government spending to increase demand. The best course were on demographics and its effects and money and banking.

Von Mises Jr| 1.19.13 @ 8:10AM

I have an MBA but I never had Economics as a Major. I took extra credits in Undergrad as a Minor and have taken lots of accounting, some finance and advanced math and computer science. But most economics learning came from reading Sowell, Williams and later Mises and Hayek books.
Perhaps this is a good opportunity to explain why Keynesian "demand-side" economics is a farce?
Keynesians believe too much demand creates inflation and high GDP growth and that too little demand creates high unemployment and low GDP growth. But Jimma Carter had "stagflation that is both high inflation and high unemployment. So the theory must be incorrect since you cannot have too much demand and too little demand at the same time.
Therefore, it is a ruse that government spending will increase growth and reduce unemployment. We are seeing that now with real U6 at about 15% and real inflation at 6-8% since the published CPI excludes food and energy.
Bastiat's teaching would have sufficed to disprove Keynes with "That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen." The government spending came from private sector taxes, borrowing that crowd out private lending or inflationary monetary policy that is a hidden tax.
Have a great weekend, CJW and my TASmanian friends.

Nancy in NC| 1.18.13 @ 7:59AM

Too bad so few have the courage of their convictions. If he couldn't stand the heat, Mr. Mackey should have stayed out of the kitchen of the left wing media. Of course he wanted to tout his book. Turns out he has a price as well.

Honest men are few and far between. As conservatives we must never bow to those intent on destroying us. Why can't we be as dogged about our principles as the morons on the left? We have facts and history on our side.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 8:16AM

Fascism is Socialism and then some. Not all Socialists are Fascists; however, all Fascists are Socialists.

In classic terms (with help from Jonah Goldberg), Fascism is a form of politics where the government attempts to replace or replace the insititutions of the family and church. In short, Fascism comes close to being a religion itself. One would also do well to read some of the essays of Max Weber. Weber observed that many governments of his time (mainly socialist governments) wished to extract the same kind of reverence and individual action that only religions could inspire. Weber created the word Charisma (a Greek term) for the kind of religious grace a politician or leader (Fueher) possesses in order to get the citizens to do things that they normally do not do. Weber didn't know it at the time, but he was describing to a T the classic Fascist politician. Woodrow Wilson, Mussolini, FDR, Hitler, and Obama are or were all fascists in their outlooks

So yes, ObamaCare is a Fascist project. For it uses both public and private means to not only change large components of our economy, but it also goes beyond economics.

Von Mises Jr| 1.18.13 @ 10:57AM

Jonah's new book "The Tyranny of clichés" is great. I heard him speak at AFP, bought a signed copy and got to chat with him. It was more philosophical in its references than I recall "Liberal Fascism," but both books are wonderful books.
His speech was explaining Locke versus Rousseau (whom actually was taken in by Locke) and both first books of "Two Treatise of Government" and "Social Contract" have much in common. I am still reading the latter, but it seems J.J. strayed with assuming the "Noble Savages" believed like Rodney King that "can't we all just get along." Turns out, anthropology tells a different tune and old Jean Jacques screwed up.
The speech was hilarious as he explained how screwed up all liberals are seeking for the “State” to love them. It almost makes me feel remorseful as I point out how sick and perverted they are as I bash them. They replace God, family, morals and ethics with an abstract that apparently tells them to tell everyone else what to do and to take their stuff.

OP4| 1.18.13 @ 8:24AM

Socialism = government ownership of production.

Fascism = government control of privately owned production (through laws & regulations).

Of course Obmacare is fascism. Modern liberals are smarter than their socialist forefathers in 2 ways.

1. They realize that Americans are too attached to the concept of private property to submit to nationalization of industries. Too many legal and Constitutional barriers.

2. Liberals have come to recognize their own incompetence. If they own it and mess it up - they will be blamed. If private companies (following government orders) screw it up, they can blame the greedy capitalists.

They may desire a socialist single payer model in the end, but Obamacare is pure fascism.

Von Mises Jr| 1.18.13 @ 11:03AM

Today we tend to use "fascism" as you mention that has been replaced in "mixed company" with "crony capitalism" as to not roiled and offend the women and metro-sexual liberal men.
In fact, given your distinction, ObamaCare starts off as fascist and evolves to pure socialism as we have single payer and government run hospitals and clinics (since hospitals and doctors will be broke).

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:41PM

Indeed, it was bad enough when Leftists decided that Fascism was a right-wing idea because it went so badly in Europe (it was well-recognized as far left through the 1930s). But now they've gone a step further and invented the term "crony capitalism" to describe Fascism. This is an even more naked attempt to make it sound like a right-wing phenomenon.

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 2:18PM

"it was well-recognized as far left through the 1930s"

And I suppose you have evidence of the wide spread recognition of fascism as a far left wing idea in the 1930s?

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 2:42PM

What utter nonsense. The leftists who fought against Franco's fascism in the 1930s didn't consider it "far left". The right-wing American and English admirers of Hitlerin the 1930s, including Lindberg, didn't consider it "far left.". The German socialists and communists who fought Hitler's rise didn't consider it far left. This is more conservative revisionist nonsense.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 2:56PM

The truth RCV is that centralized control whether from the Left or the Right is anti-liberty and should be opposed. Conservatives often find themselves in opposition to republican party ideas and even from time to time to ideas of their own leaders to wit WFB's concept of universal draft and national service.

A bad idea from whatever source is nonetheless a bad idea. This is simply another example of leftists judging Conservatives by their own standard of leader worship. The Fuehrer does no wrong.

Von Mises Jr| 1.18.13 @ 3:12PM

Al, forgets the two ignoramuses. I scanned their comments since I didn't know who RCA (but I think he is out of business) is and DRedful was short. But they are both incoherent. I don't know what they said and they have no references.
R Martin, OP4, JD, JP, CJW and I are having an intelligent conversation and two morons interject mindless opinion.
I do not care what they think (since they do not) nor say. Brother, you are wasting your time with them and I am not sure what you said in trying to respond to troll nonsense.

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 3:20PM

hahahahaha. Asking for evidence is not an interjection of mindless opinion. It's part of intelligent conversation, no? You reads all those books on the socialit and the fascist Von-you should be able to answer questions. But of course, you never can.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 5:06PM

Got to love 'R Martin, OP4, JD, JP, CJW and I are having an intelligent conversation.' Well it's intelligence, but not as we know it, Jim.

I must say as I've said before that JD, in particular, seems to have no education at all in history and economics such that he gets everything 180 degrees wrong...

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 5:38PM

Commie Jack
Wow, snarky little lefty, you think you are more intelligent? Maybe your are, but you surely have not shown it.

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 5:50PM

"Von Mises Jr." - Al Adab and I have had many constructive and respectful discussions over the years, and will continue to do so. Unlike you, we actually enjoy discussing issues with people with whom we don't always agree. You should try it some time.

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 5:48PM

Al Adab, you are absolutely correct that tyrannical rule, whether from the left or right, ought to be opposed, and that bad ideas are bad from whatever source. But calling policy ideas you oppose "tyrranical" and comparing them to Hitler doesn't help rational discussion.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 5:56PM

"centralized control whether from the Left or the Right is anti-liberty and should be opposed" - centralized control is definitionaly Leftist. You can't have "right-wing centralized control." It's an oxymoron.

Leftist revisionists have used the conflict between German Fascists and German Socialists as their primary "evidence" that Fascism must not be Leftist - as though no two Leftists could possibly oppose each other. This is absurd. Of course they can oppose each other! Leftism is consolidating power under a central authority to advance the supposed greater good, but there's never been a Leftist who thought that an authority with ideas other than his own should be advanced in such a way!

Rather, the dishonesty of Leftism is to call "right-wing" the use of Leftist tactics to advance ideas that he opposes, even if everything about these enemies - their tactics AND their goals, is as opposite of the ideals of the Right as it can get. It doesn't matter to the Leftist - he's used to telling lies about the Right.

DRed| 1.18.13 @ 7:48PM

Speaking of telling lies, how are you doing at assembling that evidence that the fascists were widely thought to be far left wing in the 1930s?

Fascists were thought of as being right wing because they were violently opposed to anything left wing, they were militant nationalists, and they were strong supporters of traditional culture. Of course, left wing/right wing in Germany of the 1930s wasn't the same as it is in contemporary America, but you're still talking ahistorical nonsense.

Von Mises Jr| 1.19.13 @ 8:15AM

JD and CJW,
Do you notice that the wizards DRedful, RCA and Jack "Lords" of London have no documented facts? We quoted Mises, Hayek, Jonah Goldberg, Locke and Rousseau with facts and quotes plus discuss Sowell and Walter E. Williams and they have bupkiss. I am waiting for the commie line "all economist agree" blah, blah, blah....

RCV| 1.19.13 @ 12:19PM

Quoting opinions from others who agree with you doesn't count as "documented facts".

RCV| 1.19.13 @ 12:23PM

Al Adab, not all "centralized control ... Is anti-liberty and should be opposed.". Indeed, our Constitution was premised on the belief that a strong central government, with guarantees and limitations, was absolutely necessary for our Country to survive and prosper. That was the driving belief of our Founders who abandoned the failing experiment in greater decentralization under the Articles of Confederation.

JP| 1.21.13 @ 11:25AM

RCV,
The Fascists and the so-called Communists were fighting over the same pie - They were all Facists. Don't confuse Stalinesque rhetoric for clear thinking. To Stalin, every opponent or rival was a Fascist. But, what Stalin practiced was closer to Fascism than to classic Marxism.

RCV| 1.21.13 @ 6:29PM

No argument from me on your last sentence, JP. Stalin was a thug, pure and simple. He didn't have an intellectual or ideological thought in his life.

Cobalt| 1.18.13 @ 8:30AM

Neosocialism might be a fitting word to use when trying to describe Obama's agenda.

Obama's neosocialism seems to be quite comfortable with the concept of fascism.

If the government doesn't have to own the means of production, but can still control it, then the government can try not to take responsibility for any failure of policy. The government can just blame such failure on the private sector.

Obama might be the new cool, hip King of Neosocialism.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 8:47AM

I miss Wynn's Obama bashing rants. What happenned to them?

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 8:52AM

Mackey is an idiot - Whole Foods already offers the employee health coverage cutoff that's under Obamacare, and the system he's been praising - Switzerland - is a similarly regulated mandated universal private insurance market. And Obamacare was a conservative idea in the first place.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 10:14AM

Stop, Jack. Just stop. Your despicable dishonesty needs to end. You do not get to tell us what a "conservative idea" is. You don't get to define us. WE define us.

The first poster under this article is exactly right. Leftists believe that they own the dictionary - Orwellian-style. They've grown so used to simply redefining terms that they don't even realize it anymore.

George S| 1.18.13 @ 10:51AM

Thank you.

Simon Templar| 1.18.13 @ 11:16AM

Second that!

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 11:31AM

So JD - whose idea was the mandate? Who put in the MA system? I think you live in a one way bunker - you seem to have zero grip on recent history.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 11:44AM

It was Mitt Romney's idea. And because you are simple-minded and/or dishonest, you think that the fact that Mitt Romney had that idea makes it a conservative idea.

It does no such thing. An idea is a conservative idea if it aligns with conservative ideology, and an idea is a liberal idea if it aligns with liberal ideology. That's such a simple point that it seems amazing that you can't grasp it.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:12PM

No it wasn't Mitt's idea. You do need to do some reading as I've said to you before. Here's Wiki:

"An individual mandate to purchase healthcare was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation in 1989 as an alternative to single-payer health care. From its inception, the idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a free-market approach to health-care reform. The individual mandate was felt to resonate with conservative principles of individual responsibility, and conservative groups recognized that the healthcare market was unique. Stuart Butler, an early supporter of the individual mandate at the Heritage Foundation, wrote:
If a young man wrecks his Porsche and has not had the foresight to obtain insurance, we may commiserate, but society feels no obligation to repair his car. But health care is different. If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance."

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:20PM

Nothing you wrote changes the fact that the individual mandate runs very contrary to the ideals of conservatism. You seem to think that you can avoid debating issues on their merits if you can simply associate your critics with something bad, or with someone who aligns with you.

I don't know what self-delusion makes you think that way, but it doesn't matter. You're still wrong.

And you don't even have to understand conservatism to know you're wrong. The key is in your own quote: "as an alternative to single-payer health care." These erstwhile "conservatives" only went down the "individual mandate" road as an alternative to something even worse. To say that this implies conservative love for individual mandates is like saying that the Leukemia patient who chooses chemo over death actually likes chemo!

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:22PM

Once again, you Leftists cannot function without straw men. The ONLY tactic you EVER employ in "debate" with a conservative is to misdefine conservatism.

It seems the only people who can honestly define conservatism are those who believe in it.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:42PM

The Heritage Foundation later in the 1990s wrote that the IM was a very poor idea.

Seek| 1.18.13 @ 1:34PM

You're absolutely right, Jack. And I read all the background papers Stuart Butler and his health care policy wingmen, Robert Moffit and Ed Haislmaier, published back then. I happen to know these people personally. The Heritage plan provided the rudiments of what became, in more State-controlled form, the Obama plan.

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 11:32AM

And, JD, you don't get to define us, either. You calling something "fascist" or "socialist" doesn't make it so.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 11:42AM

Of course it doesn't. Aligning with the dictionary definitions of those terms makes it so. I'm the only one of us who seems to understand how that works.

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 2:36PM

The "dictionary" you use is self-written.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 6:25PM

One of us has that problem, but it is not I.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 6:30PM

One of the Left's tactics in calling Fascism "right-wing" has been to connect it to several other lies that the Left tells about the Right.

For example, the Left frequently calls the Right "racist." There is no basis in fact for associating political conservatism with racism, but the Left, being incapable of comprehending that someone might believe that its ideas don't work, smugly declares that anyone who opposes its policies regarding race - Affirmative Action, social welfare, etc - cannot do so for any reason other than being racist. They can't allow for the possibility that we think these programs hurt the poor and minorities (as they do).

Having so dubiously established that the Right is racist, the Left then associates the Right with Fascism, which has historically included racist elements.

We on the Right find it perfectly understandable that supporters of institutionalized racism in the form of Affirmative Action and other legal preferences would commonly support Fascism as well. The Left just has it backwards.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:41PM

No, ObamaCare or Universal Healthcare was not a conservative idea. What you are referring to is the mandatory purchasing of health insurance, which came out of the Heritgage Foundation as an idea (not a policy, mind you); the Heritgage Foundation has many ideas, and as far as the mandatory purchasing of health insurance, they later in the 1990s wrote that it was a very poor idea, indeed.

RCV| 1.18.13 @ 2:45PM

Right, JP. So it wasn't a "conservative idea". It was an idea thought up by a conservative think-tank. Feel better now?

JD| 1.18.13 @ 6:31PM

It was an idea thought up by people who called themselves conservatives. You would know about calling things conservative when they're not, wouldn't you?

If you get run over by a red car, but I call it a blue car, does that mean it was a blue car?

RCV| 1.19.13 @ 12:25PM

So now the Heritage Foundation is not conservative either. Your narrowing definition will eventually lead to a party of one - you, the only true "conservative".

JD| 1.19.13 @ 7:19PM

My "narrow definition" is simply the definition of conservatism. Those who advocate conservatism are conservative. Those who do not, are not. And a person can change over time.

Mender| 1.18.13 @ 9:02AM

Are Canada, France and Britain fascist countries then? This isn't going to convert any Obama voters, just make them more defensive of their standpoint.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 9:33AM

Yes it's really fascist of them to promote business and social agility with universal healthcare.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 10:15AM

And there we go. The Leftist is so trapped in the idea that intentions are all that matter that he can't so much as comprehend the idea that other people can believe that his ideas don't achieve what he intends.

Choke on your good intentions, Jack. They've done terrible harm to this country for generations.

Warrior| 1.18.13 @ 12:23PM

They may not be controlled by a facist government, however, their healthcare is being controlled by a facist system. JD, stop trying to have a rational discussion with irrational dolts. They love the government and believe it should be all powerful. If Obamacare is such good legislation, why are over a 1,000 companies waivered from it and why do the ruling elite refuse to have it replace their Cadillac plans?

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:38PM

I'd be careful if I were you - countries such as Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands have mixed private/public systems (as we do with Medicare of course). It's just that they cover everyone for far less cost and with better outcomes. In the UK, plenty of people also buy extra health insurance mainly to get a better room and sometimes faster treatment by the same doctors. Truly fascist that is.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 1:23PM

When analyzing specific types of needs and outcomes, America consistently looks like the best country in the world. When ignoring a lot of context and using cherry-picked statistics in broad categories like "life expectancy", one can make Europe look better.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:49PM

"America consistently looks like the best country in the world"

Ha ha ha - that's a real funny thing you said, son. My children have your innocence - but they are in grade school.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 6:32PM

Your certainty has no basis, and deep down you know that you've gotten it from nowhere but the say-so of your fellow Leftists.

George S| 1.18.13 @ 10:49AM

ObamaCare promotes business the way Hitler was promoting train travel for Jews.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 11:40AM

I'd pick a more extreme and offensive comparison George if I were you. For the record, we all know that true security and business mobility will come with single payer and ending employer insurance - as they do in France, canada and the UK.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 11:45AM

Ah, the blind confidence of the Leftist! The facts don't support him at all, but Jack simply says "we all know...", hoping that we'll just believe him even though it's the opposite of the truth!

George S| 1.18.13 @ 12:04PM

Jack, in case you missed it, ObamaCare was based on the premise of 47 million uninsured Americans and the high cost of policies -- not on the lack of mobility. Yet somehow those 47 million are forgotten and no one I know of has seen that $2500 reduction in their policy premium.

Also, Obama was very careful to disavow mandated and single payer during his debates with Hillary in 2008.

Even Hitler did not advocate the concentration camps in 1933. Funny how things turn out after suckers like you are brainwashed with sugar plum visions of Utopia.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:28PM

George do pay attention - the point is that those countries that have personal universal care have people who can change jobs or start a business without losing insurance, as well as not worrying about cost. Obamacare is a compromise to appease the right, as you well know.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:43PM

The Left will always call its actions "bipartisan compromises" no matter what they actually are.

As for the association of insurance with jobs, or even the use of "insurance" to pay for health care, both of these were pioneered by Leftists, and both are bad ideas that Leftists have stuck us with. Their tax preferences for the current model ensure that it remains deep-seated in our society.

George S| 1.18.13 @ 12:45PM

Having insurance is not the same as medical care. The Brits who starved to death in St. George had insurance. As did the ones who died of dehydration.

But such is the price of Utopia.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:40PM

You're being too hard on him, George.

Hitler had Universal Health Care, as did Stalin, Castro, and North Korea.

Canada has a Rationing Board, as does Britain.

Waiting for a Life Saving Procedures can take Months, if not Years, to get.

Obama, himself, has told us, in his own words, that If your Mother needs an Expensive Medical Procedure to SAVE HER LIFE?

It might be better for The Masses, if she just gets Pain Pills until she DROPS DEAD, rather than spend one thin dime on her Worthless Life.

What's wrong with that?

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:45PM

Anytime the federal government colludes with big business to concoct universal goals the end result is Fascism. ObamaCare is a classic point of interest. Other instances are The New Deal (which was largely written by employees from dozens of Fortune 100 firms); Sarbanes Oxely (which was written largely by members of the Big 3 Accounting Firms). Would you like me to give more examples?

Seek| 1.19.13 @ 12:46AM

That may be collusion, but that alone doesn't make it fascism. Fascism, most of all, is a political style, not simply State and corporation working out certain goals. France, for example, has had decades of this dirigisme-style capitalism. Yet that isn't "fascism." DeGaulle led the fight against fascism, not for it.

When will fellow conservatives stop relying on a single bad book by Jonah Goldberg to justify reimagining the entire 20th century?

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 9:38AM

Nope, they are not fascist countries. They allow their citizens to come to the USA for the healthcare denied in their home countries.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 9:49AM

No, not because it's denied - it's for mainly rare and often unproven treatments. And there are many more of us traveling abroad for treatment than coming here.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 9:58AM

http://voices.washingtonpost.c.....t_sur.html

JD| 1.18.13 @ 10:17AM

Defend your claims, Jack.

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 10:38AM

Jack, your full of crap. I live in Houston, home of the largest medical center in the world and home of some of the best hospitals in the world. Maybe you should come here and see how many foreigners are here getting treatment they can't get anywhere else either because it isn't offered anwhere else or the government run hospitals where they come from refuse to spend resources on children or old folks.
Jack, if Obama took a dump in your plate and told you it was a T-Bone you'd eat it and tell us all how good it tasted. Like all brainwashed liberals you beleive your lies before they get past your lips.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 11:53AM

Yes I know about MD Anderson etc. I agree we have some of the most advanced treatments. They are also extremely expensive. Many people the world over also go to European hospitals, and many Americans - up to about a million now - get treatment abroad in countries such as India because it is so much cheaper.

And for those who think the FDA bans unproven treatments - that just isn't true. Just look at http://www.burzynskiclinic.com - and guess where this is. That's right: Houston.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:13PM

That link lends no evidence to your claim whatsoever. Even if you did find an example of an unproven treatment not banned, that wouldn't prove that there is no banning at all.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 12:28PM

Many go to India for treatment, especially major surgery, because their insurance companies that these patients VOLUNTARILY purchased COMPELS them to go there for coverage. Most receive competent care there. Two problems with this:

1-Immense logistical issues

2nd-Even in the most competent hands, complications in some eventually occur. When that happens, the treating physicians are thousands of miles away.

A brief synopsis of some of the ethical issues about medical tourism can be foud at:

http://news.harvard.edu/gazett.....l-tourism/

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:33PM

The point stands that many Americans go abroad because of costs. Some countries such as Costa Rica and Mexico are not far away.

George S| 1.18.13 @ 12:54PM

And how will the employees of Whole Foods pay for the plane ride, hotel and doctor bills of a Costa Rican or Mexican medical vacation when ObamCare makes it unaffordable for Whole Foods to continue with the policies?

Let me fill in your response:

George, in case you haven't noticed, it's called the Affordable care act so it won't be unaffordable. Besides, don't you know this was a conservative idea?

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:03PM

As I pointed out Whole Foods already more than meets Obamacare requirements. They are a model company. So much for being threatened with fascism.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 1:25PM

Their own management seems to think it will cost them a lot, but you clearly know better, Jack.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 2:04PM

No Jack, they don't choose to go out of the USA(including those whose first language is not English). They are compelled to do so in most cases by their insurance company because those companies offered cheaper insurance. I would be willing to bet most are not happy about traveling to a foreign country for major medical procedures. I'm sure you have heard the saying; You get what you pay for. I assure you most people don't choose to go out of the USA for "better" medical care (possibly excepting Michael Moore).

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 2:47PM

You mean they have to travel because their co-pays/deductibles/caps are too much. That's why we have Obamacare - to regulate the market so people get decent insurance. There's no reason why people should be forced out of the country.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 3:28PM

Wrong..do a little objective research and you will find that as a consequence of Obamacare, millions more will have their health care paid for (dramatically increasing our national debt in the process) and a significant # of docs are expected to retire. Couple that with the demographic aging of the general population, which in and of itself will result in greater demand for medical services, and what is predicted is restricted access to the health care system, much as is the case now in Canada, Britain, and the other countries you hold up as shining examples. This will create a perverse incentive for those with means to seek healthcare outside the country in specialty clinics that will pop up in the Caribbean islands, Central America or elsewhere, or if it can legally exist in this country (I don't know if Obamacare addresses this specifically) an enhanced parallell health care system in this country for the wealthy.

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 3:34PM

Jack, when it comes to my health I don't mind paying more for a doctor that I know actually went to medical school. Fact is, Indians go back to India, just as Venezualans go back to Venezuala. So they can get their free socialized medicine because they are too damned cheap to buy insurance or pay the high cost we have here. And why do we have sych high costs here Jack? Because of liberal programs that force those of us whpo are responsible to pay the healtcare costs of those who are in the country illegaly, or those who use drugs or quit school and can't get a decent job. Also because we have to pay the costs of all the lawsuits, you know the ones the ambualnce chasers file. The lawyers that the democrats love so much.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 3:38PM

Yeah, what he said!

George S| 1.18.13 @ 10:47AM

It's the other way around. Americans will go to Canada for treatment options that are highly experimental. In the U.S. the FDA prohibits guinea pig patients for medical research. Canada is out of their reach.

Stkman| 1.18.13 @ 11:16AM

George, you are correct for those who are terminal and need an experimental medicine, although things are changing here in the U.S. in that regard. Overall though, more patiens come to the U.S. for treatment and diagnosis.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:42PM

Stkman.

Contest at Monday's Story: The Noble Savage.

old white guy| 1.18.13 @ 10:03AM

squalis, only if they have the cash to do so. very few provinces in canada will cover the cost unless it is something that cannot be done in canada.

squalis| 1.18.13 @ 11:10AM

I don't dispute that. That is not my point. Everywhere in the world, the greater ones means, the more options available. My point is to dispute the suggestion from Jack who should go to London for his health care and Mender that there is something superior about the socialized medical systems of other countries when compared to our own. I think my link above to WaPo above proves my point. The Canadian Premier referenced has far more credibility on this matter than those who offer random, expedient comments such as Jack and Mender.

holmegm| 1.18.13 @ 10:34AM

No, they have socialist health care (government owned and run), as opposed to nominally privately owned health care companies that are actually controlled by government (fascism).

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 1:21PM

Mender - don't worry, doesn't matter what anyone calls it now - it's law, it's final, they'll all get used to it like Social Security and Medicare.

It's a good idea, regardless of right wing screeching about it.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 1:26PM

The above is the best argument the Left can muster.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:48PM

Goldstein. Don't worry about it. The rounding up of Jews, their Imprisonment, and Extermination is already the Law. It's Final.

Everybody needs to Get Used To It, and just SHUT UP.

That went for HOMOSEXUALS as well, you Stupid Bastard.

SC| 1.18.13 @ 3:39PM

Has "God" ordered the roundup and extermination of the Jews--as s/he did -according to you-during The Holocaust , for their "misbehavior"?

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 5:23PM

Oh, timmy - let's see...
Rounding up the Jews and Implementing Obamacare - one to kill, the other to save -- let me consider carefully, I wouldn't want to miss a single detail.

Oh, yeah, they are exactly the same. These arguments are why you lose. So extreme, so ridiculous, it's laughable.
LMFAO.
You can't stop Obamacare's implementation, why would you? And most Americans want it - so you REALLY can't stop it.

But like I said, YOU can opt out ... let me think, now could the Jews opt out?

Yeah, exactly the same. How stupid you are. ROFL, laughing stock.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 5:47PM

Purpie the Village Idiot wrote:

"Purp| 11.8.12 @ 10:35AM

"The Lord rules, not Obama." - CORRECT!

The Lord works in mysterious ways... and this is something for the faithful to contemplate in the way the see the world:

Hurricane Sandy and Chris Christie was the Lord's way of pressing his thumb on the scale to tilt in the direction of President Obama. It was His punishment of Republicans for their lying and trying to cheat (Voter Suppression) their way to political victory, while espousing faith, freedom and constitutional credentials."

So God killed and injured hudreds of persons, and destroyed millions of dollars of property to elect Obama, according the Village Idiot

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 9:25AM

You really AREN'T familiar with Whole Foods...

It's not just a sanctuary for vegetarians and vegans, although those so inclined will find much to be happy about.

Whole Foods sells meat...and lots of it, too. Only it's not the crap, factory-raised, corn-fed meet that you're likely to get at the A&P. It's organically raised (meaning free range for chicken and grass-fed for beef, lamb, etc), and free of antibiotics and hormones...and really, really good.

Whole Foods is great.

Simon Templar| 1.18.13 @ 11:23AM

Yes, I like it as well.
This the rub. They do not own the language, eating well, organic gardening, self sufficient living, environmental awareness, recycling, or anything else they co-opt, infuse with their left wing politics and meaning, and use as wedge to promote some sort of superiority. These ideas have been around a lot longer then the Left as existed. Take them back.

Tom of the Missouri| 1.18.13 @ 11:33AM

I also shop at Whole Foods for their good meat and even lamb chops that Mr. Caron thinks are unhealthy. I also like their much better eggs and butter derived from pasture raised and fed animals. As capitalist go in the Obama era, I think Mr. Mackey is a breath of fresh air despite his groveling to the stupid Obama sycophant Nora O'Donnel. I also enjoy watching all the hippie girls in the store despite my differences with their politics. What really annoys me though are conservative commentators making nutrition references in their articles the belies their complete ignorance of the subject. Oddly this writer considers himself a healthcare expert.. There are many but I suggest one book you should read before ever again commenting on the subject. That book is Good Caloreis Bad Calories by science writer Gary Taubes with emphasis on the word science. I also recommend Michael Pollen's The Omnivore Dilemma. The latter involves shooting guns and hating government intrusion into the food supply. If you generally hate big government as I do you will love both books. How you could be a health care expert and apparently not be aware of the info in these books boggles the mind. I also recommend you take a look at the website of the Weston Price Foundation. There are a lot of hippies that work there but they actually know what they are talking about and most of them also eat meat - healthy meat. They also like fish, eggs and even like raw milk.

Tom of the Missouri| 1.18.13 @ 11:33AM

Have you seen lately what the facisist government is trying to do lately with their armed swat teams to raw milk producers and small organic farmers while they waste billions protecting and subsidizing big ag with their deadly food. Why exactly does conservative have to be equivalent to nutritional stupidity?

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 11:53AM

Yes, I have: armed SWAT-teams raiding dairys, and making people dump-out gallons of raw milk.

DISGUSTING.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:50PM

As well as Agriculture Department Officals, going to Family Owned Farms and SLAUGHTERING THEIR LIVESTOCK.

Sieg HEIL!

Tom of the Missouri| 1.18.13 @ 11:54AM

From what I have learned nothing would make one a conservative faster than being involved in healthy food distribution and production in America. It is not hard to figure out how John Mackey has come to his views. I also suggest looking up the methods and travails of Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms in Virginia for his view of government intrusion into his business of attempting to run a sustainable (both economically and environmental small family farm and selling his food without government intrusion. Farmer Salatin makes Mr. Mackey look like a leftist. These folks are natural conservative allies. They have seen big government up close and they don't like it. If you are looking for new constituents you could look no further than the shoppers at Whole Foods. Did you ever hear about the Buycott (that is the opposite of a boycott) that was held at Whole Foods here in St. Louis by the local Tea Party? Natural allies indeed.

Simon Templar| 1.18.13 @ 1:16PM

Tom, excellent commentary and excellent points!

Job| 1.18.13 @ 2:16PM

like

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 11:50AM

"What really annoys me though are conservative commentators making nutrition references in their articles the belies their complete ignorance of the subject."

EXCELLENT POINT!!!!

Too many self-anointed "conservative" commentators have knee-jerk reactions to ANYTHING related to health or nutrition, as if the very ideas of healthy eating belong prima facie to the left, so they should be ignored.

The perfect example took place several months back on Rush's show. I distinctly remember a woman calling (it must have been Open-Line Friday) in response to something Rush said about the Paleo-style of eating. She said she was a devotee of Paleo-eating, and was a sort of "food activist," meaning she wants people to understand the importance of nutrition, what's in store-bought food, etc.

Even though she identified herself as a dedicated Conservative and firm believer in free-market capitalist, Rush was FIXATED on the word "activist," assuming that must have sinister, leftwing, do-gooder connotations.

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 1:19PM

Believe it or not - I agree with you whole(foods) heartedly. Great place.

Stevemmn| 1.18.13 @ 9:45AM

Mackey was right the first time. Obamacare is a fascist healthcare system and Obama is a fascist.

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 1:18PM

Tough - live with it. It is LAW.

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 2:18PM

I like your attitude!

When America is finally returned to it's rightful owners, and law-and-order restored, we hope you'll remember and be nice and compliant!

Otherwise...

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 5:32PM

We have already taken our country back from the Tea Party radicals, the Corporate Feudal Lords, and the right wing fringe element.

Sadly for you, you are in the minority, so you have a lot to get used to from here on out.

We will now have a kinder, more prosperous nation going forward, where the middle class, including you, will benefit, reversing the trend of serfdom set by Ronald Reagan over 30 years ago, when America's middle class demise began.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 5:47PM

Purpie/arnie the foul mouth Village Idiot wrote:

"Purp| 11.8.12 @ 10:35AM

"The Lord rules, not Obama." - CORRECT!

The Lord works in mysterious ways... and this is something for the faithful to contemplate in the way the see the world:

Hurricane Sandy and Chris Christie was the Lord's way of pressing his thumb on the scale to tilt in the direction of President Obama. It was His punishment of Republicans for their lying and trying to cheat (Voter Suppression) their way to political victory, while espousing faith, freedom and constitutional credentials."

So God killed and injured hudreds of persons, and destroyed millions of dollars of property to elect Obama, according the Village Idiot

Col Bat Guano| 1.18.13 @ 9:54AM

Meh. WFM is too expensive for us. I liked their stock - it's been going the Apple way for the past 6 months.

Col Bat Guano| 1.18.13 @ 9:54AM

Meh. WFM is too expensive for us. I liked their stock - it's been going the Apple way for the past 6 months.

Denver Todd| 1.18.13 @ 10:01AM

Sometime back a local paper celebrated the building a new county health clinic in what was an empty lot filled by a mortuary across the street from a cemetery. Nobody asked why we need another clinic in a city with plenty of hospitals, but I wrote in that it was just another wealth transfer, since the patients don't pay for their services, the staff don't offer a service on a the open market. Even worse, these shiny new buildings, including new clinics and libraries, employ people with higher skills while the rank and file unemployed remains unemployed, but pays the taxes to keep his brethren warm.

But I digress. While I was driving by the new clinic rising into the sky, I thought that if providing more healthcare is not the reason to build more clinics, then what would go on there? I wondered if doctors, or someone else in those clinics, will be the new neighbhorhood watch of today's century? I imagined that instead of going to the clinic just when I am sick, I am required to go yearly to report on my activities and risks. The government will say that this will control expenses, and the people will go along because healthcare is now a zero sum game in which we are all tied together.

holmegm| 1.18.13 @ 10:35AM

When *do* we get to call it fascism, then?

When he *officially* creates an Obama-jungen for those kids in the creepy "sing Obama's praises" YouTube videos?

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 1:36PM

Already did. Remember the service Corp. better armed than the military?

Kwan| 1.18.13 @ 10:58AM

No doubt agents from the Ministry of Truth had a serious talk with CEO Mackey, and he was told that if he didn't want to find out what his left ear tasted like he better shut-up. I once heard an old Argentinian describe Peron's version of government healthcare as "Cattle Car" medicine. You were shuffled into a stall evaluated, then shuffled into another stall and given an injection or APC (all purpose capsule), then shuffled into another stall to make a follow-up appointment some months into the future. It was the illusion of health care. The real purpose of ObamaCare is to condition the populace into accepting more and more control of their daily lives by the central government in essence BigBrotherCare.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:52PM

Contest at Monday's Story: The Noble Savage.

We need you.

Marc Jeric| 1.21.13 @ 3:32AM

Let us review briefly the history of the British health care system:
When the system was nationalized in 1948 by the then Labor government, their health care system had
a) 480,000 hospital beds serviced by 350,000 staff;
b) In 2002 their system had 186,000 hospital beds serviced by 882,000 staff; and
c) In 2008 (latest data in my posession) their system had 160,000 hospital beds serviced by 1,368,000 staff.
Let us extrapolate these data to year 2020:
their system will have ZERO hospital beds serviced by 8,000,000 staf (all unionized, of course).

Simon Templar| 1.18.13 @ 11:12AM

Tyranny, good word for it.
What conservatives need to learn is that language of politics is key to power. Not in a politically correct way as this is a tyrannical abuse of the power of language but rather in a smart and politically useful way to communicate effectively and break down their political correctness, their manipulation of the language, and their dominance in this area.
The other lesson is to support not detract those that are aligned with us. Catron needs to shop at whole foods just to piss them off. He needs to not throw the CEO overboard because he was pressured or pushed around by the leftist media cabal. Stop the prima donna bullshit and get wise.
In fact his article should have been attacking the media and the left for their intimidation and ignorance and wholeheartedly been supporting the CEO and his point that this is indeed fascistic like and tyrannical.

fmm| 1.18.13 @ 12:11PM

Mr. Mackey represents all that is wrong with so called thinking people. He was exactly right to use the word fascist in describing Obamacare but is too damn weak to stick to his guns. This is exactly why we are in the problems we have today because most of the members of congress are just as wimpy. Hey Mackey, how about a hamburger today that you can pay for tomorrow (a'la Wimpy of Popeye fame). Might increase your store sales also - haha.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 12:36PM

Wow! Who put the nickle in Jack L. today. Must have hit a nerve talking about taking away his government (paid for by someone other than himself, and thereby immoral) health care. My Dr. quit last year when he saw what was coming.

BTW, when government takes money from some by force to give to others which it chooses is that not the same as theft? If I put a gun to you to get your money for the poor homeless guy on the corner, do I not commit the same crime?

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 12:40PM

Yawn, Al. I guess you'll be telling us next you'd repeal EMTALA and leave people to die on the streets rather than get everyone covered.

JP| 1.18.13 @ 12:48PM

But since 2010 everyone is covered, and people are still dieing in the streets.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:09PM

EMTALA was introduced by Reagan and is still in place. As you know, Obamacare is being implemented over several years.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 1:31PM

...and charity at the point of a gun is no charity at all...it is theft and immoral.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:40PM

The trouble is Al it's all very well you having these mighty principles but would you turn a dying man away from the hospital because he had no insurance?

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 2:46PM

Specious argument Jack, rhetorical flourish. Believe it or not the dying are not turned away from hospitals. In my rather small benighted community our community hospital treats all and writes off millions every year. The hospital board manages its income and costs very well without recourse to the voters and taxes, it is self-sustaining. Yes those of us who do pay have a bit higher cost, but none go wanting. That is community action without the coercive power of government.

TLP| 1.18.13 @ 2:59PM

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

A specious argument from Jackass from London?

No way!

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 4:03PM

TLP: I laugh with you.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 3:49PM

Uncompensated care is more than $40 billion a year, about 6% of costs. In states with high numbers of uninsured it has been a huge cost, paid for with local tax rises and premium hikes. I really can't see the value to you in undoing wider coverage in which people have to contribute. Are you saying you're happy to pay more rather than less?

And in fact your community hospital is just acting like a small government in raising funds from you.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 4:02PM

"Are you saying you're happy to pay more rather than less?" YES. My community is therefore self sufficient and non-reliant upon either local or state or national government for cost coverage. My small hospital does not tax, it allocates cost. Big difference as no Force (read government threats) are involved. Similar statements could be made about Religious hospitals operated as charities albeit they are currently under threat from government for refusing to perform government preferred procedures.

Have a great evening and weekend.

JD| 1.18.13 @ 12:49PM

Again Jack requires us to believe that his party's ideas work out as he intends instead of... what actually happens.

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 1:16PM

It's neither - it's American Law, passed by Congress, signed by the President ... and validated by the Supreme Court, set to by fully implemented at the end of this year.

It's done, so move on, stop kicking a dead horse. Don't you have anything else to discuss?

If you don't want it, don't buy insurance, pay the fine and be on your own. It's dumb, but then you can leave the rest of us alone.

Al Adab| 1.18.13 @ 1:35PM

"An act of usurpation is not obligatory, it is not law. "Resistance to such law is justified."

Theophilus Parsons at the MA ratifying Convention during debate on the powers of Congress.

The passage of time and continuance of a "long series of usurpations" does not make it less reprehensible.

Jack London| 1.18.13 @ 1:45PM

You poor man. You must have a terrible time when you have to file your tax return as I presume in your bunker you've eliminated any dependency on any external agency. It must get a bit dull living off hydroponic lentils though.

davidh| 1.18.13 @ 1:47PM

Don't try to bend the spoon,
that's impossible.
Just realize the truth,
there is no spoon."

Our perception must change. We believe there is a choice. A choice between two parties. A choice between two candidates. This is the illusion.

Those with money and power (the elite) have taken that choice and created this illusion.

The real prize is our freedom. In the history of the civilized world no men have been free as we are in America. Never

This is resented by those who believe they are destined to rule us. Look at just the recent history of the last century. Is that an aberration? No, there are men who are evil. Tyrants. They are intent on domination and control. I do not know why there are such men. But they exist and are tireless.

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 2:24PM

Well said.

The choice is not between Democrat or Republican; it is between living free, or willfully kneeling over a shallow grave with a pistol pointed at the back of your head.

Doctor Right| 1.18.13 @ 2:22PM

So you think that maybe the Emancipation Proclamation was a bad idea, right?

I mean, after all...slavery WAS "the law," wasn't it?

And what are your thoughts on Hitler's racial "purity" laws? That was 100% legal, passed by the Reichstag, and signed into law by the Chancellor.

You see, left-wing dumbass...when you shoot your mouth off about things you don't really understand, you look like a moron.

And you ARE a moron.

davidh| 1.18.13 @ 2:40PM

Are you being paid to blog? How many sites do you work?

How much do you make doing this kind of work?

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Good luck

JD| 1.18.13 @ 6:34PM

Purp's words resemble those once used to defend slavery. The argument works just as well in both cases.

CJW| 1.18.13 @ 6:49PM

Purp the Village Idiot
The Supreme Court validated slavery in Dred Scott, segregation in Plessy v. Ferguson, your favorite: the killing of unborn children in Roe/Casey, FDR's internment of Japanese in WWII , forced sterilizations of the retarded, and similar attacks on the liberty of persons by the government, all of which you approve.

stmichrick| 1.18.13 @ 1:41PM

It's a no-brainer to anyone who knew the definition of fascism prior to knowing ObamaCare. Trouble is, the Left has had a monopoly on that term ever since the Sixties 'Enlightenment' period where it came to mean any resistance to their ideas and sensibilities.

Maybe as we proceed further down the Socialist/Fascist Road with Obama some of the young who have read history will pick up a pattern here.

Purp| 1.18.13 @ 5:33PM

I think that ship has sailed ... you won't see the youth hoodwinked like you were earlier.

SC| 1.18.13 @ 3:32PM

"....react as if they had discovered lamb chops lurking among the bean sprouts and bottles of carrot juice.."

Just wondering if the author of this article has ever actually been inside a Whole Foods store..

While they do have a great selection of vegetables and fruit-and they do carry a wide selection of non-meat/meat-substitute /vegan/ items, they ALSO have a huge butcher shop--and many varieties of packaged meats.

They also have regular snacks/ice-cream/"junk" items/candy.

One is free to have opinions on whatever the CEO of the Company said or meant---and agree or strongly disagree-BUT- there is no reason to use the lame and silly stereo-type of what he "thinks" the Store is--it really makes whatever point he is trying to make meaningless and more than slightly laughably dumb

Kingofthenet| 1.18.13 @ 4:06PM

Maybe it's Cryto-Socialist-Fascism. I mean seriously, complaining you actually have to do some basic Health-Care for your employees?

Kingofthenet| 1.18.13 @ 4:37PM

Being completely out of step with your predominately Liberal Customer Base is dangerous territory to a guy hawking 'Fair Trade' products at super-high prices.

stmichrick| 1.18.13 @ 5:52PM

Purp; methinks you've got it backward. Could you possibly be a member of the newest political demographic? The Low Info Voter?

hrgfue | 1.18.13 @ 10:18PM

2013 Happy New Year,NFL,NBA,Fashion kickoff for u

hrgfue | 1.18.13 @ 10:18PM

2013 Happy New Year,NFL,NBA,Fashion kickoff for u

Ralph Novy| 1.19.13 @ 1:11PM

"As a general rule, I avoid “healthy” food whenever possible. I try to eat things with extra fat and lots of additives. This is a conscious strategy that should assure that I keel over before being left to the tender mercies of Medicare after the Obama administration has transformed it into a system that rations care based on a Byzantine formula that purports to measure how many “quality” years of life a patient has left. Moreover, if I consume enough chemical additives, I can save my family some money by arriving at the funeral home pre-embalmed."

Excellent plan.

Do we decent folks a favor and carry through with it, would you, please?

Methinks you're of the "savior of the world" variety of narcissist, Catron. The world "needs" you, even though it doesn't know it. It will sorely miss you when you're gone.

Uh-huh.

Bye-bye!

Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 1.20.13 @ 8:30PM

I never shop at Whole Foods they overcharge for absolutely everything under the pretense of being "organic". Around the Bay Area many people jokingly call the store "Whole Paycheck Market", because if you shop there you could very well spend your whole paycheck there.

Cats1cowboy| 1.20.13 @ 11:43PM

What it is not, is one of the limited enumerated powers granted to the federal government by the united States and therefore illegal.

Marc Jeric| 1.21.13 @ 3:24AM

Nazism or facism? Ridiculous question. Hotler's party was officially called "German National Socialist Workers Party". Mussolini's party was officially called "Italian Socialist Party". Those criminals were both of the extreme left kind!

Pablo| 1.24.13 @ 2:10PM

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Nothing left-wing about it.

Pablo| 1.24.13 @ 1:32PM

It's amazing that you've written an article about Obamacare without once mentioning The Heritage Group, the right wing think tank that came up with the idea, or Romneycare, the first time that idea was implemented (by a republican).

It's also interesting that while you call Obamacare "fascism" (betting on the notion that most of your readers don't know what that word means), you fail to connect the dots: every developed country in the world has a national healthcare program that is far more comprehensive than Obamacare, so basically the war has been lost and the world at large has become fascist. Is that your belief?

billstanley | 1.25.13 @ 8:54AM

The "Origination Clause" in the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 7) requires that taxes be initiated in the House. The Senate took a House bill dealing with veterans and deleted the title and all text, leaving only the bill's number. ObamaCare was then inserted. The Supreme Court characterized the penalties in ObamaCare as federal taxes, but was not asked and did not address the issue of which body of Congress initiated the taxes. The Pacific Legal Foundation has filed a suit (U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia) challenging ObamaCare on this issue. newsandopinions dot net

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