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A Further Perspective
Fisheaters
Catholic calls for the renewal of Latin Mass, confession, and meatless Fridays cannot but strengthen the Church.
In the thousands of years before the inventions of the telegraph, television, and Internet, continents and even countries were isolated from each other for most intents and purposes. Other than trade and conquest, there were really no reasons or means for one culture to be influenced by another.
And for most of her history, the United States of America was a nation of immigrants who arrived with some vestiges of their former ethnicities that did not separate, but served only to forge what became known as the American culture: founded on Judeo-Christian values but with an abiding tolerance for all faiths; grounded in the rule of law yet tempered with a love for justice. She was an odd but lovely combination, overwhelming spirit of Yankee individualism that expressed itself in a deep concern for the rights and freedoms of all.
But with the advance of technology, the world became a “smaller” place, as they say, bringing many benefits to our shores. But coupled with the great moral upheavals of the 1960s, this increased access to the world also led to a dimming of the light of our culture; the diminution of what was once known as the American Way, our unique identity.
In the Catholic Church, technology and cultural upheaval brought a desire — an inordinately misguided one, according to many — to open her windows to “let in some fresh air.” And this was nowhere more true than in the United States, where the interpretations of the “spirit” of the Second Vatican Council by American bishops wreaked havoc upon the faithful in this country. As reported by an eager media teeming with young anti-establishment types for whom the Church represented perhaps the ultimate evil, Vatican II was portrayed as a get-out-of-jail card for millions of Catholic Americans imprisoned by the cruel and outdated dictates of Rome.
But these changes were met with dismay and confusion by most of the faithful. How well I remember my grandmother bewailing that St. Christopher had been “done away with!” when in fact, he was very much still a saint, whose feast day was merely removed from the General Roman Calendar due to difficulties with his historical identification. It was the relatively minor actions of Vatican II like this which received much gleeful attention from the media.
Still, there were other, more significant changes which, whether or not officially sanctioned by Rome, led to much more confusion and disillusionment. Perhaps willfully misjudging the intent of the Council, the majority of American bishops followed the lead of the press and ignored what was contained in most of the actual documents, in favor of the broadest interpretations of a few, and even expanding beyond them. Gone in just a few years were many of the traditional treasures of Catholic worship, the worst loss being the virtual abandonment of the Tridentine, or Latin, Mass in America.
Today, many folks I know are Catholics in name only: those who treat their faith as some sort of inherited, ethnic embarrassment. They readily abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent and, indeed, resolve to “give up” something during it. They are thrilled to parade around with black smudges on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday but otherwise rarely see the inside of their local parish. But regrettably, it is probably mostly due to the abuses of Vatican II that they have no clue as to why they are doing these things. A truly sad state of affairs.
But as has happened throughout her history, through adversity — whether heresies or the personal sins of her members — the Church has grown stronger. There are millions of American Catholics who faithfully soldiered through the past few tumultuous decades, only to see young people and new converts embrace the faith in recent years. Pope Benedict XVI’s call for the return of the Latin Mass, as well as the new English translation of the Roman Missal, are encouraging to those who long for a more traditional form of worship.
In his address to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops last week, Cardinal Timothy Dolan called for a restoration of Friday abstinence, commonly referred to as meatless Fridays, as well as a renewed commitment to the frequent practice of the Sacrament of Penance, better known as confession. While many faithful Catholics have never stopped these practices, and indeed find their faith strengthened and even confirmed by them, a whole generation has been robbed of a precious heritage by their obsolescence.
A return to these solemn and ancient practices might seem strange at first to a generation of Catholics who have been raised in a culture of relativism and taught that nothing old is worthwhile. But even a discussion of the reasons behind these practices cannot but strengthen the entire Church.
Time will tell if, at this late date, the Church in America can recover her identity. But if she can, might not the rest of America? Stay tuned.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (77) | Leave a comment
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Appleby| 11.21.12 @ 6:59AM
We have a Latin Mass at the St. Vincent de Paul Oratory which has become the most popular service of all. In fact, the time had to be changed from 9:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. because our unionized subways refuse to start work until 9:00 on Sundays and people complained that they could not get to the service! I have travelled widely and have missed the days when a Catholic could step into a church anywhere in the world and know exactly what is going on. I know the Binkie Generation claims it cannot understand a service in Latin, although it can recite the names and attributes of 600 Pokemon characters and memorize 98 page Football Playbooks with ease; school children in one room prairie schools used to learn not only Latin but Greek, and so can Generation Whine. I am delighted to see tradition returning to a world that has industriously worked at destroying them all.
Mars the Avenger| 11.21.12 @ 7:38AM
Appleby, I do agree with you on your comments on the Binkie Generation. My grandparents, for the most part, illiterate peasants, understood the Latin Mass; our supposed educated should be able to, and even more so. What is encouraging, however, is that at the parish where I attend, St Athanasius in Vienna VA, many attendees are young families who saw nothing but Novus Ordo, but zealously attend the Latin Mass and have anywhere from three to eight children. A good sign for the future of our Church and for our country.
SUBVET| 11.21.12 @ 10:55AM
Only when the church starts "teaching" the WORD not "preching" word will it come full circle.
When was the last time you saw a catholic walk into church with a bible under his/her arm.
When the prest tells you to open the Bible to a certain page to follow him and explain what it means and to live your life as the Book of Life says then maybe the church will get on track.
No life groups in the catholic church.......life group what's that ?
FBX1999| 11.21.12 @ 3:33PM
SUBVET - Catholics don't need to carry Bibles into church, because we have missals in the pews. We have three readings every Sunday, and four on Easter, all of which are in the missal. Sunday Mass readings are on a three year cycle (currently on year B) and daily Mass is on a two year cycle. In that time, a Catholic will have heard (and read, if he or she cares to follow along) most of the New Testament, and a goodly part of the Old. I was raised an Evangelical Protestant, and only swam the Tiber in September of this year, and I never heard nearly as much scripture read in any Protestant church I attended as I do every Sunday in the Catholic Church.
btw, the Latin Mass is heavenly. I highly recommend all to check it out, even if not Catholic.
SUBVET| 11.23.12 @ 10:12AM
FBX....missals in pews and mass is heavenly, how is that going to know the Lord. With no disrespect I was raised a catholic and served mass and yes I still can recite it in latin, but in my experience the Bible was "preached" not "taught". In grade school we learned about God in a story form....we had no choice.
As an adult you should be in the word daily and when you attend your service the pastor should be "teaching" from the Bible. Reading scripture and then applying it to your everyday life is how you grow as a believer.
If the missals are in the pew and not part of your life I don't see how you will grow to be like Him.
A heavenly mass might be an experience to see but if your into an experience why not just go to a movie.
Let me ask you a question after the experience and you leave that missal in the pew......what next ?
sotto voce| 11.26.12 @ 8:05PM
Yes, I agree, the Latin Mass is stunningly beautiful. My father was Catholic and when I was small we regularly attended Mass even though I'm Episcopalian, as is my mother. To this day I can still hear those mysterious, sonorous Latin phrases in my mind's ear. The gorgeous ritual made an indelible mark on an impressionable nine year-old. I never understood why the Catholic Church abandoned something so inspiring.
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 2:55AM
The Missal has weekly lessons - readings from the Bible - and as FBX1999 says, a three year cycle of Sunday Masses gets the faithful Catholic attendee most of the New Testament and as much of the Old Testament as anyone's likely to get outside of a synagogue.
Whether you get your Bible from the Missal or from guided study in another church is a matter of taste and culture. My wife attends a Catholic parish here in Denver that has three Masses every Sunday, mostly full. Many of these people are Hispanic, and if the GOP isn't making headway among them, I have to believe it's lack of outreach.
These are good, conservative people who would be receptive to the conservative message IF someone explained it to them. If that happened, the deputy minority whip in the House, Diane DeGette, would be in trouble come election time in Colorado's First Congressional District. The GOP has to MAKE its own luck.
PJ| 11.21.12 @ 8:40AM
Actually it's the Baby Boom generation that's complaining about the Latin Mass the most.
The Mass-attending younger ones who do not remember or understand the ruckus over Vatican II, either go to the Ordinary or Extraordinary Rite with no complaints.
Moe Blotz| 11.21.12 @ 10:21AM
When youse mackerel snappers quit the fish routine on Fridays, the depletion of the great bounty of the seas slowed for awhile. Now the problem is global warming from the meat eaters raising all those ruminants and cloven hoofed varmints that belch and phart the greenhouse gasses. At least if yins go back to fish on Fridays you can feast on the farm raised stock and we will all be safer.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 3:06PM
The extent to which the Latin Church fixates on the use of Latin--either denigrating it or extolling it with equal fervor--is puzzling to me. In the Eastern Catholic Churches, we frequently celebrate primarily in English, but frequently revert to our traditional liturgical tongues for various parts of the service. Thus, we shall be singing in English, and the priest will chant the Ephonesis (the acclamation marking the end of a prayer) in, e.g., Slavonic or Greek or Arabic,, and the people will sing the response in the appropriate language. No big deal--we know the chants in all our languages, and find no difficulty in singing the fixed parts of the liturgy (and most of the more popular propers) in any of them. That the use or non-use of Latin should be a Church-dividing issue is just stupid.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 6:41PM
"I have travelled widely and have missed the days when a Catholic could step into a church anywhere in the world and know exactly what is going on."
More accurately, would be united to his fellow Roman Catholics by mutual incomprehension of what the priest was saying or doing. My fellow Eastern Catholics call this approach to the Tridentine rite the "argumentum ad tourismus"--and in fact, it really never was true, because, of course, there were always multiple rites in the Latin Church.
Beyond that, Appleby, like Liza, is blinded by nostalgia for a country only dimly remembered (if at all). So let me remind people: the dominant form of liturgy was the silent low Mass--no music, no nuthin'--just the priest mumbling at the altar, and the people clicking their Rosary beads. The nice thing about the low Mass (it was generally agreed) was brevity--a good priest, like a Civil War surgeon, worked fast. One could be in and out, "fulfilling one's obligation" in less than half an hour. It was abuses such as this that Sacrosanctum concilium was meant to remedy.
MelvinNC| 11.21.12 @ 7:09AM
The quickest way I received the revelation of God, was during the first Gulf War and a very large tracer round(bullet) went between me and another Marine.
I received Jesus real quick.
The second revelation was during a 122 rocket attack, by that time God me was best buddies, cause I was requesting a whole litany of things, namely keeping my skin in one piece to go home to my family.
I laugh now at this so called self-proclaimed non-believers aka atheists because they was praying to God harder than I was.
I like to think that God allowed my miserable butt to come back from a war in one piece because I made promises to him. Some I have done a relatively good job at keeping and then some I haven't put as much effort in it as I should.
I have listened to mass in more countries than I care to count, but the most beautiful sound on this earth is when mass is spoken in Latin. As a kid growing up my sisters went to a Catholic school, Saint Mary's and I used to sit outside and listen to the priests didn't have a clue what they were saying, but it soothed me.
Today's modern world makes no space for traditions that go back two thousand years. Then society wonders why it is in such a sorry state of affairs.
benny havens| 11.21.12 @ 7:10AM
All practicing Catholics witnessed the abolition of Church traditions fostered by the Woodstock long hairs (the lefties) back in those days.
They told the Church leaders they would bring in more followers if they allowed banging on guitars and singing folk songs during the mass, along with dropping Latin and not requiring women to cover the top of their heads while in church.
Now the Holy Father wants to return to Latin. It’s about time.
NE-Conservative| 11.21.12 @ 8:03AM
Excellent overview of the dismal state of the 'celebration' of the Mass. Cardinal Dolan made some sort of statement last week, who knew? Personally, I was amazed at how the effort to introduce new formulations and awkward responses to invocations so vastly exceeded any effort to fight against and oppose those who openly advance and promote abortion,encourage perversion and seek to destroy marriage as a sacrament.
I support your suggestions, I just think the hierarchy are heavily invested in form over substance in what they so avidly promote and argue.
PJ| 11.21.12 @ 8:49AM
You think we're having problems; actually our problems are minscule compared to the rest of the world. As an example read about the state of the Catholic Church in England & Ireland.
There's a reason why the pope wants the American bishops & laity to take a leading role in the evangelization effort for this Year of the Faith!
Stuart Koehl| 11.21.12 @ 9:14AM
Lisa, there IS a Catholic Church--indeed, many Catholic Churches, where a traditional Liturgy is celebrated, and where ancient fasting disciplines is regularly observed.
These are the twenty-two "Eastern Catholic Churches", formed by members of Eastern Orthodox Christians who reentered communion with the Church of Rome between the 16th and 19th centuries.
As a member of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, I will speak of our practices and disciplines as an example.
We celebrate our liturgy according to the Byzantine or Constantinopolitan rite used by the Eastern Orthodox Churches. There are two distinct "Divine Liturgies"--that of St. John Chrysostom (used on most days) and that of St. Basil the Great (used during the six Sundays of Lent, and several other feast days throughout the year).
All of these have roots going back to the fourth century, and reached their present form in the 13th century. We retain a number of ancient practices including exclusive use of a cappella singing, and standing as the default posture on Sunday.
In addition to the Divine Liturgy, the Liturgy of the Hours is also celebrated as communal services, most especially Vespers and Matins. In Slavic Churches, Vespers and Matins for Sunday are combined into an "All Night Vigil" that precedes the Sunday Divine Liturgy. Other Churches celebrate Matins just before the Divine Liturgy; the two combined services tend to last about three hours--and people stand through most of it.
Stuart Koehl| 11.21.12 @ 9:15AM
As regards fasting, during the week it is normal to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. Fasting consists of abstinence from meat, fish, eggs, dairy products, wine and oil. There are four major fast periods throughout the year. Presently, we are in the Nativity Fast, which lasts from 15 November through 24 December. In the Spring, there are the six weeks of Lent (plus an additional seven days for Great and Holy Week). In June, there is the Apostle's Fast, lasting from the second Sunday after Pentecost to the Feast of Sts. Peter and Paul (29 June), and finally, the Dormition Fast, lasting from 1-15 August.
One who observes these fasts in his fullness finds himself eating Vegan about 180 days of the year. In addition, there is a Eucharistic fast that begins at midnight the night before one receives Communion.
Stuart Koehl| 11.21.12 @ 9:15AM
Confession before Communion is also encouraged though not mandatory if one has not committed a major sin and has received the Eucharist for the last three Sundays (insofar as reception of the Eucharist is FOR the remission of sins).
Not that none of this is enforced juridically. It is not a mortal sin to forget to fast on a particular day, and the fast can be adjusted according to one's particular state of spiritual development, as determined by one's spiritual father. The purpose of fasting is not atonement for sins, but to gain mastery over the disordered passions, so that we might grow in Christ, and as spiritual preparation for the great feasts of the Church.
Be assured that, though we represent but 1% of Catholics around the world, we are and remain truly Catholic, and that our dedication to our authentic Tradition remains strong and unbroken, and can serve as an example to our Latin brethren.
Kingofthenet| 11.21.12 @ 9:52AM
Maybe instead of conducting Mass in a language they don't understand, Catholics can become Pentecostal and speak in languages NOBODY understands.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 11.21.12 @ 12:14PM
Your majesty:
Instead of insulting two religions with one comment, I challenge you to go to devout Muslims and defame their religion. Might I suggest you draw a picture of the prophet, or even better, produce a film (with a trailer on the internet) that mocks their Innocence?
Mnestheus| 11.21.12 @ 10:53PM
Rudolph Valentino did so with impunity nearly a century ago, abetted by a stockbroker tyrned studio boss named Kennedy.
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:02AM
If he does, he'd better be ready to have Attorney General Eric Holder show up at his house, pull his civil and criminal record, and if he has an overdue library book he'll be put in the slam next to Bacile (the producer of The Innocence of Muslims, who was jailed for using the Internet in violation of his probation). The "professor of constitutional law" has shown nothing but contempt for the Constitution when it's inconvenient to his political aims - or disrespectful of the Prophet of Islam. He may not BE a Muslim but he sure does their work for them.
Occam's Tool| 11.21.12 @ 2:30PM
A Brave man is he who insults religions that will not kill him for blasphemy. I note that he supports terrorists all the time though. Might I suggest Knave of the Net instead of King? Same initials.
Petronius| 11.21.12 @ 7:02PM
What would the United States Government do if the Holy See declared Liberalism a Religion, and Catholics who adhere to that belief system Heretics and Mortal violators against the 1st Commandment?
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:08AM
We've seen that, Petronius. In practice, since the Benghazi fiasco, the US Government has declared Islam a protected religion and prosecuted at least one person who dared to insult it selectively - digging up a probation violation so minor and inoffensive it escaped notice until the Justice Department turned his life upside down for producing a lousy YouTube film - playing along with the fiction that somehow Americans provoked the very meticulously planned assault on our diplomats in Libya for a reason I hope is examined in full by Congress.
Derek Leaberry| 11.21.12 @ 9:54AM
I attend St. Athanasius in Vienna, VA where only the true Mass, the Latin Mass, is offered. The ladies wear veils and modest dresses and skirts and the gentlemen wear suits and ties. Mini-skirts, women in pants, or men in jeans or shorts are not seen. There is no half-Mass handshake like at the Pope Paul clown Mass that most Catholics attend. There are no Eucharistic ministers or girl altarboys. The Eucharist is presented by a priest onto the tongue of the men and women of the parish. The children are many, the size of most families are large at St. Athanasius unlike the small, birth-controlled families that attend the Novus Ordo. The choir at St. Athanasius is brilliant, touched by God.
I can not speak for the rest of St. Athanasius parish but I do not expect to be rejoined to Rome any time soon as Rome left the church and not the reverse. Most of the church bureaucracy desperately hates the Latin Mass. Pope Benedict XVI, considered a "conservative", does not support tradition and has done little to alter the false Novus Ordo Mass. He has done nothing about girl altarboys, Eucharistic minsters, women at the altar or communion in the hand. The Latin Mass will live on but outside of the current regime in Rome. The Latin Mass will be restored but certainly not in my lifetime.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 8:46AM
I love when "Traditionalist" Roman Catholics who know nothing of their own Tradition latch onto an agglomeration of medieval innovations and abuses as representing "the only true Mass". Actually, even before Vatican II, there were many Masses in the Latin Church--not just Tridentine, but also Ambrosian, Mozerabic, Dominican, Benedictine, etc. Go back one hundred and fifty years, and you could still find the Gallic Mass being used in France.
I would suggest that Derek hie himself off the St. Catherine of Siena in Great Falls, where he can find the Novus Ordo celebrated properly--and even in Latin. It might be an eye-opener for him. In the interim, I know where he take some good classes in Latin liturgical history.
Daniel| 11.21.12 @ 9:59AM
Speaking only for myself and nobody else, I have found that the most annoying part of the "new" mass (dear God, I am old) isn't the Singing Nun folk music, or the overt leftist pap that passes for a sermon, but rather the part where everyone "gives a sign of peace" and shakes hands with every Tom, Dick and Harry in the immediate vicinity. Please, please, please Holy Father....tell the Bishops to stop this nonsense! Thank you.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 11.21.12 @ 12:19PM
I could do without what you describe, but the musical liturgy that includes all of those hymns written in the 1970s is what truly annoys me.
irish19| 11.22.12 @ 12:55PM
Now that is really the one part I like. The music sucks. The sermon will depend on the parish and priest giving it.
Kingofthenet| 11.21.12 @ 10:12AM
I wonder how many "Fish Meals' for the Poor that HUGE Gold Cross could buy?
LisaFab| 11.21.12 @ 10:56AM
Judas asked the same question.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 11.21.12 @ 12:17PM
If I recall correctly, the answer for Judas translated to 30 pieces of silver buys a cemetery for the unloved and forgotten dead. Every time King of the Net posts, he reveals that he is likely to be in the all of the above category.
JimH| 11.21.12 @ 11:00AM
Less than the real estate occupied by a mega church.
CJW| 11.21.12 @ 12:19PM
How many fish meals did your heros Obama and Laughing Boy Biden personally buy for the poor?
Moe Blotz| 11.21.12 @ 8:25PM
How many fish did Jesus divide among the crowd at Sermon on the Mount? He had a few loaves to work with as well.
soljerblue| 11.22.12 @ 10:10PM
Tell us, O' 'King', how many fish meals for the poor have YOU purchased recently?
spike59| 11.23.12 @ 6:52AM
queenofthenuts doesn't do that; she figures it's the gumbint's responsibility to take what you might provide others from your own pocket and redistribute it to loyal Democrats
spike59| 11.23.12 @ 6:50AM
i wonder how many "meals for the poor" one of Michelle Obama's vacations coud buy?
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:17AM
McDonald's has a Friday promotion in which their Filet-O-Fish sandwich goes for $1.49 (http://slickdeals.net/f/3992592-McDonald-s-Filet-O-Fish-1-49-Fridays)
Michelle Obama's Spanish vacation jaunt, indulged in as the unemployment rate here in los Estados Unidos hit ten percent, cost those of us still earning enough to pay Federal income tax $467,585, so we have some hard numbers to work with - the poor could have had 313,815 fish sandwiches if she'd just spent that time here in the States while her hubby was telling us how badly they'd been screwed by Bush 2.
Petronius| 11.21.12 @ 11:12AM
Sorry Your Holiness
Reviving the ember laws won't cut it. The Curia and all clergy must quit fowling the nest. 1 No more racketeering. Cardinal Rigali got his red hat by milking and sending $20 million to Rome while Archbishop of St. Louis. 2 Ditto and double on clerical hypocrisy. 3 Get rid of the lefties, perverts, and weenies in Holy Orders. If the Church is to survive it must be run by Priests and Nuns of who can prepare the young of the laity for the struggle we are now engaged in with Absolute Evil inflicted upon us all by our Government. The arbitrary gratuitous egotistical abuse of authority which drove so many Catholics out, myself included must be addressed and remedied. 4 Parish councils must be transparent, open, and honest. Most are run like private clubs where favorites are granted patches of turf. Church politics may no longer be of a type like the Borgias, but it's still as corrupt as the mundane world. One can pine for the Latin Vulgate, incense, plainchant, and the glorious tones of Gabrieli and Palestrina, but restoration of the 1958 Baltimore Catechism along with keeping and maintaining Our vows has to come first.
rlranger907| 11.21.12 @ 11:52AM
As a former Roman Catholic who still regards the Roman Church with love, may I suggest that a return to practices of an idealized past is unlikely to renew the Church. I'm not making an argument for much of what has come in the past 40 years - starting with the tragic dumbing-down of Roman Catholic liturgical music or the translations used in so many places that rob scripture of its dignity. But the power of faith comes from an encounter with the Lord, and not through little rituals of habit like Friday abstinence. The Roman Catholic church has a vast array of means to offer people the opportunity to experience the divine through sacrament, worship, prayer and word - and through emphasis on community in practice, like Cursillo or home group ministries. That's where the liveliness of any Christian tradition comes from, and Catholic parishes that emphasize these grow and prosper. It's about Jesus, not about microwaved frozen fish sticks. And anyone who has read Pope Benedict's writings will understand that he gets this - and preaches it.
Richard Ranger
Occam's Tool| 11.21.12 @ 2:31PM
One of these days there will be less emphasis on "Social Justice" and more emphasis on "Soul Searching."
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.21.12 @ 3:32PM
One cannot be a Roman Catholic and disregard the Church's teaching on Social Justice.
Petronius| 11.21.12 @ 6:56PM
Those bishops who advocate "social justice" are mostly in favor of expropriation and extortion. Christ never did those things.
irish19| 11.22.12 @ 12:57PM
Petronius,
Bingo!
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 4:26AM
Benedict is in favor of "social justice" as well. Does that mean the Pope is an extortionist.
Petronius| 11.23.12 @ 11:20AM
We now know that you're in favor of extortion.
His Holiness is Not market savvy. And those who despise the Market are well aware they have No value in it. No knowledge+no skillset+No Employment.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 2:26PM
So according to you I should be a slave. Maybe according to you the Chinese capitalist model is best. Maybe I should be working 16 hours a day in a factory for a dollar an hour (if that) and a bowl of rice. That sounds very Christian to me. It amazes me the hypocrisy of some self proclaimed "conservative" Catholics who say they hold the church and tradition in high regard but wish to completely disregard its social teachings and its Just War Doctrine. I'm sure some German Catholics in the late 1930's to mid 1940's made the same compromise for the "Fatherland".
Petronius| 11.24.12 @ 3:39PM
No. You should Grow Up and face Reality. If a person is Employed, the employer has the confidence and trust in him or her to do what is required, and compensated under mutual agreement.
Don't dare mention German history. My mother and grandmother worked the garment industry in the 30's, lost their jobs often, and went hungry to make room for refugees of the 3rd Reich. Totalitarian authority is always a lock on those who can't handle Freedom because they don't know how to deal with it, whether it's the Kaiser, the Fuhrer, or the Greenies of the EU who are really Reds. And the desire for it is reflected in their ignorance, indolence, incompetence, and downright infantile attitudes.
God didn't give all the same abilities or ambitions. Most of us fail because our desires outweigh both. But refusal to compete is Not the problem of business people who do the hiring. And nobody is obliged to subsidize your deficiencies. The days of the minimal pursuit of the mindless occupation for inflated wages are Gone.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.24.12 @ 7:24PM
I have never had a problem doing what was asked for me by my employer because as I've stated before my employer is loyal to our collective bargaining agreement and thus I am loyal to my employer. Isn't that a novel idea. The employer takes care of its employees and in return the employee busts his or her ass for the company. I have always done what was asked of me and done my best to do it in the most professional manner and customer service is my forte. I have no problem making money for people who will give me a fair piece of the pie.
Petronius| 11.25.12 @ 9:53AM
And does your boss wipe your face when you drool?
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:35AM
Money talks, bullshit walks. A Democrat, Bill Clinton, gave China Most Favored Nation trading status despite an already entrenched pattern of predatory trade and currency valuation, the use of prison labor, repeated instances in which toxic and substandard merchandise was sold to Americans by Chinese concerns and clear evidence that the Chinese had procured the USA's most highly-classified nuclear weapons design - and that their Second Artillery (the Chinese equivalent to our Strategic Command) has over two thousand nuclear-tipped missiles purchased with the trade they were already doing with us and the rest of the world.
Another Democrat, Barack Obama, has allowed China to persist in their predatory trade, allowing the Chinese to increase their arsenal of nuclear-armed missiles to over 3,000 - while reducing our own arsenal to a total of 851 delivery systems (missiles and bombers) carrying 2,200 warheads).
With that arsenal we have to defend not only against China, but Russia, whose general staff have made direct threats against the US homeland with their nuclear arsenal; depending on whose intelligence you believe, we ought to be targeting Iran and North Korea to defend against their nuclear arsenals.
spike59| 11.23.12 @ 6:59AM
however, apparently one CAN be a Roman Catholic (pelosi, kerry, biden, the cuomos, the kennedys, sibelius, giuliani...)and disregard the Church's teaching on abortion, right?
C. Vernon Crisler | 11.23.12 @ 11:39AM
I think this is the problem with all these attempts to return to a more ecclesial tradition. What good does it do to serve up burnt offerings while neglecting the weightier things of the law? Before anyone can take the Roman denomination seriously, they need to clean out all the liberals from the clergy and excommunicate all those who are undermining the denominations moral teachings. Until that is done, returning to a Latin mass is about as useful as putting a dress on a dog.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 2:22PM
You're right Spike and the Church should do its job and excommunicate them.
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:46AM
And one can be a member of the Church of Christ and rave wildly from the pulpit, screaming "God DAMN America," and indulging in racist rhetoric for over twelve years - and you can belong to the congregation in which that happens for a decade and still be elected President of the United States.
You can be a Baptist and a sexual predator who dips cigars into the genitals of his Presidential interns in the Oval Office (Oval Orifice?) and sends armed state troopers to bring women to his hotel room for sexual play, and has credibly been accused of rape at least once.
And you can be a Disciple of Christ and escalate the Vietnam War to the point that over 50,000 young American men died in it, be re-elected by accusing your opponent of being a dangerous nuclear war-monger while expanding the American nuclear arsenal to unprecedented size and deployment (it required Richard Nixon to reduce both the US nuclear arsenal and our role in Vietnam).
So what's your point? The world is FULL of people who don't live up to the ideals of the faith they profess. There's no logical reason at all to single out Roman Catholics - for that, you just need some good old fashioned hate.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.21.12 @ 3:30PM
I used to attend a Tridentine Latin Mass here in the San Francisco Bay Area and it was in communion with Rome. I agree that getting rid of the Latin Mass and the Meatless Fridays definitely hurt the Catholic Church and those things should definitely be reinstated. I got tired of waiting for a return to Roman Catholic orthodoxy and so I became Russian Orthodox.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 6:18AM
Nothing stops the Latin Church from celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin. Vatican II instructed that the vernacular was to be allowed, not that Latin was to be banned. Latin remains the normative liturgical language of the Church of Rome.
However, it is foolish to say that a reversion to Latin will save the Latin Church. Rather, a return to the Tradition of the Latin Church is in order, especially a restoration of the ascetic discipline now so sorely lacking: a return to strict fasting in Lent and Advent, of the midnight Eucharistic fast, and of the rule of prayer and almsgiving, are all needed to place Latin Catholicism back on an even keel.
Regarding liturgical reform, the Tridentine Mass cannot be made consistent with Sacrsanctum concilium, and it is foolish to try. Instead, try celebrating the Novus Ordo according to the proper rubrics, with the priest facing east, using a vernacular translation that is accurate and beautiful, in contrast to the appalling banality of even the new ICEL version. And finally, ditch the musical instruments and badly composed contemporary hymns in favor of Gregorian chants set in English, so that the entire Mass can be celebrated as a sung dialogue between the priest and the people.
Then, and only then, will the objectives of Sacrosanctum concilium be accomplished.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.26.12 @ 9:58PM
When I was Roman Catholic I was a regular at St. Margaret Mary's in Oakland which is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and part of the Oakland, CA diocese. There the Tridentine Mass is still celebrated daily as is a Novus Ordo Mass.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 10:29PM
That may be true, but has nothing to do with the price of beans. There are a number of aspects of the Tridentine Mass that are just not good liturgy, and which would have scandalized the Fathers of both the West and the East. And there is no way to fix those defects, which is why a new liturgy was required. Unfortunately, instead of going back to the Old Roman Rite as a starting point, the experts of the Vatican II liturgical commission decided to work with a fairly blank piece of paper. Still, theirs was a workmanlike effort, with only a few defects that need fixing (the proliferation of Eucharistic Prayers uncoupled from the liturgical calendar being the most notable). The most visible abuses remain just that--abuses. Nothing says the celebrant should face the people (the rubrics in Latin assume he's facing east); nothing says insipid contemporary music need be used; nothing requires a banal and inaccurate vernacular translation, or the elimination of Latin. All that was done by hierarchs who had no real interest in liturgy before the Council, and just as much afterwards.
Mnestheus| 11.21.12 @ 10:50PM
Where does Fabrizion stand on the liturgical validity of Twinkies as communion hosts?
The jobs of thousands of pious members of the baking trades are at stake.
KyMouse| 11.22.12 @ 10:22AM
Several weeks ago, I worked the free-literature table at a pro-life conference. One of the speakers, who was Catholic, brought over a stack of pro-life brochures for me to add to our display.
He said, "Hand these out, and you'll go to heaven."
I answered, "I'm trusting Jesus for that."
He said nothing, and walked away.
A few minutes later, a woman came over to chat, and pulled something out of her wallet.
"Here's a 'miraculous medal' for you," she said. "It's been blessed."
I answered, "Thanks, but I get all my blessings directly from God." She blinked a few times, then put it back in her wallet.
Those two brief encounters say so much about the differences between me and my Catholic colleagues. Jesus paid for every single one of my sins on the cross, and whatever good deeds I do are to express my thanks to Him, not to earn forgiveness. He paid my debt in full with His one-time sacrifice on the cross.
Mary was a wonderful woman, but the Bible says nothing about her being Queen of Heaven or able to obtain God's graces for me. I obtain them directly, through faith in Jesus. No aluminum medal, no matter how "blessed," can do what Jesus can do.
Avoid meat on Fridays if you want, and conduct your worship services in a language most people don't understand any more (I do understand Latin, by the way).
But I don't need any "miraculous" medals, or deeds to try to earn my way into Heaven. I've got Jesus, and He's all I'll ever need.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 4:21AM
That reminds me of a joke about a Catholic dying and going to heaven and as he's walking with God by the Evangelical section God asks him to please be quiet because the Evangelicals think they're the only ones there.
I thank God that I belong to the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and all though I am no longer Roman Catholic I still regard Roman Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ. As for Evangelicals I will continue to pray that they will abandon their feel good Christianity and return to the traditional Christianity that can be found in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church. Of course as an Orthodox I am biased towards Orthodoxy, but traditional Roman Catholicism is also thoroughly Christian.
C. Vernon Crisler | 11.23.12 @ 11:45AM
The joke in your first paragraph contradicts your second paragraph. The first one says evangelicals think they're the only ones in heaven. The second says Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodoxers think they are the only ones in heaven. BTW, I doubt Roman Catholics regard you as being part of the "true" Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 2:20PM
The Orthodox view is that it is up to God and God alone who goes to Paradise and who does not. I can't speak to what the Roman Catholic view is and being Eastern Orthodox I am fully aware that we consider the Roman Church as falling into heresy and they view us as heretics as well.
What I was alluding to is the fact that Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians both hold the sacraments that Christ himself instituted in high regard.
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 6:19AM
Such is also the Catholic view.
Ginger| 11.22.12 @ 1:45PM
The only change I wish they would make is to allow folks who are divorced and remarried to receive communion. My husband and I have been married for 35 years and he cannot receive communion because of a short first marriage that was not annulled. It is ridiculous to force annulment when some priests were molesting boys. Just shear hypocrisy.
Dimitry_Aleksandrovich| 11.23.12 @ 4:25AM
Maybe because there are a few rotten priests the RCC should let women be priests, or homosexuals marry, or let snake handlers dance around the altar of the church with rattlers. Your husband should try to get his first marriage annulled. I commend the RCC for being strictly against divorce. Divorce is selfishness and it has done more to destroy Western society than almost any other thing I can think of.
spike59| 11.23.12 @ 7:01AM
"Liberalism is selfishness and it has done more to destroy Western society than almost any other thing I can think of."
------------------------------
there-fixed it for ya
Stuart Koehl| 11.26.12 @ 6:21AM
On the other hand, the Orthodox approach recognizes both the sinfulness of divorce and the need to allow a second chance for those whose marriages have broken down for no fault of their own. Hence the existence of the non-sacramental Rite of Remarriage, which also applies to those who have been widowed, since the Eastern Churches believe that marriage is a sacrament whose bond perdures beyond death.
PJ| 11.23.12 @ 9:07AM
Sorry to hear about your plight. If you too are a Catholic you should also not not be receiving Holy Communion. A divorced person with no annulment & his/her new spouse are committing a sacrilege every time they receive Holy Communion.
Once a male-female couple receives the sacrament of marriage, they can not just say "Sorry, but we changed our minds" to God who freely gave this sacrament to you.
That said, if the recipients did not freely accept this sacrament, but maybe were coerced, were immature, or some other legit reason then the sacrament of marriage would be considered invalid. Proccedings for an annualment would then be in order after the civil divorce has been finalized. One then goes to the Tribunal office of the diocese not to the parish priest for an annulment.
Sorry to hear about your plight but it can be corrected.
Mnestheus| 11.23.12 @ 9:40AM
It would be gratifying were government to ban liberals from playing the Holy Family in town hall nativity scenes , but scarcely constitutional, and on the rebound they might insist on the substitution of quiche and chardonnay for bread and wine at the inaugural ball communion.
Mark30339| 11.23.12 @ 10:29AM
I love my Catholic faith, and like the author and so many commenters, I struggle with unity. The gospels show a Jesus of Nazareth having very similar struggles with the learned leaders of his faith community. I struggle with all the "fixers" who find fault with me and my fellow believers who do not display sufficient piety, sufficient resistance to Vatican II, sufficient submission to their nostalgic latin remedies, and sufficient contempt for other catholics who are too liberal, too occasional, too lapsed, too irreverent, too focused on social justice, or just too stupid to see how right the fixers are. Am I the only one alarmed by how little heart there is in this thread, and how toxic the cerebral responses become as a result?
Petronius| 11.24.12 @ 4:50PM
Idealism, altruism, and the Copybook Headings don't mix. Ditto image and substance. The nut is that so many want others to satisfy their expectations because they conflate that with the Doctrine of Free Will. And because we cannot prevent the vicissitudes, rigors of life, and behavior of others from disturbing personal tranquility or interfering with prosperity and pleasures, we must endure tantrums from the underprivileged culminating in civil unrest, extortion, law suits, and street violence until the rioters are paid danegeld to go away for a while. A Privilege is Not a Right. And all who cry and carry on because that is True, need a remedial lesson the hard way from Sister Mary Velociraptor wielding her stainless steel combat yardstick. There is a great disconnect here of both understanding and acceptance. Neither the world nor the Church have been or ever will be as we would have them. And there is no single mold where we all fit.
Vance P. Frickey| 11.25.12 @ 3:58AM
My wife attends a Roman Catholic parish. I do not. We respect each other's religious stances. It's part of being Americans. I can't speak to what Roman Catholics need to do, having severed my connection with that Church in the mid-1970s.
I do remember growing up in the Roman Catholic Church during the transition to Vatican II, and my first Missal being for the Latin Mass. The changes in the Mass didn't make the Church better or worse. Just slightly different. The important part of the Church's mission was, and is, teaching the Gospel and supporting the faithful in the Christian walk.
Craigpurcell| 11.27.12 @ 3:27AM
What of meaning, the connectedness of life to moral underpinnings, values, etc... It seems to me the Church is dodging these animating social issues at the local level so as not to offend.